I would like your opinion on these two articles.
Bea
Hi,
I'm feeling a bit insecure these days, worrying about my children's future (I know I have time, they are only 5 and 2 years old) and I would like to know what people on this list think of these two articles.
The first one is about the desirability of a college degree:
http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/89675/bad-job-market-media-wrong-college-degree?page=0,0
The second one is about the necessity of training and discipline in the arts:
http://savageminds.org/2011/06/19/the-conservatory-in-creativity-or-ken-robinson-vs-black-swan/
Bea
I'm feeling a bit insecure these days, worrying about my children's future (I know I have time, they are only 5 and 2 years old) and I would like to know what people on this list think of these two articles.
The first one is about the desirability of a college degree:
http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/89675/bad-job-market-media-wrong-college-degree?page=0,0
The second one is about the necessity of training and discipline in the arts:
http://savageminds.org/2011/06/19/the-conservatory-in-creativity-or-ken-robinson-vs-black-swan/
Bea
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:48 PM, Bea wrote:
great artists. So, therefore, put everyone through rigorous training
and you'll get great artists. And scientists. And engineers. And
sports greats.
It's not the training that creates greatness, it's the internal need
to suck more and more of that in. That's something people are born with.
I remember reading what makes a master at anything is 10,000 hours.
But what makes someone want to put in 10,000 hours? Love. Passionate
interest.
Which is kind of what the first is getting at. It's being assumed that
the 4 years of college gets someone a better job. But it's the drive
to go through what was once a fairly rigorous program that indicates
that someone has what it takes to perform at a job that is rigorous
enough to deserve a higher salary. But with so many kids going onto
college so they can get that piece of paper, it isn't the sorting
system it once was. And the piece of paper isn't meaning the same as
it once did.
Look at your kids. Feed what they're wanting to suck in. That's really
all that counts.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The second one is about the necessity of training and discipline inThe problem is that people get the idea that the training creates
> the arts:
great artists. So, therefore, put everyone through rigorous training
and you'll get great artists. And scientists. And engineers. And
sports greats.
It's not the training that creates greatness, it's the internal need
to suck more and more of that in. That's something people are born with.
I remember reading what makes a master at anything is 10,000 hours.
But what makes someone want to put in 10,000 hours? Love. Passionate
interest.
Which is kind of what the first is getting at. It's being assumed that
the 4 years of college gets someone a better job. But it's the drive
to go through what was once a fairly rigorous program that indicates
that someone has what it takes to perform at a job that is rigorous
enough to deserve a higher salary. But with so many kids going onto
college so they can get that piece of paper, it isn't the sorting
system it once was. And the piece of paper isn't meaning the same as
it once did.
Look at your kids. Feed what they're wanting to suck in. That's really
all that counts.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Baba
HI, I am new here and this is my first post. I am a mother of 3 beautiful boys who have always been homeschooled and I have tried various styles and curriculum and always turn back to unschooling and have decided to stick with unschooling.
Now that I finished my little intro...during my journey to unschooling, these subjects below are partially the reasons why I have chosen unschooling. Who knows what our world will be like by the time our young children grow up, but what I do know is that because of unschooling my children are going to know how to think for themselves, will go after their dreams, strengths and talents. From most unschooling stories that I have read about people who now have adult children, they create their own ways of making money and don't depend on someone hiring them. I don't trust in our government or economy, but I do trust in my children.
It is easy to let our economic situation worry us, but the best we can do is to learn and teach our children survival skills and basic living skills along with their self-led schooling.
I don't know if this helps anyone else, but it is how I have been dealing with my concerns about my kids' future.
Alba
Now that I finished my little intro...during my journey to unschooling, these subjects below are partially the reasons why I have chosen unschooling. Who knows what our world will be like by the time our young children grow up, but what I do know is that because of unschooling my children are going to know how to think for themselves, will go after their dreams, strengths and talents. From most unschooling stories that I have read about people who now have adult children, they create their own ways of making money and don't depend on someone hiring them. I don't trust in our government or economy, but I do trust in my children.
It is easy to let our economic situation worry us, but the best we can do is to learn and teach our children survival skills and basic living skills along with their self-led schooling.
I don't know if this helps anyone else, but it is how I have been dealing with my concerns about my kids' future.
Alba
--- In [email protected], "Bea" <beatrice.mantovani@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm feeling a bit insecure these days, worrying about my children's future (I know I have time, they are only 5 and 2 years old) and I would like to know what people on this list think of these two articles.
>
>
> The first one is about the desirability of a college degree:
>
> http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/89675/bad-job-market-media-wrong-college-degree?page=0,0
>
> The second one is about the necessity of training and discipline in the arts:
>
> http://savageminds.org/2011/06/19/the-conservatory-in-creativity-or-ken-robinson-vs-black-swan/
>
>
>
> Bea
>
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Nobody is saying that discipline and training are evil--just that it should
be based on interest, inclination and consent. Nobody is medicated to
behave a certain way. That is the gist of the creativity arguments that Ken
Robinson is making. Consent and respect for different skills, interests and
passions.
It is the one size fits all idea of creating cookie cutter people that he
takes issue with in his speech. Nobody is saying that my chubby eight year
old son should study ballet or forcing him on medication to do so--but were
he in public school he better sit still, write tests and behave as expected
of eight year olds. Or it is time to medicate him to sit still and focus
and pass those tests.
The argument is disingenuous, because if one wants to study ballet one
follows the rules--if one wants to dance one dances, if one wants to play
music one plays music, if one wants to make people laugh one figures out
what is funny. Choice. Talent. Acceptance. There are in Canada ways to
go to law school as a mature student by writing an exam and then getting in.
However, once in a program the student follows the rules to graduate and
then to practice law one follows rules. There are rules to professions.
Nobody arbitrarily forces someone into law school. Nobody hopefully forces
anyone to dance ballet.
Would you pay a dentist who could not fix teeth or doctor with no knowledge
of medicine or firefighter who could not put out fires safely? The point is
that nobody succeeds if you force an artist to study medicine, a person
interested in woodworking to dance or a person with no interest in art to
paint. Allowing creative expression means allowing someone choice and
consenting to follow their passions.
Marina
be based on interest, inclination and consent. Nobody is medicated to
behave a certain way. That is the gist of the creativity arguments that Ken
Robinson is making. Consent and respect for different skills, interests and
passions.
It is the one size fits all idea of creating cookie cutter people that he
takes issue with in his speech. Nobody is saying that my chubby eight year
old son should study ballet or forcing him on medication to do so--but were
he in public school he better sit still, write tests and behave as expected
of eight year olds. Or it is time to medicate him to sit still and focus
and pass those tests.
The argument is disingenuous, because if one wants to study ballet one
follows the rules--if one wants to dance one dances, if one wants to play
music one plays music, if one wants to make people laugh one figures out
what is funny. Choice. Talent. Acceptance. There are in Canada ways to
go to law school as a mature student by writing an exam and then getting in.
However, once in a program the student follows the rules to graduate and
then to practice law one follows rules. There are rules to professions.
Nobody arbitrarily forces someone into law school. Nobody hopefully forces
anyone to dance ballet.
Would you pay a dentist who could not fix teeth or doctor with no knowledge
of medicine or firefighter who could not put out fires safely? The point is
that nobody succeeds if you force an artist to study medicine, a person
interested in woodworking to dance or a person with no interest in art to
paint. Allowing creative expression means allowing someone choice and
consenting to follow their passions.
Marina
On 20 June 2011 17:48, Bea <beatrice.mantovani@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm feeling a bit insecure these days, worrying about my children's future
> (I know I have time, they are only 5 and 2 years old) and I would like to
> know what people on this list think of these two articles.
>
> The first one is about the desirability of a college degree:
>
>
> http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/89675/bad-job-market-media-wrong-college-degree?page=0,0
>
> The second one is about the necessity of training and discipline in the
> arts:
>
>
> http://savageminds.org/2011/06/19/the-conservatory-in-creativity-or-ken-robinson-vs-black-swan/
>
> Bea
>
>
>
--
"Insomnia is almost an oasis in which those who have to think or suffer
darkly take refuge." --Colette--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
The second one is interesting. The author really wants to disagree with Sir Ken Robinson. In the end, he comes to the same conclusion, that education should have MORE arts and creativity than it currently does. His argument is that Sir Ken Robinson has missed the boat by not seeing that arts requires a lot of effort and training. I've listened to everything I can by Sir Ken Robinson and not one single time has he said otherwise, his point is still the same, schools kill creativity and that kids need more of that, not less. HOW a person gets that, he never says, that I know of.
The best art education I got was from my father. Art in school was mostly a joke. I took it seriously but not many others did. I still believe that I ONLY learned art from my father because I had a desire and inclination in that direction. My sister really didn't. I don't remember my dad sitting down with her and showing her how to paint or draw. He did that with me because I was persistent and always there asking and doing.
It's the same thing with my own kids. Chamille has learned to sew, not because I sat her down and showed her but because she had an interest and she knew to ask me. If you raise children in a rich life, full of interesting things to draw upon, they will find things that interest them and they will pursue them.
The other article is similar in that, it's the same idea, if kids want to pursue something they will. If they need college to do it, they will. College degrees do have a diminishing value as more people have them. I imagine that specific degrees might have more value than others based on where there are jobs. The value is really more about what a person chooses to do with it. It's the same for EVERY thing.
Knowing that my kids could choose college if they want to, I'd prefer that they know what they want before jumping into it. The college drop out rate is about half.
Unschooled kids get a valuable education in that regard! I've never met an unschooled kid that didn't know what they liked to do or have an idea of what they'd like to do. Kids that finish high school are often very ambivalent, or they believe, as I did, that college was the logical next step and so do it for that reason. Just like everything else in my kid's lives so far, if they choose to go to college, they will use it for what they need it for, and that will be its own value.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The best art education I got was from my father. Art in school was mostly a joke. I took it seriously but not many others did. I still believe that I ONLY learned art from my father because I had a desire and inclination in that direction. My sister really didn't. I don't remember my dad sitting down with her and showing her how to paint or draw. He did that with me because I was persistent and always there asking and doing.
It's the same thing with my own kids. Chamille has learned to sew, not because I sat her down and showed her but because she had an interest and she knew to ask me. If you raise children in a rich life, full of interesting things to draw upon, they will find things that interest them and they will pursue them.
The other article is similar in that, it's the same idea, if kids want to pursue something they will. If they need college to do it, they will. College degrees do have a diminishing value as more people have them. I imagine that specific degrees might have more value than others based on where there are jobs. The value is really more about what a person chooses to do with it. It's the same for EVERY thing.
Knowing that my kids could choose college if they want to, I'd prefer that they know what they want before jumping into it. The college drop out rate is about half.
Unschooled kids get a valuable education in that regard! I've never met an unschooled kid that didn't know what they liked to do or have an idea of what they'd like to do. Kids that finish high school are often very ambivalent, or they believe, as I did, that college was the logical next step and so do it for that reason. Just like everything else in my kid's lives so far, if they choose to go to college, they will use it for what they need it for, and that will be its own value.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Which is kind of what the first is getting at. It's being assumed that
the 4 years of college gets someone a better job. But it's the drive
to go through what was once a fairly rigorous program that indicates
that someone has what it takes to perform at a job that is rigorous
enough to deserve a higher salary.-=-
It's endurance in the face of nonsense, arbitrary rules and frustration that can make someone a good employee, though (especially in companies that know they provide those things in abundance). To work for the state of New Mexico in lots of jobs, one has to have a bachelor's degree to even apply. Doesn't matter what the degree is in; doesn't matter what the grade average. Degree? yes or no.
(not a comment on the article, but a comment on one angle of degree requirement justification)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the 4 years of college gets someone a better job. But it's the drive
to go through what was once a fairly rigorous program that indicates
that someone has what it takes to perform at a job that is rigorous
enough to deserve a higher salary.-=-
It's endurance in the face of nonsense, arbitrary rules and frustration that can make someone a good employee, though (especially in companies that know they provide those things in abundance). To work for the state of New Mexico in lots of jobs, one has to have a bachelor's degree to even apply. Doesn't matter what the degree is in; doesn't matter what the grade average. Degree? yes or no.
(not a comment on the article, but a comment on one angle of degree requirement justification)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Knowing that my kids could choose college if they want to, I'd prefer that they know what they want before jumping into it. The college drop out rate is about half. -=-
And in those cases in which student loans were involved, even dropouts have to pay those back.
And in cases in which student loans were involved and a person graduates and doesn't end up working in the field for which he studied, the loans still have to be paid back.
Forcing a child to go to a university when it involves borrowing large sums of money could be, in some cases, like forcing a child to sign a mortgage or buy a car, and keep paying for it long after the house or car are unusable.
On the other hand, the experiences people have at universities and the friends they make can last a lifetime. Send a child to a "good university" can be buying friends for him, and when that works it can be a good deal. :-)
-=-Unschooled kids get a valuable education in that regard! I've never met an unschooled kid that didn't know what they liked to do or have an idea of what they'd like to do. Kids that finish high school are often very ambivalent, or they believe, as I did, that college was the logical next step and so do it for that reason. Just like everything else in my kid's lives so far, if they choose to go to college, they will use it for what they need it for, and that will be its own value.-=-
I learned a long time ago not to ask my kids or anyone else's what they wanted to be when they grew up. Some kids choose a profession very young and stick with that plan without much thought. It ends up causing them to ignore or avoid things that aren't leading them toward being a doctor (or ballerina or cowboy). When I was little, in the early 1960's, many boys said fireman or doctor. Many girls said teacher or nurse. Schools started trying to provide information about what sorts of jobs existed that kids might not have known about, but that seems never to have caught on in a really practical way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And in those cases in which student loans were involved, even dropouts have to pay those back.
And in cases in which student loans were involved and a person graduates and doesn't end up working in the field for which he studied, the loans still have to be paid back.
Forcing a child to go to a university when it involves borrowing large sums of money could be, in some cases, like forcing a child to sign a mortgage or buy a car, and keep paying for it long after the house or car are unusable.
On the other hand, the experiences people have at universities and the friends they make can last a lifetime. Send a child to a "good university" can be buying friends for him, and when that works it can be a good deal. :-)
-=-Unschooled kids get a valuable education in that regard! I've never met an unschooled kid that didn't know what they liked to do or have an idea of what they'd like to do. Kids that finish high school are often very ambivalent, or they believe, as I did, that college was the logical next step and so do it for that reason. Just like everything else in my kid's lives so far, if they choose to go to college, they will use it for what they need it for, and that will be its own value.-=-
I learned a long time ago not to ask my kids or anyone else's what they wanted to be when they grew up. Some kids choose a profession very young and stick with that plan without much thought. It ends up causing them to ignore or avoid things that aren't leading them toward being a doctor (or ballerina or cowboy). When I was little, in the early 1960's, many boys said fireman or doctor. Many girls said teacher or nurse. Schools started trying to provide information about what sorts of jobs existed that kids might not have known about, but that seems never to have caught on in a really practical way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=HI, I am new here and this is my first post. I am a mother of 3 beautiful boys who have always been homeschooled and I have tried various styles and curriculum and always turn back to unschooling and have decided to stick with unschooling.
Now that I finished my little intro..-=-
I let this post through because it was interesting, but I seriously considered sending it back.
To any and all new members, read on the list a while before posting and read ABOUT the list a while before posting. The intro has links to a few pages pages and everything will go more smoothly if the suggestions at those first two links (for new members, and posting to the list) there are read and considered.
-=- I have tried various styles and curriculum and always turn back to unschooling and have decided to stick with unschooling. .... It is easy to let our economic situation worry us, but the best we can do is to learn and teach our children survival skills and basic living skills along with their self-led schooling.-=-
Between deciding to stick with unschooling and actually becoming an unschooler, there are things that need to change. One is whether one sees learning as "schooling," and another is whether we think we "teach" our children.
Those who insist it's "just semantics" will not become unschoolers.
Those who relax and accept that there might be a difference, and then figure out what it is and why it's important, will discover things the others can't even imagine.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now that I finished my little intro..-=-
I let this post through because it was interesting, but I seriously considered sending it back.
To any and all new members, read on the list a while before posting and read ABOUT the list a while before posting. The intro has links to a few pages pages and everything will go more smoothly if the suggestions at those first two links (for new members, and posting to the list) there are read and considered.
-=- I have tried various styles and curriculum and always turn back to unschooling and have decided to stick with unschooling. .... It is easy to let our economic situation worry us, but the best we can do is to learn and teach our children survival skills and basic living skills along with their self-led schooling.-=-
Between deciding to stick with unschooling and actually becoming an unschooler, there are things that need to change. One is whether one sees learning as "schooling," and another is whether we think we "teach" our children.
Those who insist it's "just semantics" will not become unschoolers.
Those who relax and accept that there might be a difference, and then figure out what it is and why it's important, will discover things the others can't even imagine.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
Joyce wrote, about the second article:
---"It's not the training that creates greatness, it's the internal need
to suck more and more of that in. That's something people are born with.
I remember reading what makes a master at anything is 10,000 hours.
But what makes someone want to put in 10,000 hours? Love. Passionate
interest."-------
This is what I see play out before me every day. Living with my daughter Noor, I've come to completely disagree with the author's conclusion that:
~~~"But what that education is what enables creativity is often quite different from what people imagine. It requires more training and discipline, not less. In other words: being socialized into a culture of practice"~~~
This is a huge assumption--first that education actually *enables* creativity, and is it the only thing that does? I think she's saying that it is and second, that one needs to be socialized (trained) to do that which one's art requires (practice).
Every day I see the opposite of this play out in my home. My 7yr daughter is an artist. She spends hours a day drawing, recently on a computer, learning how to use very complex graphic programs: hours on one drawing, layer after layer of more detail, retracing and modifying previous lines, shading, backgrounds, texture.
She went swimming on Sunday, one of her favorite things to do, but she was ready to leave so she could get home to draw. She tore through the door and literally ran to the desk. She had to (had to in a good way <g>) get the thought out (she'd been sketching it in the car); her whole body missed being engaged in the (painful, tedious, disciplined) act of creating images, her mind was hyper focused. I brought her a drink and asked her a question and she looked at me and said, "mom, I need you to leave me alone. I haven't drawn all day and I need to concentrate. Do we have any strawberries?"
If I made her practice her drawing--well it would be a whole other flavor of pie, wouldn't it?
Everywhere we go, Noor sees lines, shadows, light, texture, color, emotion......she is isn't sitting and being trained to see like an artist--she's learning all these things already because she couldn't help not to; it would go against her very nature!
That's the gift an unschooling life offers: the time and support to focus on what truly drives a person. The idea that all the unpleasant, hard work involved with creating/mastering art requires "training" to be "disciplined" to "practice" that thing is completely false when a person freely chooses to follow her passion. Sure, the work may be hard, difficult, tedious, painful....but it is part of the process, part of the joy.
Have you ever really watched a child who loves to draw, draw? Or a child master one level of a difficult computer game after another? It is painstakingly difficult work! She does it, not because she is required to, but because she LOVES to! She is internally driven to.
You may enjoy Dan Pink's TED (the irony isn't lost on me) talk "The Surprising Science of Motivation":
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
Brie
---"It's not the training that creates greatness, it's the internal need
to suck more and more of that in. That's something people are born with.
I remember reading what makes a master at anything is 10,000 hours.
But what makes someone want to put in 10,000 hours? Love. Passionate
interest."-------
This is what I see play out before me every day. Living with my daughter Noor, I've come to completely disagree with the author's conclusion that:
~~~"But what that education is what enables creativity is often quite different from what people imagine. It requires more training and discipline, not less. In other words: being socialized into a culture of practice"~~~
This is a huge assumption--first that education actually *enables* creativity, and is it the only thing that does? I think she's saying that it is and second, that one needs to be socialized (trained) to do that which one's art requires (practice).
Every day I see the opposite of this play out in my home. My 7yr daughter is an artist. She spends hours a day drawing, recently on a computer, learning how to use very complex graphic programs: hours on one drawing, layer after layer of more detail, retracing and modifying previous lines, shading, backgrounds, texture.
She went swimming on Sunday, one of her favorite things to do, but she was ready to leave so she could get home to draw. She tore through the door and literally ran to the desk. She had to (had to in a good way <g>) get the thought out (she'd been sketching it in the car); her whole body missed being engaged in the (painful, tedious, disciplined) act of creating images, her mind was hyper focused. I brought her a drink and asked her a question and she looked at me and said, "mom, I need you to leave me alone. I haven't drawn all day and I need to concentrate. Do we have any strawberries?"
If I made her practice her drawing--well it would be a whole other flavor of pie, wouldn't it?
Everywhere we go, Noor sees lines, shadows, light, texture, color, emotion......she is isn't sitting and being trained to see like an artist--she's learning all these things already because she couldn't help not to; it would go against her very nature!
That's the gift an unschooling life offers: the time and support to focus on what truly drives a person. The idea that all the unpleasant, hard work involved with creating/mastering art requires "training" to be "disciplined" to "practice" that thing is completely false when a person freely chooses to follow her passion. Sure, the work may be hard, difficult, tedious, painful....but it is part of the process, part of the joy.
Have you ever really watched a child who loves to draw, draw? Or a child master one level of a difficult computer game after another? It is painstakingly difficult work! She does it, not because she is required to, but because she LOVES to! She is internally driven to.
You may enjoy Dan Pink's TED (the irony isn't lost on me) talk "The Surprising Science of Motivation":
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
Brie