help with family/sister
nycartgal2003
I just got an email from my sister, and I'm not sure how to respond. I could use some help.
She feels left out of my son's life, he's 4.5. I have been overprotective of him in front of my family when he was younger in reaction to my childhood. I realized it, and I've loosened up and given them an opportunity to form realtionships with him. He is used to a calm environment with lots of yesses in our house. It isn't so at my sister's house.
My niece is almost 8 and constantly being told she can't do things. Last time Logan and I were on our way there, (they live an hour a way), he said he thought that Alison, my sister is mean to Olivia, my neice, whom he adores. He said he does not like Alison, I have certainly not ecnouraged that. I told him that Alison is doing what she thinks is best for Olivia. When we are with them, the kids are told to stop running, stop being noisy, etc. Sometimes he'll play and talk with my sister, but when he hears her yelling or angry with Olivai, he clams up. She does not see the connection, and I don't think it's a good iead to point it out to her.
She did not speak to me for almost a year because she was working through some childhood and adult trauma and blamed me for part of it.
Meryl
The email from my sister:
**It is so obvious how much you love Logan, you are totally there for every need he could possibly have.
Sometimes it seems that you need to be the only one who can have be there for him because that is what you have created. it is very sad that I never got the chance to hold him for more that 30 seconds as a child. I understand that when he cried it was hard but had you let him get passed it, I may have been able to bond with him. it is true that our beliefs on how to parent are somewhat different but I am happy that others are able to love, teach and show affection for Olivia, I would be sad had she missed out on these things. in a way you have not allowed anyone or Logan the chance because it seems for some reason maybe you feel threatened and don't even know it when someone gives advice. it is not always a judgement on that person part. Even when mommy suggested you have someone check his speech you were so quick to say No. Why would you deny him the opportunity to have something that may need correcting? I don't know if it does but neither do you. Life will be very difficult if he only has the chance to feel secure and trust in you and of course Paul. Children need more then just their parents. I wish i could be closer to him but it is very hard. Please don't feel like I am judging you, he is my only nephew and I would like to have a relationship with him. I know he is young but there is no time to start like the present. you are so caring ana nurturing to him but part of being a mom is letting others care and nurture him as well. At this point he does not even allow it because that is all he knows. he is the center of your world understandably as children should be, but you do not need to be the center of his.
I hope this did not come out in a hurtful or critical way . I love you and would love to be able to have a loving relationship with your son.
Love Alison (also a Mom)**
She feels left out of my son's life, he's 4.5. I have been overprotective of him in front of my family when he was younger in reaction to my childhood. I realized it, and I've loosened up and given them an opportunity to form realtionships with him. He is used to a calm environment with lots of yesses in our house. It isn't so at my sister's house.
My niece is almost 8 and constantly being told she can't do things. Last time Logan and I were on our way there, (they live an hour a way), he said he thought that Alison, my sister is mean to Olivia, my neice, whom he adores. He said he does not like Alison, I have certainly not ecnouraged that. I told him that Alison is doing what she thinks is best for Olivia. When we are with them, the kids are told to stop running, stop being noisy, etc. Sometimes he'll play and talk with my sister, but when he hears her yelling or angry with Olivai, he clams up. She does not see the connection, and I don't think it's a good iead to point it out to her.
She did not speak to me for almost a year because she was working through some childhood and adult trauma and blamed me for part of it.
Meryl
The email from my sister:
**It is so obvious how much you love Logan, you are totally there for every need he could possibly have.
Sometimes it seems that you need to be the only one who can have be there for him because that is what you have created. it is very sad that I never got the chance to hold him for more that 30 seconds as a child. I understand that when he cried it was hard but had you let him get passed it, I may have been able to bond with him. it is true that our beliefs on how to parent are somewhat different but I am happy that others are able to love, teach and show affection for Olivia, I would be sad had she missed out on these things. in a way you have not allowed anyone or Logan the chance because it seems for some reason maybe you feel threatened and don't even know it when someone gives advice. it is not always a judgement on that person part. Even when mommy suggested you have someone check his speech you were so quick to say No. Why would you deny him the opportunity to have something that may need correcting? I don't know if it does but neither do you. Life will be very difficult if he only has the chance to feel secure and trust in you and of course Paul. Children need more then just their parents. I wish i could be closer to him but it is very hard. Please don't feel like I am judging you, he is my only nephew and I would like to have a relationship with him. I know he is young but there is no time to start like the present. you are so caring ana nurturing to him but part of being a mom is letting others care and nurture him as well. At this point he does not even allow it because that is all he knows. he is the center of your world understandably as children should be, but you do not need to be the center of his.
I hope this did not come out in a hurtful or critical way . I love you and would love to be able to have a loving relationship with your son.
Love Alison (also a Mom)**
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
So what is she suggesting? Does she think you should force Logan against his will to accept her so he can learn to trust other people ??
IT does not make any sense.
When MD, my son, was little , there were only a couple people that could hold him and it took time for them to get used to this people he saw *everyday*. If he was distressed only mom would do and no one else. Little by little he was OK with close people, of course first his dad, then my mom and his other grandma.
I would have never force him to go with someone so the person could hold him if he did not want to.
That is not how children learn to trust others.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
IT does not make any sense.
When MD, my son, was little , there were only a couple people that could hold him and it took time for them to get used to this people he saw *everyday*. If he was distressed only mom would do and no one else. Little by little he was OK with close people, of course first his dad, then my mom and his other grandma.
I would have never force him to go with someone so the person could hold him if he did not want to.
That is not how children learn to trust others.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Milena
Hi Meryl,
This is tough and I am so new to this philosophy of unschooling so I could be completly off by what I am about to say and would LOVE clarification to make more sense of this philosophy.
It definately feels like your sister is sad about not being able to relate to Logan because of the differing life styles. How opposed are you to offering her suggestions on how she could have more of a relationship with Logan. Would it be too forward to say that Logan is just not used to the yelling and so on? OR maybe have Logan invite her for a visit at your home where auntie and Logan can play one on one. Maybe it would help her see the valueable relationship and connection you have invested.
I would love to hear how this sounds to a homeschooling community.
I have 3 sisters and all of us have different styles. One sister spanks and homeschools in a very traditional not unschooling way. I have the same feelings when we go to visit her.
I can relate to what you are going through....
Milena
This is tough and I am so new to this philosophy of unschooling so I could be completly off by what I am about to say and would LOVE clarification to make more sense of this philosophy.
It definately feels like your sister is sad about not being able to relate to Logan because of the differing life styles. How opposed are you to offering her suggestions on how she could have more of a relationship with Logan. Would it be too forward to say that Logan is just not used to the yelling and so on? OR maybe have Logan invite her for a visit at your home where auntie and Logan can play one on one. Maybe it would help her see the valueable relationship and connection you have invested.
I would love to hear how this sounds to a homeschooling community.
I have 3 sisters and all of us have different styles. One sister spanks and homeschools in a very traditional not unschooling way. I have the same feelings when we go to visit her.
I can relate to what you are going through....
Milena
--- In [email protected], "nycartgal2003" <mranzer@...> wrote:
>
> I just got an email from my sister, and I'm not sure how to respond. I could use some help.
> She feels left out of my son's life, he's 4.5. I have been overprotective of him in front of my family when he was younger in reaction to my childhood. I realized it, and I've loosened up and given them an opportunity to form realtionships with him. He is used to a calm environment with lots of yesses in our house. It isn't so at my sister's house.
> My niece is almost 8 and constantly being told she can't do things. Last time Logan and I were on our way there, (they live an hour a way), he said he thought that Alison, my sister is mean to Olivia, my neice, whom he adores. He said he does not like Alison, I have certainly not ecnouraged that. I told him that Alison is doing what she thinks is best for Olivia. When we are with them, the kids are told to stop running, stop being noisy, etc. Sometimes he'll play and talk with my sister, but when he hears her yelling or angry with Olivai, he clams up. She does not see the connection, and I don't think it's a good iead to point it out to her.
> She did not speak to me for almost a year because she was working through some childhood and adult trauma and blamed me for part of it.
>
> Meryl
>
> The email from my sister:
>
> **It is so obvious how much you love Logan, you are totally there for every need he could possibly have.
> Sometimes it seems that you need to be the only one who can have be there for him because that is what you have created. it is very sad that I never got the chance to hold him for more that 30 seconds as a child. I understand that when he cried it was hard but had you let him get passed it, I may have been able to bond with him. it is true that our beliefs on how to parent are somewhat different but I am happy that others are able to love, teach and show affection for Olivia, I would be sad had she missed out on these things. in a way you have not allowed anyone or Logan the chance because it seems for some reason maybe you feel threatened and don't even know it when someone gives advice. it is not always a judgement on that person part. Even when mommy suggested you have someone check his speech you were so quick to say No. Why would you deny him the opportunity to have something that may need correcting? I don't know if it does but neither do you. Life will be very difficult if he only has the chance to feel secure and trust in you and of course Paul. Children need more then just their parents. I wish i could be closer to him but it is very hard. Please don't feel like I am judging you, he is my only nephew and I would like to have a relationship with him. I know he is young but there is no time to start like the present. you are so caring ana nurturing to him but part of being a mom is letting others care and nurture him as well. At this point he does not even allow it because that is all he knows. he is the center of your world understandably as children should be, but you do not need to be the center of his.
> I hope this did not come out in a hurtful or critical way . I love you and would love to be able to have a loving relationship with your son.
>
> Love Alison (also a Mom)**
>
wtexans
===Last time Logan and I were on our way there, (they live an hour a way), he said he thought that Alison, my sister is mean to Olivia, my neice, whom he adores. He said he does not like Alison, I have certainly not ecnouraged that.===
I wouldn't feel compelled to press him to spend time with someone he has flat-out said he doesn't like.
That said, since he enjoys spending time with his cousin, perhaps you could suggest to your sister that you two and your kids meet at a park or other outdoorsy place (neutral territory) on a regular basis -- someplace where it's okay to run and be loud!
Maybe he will begin to be more comfortable with her if the time being spent around her is someplace where the kids can spread their wings, and where she's less inclined to clip those wings ;-).
When my son was that age, he preferred to be with me or his dad. My son and I did, however, meet up with my two sisters-in-law and their kids on a weekly basis (sometimes twice a week) at someplace or another away from our houses (parks, indoor play areas, etc.). My son was shy around his aunts and would come to me when he needed help or wanted me to join in his play, but if I'd stepped away or was doing something with one of his cousins then one of his aunts would offer to help or to push him on the swings or to play with him until I was available. They were gentle with him and not pushy, and that helped him become comfortable with them.
At 12, he still comes to me first if we're all gathered together, but he does trust his aunts (and uncles) and knows they will help out if I'm not available. (Although he's much more inclined to go to the aunt and uncle who are kinder and gentler in their tones of voice than to the aunt and uncle who raise their voices and are more disrespectful in how they talk to their own kids.)
If you do choose for your son and you to spend more time around your sister, I would be honest with her and tell her that loud and aggressive voices scare him, whether those voices are directed at him or someone else, and if she wants him to become more comfortable around her then it would help if she would use a softer and gentler tone of voice when he's around.
I've found that people who make a habit of yelling or talking loudly aren't always aware that those tones of voice create a feeling of "not safe" to some people (my son, for example!); maybe your sister isn't aware of that either.
I disagree strongly with your sister's comment that you shouldn't be the center of your son's universe -- at 4.5, you absolutely SHOULD be the center of his universe!! Nor would I accept the guilt it seems she's trying to lay at your feet about her not being a bigger part of your son's life. It's your job to protect your son, and if he tells you he doesn't like being around her, what she wants is far less important than him feeling safe. You can offer her options with which you and your son are comfortable, and she can make an effort to interact with / around him in a way that helps him feel more comfortable around her, but your obligation is to your son not your sister!
Glenda
I wouldn't feel compelled to press him to spend time with someone he has flat-out said he doesn't like.
That said, since he enjoys spending time with his cousin, perhaps you could suggest to your sister that you two and your kids meet at a park or other outdoorsy place (neutral territory) on a regular basis -- someplace where it's okay to run and be loud!
Maybe he will begin to be more comfortable with her if the time being spent around her is someplace where the kids can spread their wings, and where she's less inclined to clip those wings ;-).
When my son was that age, he preferred to be with me or his dad. My son and I did, however, meet up with my two sisters-in-law and their kids on a weekly basis (sometimes twice a week) at someplace or another away from our houses (parks, indoor play areas, etc.). My son was shy around his aunts and would come to me when he needed help or wanted me to join in his play, but if I'd stepped away or was doing something with one of his cousins then one of his aunts would offer to help or to push him on the swings or to play with him until I was available. They were gentle with him and not pushy, and that helped him become comfortable with them.
At 12, he still comes to me first if we're all gathered together, but he does trust his aunts (and uncles) and knows they will help out if I'm not available. (Although he's much more inclined to go to the aunt and uncle who are kinder and gentler in their tones of voice than to the aunt and uncle who raise their voices and are more disrespectful in how they talk to their own kids.)
If you do choose for your son and you to spend more time around your sister, I would be honest with her and tell her that loud and aggressive voices scare him, whether those voices are directed at him or someone else, and if she wants him to become more comfortable around her then it would help if she would use a softer and gentler tone of voice when he's around.
I've found that people who make a habit of yelling or talking loudly aren't always aware that those tones of voice create a feeling of "not safe" to some people (my son, for example!); maybe your sister isn't aware of that either.
I disagree strongly with your sister's comment that you shouldn't be the center of your son's universe -- at 4.5, you absolutely SHOULD be the center of his universe!! Nor would I accept the guilt it seems she's trying to lay at your feet about her not being a bigger part of your son's life. It's your job to protect your son, and if he tells you he doesn't like being around her, what she wants is far less important than him feeling safe. You can offer her options with which you and your son are comfortable, and she can make an effort to interact with / around him in a way that helps him feel more comfortable around her, but your obligation is to your son not your sister!
Glenda
Camille
A couple of observations (warning: this is "nickel psychology," a la Lucy in
Peanuts, and your mileage may vary!): The first is that siblings carry their
own struggles into adulthood. Your sister has some "stuff" going on. I don't
doubt that her desire to bond with your son is genuine. I also don't doubt
that she's still working out some stuff in her own relationship with you.
Also, people see the world through the lens of their own experiences. But
it's still her issue, not yours.
I had a similar issue with my siblings. I'm an attachment parent, they
weren't. I don't hit. They do. My kids didn't know what daycare was. Their
kids grew up with other people caring for them. My kids thought frozen green
peas were a treat. Their kids carried around sacks of candy. I could not
have imagined sending my child to a relative's home for the summer; they did
it every year. My kids learned at home and at their own paces. Their kids
went to competitive public schools. They thought I was way overprotective
and neurotic. I thought they were seriously missing the boat. And so on.
With everything from extended nursing to family bedding to homeschooling, I
caught flak from my extended family. One thing that seemed apparent was that
they sometimes felt that my choices were some kind of put-down on their
choices: "I'd breastfeed if I could, I know it's best for the baby, but I
don't have the luxury of staying at home with my kids all day." (Yeah, but
you also have two new cars, an expensive house in the 'burbs and your kids
wear Nikes. We have one car, an older home, my kids wear homemade and garage
sale clothes, etc.)
What helped was when I stopped defending my parenting choices and simply
replied that we all love our kids, we all do our best, and each family's
choices will naturally be different. Vive la difference!
One thing that worked for us was for me to invite their kids to my home. The
kids had a good time, the cousins bonded, and we got to enjoy each other.
Meeting at the zoo, the museum, etc. was also good.
What was even better was taking every opportunity to celebrate our
family-ness. Phone calls to Auntie from my kids, being cousin pen-pals,
making sure to share as much of our kids' lives as possible with the
extended family, helped smooth over some of those rough edges.
Bottom line: You don't get to choose your blood kin but it's a great lesson
to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
water.
In peace,
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peanuts, and your mileage may vary!): The first is that siblings carry their
own struggles into adulthood. Your sister has some "stuff" going on. I don't
doubt that her desire to bond with your son is genuine. I also don't doubt
that she's still working out some stuff in her own relationship with you.
Also, people see the world through the lens of their own experiences. But
it's still her issue, not yours.
I had a similar issue with my siblings. I'm an attachment parent, they
weren't. I don't hit. They do. My kids didn't know what daycare was. Their
kids grew up with other people caring for them. My kids thought frozen green
peas were a treat. Their kids carried around sacks of candy. I could not
have imagined sending my child to a relative's home for the summer; they did
it every year. My kids learned at home and at their own paces. Their kids
went to competitive public schools. They thought I was way overprotective
and neurotic. I thought they were seriously missing the boat. And so on.
With everything from extended nursing to family bedding to homeschooling, I
caught flak from my extended family. One thing that seemed apparent was that
they sometimes felt that my choices were some kind of put-down on their
choices: "I'd breastfeed if I could, I know it's best for the baby, but I
don't have the luxury of staying at home with my kids all day." (Yeah, but
you also have two new cars, an expensive house in the 'burbs and your kids
wear Nikes. We have one car, an older home, my kids wear homemade and garage
sale clothes, etc.)
What helped was when I stopped defending my parenting choices and simply
replied that we all love our kids, we all do our best, and each family's
choices will naturally be different. Vive la difference!
One thing that worked for us was for me to invite their kids to my home. The
kids had a good time, the cousins bonded, and we got to enjoy each other.
Meeting at the zoo, the museum, etc. was also good.
What was even better was taking every opportunity to celebrate our
family-ness. Phone calls to Auntie from my kids, being cousin pen-pals,
making sure to share as much of our kids' lives as possible with the
extended family, helped smooth over some of those rough edges.
Bottom line: You don't get to choose your blood kin but it's a great lesson
to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
water.
In peace,
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deannat97
Others have made some good suggestions here. I wanted to add that it might help to step back & look at things from a somewhat detached perspective.
What jumped out at me from your sister's email was that it was all about *her* and what *she* wanted in terms of a relationship with your son. And you are guiding your actions by your son's well-being and comfort, not your sister's.
Your sister tells you:
== part of being a mom is letting others care and nurture him as well.==
What if he doesn't feel cared for or nurtured in the presence of certain people/situations? Let your son be your guide. He is young, and still needs you to help provide happy and comfortable environments to explore the world in -- happy and comfortable from *his* point of view.
Deanna
What jumped out at me from your sister's email was that it was all about *her* and what *she* wanted in terms of a relationship with your son. And you are guiding your actions by your son's well-being and comfort, not your sister's.
Your sister tells you:
== part of being a mom is letting others care and nurture him as well.==
What if he doesn't feel cared for or nurtured in the presence of certain people/situations? Let your son be your guide. He is young, and still needs you to help provide happy and comfortable environments to explore the world in -- happy and comfortable from *his* point of view.
Deanna
plaidpanties666
Camille <sojournerc@...> wrote:
There's no good "lesson" to be learned from forcing a child to endure uncomfortable situations with relatives - one doesn't automatically come to love extended family, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
One possible response to the letter from the sister is a brief "I'm sorry you don't feel connected to Logan. Hopefully that is something that can change over time. I thank you for your concern, but I'm not interested in discussing the differences in our parenting philosophies. I'm glad what you're doing works for you."
---Meredith
>> Bottom line: You don't get to choose your blood kin but it's a great lessonThat's something for individual families to decide, though: is it worth it to put up with family differences for the sake of "blood"? Sometimes it can be, but not always. It can be better to keep family at arms reach and look for relationships and community elsewhere, or even to take a break from visiting with family for a few years until kids are mature enough to deal with familial strangness more thoughtfully and graciously.
> to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
> have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
> water.
There's no good "lesson" to be learned from forcing a child to endure uncomfortable situations with relatives - one doesn't automatically come to love extended family, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
One possible response to the letter from the sister is a brief "I'm sorry you don't feel connected to Logan. Hopefully that is something that can change over time. I thank you for your concern, but I'm not interested in discussing the differences in our parenting philosophies. I'm glad what you're doing works for you."
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
What I find most confusing is what she actually expects you to do. She seems to
want a relationship with your son, but only by you and your son going to her and
being friends with her. There's a saying, the best way to get a hug is to give
one. It seems like she wants a hug, but she wants you guys to hug her. Why is
she not reaching out and giving hugs? If she wants a relationship why doesn't
she invite him places, send him cards and notes, and call him and chit chat?
Perhaps this isn't something your sister has figured out yet... but if you want
friends and you want to be friends with specific people, then the onus is on YOU
to make that happen. You can't simply wait for others to read your mind and
suddenly become friends with you. All of the relationships that I have with
people are relationships that I've invested time and energy in. It doesn't take
much to maintain some of those friendships, a little note here or there, a phone
call, remembering a birthday or special event, a yearly special get together for
an in person hug, etc. The more you invest in an individual person, the more
you get back from that relationship.
With kids, the investment must come from the adult. That's the way it works and
eventually that kid will return that if it seems worth investing in. It's not
something an adult can force out of a kid, but any adult can befriend a kid by
BEING a friend, by entering that kid's world and relating to them there.
My kids absolutely don't tolerate yelling or controlling behavior from any
friends, adult or otherwise. My younger daughter has such a strong aversion to
it that she refuses to be left alone in the presence of an adult who is like
that even if it's to play with a kid she loves. I won't force her to get over
her feelings, they exist for a reason and are her instincts kicking in designed
to protect her. As her mom, I'm designed to help that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
want a relationship with your son, but only by you and your son going to her and
being friends with her. There's a saying, the best way to get a hug is to give
one. It seems like she wants a hug, but she wants you guys to hug her. Why is
she not reaching out and giving hugs? If she wants a relationship why doesn't
she invite him places, send him cards and notes, and call him and chit chat?
Perhaps this isn't something your sister has figured out yet... but if you want
friends and you want to be friends with specific people, then the onus is on YOU
to make that happen. You can't simply wait for others to read your mind and
suddenly become friends with you. All of the relationships that I have with
people are relationships that I've invested time and energy in. It doesn't take
much to maintain some of those friendships, a little note here or there, a phone
call, remembering a birthday or special event, a yearly special get together for
an in person hug, etc. The more you invest in an individual person, the more
you get back from that relationship.
With kids, the investment must come from the adult. That's the way it works and
eventually that kid will return that if it seems worth investing in. It's not
something an adult can force out of a kid, but any adult can befriend a kid by
BEING a friend, by entering that kid's world and relating to them there.
My kids absolutely don't tolerate yelling or controlling behavior from any
friends, adult or otherwise. My younger daughter has such a strong aversion to
it that she refuses to be left alone in the presence of an adult who is like
that even if it's to play with a kid she loves. I won't force her to get over
her feelings, they exist for a reason and are her instincts kicking in designed
to protect her. As her mom, I'm designed to help that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
My dad's 3rd wife is like that and I've been very firm in terms of defending Mo's space the few times we've visted with her - and now we flat out avoid her because its sooooooo much work running interference with someone who believes her role in a relationship with a child is to tell the child what to do.
With other relatives I've given gentle advice: "what helps with Mo is to give her time and plenty of space" and that works with those particular relatives (George's mom and my favorite Aunty). But that sort of approach didn't seem to work with my dad's wife, rather she took those kinds of comments as openings to criticize my parenting: "you shouldn't let her get away with that!" So it could be important for the original poster to be very clear about her own boundaries in terms of discussing her parenting philosophy - as in, it is Not a topic for discussion (thank you for asking, pass the bean dip).
---Meredith
>That might be something to suggest to her - in a friendly, "here's how you can get Logan to warm up to you" sort of way, perhaps. I suspect, from what she wrote, that she thinks children learn to love relatives in part by being *made* to give hugs and kisses to people regardless of their feelings - she made a comment that she *should* have been allowed to hold baby Logan much longer, no matter if he cried, after all.
> What I find most confusing is what she actually expects you to do. She seems to
> want a relationship with your son, but only by you and your son going to her and
> being friends with her. There's a saying, the best way to get a hug is to give
> one. It seems like she wants a hug, but she wants you guys to hug her. Why is
> she not reaching out and giving hugs?
My dad's 3rd wife is like that and I've been very firm in terms of defending Mo's space the few times we've visted with her - and now we flat out avoid her because its sooooooo much work running interference with someone who believes her role in a relationship with a child is to tell the child what to do.
With other relatives I've given gentle advice: "what helps with Mo is to give her time and plenty of space" and that works with those particular relatives (George's mom and my favorite Aunty). But that sort of approach didn't seem to work with my dad's wife, rather she took those kinds of comments as openings to criticize my parenting: "you shouldn't let her get away with that!" So it could be important for the original poster to be very clear about her own boundaries in terms of discussing her parenting philosophy - as in, it is Not a topic for discussion (thank you for asking, pass the bean dip).
---Meredith
Camille
I'm enjoying this thread -- it hits pretty close to home for me.
Something else occurred to me. Namely, there are huge cultural differences
in the way people think of "family" and what that means. I come from a clan
that considers family ties to be very important. Failing to adhere to these
cultural traditions would have meant more than just a casual disagreement
between family members, it would have meant a serious split and would have
caused perhaps more pain than would be the case in a family that has a
different cultural overalay.
One thing that really helped my kids (and me) was to teach the kids to do
certain things that made everybody happy; then the kids could retreat to
their own comfort zone without catching flak. For instance, my kids were
taught to greet elders very politely, make appropriate small talk, then get
outta Dodge. "Good morning, Aunt Mimi. I'm so glad to see you again. Yes,
I'm learning a lot at home. No, I don't wish I could go to school, they
won't let me to calculus until I'm a teenager. I hope your arthritis is
better. Do you like the picture I drew for you?" And then the kid would be
out of there but the family could only remark about how well behaved he was.
Of course, this doesn't work for infants. When my kids were babies, I had to
turn into Mama Bear: "Mother (to my M-I-L), she is at a stage where she
doesn't feel comfortable with anybody other than me and her dad. How about I
hold her on my lap and you play patty cake?" Of course, this didn't keep
the same MIL from telling me that she didn't think of my kids as her "real"
grandkids because she never had an opportunity to give them a bottle and she
just didn't get those funny fleece diapers I used ... but it also prevented
all-out warfare, which was to nobody's advantage. I did have to tell her
that if she criticized my toddler for nursing, however, we would have to
stay away until the kid was 5. She shut up, at least in our presence.
Family. Gotta love 'em cause nobody else wants 'em. One of my young cousins
refers to such folks as "blood acquaintances."
On the other hand, if the end product strikes the propeller blades, my clan
is there for me and I've got their backs, so I guess it's worth it in the
end.
In peace,
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Something else occurred to me. Namely, there are huge cultural differences
in the way people think of "family" and what that means. I come from a clan
that considers family ties to be very important. Failing to adhere to these
cultural traditions would have meant more than just a casual disagreement
between family members, it would have meant a serious split and would have
caused perhaps more pain than would be the case in a family that has a
different cultural overalay.
One thing that really helped my kids (and me) was to teach the kids to do
certain things that made everybody happy; then the kids could retreat to
their own comfort zone without catching flak. For instance, my kids were
taught to greet elders very politely, make appropriate small talk, then get
outta Dodge. "Good morning, Aunt Mimi. I'm so glad to see you again. Yes,
I'm learning a lot at home. No, I don't wish I could go to school, they
won't let me to calculus until I'm a teenager. I hope your arthritis is
better. Do you like the picture I drew for you?" And then the kid would be
out of there but the family could only remark about how well behaved he was.
Of course, this doesn't work for infants. When my kids were babies, I had to
turn into Mama Bear: "Mother (to my M-I-L), she is at a stage where she
doesn't feel comfortable with anybody other than me and her dad. How about I
hold her on my lap and you play patty cake?" Of course, this didn't keep
the same MIL from telling me that she didn't think of my kids as her "real"
grandkids because she never had an opportunity to give them a bottle and she
just didn't get those funny fleece diapers I used ... but it also prevented
all-out warfare, which was to nobody's advantage. I did have to tell her
that if she criticized my toddler for nursing, however, we would have to
stay away until the kid was 5. She shut up, at least in our presence.
Family. Gotta love 'em cause nobody else wants 'em. One of my young cousins
refers to such folks as "blood acquaintances."
On the other hand, if the end product strikes the propeller blades, my clan
is there for me and I've got their backs, so I guess it's worth it in the
end.
In peace,
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nycartgal2003
Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions.
** So what is she suggesting? Does she think you should force Logan against his will to accept her so he can learn to trust other people ??**
I think that may be the question I need to ask her, what is it that you want now?
I love my sister, and we have always had a rocky relationship. Looking back, my mom unintentionally created the tensions between us since we were kids. I felt shaky and upset when I read her email, it brought up so much past stuff. She and I haven't had much in common for years, but we do our best to maintain some connection.
The relationship that I think is most important is the one between my neice and my son. They are both only children, and really love each other, and have so much fun together.
Logan has only recently opened up to both my mom and dad, telling them he loves them, hugging them. We never pushed this, and I think it has come in part because they have finally started going out of their way to play with him, not just have expectations of him, and also because my husband and I have made it clear ( in a kind way) who his parents are. They are chosing being with Logan over having their way. Alison still wants it her way, even over a 4.5 year old.
**What was even better was taking every opportunity to celebrate our
family-ness. Phone calls to Auntie from my kids, being cousin pen-pals.**
Both his grandmas send him letters sand packages now, he loves it, and writes back to them.
**That said, since he enjoys spending time with his cousin, perhaps you could
suggest to your sister that you two and your kids meet at a park or other
outdoorsy place (neutral territory) on a regular basis -- someplace where it's
okay to run and be loud!**
This is a great idea now that the spring/summer is here.
Meryl
** So what is she suggesting? Does she think you should force Logan against his will to accept her so he can learn to trust other people ??**
I think that may be the question I need to ask her, what is it that you want now?
I love my sister, and we have always had a rocky relationship. Looking back, my mom unintentionally created the tensions between us since we were kids. I felt shaky and upset when I read her email, it brought up so much past stuff. She and I haven't had much in common for years, but we do our best to maintain some connection.
The relationship that I think is most important is the one between my neice and my son. They are both only children, and really love each other, and have so much fun together.
Logan has only recently opened up to both my mom and dad, telling them he loves them, hugging them. We never pushed this, and I think it has come in part because they have finally started going out of their way to play with him, not just have expectations of him, and also because my husband and I have made it clear ( in a kind way) who his parents are. They are chosing being with Logan over having their way. Alison still wants it her way, even over a 4.5 year old.
**What was even better was taking every opportunity to celebrate our
family-ness. Phone calls to Auntie from my kids, being cousin pen-pals.**
Both his grandmas send him letters sand packages now, he loves it, and writes back to them.
**That said, since he enjoys spending time with his cousin, perhaps you could
suggest to your sister that you two and your kids meet at a park or other
outdoorsy place (neutral territory) on a regular basis -- someplace where it's
okay to run and be loud!**
This is a great idea now that the spring/summer is here.
Meryl
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> So what is she suggesting? Does she think you should force Logan against his will to accept her so he can learn to trust other people ??
> IT does not make any sense.
> When MD, my son, was little , there were only a couple people that could hold him and it took time for them to get used to this people he saw *everyday*. If he was distressed only mom would do and no one else. Little by little he was OK with close people, of course first his dad, then my mom and his other grandma.
> I would have never force him to go with someone so the person could hold him if he did not want to.
> That is not how children learn to trust others.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Bottom line: You don't get to choose your blood kin but it's a great lesson
to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
water.-=-
Can you rephrase "blood is thicker than water"?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
water.-=-
Can you rephrase "blood is thicker than water"?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
The e-mail seems to be a politely, polished pile of criticism, with some "I'm not criticizing you" sprinkles on top.
You don't need to respond at all.
Sandra
You don't need to respond at all.
Sandra
Camille
Sandra,
I have friends that I love dearly and for whom I'd go the mile. But when I
say "blood is thicker than water," I mean that (at least in my cultural
milieu) the word family means somebody you'd go to the mat for, regardless
of how ticked off you might be with them. The aphorism itself is an oldie, I
didn't make it up.
From Wikipedia: *"Blood is thicker than water"* is a German
proverb<http://mail.google.com/wiki/Proverb>(originally:
*Blut ist dicker als Wasser.*), which is also common in English
speaking<http://mail.google.com/wiki/English_language>countries. It
generally means that the bonds of family and common ancestry
are stronger than those bonds between unrelated people (such as friendship).
Again, I think there's a cultural element here and the underlying values are
different for different people; but for me, when kinfolk need you, you're
there -- and vice versa.
Camille
I have friends that I love dearly and for whom I'd go the mile. But when I
say "blood is thicker than water," I mean that (at least in my cultural
milieu) the word family means somebody you'd go to the mat for, regardless
of how ticked off you might be with them. The aphorism itself is an oldie, I
didn't make it up.
From Wikipedia: *"Blood is thicker than water"* is a German
proverb<http://mail.google.com/wiki/Proverb>(originally:
*Blut ist dicker als Wasser.*), which is also common in English
speaking<http://mail.google.com/wiki/English_language>countries. It
generally means that the bonds of family and common ancestry
are stronger than those bonds between unrelated people (such as friendship).
Again, I think there's a cultural element here and the underlying values are
different for different people; but for me, when kinfolk need you, you're
there -- and vice versa.
Camille
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-Bottom line: You don't get to choose your blood kin but it's a great
> lesson
>
> to impart to our children, that we love people for who they are even if we
> have differences; people are to be cherished; and blood is thicker than
> water.-=-
>
> Can you rephrase "blood is thicker than water"?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
In Peace,
Camille
^///^\\\///^\\\///^\\\///^\\\^
* Action engenders hope. *
~ Studs Terkel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***One thing that really helped my kids (and me) was to teach the kids to do
certain things that made everybody happy; then the kids could retreat to
their own comfort zone without catching flak. For instance, my kids were
taught to greet elders very politely, make appropriate small talk, then get
outta Dodge. "Good morning, Aunt Mimi. I'm so glad to see you again. Yes,
I'm learning a lot at home. No, I don't wish I could go to school, they
won't let me to calculus until I'm a teenager. I hope your arthritis is
better. Do you like the picture I drew for you?" And then the kid would be
out of there but the family could only remark about how well behaved he was.***
Since this yahoo group is less about teaching and more about learning, I'm going
to dissect this little bit...
If a parent can prompt a kid to do social niceties, then that's great, less work
for the parents, but if they can't, no amount of teaching will help them do it.
If there are any parents of any kids out there who would not, or cannot, for
whatever reason, do social niceties, there are ways to help that don't involve
teaching or force or coercion.
My oldest did NOT talk to strangers, period. Relatives that are only seen once
a year are strangers to little kids no matter how well the parents know them. I
talked for her. I held her in my arms, or held her hand or stood next to her
and "we" said hello together. I would do all the talking for both of us and let
her nod her head in agreement. I remember very clearly the first time that she
felt okay talking to a stranger. We were out walking in our neighborhood, she
was about 6/7. We went on walks a lot and I said hello to people that we'd pass
along the way. Sometimes neighbors say hello back or do more chit chat before
passing on by. That's how it happened, she simply said hello with me. It was
so huge that I remember writing about it way back in the unschooling dot com
forums!
Since that moment, she got braver and braver and more social with strangers and
social niceties with relatives and grocery clerks and librarians, etc. There
was nothing that I or her dad could do before she was ready to make her do it
before she was ready to. We tried awkward silences before speaking up, we tried
whispering in her ear to tell her what to say, nothing worked. We talked for
her, in her presence and let her nod in agreement. I got earfuls from people
for not letting her talk for herself. I let it go. They didn't know what they
were talking about.
She learned how to do the social niceties by following the example of her
parents. She listened and payed attention for 6 yrs, likely repeating it in her
own head until she was ready to do it for herself. I did not teach her to do
it. There were no lessons. She simply figured it out and found her own
comfort.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
certain things that made everybody happy; then the kids could retreat to
their own comfort zone without catching flak. For instance, my kids were
taught to greet elders very politely, make appropriate small talk, then get
outta Dodge. "Good morning, Aunt Mimi. I'm so glad to see you again. Yes,
I'm learning a lot at home. No, I don't wish I could go to school, they
won't let me to calculus until I'm a teenager. I hope your arthritis is
better. Do you like the picture I drew for you?" And then the kid would be
out of there but the family could only remark about how well behaved he was.***
Since this yahoo group is less about teaching and more about learning, I'm going
to dissect this little bit...
If a parent can prompt a kid to do social niceties, then that's great, less work
for the parents, but if they can't, no amount of teaching will help them do it.
If there are any parents of any kids out there who would not, or cannot, for
whatever reason, do social niceties, there are ways to help that don't involve
teaching or force or coercion.
My oldest did NOT talk to strangers, period. Relatives that are only seen once
a year are strangers to little kids no matter how well the parents know them. I
talked for her. I held her in my arms, or held her hand or stood next to her
and "we" said hello together. I would do all the talking for both of us and let
her nod her head in agreement. I remember very clearly the first time that she
felt okay talking to a stranger. We were out walking in our neighborhood, she
was about 6/7. We went on walks a lot and I said hello to people that we'd pass
along the way. Sometimes neighbors say hello back or do more chit chat before
passing on by. That's how it happened, she simply said hello with me. It was
so huge that I remember writing about it way back in the unschooling dot com
forums!
Since that moment, she got braver and braver and more social with strangers and
social niceties with relatives and grocery clerks and librarians, etc. There
was nothing that I or her dad could do before she was ready to make her do it
before she was ready to. We tried awkward silences before speaking up, we tried
whispering in her ear to tell her what to say, nothing worked. We talked for
her, in her presence and let her nod in agreement. I got earfuls from people
for not letting her talk for herself. I let it go. They didn't know what they
were talking about.
She learned how to do the social niceties by following the example of her
parents. She listened and payed attention for 6 yrs, likely repeating it in her
own head until she was ready to do it for herself. I did not teach her to do
it. There were no lessons. She simply figured it out and found her own
comfort.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nycartgal2003
Sandra,
I don't know why it never occurred to me that I don't have to respond.
She may be expecting it, but that is not my responsibility.
Thank you, I feel relieved.
Meryl
I don't know why it never occurred to me that I don't have to respond.
She may be expecting it, but that is not my responsibility.
Thank you, I feel relieved.
Meryl
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> The e-mail seems to be a politely, polished pile of criticism, with some "I'm not criticizing you" sprinkles on top.
>
> You don't need to respond at all.
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have friends that I love dearly and for whom I'd go the mile. But when I
say "blood is thicker than water," I mean that (at least in my cultural
milieu) the word family means somebody you'd go to the mat for, regardless
of how ticked off you might be with them. The aphorism itself is an oldie, I
didn't make it up.-=-
I wasn't suggesting you made it up--I just wanted to see what you intended by using it, and whether you'd really thought about it or were reciting something family members had said to you.
It's fairly common for people to recite such things without really thinking about why they said them or whether it's true, or whether it's healthy to think that way. Abuse is also fairly common, and no one should feel required to endure or condone abuse because of something like "blood is thicker than water," which is just a dramatic but silly saying. It carries an implied threat, and reminds me of more abuse.
I would not go to the mat for someone regardless, no matter HOW related they were to me, if what they had done was immoral, illegal or full of stinky poo. Principles are more important to me than the random fact of someone having genes similar to mine. My parents *could* have had twelve children, or none, but they had two. I owe my sister some attention, but I don't owe her my safety or security. I won't choose her over the peace and prosperity of my husband and children. The phrase "go to the mat for" is similarly an idiom intended to be dramatic without being clear or specific.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
say "blood is thicker than water," I mean that (at least in my cultural
milieu) the word family means somebody you'd go to the mat for, regardless
of how ticked off you might be with them. The aphorism itself is an oldie, I
didn't make it up.-=-
I wasn't suggesting you made it up--I just wanted to see what you intended by using it, and whether you'd really thought about it or were reciting something family members had said to you.
It's fairly common for people to recite such things without really thinking about why they said them or whether it's true, or whether it's healthy to think that way. Abuse is also fairly common, and no one should feel required to endure or condone abuse because of something like "blood is thicker than water," which is just a dramatic but silly saying. It carries an implied threat, and reminds me of more abuse.
I would not go to the mat for someone regardless, no matter HOW related they were to me, if what they had done was immoral, illegal or full of stinky poo. Principles are more important to me than the random fact of someone having genes similar to mine. My parents *could* have had twelve children, or none, but they had two. I owe my sister some attention, but I don't owe her my safety or security. I won't choose her over the peace and prosperity of my husband and children. The phrase "go to the mat for" is similarly an idiom intended to be dramatic without being clear or specific.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm sorry I didn't quote ANYthing to go with this:
-=-The e-mail seems to be a politely, polished pile of criticism, with some "I'm not criticizing you" sprinkles on top.
You don't need to respond at all.
Sandra-=-
I meant the long note from someone's sister about how the child wasn't bonded to the aunt and the mom was incompetent in various ways and blahdy-shame-blah-blah.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-The e-mail seems to be a politely, polished pile of criticism, with some "I'm not criticizing you" sprinkles on top.
You don't need to respond at all.
Sandra-=-
I meant the long note from someone's sister about how the child wasn't bonded to the aunt and the mom was incompetent in various ways and blahdy-shame-blah-blah.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"One possible response to the letter from the sister is a brief "I'm sorry you
don't feel connected to Logan. Hopefully that is something that can change over
time. I thank you for your concern, but I'm not interested in discussing the
differences in our parenting philosophies. I'm glad what you're doing works for
you."
---Meredith"
I think that this response to your sister's email would be best. Don't engage
with her about your differences. Don't get defensive or apologetic (using words
like "overprotective" will give her the impression that you see yourself as she
sees you: *over* protective, as in unreasonably protective). I think your sister
is passive aggressively judging your parenting and blaming you for her lack of a
relationship with your son. Maybe your parenting style is the cause of this, or
maybe it's not. Regardless, she doesn't really seem open to having a
conversation about *why* you parent as you do or *how* to have a relationship
with your son; she simply wants you to make it happen, and that is asking you to
potentially hurt your relationship with your son. And, if your son is anything
like my daughter (5yo in June), no amount of pressure is going to make him want
to be around her. In fact, the pressure will likely push him further away from
her. Maybe gently suggest to your sister that warmth begets warmth, and over
time Logan will warm to her if she is warm and welcoming to him. In the
meantime, you keep being the mom you are being.
Lisa B L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't feel connected to Logan. Hopefully that is something that can change over
time. I thank you for your concern, but I'm not interested in discussing the
differences in our parenting philosophies. I'm glad what you're doing works for
you."
---Meredith"
I think that this response to your sister's email would be best. Don't engage
with her about your differences. Don't get defensive or apologetic (using words
like "overprotective" will give her the impression that you see yourself as she
sees you: *over* protective, as in unreasonably protective). I think your sister
is passive aggressively judging your parenting and blaming you for her lack of a
relationship with your son. Maybe your parenting style is the cause of this, or
maybe it's not. Regardless, she doesn't really seem open to having a
conversation about *why* you parent as you do or *how* to have a relationship
with your son; she simply wants you to make it happen, and that is asking you to
potentially hurt your relationship with your son. And, if your son is anything
like my daughter (5yo in June), no amount of pressure is going to make him want
to be around her. In fact, the pressure will likely push him further away from
her. Maybe gently suggest to your sister that warmth begets warmth, and over
time Logan will warm to her if she is warm and welcoming to him. In the
meantime, you keep being the mom you are being.
Lisa B L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
What Jenny wrote is exactly what I was thinking. If your sister wants to friend
her nephew, she needs to figure out the way. You can help in little ways, but
you certainly cannot make him be her friend. I don't know how you can gently
tell her that, maybe offer her things that he likes as an idea for ways for her
to be kinder to him, to make him more likely to see her as the kind of person he
could be friends with. Tell her that the only way she can get him to be her
friend is by working to be his. Otherwise it's just a strange kind of polite
noise that he's making that means nothing.
Not that a polite noise isn't a good thing. Sometimes a polite noise is really
helpful at making things smoother, like kissing a relative stranger on the cheek
when you greet each other. It isn't affection, it's just a cultural thing. Maybe
she thinks your son doesn't respect her and what she's really asking you to make
your son do is respect her wishes above his own.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 May, 2011 19:55:50
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] help with family/sister
What I find most confusing is what she actually expects you to do. She seems to
want a relationship with your son, but only by you and your son going to her and
being friends with her. There's a saying, the best way to get a hug is to give
one. It seems like she wants a hug, but she wants you guys to hug her. Why is
she not reaching out and giving hugs? If she wants a relationship why doesn't
she invite him places, send him cards and notes, and call him and chit chat?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
her nephew, she needs to figure out the way. You can help in little ways, but
you certainly cannot make him be her friend. I don't know how you can gently
tell her that, maybe offer her things that he likes as an idea for ways for her
to be kinder to him, to make him more likely to see her as the kind of person he
could be friends with. Tell her that the only way she can get him to be her
friend is by working to be his. Otherwise it's just a strange kind of polite
noise that he's making that means nothing.
Not that a polite noise isn't a good thing. Sometimes a polite noise is really
helpful at making things smoother, like kissing a relative stranger on the cheek
when you greet each other. It isn't affection, it's just a cultural thing. Maybe
she thinks your son doesn't respect her and what she's really asking you to make
your son do is respect her wishes above his own.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 May, 2011 19:55:50
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] help with family/sister
What I find most confusing is what she actually expects you to do. She seems to
want a relationship with your son, but only by you and your son going to her and
being friends with her. There's a saying, the best way to get a hug is to give
one. It seems like she wants a hug, but she wants you guys to hug her. Why is
she not reaching out and giving hugs? If she wants a relationship why doesn't
she invite him places, send him cards and notes, and call him and chit chat?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Camille <sojournerc@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>For instance, my kids wereThat's the sort of solution that will work better for some children than others - and with some adults, too. For instance, Ray does really well making banal small-talk with extended family, even my family, his step-family. Mo, however, takes a long time to warm up to people so small-talk hasn't been possible for her until recently - she's 9. So it has been better to keep her away from situations where adults will expect her to chit-chat (and in the case of my stepmother even try to bully her into talking... talk about a worst possible strategy!).
> taught to greet elders very politely, make appropriate small talk, then get
> outta Dodge.
>>Failing to adhere to theseThe pain of other adults is something to think about compassionately, but not to prioritize over the effects of bullying on your own children. If you can create situations where you're not setting your kids up to be bullied, that's fantastic - but its not always possible Especially in families with strong cultural traditions. Cultural ties and old saws like "blood is thicker than water" are the most common excuse for turning a blind eye to bullying and far, far worse where children are concerned.
> cultural traditions would have meant more than just a casual disagreement
> between family members, it would have meant a serious split and would have
> caused perhaps more pain
> On the other hand, if the end product strikes the propeller blades, my clanThe sad fact is, its more likely that relatives who casually bully and even actively harm children will be extended the benefit of that protection - far more often than the children themselves.
> is there for me and I've got their backs, so I guess it's worth it in the
> end.
---Meredith