What do you do when your spouse doesn't get it?
railyuh
My husband is supportive of unschooling, but I am starting to realize that while he is supportive of it in theory, that doesn't always play out in actual practice.
For example, a few days ago my son (who is 5) was asking if some words rhymed, something like bug and book. My husband says no, they don't. My son replies with, "Yes, they do. How do you know? You don't know!" My husband starts to get frustrated (partly because it was really early in the morning, he was tired and cranky to begin with, and partly because my son says that kind of thing a lot lately and I've noticed that it really triggers my husband to hear his 5 year old say "you don't know!"). So he says something like yes, I do know, my son says no you don't, how do you know, etc. Until finally my husband says, "Because I'm an adult." Even before that final line, his tone during the whole conversation was so authoritarian and harsh that it just made me cringe. Instead of really listening to him and responding to his question and working through it with him, he wanted to throw one word final answers at him and was mad when our son didn't get it and didn't accept his word as the answer without explanation.
It just seemed so anti-everything we have always talked about in regards to how we treat our children and what we want for our family. It was so disrespectful to our son as a person. I'm sure I don't have to explain here all the things I felt were so wrong about that conversation, but I do want to know how others would deal with this situation. Typically if I get involved in the moment, or try to direct the conversation in another way it leads to my husband and I fighting (part of me feels like this is okay sometimes, people fight--but part of me feels like our arguments escalate quickly and it doesn't feel like a very healthy thing to do in front of our children). On the other hand, I feel like staying out of it isn't very good for my son either and it breaks my heart to watch this kind of thing go on. Usually I try to talk to DH about it later, and after defending himself for a while he usually seems to get it, and I can tell he is really trying--but when he is frustrated or tired he reverts back to this kind of behavior. I definitely think he feels like he is owed something, like his children must respect him and listen to him and obey him (because that's how his parents treated him and gosh darn it, it's his turn now!). He knows logically that this isn't right or true, but in the moment he really struggles to live differently and to choose to react in a different way than his own parents did.
I guess I am just wondering if other people deal with this and how they deal with it, what do you do when your spouse doesn't get it? How do you handle these situations in the moment, and how do you handle them later?
For example, a few days ago my son (who is 5) was asking if some words rhymed, something like bug and book. My husband says no, they don't. My son replies with, "Yes, they do. How do you know? You don't know!" My husband starts to get frustrated (partly because it was really early in the morning, he was tired and cranky to begin with, and partly because my son says that kind of thing a lot lately and I've noticed that it really triggers my husband to hear his 5 year old say "you don't know!"). So he says something like yes, I do know, my son says no you don't, how do you know, etc. Until finally my husband says, "Because I'm an adult." Even before that final line, his tone during the whole conversation was so authoritarian and harsh that it just made me cringe. Instead of really listening to him and responding to his question and working through it with him, he wanted to throw one word final answers at him and was mad when our son didn't get it and didn't accept his word as the answer without explanation.
It just seemed so anti-everything we have always talked about in regards to how we treat our children and what we want for our family. It was so disrespectful to our son as a person. I'm sure I don't have to explain here all the things I felt were so wrong about that conversation, but I do want to know how others would deal with this situation. Typically if I get involved in the moment, or try to direct the conversation in another way it leads to my husband and I fighting (part of me feels like this is okay sometimes, people fight--but part of me feels like our arguments escalate quickly and it doesn't feel like a very healthy thing to do in front of our children). On the other hand, I feel like staying out of it isn't very good for my son either and it breaks my heart to watch this kind of thing go on. Usually I try to talk to DH about it later, and after defending himself for a while he usually seems to get it, and I can tell he is really trying--but when he is frustrated or tired he reverts back to this kind of behavior. I definitely think he feels like he is owed something, like his children must respect him and listen to him and obey him (because that's how his parents treated him and gosh darn it, it's his turn now!). He knows logically that this isn't right or true, but in the moment he really struggles to live differently and to choose to react in a different way than his own parents did.
I guess I am just wondering if other people deal with this and how they deal with it, what do you do when your spouse doesn't get it? How do you handle these situations in the moment, and how do you handle them later?
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess I am just wondering if other people deal with this and how they deal with it, what do you do when your spouse doesn't get it? How do you handle these situations in the moment, and how do you handle them later?-=-
Instead of looking at the big picture, look at small bits of it.
I would advise the child instead of trying to change the dad right now. There's no good justification for his saying "you don't know," is there?
Instead of ragging on your husband, perhaps you could just make one suggestion to each of them, and then drop it entirely, and they might do better the next time.
Either by modeling or by VERY light suggestion, maybe you could make light of a response like "you don't know" with a response like "Oh! I thought I knew." or "Who knows, then?" Not in a mean way, but in a conversational and light way, inviting discussion or inviting more humor.
I would say to the child, if it were my child, that if he's going to ask someone's opinion, he shouldn't insult them.
Once a conversation goes bad, it's better to let it slide than to escalate and make it worse.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
If you set up an antagonistic relationship with your husband, then you can't win as a team. If you want to change the way he thinks or reacts, be careful with every word and look and sigh and response that you're not setting up a situation in which if he does it your way, you win and he loses.
It's not something you can fix all at once, but it's something that could get worse if you're not careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Instead of looking at the big picture, look at small bits of it.
I would advise the child instead of trying to change the dad right now. There's no good justification for his saying "you don't know," is there?
Instead of ragging on your husband, perhaps you could just make one suggestion to each of them, and then drop it entirely, and they might do better the next time.
Either by modeling or by VERY light suggestion, maybe you could make light of a response like "you don't know" with a response like "Oh! I thought I knew." or "Who knows, then?" Not in a mean way, but in a conversational and light way, inviting discussion or inviting more humor.
I would say to the child, if it were my child, that if he's going to ask someone's opinion, he shouldn't insult them.
Once a conversation goes bad, it's better to let it slide than to escalate and make it worse.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
If you set up an antagonistic relationship with your husband, then you can't win as a team. If you want to change the way he thinks or reacts, be careful with every word and look and sigh and response that you're not setting up a situation in which if he does it your way, you win and he loses.
It's not something you can fix all at once, but it's something that could get worse if you're not careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Your husband got irritated when his son was rude to him. I've done that. It's a
fair response, the irritation probably more than the words "I'm the adult." "I'm
the adult" can bite you in the butt soon enough. But in that moment maybe you
could have joined in early and said, "ohh, bug and hug rhyme" and swept your son
up in a big hug and danced him away from his tired and cranky dad.
Your son was wrong, bug and book don't rhyme. They begin with the same sound,
something which used to confuse both Simon and Linnaea. Your husband was right
and in that moment he was tired and maybe not as gentle as he would be in other
moments. Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like with
your son? Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like
with your husband? I do. Sometimes folks are less than they aspire to be. It
probably isn't a good moment to jump in and underscore that moment of less than.
Nor is it the moment to use when judging their overall parenting practice.
When I'm tired my ability to deal with stress or requests for something or
distractions are less than my ability is when I'm well rested. When David is
tired he tends to be shorter in his responses to me or Simon or Linnaea. Because
he trusts me, because he and I have been working in tandem for a long time, I
can ask, gently, if he is tired and he will recognise that he was being less
giving than he normally is. And it will change his flow, it will check his
tension. Maybe that would work? Maybe you could take your son and you and he
could go fix a fabulous breakfast with coffee and toast and eggs and bacon for
your husband while talking about rhyming words or books with bugs or bugs with
books. Move away from the moment of tension towards a moment of care and
affection and love.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fair response, the irritation probably more than the words "I'm the adult." "I'm
the adult" can bite you in the butt soon enough. But in that moment maybe you
could have joined in early and said, "ohh, bug and hug rhyme" and swept your son
up in a big hug and danced him away from his tired and cranky dad.
Your son was wrong, bug and book don't rhyme. They begin with the same sound,
something which used to confuse both Simon and Linnaea. Your husband was right
and in that moment he was tired and maybe not as gentle as he would be in other
moments. Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like with
your son? Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like
with your husband? I do. Sometimes folks are less than they aspire to be. It
probably isn't a good moment to jump in and underscore that moment of less than.
Nor is it the moment to use when judging their overall parenting practice.
When I'm tired my ability to deal with stress or requests for something or
distractions are less than my ability is when I'm well rested. When David is
tired he tends to be shorter in his responses to me or Simon or Linnaea. Because
he trusts me, because he and I have been working in tandem for a long time, I
can ask, gently, if he is tired and he will recognise that he was being less
giving than he normally is. And it will change his flow, it will check his
tension. Maybe that would work? Maybe you could take your son and you and he
could go fix a fabulous breakfast with coffee and toast and eggs and bacon for
your husband while talking about rhyming words or books with bugs or bugs with
books. Move away from the moment of tension towards a moment of care and
affection and love.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
railyuh
Sandra, thank you so much. I like the idea of giving them each one suggestion and then dropping it. It is also good to hear someone say that if a conversation goes bad, it is often better to let it slide. That is usually what I do these days, and then if I feel the need to say something I talk to DH privately later on. But I guess sometimes I feel bad. I have this urge to defend my son when I feel like he is being treated badly, but that definitely sets up an antagonistic relationship with my husband which I don't want to do at all.
I do often give a light response, like what you mentioned. Sometimes this really bothers my husband because he feels like I am dismissing the situation and "letting" my son be rude to him. Really I am trying to keep the moment light so that we can discuss whatever is happening without the conversation heading downhill very quickly. I want to be able to talk to my son when he says something rude or unkind, and for him keeping it light really does help. If I jump in immediately by telling my son that is a rude response, the conversation quickly spirals downward.
I am not trying to use this moment to judge his overall parenting practice. It is just one thing that happened recently that is a typical example of something we deal with a lot. I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think he is not a good parent. I do think my husband is a good dad and husband. That is also why I mentioned that he was very tired at the time because I knew that was affecting how he responded. I also know he has a lot to overcome with how he was raised (when we got married he still had the belt he was whipped with as a child, and at the time it was like a badge of honor for him). I know that I definitely have my moments where I use a tone I don't like with my son or my husband. I know I am not the parent I would like to be either. I know we are both working on this together. I am just looking for some advice on how to help my husband and my son and our relationship as a family. I have definitely learned that it is not the moment to jump in and tell my husband what he is doing wrong. My kids are young and this is new to me too (I wasn't raised quite the way my husband was, but still came from an authoritarian/punishment family) so I am still learning. I am really trying to be gentle with him and myself as we learn and figure this stuff out.
Thank you for the suggestion to jump in very early with something like, "bug and hug," rhyme and sweep him away. I do think that would be a good way to jump in and help and avoid the situation escalating. I sort of tried to do that this time, but I probably waited too long to do so, and hadn't thought about sweeping him away in a hug in that way, which would have helped my husband since I could recognize that he was tired and that was a big part of why he was responding that way. Instead I gave some examples of things that rhymed and then examples of more b-words/alliteration and he started responded with more b-words and laughing.
Sometime during this my DH walked out of the room (again, I think because he gets upset when I make light of a situation instead of "disciplining" my son about how he treated his dad? I'm still not sure what to do with that, because my husband doesn't agree with punishments so I'm not sure what he expects. If I ask him what he wants me to do or how he would like me to respond to these situations (later! not right at that moment) he doesn't have suggestions for me. He wants me to do something, but he isn't sure what. Past talking to my son about how to treat people kindly and doing my best to model that, what do I do? There's another question for everyone!.
I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual. I think that would be helpful for both of us to do with each other. I definitely like of us working together to change the flow, check the tension, and move toward a moment of love and affection. That is definitely what I want to do and have been trying to do, but I'm not always sure how to do it. Your suggestions are helpful.
Thanks to both of you! (and of course I welcome many more ideas)
-Annie
I do often give a light response, like what you mentioned. Sometimes this really bothers my husband because he feels like I am dismissing the situation and "letting" my son be rude to him. Really I am trying to keep the moment light so that we can discuss whatever is happening without the conversation heading downhill very quickly. I want to be able to talk to my son when he says something rude or unkind, and for him keeping it light really does help. If I jump in immediately by telling my son that is a rude response, the conversation quickly spirals downward.
> Your son was wrong, bug and book don't rhyme. They begin with the same sound,Schuyler,
> something which used to confuse both Simon and Linnaea. Your husband was right
> and in that moment he was tired and maybe not as gentle as he would be in other
> moments. Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like with
> your son? Do you ever say something or use a tone that you don't really like
> with your husband? I do. Sometimes folks are less than they aspire to be. It
> probably isn't a good moment to jump in and underscore that moment of less than.
> Nor is it the moment to use when judging their overall parenting practice.
I am not trying to use this moment to judge his overall parenting practice. It is just one thing that happened recently that is a typical example of something we deal with a lot. I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think he is not a good parent. I do think my husband is a good dad and husband. That is also why I mentioned that he was very tired at the time because I knew that was affecting how he responded. I also know he has a lot to overcome with how he was raised (when we got married he still had the belt he was whipped with as a child, and at the time it was like a badge of honor for him). I know that I definitely have my moments where I use a tone I don't like with my son or my husband. I know I am not the parent I would like to be either. I know we are both working on this together. I am just looking for some advice on how to help my husband and my son and our relationship as a family. I have definitely learned that it is not the moment to jump in and tell my husband what he is doing wrong. My kids are young and this is new to me too (I wasn't raised quite the way my husband was, but still came from an authoritarian/punishment family) so I am still learning. I am really trying to be gentle with him and myself as we learn and figure this stuff out.
Thank you for the suggestion to jump in very early with something like, "bug and hug," rhyme and sweep him away. I do think that would be a good way to jump in and help and avoid the situation escalating. I sort of tried to do that this time, but I probably waited too long to do so, and hadn't thought about sweeping him away in a hug in that way, which would have helped my husband since I could recognize that he was tired and that was a big part of why he was responding that way. Instead I gave some examples of things that rhymed and then examples of more b-words/alliteration and he started responded with more b-words and laughing.
Sometime during this my DH walked out of the room (again, I think because he gets upset when I make light of a situation instead of "disciplining" my son about how he treated his dad? I'm still not sure what to do with that, because my husband doesn't agree with punishments so I'm not sure what he expects. If I ask him what he wants me to do or how he would like me to respond to these situations (later! not right at that moment) he doesn't have suggestions for me. He wants me to do something, but he isn't sure what. Past talking to my son about how to treat people kindly and doing my best to model that, what do I do? There's another question for everyone!.
I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual. I think that would be helpful for both of us to do with each other. I definitely like of us working together to change the flow, check the tension, and move toward a moment of love and affection. That is definitely what I want to do and have been trying to do, but I'm not always sure how to do it. Your suggestions are helpful.
Thanks to both of you! (and of course I welcome many more ideas)
-Annie
Sandra Dodd
Also, be careful with this:
"What do you do when your spouse doesn't get it?"
"Getting it" comes in stages, like peeling an onion, and deciding to take another layer off, and under each one is a clean new one.
Assuming I totally "got it" and Keith didn't would have been wrong, when we were newer at unschooling. I had an idea and he had a different idea. Eventually as our own kids started learning cool things in unexpected ways, and as we relaxed together, over a couple of years of adjustment, Keith suddenly "got it" and would remind me when it seemed I had forgotten.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are some stories of people who thought they were solidly in the unschooling flow and then came another layer.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Those are important to remember, too.
Sandra
"What do you do when your spouse doesn't get it?"
"Getting it" comes in stages, like peeling an onion, and deciding to take another layer off, and under each one is a clean new one.
Assuming I totally "got it" and Keith didn't would have been wrong, when we were newer at unschooling. I had an idea and he had a different idea. Eventually as our own kids started learning cool things in unexpected ways, and as we relaxed together, over a couple of years of adjustment, Keith suddenly "got it" and would remind me when it seemed I had forgotten.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are some stories of people who thought they were solidly in the unschooling flow and then came another layer.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Those are important to remember, too.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have this urge to defend my son when I feel like he is being treated badly, but that definitely sets up an antagonistic relationship with my husband which I don't want to do at all. -=-
Even in describing it, you call him "my son."
-=-I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think he is not a good parent.-=-
In the same e-mail, you said you feel he treats your son badly.
-=- If I ask him what he wants me to do or how he would like me to respond to these situations (later! not right at that moment) he doesn't have suggestions for me. He wants me to do something, but he isn't sure what. Past talking to my son about how to treat people kindly and doing my best to model that, what do I do? There's another question for everyone!.-=-
You could say to your son, without accusation or threat in your voice, "Could you say that nicely?" or "Is there a nicer way to ask?" Maybe your son is tired and frustrated and at one moment there isn't, but at another moment (or next time) he might think of a nicer way to say it. And your husband would overhear you having responded to rudeness, and nicely, and he too will hear "is there a nicer way?" But say it to your son, not your husband, or else you defend your son AND reinforce his rudeness. It's two against one, then, and not a team of three.
-=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told you to) be kinder to him.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Even in describing it, you call him "my son."
-=-I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think he is not a good parent.-=-
In the same e-mail, you said you feel he treats your son badly.
-=- If I ask him what he wants me to do or how he would like me to respond to these situations (later! not right at that moment) he doesn't have suggestions for me. He wants me to do something, but he isn't sure what. Past talking to my son about how to treat people kindly and doing my best to model that, what do I do? There's another question for everyone!.-=-
You could say to your son, without accusation or threat in your voice, "Could you say that nicely?" or "Is there a nicer way to ask?" Maybe your son is tired and frustrated and at one moment there isn't, but at another moment (or next time) he might think of a nicer way to say it. And your husband would overhear you having responded to rudeness, and nicely, and he too will hear "is there a nicer way?" But say it to your son, not your husband, or else you defend your son AND reinforce his rudeness. It's two against one, then, and not a team of three.
-=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told you to) be kinder to him.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
-=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired
and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just
YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told
you to) be kinder to him.
Sandra
---------------------------
Absolutely. David and I have a long time of learning to parent together. His
personality is what it is and his response to me is part of that as well as a
part of our shared life history. Better to ignore my What if that would work?
and go to the second part of the paragraph. Move toward a moment of kindness
when someone needs kindness.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just
YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told
you to) be kinder to him.
Sandra
---------------------------
Absolutely. David and I have a long time of learning to parent together. His
personality is what it is and his response to me is part of that as well as a
part of our shared life history. Better to ignore my What if that would work?
and go to the second part of the paragraph. Move toward a moment of kindness
when someone needs kindness.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
Go gently. Just like your son, your husband is doing his best - and he doesn't Have a lot of warm fuzzy parenting skills just yet, so his best is going to lag a bit even if he's totally excited about the idea of unschooling on a theoretical level. Most dads don't start out totally excited, though - more often they start out cautious and a bit suspicious, not sure they buy all this hoo-haa about peace and love. He needs time and support. He needs to see how things work for you and think about how he can do something similar.
When my kids were younger and George liked the idea of unschooling in theory, I'd tell him stories of my day - what worked, what didn't, what was something fun we did, what flopped utterly... normal sorts of stories but the point was to make sure I told him something regularly. He wasn't getting the hours and hours of experience I was getting (in those days he worked outside the home, now I do) but he was able to think about situations outside the pressure of the moment, too, and there's an advantage to that. He seemed to learn very slowly at first and then everything clicked.
Sometimes its possible to diffuse a situation like that if you're right there - make a point about alliteration that lets them both save a bit of face, for instance, or call your son away with the remark that daddy's not awake enough yet, but you'll be happy to play a rhyming game. How that works is going to be about personalities, but also about agreements you and your husband have about how to deal with these kinds of situations.
It helped me and George to talk about "coming to the rescue" - when George is being an ass he wants me to rescue him (and whichever kid) but he doesn't want to be made to feel bad at the same time. He Knows things aren't going well and wants help! I feel the same way if I'm floundering around, stuffing my food deeper into my mouth at every moment or getting overly emotional - I want him to come bail me out.
Having a conversation about helping each other when we're obviously not having a great moment helped us both navigate thsoe kinds of situations, so it Feels like a rescue, not an implied criticism of the other's parenting.
Having a partner who is even theoretically on board with unschooling is a boon! Be sure you're letting him know you appreciate him and his hard work, both in terms of supporting you financially and also supporting your efforts, even if his support is still imperfect.
---Meredith
> I guess I am just wondering if other people deal with this and how they deal with it, what do you do when your spouse doesn't get it?********************
Go gently. Just like your son, your husband is doing his best - and he doesn't Have a lot of warm fuzzy parenting skills just yet, so his best is going to lag a bit even if he's totally excited about the idea of unschooling on a theoretical level. Most dads don't start out totally excited, though - more often they start out cautious and a bit suspicious, not sure they buy all this hoo-haa about peace and love. He needs time and support. He needs to see how things work for you and think about how he can do something similar.
When my kids were younger and George liked the idea of unschooling in theory, I'd tell him stories of my day - what worked, what didn't, what was something fun we did, what flopped utterly... normal sorts of stories but the point was to make sure I told him something regularly. He wasn't getting the hours and hours of experience I was getting (in those days he worked outside the home, now I do) but he was able to think about situations outside the pressure of the moment, too, and there's an advantage to that. He seemed to learn very slowly at first and then everything clicked.
>> For example, a few days ago my son (who is 5) was asking if some words rhymed, something like bug and book. My husband says no, they don't. My son replies with, "Yes, they do. How do you know?******************
Sometimes its possible to diffuse a situation like that if you're right there - make a point about alliteration that lets them both save a bit of face, for instance, or call your son away with the remark that daddy's not awake enough yet, but you'll be happy to play a rhyming game. How that works is going to be about personalities, but also about agreements you and your husband have about how to deal with these kinds of situations.
It helped me and George to talk about "coming to the rescue" - when George is being an ass he wants me to rescue him (and whichever kid) but he doesn't want to be made to feel bad at the same time. He Knows things aren't going well and wants help! I feel the same way if I'm floundering around, stuffing my food deeper into my mouth at every moment or getting overly emotional - I want him to come bail me out.
Having a conversation about helping each other when we're obviously not having a great moment helped us both navigate thsoe kinds of situations, so it Feels like a rescue, not an implied criticism of the other's parenting.
Having a partner who is even theoretically on board with unschooling is a boon! Be sure you're letting him know you appreciate him and his hard work, both in terms of supporting you financially and also supporting your efforts, even if his support is still imperfect.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
You could say to your son, without accusation or threat in your voice, "Could you say that nicely?" or "Is there a nicer way to ask?" Maybe your son is tired and frustrated and at one moment there isn't, but at another moment (or next time) he might think of a nicer way to say it. And your husband would overhear you having responded to rudeness, and nicely, and he too will hear "is there a nicer way?" But say it to your son, not your husband, or else you defend your son AND reinforce his rudeness. It's two against one, then, and not a team of three.
-=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told you to) be kinder to him.>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yes! It sounds like your husbands is feeling that you are always in your son's side and never on his side. That is not a great way to build a partnership. You all need to be partners. You all need to be in the same side.
I used to do similar stuff when my son was very young. Brian, my husband, felt very alone.
It help Brian to feel that he was important and that he mattered. That we were thinking about him.
It was even more important when we had a second child. My kids love each other and think about each other a lot.
I always said thinks about how dad worked so hard so they could get what they wanted and that it was nice to treat dad kindly.
I tell them how dad loves them more than anything all the time.
We are all on the same side now and we are all partners.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-
WRONG! That's talking about talking.
Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told you to) be kinder to him.>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yes! It sounds like your husbands is feeling that you are always in your son's side and never on his side. That is not a great way to build a partnership. You all need to be partners. You all need to be in the same side.
I used to do similar stuff when my son was very young. Brian, my husband, felt very alone.
It help Brian to feel that he was important and that he mattered. That we were thinking about him.
It was even more important when we had a second child. My kids love each other and think about each other a lot.
I always said thinks about how dad worked so hard so they could get what they wanted and that it was nice to treat dad kindly.
I tell them how dad loves them more than anything all the time.
We are all on the same side now and we are all partners.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
He could have felt judged, though, and that's important to keep in mind. It generally doesn't help learning to feel like one's performance is being graded and evaluated at every turn - that's as true of parents as it is of kids.
That's to be expected - its a really, really common stage of learning just about anything to realize there's probably a better way but not know what it is, yet. You could try brainstorming some ideas, but it can also be helpful to let him know they're things to try, to experiment with and that You don't have "the answers" necessarily, either.
In that particular moment, it might have helped your husband to hear something said directly to your son about his comment "you don't know". If your son says things like that regularly, its worth brainstorming some replies - something like "daddy knows all sorts of wonderful things" or even "your dad can't answer if you keep talking" said gently and humorously could help your husband feel like you're willing to stand up for him, too. That can prevent your husband from feeling like its you and your son against dad without it being parents against kid.
---Meredith
>> I am not trying to use this moment to judge his overall parenting practice.***************
He could have felt judged, though, and that's important to keep in mind. It generally doesn't help learning to feel like one's performance is being graded and evaluated at every turn - that's as true of parents as it is of kids.
>If I ask him what he wants me to do or how he would like me to respond to these situations (later! not right at that moment) he doesn't have suggestions for me. He wants me to do something, but he isn't sure what.*****************
That's to be expected - its a really, really common stage of learning just about anything to realize there's probably a better way but not know what it is, yet. You could try brainstorming some ideas, but it can also be helpful to let him know they're things to try, to experiment with and that You don't have "the answers" necessarily, either.
In that particular moment, it might have helped your husband to hear something said directly to your son about his comment "you don't know". If your son says things like that regularly, its worth brainstorming some replies - something like "daddy knows all sorts of wonderful things" or even "your dad can't answer if you keep talking" said gently and humorously could help your husband feel like you're willing to stand up for him, too. That can prevent your husband from feeling like its you and your son against dad without it being parents against kid.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
He could have felt judged, though, and that's important to keep in mind. It generally doesn't help learning to feel like one's performance is being graded and evaluated at every turn - that's as true of parents as it is of kids. >>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
Brian used to feel that he could never do anything right so what happened is that he stopped trying and was not as involved.
He was afraid he was going to be told he was not doing it right all the time.
Then I started reading unschooling groups and a year after that my second child was born and I let Brian and my son have their relationship without me butting in at every moment to tell him he was doing it wrong or rolling my eyes.
They did just fine and their relationship grew and blossomed. I was in the way before!!!!!!
MD adores his dad and they are close friends that love to play basketball together now.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I am not trying to use this moment to judge his overall parenting practice.***************
He could have felt judged, though, and that's important to keep in mind. It generally doesn't help learning to feel like one's performance is being graded and evaluated at every turn - that's as true of parents as it is of kids. >>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
Brian used to feel that he could never do anything right so what happened is that he stopped trying and was not as involved.
He was afraid he was going to be told he was not doing it right all the time.
Then I started reading unschooling groups and a year after that my second child was born and I let Brian and my son have their relationship without me butting in at every moment to tell him he was doing it wrong or rolling my eyes.
They did just fine and their relationship grew and blossomed. I was in the way before!!!!!!
MD adores his dad and they are close friends that love to play basketball together now.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/12/2011 7:23 PM, railyuh wrote:
hostile and rude, though. There are other ways to respond to rudeness,
but I was wondering why your son is acting like that toward your husband
in the first place.
I think it would be helpful to your husband if you acknowledged that
your son is being rude and that you want to help him do better. Then you
can be on the same team with your husband and figure out ways to support
your child. He doesn't want an adversarial relationship with his dad,
I'm sure, and it won't be just his dad who reacts negatively to him if
he is rude in his responses.
Some ideas: if my child responded that way, I'd possibly just move on
and not engage. I'd probably mumble something like, "I guess..." or some
other completely meaningless thing and just move away. I might say,
"Don't ask me questions and then be rude when I answer." I might say,
"You won't get very many questions answered if you act like that."
I had a time period with one of my kids where she would ask a question
and then say, "I know." Strongly. Really, she either didn't know and
that's why she asked OR she sort of thought she might know and was
seeking confirmation. I remember telling her (not at the moment, but
at other times), "People will stop telling you things if you always say,
"I know" to them like that."
I also remember telling her, "If you want questions answered, then I
want to be listened to and responded to nicely. So when I answer a
question what would be really appreciated would be if you'd say
something nice like "Interesting," or "Cool," or "Thanks," OR even, if
you disagree, you could say, "I don't think that's true." Anything as
long as it is said nicely.
-pam
> he wanted to throw one word final answers at him and was mad when ourYour rendition of what your son said to your husband sounded really
> son didn't get it and didn't accept his word as the answer without
> explanation.
hostile and rude, though. There are other ways to respond to rudeness,
but I was wondering why your son is acting like that toward your husband
in the first place.
I think it would be helpful to your husband if you acknowledged that
your son is being rude and that you want to help him do better. Then you
can be on the same team with your husband and figure out ways to support
your child. He doesn't want an adversarial relationship with his dad,
I'm sure, and it won't be just his dad who reacts negatively to him if
he is rude in his responses.
Some ideas: if my child responded that way, I'd possibly just move on
and not engage. I'd probably mumble something like, "I guess..." or some
other completely meaningless thing and just move away. I might say,
"Don't ask me questions and then be rude when I answer." I might say,
"You won't get very many questions answered if you act like that."
I had a time period with one of my kids where she would ask a question
and then say, "I know." Strongly. Really, she either didn't know and
that's why she asked OR she sort of thought she might know and was
seeking confirmation. I remember telling her (not at the moment, but
at other times), "People will stop telling you things if you always say,
"I know" to them like that."
I also remember telling her, "If you want questions answered, then I
want to be listened to and responded to nicely. So when I answer a
question what would be really appreciated would be if you'd say
something nice like "Interesting," or "Cool," or "Thanks," OR even, if
you disagree, you could say, "I don't think that's true." Anything as
long as it is said nicely.
-pam
railyuh
> -=-I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think he is not a good parent.-=-I should have said that I feel that he sometimes treats our son badly, and I could further clarify that to say that sometimes I do as well. I definitely don't think he is a bad parent and it's not like I think I am perfect and have it all together in every moment.
>
> In the same e-mail, you said you feel he treats your son badly.
> But say it to your son, not your husband, or else you defend your son AND reinforce his rudeness. It's two against one, then, and not a team of three.Thank you, that is really helpful. I guess it sounds simple now that I hear you say it that way, but I do honestly struggle with how to respond in these situations.
> -=-I'm going to talk to my husband about your suggestion to ask if he is tired and recognizing that he is being less giving than usual.-=-I didn't mean to come across as if I was going to go to him and say so-and-so suggested this and when you are tired you are less giving. What I meant was that there are times when this would be helpful for me as well and I was thinking it might be good for us to have a discussion about how we can do this for each other. I think I see what you mean about how instead of talking to him about the suggestion, I should just act when I think this is happening and be kinder to him. I guess I thought it would be helpful to talk to him about it for both of us, sort of inviting him to step in when I am tired (or whatever my issues is at the moment) and asking him to give me a gentle reminder during those times as well.
>
> WRONG! That's talking about talking.
> Instead of talking to him about Schuyler's suggestion to ask if he's tired, just YOU think "he might be tired," and then YOU (not someone else by name who told you to) be kinder to him.
railyuh
> Then I started reading unschooling groups and a year after that my second child was born and I let Brian and my son have their relationship without me butting in at every moment to tell him he was doing it wrong or rolling my eyes.Thank you. This is definitely something I am learning and I have been trying to step back a lot more when these kinds of things come up. Sometimes I feel like it is just better if I leave the room and let him handle it because if I am there and the conversation makes me agitated, they both pick up on that at some level and it probably just makes it worse. I guess I struggle with knowing when to help, and when to step back and walk away. I know that sometimes he does want my help, and sometimes he doesn't (or my help isn't always very helpful). I guess I have a lot of learning to do about when and how to step in and help, and when I need to just let go and not butt in and get in the way.
> They did just fine and their relationship grew and blossomed. I was in the way before!!!!!!
railyuh
> It helped me and George to talk about "coming to the rescue" - when George is being an ass he wants me to rescue him (and whichever kid) but he doesn't want to be made to feel bad at the same time. He Knows things aren't going well and wants help! I feel the same way if I'm floundering around, stuffing my food deeper into my mouth at every moment or getting overly emotional - I want him to come bail me out.This is something we have talked about for both of us as well. I guess I am struggling with when and how to "come to the rescue" without making it worse or making him feel like I am criticizing him. There have been a lot of really helpful suggestions here. It is really helpful to hear suggestions for actual phrases or actions to take. I think I need to see/hear really concrete examples like some of you have given so that I can think through how I can better respond in the future (even though specific examples/suggestions won't apply to every situation, it is still really helpful to get me thinking about my response).
> Having a conversation about helping each other when we're obviously not having a great moment helped us both navigate thsoe kinds of situations, so it Feels like a rescue, not an implied criticism of the other's parenting.
> Having a partner who is even theoretically on board with unschooling is a boon! Be sure you're letting him know you appreciate him and his hard work, both in terms of supporting you financially and also supporting your efforts, even if his support is still imperfect.Yes, thank you! I am very thankful that he is on board with unschooling and not just that he is okay with it, but that this is really what he wants for our family. He's not just going along with it because this is where I am, it is where he is at too. We just have trouble (both of us) living it out to varying degrees when it comes to actually living this way since it is pretty foreign to both of us compared to how we were raised. I do need to show my appreciation for him more openly and directly. Thank you for that reminder.
railyuh
> Your rendition of what your son said to your husband sounded reallyIn the last few weeks he's started saying things like-- you don't know, don't tell me what to do, I can do whatever I want. He is almost always saying this to my husband. He may have said these things to me too but I can't recall any specifically. All I can think of is that in the past my husband wanted more limits on things like computer games and certain foods and we did that for a long time. About a month ago we started talking about it again and agreed to let go of those limits and try another way. But I wonder if Josh has picked up on it that dad has a harder time saying yes than mom? We've never presented it as a daddy vs. mommy thing, but it is something we have talked about privately and I was more ready to say yes while he was more unsure about it. My husband now wants to say yes and he is saying yes, but I guess sometimes he is a bit reluctant about that and Josh probably picks up on that. Maybe Josh is reacting to that in some way, asserting that he gets to make that choice?
> hostile and rude, though. There are other ways to respond to rudeness,
> but I was wondering why your son is acting like that toward your husband
> in the first place.
It seems strange that now that he isn't being told what to do in these areas, he is saying things like "don't tell me what to do", though maybe that is normal when going through a transition like this? It is not like we sat him down and said, "hey, you can now eat whatever your want and do whatever you want!" It's not something he's heard from us directly at all. We just decided that we would start saying yes to these things and not make a big to-do about it all. Those types of statements definitely have my husband questioning whether we should start limiting those things again because of these kinds of responses. Sometimes he feels like Josh's behavior has gotten a lot worse since we gave up those limits (like him saying those kinds of rude things, or yelling at us and he does yell at both of us, not just my husband). I have encouraged him to give it more time because we had those limits for so long that it is going to take a while to work this all out, and he is willing but having a hard time with it (and it is hard for me to, to see him talk that way to anyone but especially his dad). I have been trying to point out specific examples to him to show him some of the positive things happening since we let go of those limits since he doesn't get to be home all day and doesn't always get to see that part of it and I know that has been helpful to him.
> I think it would be helpful to your husband if you acknowledged that your son is being rude and that you want to help him do better. Then you can be on the same team with your husband and figure out ways to support your child. He doesn't want an adversarial relationship with his dad, I'm sure, and it won't be just his dad who reacts negatively to him if he is rude in his responses.Yes, I'm sure I need to be better at this. I do talk to him about how saying things like that is rude, and we talk about treating each other kindly and gently. Maybe I do so too hesitantly? When I talk to him about these things I try to bring him in close, hugging or holding him if he wants and talk to him quietly about what he has said and talking about how it might make another person feel, etc. I think sometimes my husband wants a more firm response, something like, "Stop being rude, don't talk to your father that way," etc. So when I pull my son into my lap and say something instead of standing up and giving a more firm response, he feels like I am coddling our son instead of correcting him--does that make sense? I think a lot of it has to do with tone of voice as well. Even if I use the same words he would use, but I say it quietly instead of being loud, he thinks I am not being firm enough.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"Stop being rude, don't talk to your father that way,"
-=-=-=
If someone was being rude to your son wouln;t you say that to the person?
I have said to my kids "Hey that is not a nice way to talk to ..."
I have said to other kids " Heydon';t talk to my kid like that, it is not nice"
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=
If someone was being rude to your son wouln;t you say that to the person?
I have said to my kids "Hey that is not a nice way to talk to ..."
I have said to other kids " Heydon';t talk to my kid like that, it is not nice"
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===So when I pull my son into my lap and say something instead of standing up and giving a more firm response, he feels like I am coddling our son instead of correcting him--does that make sense? I think a lot of it has to do with tone of voice as well. Even if I use the same words he would use, but I say it quietly instead of being loud, he thinks I am not being firm enough.===
Unschooling doesn't mean never using a stern tone of voice.
Unschooling doesn't mean it's okay to be rude or disrespectful.
Unschooling *isn't* doing whatever you want.
My son's generally pretty sweet to me, but there have been moments when he's been rude to me and I absolutely call him on it. I don't often have cause to use a stern tone of voice with him, but when he's rude to me, I do use that voice and tell him bluntly, "That's not cool." And that's all it takes. It doesn't turn into a lecture; it doesn't need to. If I used my usual voice in those instances, it wouldn't have the same impact.
It does a disservice to your son if he expects he can be rude to others. Other kids will not want to play with him. Other parents will not want to have him over to their house.
It also does a disservice to him for him to think he can do whatever he wants. If his father feels the rude behavior is a result of unschooling, he could certainly insist your son go to school.
Glenda
Unschooling doesn't mean never using a stern tone of voice.
Unschooling doesn't mean it's okay to be rude or disrespectful.
Unschooling *isn't* doing whatever you want.
My son's generally pretty sweet to me, but there have been moments when he's been rude to me and I absolutely call him on it. I don't often have cause to use a stern tone of voice with him, but when he's rude to me, I do use that voice and tell him bluntly, "That's not cool." And that's all it takes. It doesn't turn into a lecture; it doesn't need to. If I used my usual voice in those instances, it wouldn't have the same impact.
It does a disservice to your son if he expects he can be rude to others. Other kids will not want to play with him. Other parents will not want to have him over to their house.
It also does a disservice to him for him to think he can do whatever he wants. If his father feels the rude behavior is a result of unschooling, he could certainly insist your son go to school.
Glenda
Sarah
My mother was very much in between my father and me when I was a child. She only wanted the best and she thought she was protecting me, because my dad can be quite a harsh judge and quite sarcastic. In fact I was better able to deal with that than she thought, his scarcasm hurt her feelings and she thought I must feel as bad, but actually I mostly just accepted it as his way. It would have been better to know that she would help me it I was upset. In fact I wouldn't have talked to her about any upsets because it would have invited more interference.
She thought she could make our relationship good by managing it for us. In fact it has meant that our relationship still goes through her even now. I love my dad but we're not that close, tending to be more like friends while my mum handles the parent stuff. I've had to gently shove her out from between my dad and my sons too. For myself I have been careful to trust the man I married to love and try with his children, just like I do.
The relationship between two people, bar extremes, is their business- you can offer advice or support from outside but you shouldn't get in the middle of it.
Sxx
"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
She thought she could make our relationship good by managing it for us. In fact it has meant that our relationship still goes through her even now. I love my dad but we're not that close, tending to be more like friends while my mum handles the parent stuff. I've had to gently shove her out from between my dad and my sons too. For myself I have been careful to trust the man I married to love and try with his children, just like I do.
The relationship between two people, bar extremes, is their business- you can offer advice or support from outside but you shouldn't get in the middle of it.
Sxx
"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Then I started reading unschooling groups and a year after that my second child was born and I let Brian and my son have their relationship without me butting in at every moment to tell him he was doing it wrong or rolling my eyes.
> > They did just fine and their relationship grew and blossomed. I was in the way before!!!!!!
>
> Thank you. This is definitely something I am learning and I have been trying to step back a lot more when these kinds of things come up. Sometimes I feel like it is just better if I leave the room and let him handle it because if I am there and the conversation makes me agitated, they both pick up on that at some level and it probably just makes it worse. I guess I struggle with knowing when to help, and when to step back and walk away. I know that sometimes he does want my help, and sometimes he doesn't (or my help isn't always very helpful). I guess I have a lot of learning to do about when and how to step in and help, and when I need to just let go and not butt in and get in the way.
>
railyuh
> Unschooling doesn't mean never using a stern tone of voice.I know this, and it isn't that I never use a stern voice or that I think it is okay for him to be rude. I do address it, but I do it in my own way which is often by pulling him close and speaking to him about it quietly. I feel like my son responds better to me when I do it this way. He seems to be very sensitive to tone of voice and when I speak sternly to him, he gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out of control.
>
> Unschooling doesn't mean it's okay to be rude or disrespectful.
>
> Unschooling *isn't* doing whatever you want.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I am sort of getting the feeling that some feel it is wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness? I'm not saying it IS wrong to do it that way, but between me and my son saying it to him quietly seems to work better for us. I do think it would be wrong not to address it at all and I don't want him to think he can be rude or unkind to anyone without some consequences and driving other people away.
> It also does a disservice to him for him to think he can do whatever he wants. If his father feels the rude behavior is a result of unschooling, he could certainly insist your son go to school.I am not worried about him insisting on our son going to school. My husband doesn't want that at all. Sometimes he is more unsure about limits and radical unschooling (as I mentioned in another post, things like food, computers/video games) so I could see him insisting on that again in the future and I definitely don't want that either, but school isn't an issue on the radar right now.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I am sort of getting the feeling that some
feel it is wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness? I'm not
saying it IS wrong to do it that way, but between me and my son saying it to him
quietly seems to work better for us. I do think it would be wrong not to address
it at all and I don't want him to think he can be rude or unkind to anyone
without some consequences and driving other people away. -=-
I'm not clear (having read that twice) what exactly you mean.
If you communicate with your son that way, he mibht not be clear what you mean,
either.
You have words between you and direct thought/communication, so I'm guessing you
might have words between your thoughts and expressions when you speak to your
family. For example: "I am sort of getting the feeling that some feel it is
wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness"
Sort of? Some feel it is wrong? You have the feeling some feel it is wrong?
Too many words.
And it's not "when addressing an issue of rudeness." It's responding
(physically, verbally, emotionally) to REAL, immediate rudeness, not the idea of
the construct of the issue of rudeness.
When the child is rude--yells, insults--you're not dealing with an issue of
rudeness. You are in that second giving him a message by the way you respond.
If you draw him near and speak softly to him, you seem to be saying "poor you"
and not "What the hell!?" BUT... it might be that he's communicating as
clearly as he can before he gets to the point of yelling and others aren't
paying attention. A range of things are possible factors. But you wrote
" between me and my son saying it to him
quietly seems to work better for us," yet he's yelling at you and your husband?
It doesn't seem to be working well.
There aren't just two extremes--punishment or stroking and soft voices. In the
middle might be some regular interpersonal things like "Why are you yelling?"
(said without yelling).
If a neighbor came in yelling, how would you respond? Your mom? A stranger? I
would AT LEAST say "Stop yelling." If they insisted on yelling, I would
probably say "If you can't be quiet, get out." If you're accepting abusive
behavior, that's a problem. Someone on your team is being abusive, and someone
on your team is being abused.
Sandra
Sandra
feel it is wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness? I'm not
saying it IS wrong to do it that way, but between me and my son saying it to him
quietly seems to work better for us. I do think it would be wrong not to address
it at all and I don't want him to think he can be rude or unkind to anyone
without some consequences and driving other people away. -=-
I'm not clear (having read that twice) what exactly you mean.
If you communicate with your son that way, he mibht not be clear what you mean,
either.
You have words between you and direct thought/communication, so I'm guessing you
might have words between your thoughts and expressions when you speak to your
family. For example: "I am sort of getting the feeling that some feel it is
wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness"
Sort of? Some feel it is wrong? You have the feeling some feel it is wrong?
Too many words.
And it's not "when addressing an issue of rudeness." It's responding
(physically, verbally, emotionally) to REAL, immediate rudeness, not the idea of
the construct of the issue of rudeness.
When the child is rude--yells, insults--you're not dealing with an issue of
rudeness. You are in that second giving him a message by the way you respond.
If you draw him near and speak softly to him, you seem to be saying "poor you"
and not "What the hell!?" BUT... it might be that he's communicating as
clearly as he can before he gets to the point of yelling and others aren't
paying attention. A range of things are possible factors. But you wrote
" between me and my son saying it to him
quietly seems to work better for us," yet he's yelling at you and your husband?
It doesn't seem to be working well.
There aren't just two extremes--punishment or stroking and soft voices. In the
middle might be some regular interpersonal things like "Why are you yelling?"
(said without yelling).
If a neighbor came in yelling, how would you respond? Your mom? A stranger? I
would AT LEAST say "Stop yelling." If they insisted on yelling, I would
probably say "If you can't be quiet, get out." If you're accepting abusive
behavior, that's a problem. Someone on your team is being abusive, and someone
on your team is being abused.
Sandra
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"I speak sternly to him, he gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out of control."
-=-=-=-
When I tell my child something like " Hey that is not a nice way to talk to ..." I say it in a "matter of fact" voice not a soft "sing songy" voice.
Maybe you are reading that a "stern" voice is loud or angry but that is not what I am saying.
Not that sometimes I don't use a louder sterner voice if necessary to stop somthing but those are very rarely used or needed.
-=-=-=-
When I tell my child something like " Hey that is not a nice way to talk to ..." I say it in a "matter of fact" voice not a soft "sing songy" voice.
Maybe you are reading that a "stern" voice is loud or angry but that is not what I am saying.
Not that sometimes I don't use a louder sterner voice if necessary to stop somthing but those are very rarely used or needed.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"railyuh" <railyuh@...> wrote:
Is that something you've talked about with your husband? If not, find a way to let him know! If y'all have talked about this, it might help to remind him from time to time - maybe indirectly. It seems like *he* may be sensitive to tone of voice, too, but in a different way. You're dealing with a pair of touchy personalities! That could make it easier for them to get along without your "help" though - its something to watch and think about, maybe ask your husband how things go when you're not around. If they're both being reactive, your peacemaking could be getting in the way - that sounds backwards, but someone else gave an example of a child finding that mom's "help" wasn't very helpful in terms of getting along with dad. I've seen that with both my kids, too, in some ways. Ray and George can snipe at each other and not take it personally. Mo and George can snarl at each other and realize they both need some space without my input. If I get involved, it confuses things - now they have to deal with Me, too!
It isn't so much a matter of "use a firm tone" or not as looking for ways to help everyone feel on the same team. Some moms go overboard when learning about unschooling and peaceful parenting and avoid ever being firm on the theory that its somehow not peaceful and that can turn around and bite them on the behind as kids get confused and overwhelmed by not knowing a good choice from a bad one.
What will help in any given moment is so situational that its good to think about having a set of useful options, rather than A Way to handle this or that situation. Sometimes a swoop and hug will work wonders. Sometimes a bit of humor can bring the sun back out. Sometimes stating "please and thank you" will be enough to remind someone to be polite. And sometimes stepping in with confidence and a firm tone will help someone (child or adult) remember which choices are the better ones.
---Meredith
> it isn't that I never use a stern voice or that I think it is okay for him to be rude. I do address it, but I do it in my own way which is often by pulling him close and speaking to him about it quietly. I feel like my son responds better to me when I do it this way. He seems to be very sensitive to tone of voice and when I speak sternly to him, he gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out of control.******************
Is that something you've talked about with your husband? If not, find a way to let him know! If y'all have talked about this, it might help to remind him from time to time - maybe indirectly. It seems like *he* may be sensitive to tone of voice, too, but in a different way. You're dealing with a pair of touchy personalities! That could make it easier for them to get along without your "help" though - its something to watch and think about, maybe ask your husband how things go when you're not around. If they're both being reactive, your peacemaking could be getting in the way - that sounds backwards, but someone else gave an example of a child finding that mom's "help" wasn't very helpful in terms of getting along with dad. I've seen that with both my kids, too, in some ways. Ray and George can snipe at each other and not take it personally. Mo and George can snarl at each other and realize they both need some space without my input. If I get involved, it confuses things - now they have to deal with Me, too!
> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I am sort of getting the feeling that some feel it is wrong to not be stern when addressing an issue of rudeness?*******************
It isn't so much a matter of "use a firm tone" or not as looking for ways to help everyone feel on the same team. Some moms go overboard when learning about unschooling and peaceful parenting and avoid ever being firm on the theory that its somehow not peaceful and that can turn around and bite them on the behind as kids get confused and overwhelmed by not knowing a good choice from a bad one.
What will help in any given moment is so situational that its good to think about having a set of useful options, rather than A Way to handle this or that situation. Sometimes a swoop and hug will work wonders. Sometimes a bit of humor can bring the sun back out. Sometimes stating "please and thank you" will be enough to remind someone to be polite. And sometimes stepping in with confidence and a firm tone will help someone (child or adult) remember which choices are the better ones.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=- I guess I thought it would be helpful to talk to him about it for both of us, sort of inviting him to step in when I am tired (or whatever my issues is at the moment) and asking him to give me a gentle reminder during those times as well.-=-
Too much talking. If you start paying attention to when he's tired and cut him slack, it will help you pay attention to when you're tired, and you can be more cautious and mindful in those times. He shouldn't need an invitation to "step in" when you're tired or have an issue. It shouldn't need to be a gentle reminder. The way it's worded above sounds very much controlling. You want to set the parameters, and tell him how you're going to act, and how you want him to act.
If you change the way you act and react, it will change everything.
Sandra
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Too much talking. If you start paying attention to when he's tired and cut him slack, it will help you pay attention to when you're tired, and you can be more cautious and mindful in those times. He shouldn't need an invitation to "step in" when you're tired or have an issue. It shouldn't need to be a gentle reminder. The way it's worded above sounds very much controlling. You want to set the parameters, and tell him how you're going to act, and how you want him to act.
If you change the way you act and react, it will change everything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===I do address it, but I do it in my own way which is often by pulling him close and speaking to him about it quietly.===
If your husband was rude and disrespectful to you, would you pull your husband close and speak about it quietly?
If someone was rude and disrespectful to your son, would you pull that person close and speak about it quietly?
These are rhetorical questions, not questions to answer on-list.
When your son is rude and disrespectful to your husband and you pull your son into your lap and comfort him, rather than your son seeing that it's *not* okay for your husband, your partner, to be disrespected and hurt, your son is seeing that not only is it okay for that to happen but he (your son) will be the one who receives your comfort, not the person who he's hurt.
===He seems to be very sensitive to tone of voice and when I speak sternly to him, he gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out of control.===
My son is also very sensitive to tone of voice, especially of my and my husband's tone of voice. That's why when I say, "That's not cool" in a stern (not yelling, but stern) tone of voice, it has a noticeable impact. He doesn't hear that voice often, so when he hears it, he HEARS it. It stops him in his tracks, and that stop is enough for him to shift gears.
The pulling close and speaking softly comes at a point AFTER that.
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. It doesn't have to be yelling and lecturing, but nor does it have to be cuddling and softness. In the middle is, "Stop" or "That's not cool" or "No more of that", said firmly.
===but school isn't an issue on the radar right now.===
Right now. If your son continues to be rude and disrespectful towards his father, that could change seemingly on a dime.
The point I was attempting to make is that when your son tells his father, "I can do what I want," your son is not understanding that, no, he cannot. His father absolutely could insist he attend school.
If your husband perceives that you are being supportive towards your son's rude and disrespectful behaviors, rather than supporting your husband when he's the person being hurt and disrespected, what is that going to do for your and your husband's relationship?
If unschooling comes to feel to your husband to be something that's creating a fissure within your marriage and within the familial relationship as a whole, unschooling will go away.
If you want to preserve unschooling within your family, find ways to do so so that ALL family members feel supported and heard.
Glenda
If your husband was rude and disrespectful to you, would you pull your husband close and speak about it quietly?
If someone was rude and disrespectful to your son, would you pull that person close and speak about it quietly?
These are rhetorical questions, not questions to answer on-list.
When your son is rude and disrespectful to your husband and you pull your son into your lap and comfort him, rather than your son seeing that it's *not* okay for your husband, your partner, to be disrespected and hurt, your son is seeing that not only is it okay for that to happen but he (your son) will be the one who receives your comfort, not the person who he's hurt.
===He seems to be very sensitive to tone of voice and when I speak sternly to him, he gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out of control.===
My son is also very sensitive to tone of voice, especially of my and my husband's tone of voice. That's why when I say, "That's not cool" in a stern (not yelling, but stern) tone of voice, it has a noticeable impact. He doesn't hear that voice often, so when he hears it, he HEARS it. It stops him in his tracks, and that stop is enough for him to shift gears.
The pulling close and speaking softly comes at a point AFTER that.
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. It doesn't have to be yelling and lecturing, but nor does it have to be cuddling and softness. In the middle is, "Stop" or "That's not cool" or "No more of that", said firmly.
===but school isn't an issue on the radar right now.===
Right now. If your son continues to be rude and disrespectful towards his father, that could change seemingly on a dime.
The point I was attempting to make is that when your son tells his father, "I can do what I want," your son is not understanding that, no, he cannot. His father absolutely could insist he attend school.
If your husband perceives that you are being supportive towards your son's rude and disrespectful behaviors, rather than supporting your husband when he's the person being hurt and disrespected, what is that going to do for your and your husband's relationship?
If unschooling comes to feel to your husband to be something that's creating a fissure within your marriage and within the familial relationship as a whole, unschooling will go away.
If you want to preserve unschooling within your family, find ways to do so so that ALL family members feel supported and heard.
Glenda
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 14, 2011, at 7:54 AM, railyuh wrote:
it's wrong. Second is knowing what to do instead. Third is being able
to do the better thing.
My guess is when you talk to him you're trying to do all 3. That's
what most parents try to do when they respond to wrong behavior.
But break it down and handle them as separate issues. To do better he
needs to know that what he says is rude even if he can't do parts 2
and 3. If you're gently pulling him aside, it may not seem like he's
actually hurt someone. if he continued to hit a friend I'm assuming
you wouldn't speak calmly to him each time.
No one's suggesting you shame him. Use whatever words work for him to
give him some immediate feedback that what he's done is not cool. What
people are concerned is that some unschooled kids aren't getting
feedback on their behavior to help them make better choices. A tower
of blocks falls when an added piece shifts its center of balance too
far. That's immediate feedback. From that kids can figure out from
what works and what doesn't how to make a tower stable. (Or fall if
that's their goal. ;-) Social interactions are more complex than a
tower of blocks. If a child isn't getting a connection between someone
getting mad and what they've said or done, they need help. Help
understanding what they're doing. Help finding a better way. Or help
getting out of the situation until they're able to do better.
Joyce
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> I do address it, but I do it in my own way which is often byWell, there's three parts to a wrong reaction. First is knowing that
> pulling him close and speaking to him about it quietly. I feel like
> my son responds better to me when I do it this way. He seems to be
> very sensitive to tone of voice and when I speak sternly to him, he
> gets upset and often responds by yelling and it can often spiral out
> of control.
it's wrong. Second is knowing what to do instead. Third is being able
to do the better thing.
My guess is when you talk to him you're trying to do all 3. That's
what most parents try to do when they respond to wrong behavior.
But break it down and handle them as separate issues. To do better he
needs to know that what he says is rude even if he can't do parts 2
and 3. If you're gently pulling him aside, it may not seem like he's
actually hurt someone. if he continued to hit a friend I'm assuming
you wouldn't speak calmly to him each time.
No one's suggesting you shame him. Use whatever words work for him to
give him some immediate feedback that what he's done is not cool. What
people are concerned is that some unschooled kids aren't getting
feedback on their behavior to help them make better choices. A tower
of blocks falls when an added piece shifts its center of balance too
far. That's immediate feedback. From that kids can figure out from
what works and what doesn't how to make a tower stable. (Or fall if
that's their goal. ;-) Social interactions are more complex than a
tower of blocks. If a child isn't getting a connection between someone
getting mad and what they've said or done, they need help. Help
understanding what they're doing. Help finding a better way. Or help
getting out of the situation until they're able to do better.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It seems strange that now that he isn't being told what to do in these areas, he is saying things like "don't tell me what to do", though maybe that is normal when going through a transition like this?-=-
I don't think it's normal.
Is it possible you've said "I'm not going to tell you what to do, do what you want to?"
Parents lose the opportunity to say "yes!" a thousand times during their transition. And if it's yes only some percentage of the time, it's still a lot of yes.
http://sandradodd.com/gradual change
Maybe talk to your son and say that you or his dad CAN tell him what to do, but your deciding to let him have his way more, and he should be nicer about the times when it's not a quick yes. It bothers me when new unschoolers use phrases like "giving him his freedom." Freedom isn't a given, nor an absolute. If it's treated as a right or a natural state, that can cause more unhappiness than happiness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think it's normal.
Is it possible you've said "I'm not going to tell you what to do, do what you want to?"
Parents lose the opportunity to say "yes!" a thousand times during their transition. And if it's yes only some percentage of the time, it's still a lot of yes.
http://sandradodd.com/gradual change
Maybe talk to your son and say that you or his dad CAN tell him what to do, but your deciding to let him have his way more, and he should be nicer about the times when it's not a quick yes. It bothers me when new unschoolers use phrases like "giving him his freedom." Freedom isn't a given, nor an absolute. If it's treated as a right or a natural state, that can cause more unhappiness than happiness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-No one's suggesting you shame him. Use whatever words work for him to
give him some immediate feedback that what he's done is not cool. What
people are concerned is that some unschooled kids aren't getting
feedback on their behavior to help them make better choices. A tower
of blocks falls when an added piece shifts its center of balance too
far. That's immediate feedback. From that kids can figure out from
what works and what doesn't how to make a tower stable. (Or fall if
that's their goal. ;-) Social interactions are more complex than a
tower of blocks. If a child isn't getting a connection between someone
getting mad and what they've said or done, they need help. Help
understanding what they're doing. Help finding a better way. Or help
getting out of the situation until they're able to do better.-=-
Some unschooling parents seem to be telling the child "I cannot believe those blocks fell when you put them up *so* carefully. Blocks are awful, aren't they?"
When someone has an honest negative reaction to your child's behavior, if you hug the child and say the other person was awful, it can be a little like blaming blocks for falling.
The other extreme would be to do what my mom did and simply say "It serves you right" and walk away.
Avoid extremes. Go for what is compassionate and sensible and will make the next time clearer and better.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
give him some immediate feedback that what he's done is not cool. What
people are concerned is that some unschooled kids aren't getting
feedback on their behavior to help them make better choices. A tower
of blocks falls when an added piece shifts its center of balance too
far. That's immediate feedback. From that kids can figure out from
what works and what doesn't how to make a tower stable. (Or fall if
that's their goal. ;-) Social interactions are more complex than a
tower of blocks. If a child isn't getting a connection between someone
getting mad and what they've said or done, they need help. Help
understanding what they're doing. Help finding a better way. Or help
getting out of the situation until they're able to do better.-=-
Some unschooling parents seem to be telling the child "I cannot believe those blocks fell when you put them up *so* carefully. Blocks are awful, aren't they?"
When someone has an honest negative reaction to your child's behavior, if you hug the child and say the other person was awful, it can be a little like blaming blocks for falling.
The other extreme would be to do what my mom did and simply say "It serves you right" and walk away.
Avoid extremes. Go for what is compassionate and sensible and will make the next time clearer and better.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
railyuh
> -=-It seems strange that now that he isn't being told what to do in these areas, he is saying things like "don't tell me what to do", though maybe that is normal when going through a transition like this?-=-No, I really don't think we've said anything like that. When we decided to let go of these limits it was through private conversation between my husband and me. And we never made any announcement about ending any of the rules/limits, but decided that we would say yes more and specifically avoided things like telling him he can do whatever he wants. We have really approached this from the idea of saying yes more, not making announcements about no more limits or rules or routine. I can definitely see how doing that could lead to a lot of unhappiness and a feeling of uncertainty for our kids, not knowing what to expect when all of that is suddenly gone.
>
> I don't think it's normal.
> Is it possible you've said "I'm not going to tell you what to do, do what you want to?"
Also, sometimes he says things like "don't tell me what to do!" when being asked a question. For examples, if my husband asks if he'd like eggs for breakfast (because it is one of his favorite things for breakfast), he'll react that way. I'm not sure what that is about. I have wondered if he's picked up those phrases from hearing them somewhere else but I honestly don't have a guess as to where he would have heard it. The thought has crossed our minds though.
> Maybe talk to your son and say that you or his dad CAN tell him what to do, but your deciding to let him have his way more, and he should be nicer about the times when it's not a quick yes.Thanks, the way you phrased that is really helpful. That's something we've had a hard time getting across to him. I think because we specifically wanted to avoid saying "do whatever you want", it has been hard to explain that while we can tell him what to do, we don't want to tell him what to do all the time and want him to be able to make his own choices more and more.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, sometimes he says things like "don't tell me what to do!" when being asked a question. For examples, if my husband asks if he'd like eggs for breakfast (because it is one of his favorite things for breakfast), he'll react that way.-=-
Maybe ask him "Why do you think I'm telling you what to do?" or "How would you rather I would ask you?" or maybe you can figure out how it is the questions are coming across in an irritating way (if they are).
Asking him to explain (if he can; maybe he can't) why he's responded that way might be helpful, but not demanding an explanation or analyzing it. Just making one move. You say eggs, he says don't, you say what? he says.... something, or nothing, but it's not worth fighting about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe ask him "Why do you think I'm telling you what to do?" or "How would you rather I would ask you?" or maybe you can figure out how it is the questions are coming across in an irritating way (if they are).
Asking him to explain (if he can; maybe he can't) why he's responded that way might be helpful, but not demanding an explanation or analyzing it. Just making one move. You say eggs, he says don't, you say what? he says.... something, or nothing, but it's not worth fighting about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]