sashaviasasha

The other morning my son and I must have walked between the yoga center and our house about eleven times. He was unsure whether he wanted to go or not. At one point, when it was too late to enter the group, we returned home and he was very upset, hitting our house and saying he hated it and crying passionately. He wanted to see his friends. The children all called his name when he arrived last week and clustered around him. Also, later this summer the group will be doing outside events like picnics and so I do want to cultivate this as an opportunity for us.

I felt terrible going home and missing the group but couldn't risk a similar fit at the natural parenting support group after so much going back and forth about attending. We couldn't walk back and forth between our home and the yoga center all day. Finally I just took him home. There is a massage room and chiro office in the building and it is quiet. We've enjoyed the group in the past but the children are expected to be a little subdued, sitting and playing quietly, so moms can meet and talk. My son liked the group, we discovered it after an chiro appointment. He heard children's voices in the yoga center and we went upstairs to investigate. The week after we went back. It went all right but the expectation was voiced that he would eventually learn the rules and be quiet, too.

This week I thought his ambivalence might have come from thinking about the rules and expectations the group has. I had to remind him of these expectations, which are also voiced by the groups leader. For example, we have to leave "Batman" at home, which means both the batman persona and the cape cannot come. We can't take any toys which cause him to get over-excited. Though it is subtle, I feel my son's choices are not supported. For example, many of the parents in the group want to shield their children from "commerical characters" like batman. No one in the group has said we could not bring our toys but my son cannot play with his action toys in the atmosphere of the group.

I am confirmed somewhat in my analysis by my son this morning when we went to the same building for chiropractic. He wanted to take batman and several other figures, almost as though to say, "where they are not welcome, neither am I." (I am finding other places where his choices are validated. Last night we stumbled across a video from a comic shop where they introduced the new themes. My son listened with rapt attention to the entire video cast and I could see he was excited to hear about characters and other trivia that was familiar to him. Especially as the panel was all adults taking the subject quite seriously.)

I'm going to continue to offer the group to my son and as the summer wears on I'm going to try maybe to just attend the after group activities. My worry is that I should be doing more to help him feel confident. Maybe if I was more confident? I do feel defensive about our lifestyle sometimes and there isn't a lot of external validation for it in the community we live in right now. Are we doomed to be social pariahs?

Last night again he cried about missing his friends in the group. How can I help him? We discussed it several times the day before and he got ready quite eagerly. I wonder if he'd wished I'd "taken charge" and taken him to the group. I do feel he would enjoy the group if he could be himself. We walked back and forth (it's not far) as he changed his mind. I let him change his mind multiple multiple times if he wishes. Each time we changed directions I supported his choice. But eventually I had to take him home.

I have written a short piece on the subject of choices. I will post it separately. It is my thinking on the importance of letting my son change his mind. Since unschooling is about choices I'd love feedback on it...

But in the meantime, how do you support a three-year old in making choices, changing his mind, and then sometimes missing out on an opportunity? How can we learn to enjoy opportunities that aren't perhaps a perfect fit while we try to find more suitable ones?

There is a lot jumbled here together and I apologize. If I had more time I'd edit it down.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

For me it sounds like he wants to be around more children and this may feel like his only opportunity.
Are you getting together with other children other than this particular group?
If he is feeling like this is his only opportunity to be with other kids and at the same time the group is not a great fit for his personality then it can explain why he is feeling conflicted about it.
Find other kids that love batman and action figures. Find places , a park , so he does not have to be quiet. So he can run around with friends  carrying his batman around and having fun.
 

Alex Polikowsky

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Robin Bentley

> Last night again he cried about missing his friends in the group.
> How can I help him?

Maybe you could invite his friends to your house, where he can be his
noisy Batman self.

> I have written a short piece on the subject of choices. I will post
> it separately. It is my thinking on the importance of letting my son
> change his mind. Since unschooling is about choices I'd love
> feedback on it...
>
> But in the meantime, how do you support a three-year old in making
> choices, changing his mind, and then sometimes missing out on an
> opportunity? How can we learn to enjoy opportunities that aren't
> perhaps a perfect fit while we try to find more suitable ones?

Omigosh, he's only 3? I think maybe you talked too much to him. Next
time, make his life right then as fun and enjoyable as possible. Three
years old is too young to put the burden of that kind of choice on
him. Be his partner and help him.

My sense is that you might have been encouraging him to go and be
someone other than himself, in order that he would be able to join the
group. Is that because you wanted to go to yoga and you wanted him to
go along to make it easier for you? You can't make him "learn to enjoy
opportunities" if he's unhappy being there.

Yoga centers are not places for lively 3 year olds. Attachment
parenting groups that expect quiet from toddlers (if that's indeed
what they expect - I'm not sure) wouldn't be a good fit, either. Maybe
look for activities and groups where your son can feel okay to be who
he is, not change his actions and interests to fit other's.

Robin B.

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 3, 2011, at 12:26 PM, sashaviasasha wrote:

> But in the meantime, how do you support a three-year old in making
> choices, changing his mind, and then sometimes missing out on an
> opportunity?

He's 3. He doesn't have a lot to base decisions on. He doesn't have a
great grasp of what he likes and doesn't like about something. His
pros and cons of the group are probably all jumbled together and come
out as yes and no.

Rather than trying to change who he is at the moment, accept that he
will have conflicting feelings. In fact if he doesn't have strong
emotions, those conflicting feelings may last for many years. And the
best you can do is not pile choices on him and not pressure him. If
he's flailing then rescue him. Say "Let's go out for ice cream and to
the park," or something you know he loves to do.

> How can we learn to enjoy opportunities that aren't perhaps a
> perfect fit while we try to find more suitable ones?

Accept who his is right now rather than seeking ways to change him.

I know you want to help him, but a really big part of helping him is
seeing who he is rather than who you want him to be. I know you want
him to be happy so that sounds wrong! But, look at it this way:
*you're* the one limiting him to what you want him to be happy about.
Help him find *something* that he'll be happy doing in this moment,
find something even better that what you're trying to get him to
enjoy. Open up the possibilities rather than limiting them. But right
now, if he has problems choosing, it's the compassionate thing to do
the directing. Be aware of giving him choices, but also be aware that
he may not want to choose. He may want exciting things planned for him
so all he has to do is go.

Joyce

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aldq75

-=-He may want exciting things planned for him so all he has to do is go.-=-

I agree! My kids are a bit older and sometimes they want to change what I've planned, but they usually like my suggestions. They often ask to go to local parks or the beach, but it's up to me to find new adventures beyond our normal outings.

Andrea Q

otherstar

From: sashaviasasha
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] difficulty with choices

>>>The other morning my son and I must have walked between the yoga center and our house about eleven times.<<<<

After the first couple of times, I would have suggested an alternative. It can be hard to choose between two things that you don't want to do. It sounds as if his only options were stay home or go to the yoga center. In those cases, I try to offer a third or fourth alternative that my kids will probably want to do.

>>>This week I thought his ambivalence might have come from thinking about the rules and expectations the group has.<<<

If he is only 3, he probably doesn't remember the rules and expectations. His ambivalence may come from the fact that he is only being given two choices and neither of them are very appealing.

>>>I'm going to continue to offer the group to my son and as the summer wears on I'm going to try maybe to just attend the after group activities. My worry is that I should be doing more to help him feel confident. Maybe if I was more confident? I do feel defensive about our lifestyle sometimes and there isn't a lot of external validation for it in the community we live in right now. Are we doomed to be social pariahs? <<<

Why are you so caught up in the group? If you really want to do yoga, then find a time to do yoga when somebody else can be with your son. I have found that continually being offered something feels like pressure. If I tell somebody that I don't want the piece of chocolate (or whatever it is) they are offering and they continue to offer it, I get a little annoyed. First off, I feel like nobody heard me. Second, I feel like there is no choice because I know I will continue to be badgered (even if it is a sweet, continual offer) unless I take whatever it is that is being offered.

>>>Last night again he cried about missing his friends in the group. How can I help him? We discussed it several times the day before and he got ready quite eagerly. I wonder if he'd wished I'd "taken charge" and taken him to the group.<<<

It sounds like you are in the mindset that it has to be the group or nothing. What about finding a different group with different friends?

>>>But in the meantime, how do you support a three-year old in making choices, changing his mind, and then sometimes missing out on an opportunity? How can we learn to enjoy opportunities that aren't perhaps a perfect fit while we try to find more suitable ones?<<<

A three year old has a very limited world view. They change their minds a lot. I have found that my little ones would rather stay home and play something engaging with me than go out and have to navigate social situations. They love to go shopping or to the park too. It doesn't have to be an organized group. I have spent the morning playing Insaniquarium with my 2 year old and 4 year old and they absolutely love it. I am writing this while waiting to kill aliens. Whenever we have gotten stumped looking for something that is a better fit, we tend to retreat from the groups and find fun stuff to do on our own. An engaged mom (or dad or other adult) that will sit down and play with a young child goes a long way.

Also, if the opportunity is truly enjoyable, it won't matter if you get to be yourself. It won't matter how "suitable" it is. My 6 year old has recently decided to go to church with her dad and has joined the church choir. Personally, it is not something that I would have thought of but she decided to join her dad one day and now she refuses to miss. She has to behave and can't run or talk or be her boisterous self but that doesn't seem to bother her because there is something that she enjoys about it that makes it all worth while. My younger two will sometimes ask to go with my husband and 6 year old. Most of the time, we say no because we know that they are not capable of sitting quietly for an hour or so without disturbing others. It doesn't matter how much they want to go. I know that it is beyond their ability. If your 3 year old is not capable of following the rules at yoga class, then consider finding something else to do until he is capable of following the rules and expectations.

Connie




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Sandra Dodd

I liked Robin's post, but I'm going to quibble about this part:

-=-Maybe
look for activities and groups where your son can feel okay to be who
he is, not change his actions and interests to fit other's.-=-

It can be a problem when a parent talks to much to or about a kid about "who he is," as though wearing a batman cape is "who he is," instead of something he likes to do sometimes.

There are different ways to be and act in different times and places, and everyone should accept and deal with that. I avoid places where makeup and high heels would be required. I don't swim, either. But that still leaves quite a range of social situations requiring different clothing and levels of activity, noise, singing or silence.

That said, three is still way too young for something quiet, I think.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=- My 6 year old has recently decided to go to church with her dad and has joined the church choir. Personally, it is not something that I would have thought of but she decided to join her dad one day and now she refuses to miss. She has to behave and can't run or talk or be her boisterous self but that doesn't seem to bother her because there is something that she enjoys about it that makes it all worth while. My younger two will sometimes ask to go with my husband and 6 year old. Most of the time, we say no because we know that they are not capable of sitting quietly for an hour or so without disturbing others. It doesn't matter how much they want to go. I know that it is beyond their ability. -=-

Sometimes could you hire an older kid to go with them so they could hear part of the rehearsal and then go out and play outside? This seems to be another situation where it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Sandra

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otherstar

From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] difficulty with choices

>>>Sometimes could you hire an older kid to go with them so they could hear part of the rehearsal and then go out and play outside? This seems to be another situation where it doesn't have to be all or nothing.<<<

We have found some work arounds. Choir practice is in a separate building so my husband will sometimes take the two little ones with them. My 4 year old has taken her DS and played with it while her big sister is practicing. If the 2 year old goes, they will run around outside and play with rocks and dirt. Whether it is all or nothing usually depends on how my husband is feeling.

Actual church is different. My husband has taken the 4 year old if he is feeling good and the 4 year old is well fed, well rested, and having a good day. He has also chosen to take one of the little ones if he thinks they will go to sleep. Also, we give our 6 year old a say in whether or not she wants her little sisters to go to church with them because the 2 little ones can be very distracting. If they do not go with dad and sister, I try to find something fun to do at home such as make cookies, get out a game, or go for a drive. Since my husband has the option of Saturday night church or Sunday morning church, he will often choose Sunday morning so that he and our 6 year old can go to church and be back before the two little ones ever wake up.

Connie

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Robin Bentley

>
> -=-Maybe
> look for activities and groups where your son can feel okay to be who
> he is, not change his actions and interests to fit other's.-=-
>
> It can be a problem when a parent talks to much to or about a kid
> about "who he is," as though wearing a batman cape is "who he is,"
> instead of something he likes to do sometimes.

Good point. Bad writing <g>.

I was thinking that a kid who likes Batman capes and running around
wouldn't be a good fit (at 3) for a quiet yoga center. That is
something he likes to do, not who he is.
>
> There are different ways to be and act in different times and
> places, and everyone should accept and deal with that. I avoid
> places where makeup and high heels would be required. I don't
> swim, either. But that still leaves quite a range of social
> situations requiring different clothing and levels of activity,
> noise, singing or silence.

Yes, absolutely. And putting a kid in a situation where he's bound to
fail isn't helpful, especially when they're little. For Senna, as she
got older, she understood what was expected in certain situations. She
could even choose to challenge herself to do what was expected or to
avoid a place until she felt ready. That wasn't about capes or things
she wanted to do. It was what was developmentally appropriate for
*her*. I needed to be aware of what was a good fit and what might not
work yet.
>
> That said, three is still way too young for something quiet, I think.

I found that I had unreasonable expectations about what my child could
manage. I saw other calm, easygoing children and wondered why she
wasn't that way. Why couldn't she just sit there quietly and happily?
I tried more exposure to those kinds of situations; it didn't make it
easier at all.

I had to look at my child to see what she was capable of, instead of
comparing her to other kids and wishing she would be "more like them."

Robin B.

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 3, 2011, at 12:26 PM, sashaviasasha wrote:

> I have written a short piece on the subject of choices. I will post
> it separately. It is my thinking on the importance of letting my son
> change his mind. Since unschooling is about choices I'd love
> feedback on it...

It helps greatly not to think of what your child needs in general
terms of what children need or what's good for children. Your child is
unique. What children need can be a good beginning point, but your
child is the best expert on what he needs. (Though not necessarily an
expert on how to meet the need!)

For example, choice is good. It's good for kids. It's good for adults!

But each child is unique in what they want that choice to feel like.
Out of the hundreds and hundreds of books we read she probably picked
out maybe 1 out of every hundred. (Not counting authors or series she
decided she liked from those I picked.) She would sometimes choose
which to read but was often content to let me choose. And I totallly
get that! When my husband asks me what I want for Mothers Day or
birthday meal I've been known to say "I want to not to have to choose!"

Let your son be your guide. If letting him change his mind is
stressing him out, then be more mindful of how you handle choices for
him. Give him what *he* needs rather than what children need.

Joyce

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Joyce Fetteroll

On May 3, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> Out of the hundreds and hundreds of books we read she probably picked
> out maybe 1 out of every hundred.

She = Kathryn

Obvious to anyone who knows I only have one, but confusing to anyone
else! ;-)

Joyce

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Sasha ViaSasha

Thanks to all that replied. I had a major shift yesterday in my thinking. I
think I'd drifted into passivity, mistaking it for partnership. I was stuck
in an either/ or.

I've been having these profound shifts but then I don't seem to notice I'm
drifting until I'm so far gone that I can't even see the simplest things. I
am amazed at the ruts I'm discovering in my own mind, and how easy it is to
settle back into them. I have to keep resetting.

Will it get easier? Will my mind find a new groove?


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Sandra Dodd

-=-Thanks to all that replied. I had a major shift yesterday in my thinking. I
think I'd drifted into passivity, mistaking it for partnership. I was stuck
in an either/ or.-=-

If you're hiking with a less experienced hiker who's counting on you to be the more experienced partner, when you're on flat ground it's fine to passively let him lead. If you're following a stream, it's probably no big deal which side you hike on, or whether you cross here, or there. But if you get up into canyons and there are dark clouds in the sky, the more experienced partner has a responsibility to see to the safety of both hikers. So it's not the same behavior or reaction-level all the time. If he's doing something that doesn't hurt anything or anyone, passive is fine. Danger is danger, though.

-=-I've been having these profound shifts but then I don't seem to notice I'm
drifting until I'm so far gone that I can't even see the simplest things. I
am amazed at the ruts I'm discovering in my own mind, and how easy it is to
settle back into them. I have to keep resetting.-=-

It sounds like you're making one decision and then coasting for a long time.
There are decisions to make many times a day. On a slow day, sunny, flat ground, maybe only half a dozen. Canyons and dark clouds, things going faster, a deadline for getting back to town.... maybe hundreds of decisions in just a few hours.

-=-Will it get easier? Will my mind find a new groove?-=-

Making decisions will get easier, sure!
If your mind finds a new groove, it will just be another rut, right? :-)

Sandra



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Lisa E Biesemeyer

"If you're hiking with a less experienced hiker who's counting on you to be the
more experienced partner, when you're on flat ground it's fine to passively let
him lead. If you're following a stream, it's probably no big deal which side
you hike on, or whether you cross here, or there. But if you get up into
canyons and there are dark clouds in the sky, the more experienced partner has
a responsibility to see to the safety of both hikers. So it's not the same
behavior or reaction-level all the time. If he's doing something that doesn't
hurt anything or anyone, passive is fine. Danger is danger, though."

My husband is struggling with partnership with our almost 5yo daughter: how much
to lead; how much to follow; how to go together. I have forwarded this analogy
to him. He thinks in analogies, so this will, I hope, be very useful. Thanks,
Sandra.

Lisa B

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plaidpanties666

Sasha ViaSasha <sashaviasasha@...> wrote:
>I
> am amazed at the ruts I'm discovering in my own mind, and how easy it is to
> settle back into them. I have to keep resetting.
>
> Will it get easier? Will my mind find a new groove?

Do you make exactly the same choices for exactly the same reasons that you did ten years ago? I'm guessing not, you've learned new things along the way and found different "grooves".

When I'm working on changing something about myself it helps me to think about how I learn. It can take time and practice for something new to become easy rather than a struggle and usually I have a sort of "plateau" in my learning right when I know what I want but have to struggle my way there each time. The past few days I've been learning new crochet stitches and feeling it there, but its true with thoughts and reactions, too. I'll jump to my old reaction, catch myself, fumble my way to a better choice, and reassure myself that its all part of the process.

The goal of unschooling isn't necessarily to form better grooves, though, depending on what you mean by that. It's good when you realize that your knee-jerk reactions are kinder than they used to be - that's a better kind of groove. It's good when you find you can think of more alternatives quickly, too. Those are things that take practice but get easier. So if that's what you're asking, then Yes.

But kids don't stay the same, so you can't depend on just falling into some kind of parenting groove where you always say the same things and get the same reaction. There aren't any "once and for all" solutions because kids change and situations change.

This is getting a little off the specific topic, but sometimes when parents ask "when am I going to get in a groove?" they already have one, it just isn't very comfortable because mom is expecting a groove or routine or flow to look a certain way. I'm thinking about young children and transitions, in particular - its not uncommon for a toddler to go through a rough patch with transitions, where most transitions are just plain hard for the child. While there are ways to make transitions easier, "easier" is also relative. Soothing a crying child is a better transition than getting frustrated at a crying child. Picking up a crying, overwhelmed child gently and carrying him home may be better and easier on the child if it allows him to calm down someplace safe.

---Meredith