Out of the batcave...into the light?
sashaviasasha
Reading the turn off the TV thread has triggered some of my fears about media, despite some of the obvious absurdities, isn't that funny? My son just turned three. We don't have a television in our house, but we have internet and laptops and we watch dvds, netflix and you tube. I actually just cancelled netflix as we are sick of the watch instantly selections and with nicer weather can walk daily to the library to pick new dvds. We're relatively new to our area so our library dvd selection is largely untapped.
I don't know how batman first came into our lives. Sometimes we buy a shirt or a plate that has a picture on it, sometimes we get a DVD at the library, or we just hear about something, We get on the internet, surf around, and see what we can find. My son loves heroic figures. The first one he loved was Don Quixote, we had gotten a DVD and he rode around on his pole horse with his foam sword shouting "Dulcinia, I am here to save you!" He loves underdog very much as well. But Batman has been his favorite. No one else is ever allowed to enact batman but him, which of course is fine with us. We have a batman cape, and I've put in many hours as robin and catwoman. We've made a shadowpuppet theatre with all of the figures from the television program, The Batman. We've managed without television to watch this program many, many times and we all actually enjoy it. i think it is nicely drawn and stunningly colorized, and there are some ironies that my DH and I appreciate. Its themes, on the other hand, do cause me some concern. Batman, the hero, is also a wealthy industrialist with little or no relationships or connection to the world around him except through his masked identity. I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter-- I do not think my son appreciates all of that. However, this is being drilled into his head at an age when he has no critical capacity to defend himself. Also a concern, for me, is the ever-present good/bad identity that I see in many of these shows. Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthy psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes it...
In the thread about turning off the television someone cited the Waldorf teachers concern about a camera lens coming between a child and the world too soon. I am not so concerned about this, but I worry in exactly the same way about narrative. Is narrative obscuring the world for my son, what attitudes is this narrative tracing in his young mind, what other facets our world could it be potentially blinding him to?
Many of our other activities have become batman themed. I often introduce batman themed activities In our play because it so delights my son. Our shadowpuppet theate has a cast of superheros and villians from all different shows. I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows. I like that we've seen so many different batmans via the amazing internet, but I am worried that my son will be limited by these core narratives. narrative is what causes us to select from the vast stimuli, to choose what to preference and notice.
Many days go by with no shows at all, we spend entire days outside in our yard, playing with sand or in the water table, working on the garden, and reading in our tent. My son has chosen to take numerous books out to our thin mesh tent and it has become a reading room. Of course, I have the same fears with books as I do with media, concerns about narrative. I do not think I am bringing these fears into my play with my son, I am somehow able to suspend disbelief. Probably because my son is so adorable and funny I really love playing with him! Nor are my concerns all about batman, or necessarily related to the violence of those shows. we wrestle and play fight with our very physical son and always have.
We were playing at our water table last week, adding colors and leaves and dirt and grass and mixing things up. He started calling me scientist mommy and talking about doing experiments, like we'd seen on the Backyardigans. i worry--is he experiencing the tactile expereince, feeling the textures, the sunlight on the water, etc. if he is preoccupied with playing a role? I fear something is being lost!
I don't restrict my son, we will even watch the same show multiple times if he requests. He sometimes requests a particular scene. I know he is doing this in order to get the part down better, as he is able to imitate the characters very well. But he is also totally enamored with the heroic figure in all its forms and told me the other day that he wants to protect me and save me. I hugged him and told him I feel the same way. The other day he asked me after his nap (did he have a dream I wonder?) if there are bad things in the world. When I admitted, mildly, that there were, he said, in a voice with trembling with emotion, that he would fight those things. I don't know what to think of this. When he's frightened by something he slips on his batman gloves and is brave. Sometimes he is very timid and whispers...is this the real child beneath all the barman bravado? Is all of this playacting, with dh and I following his cues, healthy? Please help!
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your time in reading and responding!
Sasha
I don't know how batman first came into our lives. Sometimes we buy a shirt or a plate that has a picture on it, sometimes we get a DVD at the library, or we just hear about something, We get on the internet, surf around, and see what we can find. My son loves heroic figures. The first one he loved was Don Quixote, we had gotten a DVD and he rode around on his pole horse with his foam sword shouting "Dulcinia, I am here to save you!" He loves underdog very much as well. But Batman has been his favorite. No one else is ever allowed to enact batman but him, which of course is fine with us. We have a batman cape, and I've put in many hours as robin and catwoman. We've made a shadowpuppet theatre with all of the figures from the television program, The Batman. We've managed without television to watch this program many, many times and we all actually enjoy it. i think it is nicely drawn and stunningly colorized, and there are some ironies that my DH and I appreciate. Its themes, on the other hand, do cause me some concern. Batman, the hero, is also a wealthy industrialist with little or no relationships or connection to the world around him except through his masked identity. I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter-- I do not think my son appreciates all of that. However, this is being drilled into his head at an age when he has no critical capacity to defend himself. Also a concern, for me, is the ever-present good/bad identity that I see in many of these shows. Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthy psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes it...
In the thread about turning off the television someone cited the Waldorf teachers concern about a camera lens coming between a child and the world too soon. I am not so concerned about this, but I worry in exactly the same way about narrative. Is narrative obscuring the world for my son, what attitudes is this narrative tracing in his young mind, what other facets our world could it be potentially blinding him to?
Many of our other activities have become batman themed. I often introduce batman themed activities In our play because it so delights my son. Our shadowpuppet theate has a cast of superheros and villians from all different shows. I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows. I like that we've seen so many different batmans via the amazing internet, but I am worried that my son will be limited by these core narratives. narrative is what causes us to select from the vast stimuli, to choose what to preference and notice.
Many days go by with no shows at all, we spend entire days outside in our yard, playing with sand or in the water table, working on the garden, and reading in our tent. My son has chosen to take numerous books out to our thin mesh tent and it has become a reading room. Of course, I have the same fears with books as I do with media, concerns about narrative. I do not think I am bringing these fears into my play with my son, I am somehow able to suspend disbelief. Probably because my son is so adorable and funny I really love playing with him! Nor are my concerns all about batman, or necessarily related to the violence of those shows. we wrestle and play fight with our very physical son and always have.
We were playing at our water table last week, adding colors and leaves and dirt and grass and mixing things up. He started calling me scientist mommy and talking about doing experiments, like we'd seen on the Backyardigans. i worry--is he experiencing the tactile expereince, feeling the textures, the sunlight on the water, etc. if he is preoccupied with playing a role? I fear something is being lost!
I don't restrict my son, we will even watch the same show multiple times if he requests. He sometimes requests a particular scene. I know he is doing this in order to get the part down better, as he is able to imitate the characters very well. But he is also totally enamored with the heroic figure in all its forms and told me the other day that he wants to protect me and save me. I hugged him and told him I feel the same way. The other day he asked me after his nap (did he have a dream I wonder?) if there are bad things in the world. When I admitted, mildly, that there were, he said, in a voice with trembling with emotion, that he would fight those things. I don't know what to think of this. When he's frightened by something he slips on his batman gloves and is brave. Sometimes he is very timid and whispers...is this the real child beneath all the barman bravado? Is all of this playacting, with dh and I following his cues, healthy? Please help!
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your time in reading and responding!
Sasha
Sandra Dodd
-=-Reading the turn off the TV thread has triggered some of my fears about media, despite some of the obvious absurdities, isn't that funny-=-
Not funny.
Deschooling takes a long time, for adults, and must be consciously pursued.
Every word you use, every thought, is either getting warmer (regarding coming to a deep understanding of natural learning) or getting cold (moving you away from unschooling and toward fears and schoolish thinking).
-=- I actually just cancelled netflix as we are sick of the watch instantly selections...-=-
"Sick of"?
Too strong. Too emotional.
New selections are added all the time.
-=- My son loves heroic figures. The first one he loved was Don Quixote, we had gotten a DVD and he rode around on his pole horse with his foam sword shouting "Dulcinia, I am here to save you!" He loves underdog very much as well. But Batman has been his favorite.-=-
I think you would be comforted and excited to read some of what Gerard Jones has written about these things. There are things online, but he wrote a book called Killing Monsters: Why Children NEED Fantasy, Super Heroes, and Make-Believe Violence.
Something free and quick: http://sandradodd.com/people/kathyward/gerardjones
That book (and there are some inexpensive used copies):
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_2
-=- No one else is ever allowed to enact batman but him, which of course is fine with us. We have a batman cape-=-
Above you said "We are sick of..." and now "We have a batman cape."
This might seem very minor to you, but it might help for you to listen for such things. If you're not differentiating between you and your child (and he is very young, I know), it will make it harder for you to separate your concerns from his reality.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not funny.
Deschooling takes a long time, for adults, and must be consciously pursued.
Every word you use, every thought, is either getting warmer (regarding coming to a deep understanding of natural learning) or getting cold (moving you away from unschooling and toward fears and schoolish thinking).
-=- I actually just cancelled netflix as we are sick of the watch instantly selections...-=-
"Sick of"?
Too strong. Too emotional.
New selections are added all the time.
-=- My son loves heroic figures. The first one he loved was Don Quixote, we had gotten a DVD and he rode around on his pole horse with his foam sword shouting "Dulcinia, I am here to save you!" He loves underdog very much as well. But Batman has been his favorite.-=-
I think you would be comforted and excited to read some of what Gerard Jones has written about these things. There are things online, but he wrote a book called Killing Monsters: Why Children NEED Fantasy, Super Heroes, and Make-Believe Violence.
Something free and quick: http://sandradodd.com/people/kathyward/gerardjones
That book (and there are some inexpensive used copies):
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_2
-=- No one else is ever allowed to enact batman but him, which of course is fine with us. We have a batman cape-=-
Above you said "We are sick of..." and now "We have a batman cape."
This might seem very minor to you, but it might help for you to listen for such things. If you're not differentiating between you and your child (and he is very young, I know), it will make it harder for you to separate your concerns from his reality.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm going to untangle some of this knot:
-=- We've managed without television to watch this program many, many times and we all actually enjoy it. i think it is nicely drawn and stunningly colorized, and there are some ironies that my DH and I appreciate. Its themes, on the other hand, do cause me some concern. Batman, the hero, is also a wealthy industrialist with little or no relationships or connection to the world around him except through his masked identity. I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter-- I do not think my son appreciates all of that. However, this is being drilled into his head at an age when he has no critical capacity to defend himself. Also a concern, for me, is the ever-present good/bad identity that I see in many of these shows. Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthy psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes it...-=-
-=-we all actually enjoy it-=-
That surprises you. By saying you "actually" enjoy it, you're implying that you didn't want to, and didn't expect to. And in a large way, you don't. So you're not being honest with yourself.
-=- I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter...-=-
Apparently it DOES matter, to you, in your head, where it's darker than Batman-world, because you wrote:
"this is being drilled into his head...when he has no...capacity to defend himself."
-=-In the thread about turning off the television someone cited the Waldorf teachers concern about a camera lens coming between a child and the world too soon. I am not so concerned about this, but I worry in exactly the same way about narrative. Is narrative obscuring the world for my son, what attitudes is this narrative tracing in his young mind, what other facets our world could it be potentially blinding him to? -=-
Please rephrase this without using the term "narrative." I think you are quoting or reciting, and not communicating directly.
What are you afraid of?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- We've managed without television to watch this program many, many times and we all actually enjoy it. i think it is nicely drawn and stunningly colorized, and there are some ironies that my DH and I appreciate. Its themes, on the other hand, do cause me some concern. Batman, the hero, is also a wealthy industrialist with little or no relationships or connection to the world around him except through his masked identity. I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter-- I do not think my son appreciates all of that. However, this is being drilled into his head at an age when he has no critical capacity to defend himself. Also a concern, for me, is the ever-present good/bad identity that I see in many of these shows. Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthy psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes it...-=-
-=-we all actually enjoy it-=-
That surprises you. By saying you "actually" enjoy it, you're implying that you didn't want to, and didn't expect to. And in a large way, you don't. So you're not being honest with yourself.
-=- I could speak at length about my objections to the shows premise but it doesn't matter...-=-
Apparently it DOES matter, to you, in your head, where it's darker than Batman-world, because you wrote:
"this is being drilled into his head...when he has no...capacity to defend himself."
-=-In the thread about turning off the television someone cited the Waldorf teachers concern about a camera lens coming between a child and the world too soon. I am not so concerned about this, but I worry in exactly the same way about narrative. Is narrative obscuring the world for my son, what attitudes is this narrative tracing in his young mind, what other facets our world could it be potentially blinding him to? -=-
Please rephrase this without using the term "narrative." I think you are quoting or reciting, and not communicating directly.
What are you afraid of?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthy psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes it...-=-
Don't think so much. Seriously. You've spun three-year-old learning into a bunch of big words and fears and negativity.
Don't think of his play as ANY kind of "psychological construct." If a child likes The Three Little Pigs and is glad when the wolf doesn't eat them, is that "a psychological construct"?
Please, when you're writing for this list, try to use your own words and your own thoughts. Unless you can see your child directly, and not through layers of other people's warnings and words, you will be BE with him. He will be with Batman, and you will be with the voices in your head that are talking about the danger of narrative, and of unhealthy psychological constructs.
http://sandradodd.com/being
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don't think so much. Seriously. You've spun three-year-old learning into a bunch of big words and fears and negativity.
Don't think of his play as ANY kind of "psychological construct." If a child likes The Three Little Pigs and is glad when the wolf doesn't eat them, is that "a psychological construct"?
Please, when you're writing for this list, try to use your own words and your own thoughts. Unless you can see your child directly, and not through layers of other people's warnings and words, you will be BE with him. He will be with Batman, and you will be with the voices in your head that are talking about the danger of narrative, and of unhealthy psychological constructs.
http://sandradodd.com/being
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sasha ViaSasha
> -=-Many good characters have a bad double...is this split a healthyYes, probably. But isn't this split also what is termed black and white
> psychological construct for a young child? Bad batman acts,good batman fixes
> it...-=-
>
> Don't think so much. Seriously. You've spun three-year-old learning into a
> bunch of big words and fears and negativity.
>
thinking by mental health professionals--people are all good or all bad?
This is a concern for me because of my own troubles with this kind of
thinking. I want my son to be a fully integrated person, and by this I mean
I want him to embrace all of his actions and qualities in a whole person,
and not have a dark side he splits off and doesn't acknowledge or projects
onto other people. Isn't this healthier?
> Please, when you're writing for this list, try to use your own words andThese are my own thoughts and words, as much as words and thoughts can
> your own thoughts.
>
belong to anyone. Language is collaborative, we all share thoughts and
ideas. I did give an example with the water table of my concern of
narrative getting between my son and his experiences. He's focused on a
story or a role and not experiencing sensations, not experiencing the world
in all its astounding sublimity.
My worry is this: stories can be useful shortcuts to understanding, but they
simplify things and sometimes oversimplify them. I'm afraid this might lead
him to a less nuanced understanding of the world, which is a problem I see
in people thinking all around me. If my son is seeing the same simple story
over and over he's being directed to pick up on certain motifs and themes,
and I worry about this. Not because any so-called child expert has alerted
me to the dangers of narrative, but because of my own understanding of
stories, which I do have a passion for; I write fiction. I'm concerned
because I do believe in the power of a story and I'm worried that
foundational narratives (my words!) are being laid in his young brain. I'm
not able to explain myself entirely to my satisfaction due to time
constraints, but perhaps I'll take a hack at it later. I do want to rewrite
the section you asked me to rephrase as it is the heart of my concerns and I
want to express myself clearly on that point.
And yes, i do know that netflixs adds new watch instantly, sick of was a
strong word, tired of would be better. Every six months or so we drop
netflix for a month or two so we can explore new resources, save a little
money, and then we're always happy when we get it back. I didn't mean to
imply we were finished with netflix, just taking a break. With our budget,
even the small fee we pay them can be used for something else like swimming
pool fees. :)
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> http://sandradodd.com/being
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
plaidpanties666
"sashaviasasha" <sashaviasasha@...> wrote:
The trouble is, you're assuming that without this thing - tv, movies, narrative, whatever, there's be some kind of special freedom to choose and as a result he'd choose something you'd find more comfortable. In reality, though, he's drawn to some aspect of that narrative. Without batman, he'd find something else and it might be something you weren't thrilled with. Ray had a fascination with poo for a time. I'd have preferred batman ;)
Imitation is an important aspect of learning. To tell a good story, you have to know the parts of a story and how they hang together, so you study stories. You read them or listen to them or watch them as shows or plays and then repeat them as exactly as you can to be sure you have the parts right. There are writing classes that give people modles to study. There are painting schools that start students by copying the work of "great masters". How do people learn ballet? Lots and lots of repetition of other people's work.
Kids know all that, already, so they find things that intrigue them and repeat them over and over, to get a sense of how they go together. Not all kids all the time, but its a big, big part of learning for many people. Parents and teachers find that upsetting because the child has chosen what to imitate - but batman isn't inherently worse than the Brothers Grimm or folk tales or religious stories. The themes aren't worse, that's for sure.
You don't think playing a role could be a natural part of his process? It is for many people. It's one of the quirks of our human nature, that we can imagine ourselves as someone or something else - and for some people that's part of how we learn and grow. Don't impose how you imagine he should be learning on how he really learns.
---Meredith
>> In the thread about turning off the television someone cited the Waldorf teachers concern about a camera lens coming between a child and the world too soon. I am not so concerned about this, but I worry in exactly the same way about narrative. Is narrative obscuring the world for my son, what attitudes is this narrative tracing in his young mind, what other facets our world could it be potentially blinding him to?*******************
The trouble is, you're assuming that without this thing - tv, movies, narrative, whatever, there's be some kind of special freedom to choose and as a result he'd choose something you'd find more comfortable. In reality, though, he's drawn to some aspect of that narrative. Without batman, he'd find something else and it might be something you weren't thrilled with. Ray had a fascination with poo for a time. I'd have preferred batman ;)
>>I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows.*****************
Imitation is an important aspect of learning. To tell a good story, you have to know the parts of a story and how they hang together, so you study stories. You read them or listen to them or watch them as shows or plays and then repeat them as exactly as you can to be sure you have the parts right. There are writing classes that give people modles to study. There are painting schools that start students by copying the work of "great masters". How do people learn ballet? Lots and lots of repetition of other people's work.
Kids know all that, already, so they find things that intrigue them and repeat them over and over, to get a sense of how they go together. Not all kids all the time, but its a big, big part of learning for many people. Parents and teachers find that upsetting because the child has chosen what to imitate - but batman isn't inherently worse than the Brothers Grimm or folk tales or religious stories. The themes aren't worse, that's for sure.
>>i worry--is he experiencing the tactile expereince, feeling the textures, the sunlight on the water, etc. if he is preoccupied with playing a role? I fear something is being lost!********************
You don't think playing a role could be a natural part of his process? It is for many people. It's one of the quirks of our human nature, that we can imagine ourselves as someone or something else - and for some people that's part of how we learn and grow. Don't impose how you imagine he should be learning on how he really learns.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-but batman isn't inherently worse than the Brothers Grimm or folk tales or religious stories. The themes aren't worse, that's for sure. -=-
The themes, at the level of motif, are the same.
-=-I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows.
*****************
-=-Imitation is an important aspect of learning. -=-
I totally agree with Meredith on that. The boy is three years old. 36 months, and some, old.
This sounds like the mother justifying her angst:
-=-I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows.-=-
"JUST" reenacting the shows.
Any time "just" is used, it's good to look at why. It's often a belitting put-down, or a defense of something. He's just playing. He's just joking.
-=- Don't impose how you imagine he should be learning on how he really learns. -=-
Yes, and look more at what he IS doing than at what he isn't doing, or what you imagine perhaps he might be doing that's preventing what you believe maybe he could be doing.
TOO many words, too many thoughts, too many worries.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
The themes, at the level of motif, are the same.
-=-I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows.
*****************
-=-Imitation is an important aspect of learning. -=-
I totally agree with Meredith on that. The boy is three years old. 36 months, and some, old.
This sounds like the mother justifying her angst:
-=-I do see that my son is sometimes testing the limits of the many narratives we've seen, but more often we are just reenacting the shows.-=-
"JUST" reenacting the shows.
Any time "just" is used, it's good to look at why. It's often a belitting put-down, or a defense of something. He's just playing. He's just joking.
-=- Don't impose how you imagine he should be learning on how he really learns. -=-
Yes, and look more at what he IS doing than at what he isn't doing, or what you imagine perhaps he might be doing that's preventing what you believe maybe he could be doing.
TOO many words, too many thoughts, too many worries.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, probably. But -=-
Yeah, but...
-=-stories can be useful shortcuts to understanding, but -=-
yeah, but...
-=-I'm not able to explain myself entirely to my satisfaction due to time
constraints, but perhaps I'll take a hack at it later. I do want to rewrite
the section you asked me to rephrase as it is the heart of my concerns and I
want to express myself clearly on that point.-=-
No, don't. I just wanted you to do it for your own benefit, not for the list. It won't help the list.
To speak of "narrative" rather than directly of stories, when speaking of a three year old, is too distant, too technical. You're being up in your head, not down with your child.
This list has the mothers of MANY, many former three year old boys, and some current ones. We can help you see other angles if you can accept input and not "yeah, but" everything. We can help you see the joy and beauty and learning rather than the buts and "justs" and the fears.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yeah, but...
-=-stories can be useful shortcuts to understanding, but -=-
yeah, but...
-=-I'm not able to explain myself entirely to my satisfaction due to time
constraints, but perhaps I'll take a hack at it later. I do want to rewrite
the section you asked me to rephrase as it is the heart of my concerns and I
want to express myself clearly on that point.-=-
No, don't. I just wanted you to do it for your own benefit, not for the list. It won't help the list.
To speak of "narrative" rather than directly of stories, when speaking of a three year old, is too distant, too technical. You're being up in your head, not down with your child.
This list has the mothers of MANY, many former three year old boys, and some current ones. We can help you see other angles if you can accept input and not "yeah, but" everything. We can help you see the joy and beauty and learning rather than the buts and "justs" and the fears.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***is he experiencing the tactile expereince, feeling the textures, the sunlight
on the water, etc. if he is preoccupied with playing a role? I fear something is
being lost!***
Role playing is what kids DO! Would it make you feel better if you were living
in a hunter/gatherer culture and he was role playing hunting with sticks or role
playing building fires? What would be lost if he stopped watching
Backyardigans? Maybe he wouldn't be inspired to make stories around mudpies?
My oldest was little when Pokemon came out. Many parents created hysteria
around it, schools banned it. We knew kids whose parents banned it or barely
tolerated it as a soon to be passing fad. We embraced it. Our daughter loved
it, never wanted to miss a show. We bought our first gameboy color with a
Pokemon game when she was 4. She took that everywhere with her. She just
turned 17 and STILL loves Pokemon. She got a new game for her birthday.
Everything she is today can be traced back to her love of Pokemon.
What kind of person would she be if she never loved Pokemon? Does it matter?
What if she had fallen in love with American Girl dolls or horses? Would that
be better? What if she had become a fan of Barbie dolls? What if she delved
into baseball and her life had become centered around that? Maybe she would
have become fascinated by Nancy Drew, like I did as a kid, and played detective.
Would that be better?
***The other day he asked me after his nap (did he have a dream I wonder?) if
there are bad things in the world. When I admitted, mildly, that there were, he
said, in a voice with trembling with emotion, that he would fight those things.
I don't know what to think of this. When he's frightened by something he slips
on his batman gloves and is brave. Sometimes he is very timid and whispers...is
this the real child beneath all the barman bravado? Is all of this playacting,
with dh and I following his cues, healthy? Please help!***
The ways that kids play are how they can incorporate big ideas. It IS what kids
do. It's normal to process the world through play, especially role playing.
Would it be better if he incorporated fairies like Waldorf? How is that any
different?
These are little things. Focus on peace and happiness. If what you do is
helping his life be peaceful and happy, then keep doing it. If it isn't causing
peace and happiness, then stop doing it. Would taking away Batman be peaceful
and happy? Would finding harshness in Batman create peace and happiness? Would
it stop your child from waking up from a bad dream and realizing the world is
bigger than him and potentially scary? One day he'll be bigger and more aware
of the world. Will his lens be one of happiness and peace or will it be one of
worry and fear?
What you do can create a divide if you let it. You could alienate your son by
diminishing his joy of the things he loves by fearing and worrying, or you could
do what you know works already, love and enjoy and embrace it in his play and
stop worrying. If you make too big a deal of little things he'll grow to
believe that you are full of crap and stop listening to you. Parents can do so
much to damage their relationship with their kids and it starts with the little
things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on the water, etc. if he is preoccupied with playing a role? I fear something is
being lost!***
Role playing is what kids DO! Would it make you feel better if you were living
in a hunter/gatherer culture and he was role playing hunting with sticks or role
playing building fires? What would be lost if he stopped watching
Backyardigans? Maybe he wouldn't be inspired to make stories around mudpies?
My oldest was little when Pokemon came out. Many parents created hysteria
around it, schools banned it. We knew kids whose parents banned it or barely
tolerated it as a soon to be passing fad. We embraced it. Our daughter loved
it, never wanted to miss a show. We bought our first gameboy color with a
Pokemon game when she was 4. She took that everywhere with her. She just
turned 17 and STILL loves Pokemon. She got a new game for her birthday.
Everything she is today can be traced back to her love of Pokemon.
What kind of person would she be if she never loved Pokemon? Does it matter?
What if she had fallen in love with American Girl dolls or horses? Would that
be better? What if she had become a fan of Barbie dolls? What if she delved
into baseball and her life had become centered around that? Maybe she would
have become fascinated by Nancy Drew, like I did as a kid, and played detective.
Would that be better?
***The other day he asked me after his nap (did he have a dream I wonder?) if
there are bad things in the world. When I admitted, mildly, that there were, he
said, in a voice with trembling with emotion, that he would fight those things.
I don't know what to think of this. When he's frightened by something he slips
on his batman gloves and is brave. Sometimes he is very timid and whispers...is
this the real child beneath all the barman bravado? Is all of this playacting,
with dh and I following his cues, healthy? Please help!***
The ways that kids play are how they can incorporate big ideas. It IS what kids
do. It's normal to process the world through play, especially role playing.
Would it be better if he incorporated fairies like Waldorf? How is that any
different?
These are little things. Focus on peace and happiness. If what you do is
helping his life be peaceful and happy, then keep doing it. If it isn't causing
peace and happiness, then stop doing it. Would taking away Batman be peaceful
and happy? Would finding harshness in Batman create peace and happiness? Would
it stop your child from waking up from a bad dream and realizing the world is
bigger than him and potentially scary? One day he'll be bigger and more aware
of the world. Will his lens be one of happiness and peace or will it be one of
worry and fear?
What you do can create a divide if you let it. You could alienate your son by
diminishing his joy of the things he loves by fearing and worrying, or you could
do what you know works already, love and enjoy and embrace it in his play and
stop worrying. If you make too big a deal of little things he'll grow to
believe that you are full of crap and stop listening to you. Parents can do so
much to damage their relationship with their kids and it starts with the little
things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The ways that kids play are how they can incorporate big ideas. It IS what kids
do. It's normal to process the world through play, especially role playing.
Would it be better if he incorporated fairies like Waldorf? How is that any
different?-=-
Oh, I know, I know!
At Waldorf, he wouldn't be discovering fairies and puzzling that out on his own. Adults who do NOT believe in fairies would be lying to him.
-=- If what you do is
helping his life be peaceful and happy, then keep doing it. If it isn't causing
peace and happiness, then stop doing it. Would taking away Batman be peaceful
and happy?-=-
Beautiful, beautiful, Jenny.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do. It's normal to process the world through play, especially role playing.
Would it be better if he incorporated fairies like Waldorf? How is that any
different?-=-
Oh, I know, I know!
At Waldorf, he wouldn't be discovering fairies and puzzling that out on his own. Adults who do NOT believe in fairies would be lying to him.
-=- If what you do is
helping his life be peaceful and happy, then keep doing it. If it isn't causing
peace and happiness, then stop doing it. Would taking away Batman be peaceful
and happy?-=-
Beautiful, beautiful, Jenny.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If my son is seeing the same simple story
over and over he's being directed to pick up on certain motifs and themes,
and I worry about this. Not because any so-called child expert has alerted
me to the dangers of narrative, but because of my own understanding of
stories, which I do have a passion for; I write fiction. I'm concerned
because I do believe in the power of a story and I'm worried that
foundational narratives (my words!) are being laid in his young brain.***
Good vs. Bad is the most classic and simplistic narrative in existence! Yet, it
is also the most complex! Which is why it gets played over and over and over in
so many different contexts. If you are interested in exploring more complex
narratives on good vs. bad, try some Hayao Miyazaki movies. His approach seems
to be that there is good and bad in everyone and it's not so dualistic and
simplistic. Actually a lot of anime comes from that approach. Even Batman is a
bit like that, the "bad" guys have reasons for being that way.
My oldest daughter has spent her life in narrative. She loves stories, she's
watched a lot of movies and read a lot of books and it's fueled her imaginative
play. It is so much a part of who she is that I don't think I could have kept
that from her, even if we'd decided that all media was banned. She would have
been the kid secretly reading with a flashlight at night to get stories, or
going to sleepovers just to watch movies.
If you are a fiction writer, it's likely your own childhood was imbued with
stories. It could be genetic. It could be how your child processes the world!
When my oldest gets in a funk, the best thing I can do for her is to invite her
to watch a movie or TV series for hours. It is a huge part of how she processes
her world. She feeds her mind with stories and ideas, it inspires wonderful
crafts and conversations!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
over and over he's being directed to pick up on certain motifs and themes,
and I worry about this. Not because any so-called child expert has alerted
me to the dangers of narrative, but because of my own understanding of
stories, which I do have a passion for; I write fiction. I'm concerned
because I do believe in the power of a story and I'm worried that
foundational narratives (my words!) are being laid in his young brain.***
Good vs. Bad is the most classic and simplistic narrative in existence! Yet, it
is also the most complex! Which is why it gets played over and over and over in
so many different contexts. If you are interested in exploring more complex
narratives on good vs. bad, try some Hayao Miyazaki movies. His approach seems
to be that there is good and bad in everyone and it's not so dualistic and
simplistic. Actually a lot of anime comes from that approach. Even Batman is a
bit like that, the "bad" guys have reasons for being that way.
My oldest daughter has spent her life in narrative. She loves stories, she's
watched a lot of movies and read a lot of books and it's fueled her imaginative
play. It is so much a part of who she is that I don't think I could have kept
that from her, even if we'd decided that all media was banned. She would have
been the kid secretly reading with a flashlight at night to get stories, or
going to sleepovers just to watch movies.
If you are a fiction writer, it's likely your own childhood was imbued with
stories. It could be genetic. It could be how your child processes the world!
When my oldest gets in a funk, the best thing I can do for her is to invite her
to watch a movie or TV series for hours. It is a huge part of how she processes
her world. She feeds her mind with stories and ideas, it inspires wonderful
crafts and conversations!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Sasha ViaSasha <sashaviasasha@...> wrote:
In your life, was the Only place you saw black and white thinking on tv or in books? I bet not. Schools can be very extremist in terms of categorizing people - good girls and sluts, mama boys and jocks, popular kids and nerds. Those aren't just images in the media, those are the real dynamics people fight with in school. I was bad at sports because I was a smart girl. Five years after I graduated high school I realized I'd never been bad at sports, I had Learned to be bad at sports because that was my role in school.
Boys run into that kind of baggage too, and it can lead to other kinds of "dark sides". It can lead to stuffing down feelings until all that's safe to express is anger. But your son won't learn to stuff his feelings watching batman - he'll learn to stuff them if you say "what you love isn't important". Your words and actions are far, far more powerful than a tv show. If your son is free to exult, free to bounce up and down for joy, free to tear up and free to cuddle with his mama, then he's not going to have any Need for an alter ego. If he doesn't need to hide Who He Is from the people he loves, he won't.
You could not prevent that short of keeping all stories away from him. He's choosing what's interesting to him - that's a good thing! What other story do you think he'd pick, without Batman? Do you think it would be better?
When I was a kid, with a black and white tv, no less, we played WWII for days on end with one set of neighbors and Hells Angels for days on end with another set and my brother and I played magic castles and ghosts in the woods together. All of those had essentially the same themes - heros and villains, victims and traitors. Take some time to read a bunch of folk tales from a variety of cultures - all across the world - and see what the similarities are. See what they have in common with Batman. That might ease your fears a little.
There's a classical theme in that quote - the human struggle to meld the intellect and the physical: the gods and the demons, struggling for power over the soul. You don't get to step in and push the demons out of the way for someone else, not even your own child. That's one of the universal themes of parenthood. You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.
---Meredith
>> Yes, probably. But isn't this split also what is termed black and whiteIts also a natural thing, a natural stage of development to group things like this - good vs evil - as a way for children to begin thinking about those big, big issues. It won't help to try to shove him through a developmental stage faster.
> thinking by mental health professionals--people are all good or all bad?
> This is a concern for me because of my own troubles with this kind of
> thinking.
In your life, was the Only place you saw black and white thinking on tv or in books? I bet not. Schools can be very extremist in terms of categorizing people - good girls and sluts, mama boys and jocks, popular kids and nerds. Those aren't just images in the media, those are the real dynamics people fight with in school. I was bad at sports because I was a smart girl. Five years after I graduated high school I realized I'd never been bad at sports, I had Learned to be bad at sports because that was my role in school.
> I want him to embrace all of his actions and qualities in a whole person,Then don't sweep what he loves under the rug. Seriously. People have a "dark side" when their passions are seen as undesirable. My dark side was (brace yourself) handcrafts. Yes, smart girl me who had succeeded in being bad at sports, felt I had to hide the fact that I liked to cross stitch and knit. As dark sides go, that might not seem so bad, but its tied up in a whooooole lot of scary sexist baggage about what makes people good and strong and smart and right.
> and not have a dark side he splits off and doesn't acknowledge or projects
> onto other people.
Boys run into that kind of baggage too, and it can lead to other kinds of "dark sides". It can lead to stuffing down feelings until all that's safe to express is anger. But your son won't learn to stuff his feelings watching batman - he'll learn to stuff them if you say "what you love isn't important". Your words and actions are far, far more powerful than a tv show. If your son is free to exult, free to bounce up and down for joy, free to tear up and free to cuddle with his mama, then he's not going to have any Need for an alter ego. If he doesn't need to hide Who He Is from the people he loves, he won't.
>>I write fiction. I'm concerned*****************
> because I do believe in the power of a story and I'm worried that
> foundational narratives (my words!) are being laid in his young brain.
You could not prevent that short of keeping all stories away from him. He's choosing what's interesting to him - that's a good thing! What other story do you think he'd pick, without Batman? Do you think it would be better?
When I was a kid, with a black and white tv, no less, we played WWII for days on end with one set of neighbors and Hells Angels for days on end with another set and my brother and I played magic castles and ghosts in the woods together. All of those had essentially the same themes - heros and villains, victims and traitors. Take some time to read a bunch of folk tales from a variety of cultures - all across the world - and see what the similarities are. See what they have in common with Batman. That might ease your fears a little.
>He's focused on aYou're imposing what you think he should be doing and learning and being over who he is and what he enjoys - and so you're seeing an imagination of him, rather than him. Sandra's right, you're overthinking. But I'm going to go there with you for a moment in case it helps.
> story or a role and not experiencing sensations, not experiencing the world
> in all its astounding sublimity.
There's a classical theme in that quote - the human struggle to meld the intellect and the physical: the gods and the demons, struggling for power over the soul. You don't get to step in and push the demons out of the way for someone else, not even your own child. That's one of the universal themes of parenthood. You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
>> Role playing is what kids DO! Would it make you feel better if you were living***************
> in a hunter/gatherer culture and he was role playing hunting with sticks
Some chimpanzees do this - carry around sticks and pretend they're babies. Its *that* primitive a drive.
>When he's frightened by something he slips****************
> on his batman gloves and is brave. Sometimes he is very timid and whispers...is this the real child beneath all the barman bravado?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. What's the difference in being brave and pretending to be? I have a lot of fears and I couldn't tell you the difference. When I was building my house (myself, alone, with a fear of heights and power tools) I would play dress up. I had my "power femme climbs ladders" outfit with red white and blue striped leotards and a spangly top and I'd shimmy up the ladder with my nail-gun and pretend I was brave. I had others, too, but that was the most memorable. Actors have hoards of superstitions to help them get by. Sports professionals have rituals before big games. How many brides won't let the groom see them in the dress? Those are alllll tricks for getting over a case of nerves. Congratulations! Your 3yo has figured that trick out already! He's ready for his first job interview ;)
---Meredith
Sasha ViaSasha
If you are a fiction writer, it's likely your own childhood was imbued with
stories. It could be genetic.
Yes, I am very susceptible to narrative, I give myself over to it very
easily and now protect myself from it and feel that I need to protect my son
as well. My experience with stories has been both wonderful and terrible.
Some narratives that I internalized were very destructive and I want to
protect my son. cant explain it other then to say that some narratives and
metaphors have held me captive, forcing me to reenact them over and over. Of
course there is much in my history that is not my sons. My husband has a
very different experience with film then I do, he picks out visual or
auditory elements and ignores the story it doesn't bother him but some
stories irritate or upset me to the point I leave because I just am unable
to achieve the same distance. I get sucked into it. And I wish that I'd had
access to different stories as a child, rather then the stories that were
forced unto me and made me feel so imprisoned, many of them religious. So, I
don't want to trap my son in my fears. I let him choose. I support his
choices even when I can't understand them.
Meredith comments about WWII reassured me somewhat, because it is the overly
simplistic theme of Batman that worries me. But at three-years old is it a
good idea to see and enact such a repetitive good/evil theme over and over
and over? I wasn't belittling my son when I said he just reenacts the same
thing, but it does worry me. It doesn't seem like its enriching his
imagination, but stifling it.
I love folktales, and even love Brothers Grimm which many people think is
terrible for children. I don't read those stories to my son because he
isn't interested. I love Hans Christian Anderson. i wish I'd had him as a
child. I don't know if my son will like him, I somehow doubt it. I know hes
different from me. But these tales offer a level of complexity and richness
that Batman doesn't, though I do realize that such complexity is cognitively
beyond him right now. But perhaps the Batman does offer that complexity,
though not in its story. Visually or in some other way perhaps.
My son gets so into batman that his whole body tenses up and I can see that
emotions are overwhelming him. He seems to enjoy this. I just fear that such
intense experiences centered around a single simple idea have to be creating
some kind of chemical tendency...I'm just worried that I'm making a horrible
mistake. And I'm feeling more worried then ever, rather then reassured as
I'd hoped to feel after posting. But I'll give it a rest for now while still
welcoming any other thoughts, Thanks again to all.
'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stories. It could be genetic.
Yes, I am very susceptible to narrative, I give myself over to it very
easily and now protect myself from it and feel that I need to protect my son
as well. My experience with stories has been both wonderful and terrible.
Some narratives that I internalized were very destructive and I want to
protect my son. cant explain it other then to say that some narratives and
metaphors have held me captive, forcing me to reenact them over and over. Of
course there is much in my history that is not my sons. My husband has a
very different experience with film then I do, he picks out visual or
auditory elements and ignores the story it doesn't bother him but some
stories irritate or upset me to the point I leave because I just am unable
to achieve the same distance. I get sucked into it. And I wish that I'd had
access to different stories as a child, rather then the stories that were
forced unto me and made me feel so imprisoned, many of them religious. So, I
don't want to trap my son in my fears. I let him choose. I support his
choices even when I can't understand them.
Meredith comments about WWII reassured me somewhat, because it is the overly
simplistic theme of Batman that worries me. But at three-years old is it a
good idea to see and enact such a repetitive good/evil theme over and over
and over? I wasn't belittling my son when I said he just reenacts the same
thing, but it does worry me. It doesn't seem like its enriching his
imagination, but stifling it.
I love folktales, and even love Brothers Grimm which many people think is
terrible for children. I don't read those stories to my son because he
isn't interested. I love Hans Christian Anderson. i wish I'd had him as a
child. I don't know if my son will like him, I somehow doubt it. I know hes
different from me. But these tales offer a level of complexity and richness
that Batman doesn't, though I do realize that such complexity is cognitively
beyond him right now. But perhaps the Batman does offer that complexity,
though not in its story. Visually or in some other way perhaps.
My son gets so into batman that his whole body tenses up and I can see that
emotions are overwhelming him. He seems to enjoy this. I just fear that such
intense experiences centered around a single simple idea have to be creating
some kind of chemical tendency...I'm just worried that I'm making a horrible
mistake. And I'm feeling more worried then ever, rather then reassured as
I'd hoped to feel after posting. But I'll give it a rest for now while still
welcoming any other thoughts, Thanks again to all.
'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=->He's focused on a
-=-There's a classical theme in that quote - the human struggle to meld the intellect and the physical: the gods and the demons, struggling for power over the soul. You don't get to step in and push the demons out of the way for someone else, not even your own child. That's one of the universal themes of parenthood. You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.-=-
A mother who sees an image of her ideal child rather than seeing her own child is not experiencing her child in all his astounding sublimity. She is focussed on a story, or a role and not being directly with her real child, in that moment.
http://sandradodd.com/being
(again; still)
-=-You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.-=-
It's important to make sure not to become his demon. An antagonistic relationship between a parent and child cannot lead to joy or safety or goodness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> story or a role and not experiencing sensations, not experiencing the world-=-You're imposing what you think he should be doing and learning and being over who he is and what he enjoys - and so you're seeing an imagination of him, rather than him. Sandra's right, you're overthinking. But I'm going to go there with you for a moment in case it helps.
> in all its astounding sublimity.
-=-There's a classical theme in that quote - the human struggle to meld the intellect and the physical: the gods and the demons, struggling for power over the soul. You don't get to step in and push the demons out of the way for someone else, not even your own child. That's one of the universal themes of parenthood. You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.-=-
A mother who sees an image of her ideal child rather than seeing her own child is not experiencing her child in all his astounding sublimity. She is focussed on a story, or a role and not being directly with her real child, in that moment.
http://sandradodd.com/being
(again; still)
-=-You can't even know what his gods are demons are or will be, because he's not you.-=-
It's important to make sure not to become his demon. An antagonistic relationship between a parent and child cannot lead to joy or safety or goodness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Please mark your quotes on the list with something physical, so it will go through yahoogroups and through everyone's varied e-mail servers.
If you are a fiction writer, it's likely your own childhood was imbued with
stories. It could be genetic.
Yes, I am very susceptible to narrative,
Those weren't written by the same person, so the quote should have been marked with *something* like +++this+++ (I use -=-that trill-=-).
-=Some narratives that I internalized were very destructive and I want to
protect my son. cant explain it other then to say that some narratives and
metaphors have held me captive, forcing me to reenact them over and over.-=-
They didn't force you do do that. You could choose not to, and if you can't maybe you could find a cognitive therapist to help you out.
-=-Of course there is much in my history that is not my sons. -=-
Yes. Unless you were unschooled, what your history was shouldn't apply to your son.
-=-I get sucked into it. And I wish that I'd had
access to different stories as a child, rather then the stories that were
forced unto me and made me feel so imprisoned, many of them religious. So, I
don't want to trap my son in my fears. I let him choose. I support his
choices even when I can't understand them.-=-
You keep telling us you support him, and then you tell us you're concerned, you're afraid. He will know that. You're spinning and spinning in thoughts and words. Learning to be still and quiet and to stop thinking and whirling words would help you and your son immensely and immediately.
-=-I love folktales, and even love Brothers Grimm which many people think is
terrible for children. I don't read those stories to my son because he
isn't interested. I love Hans Christian Anderson. i wish I'd had him as a
child. I don't know if my son will like him, I somehow doubt it.-=-
You read those stories. Read them with your own psyche in mind. Which characters will you be more like? What are the flaws and failings of characters that you can avoid in your own life? How vulnerable to parental coldness is your son? Don't be one of those cold, judgmental parents from the fairy tales. Be one of the warm, self-sacrificing parents. Be one of the sweet, patient characters.
-=- it is the overly simplistic theme of Batman that worries me-=-
Batman is not as simplistic as you're trying to tell us it is. Just let it go. You don't need to understand it at the level he does.
-=- But at three-years old is it a
good idea to see and enact such a repetitive good/evil theme over and over
and over? I wasn't belittling my son when I said he just reenacts the same
thing, but it does worry me. It doesn't seem like its enriching his
imagination, but stifling it.-=-
You see him as less than. Less imaginative. Less creative.
Until you look at what he IS rather than all the thousands of millions of things you're sure he isn't and can't be, you will be wasting time, energy, and opportunity.
Every day he is older.
Be with him, where he is, quietly, lovingly, now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you are a fiction writer, it's likely your own childhood was imbued with
stories. It could be genetic.
Yes, I am very susceptible to narrative,
Those weren't written by the same person, so the quote should have been marked with *something* like +++this+++ (I use -=-that trill-=-).
-=Some narratives that I internalized were very destructive and I want to
protect my son. cant explain it other then to say that some narratives and
metaphors have held me captive, forcing me to reenact them over and over.-=-
They didn't force you do do that. You could choose not to, and if you can't maybe you could find a cognitive therapist to help you out.
-=-Of course there is much in my history that is not my sons. -=-
Yes. Unless you were unschooled, what your history was shouldn't apply to your son.
-=-I get sucked into it. And I wish that I'd had
access to different stories as a child, rather then the stories that were
forced unto me and made me feel so imprisoned, many of them religious. So, I
don't want to trap my son in my fears. I let him choose. I support his
choices even when I can't understand them.-=-
You keep telling us you support him, and then you tell us you're concerned, you're afraid. He will know that. You're spinning and spinning in thoughts and words. Learning to be still and quiet and to stop thinking and whirling words would help you and your son immensely and immediately.
-=-I love folktales, and even love Brothers Grimm which many people think is
terrible for children. I don't read those stories to my son because he
isn't interested. I love Hans Christian Anderson. i wish I'd had him as a
child. I don't know if my son will like him, I somehow doubt it.-=-
You read those stories. Read them with your own psyche in mind. Which characters will you be more like? What are the flaws and failings of characters that you can avoid in your own life? How vulnerable to parental coldness is your son? Don't be one of those cold, judgmental parents from the fairy tales. Be one of the warm, self-sacrificing parents. Be one of the sweet, patient characters.
-=- it is the overly simplistic theme of Batman that worries me-=-
Batman is not as simplistic as you're trying to tell us it is. Just let it go. You don't need to understand it at the level he does.
-=- But at three-years old is it a
good idea to see and enact such a repetitive good/evil theme over and over
and over? I wasn't belittling my son when I said he just reenacts the same
thing, but it does worry me. It doesn't seem like its enriching his
imagination, but stifling it.-=-
You see him as less than. Less imaginative. Less creative.
Until you look at what he IS rather than all the thousands of millions of things you're sure he isn't and can't be, you will be wasting time, energy, and opportunity.
Every day he is older.
Be with him, where he is, quietly, lovingly, now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 17, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Sasha ViaSasha wrote:
time in their own way.
How can he be a whole person if you take away what he's freely
choosing from the world of choice you're offering?
I think you're attributing your own troubles to the stories that were
forced on you and not on the force!
I was going to say you could force Winnie-the-Pooh on a child and have
the same negative effect and it reminded me that both AA Milne and his
son Christopher ended up resenting the Pooh books because for the rest
of their lives the couldn't escape from them.
Provide a variety that you believe appeals to or might appeal to your
son to choose from. Then allow your son the freedom to choose stories
that have meaning to him but make you uncomfortable.
People *think* that's common in real life, but it's common in stories.
It's what we interpret has happened in real life when we can only see
the surface of a person's life.
Stories give us a warped view of why people make choices. Even further
I think there may be some primal need to seek out demons to blame our
weaknesses on. It's more satisfying for people to believe the devil
(or TV or corporations, drugs, sex in our culture, rock music) made
them do something. It's more satisfying in a story to have a bad thing
to focus on as the cause than to delve into all the damage from
parenting and school that
How is your desire to take away something he enjoys any different than
a Christian's desire for a whole spirit for their child that they want
to achieve by limiting access to the secular world?
He can't be a whole person until you see the whole person he is. Stop
looking outward and see him. Is he happy?
What's unhealthy is looking at a happy person and seeing sickness
because outside sources are saying you can't trust what you observe.
Get the theories out from between you and your son and look right at
him and see him as a whole being right now. You're doing what you fear
he's doing. You're seeing and believing this fantasy that you're
creating instead of who he is. Adults do that way more I think than
kids do!
limited choice. People who have grown up limited to the ideas their
parents think are best for them. Some people fight against the control
-- and fight against their parents. Some people internalize the
limitations and for the rest of their lives struggle to recognize that
they have choices in life and aren't limited to a narrow range.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This is a concern for me because of my own troubles with this kind ofWhat's healthy is processing what makes sense to someone in their own
> thinking. I want my son to be a fully integrated person
time in their own way.
How can he be a whole person if you take away what he's freely
choosing from the world of choice you're offering?
I think you're attributing your own troubles to the stories that were
forced on you and not on the force!
I was going to say you could force Winnie-the-Pooh on a child and have
the same negative effect and it reminded me that both AA Milne and his
son Christopher ended up resenting the Pooh books because for the rest
of their lives the couldn't escape from them.
Provide a variety that you believe appeals to or might appeal to your
son to choose from. Then allow your son the freedom to choose stories
that have meaning to him but make you uncomfortable.
> I want him to embrace all of his actions and qualities in a wholeWhy do you think a healthy person would choose an unhealthy reaction?
> person,
> and not have a dark side he splits off and doesn't acknowledge or
> projects
> onto other people. Isn't this healthier?
People *think* that's common in real life, but it's common in stories.
It's what we interpret has happened in real life when we can only see
the surface of a person's life.
Stories give us a warped view of why people make choices. Even further
I think there may be some primal need to seek out demons to blame our
weaknesses on. It's more satisfying for people to believe the devil
(or TV or corporations, drugs, sex in our culture, rock music) made
them do something. It's more satisfying in a story to have a bad thing
to focus on as the cause than to delve into all the damage from
parenting and school that
How is your desire to take away something he enjoys any different than
a Christian's desire for a whole spirit for their child that they want
to achieve by limiting access to the secular world?
He can't be a whole person until you see the whole person he is. Stop
looking outward and see him. Is he happy?
What's unhealthy is looking at a happy person and seeing sickness
because outside sources are saying you can't trust what you observe.
Get the theories out from between you and your son and look right at
him and see him as a whole being right now. You're doing what you fear
he's doing. You're seeing and believing this fantasy that you're
creating instead of who he is. Adults do that way more I think than
kids do!
> I'm afraid this might leadWhat you see around you is a world of people who have grown up with
> him to a less nuanced understanding of the world, which is a problem
> I see
> in people thinking all around me.
limited choice. People who have grown up limited to the ideas their
parents think are best for them. Some people fight against the control
-- and fight against their parents. Some people internalize the
limitations and for the rest of their lives struggle to recognize that
they have choices in life and aren't limited to a narrow range.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
When Simon was little I was afraid of the television. It sounds ludicrous now,
but when he was little I remembered my own passive seeming relationship with the
television and predicted that it was what his life would be like if I let him
watch television. I wanted to protect Simon from my own experience and when
other folks would tell me about how they don't let their children watch
television I would think with some kind of envy that they must be better parents
them me. The problem was that Simon enjoyed television. He liked Tellytubbies
and Bear in the Big Blue House and Blues Clues and Barney. He liked to sit in my
lap and have me enjoy the shows with him. He liked to talk about the things he's
seen, he liked to dance to the music, he liked to dance with me to the music.
And when I watched him watching the shows and when I engaged with him watching
the shows, I didn't see a passive seeming relationship, I saw an engaged and
happy little boy hanging out with his happy and engaged mum.
When I was watching television as a child and as a teenager and as a young adult
I was often using it to relax, to zone, to obscure other aspects of my life. It
wasn't an addiction, it was a kind of self-medication, without really any
negative side effects. But people talked about me being helpless in front of the
television, and I believed them. I believed that it was an evil thing that
overpowered me, I accepted that narrative. You mention liking Hans Christian
Andersen. I reread the Snow Queen recently and thought a lot about how Kai's
changed perspective is about an evil entering him, an evil that is separate from
who he is, and how wonderfully passive that is. I don't buy into that narrative.
I don't believe that a happy little boy, living a good life in a garret with his
best friend across the balcony would be struck down by a piece of glass from an
evil mirror. But you seem to. Maybe back up and look at your happy boy enjoying
Batman (which is a really cool story) and let go of the notion that he is going
to be destroyed by a piece of glass that enters his heart and his eye.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
but when he was little I remembered my own passive seeming relationship with the
television and predicted that it was what his life would be like if I let him
watch television. I wanted to protect Simon from my own experience and when
other folks would tell me about how they don't let their children watch
television I would think with some kind of envy that they must be better parents
them me. The problem was that Simon enjoyed television. He liked Tellytubbies
and Bear in the Big Blue House and Blues Clues and Barney. He liked to sit in my
lap and have me enjoy the shows with him. He liked to talk about the things he's
seen, he liked to dance to the music, he liked to dance with me to the music.
And when I watched him watching the shows and when I engaged with him watching
the shows, I didn't see a passive seeming relationship, I saw an engaged and
happy little boy hanging out with his happy and engaged mum.
When I was watching television as a child and as a teenager and as a young adult
I was often using it to relax, to zone, to obscure other aspects of my life. It
wasn't an addiction, it was a kind of self-medication, without really any
negative side effects. But people talked about me being helpless in front of the
television, and I believed them. I believed that it was an evil thing that
overpowered me, I accepted that narrative. You mention liking Hans Christian
Andersen. I reread the Snow Queen recently and thought a lot about how Kai's
changed perspective is about an evil entering him, an evil that is separate from
who he is, and how wonderfully passive that is. I don't buy into that narrative.
I don't believe that a happy little boy, living a good life in a garret with his
best friend across the balcony would be struck down by a piece of glass from an
evil mirror. But you seem to. Maybe back up and look at your happy boy enjoying
Batman (which is a really cool story) and let go of the notion that he is going
to be destroyed by a piece of glass that enters his heart and his eye.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shirarocklin
There is so much here, and I couldn't read all of the other's responses. But I had a few very clear thoughts as I read and felt prompted to contribute.
From what I understand of the world and history, narrative has been a piece of human culture since... well since the birth of culture. People tell stories, always have. Its just the medium that has changed over time. Narrative is used to explore uncomfortable, scary, bad, lovely, great, beautiful, wondrous ideas. Various mythologies, Shakespeare's plays, biblical stories, modern literature - they are all exploring what it means to be human through narrative. I even dream in a sort of narrative. If TV and books weren't around (since you don't seem to be afraid of the medium, but more the idea of narrative), your son might be play-acting the stories you passed down orally, or that he saw in theatre, or from other children's play. This is one way to work through ideas that scare or delight us.
Repetitiveness is also very common in young children. My kids love to watch the same episodes of shows again and again, or read the same books over again, or sew the same embroidery, cook the same recipe, etc. (They also delight in new things to do). My daughter goes through the same play-acting with me day in and out, with occasional changes. Right now we are Alicia and Dora nearly every day all the time (and little brother is Baby Jaguar). As it goes on for weeks at a time, it gets slightly more sophisticated... although I have to be paying attention to notice.
I posit that this is the mental equivalent to what kids do on the jungle-gym, mental gymnastics, building/flexing their minds. Following his cues is allowing him to build/flex his mind-muscle so much more than if you weren't following his cues. Instead of shutting down that play, you are participating in its growth. And I'm fairly sure this is somewhat true, because my own mental flexibility has grown as I've re-learned how to really play with my kids.
Shira Rocklin
From what I understand of the world and history, narrative has been a piece of human culture since... well since the birth of culture. People tell stories, always have. Its just the medium that has changed over time. Narrative is used to explore uncomfortable, scary, bad, lovely, great, beautiful, wondrous ideas. Various mythologies, Shakespeare's plays, biblical stories, modern literature - they are all exploring what it means to be human through narrative. I even dream in a sort of narrative. If TV and books weren't around (since you don't seem to be afraid of the medium, but more the idea of narrative), your son might be play-acting the stories you passed down orally, or that he saw in theatre, or from other children's play. This is one way to work through ideas that scare or delight us.
Repetitiveness is also very common in young children. My kids love to watch the same episodes of shows again and again, or read the same books over again, or sew the same embroidery, cook the same recipe, etc. (They also delight in new things to do). My daughter goes through the same play-acting with me day in and out, with occasional changes. Right now we are Alicia and Dora nearly every day all the time (and little brother is Baby Jaguar). As it goes on for weeks at a time, it gets slightly more sophisticated... although I have to be paying attention to notice.
I posit that this is the mental equivalent to what kids do on the jungle-gym, mental gymnastics, building/flexing their minds. Following his cues is allowing him to build/flex his mind-muscle so much more than if you weren't following his cues. Instead of shutting down that play, you are participating in its growth. And I'm fairly sure this is somewhat true, because my own mental flexibility has grown as I've re-learned how to really play with my kids.
Shira Rocklin
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's more satisfying for people to believe the devil
(or TV or corporations, drugs, sex in our culture, rock music) made
them do something. It's more satisfying in a story to have a bad thing
to focus on as the cause than to delve into all the damage from
parenting and school that-=-
A period instead of a "that," Joyce? Or was there more?
People blame devil, tv, corporations, drugs, sex, music, games, facebook, sugar, carbohydrates, meat, global warming, overcrowding, isolation and the evil eye.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(or TV or corporations, drugs, sex in our culture, rock music) made
them do something. It's more satisfying in a story to have a bad thing
to focus on as the cause than to delve into all the damage from
parenting and school that-=-
A period instead of a "that," Joyce? Or was there more?
People blame devil, tv, corporations, drugs, sex, music, games, facebook, sugar, carbohydrates, meat, global warming, overcrowding, isolation and the evil eye.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- You mention liking Hans Christian
Andersen. I reread the Snow Queen recently...-=-
I wanted to say something about Hans Christian Andersen and Grimm's Fairy Tales. The Grimms' tales were collected from various places, and the stories were old and traditional. Hans Christian Andersen was writing new stories in a kind-of-fairy-tale format. His were little sculptures by one person, unlike the smoothed-by-generations stories in the Grimm collection and in the basic tales Charles Perrault was dealing with in France over a century before that.
Oh hey. Just found a site with sound files. Nice.
http://storynory.com/archives/fairy-tales/
"Fairy tale" is the problem. One general term for those sorts of stories puts Andersen in a category he probably shouldn't be in, as his weren't traditional. That term doesn't exist in other languages, I don't think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andersen. I reread the Snow Queen recently...-=-
I wanted to say something about Hans Christian Andersen and Grimm's Fairy Tales. The Grimms' tales were collected from various places, and the stories were old and traditional. Hans Christian Andersen was writing new stories in a kind-of-fairy-tale format. His were little sculptures by one person, unlike the smoothed-by-generations stories in the Grimm collection and in the basic tales Charles Perrault was dealing with in France over a century before that.
Oh hey. Just found a site with sound files. Nice.
http://storynory.com/archives/fairy-tales/
"Fairy tale" is the problem. One general term for those sorts of stories puts Andersen in a category he probably shouldn't be in, as his weren't traditional. That term doesn't exist in other languages, I don't think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Shira wrote, among other really good things: -=-. Instead of shutting down that play, you are participating in its growth. And I'm fairly sure this is somewhat true, because my own mental flexibility has grown as I've re-learned how to really play with my kids. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/playing
And in French. :-)
(translated by Sylvie Martin Rodriguez)
http://www.louves-online.com/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=41
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/playing
And in French. :-)
(translated by Sylvie Martin Rodriguez)
http://www.louves-online.com/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=41
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
semajrak
>You see him as less than. Less imaginative. Less creative.I had similar fears as the original poster creep into my day today. I was sitting beside my son exploring some games on the laptop. I checked my email, and found a message title "Turn off your tv week." Almost instantly, I started thinking that how we were spending our time was a list of less thans.
>Until you look at what he IS rather than all the thousands of millions of things
>you're sure he isn't and can't be, you will be wasting time, energy, and
>opportunity.
I came to post a request for suggestions to get my thoughts back on track. My eyes read over the above quote, and that did it! Now I'm ready to explore the galaxy with my son again! (We're playing Spore) Thanks!
Karen.
jamesfamilyedutrip.blogspot.com
Sasha ViaSasha
My son and I played Batman and Robin all afternoon with full abandon. I
noticed quite a few things that I hadn't before. One thing I noticed for
sure: My son does not take batman as seriously as I do. I'm definitely going
to check out a comic book store, that's a great oh duh suggestion that I'm
embarrassed not to have thought of.
My fears have subsided somewhat and although I can't say they are resolved,
its almost as though my son responded to my fears through some aspect of our
play today. It really amazed me. Once when he fell down he looked up at me
and made a funny wah wah wah sound while smiling gently at me, almost to
say, see, mom, it's ok. And he's only three. I could give you more
examples, such an amazing afternoon, but hes taking a rare nap and I'm off
to do dishes.
I've read through everything and am going to let it all saturate. Thanks
again for all of your thoughtful responses.
Best,
Sasha
Recent Activity:
noticed quite a few things that I hadn't before. One thing I noticed for
sure: My son does not take batman as seriously as I do. I'm definitely going
to check out a comic book store, that's a great oh duh suggestion that I'm
embarrassed not to have thought of.
My fears have subsided somewhat and although I can't say they are resolved,
its almost as though my son responded to my fears through some aspect of our
play today. It really amazed me. Once when he fell down he looked up at me
and made a funny wah wah wah sound while smiling gently at me, almost to
say, see, mom, it's ok. And he's only three. I could give you more
examples, such an amazing afternoon, but hes taking a rare nap and I'm off
to do dishes.
I've read through everything and am going to let it all saturate. Thanks
again for all of your thoughtful responses.
Best,
Sasha
Recent Activity:
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Catherine Hassall
re. Violent Media is good for kids article and Sasha's thoughts about
Waldorf philosophy . . .
when researching to school or unschool, I visited a Steiner school and
spoke with the teacher our daughter would have. I asked about her
approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
hands' . . .they talk about gentle hands and draw pictures about
gentle hands. This was the single most alarming thing I heard! If a
child was feeling rage for someone reason, expressed it and then an
adult being using a singsong tone to allow only 'gentle hands',
locking a child in such an emotional prison could be so damaging. It
would seem to completely deny any anger or rage within the human range
of feeling. I think this is where Steiner/Waldorf is problematic - it
taboos some parts of human life. Sasha, your sons interest in Batman
and associated aspects of violence does not veto his investigation
also of gentleness and kindness.
catherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Waldorf philosophy . . .
when researching to school or unschool, I visited a Steiner school and
spoke with the teacher our daughter would have. I asked about her
approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
hands' . . .they talk about gentle hands and draw pictures about
gentle hands. This was the single most alarming thing I heard! If a
child was feeling rage for someone reason, expressed it and then an
adult being using a singsong tone to allow only 'gentle hands',
locking a child in such an emotional prison could be so damaging. It
would seem to completely deny any anger or rage within the human range
of feeling. I think this is where Steiner/Waldorf is problematic - it
taboos some parts of human life. Sasha, your sons interest in Batman
and associated aspects of violence does not veto his investigation
also of gentleness and kindness.
catherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
Just a comment; I HATED the sing song voice thing as a child. I think that
it was because it is at best patronizing for someone to sing to you about
things and also because my parents always spoke to me and my brother like we
were people and not morons. Maybe they would speak slower when we were very
young but they never dumbed things down or talked to us as though we were
less capable of understanding. They also never belittled questions, so we
always felt comfortable asking them what they meant when we didn't
understand what they said.
On a side note, it took years before I could even watch opera and I think
that it has something to do with the fact that opera is usually people
singing instead of talking. My hope is that I haven't somehow contributed
to closing my children off to some experience through some thoughtless or
well intentioned action.
Chris
it was because it is at best patronizing for someone to sing to you about
things and also because my parents always spoke to me and my brother like we
were people and not morons. Maybe they would speak slower when we were very
young but they never dumbed things down or talked to us as though we were
less capable of understanding. They also never belittled questions, so we
always felt comfortable asking them what they meant when we didn't
understand what they said.
On a side note, it took years before I could even watch opera and I think
that it has something to do with the fact that opera is usually people
singing instead of talking. My hope is that I haven't somehow contributed
to closing my children off to some experience through some thoughtless or
well intentioned action.
Chris
On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:27 PM, Catherine Hassall <cat@...>wrote:
>
>
> re. Violent Media is good for kids article and Sasha's thoughts about
> Waldorf philosophy . . .
>
> when researching to school or unschool, I visited a Steiner school and
> spoke with the teacher our daughter would have. I asked about her
> approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
> chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
> hands' . . .they talk about gentle hands and draw pictures about
> gentle hands. This was the single most alarming thing I heard! If a
> child was feeling rage for someone reason, expressed it and then an
> adult being using a singsong tone to allow only 'gentle hands',
> locking a child in such an emotional prison could be so damaging. It
> would seem to completely deny any anger or rage within the human range
> of feeling. I think this is where Steiner/Waldorf is problematic - it
> taboos some parts of human life. Sasha, your sons interest in Batman
> and associated aspects of violence does not veto his investigation
> also of gentleness and kindness.
>
> catherine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I asked about her
approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
hands' . . .they talk about gentle hands and draw pictures about
gentle hands. This was the single most alarming thing I heard! -=-
When one or two adults is managing fifteen or twenty or more children, that's not the time to encourage a child to be rough, hit, or express a full range of emotions.
-=- If a
child was feeling rage for someone reason, expressed it and then an
adult being using a singsong tone to allow only 'gentle hands',
locking a child in such an emotional prison could be so damaging.-=-
School doesn't exist for the mental health of individual children, and one child's expression of rage can't be allowed to endanger another child, even if the other child somehow could have overtly and purposefully created the rage. (And no child can create rage in another child anyway.)
-=. It would seem to completely deny any anger or rage within the human range of feeling.-=-
More likely they're doing what you would want them to do, as a parent, and trying to maintain the physical safety of the children there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
hands' . . .they talk about gentle hands and draw pictures about
gentle hands. This was the single most alarming thing I heard! -=-
When one or two adults is managing fifteen or twenty or more children, that's not the time to encourage a child to be rough, hit, or express a full range of emotions.
-=- If a
child was feeling rage for someone reason, expressed it and then an
adult being using a singsong tone to allow only 'gentle hands',
locking a child in such an emotional prison could be so damaging.-=-
School doesn't exist for the mental health of individual children, and one child's expression of rage can't be allowed to endanger another child, even if the other child somehow could have overtly and purposefully created the rage. (And no child can create rage in another child anyway.)
-=. It would seem to completely deny any anger or rage within the human range of feeling.-=-
More likely they're doing what you would want them to do, as a parent, and trying to maintain the physical safety of the children there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/18/2011 1:32 PM, Sasha ViaSasha wrote:
one thing will lead to another and the world will be opened up to them.
Any interest can open doors to all kinds of other things.
I think you SHOULD take it seriously - not in the way you mean it,
though. Take it seriously because your son loves it. Think about what
kind of message you are sending him if you act like there is something
wrong with his passionate interest. He will stop trusting his own
interests. He will feel guilty about them, like there is something wrong
with him for liking them. And he will eventually hide it from you.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My son and I played Batman and Robin all afternoon with full abandon. IIt hardly matters at ALL what a child's passion is - if you support it,
> noticed quite a few things that I hadn't before. One thing I noticed for
> sure: My son does not take batman as seriously as I do. I'm definitely going
> to check out a comic book store, that's a great oh duh suggestion that I'm
> embarrassed not to have thought of.
one thing will lead to another and the world will be opened up to them.
Any interest can open doors to all kinds of other things.
I think you SHOULD take it seriously - not in the way you mean it,
though. Take it seriously because your son loves it. Think about what
kind of message you are sending him if you act like there is something
wrong with his passionate interest. He will stop trusting his own
interests. He will feel guilty about them, like there is something wrong
with him for liking them. And he will eventually hide it from you.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Just a comment; I HATED the sing song voice thing as a child. I think that
it was because it is at best patronizing for someone to sing to you about
things and also because my parents always spoke to me and my brother like we
were people and not morons. -=-
There is a lot of negativity there. "HATED" and "morons" are the worst of it.
It's good when choices can be made rationally and constructively, rather than reactively and emotionally.
-=On a side note, it took years before I could even watch opera and I think
that it has something to do with the fact that opera is usually people
singing instead of talking. My hope is that I haven't somehow contributed
to closing my children off to some experience through some thoughtless or
well intentioned action.-=-
Opera is be definition people ALWAYS singing and not talking. :-)
You seem to be suggesting that having been exposed to sing-songy voices closed you off to the possibility of liking opera. That it was external to you rather than your reactions and thoughts.
It's possible you're just irritated by singing.
I sing, my kids sing, there's a lot of singing at our house, and my kids know some musical theatre (not classical opera much). Yesterday I said "Marty, Holly and I are going to see Gilbert and Sullivan at Popejoy, but I didn't invite you."
He said eagerly, "Really? Gilbert and Sullivan themselves are going to be at Popejoy!?" Very enthusiastically and sarcastically.
It's on a Sunday at 3:00, the only showing, and he has something he always does on Sundays. He asked which one it was and I said "The Mikado," and he said "Don't know it; don't care."
"If it had been HMS Pinafore, you'd've wanted to go?" He shrugged positively and waggled his head some.
"Pirates of Penzance?" Nodded solidly.
He's 22.
The day before, I had told him, "When I go to England, I should forget modern stuff. No Lion King or that. I should go see Gilbert and Sullivan." The next morning by e-mail there was an offering for tickets for a single local performance of a traveling show.
I'm telling that for a couple of reasons. People ask, "Yes, but HOW..." about conversations and suggestions, and there's a fresh example.
Communicating things lightly and positively gives kids an opportunity to think on their own rather than to be reactive to a parent's suggestions or opinions or attitudes. It's worth remembering.
The reason I wrote "It's possible you're just irritated by singing" is that a girl I've known since birth, a bit older than my kids, has two parents who are artists but not good singers. She was very artistic as a kid--sculpted things, built things out of paper and cardboard and foil, drew. When she was at our house she would sometimes say "Stop singing," to my kids who didn't even realize they were singing. She asked me once, "Why are they always singing?" It just bugged her. She preferred it quiet.
The sing-songy voice is good to avoid, even for people who didn't mind it much as a child. Here's a fun story:
Even the nicest of words can be ruined, though, if they're spoken in a condescending, treacly way. It's not bad for infants, and it's great for French poodles. It's that talking-to-a-French-poodle voice, and the thoughts that go with it, that should be avoided when parents are talking to their children. Dan Vilter shared this story on the AlwaysLearning list in 2001:
At a park day, we were having a discussion about the usefulness of praise and sincerity. The unschoolers in the group were trying to point out the fallacy of over and insincere praise, and indirectly about treating your children as people first. After much talk getting nowhere, one of the other unschooling parents turned to me and in the French poodle voice started thanking me for all the things I had done for the group that day. Something like,"Oh Dan, thank you for bringing the stove for hot cocoa. You did such a good job setting it up and heating the water! You're so strong carrying that big jug of water all by yourself!" Everyone had a good laugh and the point was succinctly made.
�Dan Vilter
http://sandradodd.com/tone
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it was because it is at best patronizing for someone to sing to you about
things and also because my parents always spoke to me and my brother like we
were people and not morons. -=-
There is a lot of negativity there. "HATED" and "morons" are the worst of it.
It's good when choices can be made rationally and constructively, rather than reactively and emotionally.
-=On a side note, it took years before I could even watch opera and I think
that it has something to do with the fact that opera is usually people
singing instead of talking. My hope is that I haven't somehow contributed
to closing my children off to some experience through some thoughtless or
well intentioned action.-=-
Opera is be definition people ALWAYS singing and not talking. :-)
You seem to be suggesting that having been exposed to sing-songy voices closed you off to the possibility of liking opera. That it was external to you rather than your reactions and thoughts.
It's possible you're just irritated by singing.
I sing, my kids sing, there's a lot of singing at our house, and my kids know some musical theatre (not classical opera much). Yesterday I said "Marty, Holly and I are going to see Gilbert and Sullivan at Popejoy, but I didn't invite you."
He said eagerly, "Really? Gilbert and Sullivan themselves are going to be at Popejoy!?" Very enthusiastically and sarcastically.
It's on a Sunday at 3:00, the only showing, and he has something he always does on Sundays. He asked which one it was and I said "The Mikado," and he said "Don't know it; don't care."
"If it had been HMS Pinafore, you'd've wanted to go?" He shrugged positively and waggled his head some.
"Pirates of Penzance?" Nodded solidly.
He's 22.
The day before, I had told him, "When I go to England, I should forget modern stuff. No Lion King or that. I should go see Gilbert and Sullivan." The next morning by e-mail there was an offering for tickets for a single local performance of a traveling show.
I'm telling that for a couple of reasons. People ask, "Yes, but HOW..." about conversations and suggestions, and there's a fresh example.
Communicating things lightly and positively gives kids an opportunity to think on their own rather than to be reactive to a parent's suggestions or opinions or attitudes. It's worth remembering.
The reason I wrote "It's possible you're just irritated by singing" is that a girl I've known since birth, a bit older than my kids, has two parents who are artists but not good singers. She was very artistic as a kid--sculpted things, built things out of paper and cardboard and foil, drew. When she was at our house she would sometimes say "Stop singing," to my kids who didn't even realize they were singing. She asked me once, "Why are they always singing?" It just bugged her. She preferred it quiet.
The sing-songy voice is good to avoid, even for people who didn't mind it much as a child. Here's a fun story:
Even the nicest of words can be ruined, though, if they're spoken in a condescending, treacly way. It's not bad for infants, and it's great for French poodles. It's that talking-to-a-French-poodle voice, and the thoughts that go with it, that should be avoided when parents are talking to their children. Dan Vilter shared this story on the AlwaysLearning list in 2001:
At a park day, we were having a discussion about the usefulness of praise and sincerity. The unschoolers in the group were trying to point out the fallacy of over and insincere praise, and indirectly about treating your children as people first. After much talk getting nowhere, one of the other unschooling parents turned to me and in the French poodle voice started thanking me for all the things I had done for the group that day. Something like,"Oh Dan, thank you for bringing the stove for hot cocoa. You did such a good job setting it up and heating the water! You're so strong carrying that big jug of water all by yourself!" Everyone had a good laugh and the point was succinctly made.
�Dan Vilter
http://sandradodd.com/tone
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Catherine Hassall <cat@...> wrote:
I mention that lest someone think there's something special in the Steiner approach that lets them *create* gentle children out of a mixed bag of personalities. Unschooling, otoh, is applicable to All children ;)
---Meredith
> I visited a Steiner school andSome of these schools actively screen out very active kids, especially if they have a lot of independence. I know a couple families who've been rejected by Waldorf schools because their kids were energetic, explorative types. I've heard of kids being kicked out of those schools, too, for behavior issues.
> spoke with the teacher our daughter would have. I asked about her
> approach toward 'difficult' behaviours and she told me that when
> chldren are rough or hit each other then the do 'gentle
> hands' . . .
I mention that lest someone think there's something special in the Steiner approach that lets them *create* gentle children out of a mixed bag of personalities. Unschooling, otoh, is applicable to All children ;)
---Meredith