Re: [AlwaysLearning] destruction of property
[email protected]
I have known about unschooling for about four years, and have periodically been integrating more of its ideas over the years. I finally "got it" recently, and have been unschooling in earnest for the past eight weeks. I have three children: Delaney is seven, Brennan is five, and Ruby is three. I took the older two out of school at the halfway point this year to homeschool.
A lot of things are going great. My focus has shifted from work and alone time to family. That was the important "aha" moment. I am happier than I've ever been, enjoying life with my family in the moment. The kids are happy and thriving, and I am seeing the kinds of learning connections I've read about here.
Life has gotten a little messy, though. Perhaps I've jumped into "always say yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means. The kids are very messy, especially with food. They can trash a room in a matter of minutes. It's not on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness. They don't notice the mess until it is overwhelming, and then they just move to another room. I have been happy to help them clean, and I had prioritized family and learning over a clean house, but I can't keep up with this kind of mess, and things are getting destroyed.
Where am I while this is occurring, you may ask? Often, I'm trying to clean up yesterday's mess. Sometimes, I'm trying to spend an hour alone with my husband (we don't get any time together by ourselves anymore, which is another problem). And sometimes, I'm too sick to get off the couch. I have bipolar disorder and adrenal fatigue. I have been sick as long as they've been alive, and I'm sure this has directly affected the messiness. There are periods of time (about every one to two months) when I can only survive. Unschooling has been wonderful for me in this area, as now we use this time to cuddle on the couch together, instead of trying to juggle a schooled child's needs.
We have tried locking up the food, but the oldest one can unlock it. We have tried setting limits on where the food can be, but the kids forget. After reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do this yet.
What else am I missing, ladies?
-Anna
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
A lot of things are going great. My focus has shifted from work and alone time to family. That was the important "aha" moment. I am happier than I've ever been, enjoying life with my family in the moment. The kids are happy and thriving, and I am seeing the kinds of learning connections I've read about here.
Life has gotten a little messy, though. Perhaps I've jumped into "always say yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means. The kids are very messy, especially with food. They can trash a room in a matter of minutes. It's not on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness. They don't notice the mess until it is overwhelming, and then they just move to another room. I have been happy to help them clean, and I had prioritized family and learning over a clean house, but I can't keep up with this kind of mess, and things are getting destroyed.
Where am I while this is occurring, you may ask? Often, I'm trying to clean up yesterday's mess. Sometimes, I'm trying to spend an hour alone with my husband (we don't get any time together by ourselves anymore, which is another problem). And sometimes, I'm too sick to get off the couch. I have bipolar disorder and adrenal fatigue. I have been sick as long as they've been alive, and I'm sure this has directly affected the messiness. There are periods of time (about every one to two months) when I can only survive. Unschooling has been wonderful for me in this area, as now we use this time to cuddle on the couch together, instead of trying to juggle a schooled child's needs.
We have tried locking up the food, but the oldest one can unlock it. We have tried setting limits on where the food can be, but the kids forget. After reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do this yet.
What else am I missing, ladies?
-Anna
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Jenny Cyphers
***Life has gotten a little messy, though. Perhaps I've jumped into "always say
yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means. The kids are very messy,
especially with food. They can trash a room in a matter of minutes. It's not
on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix
dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness.***
One way to shift that is to make projects. If the goal is experimentation with
common household kitchen items, then find some cool things to do and help to set
it up and then help to clean it up. Initiate the project before they go and do
it themselves. It might be enough to satisfy their curiosity and keep them from
solo exploration. In those moments where you feel you can't be there for every
moment of the exploration, set them up outside with specific items to explore.
If it's still too cold outside, set them up in a specific area with those same
specific items and then after a good amount of time, bring in towels and a clean
up bucket and get everyone and everything cleaned up.
For paints, we have large pieces of cardboard that we put down on the floor.
Once the painting is done, all the brushes and other painting objects get put
in the sink. Little hands and feet get wiped down with towels, or put into a
bath. After those immediate aspects are taken care of, the rest of it is easy,
picking up and placing finished projects to a safe area to dry, or whatever, put
cardboard away, rinse out brushes and put away. Meanwhile, the kids are either
safely in a tub or have been moved on to another less messy play. Often it
means putting on a movie and brining out something else like legos or puzzles or
dolls BEFORE I finish the clean up process. My youngest is 9 now, so she's much
more self sufficient in this way, but at 3 and 5 and 7, this is what I did.
***We have tried locking up the food, but the oldest one can unlock it. We have
tried setting limits on where the food can be, but the kids forget. After
reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them
all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do
this yet.***
If it is mostly kitchen mess that you are having to contend with, set up an area
in the kitchen with things that are just for the kids. I always kept play dough
in the kitchen and kid kitchen toys. If you feel like it will work, put
experimental things together for them to use so that they won't need to get into
all the main kitchen things. That will be their stuff to use and the rest of
the kitchen stuff can be off limits. My kids never had a problem with that
arrangement. Once they knew that a certain portion was theirs to use they never
felt like getting into the rest.
I also did projects. I helped make play dough and magic muck and all that fun
stuff. The need for experimentation was generally satisfied with those
experiments. The left overs were put with the kid kitchen stuff to be used when
they were in the mood. It made the initial mess smaller because I was there to
contain it and clean it up right after. It made the remainder of the mess
smaller because the left overs were smaller and more contained. When I would go
in the kitchen to cook or wash dishes, I'd invite my kids in and bring out their
stuff to play with while I was in there already.
I would NOT be okay with my kids going into my kitchen and pulling out whatever
they wanted to pull out and make a huge mess out of it. I never encouraged that
and my kids never got the impression that it was okay to do so. BUT they also
knew that they could, at any time, do kitchen projects with or without my
presence.
The difference that I see here, is that YOU, the mom, need to be initiating all
of the projects for a while, not just be there with them while they make messes,
create and design the mess yourself. Set it up and play with the project with
your kids. When they seem done, help them clean their hands and whatever else
and then set them up with something else to do immediately and then get back in
to do a quick clean up while they are occupied.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means. The kids are very messy,
especially with food. They can trash a room in a matter of minutes. It's not
on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix
dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness.***
One way to shift that is to make projects. If the goal is experimentation with
common household kitchen items, then find some cool things to do and help to set
it up and then help to clean it up. Initiate the project before they go and do
it themselves. It might be enough to satisfy their curiosity and keep them from
solo exploration. In those moments where you feel you can't be there for every
moment of the exploration, set them up outside with specific items to explore.
If it's still too cold outside, set them up in a specific area with those same
specific items and then after a good amount of time, bring in towels and a clean
up bucket and get everyone and everything cleaned up.
For paints, we have large pieces of cardboard that we put down on the floor.
Once the painting is done, all the brushes and other painting objects get put
in the sink. Little hands and feet get wiped down with towels, or put into a
bath. After those immediate aspects are taken care of, the rest of it is easy,
picking up and placing finished projects to a safe area to dry, or whatever, put
cardboard away, rinse out brushes and put away. Meanwhile, the kids are either
safely in a tub or have been moved on to another less messy play. Often it
means putting on a movie and brining out something else like legos or puzzles or
dolls BEFORE I finish the clean up process. My youngest is 9 now, so she's much
more self sufficient in this way, but at 3 and 5 and 7, this is what I did.
***We have tried locking up the food, but the oldest one can unlock it. We have
tried setting limits on where the food can be, but the kids forget. After
reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them
all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do
this yet.***
If it is mostly kitchen mess that you are having to contend with, set up an area
in the kitchen with things that are just for the kids. I always kept play dough
in the kitchen and kid kitchen toys. If you feel like it will work, put
experimental things together for them to use so that they won't need to get into
all the main kitchen things. That will be their stuff to use and the rest of
the kitchen stuff can be off limits. My kids never had a problem with that
arrangement. Once they knew that a certain portion was theirs to use they never
felt like getting into the rest.
I also did projects. I helped make play dough and magic muck and all that fun
stuff. The need for experimentation was generally satisfied with those
experiments. The left overs were put with the kid kitchen stuff to be used when
they were in the mood. It made the initial mess smaller because I was there to
contain it and clean it up right after. It made the remainder of the mess
smaller because the left overs were smaller and more contained. When I would go
in the kitchen to cook or wash dishes, I'd invite my kids in and bring out their
stuff to play with while I was in there already.
I would NOT be okay with my kids going into my kitchen and pulling out whatever
they wanted to pull out and make a huge mess out of it. I never encouraged that
and my kids never got the impression that it was okay to do so. BUT they also
knew that they could, at any time, do kitchen projects with or without my
presence.
The difference that I see here, is that YOU, the mom, need to be initiating all
of the projects for a while, not just be there with them while they make messes,
create and design the mess yourself. Set it up and play with the project with
your kids. When they seem done, help them clean their hands and whatever else
and then set them up with something else to do immediately and then get back in
to do a quick clean up while they are occupied.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I finally "got it" recently, and have been unschooling in earnest for the past eight weeks. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are stages of "getting it." One "aha!" moment can make a big change, but it's not "getting it" if the kids are mixing dish soap and ketchup while the mom is too ill to be with them. Thinking that there is some kind of rule that says "never say no" isn't really getting it.
The page about yes doesn't say "always say yes" followed by a period and the end of the page. Tell the kids to leave the dish soap alone. If they don't, say "I said to leave it alone," and don't coo and apologize about it. If something is not a good thing to do, say no. My children never once mixed dish soap and ketchup, and if they had wanted to, I would have helped them put just a little bit in a dish (or put some soap on a plate that had some ketchup left on it, in the process of rinsing the plate). If they want to play with dish soap, give them a tiny container of it when they're in the bathtub or the shower.
There are things to play with, and there are things not to play with. Then there are some options parents can choose to offer or approve, like maybe using toilet paper to wrap a kid like a mummy, or to dampen slightly and use for sculpture, but if a parent felt obligated to allow a child to do whatever he wanted to with the last roll of toilet paper in the house, that's beyond creating an unschooling nest. Unschooling nests should be filled with happy interactions with parents, with music, movies, picture books, games.
-=- After reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do this yet.-=-
After reading those posts, did you consider calling your post "mishandling of property" rather than "destruction"?
-=-What else am I missing, ladies? -=-
There are dads on the list too, who might have ideas.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are stages of "getting it." One "aha!" moment can make a big change, but it's not "getting it" if the kids are mixing dish soap and ketchup while the mom is too ill to be with them. Thinking that there is some kind of rule that says "never say no" isn't really getting it.
The page about yes doesn't say "always say yes" followed by a period and the end of the page. Tell the kids to leave the dish soap alone. If they don't, say "I said to leave it alone," and don't coo and apologize about it. If something is not a good thing to do, say no. My children never once mixed dish soap and ketchup, and if they had wanted to, I would have helped them put just a little bit in a dish (or put some soap on a plate that had some ketchup left on it, in the process of rinsing the plate). If they want to play with dish soap, give them a tiny container of it when they're in the bathtub or the shower.
There are things to play with, and there are things not to play with. Then there are some options parents can choose to offer or approve, like maybe using toilet paper to wrap a kid like a mummy, or to dampen slightly and use for sculpture, but if a parent felt obligated to allow a child to do whatever he wanted to with the last roll of toilet paper in the house, that's beyond creating an unschooling nest. Unschooling nests should be filled with happy interactions with parents, with music, movies, picture books, games.
-=- After reading the posts about mishandling of animals, I can see that being with them all the time would be a good way to handle it. I haven't figured out how to do this yet.-=-
After reading those posts, did you consider calling your post "mishandling of property" rather than "destruction"?
-=-What else am I missing, ladies? -=-
There are dads on the list too, who might have ideas.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
plaidpanties666
akgreeley@... wrote:
A couple months isn't very long. It could be you just haven't caught up to the changes, yet.
What sorts of things are getting destroyed? Can you put some things in storage for awhile? I had a lovely old table with cabriole legs - those curvy swoopy legs that are sooooo fragile - and Mo climbed before she walked. After a week of panicking over "baby on the table" I put it in storage and eventually gave it to a friend. It was better than worrying that those daity legs would break with one toddler wiggle too many.
They'll need lots and lots of gentle reminders for a while.
What kinds of limits did you try? Limiting food *to* one room is much more difficult than keeping food *out* of one room, or keeping food on tables. Food on tables makes cleanup easier - it's at least easier to find the empty plates and wipe down the table than to dig through the couch :P And if you're easy-going about what constitutes a "table" that helps, too - we have several little plastic tables, but also will throw a drawing board across a trash-can, or upend a box and create a table. Whatever you try, be clear that the *purpose* is to make it easier for mom to find the empty cups and plates and wash them.
Others have suggested being more proactive about having projects and items set aside especially for kid-experiments, and that's something that worked well, here. Spices and condiments are especially fun for experiments *and* you can usually find extra-cheap varieties, too - look at dollar store type places for those. Dollar stores are also good places to buy "ketchup and mustard" containers - little squirt bottles - which are handy for mixing and then squirting.
Oh, and encourage experiments in the bathroom, especially the tub. You can squirt and smear a whooooole lot of things on the shower curtain and tub without it being a gigantic hassle to clean up.
An hour is too long to leave curious little people to their own devices. Learn to get your needs met in shorter increments. To do that, it helps to separate them out - don't expect adult conversation and cuddling and privacy and sex all in one go. Work conversation and cuddling in around the kids whenever you can - and flirting too - and find other times for privacy and sex.
---Meredith
>> Life has gotten a little messy, though. Perhaps I've jumped into "always say yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means.****************
A couple months isn't very long. It could be you just haven't caught up to the changes, yet.
>>I can't keep up with this kind of mess, and things are getting destroyedYour old strategies no longer apply, and you haven't found new ones, yet. Looks for ways to streamline housekeeping so that you aren't overwhelmed - do some experimenting. Put down vinyl table cloths - or plastic bags or drop cloths - to protect surfaces from overenthusiastic experimenters. Put down sheets under projects and games with small parts so you can scoop the whole schebang up and bundle it away to sort later. Have hampers and bins in every room so you can whoosh through, toss dirty socks into one bin and toys into another while you gather up cups and plates. Maybe use disposables for awhile until you get your feet under you.
What sorts of things are getting destroyed? Can you put some things in storage for awhile? I had a lovely old table with cabriole legs - those curvy swoopy legs that are sooooo fragile - and Mo climbed before she walked. After a week of panicking over "baby on the table" I put it in storage and eventually gave it to a friend. It was better than worrying that those daity legs would break with one toddler wiggle too many.
> We have tried locking up the food, but the oldest one can unlock it. We have tried setting limits on where the food can be, but the kids forget.*************************
They'll need lots and lots of gentle reminders for a while.
What kinds of limits did you try? Limiting food *to* one room is much more difficult than keeping food *out* of one room, or keeping food on tables. Food on tables makes cleanup easier - it's at least easier to find the empty plates and wipe down the table than to dig through the couch :P And if you're easy-going about what constitutes a "table" that helps, too - we have several little plastic tables, but also will throw a drawing board across a trash-can, or upend a box and create a table. Whatever you try, be clear that the *purpose* is to make it easier for mom to find the empty cups and plates and wash them.
Others have suggested being more proactive about having projects and items set aside especially for kid-experiments, and that's something that worked well, here. Spices and condiments are especially fun for experiments *and* you can usually find extra-cheap varieties, too - look at dollar store type places for those. Dollar stores are also good places to buy "ketchup and mustard" containers - little squirt bottles - which are handy for mixing and then squirting.
Oh, and encourage experiments in the bathroom, especially the tub. You can squirt and smear a whooooole lot of things on the shower curtain and tub without it being a gigantic hassle to clean up.
>>Sometimes, I'm trying to spend an hour alone with my husband (we don't get any time together by ourselves anymore, which is another problem).****************
An hour is too long to leave curious little people to their own devices. Learn to get your needs met in shorter increments. To do that, it helps to separate them out - don't expect adult conversation and cuddling and privacy and sex all in one go. Work conversation and cuddling in around the kids whenever you can - and flirting too - and find other times for privacy and sex.
---Meredith
sheeboo2
-----They can trash a room in a matter of minutes. It's not
on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix
dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness.
They don't notice the mess until it is overwhelming, and then they just move to
another room. I have been happy to help them clean, and I had prioritized
family and learning over a clean house, but I can't keep up with this kind of
mess, and things are getting destroyed.-------
The way we keep a majority of the BIG messy stuff manageable is by keeping fun things set up outside, even during the winter (minus the hose).
Think outside the (sand)box...sorry....set up any outside area you have, even an apartment balcony would work, for mixing/pouring/potions/science experiments/mud pies....save all take-out and plastic food jugs and containers/lids, old/beat up pots, pans, utensils, strainer, muffin tins.......
We have a small cabinet, with a table top, next to the house so things stay relatively warm, and it has held various combinations of baking soda, corn starch, salt, food coloring, liquid water colors, vinegar, oil, shaving creme, dried flowers/plants/herbs, a basket of dead bugs, and other things I'm probably forgetting.
Until recently, there were also a bunch of glass mason jars w/lids, but I finally replaced those with a few sets of plastic beakers in stands that Noor had been asking for (from here--they have bags of pipettes and eye-droppers too: http://tinyurl.com/4ky53o3). When Noor was younger, we also had a freebie plastic kitchen stove set outside.
Set up a table near some dirt, sand, stones, grass, and if these things aren't available, consider filling a plastic kiddie pool with some. Or, you can store everything in plastic tubs.
I came across these pictures not long ago--they might be fun inspiration:
http://pepperpaints.com/2010/07/07/our-mud-pie-kitchen/
You'll still have to pay attention attention; when you see these kinds of creations about to take place, remind your kids that they're welcome to do whatever, as long as they do it outside or in the bath or wherever you've decided is okay.
Brie
on-purpose destructiveness. A lot of it is a "let's see what happens when I mix
dish soap with ketchup" kind of mentality. The rest of it is non-awareness.
They don't notice the mess until it is overwhelming, and then they just move to
another room. I have been happy to help them clean, and I had prioritized
family and learning over a clean house, but I can't keep up with this kind of
mess, and things are getting destroyed.-------
The way we keep a majority of the BIG messy stuff manageable is by keeping fun things set up outside, even during the winter (minus the hose).
Think outside the (sand)box...sorry....set up any outside area you have, even an apartment balcony would work, for mixing/pouring/potions/science experiments/mud pies....save all take-out and plastic food jugs and containers/lids, old/beat up pots, pans, utensils, strainer, muffin tins.......
We have a small cabinet, with a table top, next to the house so things stay relatively warm, and it has held various combinations of baking soda, corn starch, salt, food coloring, liquid water colors, vinegar, oil, shaving creme, dried flowers/plants/herbs, a basket of dead bugs, and other things I'm probably forgetting.
Until recently, there were also a bunch of glass mason jars w/lids, but I finally replaced those with a few sets of plastic beakers in stands that Noor had been asking for (from here--they have bags of pipettes and eye-droppers too: http://tinyurl.com/4ky53o3). When Noor was younger, we also had a freebie plastic kitchen stove set outside.
Set up a table near some dirt, sand, stones, grass, and if these things aren't available, consider filling a plastic kiddie pool with some. Or, you can store everything in plastic tubs.
I came across these pictures not long ago--they might be fun inspiration:
http://pepperpaints.com/2010/07/07/our-mud-pie-kitchen/
You'll still have to pay attention attention; when you see these kinds of creations about to take place, remind your kids that they're welcome to do whatever, as long as they do it outside or in the bath or wherever you've decided is okay.
Brie
sheeboo2
Sorry, I really meant to drop this link: http://progressiveearlychildhoodeducation.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html, which has LOTS of great ideas for setting up outside play areas. Check out the water walls too: http://progressiveearlychildhoodeducation.blogspot.com/search/label/getting%20wet
It is a lovely blog, full of great ideas for creating rich environments, if you ignore the schooly stuff :-)
Brie
It is a lovely blog, full of great ideas for creating rich environments, if you ignore the schooly stuff :-)
Brie
alma
--- In [email protected], akgreeley@... wrote:
Perhaps I've jumped into "always say yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means.
You cannot, nor should you, always say yes. I prefer to think of it as "finding the yes", where possible. So when one of my kids says "Can I [fill in the blank]?" I try to swallow and breathe before I answer. Sometimes it's a straightforward "Yes of course", sometimes a "Yes - can you reach or would you like me to get it down for you?" They are the easy yeses. But there are loads of times that, in my pre unschooling days I would have said no. I now consider each one. Sometimes it really is no, because something is not safe for example, or daddy is still sleeping, and then I explain why. But, and these are my post unschooling yeses, sometimes I find a way to say yes despite my initial urge to say no. These are when I say yes despite being tired or not feeling like doing whatever it is. Or when I say YES, but let's do it in the morning because ... or YES, we can pop out to the shop to get it now or wait til tomorrow when ..., or YES, but you'll only have 10 minutes before ... or YES, if we can keep it in the kitchen or bathtub, or YES, but there is nearly-ready chicken in the oven, or YES, let me hold the ladder for you, or ....... etc etc.
My children are so confident that I will say yes when possible they are pretty good at accepting when I say no.
I read someone say (I can't credit it unfortunately because I don't remember where I read it) "I don't LET my children do what they want, I HELP them do what they want."
That was a real "aha" for me because it is not about permissiveness or chaos or always saying yes but rather a considered and active partnering with your children in their desires.
Alison
DS(8) and DS(6)
Sandra Dodd
-=-My children are so confident that I will say yes when possible they are pretty good at accepting when I say no.-=-
That's how it worked out for us, and my kids still will "take no for an answer" (a phrase that is not my phrase, and one that's often used in oppositional ways).
I was also always willing to hear an appeal or other information I might not have known, so there were times I said no, or "that doesn't sound like a good idea," and they were able to provide more evidence. But if a mom wants her decisions to be heard, regarded, and occasionally to be the final word, period, she needs to save "no" for the really important things.
In a discussion of such things at a gathering in NYC recently, Erika Davis-Pitre said with feeling "We have to pick our no's."
It doesn't come out in the air as it does in its spelling. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's how it worked out for us, and my kids still will "take no for an answer" (a phrase that is not my phrase, and one that's often used in oppositional ways).
I was also always willing to hear an appeal or other information I might not have known, so there were times I said no, or "that doesn't sound like a good idea," and they were able to provide more evidence. But if a mom wants her decisions to be heard, regarded, and occasionally to be the final word, period, she needs to save "no" for the really important things.
In a discussion of such things at a gathering in NYC recently, Erika Davis-Pitre said with feeling "We have to pick our no's."
It doesn't come out in the air as it does in its spelling. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guillaume JAY
----- "alma" <almadoing@...> a écrit :
I like your idea of trying to "find the yes".
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> --- In [email protected] , akgreeley@... wrote:When people critize my wife and myself by saying "You're always saying yes to your [spoiled] kids !" my first answer is "We rarely say no".
>
> Perhaps I've jumped into "always say yes" without a clear enough idea of what it means.
>
> You cannot, nor should you, always say yes. I prefer to think of it as "finding the yes", where possible.
I like your idea of trying to "find the yes".
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]