Sandra Dodd

This is discussion about the discussion. Anyone who's very new to unschooling, or in how this list operates, can feel free to skip over it.

I have used this analogy in the past, and will explain it again. If I had been at a public meeting (being the chair or the moderator of the public meeting) and then someone followed me home and accosted me at my front door, that would not be okay. It would not be something that should be kept secret. People don't have the right to follow me home and attempt to hurt me on my own front porch.

This list isn't as simple or wild as some are. Over the nine years and five months the list has been here, the moderators (mostly Joyce and Pam) and I have developed suggestions and advice for people to read, and for us to refer them back to.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Perhaps it seems like "too many rules," but there are pages people are asked to read before they ever post. This is one click from that page:
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:

helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
. . . .
If you don't want to even consider what people are offering as suggestions, keep that to yourself. THINK about what you've read.
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Yesterday in the discussion about mishandling/mistreating pets, I posted this, about side mail:


The Always Learning list doesn't exist so that people can write to posters off
list practically demanding ANYthing.
The purpose is to have a group discussion, not a bunch of little side
conversations. Joining this list or posting to it is not an invitation for
private mail.

If anyone feels the need to write to people on the side, I'm assuming it's
because they don't think their ideas would hold up in the discussion.

If people are receiving unwanted side mail, please feel free to forward it to
me.
____________________________________________________

This morning I woke up to insulting side mail. I don't think it says what the author intended to say, in the first sentence of the second paragraph, and that is very, very important to consider. When a dozen people or more are saying "But words DO matter" and "clarity DOES matter," it's important to note that someone can write something that says the complete opposite (I believe) of what was intended.

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Sandra, I am pretty much done with all of this. Really, you can NEVER admit to me that something you said may have been off base and lots of it was. You nitpick every little word without even thinking about it, maybe you don't know what a know it all you are. It is terrible. I came looking for advice and I am sad that I will not be able to do that anymore. When I try to be honest and say something was offensive you throw it at me about something I did in the past.

I was only trying to explain that I did physically hurt my son as someone had suggested. I can't even explain something without being attacked. I know you will not see that anything you did was mean or offensive and none of writing this really matters because some people will leave your group and feel the same way I feel about you, while others will keep thinking you are so wonderful. It is sad to me that you treat people this way...really. People looking for advice and accepting what they did wrong but STILL attacking them.

I will write a note to the list and then obviously I would like to be removed from it. I get some great advice here from others but just can't take being treated negatively all the whole being told how negative I am or my words are. Thank you.
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"I came looking for advice and I am sad that I will not be able to do that anymore."

This list will still be here, and there's no problem with people continuing to come. There's nothing to be sad about. But it will help if the person is looking for discussion of unschooling, as described in the links at the top of this e-mail.

Joyce wrote a perfect description years back of how discussions go. Once someone asks for advice or brings up a question, she doesn't get to control the discussion that follows.


The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")




-=-I will write a note to the list and then obviously I would like to be removed from it. -=-

Every single e-mail has a link at the bottom for leaving the group. Bottom right. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use

Every yahoogroups page has an "Edit Membership" link at the top, and at the bottom right of the page that opens is a box that says Leave Group.

I don't think someone who is unschooling should leave the list over the fact that people point out to her what she has just written in public. It's the way discussions work, in writing especially. I think people who are unschooling should learn to consider their children's feelings first, above their own.

Sandra




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Jenny Cyphers

***I don't think someone who is unschooling should leave the list over the fact
that people point out to her what she has just written in public. It's the way
discussions work, in writing especially. I think people who are unschooling
should learn to consider their children's feelings first, above their own.***

Here's something interesting to consider... This particular poster also wrote
an identical plea in another unschooling yahoo list. The basic response was the
same. Don't leave your little one unattended with the animals, it is not his
fault that he killed a chic, he has no understanding of it because he is little.
He's not developmentally ready.

The basic difference in the replies in total, from my perspective, is that the
other list, that aside from the above, people said "I'm sorry" and "how sad" and
that sort of thing alongside the basic premise of "don't leave the kid alone
with the pets." What people on this list did, was go a bit further with the
phrasing that was used, got to the underneath of what she wrote.

The idea of abuse was pointed out, mistreatment, and mishandling were all
brought into the light. It is a frame of reference, as in a frame to build a
discussion, or a frame to build anything really. In and around what people
write is a frame. If the frame is unstable, it's not going to hold up whatever
it is intended to hold up. The most helpful part of any unschooling discussion
is the underneath, the "why", the "how", not necessarily the "what", which in
this case was a young child and pets.

If a parent can't get to the underneath part, the unschooling isn't going to be
as shiny as it could be. If the parents aren't being mindful in words and
actions, the frame that holds up unschooling isn't going to last long.

Keeping the young child away from the family pets will most definitely help, but
if the mom is still looking at her child with the understanding that her child
is abusing the pets, the blame will still be on the child and NOT on what mom
can do to change the whole situation. THAT to me, is a significant difference
in whether or not unschooling is going to work well or long. The frame, it
seems, for that mom, is that her child is abusive and how terribly sad and
shocking that is, the loss of life and the shame for reacting badly to her pet
abuser son.

Take away that frame and you have a mom and a son who is too young to understand
how to be gentle to a baby chic. That frame was worth dismantling even if that
particular mom is no longer wanting that frame dismantled. Others will see it
and benefit for sure!





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