k

Children aren't always very good at coming up with ideas about how to
trade peacefully. I think it's a good chance to figure out all sorts
of things, like personal boundaries and negotiating and things like
that. Things that many adults aren't very good at. I'm learning all
the time about this kind of thing too. I feel sort of unskilled at
negotiating especially when it comes to stuff.

Karl and I started going to a local homeschool Legos Club and the
owner and facilitator of that group has called a halt to trading
because children have left feeling bad about the results.

Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
for the children? Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
easier on the children involved? Other ideas than trading to share and
get to use pieces they don't have (can't think of any... )?

~Katherine

Robin Bentley

>
> Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
> for the children? Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
> easier on the children involved? Other ideas than trading to share and
> get to use pieces they don't have (can't think of any... )?

It sounds like kids are feeling pressured to trade something they are
especially attached to (what you said about kids feeling bad afterward
makes me think so).

What if parents and kids selected pieces in advance of the Lego club
meeting - pieces that the children are willing to part with? Then each
parent can help their child be sure in advance what is on the table
for trading and what isn't.
Take a separate box of tradeable items, maybe.

Robin B.

k

That's very helpful. I didn't attend the club meeting where the bad
feelings happened. But Karl and I have been in on tense times when
trading DS games. Similar feelings can arise.

And I agree that being pressured was very likely involved -- the
impromptu nature of traders seeing something they want and trading for
it with pieces that others aren't necessarily as interested in. Boxes
for trade of things a child is willing to let go of makes a lot of
sense.

~Katherine




On 3/9/11, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>>
>> Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
>> for the children? Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
>> easier on the children involved? Other ideas than trading to share and
>> get to use pieces they don't have (can't think of any... )?
>
> It sounds like kids are feeling pressured to trade something they are
> especially attached to (what you said about kids feeling bad afterward
> makes me think so).
>
> What if parents and kids selected pieces in advance of the Lego club
> meeting - pieces that the children are willing to part with? Then each
> parent can help their child be sure in advance what is on the table
> for trading and what isn't.
> Take a separate box of tradeable items, maybe.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Karl and I started going to a local homeschool Legos Club and the
owner and facilitator of that group has called a halt to trading
because children have left feeling bad about the results.-=-

Almost inevitably, fast-talking older kids persuade younger or more passive kids to give them the good cars, in Pokemon and other such trading situations. Probably it's similar.

Maybe having catalogs with the values of the pieces right there would help some?

-=-Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
for the children? Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
easier on the children involved? Other ideas than trading to share and
get to use pieces they don't have (can't think of any... )?-=-

Are they using their own Lego, but in the same room and separately?

-=-Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
for the children?-=-

That's the problem, though. "Success" is in they eye of the winner, the one with the advantageous trade. Absolutely equal trades are quite rare, even among adults.

-=-Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
easier on the children involved? -=-

I think maybe only the adults should trade things, not the kids. Let the moms broker the trades, if there are to be any. Or photograph the trade, and give a buyer's remorse period. (Thought it would be hard to get a kid to remove pieces from someone he had built, and no good way to enforce "give it back.")

I like Robyn's idea of having things chosen in advance for the possibility of trading, or selling, perhaps. (Another use for the price list being there.)

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Or photograph the trade, and give a buyer's remorse period. (Thought it would
be hard to get a kid to remove pieces from someone he had built, and no good way
to enforce "give it back.")***


Something that I've done is to say to all parties, "let's see how that goes and
keep in mind that the other person may want it back." It's like a borrow that
has a potential to last. My kids have done well with that.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I doubt fair often means equal, although I think that's what people
think it means. And knowing what you have and what you want -- that
can be tough to figure. Absolutely, the kids have different abilities
and different stuff to trade that might not be of close or equal
value, in which case trading could wait until a better chance comes
up. Karl isn't confident with trading on his own, and I don't know if
he or every kid in Lego Club are even interested.

It would be good to have a catalog handy for reference and also go
over the value of stuff beforehand. Showing the different things
involved in making trades --about what things are worth and knowing
ahead of time which things the child is ready to use for trade-- makes
a lot of sense.

Cuz that's the other thing: I don't think the kids are the only ones
who care about the outcome. Parents spend to acquire Legos and they
might consider trading down too much not so swift.

~Katherine





On 3/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Karl and I started going to a local homeschool Legos Club and the
> owner and facilitator of that group has called a halt to trading
> because children have left feeling bad about the results.-=-
>
> Almost inevitably, fast-talking older kids persuade younger or more passive
> kids to give them the good cars, in Pokemon and other such trading
> situations. Probably it's similar.
>
> Maybe having catalogs with the values of the pieces right there would help
> some?
>
> -=-Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
> for the children? Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
> easier on the children involved? Other ideas than trading to share and
> get to use pieces they don't have (can't think of any... )?-=-
>
> Are they using their own Lego, but in the same room and separately?
>
> -=-Do any of you have some ideas that would make trading more successful
> for the children?-=-
>
> That's the problem, though. "Success" is in they eye of the winner, the one
> with the advantageous trade. Absolutely equal trades are quite rare, even
> among adults.
>
> -=-Ways to make the transitions involved in trading
> easier on the children involved? -=-
>
> I think maybe only the adults should trade things, not the kids. Let the
> moms broker the trades, if there are to be any. Or photograph the trade,
> and give a buyer's remorse period. (Thought it would be hard to get a kid
> to remove pieces from someone he had built, and no good way to enforce "give
> it back.")
>
> I like Robyn's idea of having things chosen in advance for the possibility
> of trading, or selling, perhaps. (Another use for the price list being
> there.)
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

k

Yes, the idea of temporary trade -borrow has worked really well
between Karl and his long-distance cousins. I think the accountability
of visiting often and being related has something to do with that.

I suggested the idea on the online list, and came up with a no-go on
it. :/ And it's a mixed group of homeschoolers not mostly unschoolers
(Karl and I are the only ones there I know of).

~Katherine



On 3/9/11, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> ***Or photograph the trade, and give a buyer's remorse period. (Thought it
> would
> be hard to get a kid to remove pieces from someone he had built, and no good
> way
> to enforce "give it back.")***
>
>
> Something that I've done is to say to all parties, "let's see how that goes
> and
> keep in mind that the other person may want it back." It's like a borrow
> that
> has a potential to last. My kids have done well with that.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Robin Bentley

-=- Cuz that's the other thing: I don't think the kids are the only ones
who care about the outcome. Parents spend to acquire Legos and they
might consider trading down too much not so swift. =-=

> -=- I suggested the idea on the online list, and came up with a no-
> go on
> it. :/ And it's a mixed group of homeschoolers not mostly unschoolers
> (Karl and I are the only ones there I know of).-=-


So it's the parents who are balking at ideas, not the kids? Maybe
they're the ones having trader's remorse?

The kids might not have anything to say about whether trading
continues or not, if the parents are more interested in stopping the
practice. If their kids don't have input, then ways to make it easier
or more peaceful aren't going to make much difference, I don't think.

Can you suss out the parents' intentions?

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-The kids might not have anything to say about whether trading
continues or not, if the parents are more interested in stopping the
practice. If their kids don't have input, then ways to make it easier
or more peaceful aren't going to make much difference, I don't think.

-=-Can you suss out the parents' intentions?-=-

Whether the parents want to save their own money or whether they want to protect their children's feelings (or integrity), it's a legitimate decision, and the topic might not be helping anyone unschool. It needs to be brought back to general principles, not more toward the particulars of one person/meeting.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

> Whether the parents want to save their own money or whether they
> want to protect their children's feelings (or integrity), it's a
> legitimate decision, and the topic might not be helping anyone
> unschool. It needs to be brought back to general principles, not
> more toward the particulars of one person/meeting.
>
Unschooling principles for me would be about how my child felt about
the trading. If she wanted to do it and had friends and friends'
parents who did also, I would facilitate that, on my own. Separate
from meetings.

Robin B.

lalow

My kids have been involve in a Bakugan club that the the woman that coordinates it made the descision to have no trading. When it first started, they were trading things and one of the kids got upset after he got home. My son and one of his friends have wanted to trade things there so we just ask them to wait till after the club is over and then his Mom and I discuss the trade with them and make sure it mutual. Yesterday this same Mom called to say that her son and James had come to a deal on the sale of a DS game. (James wanted to buy it) She wanted to make sure I knew what was going on and that she had checked the worth of the game after they had descided on an amout to make sure it was appropriate. Again, I talked about it with my son to make sure he was happy with the descision.

k

I have no idea how parents are thinking as they haven't posted
anything. The group leader has called a temporary halt until things
settle a bit and says she hopes things can be figured out since she
knows the kids like to trade.

If it seems like not an unschooling question, that's fine. I don't
need to talk more. Thanks for all the responses. Helpful suggestions
for me to consider presenting to the lady running the club. Maybe.

~Katherine





On 3/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-The kids might not have anything to say about whether trading
> continues or not, if the parents are more interested in stopping the
> practice. If their kids don't have input, then ways to make it easier
> or more peaceful aren't going to make much difference, I don't think.
>
> -=-Can you suss out the parents' intentions?-=-
>
> Whether the parents want to save their own money or whether they want to
> protect their children's feelings (or integrity), it's a legitimate
> decision, and the topic might not be helping anyone unschool. It needs to
> be brought back to general principles, not more toward the particulars of
> one person/meeting.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

dola dasgupta-banerji

We too decided sometime back to keep a separate box of stuff that both my
children did not mind parting with or sharing. That really helped. Even when
we have kids come over for playdates we decide before hand which toys, or
books etc that we can keep out for playing or sharing. The rest we simply
lock away.

I learnt this when my son had been given a lovely tent by his grandparents
and the kids who came for his birthday party simply tore it apart. Poor
Ishaan did not get even a full 24 hours to play in his tent! The feeling
sunk in later after the kids had left.

Dola

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:58 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:

>
>
> ***Or photograph the trade, and give a buyer's remorse period. (Thought it
> would
> be hard to get a kid to remove pieces from someone he had built, and no
> good way
> to enforce "give it back.")***
>
> Something that I've done is to say to all parties, "let's see how that goes
> and
> keep in mind that the other person may want it back." It's like a borrow
> that
> has a potential to last. My kids have done well with that.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 3/9/2011 2:56 PM, k wrote:
> I suggested the idea on the online list, and came up with a no-go on
> it. :/ And it's a mixed group of homeschoolers not mostly unschoolers
> (Karl and I are the only ones there I know of).
Katherine -- is this group even open to changing the way they do things?
Did you join an existing homeschooling group with a leader who already
decided not to allow trading and now you're trying to get them to allow
it again? Why? I mean, why not just go along with the decision that the
group is a "no-trading-allowed" group if that's the way they've already
decided they want it? If you and Karl can't live with that, then maybe
the group is not appropriate for you.

If it isn't a bunch of unschooling families who are committed to
supporting their kids' interests, then it seems you'd probably be just
banging your head on a wall to try to find a more unschoolish solution -
meaning that their priority is not the same as yours. They aren't going
to care as much about supporting the kids' interests in trading as they
are going to be in simply (easily, without a big effort) preventing the
kids from squabbling and ending up unhappy with trades. They probably
won't want to put in the effort that it would take, the trial and error,
the discussion and thought, to figure out a way to help the kids trade
happily. They aren't there for the trading (or for whatever interests
the kids might happen to have). They are there for the specific purpose
of that group - the building. The trading, to them, is a distraction
from why they brought their kids to that group.

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-They aren't going
to care as much about supporting the kids' interests in trading as they
are going to be in simply (easily, without a big effort) preventing the
kids from squabbling and ending up unhappy with trades. -=-

And if only half the kids want to trade, and that happens to be the half that wants to take advantage of weaker, younger other kids, it's just too great a problem.

I think the cardgame shop where Kirby worked only allowed trades outside the shop. If people wanted to trade they had to go out on the sidewalk or somewhere to sit, and discuss the trade. And that was very inconvenient so it didn't much happen. (If I remember, I'll ask Kirby to refresh my memory.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>The group leader [...] hopes things can be figured out since she knows the kids like to trade.<<<

My feeling is that she doesn't want to talk about the issue on the
public group and so I haven't posted more. I think she wants to talk
about it in person aside from the children partly in an attempt to
save arousing more bad feeling for the children (and the adults).
That's my hunch. They are mostly eclectic and school-at-home people, I
think.

I think you're right, Pam, that I am going to have better luck meeting
with unschoolers. I've been feeling out the local scene and it looks
better than it did, even just a couple years ago.

~Katherine






On 3/9/11, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> I have no idea how parents are thinking as they haven't posted
> anything. The group leader has called a temporary halt until things
> settle a bit and says she hopes things can be figured out since she
> knows the kids like to trade.
>
> If it seems like not an unschooling question, that's fine. I don't
> need to talk more. Thanks for all the responses. Helpful suggestions
> for me to consider presenting to the lady running the club. Maybe.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>> -=-The kids might not have anything to say about whether trading
>> continues or not, if the parents are more interested in stopping the
>> practice. If their kids don't have input, then ways to make it easier
>> or more peaceful aren't going to make much difference, I don't think.
>>
>> -=-Can you suss out the parents' intentions?-=-
>>
>> Whether the parents want to save their own money or whether they want to
>> protect their children's feelings (or integrity), it's a legitimate
>> decision, and the topic might not be helping anyone unschool. It needs
>> to
>> be brought back to general principles, not more toward the particulars of
>> one person/meeting.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Lisa E Biesemeyer

Rowan and our neighbor children lend one another toys all the time. Maybe a
"lending library" of sorts could be created. That way the "trade" in only
temporary.


Another idea is to create a database of "available for trade or purchase"
parts/pieces that the parents manage. That way all the transactions are
transparent, and no one feels taken advantage of, etc.

Lisa B

Lisa Biesemeyer




________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Lisa, those are excellent ideas. I will use them at some point in one
group or another, even if this one doesn't work out. But we'll try
another time to see what Karl thinks.

~Katherine




On 3/10/11, Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...> wrote:
> Rowan and our neighbor children lend one another toys all the time. Maybe a
> "lending library" of sorts could be created. That way the "trade" in only
> temporary.
>
>
> Another idea is to create a database of "available for trade or purchase"
> parts/pieces that the parents manage. That way all the transactions are
> transparent, and no one feels taken advantage of, etc.
>
> Lisa B
>
> Lisa Biesemeyer
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>