Does anyone feel limited by being on this list?
Sandra Dodd
If anyone feels her life is limited by being on this list, 1) get a life and 2) don't limit yourself to one list/book/source of information.
If anyone feels limited within this list, that's good. That's the way things are. Swimming pools are not for bonfires. Bowling alleys are not for singalongs. Singalongs are not for political speeches. Political ralleys are not for breastfeeding advice. La Leche League meetings are not for discussing religion. Church is not for swimming.
A list created and maintained for the purpose of discussing unschooling is not intended for and should not encourage or allow anything other than that stated purpose.
That said, someone old enough to have children asked me this morning to remove her from the list. People old enough to figure out how to get ON a yahoogroups mailing list are old enough to figure out how to get off of it.
Then from another list member, I received this. It tells me what I believe (falsely), lumps me in with all other people my age (falsely) and says I'm not accepting or loving. And other things the author might not be aware she said.
---------------------------------------------
Hi Sandra, while I think your list has a lot to offer, I feel it is just too
restrictive for me at this point in my life. I really don't believe that in
life there is only one way to live or one way to parent.
I love many aspects of unschooling, especially the respectful and partnership
approaches to raising children, but I could do without all the prescriptive
"shoulds" and "musts."
I admire your perseverance at what is clearly your life work, and I wish you all
the best with it. You are actually my mom's age and maybe it is your generation
but I find many similarities between you and her in terms of thinking that life
should be one way or not.
Luckily I think my generation is breaking free of this and is more accepting and
more loving and grateful for diversity.
---------------------------------------------
Holly was in here when the note arrived and she said I should ask the mom this: If the mom feels "restricted" by this list, she might want to consider how her children feel about being restricted.
I don't know how many people here would be willing to be welcomed into that poster's "generation" (and I never knew or cared how old she was), but SERIOUSLY!?
Diversity is fine!
This list isn't for the discussion of diversity. I KNOW the readership of the list is hugely diverse. They came here, though, to discuss what will help unschooling work the way it has worked long term in the lives of my family, Pam's Joyce's, Deb's and many other writers here. Not the way a mom who will reject my ideas because I'm as old as her mother thinks or wishes it would work.
I really don't believe that in live there is only one way to live or one way to parent.
I really *DO* believe, because I have seen entire lifetimes be lived, that there are most definitely ways to act, think and be that harm relationships and that prevent unschooling from working.
When people leave the list I don't get notifications. I don't care. I don't take roll, I don't get notifications when people join. I could, but I've had it turned off since the list was created. The only reason for someone to write to me and say "I'm leaving your list now" is to insult me on the way out.
I do have perseverance. :-)
It doesn't mean I appreciate childish behavior.
Parents of children who are considering unschooling should find as many resources as they want. This might be one of them. I've never asked ANYone to make this their only resource.
Those with mother issues might want to attempt to avoid projecting them onto me, and deal with them in an adult fashion, for the good of their children and marriages/partnerships.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
Sandra
If anyone feels limited within this list, that's good. That's the way things are. Swimming pools are not for bonfires. Bowling alleys are not for singalongs. Singalongs are not for political speeches. Political ralleys are not for breastfeeding advice. La Leche League meetings are not for discussing religion. Church is not for swimming.
A list created and maintained for the purpose of discussing unschooling is not intended for and should not encourage or allow anything other than that stated purpose.
That said, someone old enough to have children asked me this morning to remove her from the list. People old enough to figure out how to get ON a yahoogroups mailing list are old enough to figure out how to get off of it.
Then from another list member, I received this. It tells me what I believe (falsely), lumps me in with all other people my age (falsely) and says I'm not accepting or loving. And other things the author might not be aware she said.
---------------------------------------------
Hi Sandra, while I think your list has a lot to offer, I feel it is just too
restrictive for me at this point in my life. I really don't believe that in
life there is only one way to live or one way to parent.
I love many aspects of unschooling, especially the respectful and partnership
approaches to raising children, but I could do without all the prescriptive
"shoulds" and "musts."
I admire your perseverance at what is clearly your life work, and I wish you all
the best with it. You are actually my mom's age and maybe it is your generation
but I find many similarities between you and her in terms of thinking that life
should be one way or not.
Luckily I think my generation is breaking free of this and is more accepting and
more loving and grateful for diversity.
---------------------------------------------
Holly was in here when the note arrived and she said I should ask the mom this: If the mom feels "restricted" by this list, she might want to consider how her children feel about being restricted.
I don't know how many people here would be willing to be welcomed into that poster's "generation" (and I never knew or cared how old she was), but SERIOUSLY!?
Diversity is fine!
This list isn't for the discussion of diversity. I KNOW the readership of the list is hugely diverse. They came here, though, to discuss what will help unschooling work the way it has worked long term in the lives of my family, Pam's Joyce's, Deb's and many other writers here. Not the way a mom who will reject my ideas because I'm as old as her mother thinks or wishes it would work.
I really don't believe that in live there is only one way to live or one way to parent.
I really *DO* believe, because I have seen entire lifetimes be lived, that there are most definitely ways to act, think and be that harm relationships and that prevent unschooling from working.
When people leave the list I don't get notifications. I don't care. I don't take roll, I don't get notifications when people join. I could, but I've had it turned off since the list was created. The only reason for someone to write to me and say "I'm leaving your list now" is to insult me on the way out.
I do have perseverance. :-)
It doesn't mean I appreciate childish behavior.
Parents of children who are considering unschooling should find as many resources as they want. This might be one of them. I've never asked ANYone to make this their only resource.
Those with mother issues might want to attempt to avoid projecting them onto me, and deal with them in an adult fashion, for the good of their children and marriages/partnerships.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
Sandra
k
Well it *is* interesting. A lot of people think the way my mom does
and they are the younger moms in the area that I live in who do that.
Most people in my mom's own generation who I know, even though they
live in this region, think very differently from my mom. It's funny
that someone sees a person's age and equates it with a particular
generation's way of thinking. You and I and probably everyone on this
list thinks differently about something. That's life. It's nothing
new, that's for sure. Or it isn't new, to go by my experience.
~Katherine
and they are the younger moms in the area that I live in who do that.
Most people in my mom's own generation who I know, even though they
live in this region, think very differently from my mom. It's funny
that someone sees a person's age and equates it with a particular
generation's way of thinking. You and I and probably everyone on this
list thinks differently about something. That's life. It's nothing
new, that's for sure. Or it isn't new, to go by my experience.
~Katherine
Claire
<<<<<<<<I love many aspects of unschooling, especially the respectful and partnership approaches to raising children, but I could do without all the prescriptive "shoulds" and "musts."<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I think the above reveals a lot more about the writer's mindset than about the nature of unschooling or this list. Those who have certain fixed ideas about parenting could very possibly be challenged by the suggestions made here. Those who are here to learn, however personally confronting that process may be, have the benefit of multiple viewpoints and years of collective experience. Lucky us!
Claire
I think the above reveals a lot more about the writer's mindset than about the nature of unschooling or this list. Those who have certain fixed ideas about parenting could very possibly be challenged by the suggestions made here. Those who are here to learn, however personally confronting that process may be, have the benefit of multiple viewpoints and years of collective experience. Lucky us!
Claire
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 24, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
monolithic, traditional thinking, in with flexibility and diversity!
The problem is that without a clear idea where you're headed, it's
hard to figure out how to get there. And when connecting with people
headed in vague but different directions, how can they help each other
get anywhere?
There are many ideas that "work". There are many "good" ideas out
there. There are many ideas that feel "right". But not all of them are
compatible. Some of them stop the others in their tracks.
Unless someone has a clear idea of what "works" means *to them* and
what "good" means *to them*, they're going to be like a bumper car
with power but no steering, racing around encountering "good" ideas
that bounce them off in "good" but chaotic directions.
Unless someone examines the baggage they've picked up throughout life,
what feels "right" may only be what's making the baggage feel more
comfortable and it can unintentionally damage their relationship with
their kids or their spouse.
Figuring out what "works", is "good" and is "right" isn't as easy as
it sounds! We all *think* we know what those words mean. We've lived
with them our whole lives, using them effortlessly. But most people
never stop to think clearly about the things they want, or how well
those things work together, and where and how they'll interfere and
which take priority when they do and what effect that will have on the
other things they want.
The purpose of the list isn't to define what works or what's good or
what's right for other people. The purpose of the list is to define
them clearly for the list, so the direction we're helping people head
is clear.
No one needs to adopt all the ideas talked about here for their
families. But members are asked, for the peace of the others on the
list, to not interfere with the clear direction the list is focused
on. Members are free -- encouraged! -- to find other resources so they
can mix and match to define what "works" and "good" and "right" are
for them.
Joyce
> Luckily I think my generation is breaking free of this and is moreI bet every generation since the 60's believes that. Out with the
> accepting and
> more loving and grateful for diversity.
monolithic, traditional thinking, in with flexibility and diversity!
The problem is that without a clear idea where you're headed, it's
hard to figure out how to get there. And when connecting with people
headed in vague but different directions, how can they help each other
get anywhere?
There are many ideas that "work". There are many "good" ideas out
there. There are many ideas that feel "right". But not all of them are
compatible. Some of them stop the others in their tracks.
Unless someone has a clear idea of what "works" means *to them* and
what "good" means *to them*, they're going to be like a bumper car
with power but no steering, racing around encountering "good" ideas
that bounce them off in "good" but chaotic directions.
Unless someone examines the baggage they've picked up throughout life,
what feels "right" may only be what's making the baggage feel more
comfortable and it can unintentionally damage their relationship with
their kids or their spouse.
Figuring out what "works", is "good" and is "right" isn't as easy as
it sounds! We all *think* we know what those words mean. We've lived
with them our whole lives, using them effortlessly. But most people
never stop to think clearly about the things they want, or how well
those things work together, and where and how they'll interfere and
which take priority when they do and what effect that will have on the
other things they want.
The purpose of the list isn't to define what works or what's good or
what's right for other people. The purpose of the list is to define
them clearly for the list, so the direction we're helping people head
is clear.
No one needs to adopt all the ideas talked about here for their
families. But members are asked, for the peace of the others on the
list, to not interfere with the clear direction the list is focused
on. Members are free -- encouraged! -- to find other resources so they
can mix and match to define what "works" and "good" and "right" are
for them.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-The purpose of the list isn't to define what works or what's good or
what's right for other people. The purpose of the list is to define
them clearly for the list, so the direction we're helping people head
is clear.-=-
The reason anything can be defined clearly here, or called "good" or "right" within the discussion, is that "the point"--meaning the direction, the focus, the purpose--of the discussion is (as flatly stated) is unschooling.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
It's not for anything else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what's right for other people. The purpose of the list is to define
them clearly for the list, so the direction we're helping people head
is clear.-=-
The reason anything can be defined clearly here, or called "good" or "right" within the discussion, is that "the point"--meaning the direction, the focus, the purpose--of the discussion is (as flatly stated) is unschooling.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
It's not for anything else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shirarocklin
I don't feel limited by being on this list at all. Anymore. But... there was a time, in the beginning, when I was somewhat confused about that. I was caught up in what the 'right' thing to do in any situation was... and so it felt sometimes like none of the answers to questions fit our family, but... it must be right... so how to make it fit? And then, if I objected to the advice, saying it wouldn't work, there was the line, "there isn't any unschooling police coming to check on you," or something like that. And I didn't understand that for a while... I thought that meant that if I didn't want to follow your advice, then who cares, I can do wrong in my own home if I want to. That didn't sit well.
Now I understand. The principles are important. The actual ideas on the list for how to solve a situation are really just jumping points for all of us in our real lives. The unschooling police aren't going to come and check whether we used the suggested ideas, or jumped into new ideas on our own, or ignored it all because we're not actually ready to change that aspect of our lives yet, or just plain don't want to. The list is for ideas. Real life is for living. The two don't always match up.
But, when I learned that... the ideas suddenly seemed so much more interesting to read, unloaded of my emotional baggage. And I felt much more comfortable filing ideas away in my head for 'later when I'm ready to make changes like that,' without feeling like I'm doing wrong in the present.
Shira
Now I understand. The principles are important. The actual ideas on the list for how to solve a situation are really just jumping points for all of us in our real lives. The unschooling police aren't going to come and check whether we used the suggested ideas, or jumped into new ideas on our own, or ignored it all because we're not actually ready to change that aspect of our lives yet, or just plain don't want to. The list is for ideas. Real life is for living. The two don't always match up.
But, when I learned that... the ideas suddenly seemed so much more interesting to read, unloaded of my emotional baggage. And I felt much more comfortable filing ideas away in my head for 'later when I'm ready to make changes like that,' without feeling like I'm doing wrong in the present.
Shira
ChrisE
When I saw the words "unschooling police" I giggled a little because I love an oxymoron.
Though I have been chastised by people who are weirdly (to me at least)rigid in their unschooling. My children use math curriculum because they like math and wanted to learn algebra. They are not required to do so, and I help them when they ask, but I don't "police" their progress. I ask them how they are doing, is it still fun and interesting? I was told that any online math program that provided scored quizzes could not possibly be part of an unschool "program".
I suppose that since I have been at this for a few (10) years, it didn't bother me. I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, so maybe we aren't unschoolers...
As I have gotten older I have let go of many labels. Labels are useful when you need them, usually for some institutional purpose. When I was a social worker, labels, in the form of diagnoses, placements, prescriptions, and so on, were useful so that all of us "experts" could communicate effectively.
In the daily life of our family, we communicate with words and actions and so labels are not important. Maybe one or both of my children would have been diagnosed ADHD or Learning disabled, or whatever. But since we had the wonderful luxury of letting them make their way through life, learning as they became ready, labels were not needed. I saw my job as protecting them from experiencing the anxiety that so many of the adults in their lives felt about how and what they were learning. Occasionally, I had to rely on my inner b*tch, and set limits on adults that would try to quiz or test my kids in ways that they were uncomfortable with. That is, when my children didn't set those limits in a reasonably respectful way.
So, my son did learn to read, and my daughter learned how to pronounce her th's and neither ever felt that they were defective or "unable", which is what labels will often do to the person on whose head the label falls.
Chris
Though I have been chastised by people who are weirdly (to me at least)rigid in their unschooling. My children use math curriculum because they like math and wanted to learn algebra. They are not required to do so, and I help them when they ask, but I don't "police" their progress. I ask them how they are doing, is it still fun and interesting? I was told that any online math program that provided scored quizzes could not possibly be part of an unschool "program".
I suppose that since I have been at this for a few (10) years, it didn't bother me. I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, so maybe we aren't unschoolers...
As I have gotten older I have let go of many labels. Labels are useful when you need them, usually for some institutional purpose. When I was a social worker, labels, in the form of diagnoses, placements, prescriptions, and so on, were useful so that all of us "experts" could communicate effectively.
In the daily life of our family, we communicate with words and actions and so labels are not important. Maybe one or both of my children would have been diagnosed ADHD or Learning disabled, or whatever. But since we had the wonderful luxury of letting them make their way through life, learning as they became ready, labels were not needed. I saw my job as protecting them from experiencing the anxiety that so many of the adults in their lives felt about how and what they were learning. Occasionally, I had to rely on my inner b*tch, and set limits on adults that would try to quiz or test my kids in ways that they were uncomfortable with. That is, when my children didn't set those limits in a reasonably respectful way.
So, my son did learn to read, and my daughter learned how to pronounce her th's and neither ever felt that they were defective or "unable", which is what labels will often do to the person on whose head the label falls.
Chris
--- In [email protected], "shirarocklin" <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
***** The unschooling police aren't going to come and check whether we used the suggested ideas,
> Shira*******
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:47 PM, ChrisE wrote:
or any schoolish way of learning something.
It is unhelpful to those trying to understand unschooling to suggest
that a schoolish program can be part of unschooling.
Which often leaves the impression that no unschooling child should
ever use a schoolish way of learning. Which is why the list focuses so
much on helping people understand how and why unschooling works and
what its purpose is so they can see the answer for themselves.
What are the child's goals in using the program? Are there no other
ways to get there?
Why is the child drawn to the program rather than other ways? Do they
lack confidence in other ways of learning? Why? Because they've been
in school? Because their friends and society have planted seeds that
you need schoolish ways to learn?
Because the mom isn't confident of learning through interests? So
she's more likely to come up with schoolish approaches? Or she
couldn't respond to the child's concerns? Because the mom doesn't see
the advantages of learning through interests? Because the mom doesn't
see the disadvantages of schoolish learning? Because the mom hasn't
examined the disadvantages of learning through interests to see if
they're really true or would be of impact to her or her child's goals?
Because the mom hasn't examined the advantages of schoolish learning
to see if that end goal is really of value?
Those aren't questions for Chris to answer here. Her answers, anyone's
answers, are unlikely to help someone understand how kids learn
better. *Asking* the questions and digging deep for answers and to
find fears and roadblocks and other baggage is what's important.
It's important to ask whether the advantages of learning through
interests is your goal.
Or is learning through interests another method of acquiring a set of
knowledge? For many who first hear about unschooling, it sounds like a
fine way to learn history or science where it feels that knowledge
that doesn't go beyond someone's interest won't hurt them in life. But
math, reading and writing are Foundational so it's knowledge that
can't (seemingly) be left up to chance.
For those who feel the knowledge is more important than the advantages
of learning through pursuing interests, I think it's clearer -- in
terms of growing an understanding of unschooling -- to call that
approach eclectic.
What is far more helpful for understanding unschooling is talking
about how people learn. What are the advantages of learning through
pursuing interests? Why schoolish approaches can feel more satisfying
than unschoolish approaches.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was told that any online math program that provided scoredIt is untrue to say no unschooling child has ever used a math program
> quizzes could not possibly be part of an unschool "program".
or any schoolish way of learning something.
It is unhelpful to those trying to understand unschooling to suggest
that a schoolish program can be part of unschooling.
Which often leaves the impression that no unschooling child should
ever use a schoolish way of learning. Which is why the list focuses so
much on helping people understand how and why unschooling works and
what its purpose is so they can see the answer for themselves.
What are the child's goals in using the program? Are there no other
ways to get there?
Why is the child drawn to the program rather than other ways? Do they
lack confidence in other ways of learning? Why? Because they've been
in school? Because their friends and society have planted seeds that
you need schoolish ways to learn?
Because the mom isn't confident of learning through interests? So
she's more likely to come up with schoolish approaches? Or she
couldn't respond to the child's concerns? Because the mom doesn't see
the advantages of learning through interests? Because the mom doesn't
see the disadvantages of schoolish learning? Because the mom hasn't
examined the disadvantages of learning through interests to see if
they're really true or would be of impact to her or her child's goals?
Because the mom hasn't examined the advantages of schoolish learning
to see if that end goal is really of value?
Those aren't questions for Chris to answer here. Her answers, anyone's
answers, are unlikely to help someone understand how kids learn
better. *Asking* the questions and digging deep for answers and to
find fears and roadblocks and other baggage is what's important.
It's important to ask whether the advantages of learning through
interests is your goal.
Or is learning through interests another method of acquiring a set of
knowledge? For many who first hear about unschooling, it sounds like a
fine way to learn history or science where it feels that knowledge
that doesn't go beyond someone's interest won't hurt them in life. But
math, reading and writing are Foundational so it's knowledge that
can't (seemingly) be left up to chance.
For those who feel the knowledge is more important than the advantages
of learning through pursuing interests, I think it's clearer -- in
terms of growing an understanding of unschooling -- to call that
approach eclectic.
What is far more helpful for understanding unschooling is talking
about how people learn. What are the advantages of learning through
pursuing interests? Why schoolish approaches can feel more satisfying
than unschoolish approaches.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:47 PM, ChrisE wrote:
A label is like a box. It contains a collection of ideas. And an
understanding of what those ideas mean to the person using the label.
People use the labels as though we all had the same collection of
ideas or as though their collection passes on with the label.
Obviously that's not true.
Unschooling is a label. It's easier to say "unschooling" than all the
ideas and understanding it contains ;-) But not everyone defines
unschooling the same way. And it's not a matter of people having
slightly different understandings, but people using the word for very
different concepts. And then there can be struggles over who is right
and over ownership of the word.
The list doesn't define what's in the box labeled "unschooling" for
anyone else. (Though it would sure make life a lot easier if we
could!) But it does define unschooling for the list so it's clear what
we're talking about. And it's why we talk a lot about what's in the
box as it's used on the list.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, soWhich doesn't really clarify anything!
> maybe we aren't unschoolers...
A label is like a box. It contains a collection of ideas. And an
understanding of what those ideas mean to the person using the label.
People use the labels as though we all had the same collection of
ideas or as though their collection passes on with the label.
Obviously that's not true.
Unschooling is a label. It's easier to say "unschooling" than all the
ideas and understanding it contains ;-) But not everyone defines
unschooling the same way. And it's not a matter of people having
slightly different understandings, but people using the word for very
different concepts. And then there can be struggles over who is right
and over ownership of the word.
The list doesn't define what's in the box labeled "unschooling" for
anyone else. (Though it would sure make life a lot easier if we
could!) But it does define unschooling for the list so it's clear what
we're talking about. And it's why we talk a lot about what's in the
box as it's used on the list.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Good parts first:
-=-So, my son did learn to read, and my daughter learned how to pronounce her th's and neither ever felt that they were defective or "unable", which is what labels will often do to the person on whose head the label falls. -=-
Just being away from school's assembly line and requirements and timetable can make a huge difference in a person's life.
-=-When I saw the words "unschooling police" I giggled a little because I love an oxymoron.
-=-Though I have been chastised by people who are weirdly (to me at least)rigid in their unschooling. My children use math curriculum because they like math and wanted to learn algebra. They are not required to do so, and I help them when they ask, but I don't "police" their progress. I ask them how they are doing, is it still fun and interesting? I was told that any online math program that provided scored quizzes could not possibly be part of an unschool "program". -=-
"Unschooling program" is an oxymoron, from the point of view of someone who has unschooled for many years. "My children use math curriculum because they like math" suggests they (and the mom) might not know what math would look like outside of a math curriculum.
I'm going to speak as the owner of this list, to the ideas of "policing" progress. I do safeguard the integrity of this discussion, by trying to bring suggestions back toward unschooling. People can get mainstream, school-style advice all OVER the place, for free or for money. There are few places where consistent, quality unschooling advice is available. (There are moderators who help me keep this list strong, too, out of the goodness of their hearts, and their desire to help others understand unschooling.)
If someone wants to put that in a negative light, they could say I "police" the list. It could be said that I "police" my yard, because I pick up trash and pay attention to whether things are safe and secure out there. It could be said that I "police" my words, because I try to be careful not to say things I wouldn't want quoted more widely.
If someone said this in a more positive light, it would be that I take care of this list, and my yard, that I am careful with my words. I do care for this list. I care about providing unschooling information for people, freely. When I started, there was Growing Without Schooling magazine, every other month, and other than buying Teach Your Own by John Holt (when the first edition was still available), there was very little help. I was lucky enough to know two other unschooling families. That might have been a world record for in-person help in 1991. :-) I had been involved in La-Leche -League-style attachment parenting since 1986 already.
Others jump into unschooling from a school platform, and some don't jump far. If some kids are in school and some aren't, school is always right there, casting a giant shadow over home life.
I only clean and guard my own yard. I don't go to other people's yards and check on the security of their tools or wheelbarrow.
The "unschooling police" are not going door to door. The "door" to this list is watched, though. Within this discussion, it would be counterproductive to call just any old "program" unschooling. Before there were such separate discussions for different kinds of homeschooling, unschoolers endured people saying they were unschoolers because they let their kids do their lessons on the couch or in the yard if they wanted to, and didn't limit them to the kitchen table. There ARE some things that are clearly not unschooling.
-=-I suppose that since I have been at this for a few (10) years, it didn't bother me. I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, so maybe we aren't unschoolers... -=-
If they've been using a math curriculum for ten years, you probably shouldn't imagine that's what unschooling math could be like in its purest, most real-world form. If someone thinks that school math books and math workbooks ARE "math," they're as limited as if they were in school. If the parents haven't found the patterns in the daily world from which children can discover mathematical thinking in the total absence of numerals, a great opportunity was lost in that family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-So, my son did learn to read, and my daughter learned how to pronounce her th's and neither ever felt that they were defective or "unable", which is what labels will often do to the person on whose head the label falls. -=-
Just being away from school's assembly line and requirements and timetable can make a huge difference in a person's life.
-=-When I saw the words "unschooling police" I giggled a little because I love an oxymoron.
-=-Though I have been chastised by people who are weirdly (to me at least)rigid in their unschooling. My children use math curriculum because they like math and wanted to learn algebra. They are not required to do so, and I help them when they ask, but I don't "police" their progress. I ask them how they are doing, is it still fun and interesting? I was told that any online math program that provided scored quizzes could not possibly be part of an unschool "program". -=-
"Unschooling program" is an oxymoron, from the point of view of someone who has unschooled for many years. "My children use math curriculum because they like math" suggests they (and the mom) might not know what math would look like outside of a math curriculum.
I'm going to speak as the owner of this list, to the ideas of "policing" progress. I do safeguard the integrity of this discussion, by trying to bring suggestions back toward unschooling. People can get mainstream, school-style advice all OVER the place, for free or for money. There are few places where consistent, quality unschooling advice is available. (There are moderators who help me keep this list strong, too, out of the goodness of their hearts, and their desire to help others understand unschooling.)
If someone wants to put that in a negative light, they could say I "police" the list. It could be said that I "police" my yard, because I pick up trash and pay attention to whether things are safe and secure out there. It could be said that I "police" my words, because I try to be careful not to say things I wouldn't want quoted more widely.
If someone said this in a more positive light, it would be that I take care of this list, and my yard, that I am careful with my words. I do care for this list. I care about providing unschooling information for people, freely. When I started, there was Growing Without Schooling magazine, every other month, and other than buying Teach Your Own by John Holt (when the first edition was still available), there was very little help. I was lucky enough to know two other unschooling families. That might have been a world record for in-person help in 1991. :-) I had been involved in La-Leche -League-style attachment parenting since 1986 already.
Others jump into unschooling from a school platform, and some don't jump far. If some kids are in school and some aren't, school is always right there, casting a giant shadow over home life.
I only clean and guard my own yard. I don't go to other people's yards and check on the security of their tools or wheelbarrow.
The "unschooling police" are not going door to door. The "door" to this list is watched, though. Within this discussion, it would be counterproductive to call just any old "program" unschooling. Before there were such separate discussions for different kinds of homeschooling, unschoolers endured people saying they were unschoolers because they let their kids do their lessons on the couch or in the yard if they wanted to, and didn't limit them to the kitchen table. There ARE some things that are clearly not unschooling.
-=-I suppose that since I have been at this for a few (10) years, it didn't bother me. I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, so maybe we aren't unschoolers... -=-
If they've been using a math curriculum for ten years, you probably shouldn't imagine that's what unschooling math could be like in its purest, most real-world form. If someone thinks that school math books and math workbooks ARE "math," they're as limited as if they were in school. If the parents haven't found the patterns in the daily world from which children can discover mathematical thinking in the total absence of numerals, a great opportunity was lost in that family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
waste my breath and only really (honestly) wanted to short-circuit the
conversation. The truth is that I really do not care what other people call
what my family does. I love the respectful exchange of ideas that could be
debate. But this person apparently had no interest in exchanging ideas,
except to show me where I was "WRONG". I have reached a place in life where
I no longer have a need to try to give someone the benefit of my reason.
Also, to the person that I was dealing with, I am not an unschooler because
my children were using a schooly device to explore and learn algebra.
I do not mind confrontation when it is possible to have meaningful debate,
but again, meaningful debate is premised of the idea that the parties have
some modicum of respect for each other.
>Given the way the person was speaking, I realized that it was useless to
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:47 PM, ChrisE wrote:
>
> ***> I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful, so
> > maybe we aren't unschoolers...
>
> Which doesn't really clarify anything!****
>
waste my breath and only really (honestly) wanted to short-circuit the
conversation. The truth is that I really do not care what other people call
what my family does. I love the respectful exchange of ideas that could be
debate. But this person apparently had no interest in exchanging ideas,
except to show me where I was "WRONG". I have reached a place in life where
I no longer have a need to try to give someone the benefit of my reason.
Also, to the person that I was dealing with, I am not an unschooler because
my children were using a schooly device to explore and learn algebra.
I do not mind confrontation when it is possible to have meaningful debate,
but again, meaningful debate is premised of the idea that the parties have
some modicum of respect for each other.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Chris
>
>
>
>
chris ester
FYI, my children have never been to school for anything but to pick up a
schooled friend. We haven't used a math curriculum for ten years. We
really do not use curriculum for much but reference. Like encyclopedias,
but with more focused content and that not everyday. We are bibliophiles
and have bunches of books about bunches of subjects and thousands of stories
from lots of genres. WE are a booky family. My husband and I have advanced
degrees in vastly different studies (from each other) so yeah, we are
booky. We have books about math because I can't necessarily answer their
questions. My kids have known how to research with the internet, books, the
library, people, etc... for many many years now. My son and daughter love
playing with math concepts and wanted an easy to use place to go to to look
this up and read about it and hear about it. My son particularly is
interested in theoretical physics and wanted to know more formal math so
that he could understand the stuff he is reading about quantum mechanics.
He tells me about what he is reading about, thank goodness that I am not
required to understand everything he learns... I get a lot of it though.
:)
So if you call quantum mechanics a real world application, then he is using
it to get to real world application. I am not really capable of taking him
where he wants to go, his father can help, but his dad can only be here a
limited time, given that we haven't found a way to get paid just for
existing or to live without money.
I am not a real mathy person. I am good at calculation and we had lots of
fun playing calculation games out in the world with groceries and all of the
day to day math. My husband has degrees in math and math related fields. I
found number theory and calculus interesting once it got theoretical but not
so much so that I sit around and read about it.
I know algebra and can help them right now, but frankly, both of my children
enjoy math much more than I do and they asked for a program that would tell
them about schooly math. I am not talented enough to figure out real world
applications for algebra or calculus. My 12 and 14 year old children are
fine with that and so they use the online program to get their questions
answered. It covers a vast array of math subjects, like calculus and
trigonometry, etc. They find it interesting like I find psychological
research interesting (which they do not). My daughter has sat for hours
working on her own Fibonacci sequence. No one suggested it, she just did
it. Just like her art, she draws for hours. I bought a 'curriculum'
because it was a cheap, easy way to get a bunch of post card sized art to
look at. My son likes to read or listen to a vast array of subjects and
talks about some of them. I love to watch them discover all of these things
that I may never have known
I have to admit to trying to get him to record some of his stories in some
way. His stories are amazing and I want (perhaps selfishly) to be able to
save them. He records some of them and asked if I would help him type or
write some. I agreed to give whatever help he wanted and we have made an
appointment to sit down and figure out how to best do it. I think he may
want to learn to write. I will know when he tells me or asks me. BTW we
make appointments because we have a busy schedule and have to plan.
Our homeschooling has been a lot of them saying "Hey mom, can we....?" and
me finding a way to do it. Or me sayng, "Hey guys, how'd you like to ...."
Field trips, projects, library trips, book stores, museums.... etc.
I cannot imagine how we would have done "school", either at home or in an
institution. The closest we come is dance lessons (my daughter is taking
some 7 hours a week) and Kung fu (my son primarily, my daughter in the
summers).
We are required by our state law to cover certain subjects, and now that
they are older, my kids and I come up with ways that we can all enjoy to
meet these requirements. No 'programs', just schedules and fun (aka 'want
to's') and the occasional "have to" (aka chores).
Now that they know their manners and how to avoid most dangers, my job seems
to be facilitator, chauffeur, accounts payable clerk, listener, enterprise
management.... and person who shows cooking techniques. I think we are so
blessed to have this life.
Chris
schooled friend. We haven't used a math curriculum for ten years. We
really do not use curriculum for much but reference. Like encyclopedias,
but with more focused content and that not everyday. We are bibliophiles
and have bunches of books about bunches of subjects and thousands of stories
from lots of genres. WE are a booky family. My husband and I have advanced
degrees in vastly different studies (from each other) so yeah, we are
booky. We have books about math because I can't necessarily answer their
questions. My kids have known how to research with the internet, books, the
library, people, etc... for many many years now. My son and daughter love
playing with math concepts and wanted an easy to use place to go to to look
this up and read about it and hear about it. My son particularly is
interested in theoretical physics and wanted to know more formal math so
that he could understand the stuff he is reading about quantum mechanics.
He tells me about what he is reading about, thank goodness that I am not
required to understand everything he learns... I get a lot of it though.
:)
So if you call quantum mechanics a real world application, then he is using
it to get to real world application. I am not really capable of taking him
where he wants to go, his father can help, but his dad can only be here a
limited time, given that we haven't found a way to get paid just for
existing or to live without money.
I am not a real mathy person. I am good at calculation and we had lots of
fun playing calculation games out in the world with groceries and all of the
day to day math. My husband has degrees in math and math related fields. I
found number theory and calculus interesting once it got theoretical but not
so much so that I sit around and read about it.
I know algebra and can help them right now, but frankly, both of my children
enjoy math much more than I do and they asked for a program that would tell
them about schooly math. I am not talented enough to figure out real world
applications for algebra or calculus. My 12 and 14 year old children are
fine with that and so they use the online program to get their questions
answered. It covers a vast array of math subjects, like calculus and
trigonometry, etc. They find it interesting like I find psychological
research interesting (which they do not). My daughter has sat for hours
working on her own Fibonacci sequence. No one suggested it, she just did
it. Just like her art, she draws for hours. I bought a 'curriculum'
because it was a cheap, easy way to get a bunch of post card sized art to
look at. My son likes to read or listen to a vast array of subjects and
talks about some of them. I love to watch them discover all of these things
that I may never have known
I have to admit to trying to get him to record some of his stories in some
way. His stories are amazing and I want (perhaps selfishly) to be able to
save them. He records some of them and asked if I would help him type or
write some. I agreed to give whatever help he wanted and we have made an
appointment to sit down and figure out how to best do it. I think he may
want to learn to write. I will know when he tells me or asks me. BTW we
make appointments because we have a busy schedule and have to plan.
Our homeschooling has been a lot of them saying "Hey mom, can we....?" and
me finding a way to do it. Or me sayng, "Hey guys, how'd you like to ...."
Field trips, projects, library trips, book stores, museums.... etc.
I cannot imagine how we would have done "school", either at home or in an
institution. The closest we come is dance lessons (my daughter is taking
some 7 hours a week) and Kung fu (my son primarily, my daughter in the
summers).
We are required by our state law to cover certain subjects, and now that
they are older, my kids and I come up with ways that we can all enjoy to
meet these requirements. No 'programs', just schedules and fun (aka 'want
to's') and the occasional "have to" (aka chores).
Now that they know their manners and how to avoid most dangers, my job seems
to be facilitator, chauffeur, accounts payable clerk, listener, enterprise
management.... and person who shows cooking techniques. I think we are so
blessed to have this life.
Chris
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> Good parts first:
> -=-So, my son did learn to read, and my daughter learned how to pronounce
> her th's and neither ever felt that they were defective or "unable", which
> is what labels will often do to the person on whose head the label falls.
> -=-
>
> Just being away from school's assembly line and requirements and timetable
> can make a huge difference in a person's life.
>
> -=-When I saw the words "unschooling police" I giggled a little because I
> love an oxymoron.
>
> -=-Though I have been chastised by people who are weirdly (to me at
> least)rigid in their unschooling. My children use math curriculum because
> they like math and wanted to learn algebra. They are not required to do so,
> and I help them when they ask, but I don't "police" their progress. I ask
> them how they are doing, is it still fun and interesting? I was told that
> any online math program that provided scored quizzes could not possibly be
> part of an unschool "program". -=-
>
> "Unschooling program" is an oxymoron, from the point of view of someone who
> has unschooled for many years. "My children use math curriculum because they
> like math" suggests they (and the mom) might not know what math would look
> like outside of a math curriculum.
>
> I'm going to speak as the owner of this list, to the ideas of "policing"
> progress. I do safeguard the integrity of this discussion, by trying to
> bring suggestions back toward unschooling. People can get mainstream,
> school-style advice all OVER the place, for free or for money. There are few
> places where consistent, quality unschooling advice is available. (There are
> moderators who help me keep this list strong, too, out of the goodness of
> their hearts, and their desire to help others understand unschooling.)
>
> If someone wants to put that in a negative light, they could say I "police"
> the list. It could be said that I "police" my yard, because I pick up trash
> and pay attention to whether things are safe and secure out there. It could
> be said that I "police" my words, because I try to be careful not to say
> things I wouldn't want quoted more widely.
>
> If someone said this in a more positive light, it would be that I take care
> of this list, and my yard, that I am careful with my words. I do care for
> this list. I care about providing unschooling information for people,
> freely. When I started, there was Growing Without Schooling magazine, every
> other month, and other than buying Teach Your Own by John Holt (when the
> first edition was still available), there was very little help. I was lucky
> enough to know two other unschooling families. That might have been a world
> record for in-person help in 1991. :-) I had been involved in La-Leche
> -League-style attachment parenting since 1986 already.
>
> Others jump into unschooling from a school platform, and some don't jump
> far. If some kids are in school and some aren't, school is always right
> there, casting a giant shadow over home life.
>
> I only clean and guard my own yard. I don't go to other people's yards and
> check on the security of their tools or wheelbarrow.
>
> The "unschooling police" are not going door to door. The "door" to this
> list is watched, though. Within this discussion, it would be
> counterproductive to call just any old "program" unschooling. Before there
> were such separate discussions for different kinds of homeschooling,
> unschoolers endured people saying they were unschoolers because they let
> their kids do their lessons on the couch or in the yard if they wanted to,
> and didn't limit them to the kitchen table. There ARE some things that are
> clearly not unschooling.
>
> -=-I suppose that since I have been at this for a few (10) years, it didn't
> bother me. I just replied that labels are only useful when they are useful,
> so maybe we aren't unschoolers... -=-
>
> If they've been using a math curriculum for ten years, you probably
> shouldn't imagine that's what unschooling math could be like in its purest,
> most real-world form. If someone thinks that school math books and math
> workbooks ARE "math," they're as limited as if they were in school. If the
> parents haven't found the patterns in the daily world from which children
> can discover mathematical thinking in the total absence of numerals, a great
> opportunity was lost in that family.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Fun math, off the top of my head,:
plan then build a gingerbread house, and eat:)
use money,
bake or divide for consumption yummy cakes, or pies,
measuring juice,weather,speed,distance,time,
t.v. converters( with access to many cable stations)help with large
numbers,
fly kites, air planes
lego
juice carrots(volume,differences,sharing)
build doll-houses or,birdhouses
Warning :math,occasionally, hitches a ride with science or food or spending
cash or,well, I could keep going...but you see where it could go
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plan then build a gingerbread house, and eat:)
use money,
bake or divide for consumption yummy cakes, or pies,
measuring juice,weather,speed,distance,time,
t.v. converters( with access to many cable stations)help with large
numbers,
fly kites, air planes
lego
juice carrots(volume,differences,sharing)
build doll-houses or,birdhouses
Warning :math,occasionally, hitches a ride with science or food or spending
cash or,well, I could keep going...but you see where it could go
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-FYI, my children have never been to school for anything but to pick up a
schooled friend. We haven't used a math curriculum for ten years. We
really do not use curriculum for much but reference. -=-
Okay, but the question (in the subject line) is whether you (any reader) felt limited by being on this list.
Limiting what is discussed or "approved" within and ON a list doesn't limit what anyone does at home.
No unschooling police will call.
What is recommended here on the list, though, will be examined.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
-=-FYI, my children ...-=-
We don't need that information, so it's not really an "fyi" situation.
Once the ideas are out there, they're to be discussed for the benefit of any/many of the hundreds-to-thousands of readers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
schooled friend. We haven't used a math curriculum for ten years. We
really do not use curriculum for much but reference. -=-
Okay, but the question (in the subject line) is whether you (any reader) felt limited by being on this list.
Limiting what is discussed or "approved" within and ON a list doesn't limit what anyone does at home.
No unschooling police will call.
What is recommended here on the list, though, will be examined.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
-=-FYI, my children ...-=-
We don't need that information, so it's not really an "fyi" situation.
Once the ideas are out there, they're to be discussed for the benefit of any/many of the hundreds-to-thousands of readers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have reached a place in life where
I no longer have a need to try to give someone the benefit of my reason.-=-
You seem to be suggesting that those of us who are helping others understand unschooling aren't as evolved as you are. :-)
I don't know that I "have a need" to "try to" give people the benefit of my reason. I am willing to do that. And I go beyond trying. I just got this in e-mail about two minutes ago:
Subject: So glad we met
An interesting thing happened to me. I received what you were saying with my heart and mind wide open and because of who you are, what you believe and what you are doing I felt empowered and therefore able to express myself to you and to be vulnerable in the group. As a result of our discussion I felt my own intelligence in a way I never had all my life. Because of your stories and talks about unschooling I was able to see my own, unique area of intelligence and to honor the directions I have gone on my own when I followed what motivated me after being "dumbed down" by school and doing what I thought others wanted me to do. This all adds up to a newly blossomed intuition in the area of my children. I now feel more confident and can see the way I can assist my children to find and do what they are drawn to. I am also more comfortable with people who seem very intelligent and who may have scared me out of some of my beliefs. I am intelligent in a different way and it is just as valuable. So, I needed very much to express my gratitude to you.... You are doing a great thing!
If that had never happened, I might think the need was more in me than others, but there were these, too:
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
and more.
-=-I love the respectful exchange of ideas that could be
debate. But this person apparently had no interest in exchanging ideas,
except to show me where I was "WRONG"-=-
And you joined this list for what purpose?
Not respect for the ideas, it doesn't seem.
-=-I do not mind confrontation when it is possible to have meaningful debate,
but again, meaningful debate is premised of the idea that the parties have
some modicum of respect for each other.-=-
This list is not for confrontation OR debate. The purpose is stated (at length, and as clearly as a group of us could make it) here and in the live links there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I no longer have a need to try to give someone the benefit of my reason.-=-
You seem to be suggesting that those of us who are helping others understand unschooling aren't as evolved as you are. :-)
I don't know that I "have a need" to "try to" give people the benefit of my reason. I am willing to do that. And I go beyond trying. I just got this in e-mail about two minutes ago:
Subject: So glad we met
An interesting thing happened to me. I received what you were saying with my heart and mind wide open and because of who you are, what you believe and what you are doing I felt empowered and therefore able to express myself to you and to be vulnerable in the group. As a result of our discussion I felt my own intelligence in a way I never had all my life. Because of your stories and talks about unschooling I was able to see my own, unique area of intelligence and to honor the directions I have gone on my own when I followed what motivated me after being "dumbed down" by school and doing what I thought others wanted me to do. This all adds up to a newly blossomed intuition in the area of my children. I now feel more confident and can see the way I can assist my children to find and do what they are drawn to. I am also more comfortable with people who seem very intelligent and who may have scared me out of some of my beliefs. I am intelligent in a different way and it is just as valuable. So, I needed very much to express my gratitude to you.... You are doing a great thing!
If that had never happened, I might think the need was more in me than others, but there were these, too:
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
and more.
-=-I love the respectful exchange of ideas that could be
debate. But this person apparently had no interest in exchanging ideas,
except to show me where I was "WRONG"-=-
And you joined this list for what purpose?
Not respect for the ideas, it doesn't seem.
-=-I do not mind confrontation when it is possible to have meaningful debate,
but again, meaningful debate is premised of the idea that the parties have
some modicum of respect for each other.-=-
This list is not for confrontation OR debate. The purpose is stated (at length, and as clearly as a group of us could make it) here and in the live links there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Warning :math,occasionally, hitches a ride with science or food or spending
cash or,well, I could keep going...but you see where it could go***
One of my most favorite math/science/art/everything else in the world connection
is that documentary about origami... http://www.greenfusefilms.com/
It's such a beautiful film! I've watched it several times and it never gets
old. There is a kid in that movie, that I have since found out was unschooled.
I don't know him, but I saw his name pop up recently in a grown unschooler
discussion.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cash or,well, I could keep going...but you see where it could go***
One of my most favorite math/science/art/everything else in the world connection
is that documentary about origami... http://www.greenfusefilms.com/
It's such a beautiful film! I've watched it several times and it never gets
old. There is a kid in that movie, that I have since found out was unschooled.
I don't know him, but I saw his name pop up recently in a grown unschooler
discussion.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]