Expensive Games
Dan Vilter
Howdy!
My son has become immersed in table top role playing games, Mordheim, 40K,
and now Battlefleet Gothic. It is very exciting to see his interest take off
in something that wasn't described by us, his parents. He has a good time
playing the games at the game parlor. Great so far. My concern is that he
spends all of his money on these games. These games are played with very
expensive models. My instincts are to let him figure out the value of the
games and the money. The instant he gets any money it is spent on the games.
The other night he was telling me how he could start building his next army
for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'm living
with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.
Does anyone else have this kind of experience? How did it turn out? I held
out till age ten for reading to click. When and how does a balance with
money come about? I am listening respectfully. And I do trust him to
eventually figure out that there is more to the world than these games.
So... we do celebrate Christmas. Up till now he has been spending his own
money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feeding this
money pit? What is learned by our excluding something that he has immense
interest in? It is just so darned expensive.
-Dan Vilter
My son has become immersed in table top role playing games, Mordheim, 40K,
and now Battlefleet Gothic. It is very exciting to see his interest take off
in something that wasn't described by us, his parents. He has a good time
playing the games at the game parlor. Great so far. My concern is that he
spends all of his money on these games. These games are played with very
expensive models. My instincts are to let him figure out the value of the
games and the money. The instant he gets any money it is spent on the games.
The other night he was telling me how he could start building his next army
for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'm living
with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.
Does anyone else have this kind of experience? How did it turn out? I held
out till age ten for reading to click. When and how does a balance with
money come about? I am listening respectfully. And I do trust him to
eventually figure out that there is more to the world than these games.
So... we do celebrate Christmas. Up till now he has been spending his own
money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feeding this
money pit? What is learned by our excluding something that he has immense
interest in? It is just so darned expensive.
-Dan Vilter
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/25/01 2:41:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, dvilter@... writes:
The other night he was telling me how he could start building his next army
for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'm living
with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.
Marty started to do Warhammer 40K, which is a figure-based game. He couldn't get into the intricacies of painting and all that. They're playing another figure game, MageKnight (with which I know Dan's son is also familiar/involved), and it's medium expensive. But my kids DO card games. Warlord and Legend of Five Rings are current faves.
They will refer to "cardboard crack," which is Magic (cards). And the reference is to the addictive nature of the activity.
-=-. Up till now he has been spending his own money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feeding this money pit?-=-
Well...
Maybe he could get a job at the shop and get a 30% discount. (I mention it because that's how it went with Kirby, but that means we got a 30% discount on the new Risk boardgame, with the side-gameboard of the moon. Woohoo! (for Keith, my husband, for Christmas!)
Maybe you could order Christmas stuff through the shop where Kirby works! (Drugs, still, but discount drugs.)
This is no answer; this is just chitchat and commiseration.
Sandra
[email protected]
Hi :-) *new person alert*
I have never regretted supporting my kids' interests, inexpensive, expensive,
or otherwise. Something takes place in the passionate pursuit which doesn't
necessarily show up right away.
There are gives and gets financially - - figure out what you can
realistically allot, and then brainstorm ways with him to earn the rest of
the money he needs. If he's truly passionate about obtaining the figures,
he'll find a way.
Sharon, whose children fortunately love Dungeons and Dragons, most of which
takes place in their heads.
I have never regretted supporting my kids' interests, inexpensive, expensive,
or otherwise. Something takes place in the passionate pursuit which doesn't
necessarily show up right away.
There are gives and gets financially - - figure out what you can
realistically allot, and then brainstorm ways with him to earn the rest of
the money he needs. If he's truly passionate about obtaining the figures,
he'll find a way.
Sharon, whose children fortunately love Dungeons and Dragons, most of which
takes place in their heads.
[email protected]
On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:39:12 -0800 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:
Starlux and Britains at a thrift store and have been selling them on
ebay, having no idea what they were for... are you or your son familiar
with those brands?
And if he's interested in any of the ones I have left, he could basically
name his price... he might want to try shopping on ebay, too, there are a
lot of them for sale there.
games like that yet, but her mindset on playmobil is sort of like this,
and I've really caught the fever and I'm always scouting for good deals
on the sets we (oops...;-) she needs. Of course, I'm a real bargain
hunter, so the thrill for me is finding the stuff cheap, whereas she's
fine with spending lots of money, she just wants to do good "setups".
I think of it as having a passion for something, and I value that highly.
People without passions are boring. ;-) I'm the same way, still, if that
helps. I learned to knit a couple of months ago and I've spent over $200.
I've almost finished a sweater now...
occasionally try to talk her out of something that I think is a rip-off.
Doesn't usually work, though. She spent over $50 on an American Girls
fifties outfit for Halloween that I thought was so not worth it, but she
really wanted it...
I've always found that one learns an amazing amount when diving into a
new area of interest. I'm sure the games themselves are full of strategy
and rules and all, but there's also all the other info, about the pieces
and the people there and just everything, a whole world to learn about!
Dar
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>These games are played with very expensive models.This is totally off the subject, but I got a bunch of little figures by
Starlux and Britains at a thrift store and have been selling them on
ebay, having no idea what they were for... are you or your son familiar
with those brands?
And if he's interested in any of the ones I have left, he could basically
name his price... he might want to try shopping on ebay, too, there are a
lot of them for sale there.
> The other night he was telling me how he could start building his nextarmy
> for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'mSee, this just sounds so cool to me. I dunno. My daughter doesn't play
> living with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.
games like that yet, but her mindset on playmobil is sort of like this,
and I've really caught the fever and I'm always scouting for good deals
on the sets we (oops...;-) she needs. Of course, I'm a real bargain
hunter, so the thrill for me is finding the stuff cheap, whereas she's
fine with spending lots of money, she just wants to do good "setups".
I think of it as having a passion for something, and I value that highly.
People without passions are boring. ;-) I'm the same way, still, if that
helps. I learned to knit a couple of months ago and I've spent over $200.
I've almost finished a sweater now...
> So... we do celebrate Christmas. Up till now he has been spending hisown
> money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feedingthis
> money pit? What is learned by our excluding something that he hasI've always figured that her money is her money, although I admit that I
> immense interest in? It is just so darned expensive.
occasionally try to talk her out of something that I think is a rip-off.
Doesn't usually work, though. She spent over $50 on an American Girls
fifties outfit for Halloween that I thought was so not worth it, but she
really wanted it...
I've always found that one learns an amazing amount when diving into a
new area of interest. I'm sure the games themselves are full of strategy
and rules and all, but there's also all the other info, about the pieces
and the people there and just everything, a whole world to learn about!
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Jocelyn Vilter
Maybe you could order Christmas stuff through the shop where Kirby works! (Drugs, still, but discount drugs.)
This is no answer; this is just chitchat and commiseration.
I'm the enabling mom of the expensive game junkie. I *did* just spend on the order of a couple of hundred dollars at his game store, since the pusher (I mean owner) is having a 25% off sale this weekend.
An example for those who are not familiar with these particular games - it can easily cost $60.00 for a starter set of these pieces. That's enough to set up one kind of army but seemingly never the kind my son really wants. So then we end up having to buy the smaller adjunct boxed sets or blister cards. Yikes - it is never ending. You get a big fat manual when you buy the set, but then they change the rules sometimes so you have to buy what they call "codexes" to keep up with the changes.
Is it a strange coincidence that the owner reminds me of the comic book store guy from The Simpsons? I thought his sort of cranky personality might be enough to make Matthew give up the games, but instead, he's learning how to be around someone like that - a good lesson, I suppose. He spends enough time there that he *could* work there, but it's a fairly new store, and he only has one other employee - which could go a long way towards explaining why he's so cranky.
We've talked about how virtually everyone who plays these games (at this store, anyway) is an ADULT, with a JOB, but so far that doesn't seem to have dimmed his enthusiasm. Yesterday I talked about how when you pick an expensive hobby, like say, restoring a vintage car, you can't always just go out and buy the parts exactly when you need them - that sometimes you have to wait until your next paycheck. Granted, he's not paying rent yet or buying groceries but he has an allowance and it has to stretch the month. He was worried that when he started getting an allowance, that we wouldn't buy him anything any more. I assured him that I reserved the right to buy him stuff whenever I felt like it (which is still pretty often). I just can't make myself buy him this particular gaming stuff though - it seems that this is his thing and that he ought to finance it. It sounds a bit on re-reading this that we nag him about his interest, but we don't. We just talk about it when it comes up (which is all the time<g>).
I DO know that he is getting a lot out of playing these games and hanging around the store - I'm mostly just blowing off steam.
Jocelyn
[email protected]
Well! These games sound totally cool. Where have I been?
My son spends all his money on Godzilla collectibles. We've just decided
it is the way of things.
Usually we all only have a limited amount of spending money and when it's
gone, that's it. He sometimes budgets his money but if the thing he
wants becomes available he'd spend any amount to get his hands on it. I
guess I haven't worried about it. ( Until now! Thanks a lot! )
It is spending money, right? He's not blowing your house payment or
anything?
That's funny about the cardboard crack. We refer to the Godzilla stuff
as monster crack!
Deb L
My son spends all his money on Godzilla collectibles. We've just decided
it is the way of things.
Usually we all only have a limited amount of spending money and when it's
gone, that's it. He sometimes budgets his money but if the thing he
wants becomes available he'd spend any amount to get his hands on it. I
guess I haven't worried about it. ( Until now! Thanks a lot! )
It is spending money, right? He's not blowing your house payment or
anything?
That's funny about the cardboard crack. We refer to the Godzilla stuff
as monster crack!
Deb L
Jocelyn Vilter
It is his spending money, and no, we aren't in danger of losing the house
yet. I guess what bugs me so much about this stuff is that it seems so
overpriced and that they keep you coming back for more with all the
add-on's.
Also, right now for example, he's just dying to have one of these books (I
never thought I'd have a problem buying him a book).
#1 - he's out of allowance money until the 1st of Dec.
1A - he's already "in debt" to us for half of his allowance because he just
had to have another army.
#2 - It's a $25.00 paperback.
#3 - I dunno - it just bugs me.
#4 - the war thing bothers me, but I realize that that is my problem to get
over or just stifle.
http://www.games-workshop.com/
In defense of the store, I have to say that they don't charge to participate
in tournaments like Wizards of the Coast does. When he was into Magic, it
was $5.00 a week to play there on Friday nights.
grumpy Jocelyn
yet. I guess what bugs me so much about this stuff is that it seems so
overpriced and that they keep you coming back for more with all the
add-on's.
Also, right now for example, he's just dying to have one of these books (I
never thought I'd have a problem buying him a book).
#1 - he's out of allowance money until the 1st of Dec.
1A - he's already "in debt" to us for half of his allowance because he just
had to have another army.
#2 - It's a $25.00 paperback.
#3 - I dunno - it just bugs me.
#4 - the war thing bothers me, but I realize that that is my problem to get
over or just stifle.
> I guess I haven't worried about it. ( Until now! Thanks a lot! )Yer welcome! Here, just in case you want to look...
http://www.games-workshop.com/
In defense of the store, I have to say that they don't charge to participate
in tournaments like Wizards of the Coast does. When he was into Magic, it
was $5.00 a week to play there on Friday nights.
grumpy Jocelyn
> From: ddzimlew@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:12:53 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Expensive Games
>
> It is spending money, right? He's not blowing your house payment or
> anything?
[email protected]
What if he was playing chess? (Play along with me here...) :)
Maybe chess wouldn't be *quite* as expensive, but it's easy for it to get
pricey. Tournament fees, books, a nicely weighted set, a nice board, a travel
set, a clock, more books, chess camp, another clock, classes, more books, a
tutor, more books... :)
People think chess players are really smart and are impressed by kids who are
serious about the game. It's a very interesting phenomenon. If I tell people
my kids spent all day playing games they're told they're lucky they didn't
have to work all day. If I tell people my kids spent all day playing chess
they're oohed and ahed over and congratulated for working so hard. It's
weird. The truth is that chess is not necessarily the most valuable game they
play, and good chess players are not on average any smarter than the rest of
us in other areas. Perception is everything.
The bad thing about your kid playing role playing games instead of chess is
that you'll have to defend it more to busybodies (including the nag inside
your head <g>) even though it's just as valuable in developing concentration,
logic, memory, all that good stuff. The good thing about your kid playing
role playing games instead of chess is that you probably won't find yourself
pushing and prodding him to develop his talents at the game in spite of your
best intentions. :)
The most sensible parents of serious young chess players I know have settled
into supporting the interest as much as they feel able while helping the kids
find ways to earn money to support their habit.
Deborah in IL
Maybe chess wouldn't be *quite* as expensive, but it's easy for it to get
pricey. Tournament fees, books, a nicely weighted set, a nice board, a travel
set, a clock, more books, chess camp, another clock, classes, more books, a
tutor, more books... :)
People think chess players are really smart and are impressed by kids who are
serious about the game. It's a very interesting phenomenon. If I tell people
my kids spent all day playing games they're told they're lucky they didn't
have to work all day. If I tell people my kids spent all day playing chess
they're oohed and ahed over and congratulated for working so hard. It's
weird. The truth is that chess is not necessarily the most valuable game they
play, and good chess players are not on average any smarter than the rest of
us in other areas. Perception is everything.
The bad thing about your kid playing role playing games instead of chess is
that you'll have to defend it more to busybodies (including the nag inside
your head <g>) even though it's just as valuable in developing concentration,
logic, memory, all that good stuff. The good thing about your kid playing
role playing games instead of chess is that you probably won't find yourself
pushing and prodding him to develop his talents at the game in spite of your
best intentions. :)
The most sensible parents of serious young chess players I know have settled
into supporting the interest as much as they feel able while helping the kids
find ways to earn money to support their habit.
Deborah in IL
[email protected]
> I guess what bugs me so much about this stuff is that it seemsWhile I don't have experience with these games, I can certainly join in
> so
> overpriced and that they keep you coming back for more with all the
> add-on's.
the grumbling about stuff being overpriced. Our most recent experience
with this is the new Lego Bionicles. Too new to be turning up in second
hand stores or yard sales, and packaged in such a way that you end up
spending a small fortune to get a good set for a little builder. So you
have my sympathy. A lot of good that does you. <g>
Thanks for the web address. I think.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/25/2001 10:14:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, DACunefare@... writes:
National Home Education Network
Pam SorooshianWhat if he was playing chess? (Play along with me here...) :)
Uh, Jocelyn and Dan? He could be passionate about, let's just say, uh, HORSES!!!! (Like someone in my family <G>)
When my oldest daughter got interested in clothes -- we had a period of about 6 months where I couldn't stand to take her places with me -- this realization came upon me suddenly one day and I realized that it was because she was constantly asking to buy things. We'd not had that problem before -- but suddenly she wanted a ring or earrings or a sweater or shoes or socks or a hair thing or whatever.... and I was constantly in the position of having to either hand her the money or say no -- and I'd never really felt like that before. It was obvious to me that it was very arbitrary on my part - some days to say, "Sure, buy it," and other days to say, "No, not today." I couldn't possibly buy everything she wanted - she seemed to have suddenly developed a bottomless desire for this type of stuff. But I was having to make decisions FOR HER all the time and that was what was making me miserable. How on earth could I know whether she'd rather have the ring she wanted today or the hair thing she was going to see in another shop the next day. And each of the things she wanted was pretty minimal in cost - it was NEVER true that any one of them would put us in the poor house.
So the obvious solution was to work out a reasonable allowance and then let her make all her OWN decisions. She'd had a "spending money" allowance already - but this involved clothing and I'd always paid for her clothes for her. So we created a "clothing allowance" (we worked together on figuring out what we could afford and what was reasonable) and made it clear that ALL clothing and accessories were now her choice - she could spend that much money any way she wanted. So it was a HUGE relief to me to not have to feel that pressure while were in a store - not have to make split second decisions about whether to say yes or no to something she wanted. It changed our relationship WAY for the better. And I was totally able to let her spend it as she wanted - and, yep, she did have to learn the hard way. But, guess what? She eventually learned to shop at thrift stores and to save her money to spend on things she REALLY wanted more than the trinkets she'd been asking me for all the time.
One last thing. In economics there is a concept of diminishing marginal utility --- this says that when you consume more and more of something you get less and less additional benefit. So if you eat one candy bar, its wonderful. But if someone gives you a second one it might still be good, but not as wonderful as the first one that you just ate. And a third might stll be good, but not as great as the second was. I think my daughter began to enjoy her purchases a LOT more once she had a clear budget limit -- each thing she bought became more highly valued. Partly that was because she was putting so much more thought into what she wanted. But partly that was just because she was, really, getting a lot less stuff so that the marginal value was higher - since she had to choose to buy the higher-valued items and then stop buying. Yep. We were spending 1/4 of what we'd been spending before and she was HAPPIER with the purchases.
Since he has an allowance and is spending it all on the gaming stuff, what's the problem? He wants more? So - if his allowance is too small (you could afford to spend more and you do, so he asks), increase it to a reasonable amount - considering what you REALLY can afford to let him spend. If that is really it - then don't feel bad if he can't get everything he wants when he wants it.
And then you can give nice gifts and the kids REALLY enjoy them.
National Home Education Network
[email protected]
I'm so happy to be on this list! Already I'm fascinated by the
conversation!
I have a twelve year old son, Julian, who is really into games,
particularly Dungeons and Dragons, which we actually play as a family
quite often. (I played in college a bit.) This morning he spent
hours with his books, a notebook, and a calculator developing a D&D
militia, where he figured out how many people and horses and other
equipment he wanted, bought them a boat to bring them across water,
figured out how many boats he would need (went to dictionary to
determine how many pounds in a ton, since I didn't remember), figured
out how much horses weighed (online, because I don't have a clue),
etc. This wasn't even for a particular game...it was just play! At
one point he laughed and said, "Hey, mama! I'm doing math!"
Yep, among other things.
Kathryn Baptista
conversation!
I have a twelve year old son, Julian, who is really into games,
particularly Dungeons and Dragons, which we actually play as a family
quite often. (I played in college a bit.) This morning he spent
hours with his books, a notebook, and a calculator developing a D&D
militia, where he figured out how many people and horses and other
equipment he wanted, bought them a boat to bring them across water,
figured out how many boats he would need (went to dictionary to
determine how many pounds in a ton, since I didn't remember), figured
out how much horses weighed (online, because I don't have a clue),
etc. This wasn't even for a particular game...it was just play! At
one point he laughed and said, "Hey, mama! I'm doing math!"
Yep, among other things.
Kathryn Baptista
groundhoggirl
Now that's beautiful!! and that's what unschooling is all about.
Before my husband and I were married and we had our boys, he used to
play D & D for days at a time with a whole bunch of other
intellectuals. I was a bit intimidated by that very nice group of
people and didn't participate. But I did enjoy listening to the games
while I did my needlepoint. Now, today, as a family, we too create
role-playing stories which can last for a couple of hours. The boys
love it. It's a lot of fun.
Mimi
Before my husband and I were married and we had our boys, he used to
play D & D for days at a time with a whole bunch of other
intellectuals. I was a bit intimidated by that very nice group of
people and didn't participate. But I did enjoy listening to the games
while I did my needlepoint. Now, today, as a family, we too create
role-playing stories which can last for a couple of hours. The boys
love it. It's a lot of fun.
Mimi
On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 01:02 PM, KathrynJB@... wrote:
> I'm so happy to be on this list! Already I'm fascinated by the
> conversation!
>
> I have a twelve year old son, Julian, who is really into games,
> particularly Dungeons and Dragons, which we actually play as a family
> quite often. (I played in college a bit.) This morning he spent
> hours with his books, a notebook, and a calculator developing a D&D
> militia, where he figured out how many people and horses and other
> equipment he wanted, bought them a boat to bring them across water,
> figured out how many boats he would need (went to dictionary to
> determine how many pounds in a ton, since I didn't remember), figured
> out how much horses weighed (online, because I don't have a clue),
> etc. This wasn't even for a particular game...it was just play! At
> one point he laughed and said, "Hey, mama! I'm doing math!"
>
> Yep, among other things.
>
> Kathryn Baptista
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
This is way out there, but I feel like people can never get enough of
(be satisfied by) something that isn't really satisfying. Diving into
fantasy games is exciting, but hollow in the end because
you have nothing real to show for it. It all is social I agree, but
nothing lasting is accomplished. There's always one more set of
figures, books, dice, or scenarios to buy.
What if gamers took their money, brains, time and friends, and spent it
building a house for Habitat for Humanity? Planting a garden in some
public place? Improving the lives of others
somehow in a lasting and tangible way. Wouldn't that ultimately be more
satisfying than the pursuit of the next pot metal battle piece?
Volunteer work could be a hobby too. It can be satisfying to build
something that will last, and you can look back on the time and say you
really made a difference.
They won't do that because it's not easy? Because we don't do it
ourselves? Because why?
Not trying to attack any specific people, just thinking out loud, and
wondering how so many people can have so much money to spend on
something so opposite of real.
What do they get from the games and pursuit of material goods, that
they can't get from real action?
It's just a puzzle to me.
One more thing: I am not suggesting that we are the owners of our kids,
or that gamers are inferior in any way. I just wish that energy, time,
and money, were used for the power it could
really have. The power of positive lasting change in the real world.
may your life be joyous
Makana
(be satisfied by) something that isn't really satisfying. Diving into
fantasy games is exciting, but hollow in the end because
you have nothing real to show for it. It all is social I agree, but
nothing lasting is accomplished. There's always one more set of
figures, books, dice, or scenarios to buy.
What if gamers took their money, brains, time and friends, and spent it
building a house for Habitat for Humanity? Planting a garden in some
public place? Improving the lives of others
somehow in a lasting and tangible way. Wouldn't that ultimately be more
satisfying than the pursuit of the next pot metal battle piece?
Volunteer work could be a hobby too. It can be satisfying to build
something that will last, and you can look back on the time and say you
really made a difference.
They won't do that because it's not easy? Because we don't do it
ourselves? Because why?
Not trying to attack any specific people, just thinking out loud, and
wondering how so many people can have so much money to spend on
something so opposite of real.
What do they get from the games and pursuit of material goods, that
they can't get from real action?
It's just a puzzle to me.
One more thing: I am not suggesting that we are the owners of our kids,
or that gamers are inferior in any way. I just wish that energy, time,
and money, were used for the power it could
really have. The power of positive lasting change in the real world.
may your life be joyous
Makana
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Jocelyn Vilter <JVilter@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe you could order Christmas stuff through the shop where Kirby works!
> (Drugs, still, but discount drugs.)
> This is no answer; this is just chitchat and commiseration.
>
> I'm the enabling mom of the expensive game junkie. I *did* just spend on
> the order of a couple of hundred dollars at his game store, since the pusher
> (I mean owner) is having a 25% off sale this weekend.
>
> An example for those who are not familiar with these particular games - it
> can easily cost $60.00 for a starter set of these pieces. That's enough to
> set up one kind of army but seemingly never the kind my son really wants.
> So then we end up having to buy the smaller adjunct boxed sets or blister
> cards. Yikes - it is never ending. You get a big fat manual when you buy
> the set, but then they change the rules sometimes so you have to buy what
> they call "codexes" to keep up with the changes.
>
> Is it a strange coincidence that the owner reminds me of the comic book
> store guy from The Simpsons? I thought his sort of cranky personality
> might be enough to make Matthew give up the games, but instead, he's
> learning how to be around someone like that - a good lesson, I suppose. He
> spends enough time there that he *could* work there, but it's a fairly new
> store, and he only has one other employee - which could go a long way
> towards explaining why he's so cranky.
>
> We've talked about how virtually everyone who plays these games (at this
> store, anyway) is an ADULT, with a JOB, but so far that doesn't seem to have
> dimmed his enthusiasm. Yesterday I talked about how when you pick an
> expensive hobby, like say, restoring a vintage car, you can't always just go
> out and buy the parts exactly when you need them - that sometimes you have
> to wait until your next paycheck. Granted, he's not paying rent yet or
> buying groceries but he has an allowance and it has to stretch the month.
> He was worried that when he started getting an allowance, that we wouldn't
> buy him anything any more. I assured him that I reserved the right to buy
> him stuff whenever I felt like it (which is still pretty often). I just
> can't make myself buy him this particular gaming stuff though - it seems
> that this is his thing and that he ought to finance it. It sounds a bit on
> re-reading this that we nag him about his interest, but we don't. We just
> talk about it when it comes up (which is all the time<g>).
>
> I DO know that he is getting a lot out of playing these games and hanging
> around the store - I'm mostly just blowing off steam.
>
> Jocelyn
Jocelyn Vilter
I did a google search on these Bionicles after you wrote this - I'd seen
them but never paid too much attention to them before. I read a little on
the Lego website about them - and yes, they do seem to fall into the
"collectable" category, unlike the usual sort of Lego. Lucky you. Welcome
to the club <eg>. I was interested to see another link for them to the
Crosswalk site - some moms had written in to say that they didn't approve,
that they fell into the Harry Potter family of toys that make them
uncomfortable. Reactions like that always catch me off guard.
Jocelyn
them but never paid too much attention to them before. I read a little on
the Lego website about them - and yes, they do seem to fall into the
"collectable" category, unlike the usual sort of Lego. Lucky you. Welcome
to the club <eg>. I was interested to see another link for them to the
Crosswalk site - some moms had written in to say that they didn't approve,
that they fell into the Harry Potter family of toys that make them
uncomfortable. Reactions like that always catch me off guard.
Jocelyn
>
> Our most recent experience
> with this is the new Lego Bionicles. Too new to be turning up in second
> hand stores or yard sales, and packaged in such a way that you end up
> spending a small fortune to get a good set for a little builder.
Jocelyn Vilter
You raise some interesting points here Deb... When you talk about busybodies
and having to defend his interests, I realized that there is really *no one*
like that in our lives! Are we too lucky or what? His grandparents don't
really get it, but they don't criticize either. Most of our friends are
other homeschooling families and they are all cool with it too.
I think I made it sound like this is the only kind of game play Matthew is
interested in, but he is constantly making up games on his own. He makes up
what he calls "voice based games" which require nothing more than some paper
for keeping track of statistics and points. He makes up games using those
really cheap army guys to play at the park with his friends. He'll play
almost any kind of board game at least once. When left to his own devices,
and with nothing else at hand, he makes sound effects to accompany what we
like to call his "rich inner life" <g>.
I'm just going to have to get over the idea that I know what's best for him
all the time. He obviously gets something really big out of these
particular games, and as long as he can support the habit, so be it.
Jocelyn
and having to defend his interests, I realized that there is really *no one*
like that in our lives! Are we too lucky or what? His grandparents don't
really get it, but they don't criticize either. Most of our friends are
other homeschooling families and they are all cool with it too.
I think I made it sound like this is the only kind of game play Matthew is
interested in, but he is constantly making up games on his own. He makes up
what he calls "voice based games" which require nothing more than some paper
for keeping track of statistics and points. He makes up games using those
really cheap army guys to play at the park with his friends. He'll play
almost any kind of board game at least once. When left to his own devices,
and with nothing else at hand, he makes sound effects to accompany what we
like to call his "rich inner life" <g>.
I'm just going to have to get over the idea that I know what's best for him
all the time. He obviously gets something really big out of these
particular games, and as long as he can support the habit, so be it.
Jocelyn
> From: DACunefare@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:12:44 EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Expensive Games
>
> What if he was playing chess? (Play along with me here...) :)
>
> Maybe chess wouldn't be *quite* as expensive, but it's easy for it to get
> pricey. Tournament fees, books, a nicely weighted set, a nice board, a travel
> set, a clock, more books, chess camp, another clock, classes, more books, a
> tutor, more books... :)
>
> People think chess players are really smart and are impressed by kids who are
> serious about the game. It's a very interesting phenomenon. If I tell people
> my kids spent all day playing games they're told they're lucky they didn't
> have to work all day. If I tell people my kids spent all day playing chess
> they're oohed and ahed over and congratulated for working so hard. It's
> weird. The truth is that chess is not necessarily the most valuable game they
> play, and good chess players are not on average any smarter than the rest of
> us in other areas. Perception is everything.
>
> The bad thing about your kid playing role playing games instead of chess is
> that you'll have to defend it more to busybodies (including the nag inside
> your head <g>) even though it's just as valuable in developing concentration,
> logic, memory, all that good stuff. The good thing about your kid playing
> role playing games instead of chess is that you probably won't find yourself
> pushing and prodding him to develop his talents at the game in spite of your
> best intentions. :)
>
> The most sensible parents of serious young chess players I know have settled
> into supporting the interest as much as they feel able while helping the kids
> find ways to earn money to support their habit.
>
> Deborah in IL
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Cindy
vegan4planet@... wrote:
to music, hiking in the woods, watching the sunset, etc.? By your
argument none of these activities have any value because nothing lasting
is accomplished.
I would argue that all of these including gaming can have value. The
value is just not physical.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>(snip)
> This is way out there, but I feel like people can never get enough of
> (be satisfied by) something that isn't really satisfying. Diving into
> fantasy games is exciting, but hollow in the end because
> you have nothing real to show for it. It all is social I agree, but
> nothing lasting is accomplished.
>Can't your argument against gaming be applied to reading books, listening
> One more thing: I am not suggesting that we are the owners of our kids,
> or that gamers are inferior in any way. I just wish that energy, time,
> and money, were used for the power it could
> really have. The power of positive lasting change in the real world.
>
to music, hiking in the woods, watching the sunset, etc.? By your
argument none of these activities have any value because nothing lasting
is accomplished.
I would argue that all of these including gaming can have value. The
value is just not physical.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
[email protected]
Hi Sandra and Cindy,
I'm sorry that I got myself off to a bad start. When I read my post
after it was on the list (and too late to fix anything) I really felt
like a air head. It came out all stupid somehow. I guess I was
thinking conflicting things, but not putting them down right. Sorry
about that. I'm so used to the face to face type of conversation.
I think all the things you guys mentioned are satisfying and have
lasting value because they connect ut to the real world around us.
Gaming can be a connection with friends that is valuable
too.
I was just upset (and that's just my own problem, not anybody else's)
about spending either tons of money, or money that I don't have, on
specialty things that some game designer said I
must have or I cannot play.
That is probably what was really bothering me. A friend of mine really
enjoys working with Habitat for Humanity, but that's only mentioned
because he is normally a computer recluse, but he
found alot of fun in the project.
I will try to be more careful about how and what I post. I really don't
want to stir up things with my half baked thoughts. I want to encourage
and contribute, not attack or criticize. Sorry
about that.
I really liked the ideas of making up your own games too. We do that
some. The best things in life are so very free.
peace be with you
Makana
I'm sorry that I got myself off to a bad start. When I read my post
after it was on the list (and too late to fix anything) I really felt
like a air head. It came out all stupid somehow. I guess I was
thinking conflicting things, but not putting them down right. Sorry
about that. I'm so used to the face to face type of conversation.
I think all the things you guys mentioned are satisfying and have
lasting value because they connect ut to the real world around us.
Gaming can be a connection with friends that is valuable
too.
I was just upset (and that's just my own problem, not anybody else's)
about spending either tons of money, or money that I don't have, on
specialty things that some game designer said I
must have or I cannot play.
That is probably what was really bothering me. A friend of mine really
enjoys working with Habitat for Humanity, but that's only mentioned
because he is normally a computer recluse, but he
found alot of fun in the project.
I will try to be more careful about how and what I post. I really don't
want to stir up things with my half baked thoughts. I want to encourage
and contribute, not attack or criticize. Sorry
about that.
I really liked the ideas of making up your own games too. We do that
some. The best things in life are so very free.
peace be with you
Makana
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Cindy <crma@i...> wrote:
>
>
> vegan4planet@y... wrote:
> >
> > This is way out there, but I feel like people can never get enough of
> > (be satisfied by) something that isn't really satisfying. Diving into
> > fantasy games is exciting, but hollow in the end because
> > you have nothing real to show for it. It all is social I agree, but
> > nothing lasting is accomplished.
> (snip)
> >
> > One more thing: I am not suggesting that we are the owners of our kids,
> > or that gamers are inferior in any way. I just wish that energy, time,
> > and money, were used for the power it could
> > really have. The power of positive lasting change in the real world.
> >
> Can't your argument against gaming be applied to reading books, listening
> to music, hiking in the woods, watching the sunset, etc.? By your
> argument none of these activities have any value because nothing lasting
> is accomplished.
>
> I would argue that all of these including gaming can have value. The
> value is just not physical.
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@i...
[email protected]
I started volunteering at an animal shelter four years ago. A few women
with good intentions got in way over their heads with a no kill shelter.
Before they knew it they had forty five dogs and dozens of cats. I went
there looking for my friend's cat who had vanished.
They had no money except what they could personally contribute.
I felt the only thing I could do was plunge in and help. It cost us a
small fortune. I spent more on that volunteer work than any of us have
ever spent in the pursuit of entertainment.
Not only the money but the commitment of time. My son was with me but
for months on end I never had any time with my husband.
New cats were coming in all the time. People would say, if we didn't
take the cats they'd be killed. So naturally we'd try to make room.
They would have to be quarantined, vaccinated, spayed. Each new cat cost
the shelter (us) a minimum of $100. (that's if they weren't sick ) and
that didn't include food and litter pan, etc.
One of the very committed volunteers left when her husband threatened
divorce over the issue.
Things are better at the shelter after an organized fund raising drive,
sponsors and several grants, but the point is, doing something *real* can
cost plenty. It can tear you up emotionally, threaten a happy home life
and put you in debt. Yes, it can be worth it, but it's not always the
beautiful picture of fulfillment painted by the TV commercials. I have
found a replacement and am taking some time off. Maybe forever. Where's
that chess board...
Deb L, also vegan, HI Makana!!
with good intentions got in way over their heads with a no kill shelter.
Before they knew it they had forty five dogs and dozens of cats. I went
there looking for my friend's cat who had vanished.
They had no money except what they could personally contribute.
I felt the only thing I could do was plunge in and help. It cost us a
small fortune. I spent more on that volunteer work than any of us have
ever spent in the pursuit of entertainment.
Not only the money but the commitment of time. My son was with me but
for months on end I never had any time with my husband.
New cats were coming in all the time. People would say, if we didn't
take the cats they'd be killed. So naturally we'd try to make room.
They would have to be quarantined, vaccinated, spayed. Each new cat cost
the shelter (us) a minimum of $100. (that's if they weren't sick ) and
that didn't include food and litter pan, etc.
One of the very committed volunteers left when her husband threatened
divorce over the issue.
Things are better at the shelter after an organized fund raising drive,
sponsors and several grants, but the point is, doing something *real* can
cost plenty. It can tear you up emotionally, threaten a happy home life
and put you in debt. Yes, it can be worth it, but it's not always the
beautiful picture of fulfillment painted by the TV commercials. I have
found a replacement and am taking some time off. Maybe forever. Where's
that chess board...
Deb L, also vegan, HI Makana!!
KT
>I think that's a pretty big assumption that folks who play games don't
>
>Volunteer work could be a hobby too. It can be satisfying to build
>something that will last, and you can look back on the time and say you
>really made a difference.
>
>They won't do that because it's not easy? Because we don't do it
>ourselves? Because why?
>
*also* do the sort of things you're talking about.
It's not either/or.
Tuck
Tami Labig-Duquette
Deb, aren't you in IL? I have some food and other animal things I could give
you. I am in IN.
Indiana Tami
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
~Ghandi
Networking for Central Indiana unschoolers :)
http://communities.msn.com/ChildLedLearninginIndiana
Children Leading the Way!
http://[email protected]
Fun site for your kids or even you :)
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny
----Original Message Follows----
From: ddzimlew@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] fantasy gaming vs real challenges (was Re:
Expensive Games)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 05:19:17 -0700
I started volunteering at an animal shelter four years ago. A few women
with good intentions got in way over their heads with a no kill shelter.
Before they knew it they had forty five dogs and dozens of cats. I went
there looking for my friend's cat who had vanished.
They had no money except what they could personally contribute.
I felt the only thing I could do was plunge in and help. It cost us a
small fortune. I spent more on that volunteer work than any of us have
ever spent in the pursuit of entertainment.
Not only the money but the commitment of time. My son was with me but
for months on end I never had any time with my husband.
New cats were coming in all the time. People would say, if we didn't
take the cats they'd be killed. So naturally we'd try to make room.
They would have to be quarantined, vaccinated, spayed. Each new cat cost
the shelter (us) a minimum of $100. (that's if they weren't sick ) and
that didn't include food and litter pan, etc.
One of the very committed volunteers left when her husband threatened
divorce over the issue.
Things are better at the shelter after an organized fund raising drive,
sponsors and several grants, but the point is, doing something *real* can
cost plenty. It can tear you up emotionally, threaten a happy home life
and put you in debt. Yes, it can be worth it, but it's not always the
beautiful picture of fulfillment painted by the TV commercials. I have
found a replacement and am taking some time off. Maybe forever. Where's
that chess board...
Deb L, also vegan, HI Makana!!
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
you. I am in IN.
Indiana Tami
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
~Ghandi
Networking for Central Indiana unschoolers :)
http://communities.msn.com/ChildLedLearninginIndiana
Children Leading the Way!
http://[email protected]
Fun site for your kids or even you :)
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny
----Original Message Follows----
From: ddzimlew@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] fantasy gaming vs real challenges (was Re:
Expensive Games)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 05:19:17 -0700
I started volunteering at an animal shelter four years ago. A few women
with good intentions got in way over their heads with a no kill shelter.
Before they knew it they had forty five dogs and dozens of cats. I went
there looking for my friend's cat who had vanished.
They had no money except what they could personally contribute.
I felt the only thing I could do was plunge in and help. It cost us a
small fortune. I spent more on that volunteer work than any of us have
ever spent in the pursuit of entertainment.
Not only the money but the commitment of time. My son was with me but
for months on end I never had any time with my husband.
New cats were coming in all the time. People would say, if we didn't
take the cats they'd be killed. So naturally we'd try to make room.
They would have to be quarantined, vaccinated, spayed. Each new cat cost
the shelter (us) a minimum of $100. (that's if they weren't sick ) and
that didn't include food and litter pan, etc.
One of the very committed volunteers left when her husband threatened
divorce over the issue.
Things are better at the shelter after an organized fund raising drive,
sponsors and several grants, but the point is, doing something *real* can
cost plenty. It can tear you up emotionally, threaten a happy home life
and put you in debt. Yes, it can be worth it, but it's not always the
beautiful picture of fulfillment painted by the TV commercials. I have
found a replacement and am taking some time off. Maybe forever. Where's
that chess board...
Deb L, also vegan, HI Makana!!
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Elizabeth Hill
vegan4planet@... wrote:
This is way out there, but I feel like people can never get enough of
(be satisfied by) something that isn't really satisfying. Diving into
fantasy games is exciting, but hollow in the end because
you have nothing real to show for it. It all is social I agree, but
nothing lasting is accomplished. There's always one more set of
figures, books, dice, or scenarios to buy.
Yeah. I'm a little bugged by the idea that the game gets better and you have more power and abilities when you buy more stuff. I realize that there is more than that to the game, but I'm concerned about the creation and manipulation of desire for power.Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
vegan4planet@... wrote:
Hi, Makana --
I think all the things you guys mentioned are satisfying and have
lasting value because they connect ut to the real world around us.
Gaming can be a connection with friends that is valuableThis is a valuable topic for me. (I need to work on it myself.) I do struggle with sometimes thinking memorizing all the exports of Brazil (say) is more valuable than memorizing the properties of all the Pokemon characters.
Sometimes I don't see the value in learning a lot about something that is fictional And yet, I spend a lot of time dwelling in fictional realms myself.
Wonder if my thoughts would be different if their was a major Pokemon "exit exam" that all 10 year olds had to take? Hmmmm. (Don't everybody shudder at once!)
Betsy
Cindy
vegan4planet@... wrote:
have considered some aspects of gaming.
I agree that a lot of money is spent on them - the console game market
alone is *huge*! In a more perfect world people wouldn't be going
hungry or without adequate shelter while others spent spent lots of
money on luxury items.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I had no problem with your post - just that I thought you might not
> Hi Sandra and Cindy,
>
> I'm sorry that I got myself off to a bad start. When I read my post
> after it was on the list (and too late to fix anything) I really felt
> like a air head. It came out all stupid somehow. I guess I was
> thinking conflicting things, but not putting them down right. Sorry
> about that. I'm so used to the face to face type of conversation.
>
have considered some aspects of gaming.
I agree that a lot of money is spent on them - the console game market
alone is *huge*! In a more perfect world people wouldn't be going
hungry or without adequate shelter while others spent spent lots of
money on luxury items.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
[email protected]
> Deb, aren't you in IL? I have some food and other animal things ITami,
> could give
> you. I am in IN.
> Indiana Tami
I'm sorry but you're thinking of the other Deb, ( Deborah) I'm in MT.
But I thank you for that offer Tami. I really thank you from the bottom
of my heart.
Deb L.