"Am I harming him?"
Michelle and Hub
Hi Folks,
This is only my second post, though I have been reading for more than a year. I could really use some guidance.
My little boy, Alex, age 4.5, spends one or two Saturdays a month with my Dad. After last week's visit, my Dad shared this story with me:
They were at Home Depot, first for a kids' build-it workshop, then to browse around the store. Alex spotted a hand shovel and told my Dad he wanted it. Not just any shovel, but one with an extendable handle. Alex has been very intrigued by things with extendable handles lately, and I have bought several such things when we've been out and he's asked to have them. I'm sure my Dad knew this, but I don't know if he remembered at the time they were at Depot. Alex asked for the shovel and my Dad told him No, because he already has shovels at home. Alex asked again and my Dad pulled the "If you have money in your pocket you can buy it" card. At this, apparently Alex started to cry because he did not have any money. He even thought to say something like, "You could loan me the money and I will pay you back." Still the answer was No.
Around the corner it was the same scene, only this time with snowblowers. My Dad clearly saw this as evidence that we (his parents) don't ever say no to him, because see how quickly it escalated from hand shovels to snowblowers.
My Dad noted to me that they were planning to go to another store after lunch and he was going to buy a new Lego set for them to work on that afternoon. I asked if he thought it could have helped to remind Alex of that plan. His answer was a curt, "No, I don't. I think at that moment he needed to learn that he doesn't always get whatever he wants."
Yikes.
He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told him anyway. I told him I plan my trips and my budget and my time around buying things he asks for as often as possible. When we have a tight budget or tight time I leave Alex home a lot so he doesn't have to hear No a lot. That got an accusation that has been thrown in my face before: "You tend to want to take the Easy Way Out." (He said that about babywearing, bed sharing, extended nursing, not giving him a sibling, not leaving him with more babysitters, not letting him sleep over, not sending him to school .)
I took a deep breath.
I asked was the shovel too expensive? No. I asked if Alex had been misbehaving in the store, thinking maybe my Dad was withholding the shovel as a punishment. No.
So, no good reason for not buying the shovel, except that my Dad decided Alex had enough shovels already, and this would be a good time for a lesson.
The kicker? When they got to Kmart after lunch and Alex picked a Lego set, he also spied a little train set and my Dad said "I thought that looked cool too so we got both."
I took another deep breath, and chose not to point out that HE got to decide that something looked cool so he bought it, but ALEX needed to be taught a lesson. I'm sure that would have gotten me the "When he goes to work and earns the money he can buy his own shovel" speech that I got some version of dozens of times growing up.
I did ask him to think about "Why couldn't you have said yes? What would have happened if you had bought the shovel?" He really believes it's about the Someday down the road when he asks his boss for a raise, he needs to be able to handle being told No.
Then he asked me "Do you think I harmed him?" I told him it wasn't a simple answer for me and I would think about it and let him know.
Here's what I think, without anyone's feedback:
I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.
In the long run, I think it's what happens most of the time that counts. Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. We are rethinking everything we've been taught. Quite honestly, my Dad resents how we're parenting (me mostly; he thinks my husband is just coming along for the ride) because it's mostly the opposite of how we were raised, which he takes as an affront to him. He feels defensive, and ends up speaking to me regularly with an attitude of "Thank goodness Alex has me, or else he'd never learn any of the important things in life from you two."
At this point, I'm reaching out to the Group for feedback:
1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?
2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"
Thanks,
Michelle
This is only my second post, though I have been reading for more than a year. I could really use some guidance.
My little boy, Alex, age 4.5, spends one or two Saturdays a month with my Dad. After last week's visit, my Dad shared this story with me:
They were at Home Depot, first for a kids' build-it workshop, then to browse around the store. Alex spotted a hand shovel and told my Dad he wanted it. Not just any shovel, but one with an extendable handle. Alex has been very intrigued by things with extendable handles lately, and I have bought several such things when we've been out and he's asked to have them. I'm sure my Dad knew this, but I don't know if he remembered at the time they were at Depot. Alex asked for the shovel and my Dad told him No, because he already has shovels at home. Alex asked again and my Dad pulled the "If you have money in your pocket you can buy it" card. At this, apparently Alex started to cry because he did not have any money. He even thought to say something like, "You could loan me the money and I will pay you back." Still the answer was No.
Around the corner it was the same scene, only this time with snowblowers. My Dad clearly saw this as evidence that we (his parents) don't ever say no to him, because see how quickly it escalated from hand shovels to snowblowers.
My Dad noted to me that they were planning to go to another store after lunch and he was going to buy a new Lego set for them to work on that afternoon. I asked if he thought it could have helped to remind Alex of that plan. His answer was a curt, "No, I don't. I think at that moment he needed to learn that he doesn't always get whatever he wants."
Yikes.
He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told him anyway. I told him I plan my trips and my budget and my time around buying things he asks for as often as possible. When we have a tight budget or tight time I leave Alex home a lot so he doesn't have to hear No a lot. That got an accusation that has been thrown in my face before: "You tend to want to take the Easy Way Out." (He said that about babywearing, bed sharing, extended nursing, not giving him a sibling, not leaving him with more babysitters, not letting him sleep over, not sending him to school .)
I took a deep breath.
I asked was the shovel too expensive? No. I asked if Alex had been misbehaving in the store, thinking maybe my Dad was withholding the shovel as a punishment. No.
So, no good reason for not buying the shovel, except that my Dad decided Alex had enough shovels already, and this would be a good time for a lesson.
The kicker? When they got to Kmart after lunch and Alex picked a Lego set, he also spied a little train set and my Dad said "I thought that looked cool too so we got both."
I took another deep breath, and chose not to point out that HE got to decide that something looked cool so he bought it, but ALEX needed to be taught a lesson. I'm sure that would have gotten me the "When he goes to work and earns the money he can buy his own shovel" speech that I got some version of dozens of times growing up.
I did ask him to think about "Why couldn't you have said yes? What would have happened if you had bought the shovel?" He really believes it's about the Someday down the road when he asks his boss for a raise, he needs to be able to handle being told No.
Then he asked me "Do you think I harmed him?" I told him it wasn't a simple answer for me and I would think about it and let him know.
Here's what I think, without anyone's feedback:
I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.
In the long run, I think it's what happens most of the time that counts. Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. We are rethinking everything we've been taught. Quite honestly, my Dad resents how we're parenting (me mostly; he thinks my husband is just coming along for the ride) because it's mostly the opposite of how we were raised, which he takes as an affront to him. He feels defensive, and ends up speaking to me regularly with an attitude of "Thank goodness Alex has me, or else he'd never learn any of the important things in life from you two."
At this point, I'm reaching out to the Group for feedback:
1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?
2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"
Thanks,
Michelle
Claire
--- In [email protected], "Michelle and Hub" <michelleandhub@...> wrote:
Now I don't want to over-dramatise, my daughter Ashlin has many toys and I consciously try to create a feeling of abundance in her life - abundant love, abundant attention and abundant resources for her to use. And I definitely use the strategies discussed here, such as not taking the kids when I do grocery shopping, making wishlists, and allowing time for them to look at things in the shop. But I am also much more willing now to say yes to the vast majority of their requests, because I see that those things have value for my kids.
However, in the situation you described, you did not mention the financial aspect of the arrangement you have with your dad when he looks after Alex. Do you provide your dad with spending money to cover purchases for Alex? Has your dad specifically offered to buy things for Alex during their time together? I would not expect my parents to make spontaneous purchases for my kids when they were out together. It's up to your dad how he chooses to spend his money. It definitely would have been relationship-building if he had chosen to get the shovel for Alex, but I wouldn't say Alex has been harmed.
In answering your dad's question, I would briefly outline your own approach to buying things for your son, but would make it clear that you don't expect that your dad will necessarily do the same. I would say that I don't think he harmed Alex, but maybe put forward that a child may place a much higher value on something than an adult would, and that it is very nurturing of the relationship to recognise that.
Claire
>I remember very clearly a time about 4 months ago when my then 5 year old daughter asked me to buy an $8 soft toy swan, and I said no because she already has so many soft toys. She was extremely upset, but at the time I felt like my decision was justified. THEN, there just so happened to be a thread on this list about saying yes more, and it pierced me like a knife - I harmed my relationship with my precious daughter by saying no to an inexpensive toy. Why on earth did I say no? It struck me that I will never again have the chance to say yes to buying that swan.
> 1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?
> 2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"
>
Now I don't want to over-dramatise, my daughter Ashlin has many toys and I consciously try to create a feeling of abundance in her life - abundant love, abundant attention and abundant resources for her to use. And I definitely use the strategies discussed here, such as not taking the kids when I do grocery shopping, making wishlists, and allowing time for them to look at things in the shop. But I am also much more willing now to say yes to the vast majority of their requests, because I see that those things have value for my kids.
However, in the situation you described, you did not mention the financial aspect of the arrangement you have with your dad when he looks after Alex. Do you provide your dad with spending money to cover purchases for Alex? Has your dad specifically offered to buy things for Alex during their time together? I would not expect my parents to make spontaneous purchases for my kids when they were out together. It's up to your dad how he chooses to spend his money. It definitely would have been relationship-building if he had chosen to get the shovel for Alex, but I wouldn't say Alex has been harmed.
In answering your dad's question, I would briefly outline your own approach to buying things for your son, but would make it clear that you don't expect that your dad will necessarily do the same. I would say that I don't think he harmed Alex, but maybe put forward that a child may place a much higher value on something than an adult would, and that it is very nurturing of the relationship to recognise that.
Claire
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Is there any reason you cannot go to Home Depot to purchase this shovel?
I think your dad is worried,and confused. He felt the shovel was less
appropriate than the Lego or train, perhaps,and that might seem arbitrary to
you given his generosity with the train. He is judging Alex's interests and
deciding which he will support. Eventually this could harm Alex if grandpa
supports his interests only sometimes. Does that seem to be an issue?
It sounds as if your son had fun.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think your dad is worried,and confused. He felt the shovel was less
appropriate than the Lego or train, perhaps,and that might seem arbitrary to
you given his generosity with the train. He is judging Alex's interests and
deciding which he will support. Eventually this could harm Alex if grandpa
supports his interests only sometimes. Does that seem to be an issue?
It sounds as if your son had fun.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
--- In [email protected], "Michelle and Hub" <michelleandhub@...> wrote:
If your father name-called, physically jerked him away from the shovel, etc., then yes, that would be harmful. But based on how you are describing it, I would think that if any harm were done in this situation it was to the relationship between Alex and his grandfather, not to Alex himself.
We have some experience with this. My in-laws have been opposed to just about every parenting decision we have ever made (and they are not shy about voicing it). I think usually it comes from a position of not understanding, or as you mentioned, feeling as if we are rejecting how my husband was raised by doing things so differently. It helps me to remember that so that I don't take their criticisms so personally.
We put an immediate stop to any name calling: my father-in-law has been known to say things like "don't be a baby!" and they would ever be allowed to spank our children. We support my son in his wish not to be kissed by anyone. But the issues over "control" and feeling like they need to "teach lessons" are murkier, but we've gotten better at dealing with them -- and even heading them off at the pass -- over the years, and they've gotten better about recognizing when they are stepping over a line.
When we are all together (us, and my SILs and their families) my father-in-law is prone to acting like the patriarch/decision maker no matter who the children are asking permission for something, and his initial reaction to almost everything is to try and control the situation.
The kids may ask, either directly of their own parents or sometimes to the room in general, "Can we go outside?" and my FIL will pop up with a quick "Not right now." We will speak up and say something like, "Oh is dinner almost ready?" and if the answer is no, then we step back in and say, "Well, then I think it' ok if you go out now, but we'll want you to come in and clean up before dinner." That way we are respecting our kids without totally disrespecting my FIL in the process or vice-versa.
My FIL would also never consider apologizing to a child even if he knows in his heart that he could have handled a situation better. If the kids get upset with the way they have been treated we talk to them about it. We speak up for them if they seem unable. We encourage them to stand up for themselves. But we also remind them that their grandfather is doing the best he knows how to do, and that he's not perfect, but that he loves them very much. We have shared with them that we think each generation tries to do things better than the generation before them, and they were amazed to find out that Pop-Pop was an adult before he knew that his own grandfather knew how to speak English because he would speak only German (a language he and hi cousins didn't speak) in the presence of children.
It doesn't keep them from getting their feelings hurt in the moment, but I think it helps them forgive him when he slips up. And I think it is an important relationship to nurture. (Were he abusive or truly toxic, I would not, so I'm not saying all familial relationships should be without question.)
We have also made it a point to try and have discussions with my FIL about different things that have come up over the years AWAY from the situation at hand. It's hard to do it without him feeling like he's being picked on, but we say things like, "Joseph usually responds pretty well to ..." instead of "Maybe you should have ..." it he is usually pretty receptive.
And we also remind them before they go over to their Grandparents' house what the house rules are. We help them remember while we are there. And try to provide them with activities they will enjoy without running afoul of the rules.
So, maybe the next time Alex is getting ready to go out with Grandpa you can remind him that it is not an expectation that Grandpa will buy him everything he wants, and you can encourage your Dad to see through Alex's eyes a bit and to maybe provide him time to explore the thing he wants in the store and ask questions about it and talk about how cool it is, etc., even if he's not going to be allowed to buy it and take it home.
-Angela in West Orange, NJ
> At this point, I'm reaching out to the Group for feedback:I agree with Claire in that I wouldn't expect my parent or in-law to purchase things every time my children asked. What I would expect would be that they treat my children with respect. And I definitely think it's possible to say no to buying something for a child without it being disrespectful.
>
> 1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?
> 2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"
>
If your father name-called, physically jerked him away from the shovel, etc., then yes, that would be harmful. But based on how you are describing it, I would think that if any harm were done in this situation it was to the relationship between Alex and his grandfather, not to Alex himself.
We have some experience with this. My in-laws have been opposed to just about every parenting decision we have ever made (and they are not shy about voicing it). I think usually it comes from a position of not understanding, or as you mentioned, feeling as if we are rejecting how my husband was raised by doing things so differently. It helps me to remember that so that I don't take their criticisms so personally.
We put an immediate stop to any name calling: my father-in-law has been known to say things like "don't be a baby!" and they would ever be allowed to spank our children. We support my son in his wish not to be kissed by anyone. But the issues over "control" and feeling like they need to "teach lessons" are murkier, but we've gotten better at dealing with them -- and even heading them off at the pass -- over the years, and they've gotten better about recognizing when they are stepping over a line.
When we are all together (us, and my SILs and their families) my father-in-law is prone to acting like the patriarch/decision maker no matter who the children are asking permission for something, and his initial reaction to almost everything is to try and control the situation.
The kids may ask, either directly of their own parents or sometimes to the room in general, "Can we go outside?" and my FIL will pop up with a quick "Not right now." We will speak up and say something like, "Oh is dinner almost ready?" and if the answer is no, then we step back in and say, "Well, then I think it' ok if you go out now, but we'll want you to come in and clean up before dinner." That way we are respecting our kids without totally disrespecting my FIL in the process or vice-versa.
My FIL would also never consider apologizing to a child even if he knows in his heart that he could have handled a situation better. If the kids get upset with the way they have been treated we talk to them about it. We speak up for them if they seem unable. We encourage them to stand up for themselves. But we also remind them that their grandfather is doing the best he knows how to do, and that he's not perfect, but that he loves them very much. We have shared with them that we think each generation tries to do things better than the generation before them, and they were amazed to find out that Pop-Pop was an adult before he knew that his own grandfather knew how to speak English because he would speak only German (a language he and hi cousins didn't speak) in the presence of children.
It doesn't keep them from getting their feelings hurt in the moment, but I think it helps them forgive him when he slips up. And I think it is an important relationship to nurture. (Were he abusive or truly toxic, I would not, so I'm not saying all familial relationships should be without question.)
We have also made it a point to try and have discussions with my FIL about different things that have come up over the years AWAY from the situation at hand. It's hard to do it without him feeling like he's being picked on, but we say things like, "Joseph usually responds pretty well to ..." instead of "Maybe you should have ..." it he is usually pretty receptive.
And we also remind them before they go over to their Grandparents' house what the house rules are. We help them remember while we are there. And try to provide them with activities they will enjoy without running afoul of the rules.
So, maybe the next time Alex is getting ready to go out with Grandpa you can remind him that it is not an expectation that Grandpa will buy him everything he wants, and you can encourage your Dad to see through Alex's eyes a bit and to maybe provide him time to explore the thing he wants in the store and ask questions about it and talk about how cool it is, etc., even if he's not going to be allowed to buy it and take it home.
-Angela in West Orange, NJ
Sandra Dodd
I keep having small windows where I can answer a few e-mails but not finish reading them. I'm speaking later today in two different places (near Trenton, and in Princeton) and I won't be back to e-mail until tomorrow, so I might be repeating what's been said.
-=- I'm sure my Dad knew this, but I don't know if he remembered at the time they were at Depot.-=-
Don't worry about "knew but didn't remembered" kinds of thoughts. TOO much thinking you could have invested in making decisions to be more peaceful.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Alex asked for the shovel and my Dad told him No, because he already has shovels at home.
-=-Alex asked again and my Dad pulled the "If you have money in your pocket you can buy it" card.-=-
That's not "a card." That was what your Dad felt. He was not willing to spend his own money against his own will. Neither should you. Neither should your son.
-=-At this, apparently Alex started to cry because he did not have any money. He even thought to say something like, "You could loan me the money and I will pay you back." Still the answer was No. -=-
I think this is too much analysis. You weren't there, but it seems you have taken depositions from your dad and Alex about exactly what happened. Too much examination and too much focus on the incident.
It seems you're thinking that becoming an unschooler, or having your own beliefs about parenting, means your parents must change their own actions and beliefs, but that's not at all true or fair or right. You don't get to decide for your spouse, or your children, or your parents. You don't get to write the scripts by which others live.
-=-My Dad noted to me that they were planning to go to another store after lunch and he was going to buy a new Lego set for them to work on that afternoon. I asked if he thought it could have helped to remind Alex of that plan. His answer was a curt, "No, I don't. I think at that moment he needed to learn that he doesn't always get whatever he wants."
-=-Yikes.-=-
You seem angry because your dad got what HE wanted, though.
-=-He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told him anyway. -=-
Maybe he didn't ask because he didn't care.
Maybe you shouldn't have told him anyway.
At that point you knew that Alex wanted that shovel. Unless the store is 100 miles away, you could go and get that for him and give it to him at some point when it seems unrelated to the current situation (which is being totally blown out of proportion).
-=-The kicker? When they got to Kmart after lunch and Alex picked a Lego set, he also spied a little train set and my Dad said "I thought that looked cool too so we got both." -=-
It's hypocritical for you to resent your father's generosity because it's not exactly what you would have done. Your expression of frustration and resentment might keep your dad from buying Lego or trains in the future. This is about control, and I think you're hoping people here will say "YES, you have a right to control your father's behavior!"
You don't.
Nor should you be shaming him for being a nice guy in his own chosen way.
-=-I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.-=-
Setting a better example of how to handle disappointment might have been more helpful, and even more respectful, for Alex.
I think Alex will be more harmed by witnessing (and being a party to) your disrespect for your father.
-=-Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. -=-
Except you want to control your dad.
-=-We are rethinking everything we've been taught.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It would be better to examine and reconsider everything you've learned. Some of what you've learned is right and good. Some of what you were "taught" you didn't actually learn. Some of what you learned might be things you want to shift away from.
-=-Quite honestly, my Dad resents how we're parenting (me mostly; he thinks my husband is just coming along for the ride) because it's mostly the opposite of how we were raised, which he takes as an affront to him.-=-
Understandably, if you're doing the opposite things.
You would probably feel affronted if Alex grew up and put his kids in school at 18 months and told you he didn't want to hear your opinion about that.
-=-1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?-=-
No, I don't think he was harmed at Home Depot.
I think he's being harmed by being embroiled in "an incident."
-=-2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"-=-
I think it would be better for all relationships involved if you said "I think I overreacted. You're not me."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- I'm sure my Dad knew this, but I don't know if he remembered at the time they were at Depot.-=-
Don't worry about "knew but didn't remembered" kinds of thoughts. TOO much thinking you could have invested in making decisions to be more peaceful.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Alex asked for the shovel and my Dad told him No, because he already has shovels at home.
-=-Alex asked again and my Dad pulled the "If you have money in your pocket you can buy it" card.-=-
That's not "a card." That was what your Dad felt. He was not willing to spend his own money against his own will. Neither should you. Neither should your son.
-=-At this, apparently Alex started to cry because he did not have any money. He even thought to say something like, "You could loan me the money and I will pay you back." Still the answer was No. -=-
I think this is too much analysis. You weren't there, but it seems you have taken depositions from your dad and Alex about exactly what happened. Too much examination and too much focus on the incident.
It seems you're thinking that becoming an unschooler, or having your own beliefs about parenting, means your parents must change their own actions and beliefs, but that's not at all true or fair or right. You don't get to decide for your spouse, or your children, or your parents. You don't get to write the scripts by which others live.
-=-My Dad noted to me that they were planning to go to another store after lunch and he was going to buy a new Lego set for them to work on that afternoon. I asked if he thought it could have helped to remind Alex of that plan. His answer was a curt, "No, I don't. I think at that moment he needed to learn that he doesn't always get whatever he wants."
-=-Yikes.-=-
You seem angry because your dad got what HE wanted, though.
-=-He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told him anyway. -=-
Maybe he didn't ask because he didn't care.
Maybe you shouldn't have told him anyway.
At that point you knew that Alex wanted that shovel. Unless the store is 100 miles away, you could go and get that for him and give it to him at some point when it seems unrelated to the current situation (which is being totally blown out of proportion).
-=-The kicker? When they got to Kmart after lunch and Alex picked a Lego set, he also spied a little train set and my Dad said "I thought that looked cool too so we got both." -=-
It's hypocritical for you to resent your father's generosity because it's not exactly what you would have done. Your expression of frustration and resentment might keep your dad from buying Lego or trains in the future. This is about control, and I think you're hoping people here will say "YES, you have a right to control your father's behavior!"
You don't.
Nor should you be shaming him for being a nice guy in his own chosen way.
-=-I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.-=-
Setting a better example of how to handle disappointment might have been more helpful, and even more respectful, for Alex.
I think Alex will be more harmed by witnessing (and being a party to) your disrespect for your father.
-=-Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. -=-
Except you want to control your dad.
-=-We are rethinking everything we've been taught.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It would be better to examine and reconsider everything you've learned. Some of what you've learned is right and good. Some of what you were "taught" you didn't actually learn. Some of what you learned might be things you want to shift away from.
-=-Quite honestly, my Dad resents how we're parenting (me mostly; he thinks my husband is just coming along for the ride) because it's mostly the opposite of how we were raised, which he takes as an affront to him.-=-
Understandably, if you're doing the opposite things.
You would probably feel affronted if Alex grew up and put his kids in school at 18 months and told you he didn't want to hear your opinion about that.
-=-1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?-=-
No, I don't think he was harmed at Home Depot.
I think he's being harmed by being embroiled in "an incident."
-=-2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?"-=-
I think it would be better for all relationships involved if you said "I think I overreacted. You're not me."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina Tarbutton
My short answer would have been something along the lines of maybe you're
not harming him, but you certainly harmed your relationship with him.
My partner and I unschool our 10 y/o, we now live with my parents due to a
medical situation we're helping out with. My mother disagrees with our
unschooling, however if a firm believer that it's "My child, my choice" she
does her best not to interfere, and when she interacts with Draven she does
her best to keep our parenting ideals in mind. He's 10 and
pretty independent so she rarely has to do much even when we're not here,
however she has on occasion called me to ask me how I would handle
a certain situation. Draven loves being around her and spending time with
her, and enjoys going out and about with her, even if she does occasionally
handle things in ways that I wouldn't.
My stepfather on the other hand is a very controlling grumpy old man. He
disagrees with any opinion that's not his own, and he doesn't apologize for
that. He looks for reasons to correct Draven, and pretty often my mother,
my partner and I are running interference and making sure Draven isn't in a
position to have to listen to his grumpy babble. Draven doesn't choose to
be around him any more than necessary. They have lots of common interests
(war shows, football games on TV, etc.) however Draven won't stay in the
room with him to watch those things with him and will instead watch it on a
different TV in a different room, and try to avoid having discussions with
him about what he's seen. Last time my stepdad took Draven out to lunch,
there was a disagreement over Draven wanting something from the main menu
and not the kids menu. Draven has not gone to lunch with him since, because
he feels he's not respected when he's with my step dad.
My father however is somewhere in between the two. He does correct Draven
when we're there (if I'm not right there to step in) and he's very set in
his ways. Draven has decided that the things he's able to do at my father's
house (specifically, run around on a huge farm and shoot bb guns and work
with tools of all types) is worth dealing with my father's attitude. He
does however check things through me before emailing or calling my dad to
make sure he's not opening himself up for a long discussion on something he
has no interest in. An example of this is that my dad sent Draven a book
full of gun information, and with the book there was a letter asking Draven
to keep in touch with my dad on any questions he had . . . his exact words
were "this is a book of questions, not answers". Draven knows that if he
doesn't keep an open dialoge going with my father about things in the book,
my father will be less receptive to helping him learn when he does have
questions. So Draven is willing to jump through those hoops, however he
does ask me to help with the e-mails, which I do. He does not have a great
relationship with my father, but he's willing to keep working on it because
my father is so interesting.
So the situation is, at what point is your father going to arbitrarily say
no to something, and that's the time that your son decides the minimization
of his wishes is more of a problem than it's worth. That's not saying your
father has to buy him everything he likes, but that perhaps your father can
come up with a way to not minimize his wishes. Instead of a direct no, how
about carrying a digital camera with them so your son can add it to a
picture wish list. How about if you give your son his own spending money
before they go, or offer spending money to your father. You and your father
can work together to find some way that won't harm his relationship with
your son, but will still allow your father the opportunity to say he's not
spending his money on that particular thing.
Tina
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Michelle and Hub <michelleandhub@...
not harming him, but you certainly harmed your relationship with him.
My partner and I unschool our 10 y/o, we now live with my parents due to a
medical situation we're helping out with. My mother disagrees with our
unschooling, however if a firm believer that it's "My child, my choice" she
does her best not to interfere, and when she interacts with Draven she does
her best to keep our parenting ideals in mind. He's 10 and
pretty independent so she rarely has to do much even when we're not here,
however she has on occasion called me to ask me how I would handle
a certain situation. Draven loves being around her and spending time with
her, and enjoys going out and about with her, even if she does occasionally
handle things in ways that I wouldn't.
My stepfather on the other hand is a very controlling grumpy old man. He
disagrees with any opinion that's not his own, and he doesn't apologize for
that. He looks for reasons to correct Draven, and pretty often my mother,
my partner and I are running interference and making sure Draven isn't in a
position to have to listen to his grumpy babble. Draven doesn't choose to
be around him any more than necessary. They have lots of common interests
(war shows, football games on TV, etc.) however Draven won't stay in the
room with him to watch those things with him and will instead watch it on a
different TV in a different room, and try to avoid having discussions with
him about what he's seen. Last time my stepdad took Draven out to lunch,
there was a disagreement over Draven wanting something from the main menu
and not the kids menu. Draven has not gone to lunch with him since, because
he feels he's not respected when he's with my step dad.
My father however is somewhere in between the two. He does correct Draven
when we're there (if I'm not right there to step in) and he's very set in
his ways. Draven has decided that the things he's able to do at my father's
house (specifically, run around on a huge farm and shoot bb guns and work
with tools of all types) is worth dealing with my father's attitude. He
does however check things through me before emailing or calling my dad to
make sure he's not opening himself up for a long discussion on something he
has no interest in. An example of this is that my dad sent Draven a book
full of gun information, and with the book there was a letter asking Draven
to keep in touch with my dad on any questions he had . . . his exact words
were "this is a book of questions, not answers". Draven knows that if he
doesn't keep an open dialoge going with my father about things in the book,
my father will be less receptive to helping him learn when he does have
questions. So Draven is willing to jump through those hoops, however he
does ask me to help with the e-mails, which I do. He does not have a great
relationship with my father, but he's willing to keep working on it because
my father is so interesting.
So the situation is, at what point is your father going to arbitrarily say
no to something, and that's the time that your son decides the minimization
of his wishes is more of a problem than it's worth. That's not saying your
father has to buy him everything he likes, but that perhaps your father can
come up with a way to not minimize his wishes. Instead of a direct no, how
about carrying a digital camera with them so your son can add it to a
picture wish list. How about if you give your son his own spending money
before they go, or offer spending money to your father. You and your father
can work together to find some way that won't harm his relationship with
your son, but will still allow your father the opportunity to say he's not
spending his money on that particular thing.
Tina
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Michelle and Hub <michelleandhub@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Then he asked me "Do you think I harmed him?" I told him it wasn't a simple
> answer for me and I would think about it and let him know.
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-So, maybe the next time Alex is getting ready to go out with Grandpa you can remind him that it is not an expectation that Grandpa will buy him everything he wants, and you can encourage your Dad to see through Alex's eyes a bit and to maybe provide him time to explore the thing he wants in the store and ask questions about it and talk about how cool it is, etc., even if he's not going to be allowed to buy it and take it home.-=-
I think those are good ideas.
I would probably (if it were my young child going out with grandpa) say "Don't ask him to buy you anything." Or maybe give your dad $20 for just in case the kid wants something (for the "your own money" part), but sometimes if a child knows there's money to spend, he looks for something to buy. So I would go with "Don't ask him to buy you anything."
Then you could ask your father-in-law in private later if there was anything the child had especially liked. Or maybe your father-in-law could take note of special interests, for a birthday or holiday gift.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think those are good ideas.
I would probably (if it were my young child going out with grandpa) say "Don't ask him to buy you anything." Or maybe give your dad $20 for just in case the kid wants something (for the "your own money" part), but sometimes if a child knows there's money to spend, he looks for something to buy. So I would go with "Don't ask him to buy you anything."
Then you could ask your father-in-law in private later if there was anything the child had especially liked. Or maybe your father-in-law could take note of special interests, for a birthday or holiday gift.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
> 1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?No. Grandpa and your son seemed to have a great time overall. I love the
bit about the two toys when they went to get the Lego.
> 2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think Iharmed him?"
I wouldn't be too hard on your dad. The mere fact that he's asking this
is great. He seems sensitive to your son and your feelings. He is out of
his element because of child raising differences. I also agree about the
spending money and preparing your son for the outing.
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], "Michelle and Hub"
<michelleandhub@...> wrote:
>a year. I could really use some guidance.
> Hi Folks,
>
> This is only my second post, though I have been reading for more than
>my Dad. After last week's visit, my Dad shared this story with me:
>
> My little boy, Alex, age 4.5, spends one or two Saturdays a month with
>browse around the store. Alex spotted a hand shovel and told my Dad he
> They were at Home Depot, first for a kids' build-it workshop, then to
wanted it. Not just any shovel, but one with an extendable handle. Alex
has been very intrigued by things with extendable handles lately, and I
have bought several such things when we've been out and he's asked to
have them. I'm sure my Dad knew this, but I don't know if he remembered
at the time they were at Depot. Alex asked for the shovel and my Dad
told him No, because he already has shovels at home. Alex asked again
and my Dad pulled the "If you have money in your pocket you can buy it"
card. At this, apparently Alex started to cry because he did not have
any money. He even thought to say something like, "You could loan me
the money and I will pay you back." Still the answer was No.
>snowblowers. My Dad clearly saw this as evidence that we (his parents)
> Around the corner it was the same scene, only this time with
don't ever say no to him, because see how quickly it escalated from hand
shovels to snowblowers.
>after lunch and he was going to buy a new Lego set for them to work on
> My Dad noted to me that they were planning to go to another store
that afternoon. I asked if he thought it could have helped to remind
Alex of that plan. His answer was a curt, "No, I don't. I think at
that moment he needed to learn that he doesn't always get whatever he
wants."
>him anyway. I told him I plan my trips and my budget and my time around
> Yikes.
>
> He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told
buying things he asks for as often as possible. When we have a tight
budget or tight time I leave Alex home a lot so he doesn't have to hear
No a lot. That got an accusation that has been thrown in my face
before: "You tend to want to take the Easy Way Out." (He said that
about babywearing, bed sharing, extended nursing, not giving him a
sibling, not leaving him with more babysitters, not letting him sleep
over, not sending him to school .)
>misbehaving in the store, thinking maybe my Dad was withholding the
> I took a deep breath.
>
> I asked was the shovel too expensive? No. I asked if Alex had been
shovel as a punishment. No.
>decided Alex had enough shovels already, and this would be a good time
> So, no good reason for not buying the shovel, except that my Dad
for a lesson.
>set, he also spied a little train set and my Dad said "I thought that
> The kicker? When they got to Kmart after lunch and Alex picked a Lego
looked cool too so we got both."
>decide that something looked cool so he bought it, but ALEX needed to be
> I took another deep breath, and chose not to point out that HE got to
taught a lesson. I'm sure that would have gotten me the "When he goes
to work and earns the money he can buy his own shovel" speech that I got
some version of dozens of times growing up.
>would have happened if you had bought the shovel?" He really believes
> I did ask him to think about "Why couldn't you have said yes? What
it's about the Someday down the road when he asks his boss for a raise,
he needs to be able to handle being told No.
>simple answer for me and I would think about it and let him know.
> Then he asked me "Do you think I harmed him?" I told him it wasn't a
>disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.
> Here's what I think, without anyone's feedback:
>
> I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with
>counts. Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are
> In the long run, I think it's what happens most of the time that
learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. We
are rethinking everything we've been taught. Quite honestly, my Dad
resents how we're parenting (me mostly; he thinks my husband is just
coming along for the ride) because it's mostly the opposite of how we
were raised, which he takes as an affront to him. He feels defensive,
and ends up speaking to me regularly with an attitude of "Thank
goodness Alex has me, or else he'd never learn any of the important
things in life from you two."
>harmed him?"
>
> At this point, I'm reaching out to the Group for feedback:
>
> 1. Do you think Alex was harmed at Home Depot?
> 2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Thanks,
> Michelle
>
Michelle and Hub
--- In [email protected], "Claire" <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
>**I do not expect my Dad to make any purchases for Alex. I will make sure my Dad knows this. I have told him one aspect of my approach to buying things (not taking him shopping with me as often), but I can elaborate on the other ideas I use also (wish list).**
> However, in the situation you described, you did not mention the financial aspect of the arrangement you have with your dad when he looks after Alex. Do you provide your dad with spending money to cover purchases for Alex? Has your dad specifically offered to buy things for Alex during their time together? I would not expect my parents to make spontaneous purchases for my kids when they were out together. It's up to your dad how he chooses to spend his money. It definitely would have been relationship-building if he had chosen to get the shovel for Alex, but I wouldn't say Alex has been harmed.
> In answering your dad's question, I would briefly outline your own approach to buying things for your son, but would make it clear that you don't expect that your dad will necessarily do the same. I would say that I don't think he harmed Alex, but maybe put forward that a child may place a much higher value on something than an adult would, and that it is very nurturing of the relationship to recognise that.
>
Michelle and Hub
--- In [email protected], Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:
Worried and confused seems very likely. I'll ask him.**
>**No reason, except that is very likely to inflame my Dad. He would see it as evidence that I am weak. Maybe I need to deal with that.**
> Is there any reason you cannot go to Home Depot to purchase this shovel?
> I think your dad is worried,and confused. He felt the shovel was less**He did have fun. Never even mentioned it, actually.
> appropriate than the Lego or train, perhaps,and that might seem arbitrary to
> you given his generosity with the train. He is judging Alex's interests and
> deciding which he will support. Eventually this could harm Alex if grandpa
> supports his interests only sometimes. Does that seem to be an issue?
>
> It sounds as if your son had fun.
>
Worried and confused seems very likely. I'll ask him.**
Michelle and Hub
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Don't worry about "knew but didn't remembered" kinds of thoughts. TOO much thinking you could have invested in making decisions to be more peaceful.**Wouldn't be the first time I've been told I think too much. I'll revisit that page for sure.**
> http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
>
> I think this is too much analysis. You weren't there, but it seems you have taken depositions from your dad and Alex about exactly what happened. Too much examination and too much focus on the incident.**My Dad brought up the story to me, and I'm giving his account here. I never brought it up to Alex, and he never mentioned it (or the shovel). I'm focusing on this incident, but it carries more weight for me. My Dad and I have a long history of shame and blame.**
>**Wow, I'll admit this was a shock to hear. Not new though.**
> It seems you're thinking that becoming an unschooler, or having your own beliefs about parenting, means your parents must change their own actions and beliefs, but that's not at all true or fair or right. You don't get to decide for your spouse, or your children, or your parents. You don't get to write the scripts by which others live.
> It's hypocritical for you to resent your father's generosity because it's not exactly what you would have done.>**Could you please say more about this? I don't understand.**
> Nor should you be shaming him for being a nice guy in his own chosen way.**How have I shamed him? How have I disrespected him?**
>**Got this.**
> Setting a better example of how to handle disappointment might have been more helpful, and even more respectful, for Alex.
>**I can see that I definitely do. I'll be honest, then: I don't know what is the non-controlling response.**
> -=-Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls. -=-
>
> Except you want to control your dad.
>**I will look at this. Thank you.**
> -=-We are rethinking everything we've been taught.-=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
> It would be better to examine and reconsider everything you've learned. Some of what you've learned is right and good. Some of what you were "taught" you didn't actually learn. Some of what you learned might be things you want to shift away from.
>
> No, I don't think he was harmed at Home Depot.**Alex is not involved in any incident at this point. He *is* involved in a contentious relationship between his Mom and his Grandpap. I will look at what's in my power to change here.**
> I think he's being harmed by being embroiled in "an incident."
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I think your dad is worried,and confused.
I bet he was neither worried nor confused.
-=-Worried and confused seems very likely. I'll ask him.**
I think it's been talked about and written about way more than it's worth. i hope you didn't ask him if he was worried or confused. It's not worth all this.
==============
If your son never even mentioned the shovel (if that's what that means), then it's blown WAY, way (way) out of proportion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I bet he was neither worried nor confused.
-=-Worried and confused seems very likely. I'll ask him.**
I think it's been talked about and written about way more than it's worth. i hope you didn't ask him if he was worried or confused. It's not worth all this.
> It sounds as if your son had fun.**He did have fun. Never even mentioned it, actually.
==============
If your son never even mentioned the shovel (if that's what that means), then it's blown WAY, way (way) out of proportion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle and Hub
--- In [email protected], "Angela" <argwolff@...> wrote:
I can see that a conversation with my Dad might be helpful. One thing I realized just now is that this isn't an issue in the warm weather months. When it's nice weather they're often going places and playing outside. They have spent more time in his house this winter, and they started going shopping to buy something to work on for their afternoon indoor project. I'll ask him if he (my Dad) wants some toys to live at his house. He hasn't wanted this in the past, but maybe that's changed.**
> I agree with Claire in that I wouldn't expect my parent or in-law to purchase things every time my children asked.**I do not expect my dad to buy everything Alex asks for. Do I come across as ungrateful?
I can see that a conversation with my Dad might be helpful. One thing I realized just now is that this isn't an issue in the warm weather months. When it's nice weather they're often going places and playing outside. They have spent more time in his house this winter, and they started going shopping to buy something to work on for their afternoon indoor project. I'll ask him if he (my Dad) wants some toys to live at his house. He hasn't wanted this in the past, but maybe that's changed.**
> I would think that if any harm were done in this situation it was to the relationship between Alex and his grandfather, not to Alex himself.**I don't exactly see the difference, so if you can elaborate I'd appreciate it.**
>**My Dad has been known to call Alex names too. May I ask, what do you say to put a stop to it?**
> We put an immediate stop to any name calling: my father-in-law has been known to say things like "don't be a baby!"
> The kids may ask, either directly of their own parents or sometimes to the room in general, "Can we go outside?" and my FIL will pop up with a quick "Not right now." We will speak up and say something like, "Oh is dinner almost ready?" and if the answer is no, then we step back in and say, "Well, then I think it' ok if you go out now, but we'll want you to come in and clean up before dinner." That way we are respecting our kids without totally disrespecting my FIL in the process or vice-versa.**This kind of situation happens all the time with us. It happened just tonight actually. When I stepped back to support Alex in my Dad told me later I was undermining his authority with Alex.**
> And I think it is an important relationship to nurture. (Were he abusive or truly toxic, I would not, so I'm not saying all familial relationships should be without question.)**I think so too. But I'll be honest: I don't know if he is abusive or truly toxic. I have been asking myself that for a long time.**
> So, maybe the next time Alex is getting ready to go out with Grandpa you can remind him that it is not an expectation that Grandpa will buy him everything he wants, and you can encourage your Dad to see through Alex's eyes a bit and to maybe provide him time to explore the thing he wants in the store and ask questions about it and talk about how cool it is, etc., even if he's not going to be allowed to buy it and take it home.**This is a great suggestion.**
Michelle and Hub
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I've been reading a little (a lot)...I need to try a little, and wait a while, and watch.**
> Then you could ask your father-in-law in private later if there was anything the child had especially liked. Or maybe your father-in-law could take note of special interests, for a birthday or holiday gift.**Hmm, hadn't thought of that.
>
I've been reading a little (a lot)...I need to try a little, and wait a while, and watch.**
k
-=-Most of the time Alex spends with me and my husband. We are
learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls.-=-
know what is the non-controlling response.-=-
By focusing on how you want to be and what you want to do when
interacting with your child, and not seeing others as central in that
relationship.
Conventional parenting says not to let your parenting be influenced by
your child. If your dad thinks it's weak, his opinion is based on what
he believes about parenting. Telling him he's wrong is based on the
assumption that you will eventually share the same parenting ideas yet
currently you don't and may never do so.
If your focus is to get your dad on board (which may not happen),
that's a lot of diverted energy. Can you see how that detracts from
focusing on your own family?
~Katherine
learning to say yes as often as we can. We are relaxing controls.-=-
>>> Except you want to control your dad. <<<-=-I can see that I definitely do. I'll be honest, then: I don't
know what is the non-controlling response.-=-
By focusing on how you want to be and what you want to do when
interacting with your child, and not seeing others as central in that
relationship.
Conventional parenting says not to let your parenting be influenced by
your child. If your dad thinks it's weak, his opinion is based on what
he believes about parenting. Telling him he's wrong is based on the
assumption that you will eventually share the same parenting ideas yet
currently you don't and may never do so.
If your focus is to get your dad on board (which may not happen),
that's a lot of diverted energy. Can you see how that detracts from
focusing on your own family?
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=- Do I come across as ungrateful?-=-
Clearly.
Finding gratitude is a way to dissipate that.
-=- I'm focusing on this incident, but it carries more weight for me. My Dad and I have a long history of shame and blame.-=-
Then please stop shaming and blaming.
If it's not about Alex, you presented the situation falsely. If it's about you and your dad, or more specifically your own blinding resentment and frustration, perhaps you should deal with that in a way that does put Alex first.
-=-Alex is not involved in any incident at this point.-=-
I doubt you have masked your frustration. All the energy spent worrying and talking to your dad and writing to us could have been spent with Alex.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Please listen to the sound file at the bottom of that. It could help you make decisions about how to choose your own actions, and eventually reactions.
When you respond, please don't mark your new words. People are using **stars** to show what they're quoting (or using -=-something else-=-) but your new words in a post should not be flagged that way.
Sample of the confusing text:
We can't tell you what "THE" non-controlling response is, but if you listen to the presentation linked above (me and Richard Prystowsky at a conference in California some years ago), you will be able to begin right where you are and move incrementally toward making responses that are more accepting and less controlling.
-=-I do not expect my Dad to make any purchases for Alex. I will make sure my Dad knows this. I have told him one aspect of my approach to buying things (not taking him shopping with me as often), but I can elaborate on the other ideas I use also (wish list).-=-
It still sounds like you're teaching your dad how you expect him to behave.
Maybe what you should say to your dad is simply "I'm sorry I over-reacted to the shovel story."
And no more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clearly.
Finding gratitude is a way to dissipate that.
-=- I'm focusing on this incident, but it carries more weight for me. My Dad and I have a long history of shame and blame.-=-
Then please stop shaming and blaming.
If it's not about Alex, you presented the situation falsely. If it's about you and your dad, or more specifically your own blinding resentment and frustration, perhaps you should deal with that in a way that does put Alex first.
-=-Alex is not involved in any incident at this point.-=-
I doubt you have masked your frustration. All the energy spent worrying and talking to your dad and writing to us could have been spent with Alex.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Please listen to the sound file at the bottom of that. It could help you make decisions about how to choose your own actions, and eventually reactions.
When you respond, please don't mark your new words. People are using **stars** to show what they're quoting (or using -=-something else-=-) but your new words in a post should not be flagged that way.
Sample of the confusing text:
> Except you want to control your dad.**I can see that I definitely do. I'll be honest, then: I don't know what is the non-controlling response.**
We can't tell you what "THE" non-controlling response is, but if you listen to the presentation linked above (me and Richard Prystowsky at a conference in California some years ago), you will be able to begin right where you are and move incrementally toward making responses that are more accepting and less controlling.
-=-I do not expect my Dad to make any purchases for Alex. I will make sure my Dad knows this. I have told him one aspect of my approach to buying things (not taking him shopping with me as often), but I can elaborate on the other ideas I use also (wish list).-=-
It still sounds like you're teaching your dad how you expect him to behave.
Maybe what you should say to your dad is simply "I'm sorry I over-reacted to the shovel story."
And no more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> I would think that if any harm were done in this situation it was to the relationship between Alex and his grandfather, not to Alex himself.**I don't exactly see the difference, so if you can elaborate I'd appreciate it.**
Perhaps it would be helpful to read (a little, not everything) about co-dependency.
The difference between me myself separate and me+Keith, or me+Holly, or me+ anyone on this list or in my life seems clear to me. Those are small aspects of me, but there is a me that is separate and whole.
Alex is the center of his own universe, but not the center of his grandfather's universe.
Alex is a small part of his grandfather's universe, and being grateful for that intersection would be better than trying to define and control it.
But in all of this, I don't see that there was any harm to that relationship anyway. It's being projected from the mom's own whole life of memories and from the mom's perception of her relationship with her dad.
When my dad died, my sister and I discussed how different he was in her life and in mine. MY dad was all my memories and experiences and perceptions. Her dad wasn't as cool a guy. She was younger during the divorce and suffered more from a stepmother situation that hardly affected me at all. I didn't try to persuade her that her perception was wrong. It was just different.
Years after my dad's father died, my grandmother admitted she had been jealous because I loved my Papaw and enjoyed my time with him, because he hadn't always been a nice guy to her. But he was always a nice guy to ME. Anything he had done in the 1930's or 40's didn't affect my life one single bit, and he was patient and entertaining and actually paid attention to me. He would drive me "to town" (Rotan, Texas, from the point of view of his house) to get "pop" (invariably Dr Pepper in little bottles) and it was wonderful. He would sing to me. I didn't really need to know, then or later, about how he was as a husband thirty years before that. And they stayed together until his natural death, so from my point of view it must have been good enough.
A young boy doesn't need to know the details nor to be bathed in the emotion of how his mother or grandmother feels about his grandfather. That is HIS grandfather, and their relationship isn't anyone else's. Nor is their relationship the son's entire world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"Michelle and Hub" <michelleandhub@...> wrote:
Next time, it would probably be better to find a way to simply move on. Say "I'm sorry you were frustrated" or "Did you have a good time over all?" Don't get in to who's right or wrong about parenting because both of you are likely going to feel like the other person is trying to teach you something you don't want to learn and resist.
Does your son enjoy going out with his grandfather? Keep that question open in your mind - if he stops wanting to go out with him, then he doesn't have to go. At the same time, you can look for ways to smooth things over. Maybe give your son some discretionary spending money and tell grandpa your expectation is that he can spend it on Anything. Or remind your son that its not a good idea to ask grandpa to buy things - but if he remembers them when he gets home you can go out with him later.
Over time, your son may decide that a relationship with his grandpa isn't worth the way he's treated. You can support that. Over time, he Will learn that people are sometimes creeps and hurt other people because that's part of human behavior. You can't protect him from All of that - its part of real life. You can provide a safe place to come home to, though, and a relationship that doesn't set him up to get hurt over and over. You can help him problem solve and have more choices in the world. You can go get that shovel, for instance, if he still wants it, and let him know that you take his desires seriously and are willing to stand up for him. Otherwise, you're culpable - you hurt your own relationship with your son by telling him his grandfather was right.
---Meredith
>> He didn't ask me how I might have handled this situation, but I told him anyway.**************
Next time, it would probably be better to find a way to simply move on. Say "I'm sorry you were frustrated" or "Did you have a good time over all?" Don't get in to who's right or wrong about parenting because both of you are likely going to feel like the other person is trying to teach you something you don't want to learn and resist.
Does your son enjoy going out with his grandfather? Keep that question open in your mind - if he stops wanting to go out with him, then he doesn't have to go. At the same time, you can look for ways to smooth things over. Maybe give your son some discretionary spending money and tell grandpa your expectation is that he can spend it on Anything. Or remind your son that its not a good idea to ask grandpa to buy things - but if he remembers them when he gets home you can go out with him later.
>>> I think in the short run, yes, Alex was harmed. He was treated with disrespect, and that's harmful to a person.***************
Over time, your son may decide that a relationship with his grandpa isn't worth the way he's treated. You can support that. Over time, he Will learn that people are sometimes creeps and hurt other people because that's part of human behavior. You can't protect him from All of that - its part of real life. You can provide a safe place to come home to, though, and a relationship that doesn't set him up to get hurt over and over. You can help him problem solve and have more choices in the world. You can go get that shovel, for instance, if he still wants it, and let him know that you take his desires seriously and are willing to stand up for him. Otherwise, you're culpable - you hurt your own relationship with your son by telling him his grandfather was right.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"Michelle and Hub" <michelleandhub@...> wrote:
Does he do it in front of you? You could say "its okay" to your son and ignore your dad. You could say "I'll take it from here, grandpa".
** When I stepped back to support Alex in my Dad told me later I was undermining his authority with Alex.**
Well, he's right, you are - what's more, you are doing so deliberately. I'm not saying that's a Bad thing, but its something other parents (and grandparents) will find surprising. One of The Rules of Parenting is "support other parents".
Find a gentle way - or a blunt way - of saying "I'm the mom, you Have No authority." It's not something to argue about. He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours. He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period.
That's your wild card in this game. If things really are "toxic" the moment your son decides putting up with grandpa's attitudes isn't worth the hassle, he can say "No" and you'll back him all the way. Sorry, grandpa, Alex doesn't want to go.
But at the same time, you don't have to set things up to fail. You can look for opportunities to be gentle and kind and smooth things over that don't hurt your son's feelings or your dad's. Their relationship doesn't have to be picture perfect to be an okay relationship, one that's worth overlooking a bit of human failing for. Lots of relationships have room in them for human failing, and that's a good thing.
---Meredith
>> **My Dad has been known to call Alex names too. May I ask, what do you say to put a stop to it?****************
Does he do it in front of you? You could say "its okay" to your son and ignore your dad. You could say "I'll take it from here, grandpa".
** When I stepped back to support Alex in my Dad told me later I was undermining his authority with Alex.**
Well, he's right, you are - what's more, you are doing so deliberately. I'm not saying that's a Bad thing, but its something other parents (and grandparents) will find surprising. One of The Rules of Parenting is "support other parents".
Find a gentle way - or a blunt way - of saying "I'm the mom, you Have No authority." It's not something to argue about. He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours. He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period.
That's your wild card in this game. If things really are "toxic" the moment your son decides putting up with grandpa's attitudes isn't worth the hassle, he can say "No" and you'll back him all the way. Sorry, grandpa, Alex doesn't want to go.
But at the same time, you don't have to set things up to fail. You can look for opportunities to be gentle and kind and smooth things over that don't hurt your son's feelings or your dad's. Their relationship doesn't have to be picture perfect to be an okay relationship, one that's worth overlooking a bit of human failing for. Lots of relationships have room in them for human failing, and that's a good thing.
---Meredith
Jennifer Schuelein
>> **My Dad has been known to call Alex names too. May I ask, what do you say to put a stop to it?**I would never have any of these conversations in from of your son. If you argue about differences in parenting in front of Alex then it's obvious that you are undermining grandpa's authority and presenting an even more confusing situation to your son. When you are alone with your dad, just be kind and honest. Tell him how you feel about the name calling and then kindly ask him to stop.
I have a similar story to Sandra's concerning my father. He was a great dad to ME, but pretty horrible to my brother and mom. When he passed away, I was the only one that was phased. They didn't understand my feelings because my dad hadn't been their dad. Let your dad be grandpa to Alex and not just an extension of the dad he was/is to you. They really are separate.
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Michelle and Hub" <michelleandhub@> wrote:
> >> **My Dad has been known to call Alex names too. May I ask, what do you say to put a stop to it?**
> **************
>
> Does he do it in front of you? You could say "its okay" to your son and ignore your dad. You could say "I'll take it from here, grandpa".
>
> ** When I stepped back to support Alex in my Dad told me later I was undermining his authority with Alex.**
>
> Well, he's right, you are - what's more, you are doing so deliberately. I'm not saying that's a Bad thing, but its something other parents (and grandparents) will find surprising. One of The Rules of Parenting is "support other parents".
>
> Find a gentle way - or a blunt way - of saying "I'm the mom, you Have No authority." It's not something to argue about. He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours. He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period.
>
> That's your wild card in this game. If things really are "toxic" the moment your son decides putting up with grandpa's attitudes isn't worth the hassle, he can say "No" and you'll back him all the way. Sorry, grandpa, Alex doesn't want to go.
>
> But at the same time, you don't have to set things up to fail. You can look for opportunities to be gentle and kind and smooth things over that don't hurt your son's feelings or your dad's. Their relationship doesn't have to be picture perfect to be an okay relationship, one that's worth overlooking a bit of human failing for. Lots of relationships have room in them for human failing, and that's a good thing.
>
> ---Meredith
>
HA
> 2. How would you suggest I answer my Dad's question "Do you think I harmed him?" <I would say, "I'm sorry I got hung up on the shovel. Thank you so much for what happened after lunch. It means so much to Alex when you follow up on things he likes."
Your dad bought the train set because he was trying to make up for earlier. He said yes when he easily could have said no. An effective way of keeping that going is by showing appreciation for it when it happens. :)
Good luck,
Hilary E.
Angela
--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Schuelein" <fairiedust66@...> wrote:
When it happens, we speak up and say "You can tell her how you feel about her behavior without calling her names." or sometimes a quick, "No name calling, please." (not unlike what we say to the kids when they are doing it to each other).
Once when my FIL called my daughter a cry baby I first asked him not to, and then when he later, away from her and the situation said, "But she does cry over everything, so why shouldn't I say that?" I said, "Would you like me to call you and asshole every time you and I disagree on something? And would it help our relationship at all? Or help you to see my point of view?" He seemed to get that. (That sounds a lot more impertinent than it was, but I knew before I said it that he wouldn't object to the language. Being inflammatory wouldn't have helped!) _Then_ we had a discussion about why she was crying and what we have found works to calm her and get her to think and act more clearly in similar situations.
But _HE_ was open to the discussion and initiated it. Had he not, I would have left it at asking him not to call her names. They're old dogs. I'm happy when they are interested in new tricks (-:, but I don't expect them to fully embrace them.
I definitely agree with other posters that this all seems to be much more about your relationship with your dad than about your Dad's relationship with his grandson. (Especially when you say Alex didn't mention it at all.) And if you want your son and father to have their own relationship you've got to figure out how to let some of the old stuff go.
This is a quick read if you are looking for ways you can improve the way you view your relationship with your father and change the way you interact with him as an adult. It's not about getting him to change.
http://www.amazon.com/Nobodys-Baby-Now-Relationship-ebook/dp/B002STNBHK/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
>I'm not sure I agree with this completely. Yes when it comes to parenting styles, etc., but I don't allow my FIL to call my child a name and not ask him to stop. Right then. (though I'm going to give the suggestion of "I'll take it from here" some thought.)
> >> **My Dad has been known to call Alex names too. May I ask, what do you say to put a stop to it?**
>
> I would never have any of these conversations in from of your son. If you argue about differences in parenting in front of Alex then it's obvious that you are undermining grandpa's authority and presenting an even more confusing situation to your son. When you are alone with your dad, just be kind and honest. Tell him how you feel about the name calling and then kindly ask him to stop.
>
When it happens, we speak up and say "You can tell her how you feel about her behavior without calling her names." or sometimes a quick, "No name calling, please." (not unlike what we say to the kids when they are doing it to each other).
Once when my FIL called my daughter a cry baby I first asked him not to, and then when he later, away from her and the situation said, "But she does cry over everything, so why shouldn't I say that?" I said, "Would you like me to call you and asshole every time you and I disagree on something? And would it help our relationship at all? Or help you to see my point of view?" He seemed to get that. (That sounds a lot more impertinent than it was, but I knew before I said it that he wouldn't object to the language. Being inflammatory wouldn't have helped!) _Then_ we had a discussion about why she was crying and what we have found works to calm her and get her to think and act more clearly in similar situations.
But _HE_ was open to the discussion and initiated it. Had he not, I would have left it at asking him not to call her names. They're old dogs. I'm happy when they are interested in new tricks (-:, but I don't expect them to fully embrace them.
I definitely agree with other posters that this all seems to be much more about your relationship with your dad than about your Dad's relationship with his grandson. (Especially when you say Alex didn't mention it at all.) And if you want your son and father to have their own relationship you've got to figure out how to let some of the old stuff go.
This is a quick read if you are looking for ways you can improve the way you view your relationship with your father and change the way you interact with him as an adult. It's not about getting him to change.
http://www.amazon.com/Nobodys-Baby-Now-Relationship-ebook/dp/B002STNBHK/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
[email protected]
**My Dad brought up the story to me, and I'm giving his account here.**
After having heard him through, I might have said something like "Oh Dad, it's a little humorous that you were happy to buy him an extra toy but not another tool!" with a smile and a chuckle. :) And I might have mentioned that it's hard for 4 year olds to express disappointment appropriately, and left it at that. (Well, I might have if I still had both a Dad and a small child, anyway!)
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
After having heard him through, I might have said something like "Oh Dad, it's a little humorous that you were happy to buy him an extra toy but not another tool!" with a smile and a chuckle. :) And I might have mentioned that it's hard for 4 year olds to express disappointment appropriately, and left it at that. (Well, I might have if I still had both a Dad and a small child, anyway!)
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
Sandra wrote:
This is a gem. When I replace "Alex and his grandfather" with my child (or myself) and the other people in our lives the gratitude I feel for those relationships comes into sharp focus. Thank you.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>Alex is the center of his own universe, but not the center of his grandfather's universe.Alex is a small part of his grandfather's universe, and being grateful for that intersection would be better than trying to define and control it.<<<
This is a gem. When I replace "Alex and his grandfather" with my child (or myself) and the other people in our lives the gratitude I feel for those relationships comes into sharp focus. Thank you.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Find a gentle way - or a blunt way - of saying "I'm the mom, you Have No authority." It's not something to argue about. He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours. He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period. -=-
It depends, about the "no authority." If they live in his house, he has some authority. If they're riding in his car, he has some authority.
-=- He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours.-=-
Well...
He is STILL being a parent.
And my turn to be a parent does not imbue me with the magical power to control others.
Being a parent doesn't mean changing the world to suit my ideal.
It means making the best decisions I can in the moment.
-=- He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period.-=-
This isn't true if the family shares a house, or if the son visits the grandparents in ANY sort of childcare arrangement.
And it might not be true, in some jurisdictions, even if the mother is so blunt that they become estranged.
It's not good to recklessly burn bridges, or to separate children from their relatives without child-abuse or substance-abuse factors.
Although it sounds "supportive" to tell a mom that she can do anything she wants with/to/for her child, it's not very supportive of seeing the child as a separate person with his own thoughts and feelings and sensibilities.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It depends, about the "no authority." If they live in his house, he has some authority. If they're riding in his car, he has some authority.
-=- He had his chance as a parent. Now its yours.-=-
Well...
He is STILL being a parent.
And my turn to be a parent does not imbue me with the magical power to control others.
Being a parent doesn't mean changing the world to suit my ideal.
It means making the best decisions I can in the moment.
-=- He Gets to have contact with his grandson because you allow it. Period.-=-
This isn't true if the family shares a house, or if the son visits the grandparents in ANY sort of childcare arrangement.
And it might not be true, in some jurisdictions, even if the mother is so blunt that they become estranged.
It's not good to recklessly burn bridges, or to separate children from their relatives without child-abuse or substance-abuse factors.
Although it sounds "supportive" to tell a mom that she can do anything she wants with/to/for her child, it's not very supportive of seeing the child as a separate person with his own thoughts and feelings and sensibilities.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>It's not good to recklessly burn bridges, or to separate children from their relatives without child-abuse or substance-abuse factors.<<<Here's how it's good to not burn bridges. Karl doesn't love spending
>>>Although it sounds "supportive" to tell a mom that she can do anything she wants with/to/for her child, it's not very supportive of seeing the child as a separate person with his own thoughts and feelings and sensibilities.<<<
time with his grandparents. But not because I have made it unpleasant
or difficult or somehow weird. Instead, it has been Karl's decision to
spend less time with his grandparents and more with at his aunt's
house (adjacent to his grandparent's house) because it's more fun
there. He made his very own comparison and decided what he wanted.
So that when his granddad comes over to his aunt's house while he's
there, the hugs are genuine and just the right amount of time. His
granddad starts talking usually to another adult about a project or
some idea or whatever. Karl goes back to playing.
I'm really happy that Karl has easy access to other choices when he's
over that way and the visits with the grandparents are pleasant while
also not very involved. It's lucky for us that the situation is like
that. If it weren't like that, and Karl wanted to leave soon after
arriving, I'd do like I have for myself in the past and make sure to
leave soon with someplace to go, because there's always someplace fun
we can be. Usually.
~Katherine
k
Well I went back and looked on Joyce's site as well as Sandra's, and
couldn't find the reference to the dimmer switch idea. I swear it was
there and I guess I'm overlooking it or it's been taken off. :(
Decisions can be made in all sorts of ways. One way is to make them by
degrees, bit by bit, dialing to just the right amount for one thing
and then adjusting to a different setting for something else. For
eating a romantic dinner, I'm likely to put the lights on a low
setting, or turn fewer lights on or turn no lights on and light
candles, maybe a lot of candles or only one big one or a couple of
small ones. Depending on the effect I want to have.
Then separate settings for table layout and what food to serve and how
to present it and so on. Separate settings for any number of things.
Lots and lots of things to choose from. The way real life is. Think of
it as lots and lots of decision making practice for your children. In
a protected environment where the consequences are not usually so big
as they will be once they're older. They will have lots of decision
making skills if you let them start now instead of later.
Even, especially!, in relationships.
I wrote about Karl deciding how much interaction he wants from his
granddad, and also factored in is how much his granddad wants to
interact with Karl. I WANT it to be their decision. When Karl is
older, there will be as close to zero responsibility as possible on my
part for being in the WAY of what others want or pushing something
others DON'T want.
Speaking as a daughter who cut her parents off for many years (about
15 years, most of my adult life):
When my parents, both of them, tried to influence how my relationship
with Karl would go, I quietly stayed at home a lot and resisted their
attempts to get me off breastfeeding sooner than me and Karl wanted
to, among other similar things. Now everybody is older and the bond is
still intact, though we have all changed in a number of ways,
especially Karl.
Skip to the present. Karl and his granddad are always in the process
of dialing several facets in their relationship one at a time and
coming up with unique combinations that each find satisfaction in.
Their own Goldilocks way of reaching what's comfortable instead of me
being in the middle of things, feeling like an extra. I used to pay a
whole lot more attention than I do now to the details. I still pay a
good bit of attention, and it has been fascinating to watch the
changes in how they interact. Lots of little things I didn't expect.
Greater respect, for one.
The above has a decided "wait until you get there" to it. Instead of
thinking too much in advance, look at things, time, amounts, etcetera
in smaller increments. The truly fascinating part is to be so
privileged as to see the quick connections in the moments they're
being made. I've noticed that the fastest way from A to B is not
always a straight line. I like watching Karl's confidence with his
granddad. That's better than I ever imagined it would be.
Other considerations:
When people make decisions, they first might think that one can only
choose between two things and that's it. It does simplify things to do
that.
There are way more than two things. I like the way Sandra acknowledges
complexity while showing how decision making really is simple when you
get right down to it.... now if I could just find that page on her
website that talks about making the better choice. I found a shorter
version which I also like:
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice
The original version I'm thinking of was longer, and a conversation in
Society for Creative Anachronism was involved. It had the flavor of
not thinking dualistically in terms of good or bad, of deciding for
the better of two GOOD choices after, of course, ruling out bad ideas
or things you don't want or directions you don't want to go in.
Don't laugh, but I'm a Libra, continually weighing things and seldom
coming to a decision. Cutting out anything I don't want has definitely
made decisions a whole lot easier for me. :D Because I used to think I
"have to" include everything in order to make a full consideration of
what's before me. And, funnily enough, I don't.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto
~Katherine
couldn't find the reference to the dimmer switch idea. I swear it was
there and I guess I'm overlooking it or it's been taken off. :(
Decisions can be made in all sorts of ways. One way is to make them by
degrees, bit by bit, dialing to just the right amount for one thing
and then adjusting to a different setting for something else. For
eating a romantic dinner, I'm likely to put the lights on a low
setting, or turn fewer lights on or turn no lights on and light
candles, maybe a lot of candles or only one big one or a couple of
small ones. Depending on the effect I want to have.
Then separate settings for table layout and what food to serve and how
to present it and so on. Separate settings for any number of things.
Lots and lots of things to choose from. The way real life is. Think of
it as lots and lots of decision making practice for your children. In
a protected environment where the consequences are not usually so big
as they will be once they're older. They will have lots of decision
making skills if you let them start now instead of later.
Even, especially!, in relationships.
I wrote about Karl deciding how much interaction he wants from his
granddad, and also factored in is how much his granddad wants to
interact with Karl. I WANT it to be their decision. When Karl is
older, there will be as close to zero responsibility as possible on my
part for being in the WAY of what others want or pushing something
others DON'T want.
Speaking as a daughter who cut her parents off for many years (about
15 years, most of my adult life):
When my parents, both of them, tried to influence how my relationship
with Karl would go, I quietly stayed at home a lot and resisted their
attempts to get me off breastfeeding sooner than me and Karl wanted
to, among other similar things. Now everybody is older and the bond is
still intact, though we have all changed in a number of ways,
especially Karl.
Skip to the present. Karl and his granddad are always in the process
of dialing several facets in their relationship one at a time and
coming up with unique combinations that each find satisfaction in.
Their own Goldilocks way of reaching what's comfortable instead of me
being in the middle of things, feeling like an extra. I used to pay a
whole lot more attention than I do now to the details. I still pay a
good bit of attention, and it has been fascinating to watch the
changes in how they interact. Lots of little things I didn't expect.
Greater respect, for one.
The above has a decided "wait until you get there" to it. Instead of
thinking too much in advance, look at things, time, amounts, etcetera
in smaller increments. The truly fascinating part is to be so
privileged as to see the quick connections in the moments they're
being made. I've noticed that the fastest way from A to B is not
always a straight line. I like watching Karl's confidence with his
granddad. That's better than I ever imagined it would be.
Other considerations:
When people make decisions, they first might think that one can only
choose between two things and that's it. It does simplify things to do
that.
There are way more than two things. I like the way Sandra acknowledges
complexity while showing how decision making really is simple when you
get right down to it.... now if I could just find that page on her
website that talks about making the better choice. I found a shorter
version which I also like:
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice
The original version I'm thinking of was longer, and a conversation in
Society for Creative Anachronism was involved. It had the flavor of
not thinking dualistically in terms of good or bad, of deciding for
the better of two GOOD choices after, of course, ruling out bad ideas
or things you don't want or directions you don't want to go in.
Don't laugh, but I'm a Libra, continually weighing things and seldom
coming to a decision. Cutting out anything I don't want has definitely
made decisions a whole lot easier for me. :D Because I used to think I
"have to" include everything in order to make a full consideration of
what's before me. And, funnily enough, I don't.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-Well I went back and looked on Joyce's site as well as Sandra's, and
couldn't find the reference to the dimmer switch idea-=-
Maybe it's in Peaceful Parenting (the audio file).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
couldn't find the reference to the dimmer switch idea-=-
Maybe it's in Peaceful Parenting (the audio file).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
These are definitely at http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
and I was thinking about buying a foot pedal to transcribe it off (a play/pause pedal for my computer).
now if I could just find that page on her
website that talks about making the better choice. I found a shorter
version which I also like:
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice
The original version I'm thinking of was longer, and a conversation in
Society for Creative Anachronism was involved. It had the flavor of
not thinking dualistically in terms of good or bad, of deciding for
the better of two GOOD choices after, of course, ruling out bad ideas
or things you don't want or directions you don't want to go in.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and I was thinking about buying a foot pedal to transcribe it off (a play/pause pedal for my computer).
now if I could just find that page on her
website that talks about making the better choice. I found a shorter
version which I also like:
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice
The original version I'm thinking of was longer, and a conversation in
Society for Creative Anachronism was involved. It had the flavor of
not thinking dualistically in terms of good or bad, of deciding for
the better of two GOOD choices after, of course, ruling out bad ideas
or things you don't want or directions you don't want to go in.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
Yeah, many a times while watching the children relate to their grandparents,
in my mind I was still judging "my parents". To understand that their's is a
separate relationship and trusting my child's capacity to love and feel
separately from me has helped me a lot.
Of course the questions about unschooling and our way of being comes up in
the child-grandparent relationship, but I see how the children handle those
questions pretty well without "losing it" the way I used to. The kids
normally just say "we do it this way".
I also like this quote about being the center of ones' own universe. I also
realised that the grandparents are a small part of my children's universe.
They relate to those parts pretty comfortably and confidently now. I feel
that is happening because they feel centered and rooted in the choices we
have been making as a family.
Dola
in my mind I was still judging "my parents". To understand that their's is a
separate relationship and trusting my child's capacity to love and feel
separately from me has helped me a lot.
Of course the questions about unschooling and our way of being comes up in
the child-grandparent relationship, but I see how the children handle those
questions pretty well without "losing it" the way I used to. The kids
normally just say "we do it this way".
I also like this quote about being the center of ones' own universe. I also
realised that the grandparents are a small part of my children's universe.
They relate to those parts pretty comfortably and confidently now. I feel
that is happening because they feel centered and rooted in the choices we
have been making as a family.
Dola
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 AM, Krisula Moyer <krisula@...>wrote:
>
>
> Sandra wrote:
> >>>Alex is the center of his own universe, but not the center of his
> grandfather's universe.
> Alex is a small part of his grandfather's universe, and being grateful for
> that intersection would be better than trying to define and control it.<<<
>
> This is a gem. When I replace "Alex and his grandfather" with my child (or
> myself) and the other people in our lives the gratitude I feel for those
> relationships comes into sharp focus. Thank you.
>
> Krisula
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]