I'm not a radical unschooler unless I let my children throw rocks
Sylvia Toyama
Like Pam, I find myself looking other words to describe how we live. In my recent conversations, and sadly in my own community, there have peen people who call themselves radical unschoolers, and defend their own choices to never give their child any social advice for example, as being what defines radical unschooling. It's a level of detachment I'm not comfortable with, one that has resulted in my kids and other kids I know and love being victimized, while the parent of the offender stood by and did nothing. We've been fortunate in that eventually the other child's inability to be kind to my children has led to my children wanting less time with that child, until the friendships quietly died out. It saddens me because I wonder when and how those children will figure out how to keep friendships and build relationships, with virtually no guidance, advice or insight into how people want to be treated.
I was never really attached to the term radical unschooler, so I'm okay with letting others have it. We unschool and parent as we do because kindness and respect for others are important to us. Most of my parenting philosophies predate unschooling in our lives, so I don't feel any need to explain our lifestyle as being part and parcel of unschooling.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was never really attached to the term radical unschooler, so I'm okay with letting others have it. We unschool and parent as we do because kindness and respect for others are important to us. Most of my parenting philosophies predate unschooling in our lives, so I don't feel any need to explain our lifestyle as being part and parcel of unschooling.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubixscuba
as a n00b, i'd love to hear a bit more about this because i agree there is a misconception "out there" about unschooling parents being too hands off and borderline negligent as they let their kids run amok with no regard for their safety or that of others or anyone's property.
===there have peen people who call themselves radical unschoolers, and defend their own choices to never give their child any social advice for example, as being what defines radical unschooling. It's a level of detachment I'm not comfortable with, one that has resulted in my kids and other kids I know and love being victimized, while the parent of the offender stood by and did nothing.===
i have seen the above in my community too, although i do not know if the parents thought they were "radical unschoolers" or it they were just so checked out or confused or strive to be non-authoritarian that they didn't intervene in the situation.
on the other hand, i often see parents rightfully intervene, but in ways that i find disturbing. for example, a personal situation i have had to figure out is how to handle sharing. i often see parents grabbing a toy that their child grabbed out of another child's hands while saying "don't grab," ie sending mixed messages and forcing kids to share perhaps before the child is developmentally really ready for it.
another example is a parent threatening some random consequence if the child does not comply with whatever the parent says (which can be completely reasonable, such as "don't hit other kids," but then there is a threatening element of "or else....").
i'd love to hear some thoughts on how an unschooling parent would handle these kinds of situations.
===We unschool and parent as we do because kindness and respect for others are important to us.===
phew, what a relief! i really liked reading this!
i think i understand the idea behind living by principles, as opposed to rules. a principle would be safety and kindness, for example. that would be something the unschooled child would learn by observing the parent being safe and kind and keeping property safe from harm, yes? of course the child doesn't learn all of this "right away," but the parent knows learning involves making mistakes and is OK with that (as opposed to thinking mistakes must be corrected by punitive measures).
so here is where i get confused:
the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to at peace and safe in the world. what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer about how to be safe and kind? i assume it won't be "rules" such as "don't grab," "don't hit," "don't destroy other people's stuff" etc and of course it won't be said in an "or else" kind of way that carries with it threats of punishments... i also assume a connected parent won't decide to keep silent and let their child hurt someone else and thereby learn by "natural consequences" that they should be kind or they might lose all their friends.
in the example i gave above, about sharing, i have personally handled it by acknowledging that sharing a special toy can be hard, to which my daughter has usually nodded her head "yes." if the other parent is close by i try to let them know too that we are working on sharing still. usually taking the pressure off my child helps and she will share after a few moments, but sometimes it doens't. sometimes we might try to brainstorm some ideas together and pick one that seems to work (like let's put the toy away for later, or why don't you pick out a toy that you do want to share, or let's use a timer and take turns so it's fair). sometimes that works and sometimes not. sometimes we just rely on our friends to be forgiving and hope that the next time things will go smoother.
what do you think? i'd love to read stuff about how children learn manners, kindness, safety and respect for other people's property.
thanks,
--rebecca
===there have peen people who call themselves radical unschoolers, and defend their own choices to never give their child any social advice for example, as being what defines radical unschooling. It's a level of detachment I'm not comfortable with, one that has resulted in my kids and other kids I know and love being victimized, while the parent of the offender stood by and did nothing.===
i have seen the above in my community too, although i do not know if the parents thought they were "radical unschoolers" or it they were just so checked out or confused or strive to be non-authoritarian that they didn't intervene in the situation.
on the other hand, i often see parents rightfully intervene, but in ways that i find disturbing. for example, a personal situation i have had to figure out is how to handle sharing. i often see parents grabbing a toy that their child grabbed out of another child's hands while saying "don't grab," ie sending mixed messages and forcing kids to share perhaps before the child is developmentally really ready for it.
another example is a parent threatening some random consequence if the child does not comply with whatever the parent says (which can be completely reasonable, such as "don't hit other kids," but then there is a threatening element of "or else....").
i'd love to hear some thoughts on how an unschooling parent would handle these kinds of situations.
===We unschool and parent as we do because kindness and respect for others are important to us.===
phew, what a relief! i really liked reading this!
i think i understand the idea behind living by principles, as opposed to rules. a principle would be safety and kindness, for example. that would be something the unschooled child would learn by observing the parent being safe and kind and keeping property safe from harm, yes? of course the child doesn't learn all of this "right away," but the parent knows learning involves making mistakes and is OK with that (as opposed to thinking mistakes must be corrected by punitive measures).
so here is where i get confused:
the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to at peace and safe in the world. what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer about how to be safe and kind? i assume it won't be "rules" such as "don't grab," "don't hit," "don't destroy other people's stuff" etc and of course it won't be said in an "or else" kind of way that carries with it threats of punishments... i also assume a connected parent won't decide to keep silent and let their child hurt someone else and thereby learn by "natural consequences" that they should be kind or they might lose all their friends.
in the example i gave above, about sharing, i have personally handled it by acknowledging that sharing a special toy can be hard, to which my daughter has usually nodded her head "yes." if the other parent is close by i try to let them know too that we are working on sharing still. usually taking the pressure off my child helps and she will share after a few moments, but sometimes it doens't. sometimes we might try to brainstorm some ideas together and pick one that seems to work (like let's put the toy away for later, or why don't you pick out a toy that you do want to share, or let's use a timer and take turns so it's fair). sometimes that works and sometimes not. sometimes we just rely on our friends to be forgiving and hope that the next time things will go smoother.
what do you think? i'd love to read stuff about how children learn manners, kindness, safety and respect for other people's property.
thanks,
--rebecca
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2011, at 5:33 AM, rubixscuba wrote:
trying to meet it. They just don't have the tools yet so be there to
be their tool. The more you can anticipate and head off, the fewer
tense moments you'll need to negotiate between you.
Be your child's partner in finding respectful, kind, safe ways of
getting what they want. They'll absorb how you handle it. And slowly
build up an understanding.
Getting something from someone else is a complex process! They offer
college degrees in it. And, even with adult experience, there are
countries and groups that people can't figure out how to help
peacefully coexist. People have been telling others not to make war --
at least in a big way -- since 1960s. It hasn't worked yet! Because
"don't do that" doesn't help them with what to do instead.
From the child's point of view what they want is right there just a
stone's throw away from them. The only problem is there's a chasm and
an about to collapse bridge (called "hitting" and "grabbing") between
them and it that they've been told not to use. The second problem is
that the route -- of principles -- you've lead them on in the past
heads off in the wrong direction with lots of confusing turns before
it gets to the destination. Kids need lots of help negotiating the
indirect path before they have confidence that it's something they
understand and can do themselves. If you're not there to help, is it
surprising if a child chooses the direct but forbidden route?
use your principles as tools to help them get what they want. And when
you use your principles in how you treat them.
Kids who are treated kindly treat others kindly (when they're
developmentally able). Kids who are treated unkindly and made to be
kind to others will feel resentful that kindness is being withheld
from them and given to a stranger.
you want your child to learn. *Live* your principles. Put your
principles into practice. Use them as tools to help kids get what they
want. Use them to keep them safe. Use them in your treatment of them.
Yes, stop them when they're being unkind to someone else but see their
behavior as communication. *Assume* the child is doing the best they
can. And if their best could be better -- sometimes *way* better in
the case of hitting! ;-) -- then they need help. Focus on the need
they were trying to meet and meet it in a way that is in keeping with
your principles.
of learning -- absorbing bit by bit -- from living.
in him that must be crushed for fear of it growing. Focus on what to
do instead. Yes, stop the hitting and grabbing but then move on to
helping.
back, should I talk to you about sharing?
Sharing is greatly overrated! And if a child doesn't have a choice on
whether someone can use their things, it's not sharing. It's letting
people walk all over you ;-)
If it's not her toy but belongs to a community playspace, I would ask
my daughter if she didn't mind letting the other child use it. Or if
there was something she would let them play with. I'd reassure my
daughter or the other child that they'd be done soon and it would be
free. (Though you need to be mighty certain that's true! Mostly Kat
played at a Children's Museum so no one ever did spend more than a few
minutes with any particular toy.)
If the playing is at her house, it would be respectful to help her
decide before hand what can be played with and what can't and only
bring out the toys she doesn't mind others using. If she decides mid
play that something isn't for sharing, then put that away for her. If
she's too young and wants to play with it but not let anyone else,
then it's snack time :-) Or break out something else that's even more
drawing. Distraction is a good tool :-)
Joyce
> on the other hand, i often see parents rightfully intervene, but inThe first step is being more present. The child has a need and is
> ways that i find disturbing. for example, a personal situation i
> have had to figure out is how to handle sharing. i often see parents
> grabbing a toy that their child grabbed out of another child's hands
> while saying "don't grab," ie sending mixed messages and forcing
> kids to share perhaps before the child is developmentally really
> ready for it.
>
> another example is a parent threatening some random consequence if
> the child does not comply with whatever the parent says (which can
> be completely reasonable, such as "don't hit other kids," but then
> there is a threatening element of "or else....").
>
> i'd love to hear some thoughts on how an unschooling parent would
> handle these kinds of situations.
trying to meet it. They just don't have the tools yet so be there to
be their tool. The more you can anticipate and head off, the fewer
tense moments you'll need to negotiate between you.
Be your child's partner in finding respectful, kind, safe ways of
getting what they want. They'll absorb how you handle it. And slowly
build up an understanding.
Getting something from someone else is a complex process! They offer
college degrees in it. And, even with adult experience, there are
countries and groups that people can't figure out how to help
peacefully coexist. People have been telling others not to make war --
at least in a big way -- since 1960s. It hasn't worked yet! Because
"don't do that" doesn't help them with what to do instead.
From the child's point of view what they want is right there just a
stone's throw away from them. The only problem is there's a chasm and
an about to collapse bridge (called "hitting" and "grabbing") between
them and it that they've been told not to use. The second problem is
that the route -- of principles -- you've lead them on in the past
heads off in the wrong direction with lots of confusing turns before
it gets to the destination. Kids need lots of help negotiating the
indirect path before they have confidence that it's something they
understand and can do themselves. If you're not there to help, is it
surprising if a child chooses the direct but forbidden route?
> a principle would be safety and kindness, for example. that would beA bit but not in a big meaningful way. They'll learn the most when you
> something the unschooled child would learn by observing the parent
> being safe and kind and keeping property safe from harm, yes?
use your principles as tools to help them get what they want. And when
you use your principles in how you treat them.
Kids who are treated kindly treat others kindly (when they're
developmentally able). Kids who are treated unkindly and made to be
kind to others will feel resentful that kindness is being withheld
from them and given to a stranger.
> so here is where i get confused:Stop right there. That's where you're confused! Let go of the lessons
> the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to
> at peace and safe in the world.
you want your child to learn. *Live* your principles. Put your
principles into practice. Use them as tools to help kids get what they
want. Use them to keep them safe. Use them in your treatment of them.
Yes, stop them when they're being unkind to someone else but see their
behavior as communication. *Assume* the child is doing the best they
can. And if their best could be better -- sometimes *way* better in
the case of hitting! ;-) -- then they need help. Focus on the need
they were trying to meet and meet it in a way that is in keeping with
your principles.
> what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer aboutMy advice is to stop thinking in terms of lessons! :-) Think in terms
> how to be safe and kind?
of learning -- absorbing bit by bit -- from living.
> i assume it won't be "rules" such as "don't grab," "don't hit,"Instead of focusing on what not to do and assuming the child has evil
> "don't destroy other people's stuff" etc
in him that must be crushed for fear of it growing. Focus on what to
do instead. Yes, stop the hitting and grabbing but then move on to
helping.
> in the example i gave above, about sharing, i have personallyIf a stranger started rooting around in your purse, and you grabbed it
> handled it by acknowledging that sharing a special toy can be hard,
> to which my daughter has usually nodded her head "yes."
back, should I talk to you about sharing?
Sharing is greatly overrated! And if a child doesn't have a choice on
whether someone can use their things, it's not sharing. It's letting
people walk all over you ;-)
If it's not her toy but belongs to a community playspace, I would ask
my daughter if she didn't mind letting the other child use it. Or if
there was something she would let them play with. I'd reassure my
daughter or the other child that they'd be done soon and it would be
free. (Though you need to be mighty certain that's true! Mostly Kat
played at a Children's Museum so no one ever did spend more than a few
minutes with any particular toy.)
If the playing is at her house, it would be respectful to help her
decide before hand what can be played with and what can't and only
bring out the toys she doesn't mind others using. If she decides mid
play that something isn't for sharing, then put that away for her. If
she's too young and wants to play with it but not let anyone else,
then it's snack time :-) Or break out something else that's even more
drawing. Distraction is a good tool :-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-sometimes we might try to brainstorm some ideas together and pick one that seems to work (like let's put the toy away for later, or why don't you pick out a toy that you do want to share, or let's use a timer and take turns so it's fair).-=-
Timers don't create fairness. If one child loves a toy and another kid only barely likes it, ten minutes each isn't fair at all! :-)
When kids were coming over, or when we were going to the park, we would look for toys that *needed* sharing. Long jump ropes, or frisbees or balls, for older kids. Sand toys or sets of more-than-one of whatever for younger kids.
-=-the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to at peace and safe in the world. what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer about how to be safe and kind?-=-
It depends on the situation and the child.
"It would be kinder to..." or "I'm afraid if you do X someone could get hurt, so how about..."
-=- sometimes we just rely on our friends to be forgiving and hope that the next time things will go smoother. -=-
In extreme cases, people can run out of friends.
It's not necessarily kind or safe to rely on friends to be forgiving. Sometimes it isn't fair. :-)
But you did say "sometimes," and most things are forgivable. The extreme cases are when people "trust" or rely on other unschoolers to accept just ANYthing their kids do. That's not good for kids, friends or friendship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Timers don't create fairness. If one child loves a toy and another kid only barely likes it, ten minutes each isn't fair at all! :-)
When kids were coming over, or when we were going to the park, we would look for toys that *needed* sharing. Long jump ropes, or frisbees or balls, for older kids. Sand toys or sets of more-than-one of whatever for younger kids.
-=-the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to at peace and safe in the world. what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer about how to be safe and kind?-=-
It depends on the situation and the child.
"It would be kinder to..." or "I'm afraid if you do X someone could get hurt, so how about..."
-=- sometimes we just rely on our friends to be forgiving and hope that the next time things will go smoother. -=-
In extreme cases, people can run out of friends.
It's not necessarily kind or safe to rely on friends to be forgiving. Sometimes it isn't fair. :-)
But you did say "sometimes," and most things are forgivable. The extreme cases are when people "trust" or rely on other unschoolers to accept just ANYthing their kids do. That's not good for kids, friends or friendship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to
you want your child to learn.-=-
But she didn't say "wants to teach them."
I TOTALLY wanted to help my children learn how to live safely and peacefully in the real world, and with each other, and with themselves.
We did this:
-=-*Live* your principles. Put your
principles into practice. Use them as tools to help kids get what they
want. Use them to keep them safe. Use them in your treatment of them.-=-
And we did this:
-=-Yes, stop them when they're being unkind to someone else but see their
behavior as communication. *Assume* the child is doing the best they
can. And if their best could be better -- sometimes *way* better in
the case of hitting! ;-) -- then they need help. Focus on the need
they were trying to meet and meet it in a way that is in keeping with
your principles.-=-
I didn't think of it as lessons I wanted them to learn. I thought of it as helping them figure out how to move more smoothly through the social waters.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> at peace and safe in the world.-=-Stop right there. That's where you're confused! Let go of the lessons
you want your child to learn.-=-
But she didn't say "wants to teach them."
I TOTALLY wanted to help my children learn how to live safely and peacefully in the real world, and with each other, and with themselves.
We did this:
-=-*Live* your principles. Put your
principles into practice. Use them as tools to help kids get what they
want. Use them to keep them safe. Use them in your treatment of them.-=-
And we did this:
-=-Yes, stop them when they're being unkind to someone else but see their
behavior as communication. *Assume* the child is doing the best they
can. And if their best could be better -- sometimes *way* better in
the case of hitting! ;-) -- then they need help. Focus on the need
they were trying to meet and meet it in a way that is in keeping with
your principles.-=-
I didn't think of it as lessons I wanted them to learn. I thought of it as helping them figure out how to move more smoothly through the social waters.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
stuck. "Help them learn" gets translated in my head into "teach".
Maybe it's engineering type thinking. The fastest most efficient path
between not knowing and knowing is (seemingly!) teaching. "Here's the
knowledge. Now you know." The problem is, it doesn't work if the child
isn't .
It helped me think more clearly about how to help her learn by
trusting Kathryn would get to my destination if I focused on helping
her with better ways to get to her destination.
But the message to help them learn needs out there.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Stop right there. That's where you're confused! Let go of theYou're right she didn't. See, even after all this time I'm still
> lessons
> you want your child to learn.-=-
>
> But she didn't say "wants to teach them."
>
> I TOTALLY wanted to help my children learn how to live safely and
> peacefully in the real world, and with each other, and with
> themselves.
stuck. "Help them learn" gets translated in my head into "teach".
Maybe it's engineering type thinking. The fastest most efficient path
between not knowing and knowing is (seemingly!) teaching. "Here's the
knowledge. Now you know." The problem is, it doesn't work if the child
isn't .
It helped me think more clearly about how to help her learn by
trusting Kathryn would get to my destination if I focused on helping
her with better ways to get to her destination.
But the message to help them learn needs out there.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"rubixscuba" <rebecca@...> wrote:
It's very situational! And that's probably one of the most important things to keep in mind about unschooling ;)
If a child has trouble having other people play with his or her toys, then it can help to have playdates elsewhere - "neutral territory" is a good way to avert a number of different social issues related to personal space/possessiveness. Of course, that doesn't work so well with siblings! Then it can help to make, say, the living room "neutral territory" and use bedrooms or other spaces for special toys or games.
The biggest issue parents run into with sharing is that parents get hung up on ideas of "fairness" and confusing them with reciprcation and equality. Happiness and peace are better goals than fairness in that sense.
Offering advice isn't a great strategy unless your child is specifically asking for some. Its better to look for ways to help: "let me help you do that safely". Or offer help in an arguement "can I help?"
But mostly I find that the kinder and more thoughtful I am to my kids, the kinder and more thoughful they are, too. Not just "in the long run" but in small day to day things. If my kids are getting snappish, I do an attitude check - for myself I mean. Am I snapping and snarling? Changing my own mindset can go a long way to creating harmony in the house.
---Meredith
>a personal situation i have had to figure out is how to handle sharing.*************
It's very situational! And that's probably one of the most important things to keep in mind about unschooling ;)
If a child has trouble having other people play with his or her toys, then it can help to have playdates elsewhere - "neutral territory" is a good way to avert a number of different social issues related to personal space/possessiveness. Of course, that doesn't work so well with siblings! Then it can help to make, say, the living room "neutral territory" and use bedrooms or other spaces for special toys or games.
The biggest issue parents run into with sharing is that parents get hung up on ideas of "fairness" and confusing them with reciprcation and equality. Happiness and peace are better goals than fairness in that sense.
> another example is a parent threatening some random consequence...Wait, do you mean you want to know how to handle other parents? That's a whole 'nother ball of wax. If they aren't threatening your child, then intervening is something to be done very very carefully. Did you see the thread on intervening about spanking? The same sort of advice would apply - you can't teach other parents what they don't want to know, but you *can* look for ways to be kind and thoughtful.
> so here is where i get confused:*************
> the caring unschooling parent wants to help their child learn how to at peace and safe in the world. what kind of social advice can the unschooling parent offer about how to be safe and kind?
Offering advice isn't a great strategy unless your child is specifically asking for some. Its better to look for ways to help: "let me help you do that safely". Or offer help in an arguement "can I help?"
But mostly I find that the kinder and more thoughtful I am to my kids, the kinder and more thoughful they are, too. Not just "in the long run" but in small day to day things. If my kids are getting snappish, I do an attitude check - for myself I mean. Am I snapping and snarling? Changing my own mindset can go a long way to creating harmony in the house.
---Meredith
catfish_friend
On Feb 15, 2011, at 2:33 AM, "rubixscuba" <rebecca@...> wrote:
/////*\\\\\
> on the other hand, i often see parents rightfully intervene, but in ways that i find disturbing. for example, a personal situation i have had to figure out is how to handle sharing. i often see parents grabbing a toy that their child grabbed out of another child's hands while saying "don't grab," ie sending mixed messages and forcing kids to share perhaps before the child is developmentally really ready for it.
/////*\\\\\
On sharing -- what I've come to recognize is that when I want my children to share, what I'm really hoping is that they will learn to show empathy. With that in mind, I do my best to show empathy when the kids are having a conflict over a toy. Showing empathy in those situations may look different in different situations. Sometimes, I try to express empathy for both kids while verbalizing what I am observing -- "It looks like you really want the ball! She has the ball and is holding on to it and wouldn't give it to you." depending on the ages of the kids, their age difference, their familiarity with each other, it would totally affect how I would respond. If there's time and space for it, I might ask the kids if they had any ideas for how they'd like to resolve the conflict. If there were a similar object nearby I might point it out in case one of them were interested in it.
With toddlers within a group of kids who regularly see each other, I have let it play out but while being close by -- really right next to them. I have seen more than once a child take the initiative to share or show empathy by bringing other toys to the disappointed child even without prompting. But, this sometimes took months of one child consistently not sharing and watching other kids cry. In the group of toddlers who met weekly, he was the first to show empathy by bringing, one by one, every ball from the opposite corner of the room to the crying child who wanted the ball the first child was playing with. This of course, only transpired because the parents had all agreed philosophically to allow the toddlers to take from each other, to NOT share, with the understanding that when you stop the taking, you don't allow the giving to spring up from within.
To be honest, until I saw that first expression of empathy in a pre-verbal toddler, I was going on faith that it could happen. I am so grateful I trusted that it was possible, because when it did happen, it made it remarkably clear and real that little young lives are capable of empathy and if that was true, what else are they capable of???
Peace,
Ceci Hyoun
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
And yet another positive reason to keep cookies around!
Michelle
Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (9), Eli (6), and Oliver (18 mo)
If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher
>From: catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...>Yes! I'm remembering now my 1yo eating a cookie...he looked up at me, broke it, and gave me half. No one had ever made him do that...but we're human beings, looking for positive connection all the time. He'd seen us share with him and liked it. Just basic modeling of kindness and the warm fuzzy feeling you get from it. : )
>To be honest, until I saw that first expression of empathy in a pre-verbal toddler, I was going on faith that it could happen. I am so grateful I trusted that it was possible, because when it did happen, it made it remarkably clear and real that little young lives are capable of empathy and if that was true, what else are they capable of???
>
And yet another positive reason to keep cookies around!
Michelle
Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (9), Eli (6), and Oliver (18 mo)
If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher
Sandra Dodd
-=-This of course, only transpired because the parents had all agreed philosophically to allow the toddlers to take from each other, to NOT share, with the understanding that when you stop the taking, you don't allow the giving to spring up from within.-=-
There can be a problem with a group where "the parents all agree" about something like how to speak to children, and to allow toddlers to grab without sharing.
That would be the "understanding" that when you allow grabbing, all the children will come to equal understandings, as though they will all agree philosophically to allow giving to spring up from within.
My children are very generous, with their things, their time and their money. They didn't get there by my allowing a group of other mothers to tell me to let other kids grab things away from them. They got there each in their own ways, from parents being generous with them, and by parents helping them feel safe with their things and their early possessiveness. If someone feels that what they have can be taken away, they're more likely to become possessive and clinging than they are to become generous.
I do believe it's true that unless children have choices they can't *make* choices. If I had forced or pressed my children to be generous, they could not have chosen to be generous. If I had given them no choice by allowing other to take from them, that's about the same as pressing them to be generous, only there would've been crying and frustration and confusion, the same as if I had told them NOT to let anyone take things from them.
For years we were one of or the only lead family in a weekly gathering, which started in parks and ended up, in the last year and a half, to often meet in our house. Before the other kids came over, my kids put their favorite things away, and brought out things they were willing to share. For a while, Marty barricaded his room from within, and exited through a window, to make sure no one could get in there. When we went to a park, we only took what we were willing to share.
-=-With toddlers within a group of kids who regularly see each other, I have let it play out but while being close by -- really right next to them. I have seen more than once a child take the initiative to share or show empathy by bringing other toys to the disappointed child even without prompting. -=-
I've seen it hundreds of times, and in teens, too, who leave a fun situation to comfort someone who felt excluded or forgotten.
-=-But, this sometimes took months of one child consistently not sharing and watching other kids cry.-=-
I was never willing to allow my child to cry in order for another child to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
I was never willing to allow my child to watch other kids cry in order to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There can be a problem with a group where "the parents all agree" about something like how to speak to children, and to allow toddlers to grab without sharing.
That would be the "understanding" that when you allow grabbing, all the children will come to equal understandings, as though they will all agree philosophically to allow giving to spring up from within.
My children are very generous, with their things, their time and their money. They didn't get there by my allowing a group of other mothers to tell me to let other kids grab things away from them. They got there each in their own ways, from parents being generous with them, and by parents helping them feel safe with their things and their early possessiveness. If someone feels that what they have can be taken away, they're more likely to become possessive and clinging than they are to become generous.
I do believe it's true that unless children have choices they can't *make* choices. If I had forced or pressed my children to be generous, they could not have chosen to be generous. If I had given them no choice by allowing other to take from them, that's about the same as pressing them to be generous, only there would've been crying and frustration and confusion, the same as if I had told them NOT to let anyone take things from them.
For years we were one of or the only lead family in a weekly gathering, which started in parks and ended up, in the last year and a half, to often meet in our house. Before the other kids came over, my kids put their favorite things away, and brought out things they were willing to share. For a while, Marty barricaded his room from within, and exited through a window, to make sure no one could get in there. When we went to a park, we only took what we were willing to share.
-=-With toddlers within a group of kids who regularly see each other, I have let it play out but while being close by -- really right next to them. I have seen more than once a child take the initiative to share or show empathy by bringing other toys to the disappointed child even without prompting. -=-
I've seen it hundreds of times, and in teens, too, who leave a fun situation to comfort someone who felt excluded or forgotten.
-=-But, this sometimes took months of one child consistently not sharing and watching other kids cry.-=-
I was never willing to allow my child to cry in order for another child to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
I was never willing to allow my child to watch other kids cry in order to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
On Feb 20, 2011, at 6:15 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
----=----
> I was never willing to allow my child to cry in order for another child to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
> I was never willing to allow my child to watch other kids cry in order to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
----=----
In the weekly group I was in, the kids and at least one of each of their parents came once a week from roughly 5mos of age until they were nearly 3 years old. "Allowing" a child to cry was not a rule, but a reality of what happened sometimes whether it was over an item two kids wanted, a fall or for any other number of reasons. While I tried to describe the approach to dealing with sharing (or lack thereof) or even grabbing, my picture is incomplete.
The group spent much time observing and discussing what to do or say in different situations. Observing and thoughtfully responding after waiting a moment, allowed a child room and time and space to cry and to actually feel for herself the emotion before being picked up. Observing and responding thoughtfully put the parents in the habit of being more mindful and aware of the child's needs in the moment (i.e. Suzy's fragile today because she was up all night with teething pain and is not rested so I'm staying near her and going to keep her feeling safe today -- this would include anyone taking her toys).
To be clear, it was not a hard and fast rule to let kids just take whatever whenever from whomever. It also was not a situation that was untended or unmoderated. The best choices were not always made, in my opinion, but as a group, we tried to operate out of respect for the children and make choices accordingly. We worked hard to really learn to observe and refrain from projecting what we thought was happening. At the early stages of toddlers giving and taking toys, without intervention, projection or reaction from the parents, we collectively observed that sometimes giving or taking something is not at all about possession, but as a way to communicate a need or a want to connect with another. Of course, sometimes it was about the toy. I learned that a child may be crying over a toy for a myriad of reasons, sometimes having nothing to do with the toy or even the person taking the toy. I also learned that sometimes, it's just a mystery.
I began to also see that emotions are really tricky to deal with in little ones when the parent (myself!) is still sorting out things like boundaries.
But back to Sandra's quote -- I don't think I am able to "allow" crying over a sharing conflict. I just think it happens sometimes. It never felt right to try to protect kids from all the bumps and bruises that might befall them -- whether literally or figuratively. I could be like a guard and try to protect my little ones from ever having a reason to cry, but I felt that would be disingenuous as I will not always be there. I decided it was more respectful to allow my children to experience the not-so-great feelings like disappointment when something was taken from them or not shared with them but be near by to comfort them if that's what they wanted. I could not make another child (or person) share and while this might be a huge disappointment, it also meant that when my child did not want to share, I would not make her share.
We do try to keep things at home in private places that are just for personal use and we also do not take things to the park or another person's house unless we are willing to share them.
Crying for us is not a justified means of teaching empathy, but a reality of a full emotional life. I hope that empathy might be the fruit borne of experiencing disappointment and crying -- whether in oneself or another, but I did not mean to say that crying should be allowed to happen for the sake of teaching empathy.
Ceci
catfish_friend
Thank you, Sandra, for explaining this:
On Feb 20, 2011, at 6:15 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-----::-----
> They got there each in their own ways, from parents being generous with them, and by parents helping them feel safe with their things and their early possessiveness. If someone feels that what they have can be taken away, they're more likely to become possessive and clinging than they are to become generous.
-----::-----
The parents' active role in being generous makes sense to me. This group I was in was held in a place where the toys were there ahead of time and were for all to use, but in a first-come, first-served kind of way. Before learning about radical unschooling, while it seemed clear that parenting has a huge impact on the child's development, only recently and I making the connection between what kind of parenting will raise a confident, happy and hopefully loving child!
And, it seems so simple in theory...in reading about it, but in practice, it's clear to me that it will take time to really get it down...!
Ceci
Jenny Cyphers
***Crying for us is not a justified means of teaching empathy, but a reality of
a full emotional life. I hope that empathy might be the fruit borne of
experiencing disappointment and crying***
When one of my kids cry, I remember that song from "Free To Be You And Me", I
think it's called, "It's Alright To Cry". In the lyrics it says "it's alright
to cry, crying gets the sad out of you".
So, when my kids have been sad about something, or frustrated or angry, I
remembered that song. Since I know they are sad or frustrated or angry, I come
to the rescue and give them that soft place to get the sad out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a full emotional life. I hope that empathy might be the fruit borne of
experiencing disappointment and crying***
When one of my kids cry, I remember that song from "Free To Be You And Me", I
think it's called, "It's Alright To Cry". In the lyrics it says "it's alright
to cry, crying gets the sad out of you".
So, when my kids have been sad about something, or frustrated or angry, I
remembered that song. Since I know they are sad or frustrated or angry, I come
to the rescue and give them that soft place to get the sad out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 20, 2011, at 7:34 PM, catfish_friend wrote:
me about how you're worded this. It's all about you, what you want for
your kids, what you think they need.
What do your kids want?
Even better: Do they trust you'll be their comfort and support? Do
they feel you will give them what *they* need in the moment? Or do
they feel you have an agenda that they must fulfill in order to learn
something important about sharing or disappointment or how the world
works?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It never felt right to try to protect kids from all the bumps andI think I know what you're saying, but I think I know what's bugging
> bruises that might befall them -- whether literally or figuratively.
> I could be like a guard and try to protect my little ones from ever
> having a reason to cry, but I felt that would be disingenuous as I
> will not always be there. I decided it was more respectful to allow
> my children to experience the not-so-great feelings like
> disappointment when something was taken from them or not shared with
> them but be near by to comfort them if that's what they wanted.
me about how you're worded this. It's all about you, what you want for
your kids, what you think they need.
What do your kids want?
Even better: Do they trust you'll be their comfort and support? Do
they feel you will give them what *they* need in the moment? Or do
they feel you have an agenda that they must fulfill in order to learn
something important about sharing or disappointment or how the world
works?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel about what Sandra expressed:
That stood out to me so loudly that I had to comment.
Jennifer
> I was never willing to allow my child to cry in order for another child to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.The mere thought of my child crying for months at a play group due to taking and exclusion makes me cringe. So, the giving springs up from within after a few months, but what about the emotional turmoil and pain inflicted on the excluded, crying child? I suppose by the play group logic, the pain and turmoil is just because it's teaching children to live a full emotional life. Somehow, I just don't see how this is necessary at such a young age.
> I was never willing to allow my child to watch other kids cry in order to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
That stood out to me so loudly that I had to comment.
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-This of course, only transpired because the parents had all agreed philosophically to allow the toddlers to take from each other, to NOT share, with the understanding that when you stop the taking, you don't allow the giving to spring up from within.-=-
>
> There can be a problem with a group where "the parents all agree" about something like how to speak to children, and to allow toddlers to grab without sharing.
>
> That would be the "understanding" that when you allow grabbing, all the children will come to equal understandings, as though they will all agree philosophically to allow giving to spring up from within.
>
> My children are very generous, with their things, their time and their money. They didn't get there by my allowing a group of other mothers to tell me to let other kids grab things away from them. They got there each in their own ways, from parents being generous with them, and by parents helping them feel safe with their things and their early possessiveness. If someone feels that what they have can be taken away, they're more likely to become possessive and clinging than they are to become generous.
>
> I do believe it's true that unless children have choices they can't *make* choices. If I had forced or pressed my children to be generous, they could not have chosen to be generous. If I had given them no choice by allowing other to take from them, that's about the same as pressing them to be generous, only there would've been crying and frustration and confusion, the same as if I had told them NOT to let anyone take things from them.
>
> For years we were one of or the only lead family in a weekly gathering, which started in parks and ended up, in the last year and a half, to often meet in our house. Before the other kids came over, my kids put their favorite things away, and brought out things they were willing to share. For a while, Marty barricaded his room from within, and exited through a window, to make sure no one could get in there. When we went to a park, we only took what we were willing to share.
>
> -=-With toddlers within a group of kids who regularly see each other, I have let it play out but while being close by -- really right next to them. I have seen more than once a child take the initiative to share or show empathy by bringing other toys to the disappointed child even without prompting. -=-
>
> I've seen it hundreds of times, and in teens, too, who leave a fun situation to comfort someone who felt excluded or forgotten.
>
> -=-But, this sometimes took months of one child consistently not sharing and watching other kids cry.-=-
>
> I was never willing to allow my child to cry in order for another child to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
> I was never willing to allow my child to watch other kids cry in order to learn empathy. I don't think you should be either.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***And, it seems so simple in theory...in reading about it, but in practice,
it's clear to me that it will take time to really get it down...!***
It's all those little times when you have only one dollar left and you give it
to your kid, or when there is one cookie left and you were just about to pop it
in your mouth and your kid comes merrily in and announces that they want a
cookie, so you give it to them.
It's about saying "yes, sure I can read one more story", even if you are so
sleepy your eyes barely stay open. (plus it makes for an amusing story, trust
me, I say the strangest things when I do that!) It's about making an effort to
think about and create comfort and peace, even if it is something small like
putting a blanket in the dryer and fluffing a pillow on a couch for a kid to
watch a movie.
It's about saying "yes" when you really really want to finally clean some
dishes, and your kid asks to play XYZ with you.
There are so many small generous happy making things that parents can do for
their kids throughout the day, and week, and month and year.
When kids are accustomed to feeling happy and safe and comfortable, they can
move through life knowing that life is happy, safe, and comfortable, and that
even when it sometimes isn't, they can always come home to find it and feel it
again.
I cleaned my oldest daughter's room today. She's been working on it here and
there over the last week and barely making a dent in it. I could tell that she
was really trying to do it and really wanting it done. She really wanted to do
it herself, I offered earlier in the week, and she declined my offer. There
have been too many people over and too many things kept coming up and she just
couldn't get it done. I went in there and spent about an hour. It was pleasant
and I talked to her while she stayed out of my way.
Another girl lives with us right now and shares a room with her. She was in
there too. She said, "my mom has never ever cleaned my room for me. I wish she
had done something nice like this for me, even once." Either one of those girls
could have cleaned that room. They are 16 yrs old. They both made attempts and
did a bit here and there. They both offered to help, but I just had them sit on
their beds and stay out of the way because I could see what needed to happen and
I knew I could make it happen fast.
*** Before learning about radical unschooling, while it seemed clear that
parenting has a huge impact on the child's development, only recently and I
making the connection between what kind of parenting will raise a confident,
happy and hopefully loving child!***
That girl doesn't want to live with her mother. She moved out as soon as she
could. She's a really nice kid, she's pleasant, confident, and kind. So, the
way I see it, sometimes kids will turn out pleasant, confident, and kind even if
their parents aren't so much, but what a shame to lose the relationship. It
might not be forever, but I would hate to think that my actions as a parent
meant losing my kids at the age of 16.
What we do as parents makes a huge difference. It can be relationship building
or it can tear them down. In each and every interaction I have with my kids I
try to keep that in mind, and do things accordingly.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it's clear to me that it will take time to really get it down...!***
It's all those little times when you have only one dollar left and you give it
to your kid, or when there is one cookie left and you were just about to pop it
in your mouth and your kid comes merrily in and announces that they want a
cookie, so you give it to them.
It's about saying "yes, sure I can read one more story", even if you are so
sleepy your eyes barely stay open. (plus it makes for an amusing story, trust
me, I say the strangest things when I do that!) It's about making an effort to
think about and create comfort and peace, even if it is something small like
putting a blanket in the dryer and fluffing a pillow on a couch for a kid to
watch a movie.
It's about saying "yes" when you really really want to finally clean some
dishes, and your kid asks to play XYZ with you.
There are so many small generous happy making things that parents can do for
their kids throughout the day, and week, and month and year.
When kids are accustomed to feeling happy and safe and comfortable, they can
move through life knowing that life is happy, safe, and comfortable, and that
even when it sometimes isn't, they can always come home to find it and feel it
again.
I cleaned my oldest daughter's room today. She's been working on it here and
there over the last week and barely making a dent in it. I could tell that she
was really trying to do it and really wanting it done. She really wanted to do
it herself, I offered earlier in the week, and she declined my offer. There
have been too many people over and too many things kept coming up and she just
couldn't get it done. I went in there and spent about an hour. It was pleasant
and I talked to her while she stayed out of my way.
Another girl lives with us right now and shares a room with her. She was in
there too. She said, "my mom has never ever cleaned my room for me. I wish she
had done something nice like this for me, even once." Either one of those girls
could have cleaned that room. They are 16 yrs old. They both made attempts and
did a bit here and there. They both offered to help, but I just had them sit on
their beds and stay out of the way because I could see what needed to happen and
I knew I could make it happen fast.
*** Before learning about radical unschooling, while it seemed clear that
parenting has a huge impact on the child's development, only recently and I
making the connection between what kind of parenting will raise a confident,
happy and hopefully loving child!***
That girl doesn't want to live with her mother. She moved out as soon as she
could. She's a really nice kid, she's pleasant, confident, and kind. So, the
way I see it, sometimes kids will turn out pleasant, confident, and kind even if
their parents aren't so much, but what a shame to lose the relationship. It
might not be forever, but I would hate to think that my actions as a parent
meant losing my kids at the age of 16.
What we do as parents makes a huge difference. It can be relationship building
or it can tear them down. In each and every interaction I have with my kids I
try to keep that in mind, and do things accordingly.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
Isn't the play group a situation where you are thrusting your child purposefully toward the "bumps and bruises that might befall them"? Some children will cry for months as their toys are yanked from their hands and others will constantly take from the crying children while the parents watch and observe? So a few children learn empathy on their own by comforting the sad child or children, but what about the victimized child or children? I don't see how any of this forced turmoil is beneficial. Sure, life is hard and full of times when you will not be there, but why force this reality on such a small child? I look at it this way: I will never knowingly place my child in a situation that I know beforehand will be negative such as a play group where he will be crying the whole time. He trusts me to support, love and protect him. I don't see how the above type of situation would help our relationship at all. I'm not saying that we should place our children in bubbles, but this seems a tad extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2011, at 7:34 PM, catfish_friend wrote:
>
> > It never felt right to try to protect kids from all the bumps and
> > bruises that might befall them -- whether literally or figuratively.
> > I could be like a guard and try to protect my little ones from ever
> > having a reason to cry, but I felt that would be disingenuous as I
> > will not always be there. I decided it was more respectful to allow
> > my children to experience the not-so-great feelings like
> > disappointment when something was taken from them or not shared with
> > them but be near by to comfort them if that's what they wanted.
>
> I think I know what you're saying, but I think I know what's bugging
> me about how you're worded this. It's all about you, what you want for
> your kids, what you think they need.
>
> What do your kids want?
>
> Even better: Do they trust you'll be their comfort and support? Do
> they feel you will give them what *they* need in the moment? Or do
> they feel you have an agenda that they must fulfill in order to learn
> something important about sharing or disappointment or how the world
> works?
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Crying for us is not a justified means of teaching empathy, but a reality of a full emotional life.-=-
A "full emotional life" could also include terror, horror, bereavement, shame, fright, despair, transcendence, awe, humility, orgasmic focus, flow and some other more obscure things.
When I was a kid I cried several times a week, sometimes so hard it nearly made me puke. When I was young, I cried myself to sleep in a single year more times than all my kids have ever cried put together. My mom was always giving me something to cry about, when I cried.
Life will give people something to cry about, occasionally.
Mothers of toddlers should really NOT band together and vote (or decide by consensus based on one mom's theory that it's a good idea) that hearing others cry will be good for ANYthing.
Life will give people something to cry about. Play groups shouldn't be one of those things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A "full emotional life" could also include terror, horror, bereavement, shame, fright, despair, transcendence, awe, humility, orgasmic focus, flow and some other more obscure things.
When I was a kid I cried several times a week, sometimes so hard it nearly made me puke. When I was young, I cried myself to sleep in a single year more times than all my kids have ever cried put together. My mom was always giving me something to cry about, when I cried.
Life will give people something to cry about, occasionally.
Mothers of toddlers should really NOT band together and vote (or decide by consensus based on one mom's theory that it's a good idea) that hearing others cry will be good for ANYthing.
Life will give people something to cry about. Play groups shouldn't be one of those things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I will never knowingly place my child in a situation that I know beforehand will be negative such as a play group where he will be crying the whole time. He trusts me to support, love and protect him. -=-
I agree with this HUGELY.
From a partnerships model, a playgroup in which the parents "had agreed philosophically" about ANYthing involving those children set the parents against the children, or at least put the parents on a team and the children in another category. Each parent was not her child's partner. She was part of the parental borg of the moment. The children were left as the objects of the experiment or of the substance of the process by which the borg believed empathy would be achieved. But the borg itself was not showing empathy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree with this HUGELY.
From a partnerships model, a playgroup in which the parents "had agreed philosophically" about ANYthing involving those children set the parents against the children, or at least put the parents on a team and the children in another category. Each parent was not her child's partner. She was part of the parental borg of the moment. The children were left as the objects of the experiment or of the substance of the process by which the borg believed empathy would be achieved. But the borg itself was not showing empathy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>the crying children while the parents watch and observe<<<Children really aren't dense. At all. They get it much more clearly
what parents are doing than the parents do, who maybe can't see
themselves very clearly, that they're standing by observing children
as they cry.
I see that just about every time we go to the park playground. It's
not unusual to see parents ignoring their kids as they cry.
The children are observing too. They know you are watching them cry.
That's part of what crying is about. It's a signal for help.
Parents can have their reasons for ignoring the crying, which the kids
don't see and can't see and won't see, even if you tell them. It won't
make sense. Because it doesn't make sense.
~Katherine
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Maybe the children in this play group where really mellow and laid back. If my
son was in a situation like that
he would either scream bloody murder the whole time or he would whack another
kid if they took his toy away.
Young children , very young in this case, need parents right there.
Sure you do not need to intervene in every single thing that happens. You can
let things develop, depending on the child involved, and watch to see how to
respond or not.
My son used to take extra toys to the park so other kids could play. He
loved other kids playing around him.
Both my kids are very good at sharing and helping each other and other kids.
They give presents to each other and other kids.
They are very very giving with their possessions.
Both my kids would have not done well in a situation like the one you described.
I think it would have had the opposite effect..
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
son was in a situation like that
he would either scream bloody murder the whole time or he would whack another
kid if they took his toy away.
Young children , very young in this case, need parents right there.
Sure you do not need to intervene in every single thing that happens. You can
let things develop, depending on the child involved, and watch to see how to
respond or not.
My son used to take extra toys to the park so other kids could play. He
loved other kids playing around him.
Both my kids are very good at sharing and helping each other and other kids.
They give presents to each other and other kids.
They are very very giving with their possessions.
Both my kids would have not done well in a situation like the one you described.
I think it would have had the opposite effect..
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
Thank you, Joyce, for this --
On Feb 21, 2011, at 12:31 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
-----//-----
> I think I know what you're saying, but I think I know what's bugging
> me about how you're worded this. It's all about you, what you want for
> your kids, what you think they need.
>
> What do your kids want?
>
> Even better: Do they trust you'll be their comfort and support? Do
> they feel you will give them what *they* need in the moment? Or do
> they feel you have an agenda that they must fulfill in order to learn
> something important about sharing or disappointment or how the world
> works?
-----//-----
Clearly, I was not practicing radical unschooling when I was in the playgroup mentioned. I had never even heard of unschooling at the time.
I would say that at the time, it was about me. I was not planning on becoming a mother and I wanted some guidance. I had an abusive mother and a neglectful father and was the first child of Korean immigrants who didn't speak English very well. I was not going to raise my daughter the way I was raised, but I didn't know what way was going to replace it. I was practicing attachment parenting -- drug-free, pain-free home birth, extended, on-demand breastfeeding until I couldn't during the pregnancy of the second (it broke my heart and my first-born's, sadly) though I had planned on tandem nursing if the eldest wanted to continue. Our family bed became a room of mattresses side by side. I felt I had poor boundaries, though, with my girls and I wanted to figure out how to have healthier ones.
The playgroup I was in was based on a different philosophy that some have called anti-AP. I suppose I wanted something to challenge me to think about how I was parenting and why. The philosophy of the group suggested raising an authentic, self-confident baby and that appealed to me. I didn't follow their suggestions blindly, but tried on what I thought was beneficial and rejected what I thought was damaging.
My tendency was towards supporting my child's needs at any cost, but the group's philosophy suggested more of a draw-a-line-in-the-sand where the parent has needs kind of approach. Whereas most in the group practiced some form of sleep-training, I never did. Whereas there was a child in the group that cried a lot (he was upset by many things that would not bother other children there) mine happened to be untouched by the drama that sometimes unfolded.
My 4.5 year old emerged from the group an outspoken, articulate, determined, self-confident and affectionate girl. My husband and I had a theory that she came out "strong" because we did maintain more of an attachment parenting approach. He and I believed that she felt more secure in who she was because we were there for her, we never let her cry it out for any reason. If she had a toy taken from her, she was more the type to take it back or immediately come to me or her dad for comfort. The group was generally set up in a way that the parents sat on one side of the room, the kids playing with only one or two adults near them. It may sound ludicrous, but we were attempting as a group to learn by observing the kids play -- the idea was to give them space to explore and intervene when safety might be compromised.
While the responses here seem to suggest that a child would be excluded and picked on for months, that was never the case. There was an alpha male child and there was a boy who cried a lot for many reasons -- it could be because another child came too close to him, but did not even touch him. There was a girl who started to really hit others consistently. The alpha male became the first to show empathy and sharing. The often-crying boy became best friends with the alpha and later took on more alpha traits -- like he was "trying" them on. The girl who hit frequently was asked to be restrained or removed by her mother for both that girl's well-being and for the other kids. When a child cried, the room often fell silent as the parent consoled the child. The other children stopped to see what was happening and the parents stopped any chatting if there was chatting happening. Like I said, we were trying our best to observe the kids, so often we were not treating it like a social hour.
When a child seemed consistently fragile, like the boy who cried frequently, or the one who always wanted his mother to stay near him, these children were protected more by the adults near them or by their mothers.
I am not suggesting this was unschooling, only trying to flesh out the experience I had because it seems by the responses here, some may believe that children were subjected to unnecessary repeated and frequent emotional hardship for the purposes of a few learning empathy. This is not to say that crying never happened or that a child never got a toy taken from her. Patterns of difficulty or challenge were dealt with, usually by prevention.
As for my 4.5 year old -- I think I've always known what she wants -- for her mom and dad to be near her and to provide for her needs and wants. From as early as she could gesture (and do sign language -- sigh if you must, but we used sign language with her as an infant) she has let us know what she needed and wanted. She looked forward to her group and missed it when it was over. While I didn't learn the importance if connection there, I did learn to give my daughter a safe space and the support and freedom to try things for herself. It's why she chose to go down a slide by herself at 10-11 months' age and why at 4 she body boards with glee even when she wipes out. It's why she made heart sponge cakes and wrapped them in fondant for valentines (with her parents' help) and why she just learned to ride a bike without training wheels this week.
Emotionally, I am her safe space. I have tried my best from the beginning of her life to respond immediately to her cries, and later, her requests. With my husband, we have taken nonviolent communication classes and worked on our marriage to improve ourselves, our relationships and our parenting. I've been far from perfect, but I'm learning.
Thanks to learning about unschooling and this list, I am focusing on maintaining the trust and connection with both of my girls. I have been finding that focus to be key to peace and harmony in our home. I only wish I had heard about the benefits of unschooling sooner!
I don't have an agenda (anymore!) but I think my husband still does -- which is based in his fear that we (or that I) am spoiling our girls.
I have a theory that people need to experience being able to have anything they want before they can really figure out what it is that they want (is that kind of part of unschooling?) and I think my husband has not ever experienced that (a product of an unplanned pregnancy of teen parents who were from blue-collar families who then grew up with a severely physically handicapped sister and also a severely bipolar sister). I think that people who don't know what they want are in a less than ideal state. It is harder for my husband to see the girls get so much when he had so little. He thinks he's doing them a favor by being conditional and stern with them. I see him as eroding his relationship with them, but I'm not sure what I can do to help except trade places with him. He's staying at home with them right now while I work...but I digress...
Ceci
catfish_friend
Would people here say that this is unschooling?
On Feb 21, 2011, at 12:44 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
&&&&&&&&&&
> It's all those little times when you have only one dollar left and you give it
> to your kid, or when there is one cookie left and you were just about to pop it
> in your mouth and your kid comes merrily in and announces that they want a
> cookie, so you give it to them.
&&&&&&&&&&
Or, can a parent say, "I was just about to eat this myself. Would you be willing to share it with me?"
I remember loving "The Giving Tree" when I read it as a teenager, but right after becoming a mother, I felt differently about it. Isn't it possible to be giving, loving, without destroying oneself? Giving up a cookie is one thing, but what if you really, REALLY wanted that cookie and giving it was more a sacrifice than a desire to see your child made happy? Would the experienced unschoolers here say that one should always give the cookie selflessly and joyfully?
Ceci
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...> wrote:
Unschooling Versus Unparenting
http://hubpages.com/hub/Unschooling-Versus-Unparenting
It reminded me of something that happened to me recently on another unschooling list - a "radical unschooling" list - when a mother posted a request for help regarding her daughter's lack of reading ability. The daughter was almost 13 and apparently could barely read at all and was very uncomfortable with that in the company of her peers. What the mother asked was, "What would you do?" Since the daughter was apparently now thoroughly miserable with this ongoing situation and her mother was becoming increasingly anxious because her daughter was so miserable, it seemed to me that the real issue was happiness not reading, so I wrote that what I would do was set myself the goal of helping my daughter develop her reading ability to a sufficient degree that she would be comfortable in the company of her peers and I would respect my daughter's self-authority by finding a way to do so that she was agreeable to. I thought that was a reasonable response and it is what I would do, so I was only answering the question asked. My reply was moderated out and not published. The mother got the same advice from a number of other people, which was to wait and do nothing because the daughter would catch up to her peers with her reading eventually.
I unsubscribed from the list.
I appreciate that my views on reading are not totally in harmony with the views of many other unschoolers, so I'm curious to know what others here would have done in that mother's circumstances; and also I'm wondering if anybody here has had the experience of having a reply to a "radical unschooling" list simply ignored.
Bob
>I just encountered this article online, which may be of interest.
> Like Pam, I find myself looking other words to describe how we live. In my recent conversations, and sadly in my own community, there have been people who call themselves radical unschoolers, and defend their own choices to never give their child any social advice for example, as being what defines radical unschooling.
Unschooling Versus Unparenting
http://hubpages.com/hub/Unschooling-Versus-Unparenting
It reminded me of something that happened to me recently on another unschooling list - a "radical unschooling" list - when a mother posted a request for help regarding her daughter's lack of reading ability. The daughter was almost 13 and apparently could barely read at all and was very uncomfortable with that in the company of her peers. What the mother asked was, "What would you do?" Since the daughter was apparently now thoroughly miserable with this ongoing situation and her mother was becoming increasingly anxious because her daughter was so miserable, it seemed to me that the real issue was happiness not reading, so I wrote that what I would do was set myself the goal of helping my daughter develop her reading ability to a sufficient degree that she would be comfortable in the company of her peers and I would respect my daughter's self-authority by finding a way to do so that she was agreeable to. I thought that was a reasonable response and it is what I would do, so I was only answering the question asked. My reply was moderated out and not published. The mother got the same advice from a number of other people, which was to wait and do nothing because the daughter would catch up to her peers with her reading eventually.
I unsubscribed from the list.
I appreciate that my views on reading are not totally in harmony with the views of many other unschoolers, so I'm curious to know what others here would have done in that mother's circumstances; and also I'm wondering if anybody here has had the experience of having a reply to a "radical unschooling" list simply ignored.
Bob
rainas_family
Hi everyone,
I just want to say how much I've appreciated this list over the years. I've learned a great deal about many ways people can misunderstand unschooling and have seen great ways to articulate how unschooling works.
This thread is a great example of that. Last year my family went to the Rethinking Everything conference in Texas. This was our very first trip to be around other unschoolers and we were so excited. We lasted for 2 days before we ran out of patience with all the children who were bullies, rude, unsafe etc. I was often the only parent around a group of half a dozen young kids throwing legos, taking legos from my son, and causing mayhem. I saw toddlers walking around without adults around pools. The list goes on and on. It was a shock to me to see such a different perspective than what I read about here.
Before that trip, I didn't know there was a different kind of unschooling. I wonder if other unschooling conferences are like the one in Texas or if there's one where the families are more like mine and the ones described on this list.
Dana
I just want to say how much I've appreciated this list over the years. I've learned a great deal about many ways people can misunderstand unschooling and have seen great ways to articulate how unschooling works.
This thread is a great example of that. Last year my family went to the Rethinking Everything conference in Texas. This was our very first trip to be around other unschoolers and we were so excited. We lasted for 2 days before we ran out of patience with all the children who were bullies, rude, unsafe etc. I was often the only parent around a group of half a dozen young kids throwing legos, taking legos from my son, and causing mayhem. I saw toddlers walking around without adults around pools. The list goes on and on. It was a shock to me to see such a different perspective than what I read about here.
Before that trip, I didn't know there was a different kind of unschooling. I wonder if other unschooling conferences are like the one in Texas or if there's one where the families are more like mine and the ones described on this list.
Dana
Sylvia
Bob Collier posted>> I just encountered this article online, which may be of interest.
Unschooling Versus Unparenting
http://hubpages.com/hub/Unschooling-Versus-Unparenting>>
*****
That's quite an article, and I don't mean that in a good way.
The author calls himself an unschooler, but goes on to describe his method as something more like unit studies, mostly chosen by his children. He goes on to say that reading and basic math skills need to be learned by a certain and that there are some things a person can't learn once they're *too old* (without specifying what age is, just that it's beyond his comfort level).
Apparently, at some point in his life he got too old to learn proper grammar and how to proofread, because that article was a mess.
He also clearly believes that radical unschooling is synonymous with unparenting. He's fine with people practicing his version of *unschooling* (which really doesn't sound much like unschooling to me) and paints all those who call themselves radical unschoolers with a broad brush, in a very unbecoming color.
And, yes, he's of the kinds of homeschoolers (I can't call him an unschooler, because IMO, he isn't) with whom I'm not crazy about discussing unschooling as a whole-life method. He seems convinced that anyone who doesn't acknowledge his *must learn at an early age* list is being irresponsible and unparenting.
*****
Bob: > It reminded me of something that happened to me recently on another unschooling list - a "radical unschooling" list - when a mother posted a request for help regarding her daughter's lack of reading ability. The daughter was almost 13 and apparently could barely read at all and was very uncomfortable with that in the company of her peers. What the mother asked was, "What would you do?" Since the daughter was apparently now thoroughly miserable with this ongoing situation and her mother was becoming increasingly anxious because her daughter was so miserable, it seemed to me that the real issue was happiness not reading, so I wrote that what I would do was set myself the goal of helping my daughter develop her reading ability to a sufficient degree that she would be comfortable in the company of her peers and I would respect my daughter's self-authority by finding a way to do so that she was agreeable to. I thought that was a reasonable response and it is what I would do, so I was only answering the question asked. My reply was moderated out and not published. The mother got the same advice from a number of other people, which was to wait and do nothing because the daughter would catch up to her peers with her reading eventually.
*****
It's a shame your post was moderated and unpublished, because I find that often the more ideas posted, the more helpful the discussion that results will be. One of the things I like most about this list is the variety of advice and ideas offered, and the conversations that follow.
With that particular situation, my first suggestion would have been to determine what really has the child unhappy. Does she want to read and is she feeling desperate and anxious that she can't? Would she like some help in learning how to read? Is she interested in seeking help beyond what I can do for her? Or is she okay with her inability to read, and just needing my help in negotiating the social aspects of being not yet a reader? What I did next to support my child would depend on what she told me she wanted and needed.
And yeah, if I found myself posting to a list where I was regularly moderated and unpublished, I would unsub, and find a group that better fit my own philosophies.
Sylvia
Unschooling Versus Unparenting
http://hubpages.com/hub/Unschooling-Versus-Unparenting>>
*****
That's quite an article, and I don't mean that in a good way.
The author calls himself an unschooler, but goes on to describe his method as something more like unit studies, mostly chosen by his children. He goes on to say that reading and basic math skills need to be learned by a certain and that there are some things a person can't learn once they're *too old* (without specifying what age is, just that it's beyond his comfort level).
Apparently, at some point in his life he got too old to learn proper grammar and how to proofread, because that article was a mess.
He also clearly believes that radical unschooling is synonymous with unparenting. He's fine with people practicing his version of *unschooling* (which really doesn't sound much like unschooling to me) and paints all those who call themselves radical unschoolers with a broad brush, in a very unbecoming color.
And, yes, he's of the kinds of homeschoolers (I can't call him an unschooler, because IMO, he isn't) with whom I'm not crazy about discussing unschooling as a whole-life method. He seems convinced that anyone who doesn't acknowledge his *must learn at an early age* list is being irresponsible and unparenting.
*****
Bob: > It reminded me of something that happened to me recently on another unschooling list - a "radical unschooling" list - when a mother posted a request for help regarding her daughter's lack of reading ability. The daughter was almost 13 and apparently could barely read at all and was very uncomfortable with that in the company of her peers. What the mother asked was, "What would you do?" Since the daughter was apparently now thoroughly miserable with this ongoing situation and her mother was becoming increasingly anxious because her daughter was so miserable, it seemed to me that the real issue was happiness not reading, so I wrote that what I would do was set myself the goal of helping my daughter develop her reading ability to a sufficient degree that she would be comfortable in the company of her peers and I would respect my daughter's self-authority by finding a way to do so that she was agreeable to. I thought that was a reasonable response and it is what I would do, so I was only answering the question asked. My reply was moderated out and not published. The mother got the same advice from a number of other people, which was to wait and do nothing because the daughter would catch up to her peers with her reading eventually.
*****
It's a shame your post was moderated and unpublished, because I find that often the more ideas posted, the more helpful the discussion that results will be. One of the things I like most about this list is the variety of advice and ideas offered, and the conversations that follow.
With that particular situation, my first suggestion would have been to determine what really has the child unhappy. Does she want to read and is she feeling desperate and anxious that she can't? Would she like some help in learning how to read? Is she interested in seeking help beyond what I can do for her? Or is she okay with her inability to read, and just needing my help in negotiating the social aspects of being not yet a reader? What I did next to support my child would depend on what she told me she wanted and needed.
And yeah, if I found myself posting to a list where I was regularly moderated and unpublished, I would unsub, and find a group that better fit my own philosophies.
Sylvia
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 22, 2011, at 3:22 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
But it depends on the situation. And what the child's expectations of
the last cookie are. And how old she is. And whether her trust that
you're not in competition with each other has been damaged.
What can help with clarity is recognizing that you have power that she
doesn't. You have the power to make more cookies. You have the means
to go buy more cookies. She doesn't. You have more life experience of
putting off your needs and that more cookies will be available. Your
sense of time is condensed so tomorrow when you can go to the store is
only a day away when to a small child that can feel like a week.
There's more than giving nothing or giving everything you have. Notice
the kid didn't have much respect for the tree and I've seen that when
people continually sacrifice themselves, not showing any respect for
themselves, then others don't respect them either.
The choices are more than giving to the child or giving to your self.
The relationship building approach when power is out of balance is how
do you meet the child's needs first and then yours without the child
feeling you're taking from them to meet your own needs.
something that needs worked on! It's a priority that will override
meeting a child's needs. If the cookie is that important, you need way
more cookies in your life so they don't feel limited and don't make
you feel in competition with your child over them!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Or, can a parent say, "I was just about to eat this myself. WouldI wouldn't even ask. I'd just share.
> you be willing to share it with me?"
But it depends on the situation. And what the child's expectations of
the last cookie are. And how old she is. And whether her trust that
you're not in competition with each other has been damaged.
What can help with clarity is recognizing that you have power that she
doesn't. You have the power to make more cookies. You have the means
to go buy more cookies. She doesn't. You have more life experience of
putting off your needs and that more cookies will be available. Your
sense of time is condensed so tomorrow when you can go to the store is
only a day away when to a small child that can feel like a week.
> I remember loving "The Giving Tree" when I read it as a teenager,I really dislike that book!
> but right after becoming a mother, I felt differently about it.
> Isn't it possible to be giving, loving, without destroying oneself?
There's more than giving nothing or giving everything you have. Notice
the kid didn't have much respect for the tree and I've seen that when
people continually sacrifice themselves, not showing any respect for
themselves, then others don't respect them either.
The choices are more than giving to the child or giving to your self.
The relationship building approach when power is out of balance is how
do you meet the child's needs first and then yours without the child
feeling you're taking from them to meet your own needs.
> Giving up a cookie is one thing, but what if you really, REALLYIf a cookie is more important than your child's happiness that's
> wanted that cookie and giving it was more a sacrifice than a desire
> to see your child made happy? Would the experienced unschoolers here
> say that one should always give the cookie selflessly and joyfully?
something that needs worked on! It's a priority that will override
meeting a child's needs. If the cookie is that important, you need way
more cookies in your life so they don't feel limited and don't make
you feel in competition with your child over them!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=> I remember loving "The Giving Tree" when I read it as a teenager,
OH my gosh, the first time I saw that book, as a kid, not even a mom, I thought this is wrong, wrong, wrong.
it is VERY possible for one to mistakenly believe she is "preserving" herself. I've known many people, parents, who held back on loving and giving out of some misunderstood idea that she COULD "destroy herself" by being generous and sweet. Those moms still get old and die, but they're more likely to die unhappy and unloved.
-=-The choices are more than giving to the child or giving to your self.
The relationship building approach when power is out of balance is how
do you meet the child's needs first and then yours without the child
feeling you're taking from them to meet your own needs.-=-
As long as the mother and child are in competition for ANYthing, they're not partners.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Don't be your child's adversary. Don't be jealous or resentful of your child.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but right after becoming a mother, I felt differently about it.-=-I really dislike that book!-=-
> Isn't it possible to be giving, loving, without destroying oneself?
OH my gosh, the first time I saw that book, as a kid, not even a mom, I thought this is wrong, wrong, wrong.
it is VERY possible for one to mistakenly believe she is "preserving" herself. I've known many people, parents, who held back on loving and giving out of some misunderstood idea that she COULD "destroy herself" by being generous and sweet. Those moms still get old and die, but they're more likely to die unhappy and unloved.
-=-The choices are more than giving to the child or giving to your self.
The relationship building approach when power is out of balance is how
do you meet the child's needs first and then yours without the child
feeling you're taking from them to meet your own needs.-=-
As long as the mother and child are in competition for ANYthing, they're not partners.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Don't be your child's adversary. Don't be jealous or resentful of your child.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-and also I'm wondering if anybody here has had the experience of having a reply to a "radical unschooling" list simply ignored.-=-
But this is a radical unschooling list, Bob, and we return some posts.
I don't know what can be done here, by us, about Very Bad Advice given elsewhere. I'm sad to know of it. If their advice was "do nothing," that's a damned shame and I wish more people would actually read on Joyce's page or mine or other places that have collections of ideas over years and years.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
and half a dozen others, linked halfway down the lefthand side
Those are found by google. Those are freely available to anyone and nobody peeks to see who looks.
Anyone limiting himself or herself to a single source is risking exposure to ignorance, or to being misled. Every unschooling parent or anyone learning or practicing ANYthing should probably have more than one resource and outlet. Maybe that's all that would need to be said on that other list.
"Anyone limiting himself or herself to a single source is risking exposure to ignorance, or to being misled. Every unschooling parent or anyone learning or practicing ANYthing should probably have more than one resource and outlet."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But this is a radical unschooling list, Bob, and we return some posts.
I don't know what can be done here, by us, about Very Bad Advice given elsewhere. I'm sad to know of it. If their advice was "do nothing," that's a damned shame and I wish more people would actually read on Joyce's page or mine or other places that have collections of ideas over years and years.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
and half a dozen others, linked halfway down the lefthand side
Those are found by google. Those are freely available to anyone and nobody peeks to see who looks.
Anyone limiting himself or herself to a single source is risking exposure to ignorance, or to being misled. Every unschooling parent or anyone learning or practicing ANYthing should probably have more than one resource and outlet. Maybe that's all that would need to be said on that other list.
"Anyone limiting himself or herself to a single source is risking exposure to ignorance, or to being misled. Every unschooling parent or anyone learning or practicing ANYthing should probably have more than one resource and outlet."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Clearly, I was not practicing radical unschooling when I was in the playgroup mentioned. I had never even heard of unschooling at the time.-=-
But as you "practice" radical unschooling now, it's good to separate what does work from what might not--not by other people telling you but by your looking at situations in light of your own child's needs and peace. It seemed when you wrote about the playgroup policy that you were recommending it here for unschoolers.
-=-some have called anti-AP....The philosophy of the group suggested raising an authentic, -=-
Attachment parenting has become something more particular these days than it was 20, 25 years ago, so when moms with older kids hear it they probably think of the Dr. Sears, La Leche League literature of the 1980's and early 90's, but some people took that on and somehow made it a controlling sort of parenting. It took some contortion, but they did it. So first, please use whole words when you can (rather than "AP") or such, and second, be vigilant and wary about terms like "authentic" that add more confusion than clarity.
"To raise an authentic child" or "to be an authentic parent" are not phrases that help with unschooling at all, in my experience.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But as you "practice" radical unschooling now, it's good to separate what does work from what might not--not by other people telling you but by your looking at situations in light of your own child's needs and peace. It seemed when you wrote about the playgroup policy that you were recommending it here for unschoolers.
-=-some have called anti-AP....The philosophy of the group suggested raising an authentic, -=-
Attachment parenting has become something more particular these days than it was 20, 25 years ago, so when moms with older kids hear it they probably think of the Dr. Sears, La Leche League literature of the 1980's and early 90's, but some people took that on and somehow made it a controlling sort of parenting. It took some contortion, but they did it. So first, please use whole words when you can (rather than "AP") or such, and second, be vigilant and wary about terms like "authentic" that add more confusion than clarity.
"To raise an authentic child" or "to be an authentic parent" are not phrases that help with unschooling at all, in my experience.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]