Reactions to rough discussions
Sandra Dodd
I was asked a question, and said I would answer it here. I invite others to respond to. Those who responded in the thread named below might want to answer the same question. Those who read there and didn't respond are welcome to respond here.
" I just read the Help Please! thread on Always Learning and I wonder how you keep your cool? Do you obsess after you respond to something as controversial to unschoolers as a mother who spanks? Does it stay with you through the day?"
I was stressed more when I was younger, about social skirmishes. Since I came online to discuss unschooling, I've been in my 40's and 50's.
For over a dozen years I've been clear that we *can* discuss the ideas without putting a spotlight in the eyes of a poster and without knowing all the details of a family or relationship. There are principles, and combinations, and exceptions. If the posts are kept fairly general, or moved toward generalities after the first pass, those responses become some of the quotes and passages that are saved on my site, Joyce's, and refrigerator doors around the world.
Things like these came out of discussions here, other lists, or unschooling.info, unschooling.com, familyRUNning...
http://sandradodd.com/quotes
Those who write are clarifying their own thoughts and honing their abilities to see which part of an account is fluff and what is the core issue.
Some of those who are reading are discovering which writers here will be their favorites. Old timers see new writers come along and share a dazzling point or a particularly good insight.
Other readers are letting the words flow by and over them as waves of examples of what not to do, or scenarios they will manage to avoid because of suggestions shared by experienced unschoolers.
I rarely obsess about these things, though I do spend MANY hours a day, usually, on correspondence, webpage maintenance, blog posts and (lately) scheduling meet-ups and presentations.
If someone assures at length she spanks, and says she has a child who has been unschooled since birth, what I learn from that is that saying "unschooled" is not the same as living it. And no three year old is yet assured of staying home the next year or the one after. Schools are everywhere. No one "gets credit" in a discussion like this for an unimpressive claim of having read a whole website or section, or having unschooled for three years when the reports are so contradictory and the situations are so troublesome. The only credit that's worth a damn is the loving response of the child. Secondary respect might come from other unschooling parents who see when someone is clear and honest, and when someone else is squirrelly or dodgy.
I would be more concerned and maybe lose sleep if the list became a place where bad ideas were treated the same as good ideas, or spanking wasn't pointed at immediately.
The integrity of information and discussion on this list is important to me.
Millions of people spank. We can't stop that. What we can prevent is the encouragement of that practice in the discussions on Always Learning.
Hundreds of people say they unschool when all they're doing is living punitive, controlling lives without sending their children to school. I hope it's not thousands.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
" I just read the Help Please! thread on Always Learning and I wonder how you keep your cool? Do you obsess after you respond to something as controversial to unschoolers as a mother who spanks? Does it stay with you through the day?"
I was stressed more when I was younger, about social skirmishes. Since I came online to discuss unschooling, I've been in my 40's and 50's.
For over a dozen years I've been clear that we *can* discuss the ideas without putting a spotlight in the eyes of a poster and without knowing all the details of a family or relationship. There are principles, and combinations, and exceptions. If the posts are kept fairly general, or moved toward generalities after the first pass, those responses become some of the quotes and passages that are saved on my site, Joyce's, and refrigerator doors around the world.
Things like these came out of discussions here, other lists, or unschooling.info, unschooling.com, familyRUNning...
http://sandradodd.com/quotes
Those who write are clarifying their own thoughts and honing their abilities to see which part of an account is fluff and what is the core issue.
Some of those who are reading are discovering which writers here will be their favorites. Old timers see new writers come along and share a dazzling point or a particularly good insight.
Other readers are letting the words flow by and over them as waves of examples of what not to do, or scenarios they will manage to avoid because of suggestions shared by experienced unschoolers.
I rarely obsess about these things, though I do spend MANY hours a day, usually, on correspondence, webpage maintenance, blog posts and (lately) scheduling meet-ups and presentations.
If someone assures at length she spanks, and says she has a child who has been unschooled since birth, what I learn from that is that saying "unschooled" is not the same as living it. And no three year old is yet assured of staying home the next year or the one after. Schools are everywhere. No one "gets credit" in a discussion like this for an unimpressive claim of having read a whole website or section, or having unschooled for three years when the reports are so contradictory and the situations are so troublesome. The only credit that's worth a damn is the loving response of the child. Secondary respect might come from other unschooling parents who see when someone is clear and honest, and when someone else is squirrelly or dodgy.
I would be more concerned and maybe lose sleep if the list became a place where bad ideas were treated the same as good ideas, or spanking wasn't pointed at immediately.
The integrity of information and discussion on this list is important to me.
Millions of people spank. We can't stop that. What we can prevent is the encouragement of that practice in the discussions on Always Learning.
Hundreds of people say they unschool when all they're doing is living punitive, controlling lives without sending their children to school. I hope it's not thousands.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Hundreds of people say they unschool when all they're doing is living
punitive, controlling lives without sending their children to school. I hope
it's not thousands.***
While I haven't seen hundreds, I've seen a handful, I bet many others have seen
a handful, and it adds up. That is why I try not to get too upset about online
threads.
***" I just read the Help Please! thread on Always Learning and I wonder how you
keep your cool? Do you obsess after you respond to something as controversial to
unschoolers as a mother who spanks? Does it stay with you through the day?"***
There have been upsetting moments of online activity for me. Sometimes things
stay with me, but more in the sense that I think about it and puzzle it out and
tease out the idea and why I feel the way I do.
What really helped in an odd sort of way, was meeting, in real life, just really
terrible parents, and dealing with them. That stayed with me longer and
impacted me greater. It still does. I assume that most people come to a forum
like this because they are trying to be better parents. Not all parents in the
world are even trying to be half way decent parents, and boy have I met some of
those! That reality helps me keep online unschooling stuff in perspective!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
punitive, controlling lives without sending their children to school. I hope
it's not thousands.***
While I haven't seen hundreds, I've seen a handful, I bet many others have seen
a handful, and it adds up. That is why I try not to get too upset about online
threads.
***" I just read the Help Please! thread on Always Learning and I wonder how you
keep your cool? Do you obsess after you respond to something as controversial to
unschoolers as a mother who spanks? Does it stay with you through the day?"***
There have been upsetting moments of online activity for me. Sometimes things
stay with me, but more in the sense that I think about it and puzzle it out and
tease out the idea and why I feel the way I do.
What really helped in an odd sort of way, was meeting, in real life, just really
terrible parents, and dealing with them. That stayed with me longer and
impacted me greater. It still does. I assume that most people come to a forum
like this because they are trying to be better parents. Not all parents in the
world are even trying to be half way decent parents, and boy have I met some of
those! That reality helps me keep online unschooling stuff in perspective!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I wrote an e-mail last night and I did not send as I thought I was too upset to
have a clear mind and write something that would help .
Here is some of it:
\
<<Her spankings are specific and routine. She bends over on the floor and is
spanked with a plastic paddle on the rear. I can't imagine that she learned
to hit my arm (as she does once in a while) from my spanking.>>>
You say you have been reading about unschooling since you were 4 months pregnant
and that
you have read almost all of Sandra's site including the page about spanking and
'
you come to this list and write what you did above about a 3 year old child! A
baby!
You write that you have been unschooling since birth but your child is not
school age.
Most parents that write that they unschool their kids under school age mean that
they are practicing attachment parenting. I don;t believe that you can do that
and spank babies.That is the opposite of being attached and in tune with
your child.
I could understand if you said you have hit your child in moments of frustration
and that
you want to stop that. I have hit my son out of frustration and I absolutely do
not agree, believe or
accept spanking as an option.
Spanking calmly and with a specific routine?
Should your husband spank you if you keep acting or behaving in a way that
bothers him or that he does not like?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have a clear mind and write something that would help .
Here is some of it:
\
<<Her spankings are specific and routine. She bends over on the floor and is
spanked with a plastic paddle on the rear. I can't imagine that she learned
to hit my arm (as she does once in a while) from my spanking.>>>
You say you have been reading about unschooling since you were 4 months pregnant
and that
you have read almost all of Sandra's site including the page about spanking and
'
you come to this list and write what you did above about a 3 year old child! A
baby!
You write that you have been unschooling since birth but your child is not
school age.
Most parents that write that they unschool their kids under school age mean that
they are practicing attachment parenting. I don;t believe that you can do that
and spank babies.That is the opposite of being attached and in tune with
your child.
I could understand if you said you have hit your child in moments of frustration
and that
you want to stop that. I have hit my son out of frustration and I absolutely do
not agree, believe or
accept spanking as an option.
Spanking calmly and with a specific routine?
Should your husband spank you if you keep acting or behaving in a way that
bothers him or that he does not like?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What really helped in an odd sort of way, was meeting, in real life, just really
terrible parents, and dealing with them. That stayed with me longer and
impacted me greater. It still does. I assume that most people come to a forum
like this because they are trying to be better parents. Not all parents in the
world are even trying to be half way decent parents, and boy have I met some of
those! That reality helps me keep online unschooling stuff in perspective!-=-
This is a good point. A few times someone has become agitated on the side, about an exchange here, and suggested maybe I, or someone, should **DO SOMETHING** about how terrible a parent someone has come here and confessed to being, but no... these are parents who have found unschooling and asked questions about it. And they can't "unsee" what is written directly to them. They can froth up and Donald-Duck themselves into a frenzy of self-righteous indignation and tell us we're stupid and they should never have asked us.
Some of them will be that defensive forever. For some of them, it's the reason their kids aren't in school. They couldn't understand or even consider why there would be guidelines for kids in school, or their parents. They (or their kids) couldn't begin to get along with others. They didn't go toward something more peaceful, they backed out cussing and screaming without much of a plan.
Some of the, even if they came to unschooling after dramatic exits, can manage to think and wait enough to find some calm objectivity.
Some of the people who leave the list write later, sometimes on the list, sometimes on the side to me or one of the other moderators, saying that they were furious at first, and thought we were mean and crazy, and they're sorry they reacted so defensively. I assume there are more who change their minds and don't admit it. Some just sneak back quietly. Some go to another discussion and behave better. Some probably avoid discussions, but do the best they can with what they read when they were there.
Some suggestions will dwell in a person, no matter how angry she starts off, and will dissolve into her consciousness gradually over the years.
That knowledge has helped me be calmer when someone throws a big fit.
Secondarily, I know there are readers who don't write who sometimes get more out of a heated discussion than calm advisement and quiet brainstorming.
There are people who see this list and think they could do better simply by answering questions in sweet voices. But sweet voices without experience are just nicey-niceness without substance. A few people who left this list because they thought we should be nicer, and no other reason, go out and give very light advice, quoting truisms they mostly understand, at best, and telling people everything will be okay. That bothers me more than knowing someone spanks, because they lure dozens or hundreds of parents into lame situations without strong voices of experienced unschoolers who have the integrity to risk their own comfort to say "This will harm your child, and your own happiness."
Even if there were a child who somehow didn't know or care that he was being hit, the mom is still a person who chooses to hit. She's still a person who has not found alternatives and made good choices that make her a more peaceful person. In the realm of virtue and integrity, she can't have it if her best ideas is hitting a child. Too often, I think, we talk about the effect on child and relationship without remembering individual virtue. When a parent becomes a better person, good decisions are more easily made.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
terrible parents, and dealing with them. That stayed with me longer and
impacted me greater. It still does. I assume that most people come to a forum
like this because they are trying to be better parents. Not all parents in the
world are even trying to be half way decent parents, and boy have I met some of
those! That reality helps me keep online unschooling stuff in perspective!-=-
This is a good point. A few times someone has become agitated on the side, about an exchange here, and suggested maybe I, or someone, should **DO SOMETHING** about how terrible a parent someone has come here and confessed to being, but no... these are parents who have found unschooling and asked questions about it. And they can't "unsee" what is written directly to them. They can froth up and Donald-Duck themselves into a frenzy of self-righteous indignation and tell us we're stupid and they should never have asked us.
Some of them will be that defensive forever. For some of them, it's the reason their kids aren't in school. They couldn't understand or even consider why there would be guidelines for kids in school, or their parents. They (or their kids) couldn't begin to get along with others. They didn't go toward something more peaceful, they backed out cussing and screaming without much of a plan.
Some of the, even if they came to unschooling after dramatic exits, can manage to think and wait enough to find some calm objectivity.
Some of the people who leave the list write later, sometimes on the list, sometimes on the side to me or one of the other moderators, saying that they were furious at first, and thought we were mean and crazy, and they're sorry they reacted so defensively. I assume there are more who change their minds and don't admit it. Some just sneak back quietly. Some go to another discussion and behave better. Some probably avoid discussions, but do the best they can with what they read when they were there.
Some suggestions will dwell in a person, no matter how angry she starts off, and will dissolve into her consciousness gradually over the years.
That knowledge has helped me be calmer when someone throws a big fit.
Secondarily, I know there are readers who don't write who sometimes get more out of a heated discussion than calm advisement and quiet brainstorming.
There are people who see this list and think they could do better simply by answering questions in sweet voices. But sweet voices without experience are just nicey-niceness without substance. A few people who left this list because they thought we should be nicer, and no other reason, go out and give very light advice, quoting truisms they mostly understand, at best, and telling people everything will be okay. That bothers me more than knowing someone spanks, because they lure dozens or hundreds of parents into lame situations without strong voices of experienced unschoolers who have the integrity to risk their own comfort to say "This will harm your child, and your own happiness."
Even if there were a child who somehow didn't know or care that he was being hit, the mom is still a person who chooses to hit. She's still a person who has not found alternatives and made good choices that make her a more peaceful person. In the realm of virtue and integrity, she can't have it if her best ideas is hitting a child. Too often, I think, we talk about the effect on child and relationship without remembering individual virtue. When a parent becomes a better person, good decisions are more easily made.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-You say you have been reading about unschooling since you were 4 months pregnant and that you have read almost all of Sandra's site including the page about spanking and you come to this list and write what you did above about a 3 year old child! A baby! You write that you have been unschooling since birth but your child is not school age. -=-
Reading isn't learning.
Even if there were tests about unschooling, some sort of competitive Graduate Record Exam on the history of and concepts involved in attachment parenting and unschooling, a person could get the to score and still be a crap parent.
Reciting good ideas isn't the same as the ability to make quick, compassionate decisions in part of a second (or to know that sometimes it's okay to take several seconds to take a breath, step away a few steps, and think, before making a decision).
And I think when people say "I've read your whole site," or "I read that whole page," they're cheating, school-style. They're swearing they read the chapter the night before, while clearly showing they don't even know where their book is anymore. I remember being in school and seeing friends and classmates lie like sonso'bitches--bald-faced lies--as though the teachers were cardboard cutouts with no possible ability to perceive bullshit. When I was teaching, kids would do that to me sometimes, and I would calmly entrap them rather than confront them, or I would just let it slide altogether, figuring school itself was the problem, and the lies were undertstandable under the circumstances.
Here, though, I think the lies are told out of habit. Of if there is thought behind them, it might be "they will accept me if I say I've been unschooling for years," or "They won't give me the easy answers if I 'simply explain' that I've been reading Sandra's site/Joyce's site for years."
What they don't consider is an idea I gained partly from judging arts competitions, something I do NOT like to do. Then from helping revise the rules to make arts competitions more fair, something that I gave up doing 20 years ago. And from my own guitar playing. When I was a teen people were amazed that I was "so good" so young. When I was in my 20's, it was just guitar playing. I didn't learn anything else after thoes days, so now it's relatively lame, and I don't keep callouses, and my hands are getting stiffer. But when I said "I've only been playing four months," when I was fifteen, I was GREAT! Now, having played for over 40 years, I don't have much to show for it. There was move for a while, in our SCA region, for people to tell how long it had taken them to create a certain piece of art, when they entered it into a competition. I objected and was overruled. I was a judge in the first regional competition in which the hours invested was information presented to the judges. HORRIBLE.
If I saw something that wasn't attractive or useful (to me, and I had been pressed to be a judge against my will for various reasons too long to explain here), and the maker said "100 hours," I cringed. What wonders could have been wrought with 100 hours if he or she had done other things with that time? If someone said "five hours" about something similar, I would soften right up.
If someone says "I never heard of unschooling until yesterday, and I spank, and..." the response will be different than if someone says "I've been unschooling for a few years, read everything there is to read, and I spank because I want to and I don't want a lecture about spanking, but..." the reaction will be different because the person tried to jump the line and claim experience and tried to waive off basic advice on the grounds that she wasn't "at a basic level."
It's not so simple. I've been parenting now for over 24 and a half years. If I weren't doing better now than I was when I started, I don't think this list would exist. If there weren't things that clearly do help, and absolutely do hurt, nobody would be coming to this list.
This IS simple, to me: If people stop coming to this list, I will easily find something else to do with my hundred hours. But as long as someone, anyone, is interested in considering what would make her children's lives more peaceful and her own life richer, more moral, and better, I'm probably going to be willing to help. I can sometimes tell the difference between a sincere "please help" and a just-for-show "I have so much respect for you, and would love for you to help me find ways to make my children's lives more peaceful and my own life richer."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reading isn't learning.
Even if there were tests about unschooling, some sort of competitive Graduate Record Exam on the history of and concepts involved in attachment parenting and unschooling, a person could get the to score and still be a crap parent.
Reciting good ideas isn't the same as the ability to make quick, compassionate decisions in part of a second (or to know that sometimes it's okay to take several seconds to take a breath, step away a few steps, and think, before making a decision).
And I think when people say "I've read your whole site," or "I read that whole page," they're cheating, school-style. They're swearing they read the chapter the night before, while clearly showing they don't even know where their book is anymore. I remember being in school and seeing friends and classmates lie like sonso'bitches--bald-faced lies--as though the teachers were cardboard cutouts with no possible ability to perceive bullshit. When I was teaching, kids would do that to me sometimes, and I would calmly entrap them rather than confront them, or I would just let it slide altogether, figuring school itself was the problem, and the lies were undertstandable under the circumstances.
Here, though, I think the lies are told out of habit. Of if there is thought behind them, it might be "they will accept me if I say I've been unschooling for years," or "They won't give me the easy answers if I 'simply explain' that I've been reading Sandra's site/Joyce's site for years."
What they don't consider is an idea I gained partly from judging arts competitions, something I do NOT like to do. Then from helping revise the rules to make arts competitions more fair, something that I gave up doing 20 years ago. And from my own guitar playing. When I was a teen people were amazed that I was "so good" so young. When I was in my 20's, it was just guitar playing. I didn't learn anything else after thoes days, so now it's relatively lame, and I don't keep callouses, and my hands are getting stiffer. But when I said "I've only been playing four months," when I was fifteen, I was GREAT! Now, having played for over 40 years, I don't have much to show for it. There was move for a while, in our SCA region, for people to tell how long it had taken them to create a certain piece of art, when they entered it into a competition. I objected and was overruled. I was a judge in the first regional competition in which the hours invested was information presented to the judges. HORRIBLE.
If I saw something that wasn't attractive or useful (to me, and I had been pressed to be a judge against my will for various reasons too long to explain here), and the maker said "100 hours," I cringed. What wonders could have been wrought with 100 hours if he or she had done other things with that time? If someone said "five hours" about something similar, I would soften right up.
If someone says "I never heard of unschooling until yesterday, and I spank, and..." the response will be different than if someone says "I've been unschooling for a few years, read everything there is to read, and I spank because I want to and I don't want a lecture about spanking, but..." the reaction will be different because the person tried to jump the line and claim experience and tried to waive off basic advice on the grounds that she wasn't "at a basic level."
It's not so simple. I've been parenting now for over 24 and a half years. If I weren't doing better now than I was when I started, I don't think this list would exist. If there weren't things that clearly do help, and absolutely do hurt, nobody would be coming to this list.
This IS simple, to me: If people stop coming to this list, I will easily find something else to do with my hundred hours. But as long as someone, anyone, is interested in considering what would make her children's lives more peaceful and her own life richer, more moral, and better, I'm probably going to be willing to help. I can sometimes tell the difference between a sincere "please help" and a just-for-show "I have so much respect for you, and would love for you to help me find ways to make my children's lives more peaceful and my own life richer."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hmbpie
=I do spend MANY hours a day, usually, on correspondence, webpage maintenance, blog posts and (lately) scheduling meet-ups and presentations.=
And I thank you for it! I thank you for taking the time to keep us all on track and pointing a finger at things like spanking.
=I know there are readers who don't write who sometimes get more out
of a heated discussion than calm advisement and quiet brainstorming.=
I am this person but I am breaking old ways of thinking and for me sometimes in a heated discussion things are put so blatantly that they click or clang and even sometimes smash in my head! I love it and that's why I am still here.
I can say this thread has got me really thinking about the relationship I had and still do have with my parents to the one I was having with my son. I am reminded that even though it feels like a lifetime ago it really wasn't that long ago that I spanked my son and that we still have a lot of healing to do.
And I thank you for it! I thank you for taking the time to keep us all on track and pointing a finger at things like spanking.
=I know there are readers who don't write who sometimes get more out
of a heated discussion than calm advisement and quiet brainstorming.=
I am this person but I am breaking old ways of thinking and for me sometimes in a heated discussion things are put so blatantly that they click or clang and even sometimes smash in my head! I love it and that's why I am still here.
I can say this thread has got me really thinking about the relationship I had and still do have with my parents to the one I was having with my son. I am reminded that even though it feels like a lifetime ago it really wasn't that long ago that I spanked my son and that we still have a lot of healing to do.
dola dasgupta-banerji
I spanked my daughter and son long time ago. And I can say it is the most
horrible thing to do. I have thought about those unfortunate incidents over
and over again and came to one BIG conclusion long time back. Parents who
spank their children need to really stop and think "how frustrated am I at
my own inabilities to care for others and be warm and comforting and loving.
And how many ghosts are locked up in the closet that the parent needs to
really get rid of."
IT IS NOT OK TO SPANK. PERIOD.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS.
My husband was regularly brutally beaten up by his Dad and so were his
brothers and mother. All these men have more than once beaten up their
wives. (that includes me). To say it is just a slap on the back or on the
face cannot be an excuse.
Spanking is horrible and can leave far deeper wounds than one can imagine.
Whoever is doing this please STOP right now.
Dola
horrible thing to do. I have thought about those unfortunate incidents over
and over again and came to one BIG conclusion long time back. Parents who
spank their children need to really stop and think "how frustrated am I at
my own inabilities to care for others and be warm and comforting and loving.
And how many ghosts are locked up in the closet that the parent needs to
really get rid of."
IT IS NOT OK TO SPANK. PERIOD.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS.
My husband was regularly brutally beaten up by his Dad and so were his
brothers and mother. All these men have more than once beaten up their
wives. (that includes me). To say it is just a slap on the back or on the
face cannot be an excuse.
Spanking is horrible and can leave far deeper wounds than one can imagine.
Whoever is doing this please STOP right now.
Dola
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was asked a question, and said I would answer it here. I invite others to
> respond to. Those who responded in the thread named below might want to
> answer the same question. Those who read there and didn't respond are
> welcome to respond here.
>
> " I just read the Help Please! thread on Always Learning and I wonder how
> you keep your cool? Do you obsess after you respond to something as
> controversial to unschoolers as a mother who spanks? Does it stay with you
> through the day?"
>
> I was stressed more when I was younger, about social skirmishes. Since I
> came online to discuss unschooling, I've been in my 40's and 50's.
>
> For over a dozen years I've been clear that we *can* discuss the ideas
> without putting a spotlight in the eyes of a poster and without knowing all
> the details of a family or relationship. There are principles, and
> combinations, and exceptions. If the posts are kept fairly general, or moved
> toward generalities after the first pass, those responses become some of the
> quotes and passages that are saved on my site, Joyce's, and refrigerator
> doors around the world.
>
> Things like these came out of discussions here, other lists, or
> unschooling.info, unschooling.com, familyRUNning...
> http://sandradodd.com/quotes
>
> Those who write are clarifying their own thoughts and honing their
> abilities to see which part of an account is fluff and what is the core
> issue.
>
> Some of those who are reading are discovering which writers here will be
> their favorites. Old timers see new writers come along and share a dazzling
> point or a particularly good insight.
>
> Other readers are letting the words flow by and over them as waves of
> examples of what not to do, or scenarios they will manage to avoid because
> of suggestions shared by experienced unschoolers.
>
> I rarely obsess about these things, though I do spend MANY hours a day,
> usually, on correspondence, webpage maintenance, blog posts and (lately)
> scheduling meet-ups and presentations.
>
> If someone assures at length she spanks, and says she has a child who has
> been unschooled since birth, what I learn from that is that saying
> "unschooled" is not the same as living it. And no three year old is yet
> assured of staying home the next year or the one after. Schools are
> everywhere. No one "gets credit" in a discussion like this for an
> unimpressive claim of having read a whole website or section, or having
> unschooled for three years when the reports are so contradictory and the
> situations are so troublesome. The only credit that's worth a damn is the
> loving response of the child. Secondary respect might come from other
> unschooling parents who see when someone is clear and honest, and when
> someone else is squirrelly or dodgy.
>
> I would be more concerned and maybe lose sleep if the list became a place
> where bad ideas were treated the same as good ideas, or spanking wasn't
> pointed at immediately.
>
> The integrity of information and discussion on this list is important to
> me.
>
> Millions of people spank. We can't stop that. What we can prevent is the
> encouragement of that practice in the discussions on Always Learning.
>
> Hundreds of people say they unschool when all they're doing is living
> punitive, controlling lives without sending their children to school. I hope
> it's not thousands.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
=== I wrote an e-mail last night and I did not send as I thought I was too upset to have a clear mind and write something that would help .===
You know Alex, I felt very much the same. I was so stunned with the whole image of her darling little three year old bending over and being paddled ("We believe in SOME spankings and" whatever the rest of the balderdash was..) that all I could think of was wanting write OMG,OMG,OMG about a thousand times.
But now thinking with a clearer head, I hope, there was something else in that whole sequence of denial and twisting thought that also worries me, that has been entirely subsumed under the spanking issue - as it should be, but now it bears mentioning.
Repeatedly Arsh (is that the name?) spoke about the other family/parents with their 6yo boy, diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum, and their discussions and how "they" (as a pair) were looking for help, and "they" were on a path, and "they" were talking things over, and she had brought "them" (the other family) into the unschooling fold - yeah they must have a real clear idea about how unschooling works if they are getting their information from someone who spanks with a plastic paddle by a routine, "as a last resort".
I don't think this discussion list works very well when one person is being the spokesperson or the filter for an anonymous committee. I mean it will not work nearly as well for the silent partner who is not speaking openly to the rest of us with their own voice, and I don't think it works well for the spokesperson who has to constantly adjust her voice to represent others and not just herself.
Plus it was starting to sound like one family couldn't make the decision to stop spanking and punishing unless they both did. Meh.
So I want to say to Arsh and her friend, both read. Ask your own questions with your own voices and your own interpretation of events. Discuss with each other what you learn if you want to, but please believe me - the blind leading the blind is not your only option.
And by the way, there's a whole lot of disingenuousness in coming here, knowing what we would say about spanking, but bringing it up in the way it was brought up anyway. If she truly did not want a lecture on spanking, she could have discussed the problems she was having without mentioning that aspect of her "solutions". I bet the underlying issue - her intense desire to control and mold the kids in her care - would have come through just fine.
I believe she knew how consumately we would all get sidetracked from discussing the underlying control issues by getting caught up in spanking. She put it out as a test, and we either passed or failed, I'm not sure which. Now she gets to go away and say "they refused to help us." (expletive deleted.)
Robyn L. Coburn
Certified SDU Scrapbook Instructor
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
You know Alex, I felt very much the same. I was so stunned with the whole image of her darling little three year old bending over and being paddled ("We believe in SOME spankings and" whatever the rest of the balderdash was..) that all I could think of was wanting write OMG,OMG,OMG about a thousand times.
But now thinking with a clearer head, I hope, there was something else in that whole sequence of denial and twisting thought that also worries me, that has been entirely subsumed under the spanking issue - as it should be, but now it bears mentioning.
Repeatedly Arsh (is that the name?) spoke about the other family/parents with their 6yo boy, diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum, and their discussions and how "they" (as a pair) were looking for help, and "they" were on a path, and "they" were talking things over, and she had brought "them" (the other family) into the unschooling fold - yeah they must have a real clear idea about how unschooling works if they are getting their information from someone who spanks with a plastic paddle by a routine, "as a last resort".
I don't think this discussion list works very well when one person is being the spokesperson or the filter for an anonymous committee. I mean it will not work nearly as well for the silent partner who is not speaking openly to the rest of us with their own voice, and I don't think it works well for the spokesperson who has to constantly adjust her voice to represent others and not just herself.
Plus it was starting to sound like one family couldn't make the decision to stop spanking and punishing unless they both did. Meh.
So I want to say to Arsh and her friend, both read. Ask your own questions with your own voices and your own interpretation of events. Discuss with each other what you learn if you want to, but please believe me - the blind leading the blind is not your only option.
And by the way, there's a whole lot of disingenuousness in coming here, knowing what we would say about spanking, but bringing it up in the way it was brought up anyway. If she truly did not want a lecture on spanking, she could have discussed the problems she was having without mentioning that aspect of her "solutions". I bet the underlying issue - her intense desire to control and mold the kids in her care - would have come through just fine.
I believe she knew how consumately we would all get sidetracked from discussing the underlying control issues by getting caught up in spanking. She put it out as a test, and we either passed or failed, I'm not sure which. Now she gets to go away and say "they refused to help us." (expletive deleted.)
Robyn L. Coburn
Certified SDU Scrapbook Instructor
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Tamara
This discussion has really hit a nerve with me.
Arsh's original post referring to 'bringing along Her best friend' and the negative description of the six year old made me wonder if she was resentful of the time the boy was taking from her time with her friend. She also referred to the idea that the kids had to learn not to interrupt conversations. Again this reminded me of all the times I was not included in conversations or dismissed because the conversation happening between the two moms was the most important thing happening.
I wondered if the two moms from the original post talked about how 'badly behaved' the kids were in front of them. I seem to remember my aunt taking great pleasure when I was punished for not being a good guest. My public punishments helped my aunt feel really loved and cared for by my mom. I wonder if the mom of the six year old from the original post is punishing her child to please her friend.
Tamara
>I am so glad you raised this point. This struck me too. The primary partnership seemed to be between the two friends - the moms - and not between the parent and child. It brought back memories of my mom's relationship with her sister. We too spent days at time visiting my aunt. I was the older of the two children and my aunt always made it clear that I was a guest, a bad influence on her darling daughter and competition for my mom's attention. (my saving grace was that my grandmother had a mother in laws suite which was my safe, neutral, loving place to retreat).
> Repeatedly Arsh (is that the name?) spoke about the other family/parents with their 6yo boy, diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum, and their discussions and how "they" (as a pair) were looking for help, and "they" were on a path, and "they" were talking things over, and she had brought "them" (the other family) into the fold.
Arsh's original post referring to 'bringing along Her best friend' and the negative description of the six year old made me wonder if she was resentful of the time the boy was taking from her time with her friend. She also referred to the idea that the kids had to learn not to interrupt conversations. Again this reminded me of all the times I was not included in conversations or dismissed because the conversation happening between the two moms was the most important thing happening.
I wondered if the two moms from the original post talked about how 'badly behaved' the kids were in front of them. I seem to remember my aunt taking great pleasure when I was punished for not being a good guest. My public punishments helped my aunt feel really loved and cared for by my mom. I wonder if the mom of the six year old from the original post is punishing her child to please her friend.
Tamara
> I don't think this discussion list works very well when one person is being the spokesperson or the filter for an anonymous committee. I mean it will not work nearly as well for the silent partner who is not speaking openly to the rest of us with their own voice, and I don't think it works well for the spokesperson who has to constantly adjust her voice to represent others and not just herself.
>
> Plus it was starting to sound like one family couldn't make the decision to stop spanking and punishing unless they both did. Meh.
>
> So I want to say to Arsh and her friend, both read. Ask your own questions with your own voices and your own interpretation of events. Discuss with each other what you learn if you want to, but please believe me - the blind leading the blind is not your only option.
>
> And by the way, there's a whole lot of disingenuousness in coming here, knowing what we would say about spanking, but bringing it up in the way it was brought up anyway. If she truly did not want a lecture on spanking, she could have discussed the problems she was having without mentioning that aspect of her "solutions". I bet the underlying issue - her intense desire to control and mold the kids in her care - would have come through just fine.
>
> I believe she knew how consumately we would all get sidetracked from discussing the underlying control issues by getting caught up in spanking. She put it out as a test, and we either passed or failed, I'm not sure which. Now she gets to go away and say "they refused to help us." (expletive deleted.)
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> Certified SDU Scrapbook Instructor
> www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I believe she knew how consumately we would all get sidetracked from discussing the underlying control issues by getting caught up in spanking. She put it out as a test, and we either passed or failed, I'm not sure which. Now she gets to go away and say "they refused to help us." (expletive deleted.)-=-
I considered the idea that it was just someone coming to "prove" something about this list, but the sheer amount of writing was more than someone would have needed to do if it were a ruse.
In the case of professional counselling, if someone backtracks and contradicts herself and makes up elaborate excuses to try to get out of a clear statement made earlier, about $600 into the sessions, the counsellor might mention the pattern.
In the case of a discussion list with a policy that says don't read until you've read the guidelines, and the guidelines say
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
... I think point out the discrepancies early on can save the time of a thousand or more readers.
Those who posted long, thoughtful replies were angels.
Someone who would come and post things that were that unclear and rapid-fire (no time for proofreading) is non-angelic.
I could have sent the posts back, but the person who wrote them might benefit about $600-worth-of-therapy by having seen (if she re-reads her own writing) that she isn't sure what she's doing and thinking. And there in the midst of her stirred-up thoughts will be the responses of people from this list. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I considered the idea that it was just someone coming to "prove" something about this list, but the sheer amount of writing was more than someone would have needed to do if it were a ruse.
In the case of professional counselling, if someone backtracks and contradicts herself and makes up elaborate excuses to try to get out of a clear statement made earlier, about $600 into the sessions, the counsellor might mention the pattern.
In the case of a discussion list with a policy that says don't read until you've read the guidelines, and the guidelines say
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
... I think point out the discrepancies early on can save the time of a thousand or more readers.
Those who posted long, thoughtful replies were angels.
Someone who would come and post things that were that unclear and rapid-fire (no time for proofreading) is non-angelic.
I could have sent the posts back, but the person who wrote them might benefit about $600-worth-of-therapy by having seen (if she re-reads her own writing) that she isn't sure what she's doing and thinking. And there in the midst of her stirred-up thoughts will be the responses of people from this list. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>And by the way, there's a whole lot of disingenuousness in coming here,knowing what we would say about spanking, but bringing it up in the way it
was brought up anyway. <<<
That's my impression. Bringing up something she "says" she didn't want to
discuss on a discussion list ... yeah sure. Of course it will be discussed!
And it was discussed very well I think. Me thinks the lady doth protest too
much .. to say here's this issue and uhm you will NOT discuss it.
On this list! :)
~Katherine
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