Ah-ha! Now what? (long post...!)
catfish_friend
Thanks to the generous moderators (Sandra, Joyce and Pam!) and active contributors, I am finally beginning to embrace and comprehend radical Unschooling!
I've read many, many pages on Sandra's site, Joyce's site and Danielle's Organic Learning site, as well as on this forum.
I've posted a few times with the occasional $.02, but let this be my intro as I am truly new to Unschooling.
I have 4.5 & 22 month old girls. When I joined this list, I was frantically looking at expensive, progressive, developmental private schools for my older daughter's kindergarten next year. Our public school is unacceptable, though I was planning on entering the lottery for a charter school -- either a progressive, Dewey based constructivist one or a Waldorf inspired one. I kept open the option of "homeschooling" next year and traveling with the family as I believed at the time that play is all the school kids need at age 5! That said, my 4.5 year old attends a home-based preschool (14 kids/day max with 2 "teachers" 3-4 days/wk). The kids are free to do what they want, go in and out of the house as they please, swim, dance, play dress-up, eat from the organic edible garden, etc. The teachers respect the children, do not talk down to them, do not belittle or praise broadly (no timeouts or "good job!"), do not "teach" them how to paint or how to play or how to read/write (unless asked). Basically, I'd love to play there, too! And, I have, at times. It is the only school near us I was even considering. If we hadn't gotten in, I would have kept my eldest home. This was before I was introduced to the concept of Unschooling.
As I began to understand Unschooling -- I started to see the schools I was touring as soul-killers. I literally could see how the students were affected as they stayed in school
longer. While the younger grades always had "light in their eyes", the older grades had poor posture and disinterested, lifeless expressions on their faces. Even the most inspired school, with happy, engaged students from K-8, still left me wondering how much choice the students had to pursue what they were interested in or simply, to play, or be outside when they wanted, to eat when hungry, etc.
At the same time, my peacefully, painlessly home-birthed, AP, EC, RIE, NVC-raised daughter was developing a nervous habit licking her lips that chapped the skin around her mouth. I had started a 60-hour/week job and one of her lifelong friends (they met at 5 months in our RIE class and have grown up together) started excluding my daughter (if she was the "lucky" one that day -- this "friend" picks one person to exclude each day) from playing with her. I felt my time apart from my eldest was damaging her and I felt helpless to support her in the way I knew she needed. I emailed the director of her preschool suggesting that my daughter's friend was emotionally bullying my daughter and acceptable choices to me seemed to be to take my daughter out of school or for the bullying to be dealt with in some way. The director responded saying that we should discuss more in person but that her feeling was that my daughter was so secure that the dynamic might be happening because the friend feels less secure than my daughter. Fortunately (or not) a family emergency took us out of town and then we had the holiday break. My daughter's nervous habit stopped. She returns to school tomorrow. I wonder if things will be different between them.
I've been focusing on being connected and responsive to my daughters. The past few weeks not working and being with them 24-7 have been magical and the first time I felt confident in my ability to truly become the mother I want to be. I've had long stretches being the stay-at-home mom before -- prior to my current job I'd work short stints 2 weeks to 3 months and then take 6 months to a year off. I've spent so much time, money and energy trying to get to a zen place with being a parent, but only now with my growing understanding of radical Unschooling am I achieving it!
As for finally embracing radical Unschooling, I was getting stuck on a few things (and DH is not yet convinced): removing limits on TV and sweets and how socialization would happen. I was able to let these go as I read and researched the sites mentioned above and started to change how I was interacting with my strong-willed, assertive 4.5 year old. I worked on nurturing our connection, getting to "yes" more often and the results were more fun, more joy and more cooperation!
For all the parenting learning I've done thus far, radical Unschooling is the greatest paradigm shift for me. I'm eternally grateful but, to be honest, a little anxious about what this means for how much transition my family will go through next...as now I want to embrace radical Unschooling as best I can as soon as I can in how I'm living!
Sorry I'm rambling a bit, but this is all relevant to the input I'm asking for....Think of it as a "monkey platter" of things to chew on. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Here are the things I'm seeking input on:
1) What's the best way to get my DH exposed to experienced radical Unschoolers? He's a seeing is believing kind of guy. He's not likely going to read a book or a blog or join a discussion group. He's open-minded, but it takes him exposure and time to process what he thinks. Every step of our parenting journey, he's been reluctant to embrace my ideas, but once exposed and informed, he's grateful to have learned a new way of doing and being. I believe he will (eventually) embrace radical Unschooling, though he's already told me that he can't imagine Unschooling our two girls by himself full-time. Which leads me to my next issue --
2) I am currently working 60+ hour weeks and he's a stay-at-home dad. My job gets our health benefits and a great paycheck. My project ends in August and quitting before would put a huge black mark on my reputation. I work freelance in film editing. The recession plus technological advances have brought down wages and increased unemployment in my field. I could quit to unschool and ask DH to work, but my earning potential is higher and I get health and pension benefits while DH does not. If I were to quit, I'd have to anticipate that it may be very difficult to get work if/when I'd need it. My issue here is two-fold: If I wait to radically unschool until after my current project is over in August, while I will have savings (and health insurance) that will take care of us for a while, is that worth the potential damage not Unschooling will do in the meantime? And, if DH is not yet on board with Unschooling, is it more prudent to give him time to meet some Unschoolers and process it for himself before doing anything radically different? He definitely still has a pretty big "I'm your dad, you can't talk to me like that!" kind of knee-jerk parenting at times. He's aware of it and working on it, but he was raised by strict, controlling parents, so it's taking time, unfortunately.
3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?
4) DH wants to move forward with our private school applications even though I've told him that I think Unschooling is the best way to educate (and protect!) our kids. If we are still at odds about "kindergarten" when it's time to decide (spring), how does a decision get made where everyone can be ok with the outcome? Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wants to unschool?
5) I asked my 4.5 yo daughter about having family time all the time instead of going to school. She said that she'd like it if she could go to school maybe 2 days a week and spend the rest with our family. Her reference for school is free-play as I mentioned above. We haven't yet wholeheartedly unschooled where I'm 100% present and actively feeding her interest. I think I can make home more interesting than even her play-based school but she doesn't yet have a truly unschooly day to measure school against.
She is extroverted (she gains energy engaging with others) and will introduce herself to potential playmates immediately when she gets to a playground. I doubt any of the other kids who will graduate from her preschool will unschool or Homeschool next year. How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year?
6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?
I know I've brought up a lot, and I don't expect feedback on it all. Any unschooly, experienced wisdom would be greatly appreciated...
Peace,
Ceci Hyoun
P.S. Signed my full name as a response to Sandra's point about anonymity. If I never understood radical Unschooling, or no one made an issue of anonymity, I probably would have never signed my complete name. I treat forums like a town hall meeting -- a good conversation may lead to giving my full name, but most times, even my first name may not be shared.
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
I've read many, many pages on Sandra's site, Joyce's site and Danielle's Organic Learning site, as well as on this forum.
I've posted a few times with the occasional $.02, but let this be my intro as I am truly new to Unschooling.
I have 4.5 & 22 month old girls. When I joined this list, I was frantically looking at expensive, progressive, developmental private schools for my older daughter's kindergarten next year. Our public school is unacceptable, though I was planning on entering the lottery for a charter school -- either a progressive, Dewey based constructivist one or a Waldorf inspired one. I kept open the option of "homeschooling" next year and traveling with the family as I believed at the time that play is all the school kids need at age 5! That said, my 4.5 year old attends a home-based preschool (14 kids/day max with 2 "teachers" 3-4 days/wk). The kids are free to do what they want, go in and out of the house as they please, swim, dance, play dress-up, eat from the organic edible garden, etc. The teachers respect the children, do not talk down to them, do not belittle or praise broadly (no timeouts or "good job!"), do not "teach" them how to paint or how to play or how to read/write (unless asked). Basically, I'd love to play there, too! And, I have, at times. It is the only school near us I was even considering. If we hadn't gotten in, I would have kept my eldest home. This was before I was introduced to the concept of Unschooling.
As I began to understand Unschooling -- I started to see the schools I was touring as soul-killers. I literally could see how the students were affected as they stayed in school
longer. While the younger grades always had "light in their eyes", the older grades had poor posture and disinterested, lifeless expressions on their faces. Even the most inspired school, with happy, engaged students from K-8, still left me wondering how much choice the students had to pursue what they were interested in or simply, to play, or be outside when they wanted, to eat when hungry, etc.
At the same time, my peacefully, painlessly home-birthed, AP, EC, RIE, NVC-raised daughter was developing a nervous habit licking her lips that chapped the skin around her mouth. I had started a 60-hour/week job and one of her lifelong friends (they met at 5 months in our RIE class and have grown up together) started excluding my daughter (if she was the "lucky" one that day -- this "friend" picks one person to exclude each day) from playing with her. I felt my time apart from my eldest was damaging her and I felt helpless to support her in the way I knew she needed. I emailed the director of her preschool suggesting that my daughter's friend was emotionally bullying my daughter and acceptable choices to me seemed to be to take my daughter out of school or for the bullying to be dealt with in some way. The director responded saying that we should discuss more in person but that her feeling was that my daughter was so secure that the dynamic might be happening because the friend feels less secure than my daughter. Fortunately (or not) a family emergency took us out of town and then we had the holiday break. My daughter's nervous habit stopped. She returns to school tomorrow. I wonder if things will be different between them.
I've been focusing on being connected and responsive to my daughters. The past few weeks not working and being with them 24-7 have been magical and the first time I felt confident in my ability to truly become the mother I want to be. I've had long stretches being the stay-at-home mom before -- prior to my current job I'd work short stints 2 weeks to 3 months and then take 6 months to a year off. I've spent so much time, money and energy trying to get to a zen place with being a parent, but only now with my growing understanding of radical Unschooling am I achieving it!
As for finally embracing radical Unschooling, I was getting stuck on a few things (and DH is not yet convinced): removing limits on TV and sweets and how socialization would happen. I was able to let these go as I read and researched the sites mentioned above and started to change how I was interacting with my strong-willed, assertive 4.5 year old. I worked on nurturing our connection, getting to "yes" more often and the results were more fun, more joy and more cooperation!
For all the parenting learning I've done thus far, radical Unschooling is the greatest paradigm shift for me. I'm eternally grateful but, to be honest, a little anxious about what this means for how much transition my family will go through next...as now I want to embrace radical Unschooling as best I can as soon as I can in how I'm living!
Sorry I'm rambling a bit, but this is all relevant to the input I'm asking for....Think of it as a "monkey platter" of things to chew on. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Here are the things I'm seeking input on:
1) What's the best way to get my DH exposed to experienced radical Unschoolers? He's a seeing is believing kind of guy. He's not likely going to read a book or a blog or join a discussion group. He's open-minded, but it takes him exposure and time to process what he thinks. Every step of our parenting journey, he's been reluctant to embrace my ideas, but once exposed and informed, he's grateful to have learned a new way of doing and being. I believe he will (eventually) embrace radical Unschooling, though he's already told me that he can't imagine Unschooling our two girls by himself full-time. Which leads me to my next issue --
2) I am currently working 60+ hour weeks and he's a stay-at-home dad. My job gets our health benefits and a great paycheck. My project ends in August and quitting before would put a huge black mark on my reputation. I work freelance in film editing. The recession plus technological advances have brought down wages and increased unemployment in my field. I could quit to unschool and ask DH to work, but my earning potential is higher and I get health and pension benefits while DH does not. If I were to quit, I'd have to anticipate that it may be very difficult to get work if/when I'd need it. My issue here is two-fold: If I wait to radically unschool until after my current project is over in August, while I will have savings (and health insurance) that will take care of us for a while, is that worth the potential damage not Unschooling will do in the meantime? And, if DH is not yet on board with Unschooling, is it more prudent to give him time to meet some Unschoolers and process it for himself before doing anything radically different? He definitely still has a pretty big "I'm your dad, you can't talk to me like that!" kind of knee-jerk parenting at times. He's aware of it and working on it, but he was raised by strict, controlling parents, so it's taking time, unfortunately.
3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?
4) DH wants to move forward with our private school applications even though I've told him that I think Unschooling is the best way to educate (and protect!) our kids. If we are still at odds about "kindergarten" when it's time to decide (spring), how does a decision get made where everyone can be ok with the outcome? Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wants to unschool?
5) I asked my 4.5 yo daughter about having family time all the time instead of going to school. She said that she'd like it if she could go to school maybe 2 days a week and spend the rest with our family. Her reference for school is free-play as I mentioned above. We haven't yet wholeheartedly unschooled where I'm 100% present and actively feeding her interest. I think I can make home more interesting than even her play-based school but she doesn't yet have a truly unschooly day to measure school against.
She is extroverted (she gains energy engaging with others) and will introduce herself to potential playmates immediately when she gets to a playground. I doubt any of the other kids who will graduate from her preschool will unschool or Homeschool next year. How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year?
6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?
I know I've brought up a lot, and I don't expect feedback on it all. Any unschooly, experienced wisdom would be greatly appreciated...
Peace,
Ceci Hyoun
P.S. Signed my full name as a response to Sandra's point about anonymity. If I never understood radical Unschooling, or no one made an issue of anonymity, I probably would have never signed my complete name. I treat forums like a town hall meeting -- a good conversation may lead to giving my full name, but most times, even my first name may not be shared.
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
Sandra Dodd
-=-Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wants to unschool?-=-
None of them.
The marriage needs to be more important to you than unschooling. Because the next less likely way to unschool is after a divorce.
Maybe you could put them in a school next year while you finish this job, and while your husband finds a job so you can stay with the girls, or maybe you could point out how much money will be saved if your husband (who is at home) unschools the girls just for one year. One good, solid year, and he'll be sold on it. But you could point out that every time he "teaches," the year starts over. Unschooling can't happen until the things that keep it from happening cease.
If the kids go to school, though, while you're looking at and researching unschooling, you could use what's actually happening in school as examples to use to decide against school.
The best way for him to see other families is to go to conferences.
-=-And, if DH is not yet on board with Unschooling, is it more prudent to give him time to meet some Unschoolers and process it for himself before doing anything radically different? He definitely still has a pretty big "I'm your dad, you can't talk to me like that!" kind of knee-jerk parenting at times. He's aware of it and working on it, but he was raised by strict, controlling parents, so it's taking time, unfortunately.-=-
Maybe get Rue Kream's book, about parenting. Put it in the bathroom. Each page is freestanding.
It's linked from here:
http://sandradodd.com/books (righthand column)
-=-3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?-=-
During the "battle of wills" (if by that you mean during an altercation), you can't very well advocate for her without taking her side against him. That's not going toward partnerships.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
-=-How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year? -=-
If you homeschool her when she would rather go to school, you cause the same sort of damage that is caused by a child being made to go to school when she wants to stay home. She is made powerless. She is not where she would prefer to be.
If she goes to school, maybe she will decide on her own that she would rather be home, and that gives you time to finish your project, gives your husband time to read Rue's book and meet some unschoolers, and keeps your marriage more peaceful.
-=-6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=-
Please avoid constructs like "getting on the unschool bus." Its divisive. We're not all on one bus together, we are, each family, living in a way that isn't school-centered, and eventually isn't regardant of school at all.
-=-I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool.-=-
You have a contract. You can't travel yet.
Does your husband want "a grand travel year"? Your kids are very young and might not even remember half (or any, in the case of the younger child) of what you see and do.
-=- How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=--=-
Please expand on your question. Desire to go? Desire to stay home and go to school? Willingness to spend three hours in an art museum? Preference for swimming over historical sites? More info, please. It's a good question, but I don't know what you were envisioning when you asked it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
None of them.
The marriage needs to be more important to you than unschooling. Because the next less likely way to unschool is after a divorce.
Maybe you could put them in a school next year while you finish this job, and while your husband finds a job so you can stay with the girls, or maybe you could point out how much money will be saved if your husband (who is at home) unschools the girls just for one year. One good, solid year, and he'll be sold on it. But you could point out that every time he "teaches," the year starts over. Unschooling can't happen until the things that keep it from happening cease.
If the kids go to school, though, while you're looking at and researching unschooling, you could use what's actually happening in school as examples to use to decide against school.
The best way for him to see other families is to go to conferences.
-=-And, if DH is not yet on board with Unschooling, is it more prudent to give him time to meet some Unschoolers and process it for himself before doing anything radically different? He definitely still has a pretty big "I'm your dad, you can't talk to me like that!" kind of knee-jerk parenting at times. He's aware of it and working on it, but he was raised by strict, controlling parents, so it's taking time, unfortunately.-=-
Maybe get Rue Kream's book, about parenting. Put it in the bathroom. Each page is freestanding.
It's linked from here:
http://sandradodd.com/books (righthand column)
-=-3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?-=-
During the "battle of wills" (if by that you mean during an altercation), you can't very well advocate for her without taking her side against him. That's not going toward partnerships.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
-=-How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year? -=-
If you homeschool her when she would rather go to school, you cause the same sort of damage that is caused by a child being made to go to school when she wants to stay home. She is made powerless. She is not where she would prefer to be.
If she goes to school, maybe she will decide on her own that she would rather be home, and that gives you time to finish your project, gives your husband time to read Rue's book and meet some unschoolers, and keeps your marriage more peaceful.
-=-6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=-
Please avoid constructs like "getting on the unschool bus." Its divisive. We're not all on one bus together, we are, each family, living in a way that isn't school-centered, and eventually isn't regardant of school at all.
-=-I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool.-=-
You have a contract. You can't travel yet.
Does your husband want "a grand travel year"? Your kids are very young and might not even remember half (or any, in the case of the younger child) of what you see and do.
-=- How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=--=-
Please expand on your question. Desire to go? Desire to stay home and go to school? Willingness to spend three hours in an art museum? Preference for swimming over historical sites? More info, please. It's a good question, but I don't know what you were envisioning when you asked it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Carolyn
Hi Ceci,
I just want to second what Sandra said about going to the conferences. We live in a rural community in northern Nevada and there is very little support for unschooling in these parts. My husband, who has always been pro-homeschooling was a little concerned about the drift toward unschooling that was going on in our home. Until we attended the Rethinking Education (now Rethinking Everything!) conference in Texas 2 years ago. We went back again last year and will probably keep going back until something prevents us from doing so. Being face to face with such an incredible group of free thinkers and doers is a remarkably validating experience. If you can get your DH to go, it's a really good opportunity for him to see radically unschooled kids (and adults!) of all ages. There are also many workshops which address those FAQ's. RE is the only conference I've been to, but I know there are more out there. It was pivotal for our whole family. Highly recommended!
Carolyn
I just want to second what Sandra said about going to the conferences. We live in a rural community in northern Nevada and there is very little support for unschooling in these parts. My husband, who has always been pro-homeschooling was a little concerned about the drift toward unschooling that was going on in our home. Until we attended the Rethinking Education (now Rethinking Everything!) conference in Texas 2 years ago. We went back again last year and will probably keep going back until something prevents us from doing so. Being face to face with such an incredible group of free thinkers and doers is a remarkably validating experience. If you can get your DH to go, it's a really good opportunity for him to see radically unschooled kids (and adults!) of all ages. There are also many workshops which address those FAQ's. RE is the only conference I've been to, but I know there are more out there. It was pivotal for our whole family. Highly recommended!
Carolyn
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wants to unschool?-=-
> None of them.
>
> The marriage needs to be more important to you than unschooling. Because the next less likely way to unschool is after a divorce.
>
> Maybe you could put them in a school next year while you finish this job, and while your husband finds a job so you can stay with the girls, or maybe you could point out how much money will be saved if your husband (who is at home) unschools the girls just for one year. One good, solid year, and he'll be sold on it. But you could point out that every time he "teaches," the year starts over. Unschooling can't happen until the things that keep it from happening cease.
>
> If the kids go to school, though, while you're looking at and researching unschooling, you could use what's actually happening in school as examples to use to decide against school.
>
>
> The best way for him to see other families is to go to conferences.
>
> -=-And, if DH is not yet on board with Unschooling, is it more prudent to give him time to meet some Unschoolers and process it for himself before doing anything radically different? He definitely still has a pretty big "I'm your dad, you can't talk to me like that!" kind of knee-jerk parenting at times. He's aware of it and working on it, but he was raised by strict, controlling parents, so it's taking time, unfortunately.-=-
>
> Maybe get Rue Kream's book, about parenting. Put it in the bathroom. Each page is freestanding.
> It's linked from here:
> http://sandradodd.com/books (righthand column)
>
> -=-3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?-=-
>
> During the "battle of wills" (if by that you mean during an altercation), you can't very well advocate for her without taking her side against him. That's not going toward partnerships.
> http://sandradodd.com/partners
>
> -=-How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year? -=-
>
> If you homeschool her when she would rather go to school, you cause the same sort of damage that is caused by a child being made to go to school when she wants to stay home. She is made powerless. She is not where she would prefer to be.
>
> If she goes to school, maybe she will decide on her own that she would rather be home, and that gives you time to finish your project, gives your husband time to read Rue's book and meet some unschoolers, and keeps your marriage more peaceful.
>
> -=-6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=-
>
> Please avoid constructs like "getting on the unschool bus." Its divisive. We're not all on one bus together, we are, each family, living in a way that isn't school-centered, and eventually isn't regardant of school at all.
>
> -=-I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool.-=-
>
> You have a contract. You can't travel yet.
>
> Does your husband want "a grand travel year"? Your kids are very young and might not even remember half (or any, in the case of the younger child) of what you see and do.
>
> -=- How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=--=-
>
> Please expand on your question. Desire to go? Desire to stay home and go to school? Willingness to spend three hours in an art museum? Preference for swimming over historical sites? More info, please. It's a good question, but I don't know what you were envisioning when you asked it.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Kelly Lovejoy
Good Vibrations Unschooling Conference in San Diego in September is closer and will have many of the posters and readers of *this* list there.
Also, if you're up for a drive: LIFE is Good is in May in Vancouver, Washington.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn <nevadafiddler@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Ah-ha! Now what? (long post...!)
Hi Ceci,
I just want to second what Sandra said about going to the conferences. We live
in a rural community in northern Nevada and there is very little support for
unschooling in these parts. My husband, who has always been pro-homeschooling
was a little concerned about the drift toward unschooling that was going on in
our home. Until we attended the Rethinking Education (now Rethinking
Everything!) conference in Texas 2 years ago. We went back again last year and
will probably keep going back until something prevents us from doing so. Being
face to face with such an incredible group of free thinkers and doers is a
remarkably validating experience. If you can get your DH to go, it's a really
good opportunity for him to see radically unschooled kids (and adults!) of all
ages. There are also many workshops which address those FAQ's. RE is the only
conference I've been to, but I know there are more out there. It was pivotal for
our whole family. Highly recommended!
Carolyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, if you're up for a drive: LIFE is Good is in May in Vancouver, Washington.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn <nevadafiddler@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Ah-ha! Now what? (long post...!)
Hi Ceci,
I just want to second what Sandra said about going to the conferences. We live
in a rural community in northern Nevada and there is very little support for
unschooling in these parts. My husband, who has always been pro-homeschooling
was a little concerned about the drift toward unschooling that was going on in
our home. Until we attended the Rethinking Education (now Rethinking
Everything!) conference in Texas 2 years ago. We went back again last year and
will probably keep going back until something prevents us from doing so. Being
face to face with such an incredible group of free thinkers and doers is a
remarkably validating experience. If you can get your DH to go, it's a really
good opportunity for him to see radically unschooled kids (and adults!) of all
ages. There are also many workshops which address those FAQ's. RE is the only
conference I've been to, but I know there are more out there. It was pivotal for
our whole family. Highly recommended!
Carolyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
***************
The parent valuing unschooling would need to be the one spending the bulk of the time with the kids *and* very likely doing things to help the other partner feel valued and taken seriously. Otherwise, if your dh goes on being the at-home parent without understanding/valuing unschooling, then there's no real unschooling going on. At best (?), he's trying to follow a set of rules you've laid down for him and likely resisting them somewhat.
What sorts of things do they tend to battle over? Can you help set them up to not have those conflicts? That's going to be tricky, if you're not on-hand much of the time.
---Meredith
>Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wantsto unschool?
***************
The parent valuing unschooling would need to be the one spending the bulk of the time with the kids *and* very likely doing things to help the other partner feel valued and taken seriously. Otherwise, if your dh goes on being the at-home parent without understanding/valuing unschooling, then there's no real unschooling going on. At best (?), he's trying to follow a set of rules you've laid down for him and likely resisting them somewhat.
> 3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?****************
What sorts of things do they tend to battle over? Can you help set them up to not have those conflicts? That's going to be tricky, if you're not on-hand much of the time.
---Meredith
catfish_friend
Sandra -- thank you for your thoughtful response.
*********
My marriage is more important than Unschooling in the sense that if DH were adamantly opposed to Unschooling, I would not unschool our kids. To clarify my question, is it enough if he supports the idea of me unschooling, though he doesn't completely embrace it for himself, yet? I'm trying to figure out if DH were to continue wielding his authority over our children but I was continually working on connection and collaboration with the kids -- could I potentially be doing more harm than good? I mean, wouldn't it be confusing to have one parent working on connection while the other is still attempting to maintain authority and control?
DH is warming up to the idea of Unschooling. He and I are in agreement about not wanting our children graded, tested, labeled, punished, praised, assigned homework...we also don't want the kids to have information shoved down their throats. But some of our current differences are: I am letting go of gentle discipline/control/manipulation, I don't believe in single age peer groupings for socialization and I am letting go of the idea that I know what the best choices are for my kids.
DH is a believer in gentle, positive discipline, especially when it comes to limiting both TV and sweets. He sometimes asserts his needs and/or wants at the expense of the girls even *expressing* what they need and want. That's been my observation on occasion and I'm not sure if he really recognizes this pattern yet.
My job is supposed to be done at the end of summer, but it may go to the fall. Tonight, DH and i discussed him working when I'm done with this job so that I can stay home and unschool our girls. How much of Unschooling would he have to embrace if he were working part-time but I was the one at home all the time?
*********
One good, solid year, and he'll be sold on it. But you could point out that every time he "teaches," the year starts over. Unschooling can't happen until the things that keep it from happening cease.
*********
Do you have a blog about "teaching"? I'd love more detail on what "teaching" entails...it will help me deepen my understanding of unschooling.
*********
If the kids go to school, though, while you're looking at and researching unschooling, you could use what's actually happening in school as examples to use to decide against school.
*********
We went on another progressive, private school tour today and it was a great jumping off point to discuss how Unschooling is what we are seeking, not just a revision of a broken institution of education. And discussing affording $17.8K/yr-$25K/yr. for something that isn't even close to what we'd seek for educating our children is definitely helping DH to really consider Unschooling as a practical option, too!
*********
What's the best resource for getting info on conferences?
*********
Ordered it. Along with The Big Book of Unschooling. Nice to strew for DH :)
*********
I'm wondering about when DH won't even let my eldest speak for herself. When it's clear that DH and DD want things that seem to be in opposition but DH is saying that it's his way and that's that, not even giving DD the opportunity to express her desires...I feel like I should be able to support DD to speak her mind at least and not get shut down. Maybe this is in the hope that DH "hears" DD and can reconsider his response...or to buy time to find a solution where they both get what they're seeking...?
*********
But "school" to her is based on her experience of a home-based place of free play where she's free to do what she wants while there. Any kindergarten I know of near us is nothing like this. It will be a rude awakening to see what "real" school is in kindergarten. And I only know of one school (a multiple-age classroom constuctivist charter that will open next fall) that allows attendance only 2 days a week. It's a hybrid 2-2.5 day school that allows 2.5-3 days offsite for families that homeschool. But this is not about Unschooling...
Is it better to let her try out "school" and give her the option to unschool? Private schools ask for a contract for the year with nonrefundable deposits. I suppose I could sign her up for public so that the financial impact, if she quit school, would be less. But if I want to support her desire for school, should I pick the one that she's most likely to enjoy, even if it has a huge price tag? I do see your point, though -- no one knows what DD wants school-wise unless she's given the choice to begin with!
*********
Our family has a Eurovan and we've been plotting a grand roadtrip since we bought it about a year ago. I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to our family's bus -- but no one would know that! I do see your point.
Ironically, DH and I were discussing tonight how Unschooling is kind of a misnomer as the philosophy isn't about school per se. The word "Unschooling" doesn't even come close to explaining what it is, only what it is not, which is everything besides school. Actually, that kind of is what it is ;)
*********
DH sorely wants to travel. And we have family 3000 miles away that we would spend more time with if we could afford it. I'd argue that our girls, as young as they are, remember their travels quite well as they always involve relationships with people they love to spend time with doing things they love (playing at the beach, bodyboarding, biking, baking, making art). The kind of travel year I'm imagining might involve some sightseeing, I'd hope (for my benefit!), but we usually plan all our adventures with what the kids would enjoy most in mind as that's what ends up being the most fun for us all. And DH and I both prefer travel where we are connected to experience things with locals in the know so that we experience a day in the life of a place rather than a tourist kind of experience.
*********
DH and I would love to go to a foreign country or, even several. We travelled once to the UK when we had only one DD but that was for work. Though we had no relatives there and no friends for DD, my daughter talks about it like it was the best time in her life. She was 2.5, I was pregnant, was told to lie down as much as possible, to walk as little as possible, so i hardly took her out. We were there for fall and freezing winter, DH was working ALL the time -- we hardly spent time with him. I also had to painfully wean her unexpectedly which was heartwrenching. But DD and I did everything together. We baked and played in toystores and wandered around a freezing outdoor nighttime Winter Wonderland fair, swam (DH's boss had a heated indoor pool!) and painted A LOT. I remember taking her to a library storytime for kids where one of the reading adults tried to make DD play an instrument that went with the story. Neither DD nor I liked that. I don't know how much of a "cultural" experience it was for DD, or even how much of it she'll remember, but I wonder if we went to New Zealand or Australia and enjoyed each other's company while exploring a bit, if we could (adults and children) both get a wonderful experience out of it.
I do know that my girls get homesick, though. Since we have family in DC and Philly and we live in LA, we make a 2-3 week trip to both cities everytime we go to the east coast. It's never enough time to really relax into it and really just enough to see all the relatives. By the time we come back home, the girls are soooo happy to be in their home with their stuff and in our bed.
I wonder if international travel is a bit much to put on them, and/or if traveling longer than they're accustomed to is fair to them at this stage.
The other thing I've considered is immersing ourselves in a country where they either speak Spanish or Korean (DH's and my linguistic heritages, respectively) as a way to expose our girls to those languages and cultures...
Thanks for reading my tome! Next time I post a question, I'll leave it to one at a time! I was just so eager to get going since my mind just cracked opened wiiiiide for Unschooling!
Cheers,
Cecil
*********
> -=-Under what circumstances can Unschooling work if only one parent wants to unschool?-=-*********
>
> None of them.
>
> The marriage needs to be more important to you than unschooling. Because the next less likely way to unschool is after a divorce.
>
My marriage is more important than Unschooling in the sense that if DH were adamantly opposed to Unschooling, I would not unschool our kids. To clarify my question, is it enough if he supports the idea of me unschooling, though he doesn't completely embrace it for himself, yet? I'm trying to figure out if DH were to continue wielding his authority over our children but I was continually working on connection and collaboration with the kids -- could I potentially be doing more harm than good? I mean, wouldn't it be confusing to have one parent working on connection while the other is still attempting to maintain authority and control?
DH is warming up to the idea of Unschooling. He and I are in agreement about not wanting our children graded, tested, labeled, punished, praised, assigned homework...we also don't want the kids to have information shoved down their throats. But some of our current differences are: I am letting go of gentle discipline/control/manipulation, I don't believe in single age peer groupings for socialization and I am letting go of the idea that I know what the best choices are for my kids.
DH is a believer in gentle, positive discipline, especially when it comes to limiting both TV and sweets. He sometimes asserts his needs and/or wants at the expense of the girls even *expressing* what they need and want. That's been my observation on occasion and I'm not sure if he really recognizes this pattern yet.
My job is supposed to be done at the end of summer, but it may go to the fall. Tonight, DH and i discussed him working when I'm done with this job so that I can stay home and unschool our girls. How much of Unschooling would he have to embrace if he were working part-time but I was the one at home all the time?
*********
One good, solid year, and he'll be sold on it. But you could point out that every time he "teaches," the year starts over. Unschooling can't happen until the things that keep it from happening cease.
*********
Do you have a blog about "teaching"? I'd love more detail on what "teaching" entails...it will help me deepen my understanding of unschooling.
*********
If the kids go to school, though, while you're looking at and researching unschooling, you could use what's actually happening in school as examples to use to decide against school.
*********
We went on another progressive, private school tour today and it was a great jumping off point to discuss how Unschooling is what we are seeking, not just a revision of a broken institution of education. And discussing affording $17.8K/yr-$25K/yr. for something that isn't even close to what we'd seek for educating our children is definitely helping DH to really consider Unschooling as a practical option, too!
*********
> The best way for him to see other families is to go to conferences.*********
>
What's the best resource for getting info on conferences?
*********
> Maybe get Rue Kream's book, about parenting.*********
>
Ordered it. Along with The Big Book of Unschooling. Nice to strew for DH :)
*********
> -=-3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?-=-*********
>
> During the "battle of wills" (if by that you mean during an altercation), you can't very well advocate for her without taking her side against him. That's not going toward partnerships.
> http://sandradodd.com/partners
>
>
I'm wondering about when DH won't even let my eldest speak for herself. When it's clear that DH and DD want things that seem to be in opposition but DH is saying that it's his way and that's that, not even giving DD the opportunity to express her desires...I feel like I should be able to support DD to speak her mind at least and not get shut down. Maybe this is in the hope that DH "hears" DD and can reconsider his response...or to buy time to find a solution where they both get what they're seeking...?
*********
> -=-How do I address her desire for "school" and explain what we will be doing next year? -=-*********
>
> If you homeschool her when she would rather go to school, you cause the same sort of damage that is caused by a child being made to go to school when she wants to stay home. She is made powerless. She is not where she would prefer to be.
>
But "school" to her is based on her experience of a home-based place of free play where she's free to do what she wants while there. Any kindergarten I know of near us is nothing like this. It will be a rude awakening to see what "real" school is in kindergarten. And I only know of one school (a multiple-age classroom constuctivist charter that will open next fall) that allows attendance only 2 days a week. It's a hybrid 2-2.5 day school that allows 2.5-3 days offsite for families that homeschool. But this is not about Unschooling...
Is it better to let her try out "school" and give her the option to unschool? Private schools ask for a contract for the year with nonrefundable deposits. I suppose I could sign her up for public so that the financial impact, if she quit school, would be less. But if I want to support her desire for school, should I pick the one that she's most likely to enjoy, even if it has a huge price tag? I do see your point, though -- no one knows what DD wants school-wise unless she's given the choice to begin with!
*********
>*********
> -=-6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=-
>
> Please avoid constructs like "getting on the unschool bus." Its divisive. We're not all on one bus together, we are, each family, living in a way that isn't school-centered, and eventually isn't regardant of school at all.
>
Our family has a Eurovan and we've been plotting a grand roadtrip since we bought it about a year ago. I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to our family's bus -- but no one would know that! I do see your point.
Ironically, DH and I were discussing tonight how Unschooling is kind of a misnomer as the philosophy isn't about school per se. The word "Unschooling" doesn't even come close to explaining what it is, only what it is not, which is everything besides school. Actually, that kind of is what it is ;)
*********
>*********
> -=-I'd like a grand travel year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool.-=-
>
> You have a contract. You can't travel yet.
>
> Does your husband want "a grand travel year"? Your kids are very young and might not even remember half (or any, in the case of the younger child) of what you see and do.
>
>
DH sorely wants to travel. And we have family 3000 miles away that we would spend more time with if we could afford it. I'd argue that our girls, as young as they are, remember their travels quite well as they always involve relationships with people they love to spend time with doing things they love (playing at the beach, bodyboarding, biking, baking, making art). The kind of travel year I'm imagining might involve some sightseeing, I'd hope (for my benefit!), but we usually plan all our adventures with what the kids would enjoy most in mind as that's what ends up being the most fun for us all. And DH and I both prefer travel where we are connected to experience things with locals in the know so that we experience a day in the life of a place rather than a tourist kind of experience.
*********
> -=- How much do you consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?-=--=-*********
>
> Please expand on your question. Desire to go? Desire to stay home and go to school? Willingness to spend three hours in an art museum? Preference for swimming over historical sites? More info, please. It's a good question, but I don't know what you were envisioning when you asked it.
>
>
DH and I would love to go to a foreign country or, even several. We travelled once to the UK when we had only one DD but that was for work. Though we had no relatives there and no friends for DD, my daughter talks about it like it was the best time in her life. She was 2.5, I was pregnant, was told to lie down as much as possible, to walk as little as possible, so i hardly took her out. We were there for fall and freezing winter, DH was working ALL the time -- we hardly spent time with him. I also had to painfully wean her unexpectedly which was heartwrenching. But DD and I did everything together. We baked and played in toystores and wandered around a freezing outdoor nighttime Winter Wonderland fair, swam (DH's boss had a heated indoor pool!) and painted A LOT. I remember taking her to a library storytime for kids where one of the reading adults tried to make DD play an instrument that went with the story. Neither DD nor I liked that. I don't know how much of a "cultural" experience it was for DD, or even how much of it she'll remember, but I wonder if we went to New Zealand or Australia and enjoyed each other's company while exploring a bit, if we could (adults and children) both get a wonderful experience out of it.
I do know that my girls get homesick, though. Since we have family in DC and Philly and we live in LA, we make a 2-3 week trip to both cities everytime we go to the east coast. It's never enough time to really relax into it and really just enough to see all the relatives. By the time we come back home, the girls are soooo happy to be in their home with their stuff and in our bed.
I wonder if international travel is a bit much to put on them, and/or if traveling longer than they're accustomed to is fair to them at this stage.
The other thing I've considered is immersing ourselves in a country where they either speak Spanish or Korean (DH's and my linguistic heritages, respectively) as a way to expose our girls to those languages and cultures...
Thanks for reading my tome! Next time I post a question, I'll leave it to one at a time! I was just so eager to get going since my mind just cracked opened wiiiiide for Unschooling!
Cheers,
Cecil
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 7, 2011, at 7:03 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
something along the lines that you've been thinking that each time
there's a disagreement it's an opportunity to model how to solve
differences between two people. But that each time we make the kids do
what we want, we show them how to get their way by being bigger and
stronger and making people obey. Figuring out ways for two people to
work out their differences respectfully is so hard most adults haven't
figured it out. And it's probably because they rarely get the
opportunity to see it in action. Mostly all they experience is being
forced to do what a more powerful person wants or being the more
powerful person who makes other people agree.
He may want to talk about it. Or maybe not. But let it go. Let it be a
seed. And then you model problem solving with the kids. And let him
work at it at his own pace.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm wondering about when DH won't even let my eldest speak forCan you talk to him at some time away from an altercation. Say
> herself. When it's clear that DH and DD want things that seem to be
> in opposition but DH is saying that it's his way and that's that,
> not even giving DD the opportunity to express her desires
something along the lines that you've been thinking that each time
there's a disagreement it's an opportunity to model how to solve
differences between two people. But that each time we make the kids do
what we want, we show them how to get their way by being bigger and
stronger and making people obey. Figuring out ways for two people to
work out their differences respectfully is so hard most adults haven't
figured it out. And it's probably because they rarely get the
opportunity to see it in action. Mostly all they experience is being
forced to do what a more powerful person wants or being the more
powerful person who makes other people agree.
He may want to talk about it. Or maybe not. But let it go. Let it be a
seed. And then you model problem solving with the kids. And let him
work at it at his own pace.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
I have a few thoughts that may be helpful:
-----3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a
way that brings more connection to all?------
One of the ways I've been able to help my husband be kinder and gentler with our daughter and his older 14 yr old, is to ask him to think about how he would have wanted his parents to act in any given situation, what would he have wanted them to do differently?
I've said things like: Imagine you're a six year old who is scared to go upstairs on your own; would you have wanted your dad to tell you to get over it, that there is nothing to be afraid of, or to just go with you, joyfully, without shaming.
Along the lines of Joyce's suggestion, perhaps ask him how he hopes your daughters will be in the world--how can he help them get there?
(my brother, who is not a parent, is reading "Parenting from the Inside Out," which seems to address this (I haven't read it yet)--anyone here read it? He says it has had a profound impact on him, realizing how he *is* our parents, even in his uncle-hood)
----6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel
year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you
consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?------
Sandra suggested that older children may get more out of a "grand travel" year than such young ones, and I'd agree. For us, though, traveling is less desirable for our daughter the older she gets because she has become more entrenched with her social ties at home. We traveled a lot (international and domestic), for extended periods of time, throughout her life and until this past summer, she loved it, although doesn't remember that much about the places we only went to once. This summer, though, when a three month working-vacation turned into 5 months, it became unpleasant for her. When 5 months could have become 7 months, we said "no thanks," and came home. Not because we were done, but because *she* was. She missed her family and her friends, her dog and cats. She didn't want to leave home for weeks after our return!
She is still game to travel, just not for extended periods of time. If you're not traveling for dire financial reasons (as in you can't find work any place else), but for enjoyment, I'd take your daughter's expressed desires to heart. I think we could have seriously damaged our daughter's trust in us to help her get what she wants and needs had we stayed away any longer.
That said, it has definitely been preferable to travel to one place and stay put for some time, so that place becomes like "home." A lot of our travels have been to visit relatives overseas, and these are the trips she loves and remembers.
Traveling also seems like it could be a gentle segue into unschooling for someone who is hesitant because strange/new experiences can heighten the awareness that living *is* learning.
As for school--can she visit a more traditional classroom for a day? That may be enough information for her to make a choice.
Brie
-----3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a
way that brings more connection to all?------
One of the ways I've been able to help my husband be kinder and gentler with our daughter and his older 14 yr old, is to ask him to think about how he would have wanted his parents to act in any given situation, what would he have wanted them to do differently?
I've said things like: Imagine you're a six year old who is scared to go upstairs on your own; would you have wanted your dad to tell you to get over it, that there is nothing to be afraid of, or to just go with you, joyfully, without shaming.
Along the lines of Joyce's suggestion, perhaps ask him how he hopes your daughters will be in the world--how can he help them get there?
(my brother, who is not a parent, is reading "Parenting from the Inside Out," which seems to address this (I haven't read it yet)--anyone here read it? He says it has had a profound impact on him, realizing how he *is* our parents, even in his uncle-hood)
----6) If DH gets on the unschool bus sooner than later, I'd like a grand travel
year for "kindergarten" rather than stay at home and unschool. How much do you
consider your child's expressed desires in planning big trips?------
Sandra suggested that older children may get more out of a "grand travel" year than such young ones, and I'd agree. For us, though, traveling is less desirable for our daughter the older she gets because she has become more entrenched with her social ties at home. We traveled a lot (international and domestic), for extended periods of time, throughout her life and until this past summer, she loved it, although doesn't remember that much about the places we only went to once. This summer, though, when a three month working-vacation turned into 5 months, it became unpleasant for her. When 5 months could have become 7 months, we said "no thanks," and came home. Not because we were done, but because *she* was. She missed her family and her friends, her dog and cats. She didn't want to leave home for weeks after our return!
She is still game to travel, just not for extended periods of time. If you're not traveling for dire financial reasons (as in you can't find work any place else), but for enjoyment, I'd take your daughter's expressed desires to heart. I think we could have seriously damaged our daughter's trust in us to help her get what she wants and needs had we stayed away any longer.
That said, it has definitely been preferable to travel to one place and stay put for some time, so that place becomes like "home." A lot of our travels have been to visit relatives overseas, and these are the trips she loves and remembers.
Traveling also seems like it could be a gentle segue into unschooling for someone who is hesitant because strange/new experiences can heighten the awareness that living *is* learning.
As for school--can she visit a more traditional classroom for a day? That may be enough information for her to make a choice.
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-. To clarify my question, is it enough if he supports the idea of me unschooling, though he doesn't completely embrace it for himself, yet? -=-
"Enough" suggests a stopping-and-resting place, or a final destination. The only thing that saves it is the "yet" at the end. :-)
If I want to get across town, is it enough that I'm in the car and two blocks toward that direction?
For some purposes that's better than not being in the car at all, but "enough" is a problem."
-=-I'm trying to figure out if DH were to continue wielding his authority over our children but I was continually working on connection and collaboration with the kids -- could I potentially be doing more harm than good? I mean, wouldn't it be confusing to have one parent working on connection while the other is still attempting to maintain authority and control?-=-
Not as confusing as two parents attempting to maintain authority and control while one of the parents has tears in her eyes, I guess.
Here's another judicious use of "yet":
-=-DH is a believer in gentle, positive discipline, especially when it comes to limiting both TV and sweets. He sometimes asserts his needs and/or wants at the expense of the girls even *expressing* what they need and want. That's been my observation on occasion and I'm not sure if he really recognizes this pattern yet.-=-
I think he will come to recognize it if you don't push so hard that he shuts down or pushes back. So it's important to move together, as much as possible, without the other person feeling railroaded, dragged along, overwhelmed.
Deschooling and its cousins show that the longer something is limited or disregarded, the longer it will take to come to equilibrium about it later. That does and will apply to TV and sweets. He can decide to never change, or decide to change a little, or to change more. But somewhere in there, recovery and natural learning should be considered.
If a child can learn about history without parental management of "the topic of history," can that child learn about nutrition and the media? If not... If so... Those questions should be discussed, a bit, sometimes, perhaps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Enough" suggests a stopping-and-resting place, or a final destination. The only thing that saves it is the "yet" at the end. :-)
If I want to get across town, is it enough that I'm in the car and two blocks toward that direction?
For some purposes that's better than not being in the car at all, but "enough" is a problem."
-=-I'm trying to figure out if DH were to continue wielding his authority over our children but I was continually working on connection and collaboration with the kids -- could I potentially be doing more harm than good? I mean, wouldn't it be confusing to have one parent working on connection while the other is still attempting to maintain authority and control?-=-
Not as confusing as two parents attempting to maintain authority and control while one of the parents has tears in her eyes, I guess.
Here's another judicious use of "yet":
-=-DH is a believer in gentle, positive discipline, especially when it comes to limiting both TV and sweets. He sometimes asserts his needs and/or wants at the expense of the girls even *expressing* what they need and want. That's been my observation on occasion and I'm not sure if he really recognizes this pattern yet.-=-
I think he will come to recognize it if you don't push so hard that he shuts down or pushes back. So it's important to move together, as much as possible, without the other person feeling railroaded, dragged along, overwhelmed.
Deschooling and its cousins show that the longer something is limited or disregarded, the longer it will take to come to equilibrium about it later. That does and will apply to TV and sweets. He can decide to never change, or decide to change a little, or to change more. But somewhere in there, recovery and natural learning should be considered.
If a child can learn about history without parental management of "the topic of history," can that child learn about nutrition and the media? If not... If so... Those questions should be discussed, a bit, sometimes, perhaps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===Though we had no relatives there and no friends for DD, my daughter talks about it like it was the best time in her life. She was 2.5, I was pregnant, was told to lie down as much as possible, to walk as little as possible, so i hardly took her out. We were there for fall and freezing winter, DH was working ALL the time -- we hardly spent time with him. I also had to painfully wean her unexpectedly which was heartwrenching. But DD and I did everything together. We baked and played in toystores and wandered around a freezing outdoor nighttime Winter Wonderland fair, swam (DH's boss had a heated indoor pool!) and painted A LOT. I remember taking her to a library storytime for kids where one of the reading adults tried to make DD play an instrument that went with the story. Neither DD nor I liked that. I don't know how much of a "cultural" experience it was for DD, or even how much of it she'll remember, but I wonder if we went to New Zealand or Australia and enjoyed each other's company while exploring a bit, if we could (adults and children) both get a wonderful experience out of it.===
What jumped out at me in that was: "DD and I did everything together." Perhaps *that* is why your daughter talks about it like it was the best time of her life! Not because you were away from home, but because *you*, because of circumstances (no friends or family there, hubby working all the time, you needing to take it easy because of your pregnancy), were able to focus so intently on her and spend so much time solely with her.
===I wonder if we went to New Zealand or Australia and enjoyed each other's company while exploring a bit, if we could (adults and children) both get a wonderful experience out of it=== [snip] ===I do know that my girls get homesick, though. [snip] By the time we come back home, the girls are soooo happy to be in their home with their stuff and in our bed.===
What about taking that perspective and applying it to where you are *right now*? If being away from home for 2-3 weeks is more than your daughters want, that should be a big consideration. Instead of planning a long trip far from home, what about shorter trips closer to home? You could explore your current city and state, for example.
===DH and I would love to go to a foreign country or, even several.===
Kids are kids for such a short period of time. Have you and your husband considered putting plans to travel to foreign countries on hold until (a) your children express the desire to travel like that (which they may or may not do during their childhoold) or (b) until they're grown?
Glenda
What jumped out at me in that was: "DD and I did everything together." Perhaps *that* is why your daughter talks about it like it was the best time of her life! Not because you were away from home, but because *you*, because of circumstances (no friends or family there, hubby working all the time, you needing to take it easy because of your pregnancy), were able to focus so intently on her and spend so much time solely with her.
===I wonder if we went to New Zealand or Australia and enjoyed each other's company while exploring a bit, if we could (adults and children) both get a wonderful experience out of it=== [snip] ===I do know that my girls get homesick, though. [snip] By the time we come back home, the girls are soooo happy to be in their home with their stuff and in our bed.===
What about taking that perspective and applying it to where you are *right now*? If being away from home for 2-3 weeks is more than your daughters want, that should be a big consideration. Instead of planning a long trip far from home, what about shorter trips closer to home? You could explore your current city and state, for example.
===DH and I would love to go to a foreign country or, even several.===
Kids are kids for such a short period of time. Have you and your husband considered putting plans to travel to foreign countries on hold until (a) your children express the desire to travel like that (which they may or may not do during their childhoold) or (b) until they're grown?
Glenda
catfish_friend
^_^_^_^_^_^_^
On Jan 5, 2011, at 12:07 PM, "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> > 3) When DH has a battle of wills with our eldest, how do I advocate for DD in a way that brings more connection to all?
> ****************
>
> What sorts of things do they tend to battle over? Can you help set them up to not have those conflicts? That's going to be tricky, if you're not on-hand much of the time.
^_^_^_^_^_^_^
They can fight over what seems like nothing. DD may be in a funk and then DH says something, could be anything to DD that seems harmless, but DD's bad mood escalates into, "Don't talk to me!" or even, "I hate you!". Then DH responds, "Don't talk to your father like that!". And the bickering goes back and forth until a distraction or my interrupting them occurs.
My theory is that DD has been tasting more choice and freedom from me and when DH doesn't give her the same choice and freedom, she gets mad at him. DH has always been more firm with DD than me and also much more an enforcer of rules and pre-determined consequences to things (the kids walk away from food, DH puts food away).
Until most recently, I always felt that DD responded to DH's "discipline" "well" (obediently). Now, I feel that it was in response to authoritarianism rather than joyful cooperation.
Often, their battles begin with DD challenging a rule or a preset consequence. I've been working on saying, "yes" more, or rather, I've been asking myself if what I used to enforce or keep scarcity of is really, truly important. Often, the answer is, no, it's not more important than feeding your interest right now and restoring your faith and your trust in me to be your loving parent!
It doesn't help DH that I work such long days. The girls miss me sorely (and I, them!) and the stress of the situation gets to us all at times, but especially the girls.
I definitely think I could help reduce the tension between DD and DH, but it requires being there more! And, that requires quitting my job.
This morning, my 22 month old who uses one or two words together at most, said to me, "Tay! Tay!". That's her shorthand for "stay". And all whilst tears are rolling down her cheeks. Heartbreaking.
I keep feeling like I should be home and that this separation is damaging my relationship with my 22 month old. She's still nursing and I feel this must be terribly unfair to her that her mom and a food/nurturance/comfort source leave her everyday for 12 hours/day.
I feel like if DH were more unschooly, then i could relax and just work while he unschools the kids. Until DH truly gets it, I have felt that I would unschool "better". I do recognize that
otherstar
>>>>They can fight over what seems like nothing. DD may be in a funk and then DH says something, could be anything to DD that seems harmless, but DD's bad mood escalates into, "Don't talk to me!" or even, "I hate you!". Then DH responds, "Don't talk to your father like that!". And the bickering goes back and forth until a distraction or my interrupting them occurs.<<<<You are talking about a 4.5 year old. At 4.5, kids are exiting the toddler years and are becoming more independent and are expressing themselves much more forcefully. I seem to recall 4.5 being around the age where my girls were finally tall enough and strong enough to do a lot more for themselves. Their verbal skills also exploded, which led to them having a lot more to say. Is this a problem with your husband being firm or is it the fact that your daughter is trying to assert some of her new found independence?
>>>>My theory is that DD has been tasting more choice and freedom from me and when DH doesn't give her the same choice and freedom, she gets mad at him. DH has always been more firm with DD than me and also much more an enforcer of rules and pre-determined consequences to things (the kids walk away from food, DH puts food away).<<<<What does your husband think? Have you talked to him about this? What does she do while you are at work?
>>>>I definitely think I could help reduce the tension between DD and DH, but it requires being there more! And, that requires quitting my job.<<<<How do they manage while you are gone? Are your children happy and healthy for the most part? Have you considered that the tension is a result of you and your attitude? I am with my girls all day, every day and sometimes there is tension when my husband is home because we get into a rhythm and my husband coming home changes the dynamic. He does things differently than I do (not better or worse, different). You have said that you work 12 hour days. How much time do you actually get to spend with your children each day? One way that you could help reduce the tension is to give your husband the evenings off so that most of your daughter's interactions are with you. Sometimes there is tension because my girls want my husband's attention but don't always know how to get it. If picking a fight with your husband get's your attention, then try to give your daughter attention before she gets a chance to pick a fight.
Does your husband get to go out? Maybe you can encourage him to go out or do stuff for himself so that you can have more one on one time with the kids. Being a stay at home parent can take a toll on a person, especially with two children as young as yours. Any time one parent wants to do something different from another, it can be stressful. Kids can sense the lack of unity and it can cause a lot of confusion and tension.
>>>>I feel like if DH were more unschooly, then i could relax and just work while he unschools the kids. Until DH truly gets it, I have felt that I would unschool "better". I do recognize that<<<<Think about this from your husband's perspective. You have more earning potential and provide the financial support. Now, you have found a way to raise your children that you feel is superior to his ways. It sounds like you think you can do everything better than your spouse. That must be really emasculating for him. Why does he have to be more unschooly? Nobody has to unschool. Why isn't it enough for you to unschool your interactions with him and your children? How does your husband feel about no limits on TV and food? What kind of input have you sought from him? He has said that he wants to continue with the school applications but you have shot him down. Have you looked at the age for compulsory attendance in your state? In many states, kindergarten isn't mandatory.
I can't tell you the number of times that I have read posts from a stay at home parent that says that it should be her/his decision because she/he is the one that is with the children all the time. How would you feel if your husband said this to you?
Some other things to consider are whether or not your husband wants to work. If he wants to work and you want to be home, then it might be time for the two of you to sit down and talk about how to make things work so that both of you are doing what you really want to do. Earning potential isn't as important as everybody being happy. If you and your husband and your children aren't happy with the current arrangement, then try to find ways to change things so that everybody will be happy. You mentioned a grand year of travel for kindergarten. Why can't you save that money so that you can be with your children at home? Do all of the jobs in your field require you to work such long hours? My husband wanted more time with the family so he spent several years looking for a job that would pay the bills and allow him to be home a lot. He doesn't have to work nights or weekends and his work week is 39 hours plus he gets a lot of vacation time. He took a pay cut but we found ways to make it work. As I read your post, I wondered why you have a partner because it sounds like you are the one calling all of the shots, which is not very unschooly. : -)
Connie
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plaidpanties666
catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
It may be more peaceful for you to step away from the idea of unschooling for awhile. I don't mean that *you* need to adopt the same parenting strategies as your dh, but to focus on your own relationships and with supporting the people you love in who they are. You dh, like most parents new to home-ed, is likely floundering along, trying to figure out what he really thinks. It doesn't help him to have you dissing his parenting - even gently and behind his back.
When we were still new to unschooling, it helped George and my relationship with George to focus on what I loved about him, what I saw as wonderful about him as a person. A lot of that had to do with the way he is as a parent - but I couldn't see that when I was focusing on where he was falling short of my expectations. When I could see George as a loving father, trying to be patient and thoughtful and kind and unsure if he was "getting it right" it was easier for me to appreciate him and love him and thus support him in his own goals for his relationship with the kids. That let him be softer with the kids - a whole lot of his hardness came from uncertainty and I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of a lot of men. They're raised to bludgeon their way past uncertainty so they can be Men. It helped George a lot for him to know he could be soft and even vulnerable and unsure around me, that I wouldn't think less of him, that I adored every bit of softness he had to offer - but for him to trust that, *I* had to be soft, even when I was as sure as I could be. He needed me to be gentle and supportive while he figured out how to be a different kind of dad - and man - than what he was raised to.
---Meredith
>> I feel like if DH were more unschooly, then i could relax and just work while he unschools the kids. Until DH truly gets it, I have felt that I would unschool "better".*****************
It may be more peaceful for you to step away from the idea of unschooling for awhile. I don't mean that *you* need to adopt the same parenting strategies as your dh, but to focus on your own relationships and with supporting the people you love in who they are. You dh, like most parents new to home-ed, is likely floundering along, trying to figure out what he really thinks. It doesn't help him to have you dissing his parenting - even gently and behind his back.
When we were still new to unschooling, it helped George and my relationship with George to focus on what I loved about him, what I saw as wonderful about him as a person. A lot of that had to do with the way he is as a parent - but I couldn't see that when I was focusing on where he was falling short of my expectations. When I could see George as a loving father, trying to be patient and thoughtful and kind and unsure if he was "getting it right" it was easier for me to appreciate him and love him and thus support him in his own goals for his relationship with the kids. That let him be softer with the kids - a whole lot of his hardness came from uncertainty and I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of a lot of men. They're raised to bludgeon their way past uncertainty so they can be Men. It helped George a lot for him to know he could be soft and even vulnerable and unsure around me, that I wouldn't think less of him, that I adored every bit of softness he had to offer - but for him to trust that, *I* had to be soft, even when I was as sure as I could be. He needed me to be gentle and supportive while he figured out how to be a different kind of dad - and man - than what he was raised to.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I feel like if DH were more unschooly, then i could relax and just work while he unschools the kids. Until DH truly gets it, I have felt that I would unschool "better". I do recognize that -=-
If you can't afford to unschool, it's somewhat like not being able to afford an expensive private school.
Each person only has one life--even a married person. It seems maybe you want to live your life, and have your husband live and be the way you would be if you were home. I know the feeling, but I also know the feeling is unfair, and not good for the marriage.
Don't put unschooling ahead of your marriage.
Sandra
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If you can't afford to unschool, it's somewhat like not being able to afford an expensive private school.
Each person only has one life--even a married person. It seems maybe you want to live your life, and have your husband live and be the way you would be if you were home. I know the feeling, but I also know the feeling is unfair, and not good for the marriage.
Don't put unschooling ahead of your marriage.
Sandra
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catfish_friend
Thank you, Sandra, for your insight and response.
/////::: me:
But, Sandra's point is still relevant.
Ironically, talking to DH tonight, he told me about his wonderfully unschooly day. He took our girls to Point Dume -- a beautiful cove beach at low tide. They saw seastars in the rocky tidepools and noticed how the sun sets in a different spot in the wintertime. We usually only go to Pt. Dume in the summer. The girls played gleefully and fell asleep easily after a full day of going to one o their favorite places. DH mentioned that he can really begin to see the value in having days like today over going to kindergarten. He still wants to apply to private school but he says that he's leaning towards us figuring out a way that we could all be home together and unschool.
He shared that his new years resolution is to work on changing one parenting challenge each day. Today it was to let go of the "I told you so" attitude.
He also shared that his hangup with Unschooling and other homeschoolers is that in his run-ins with some, he says he's kind of "freaked out" by them...
I've wanted so much to respond more specifically to all the wonderful posts in response to mine, but I accidentally sent something through today that was incomplete (and sorely unedited)! And, I feel so much is shifting in my family so quickly, due to this paradigm shift manifesting beyond just my own thoughts and desires!
I wanted to share.
Even DH told someone else that because I started to shift in my thinking and how I approached the girls, it shifted his way of relating to them, too.
And, tonight, I prioritized my marriage by simply feeling grateful for my DH and the way he supports our girls and me, even if it's not exactly how I want him to be. I accept him for who he is, where he is. And I see which direction he's heading. And it's very exciting!
Thank you all so very much for your insights!!!
Peace,
Ceci
/////::: me:
> -=-I feel like if DH were more unschooly, then i could relax and just work while he unschools the kids. Until DH truly gets it, I have felt that I would unschool "better". I do recognize that -=-I realize in reading what I've posted, that I've muddied myself. Saying that I'd like to "just work while he unschools the kids" is only about the next 8 months or so -- for the duration of my current job. After that I can be at home and DH can work
>
> Sandra: If you can't afford to unschool, it's somewhat like not being able to afford an expensive private school.
>
> Each person only has one life--even a married person. It seems maybe you want to live your life, and have your husband live and be the way you would be if you were home. I know the feeling, but I also know the feeling is unfair, and not good for the marriage.
>
> Don't put unschooling ahead of your marriage./////:::
>
But, Sandra's point is still relevant.
Ironically, talking to DH tonight, he told me about his wonderfully unschooly day. He took our girls to Point Dume -- a beautiful cove beach at low tide. They saw seastars in the rocky tidepools and noticed how the sun sets in a different spot in the wintertime. We usually only go to Pt. Dume in the summer. The girls played gleefully and fell asleep easily after a full day of going to one o their favorite places. DH mentioned that he can really begin to see the value in having days like today over going to kindergarten. He still wants to apply to private school but he says that he's leaning towards us figuring out a way that we could all be home together and unschool.
He shared that his new years resolution is to work on changing one parenting challenge each day. Today it was to let go of the "I told you so" attitude.
He also shared that his hangup with Unschooling and other homeschoolers is that in his run-ins with some, he says he's kind of "freaked out" by them...
I've wanted so much to respond more specifically to all the wonderful posts in response to mine, but I accidentally sent something through today that was incomplete (and sorely unedited)! And, I feel so much is shifting in my family so quickly, due to this paradigm shift manifesting beyond just my own thoughts and desires!
I wanted to share.
Even DH told someone else that because I started to shift in my thinking and how I approached the girls, it shifted his way of relating to them, too.
And, tonight, I prioritized my marriage by simply feeling grateful for my DH and the way he supports our girls and me, even if it's not exactly how I want him to be. I accept him for who he is, where he is. And I see which direction he's heading. And it's very exciting!
Thank you all so very much for your insights!!!
Peace,
Ceci
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plaidpanties666
catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
That application may feel like a kind of "security blanket" to him - not all the eggs in one basket.
Would it help him to have some "idea books"? Arts and crafts, brochures for touristy stuff, sciency projects? Those are regular parts of my "strewing". It's also worth looking into memberships into places like zoos, state parks, museums and even botanical gardens. They make good places for outtings, and being able to go to the botanical for a picnic is a way for dad to feel good about cultural experiences and those other sorts of things that kids in school miss out on.
---Meredith
> He still wants to apply to private school but he says that he's leaning towards us figuring out a way that we could all be home together and unschool.**************
That application may feel like a kind of "security blanket" to him - not all the eggs in one basket.
Would it help him to have some "idea books"? Arts and crafts, brochures for touristy stuff, sciency projects? Those are regular parts of my "strewing". It's also worth looking into memberships into places like zoos, state parks, museums and even botanical gardens. They make good places for outtings, and being able to go to the botanical for a picnic is a way for dad to feel good about cultural experiences and those other sorts of things that kids in school miss out on.
---Meredith