Teenage issues
Susan Bundlie
I have a friend who asked me if I would post a couple of questions here for
her (she¹s basically an unschooler, but doesn¹t have computer access right
now). She¹s a single mother (no father in the picture at all for the past
three years or so) with one boy, 15.5. The boy has been taking long walks at
night, often leaving the house at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.. He¹s usually on the
computer until late, then likes to walk to un-kink, I guess.
My friend doesn¹t like the idea of him being out alone in the wee hours
(they live in a small town, semi-rural area; he has no friends in the town,
since they do most of their activities in a large, fairly close-by city),
but when she told him she thought he shouldn¹t go out after midnight he
simply informed her he was going to anyway. She doesn¹t know whether to
press the issue or let it go, hoping the excitement will wear off. They have
lots of other ³issues² with each other right now and she¹s striving to keep
conflict to the minimum.
The other question she had was about mixed-sex sleepovers. Her son and his
new (first) girlfriend are planning a party and want to ask everyone to
spend the night. The girl¹s parents will be home, but they aren¹t known for
their supervisory abilities (especially at 3:00 a.m., when their eyes will
be closed!). She realizes these parties are kind of a trend right now, but
she isn¹t comfortable with the idea (if the parents of the other kids aren¹t
either, she might have the reinforcement she needs).
Any ideas? I¹m glad most of this stuff is behind me (my girls are 19 and
21), although now it's more my having to sit by and watch them go through
things that I can't help with, other than to just be a listening ear.
Susan
her (she¹s basically an unschooler, but doesn¹t have computer access right
now). She¹s a single mother (no father in the picture at all for the past
three years or so) with one boy, 15.5. The boy has been taking long walks at
night, often leaving the house at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.. He¹s usually on the
computer until late, then likes to walk to un-kink, I guess.
My friend doesn¹t like the idea of him being out alone in the wee hours
(they live in a small town, semi-rural area; he has no friends in the town,
since they do most of their activities in a large, fairly close-by city),
but when she told him she thought he shouldn¹t go out after midnight he
simply informed her he was going to anyway. She doesn¹t know whether to
press the issue or let it go, hoping the excitement will wear off. They have
lots of other ³issues² with each other right now and she¹s striving to keep
conflict to the minimum.
The other question she had was about mixed-sex sleepovers. Her son and his
new (first) girlfriend are planning a party and want to ask everyone to
spend the night. The girl¹s parents will be home, but they aren¹t known for
their supervisory abilities (especially at 3:00 a.m., when their eyes will
be closed!). She realizes these parties are kind of a trend right now, but
she isn¹t comfortable with the idea (if the parents of the other kids aren¹t
either, she might have the reinforcement she needs).
Any ideas? I¹m glad most of this stuff is behind me (my girls are 19 and
21), although now it's more my having to sit by and watch them go through
things that I can't help with, other than to just be a listening ear.
Susan
KT
> The boy has been taking long walks atand
> night, often leaving the house at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.. He¹s usually on the
> computer until late, then likes to walk to un-kink, I guess.
> Her son and hisBoth jumped out at me. It is my hard-won experience that the first is
> new (first) girlfriend
related to the second...could be he's going to see her...could be he's
pining and can't sleep...
I have a very sociable, easy-going 17 yo that kind of lost his mind
during the summer before he was 16. Girl related, for sure. All the
other "issues" I had with him at that time simply disappeared as soon as
the girl did.
I'm not blaming it on the girl--I blamed it on the intensity of emotion
he felt and his sort of addiction to it.
In my city, your friend's son would be picked up for curfew after
midnight, and it just wouldn't be safe for him to be out there. But, I
grew up in a small town, and I understand the appeal of being out in the
solitary and quiet, and often did sneak out. I would encourage your
friend to respect his desire to do that, and as long as he's not getting
into trouble. I know what it's like to really, really want to know
what's going on inside a son's head, but we can't unless they want us
to. I think she'd be better off not to press it, living in a small town
and all.
And then I'd be watching like a hawk for signs that maybe he's not just
walking. But that's just me.
Karen
[email protected]
Hi,
I'm new here, but it would seem to me that if my son were walking at 1
or 2 in the morning, then I would find real work for him to do during the
day. Work that would tire his physically so that he would be sleeping, and I
wouldn't have anything to think about. I wouldn't press the issue with him,
but I would certainly find a way to get him involved with REAL MAN WORK. He
is old enough, and obviously capable (no disabilities mentioned).
Does he like plumbing, wood working, gardening, farming, electrical
work? I mean, I would see where his interests lie and then find a way for
him to apprentice someone, or for him to learn it and teach someone else.
About the sleepover, there is no way we would go for that, only
because we remember being a teenager, and I wouldn't put my child in a
situation that would call for EXTRAORDINARY restraint, especially during the
teenage years! So many hormones! So many things going on inside of them
that I just wouldn't put them in a situation that would call for that. I
would say that he is welcome to have friends over at his house, but not co-ed
sleepovers.
My opinion. For what it's worth.
~Jonna~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm new here, but it would seem to me that if my son were walking at 1
or 2 in the morning, then I would find real work for him to do during the
day. Work that would tire his physically so that he would be sleeping, and I
wouldn't have anything to think about. I wouldn't press the issue with him,
but I would certainly find a way to get him involved with REAL MAN WORK. He
is old enough, and obviously capable (no disabilities mentioned).
Does he like plumbing, wood working, gardening, farming, electrical
work? I mean, I would see where his interests lie and then find a way for
him to apprentice someone, or for him to learn it and teach someone else.
About the sleepover, there is no way we would go for that, only
because we remember being a teenager, and I wouldn't put my child in a
situation that would call for EXTRAORDINARY restraint, especially during the
teenage years! So many hormones! So many things going on inside of them
that I just wouldn't put them in a situation that would call for that. I
would say that he is welcome to have friends over at his house, but not co-ed
sleepovers.
My opinion. For what it's worth.
~Jonna~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I would also advise her if she has not already to talk about birth control,
et al. him . . .in a nonjudgmental way if possible.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
et al. him . . .in a nonjudgmental way if possible.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 10:59:23 AM, strandbe@... writes:
<< My friend doesn1t like the idea of him being out alone in the wee hours
(they live in a small town, semi-rural area; he has no friends in the town,
since they do most of their activities in a large, fairly close-by city),
but when she told him she thought he shouldn1t go out after midnight he
simply informed her he was going to anyway. >>
I would be afraid of the police bringing my boys home and me getting in
trouble for them not "being in bed on a schoolnight." Since that's something
school-families CAN get in trouble with CPS for, and since most CPS folk have
not a clue about homeschoolers, I don't want to risk it. So I tell my boys I
do NOT want to risk being in trouble and they have to stay inside.
One night a few years back, my husband got up, saw that there were boys (then
10, 12) awake and told them "Why don't you go to the park?"
The park is three blocks away. It's not by a main street. It's surrounded
by residences. There is an 11:00 or so curfew on park use. My husband is
upon occasion not thinking.
The boys thought it was great.
I was horrified.
I would tell the night-cruising boy that no, one of the costs of
homeschooling is to keep schoolkids' schedules, to some extent. I might
probably also put the fear of rape and murder into him (lightly...) and tell
him that although most perverts prefer girls, there are a few....
My kids are on the other end of the sleepover issue. They've had overnight
visits since they were little, and kids from the babysitting co-op, and
neighbors, and many times they were girls. There was no good time to say
"Now you're all too old for this." Occasionally after a late night of D&D or
Anime club there will be a girl among the regular boys.
Although it would have caused heart-attacks in guys my dad's age, I figure
the danger is when a teenaged girl is overnighting with a single teenaged
boy, but if it's one girl and three or four boys, she's totally safe. Dumb
as it sounds on the outside, it makes sense with this group.
I have a related story to tell. (Susan's daughter Kira and I discussed this
last week, so you might hear it twice, Susan.)
I grew up in a house with four girls. Four teenaged girls all at once. I
was well aware of all angles and facets of the behaviors of bad boys, and
what girls needed to be aware of and careful about, and how evil boys could
be to girls and how it was a girl's responsibility, etc.
Now I have boys. Now I have seen (felt, really) some fears that had never
occurred to me in my whole life until I saw my boys in the presence of some
girls I didn't trust.
Now I worry about girls who would do just about anything to assert their
independence from their dads, and if it involved getting knocked up by the
first guy dumb enough to do her, she wouldn't hesitate. And I've seen the
competition between girls for Kirby's attentions, and I worry about the
escalating offers of favors if he continues to be his suave, attractive self.
(I don't personally see it--he seems oafish and irritating to me, his mom,
but even Kira who's 21 discussed the Kirby-draw.) I hope the bidding wars
are never necessary, nor if they start he doesn't go there. All his
girlfriends have been older than he is, and they all (four or five of them,
depending on whether we count the one long camping weekend deal) initiated
the social relationship.
All his friends up to 18, are still virgins. Even the girls. He hangs out
with some older folk, and early-20's, and college crowd, who fool around (or
would be willing if opportunity presented--they're gaming geeks for the most
part), but they're not in his range of option yet.
I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and 15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll?
I've named two girls for my guys to remain clothed at all times with. I see
in their eyes--one I've seen in action with her (single-parent) dad; the
other has only a mom with a string of sleepover boyfriends. Those girls need
an exit pass. And they're both mean in the glance, and mean in the voice.
I told the boys (and two of their homeschooling friends) that if a girl gets
pregnant they have no option. Their choice is to be a good dad or a bad dad.
And it won't be within their control even what their opportunities to do
that are, but they will end up being responsible or irresponsible, and living
with the girl for a long time, or living with the guilt for life. But that
one moment can be the end of all their future options.
The other side of that whole coin looks very different.
And now Holly is ten. Kirby told her last week he doesn't want her coming to
Active Imagination if she doesn't have to. (That's their gaming-shop hangout
and Kirby's place of employment. She rarely goes--usually just to deliver
lunch or pick someone up.) Why? What was her sin? One of the older teens
had told Kirby, "Dude, your sister is going to be HOT."
Sandra
<< My friend doesn1t like the idea of him being out alone in the wee hours
(they live in a small town, semi-rural area; he has no friends in the town,
since they do most of their activities in a large, fairly close-by city),
but when she told him she thought he shouldn1t go out after midnight he
simply informed her he was going to anyway. >>
I would be afraid of the police bringing my boys home and me getting in
trouble for them not "being in bed on a schoolnight." Since that's something
school-families CAN get in trouble with CPS for, and since most CPS folk have
not a clue about homeschoolers, I don't want to risk it. So I tell my boys I
do NOT want to risk being in trouble and they have to stay inside.
One night a few years back, my husband got up, saw that there were boys (then
10, 12) awake and told them "Why don't you go to the park?"
The park is three blocks away. It's not by a main street. It's surrounded
by residences. There is an 11:00 or so curfew on park use. My husband is
upon occasion not thinking.
The boys thought it was great.
I was horrified.
I would tell the night-cruising boy that no, one of the costs of
homeschooling is to keep schoolkids' schedules, to some extent. I might
probably also put the fear of rape and murder into him (lightly...) and tell
him that although most perverts prefer girls, there are a few....
My kids are on the other end of the sleepover issue. They've had overnight
visits since they were little, and kids from the babysitting co-op, and
neighbors, and many times they were girls. There was no good time to say
"Now you're all too old for this." Occasionally after a late night of D&D or
Anime club there will be a girl among the regular boys.
Although it would have caused heart-attacks in guys my dad's age, I figure
the danger is when a teenaged girl is overnighting with a single teenaged
boy, but if it's one girl and three or four boys, she's totally safe. Dumb
as it sounds on the outside, it makes sense with this group.
I have a related story to tell. (Susan's daughter Kira and I discussed this
last week, so you might hear it twice, Susan.)
I grew up in a house with four girls. Four teenaged girls all at once. I
was well aware of all angles and facets of the behaviors of bad boys, and
what girls needed to be aware of and careful about, and how evil boys could
be to girls and how it was a girl's responsibility, etc.
Now I have boys. Now I have seen (felt, really) some fears that had never
occurred to me in my whole life until I saw my boys in the presence of some
girls I didn't trust.
Now I worry about girls who would do just about anything to assert their
independence from their dads, and if it involved getting knocked up by the
first guy dumb enough to do her, she wouldn't hesitate. And I've seen the
competition between girls for Kirby's attentions, and I worry about the
escalating offers of favors if he continues to be his suave, attractive self.
(I don't personally see it--he seems oafish and irritating to me, his mom,
but even Kira who's 21 discussed the Kirby-draw.) I hope the bidding wars
are never necessary, nor if they start he doesn't go there. All his
girlfriends have been older than he is, and they all (four or five of them,
depending on whether we count the one long camping weekend deal) initiated
the social relationship.
All his friends up to 18, are still virgins. Even the girls. He hangs out
with some older folk, and early-20's, and college crowd, who fool around (or
would be willing if opportunity presented--they're gaming geeks for the most
part), but they're not in his range of option yet.
I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and 15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll?
I've named two girls for my guys to remain clothed at all times with. I see
in their eyes--one I've seen in action with her (single-parent) dad; the
other has only a mom with a string of sleepover boyfriends. Those girls need
an exit pass. And they're both mean in the glance, and mean in the voice.
I told the boys (and two of their homeschooling friends) that if a girl gets
pregnant they have no option. Their choice is to be a good dad or a bad dad.
And it won't be within their control even what their opportunities to do
that are, but they will end up being responsible or irresponsible, and living
with the girl for a long time, or living with the guilt for life. But that
one moment can be the end of all their future options.
The other side of that whole coin looks very different.
And now Holly is ten. Kirby told her last week he doesn't want her coming to
Active Imagination if she doesn't have to. (That's their gaming-shop hangout
and Kirby's place of employment. She rarely goes--usually just to deliver
lunch or pick someone up.) Why? What was her sin? One of the older teens
had told Kirby, "Dude, your sister is going to be HOT."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2001 2:45:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
conversations about masturbation in sex ed programs? How much trouble could
be eliminated in the world if they'd just listened to her!
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> > The boy has been taking long walks atRemember how much trouble Joycelyn Elders got into when she suggested
> > night, often leaving the house at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.. He¹s usually on the
> > computer until late, then likes to walk to un-kink, I guess.
>
> and
>
> > Her son and his
> > new (first) girlfriend
>
> Both jumped out at me. It is my hard-won experience that the first is
> related to the second...could be he's going to see her...could be he's
> pining and can't sleep...
>
>
conversations about masturbation in sex ed programs? How much trouble could
be eliminated in the world if they'd just listened to her!
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KT
> Now I have boys. Now I have seen (felt, really) some fears that hadYeah, me too. People don't tend to think about these kinds of
> never
> occurred to me in my whole life until I saw my boys in the presence
> of some
> girls I didn't trust.
>
> Now I worry about girls who would do just about anything to assert their
> independence from their dads, and if it involved getting knocked up by
> the
> first guy dumb enough to do her, she wouldn't hesitate.
things...they tend to think boys are the "predators", but I know that's
not always the case. I have only boys. My biggest fear when my middle
was dating that girl was that he wouldn't say no, because I was pretty
sure she was willing to say yes.
My 19 yo son's girlfriend's otherwise very strict stepmom took her to
get the pill as soon as they started dating. I've tried to raise my
boys to be responsible in regards to sex, but I was *relieved* when I
heard that. They've been together going on 2 years now, and are both
adults. She can't tell her very strict stepmom that they have the whole
upstairs to themselves when they're here from college. What's that
about? "I'll take you to get the pill, but I don't want to know if
you're sleeping together." (I don't want to know, either...it's just
easier on us all if we don't pretend and make her take Will's room.)
Karen
Tia Leschke
>This is giving me some food for thought, Sandra. My 14 year old looks
>
>Now I have boys. Now I have seen (felt, really) some fears that had never
>occurred to me in my whole life until I saw my boys in the presence of some
>girls I didn't trust.
>
>Now I worry about girls who would do just about anything to assert their
>independence from their dads, and if it involved getting knocked up by the
>first guy dumb enough to do her, she wouldn't hesitate. And I've seen the
>competition between girls for Kirby's attentions, and I worry about the
>escalating offers of favors if he continues to be his suave, attractive self.
> (I don't personally see it--he seems oafish and irritating to me, his mom,
>but even Kira who's 21 discussed the Kirby-draw.) I hope the bidding wars
>are never necessary, nor if they start he doesn't go there. All his
>girlfriends have been older than he is, and they all (four or five of them,
>depending on whether we count the one long camping weekend deal) initiated
>the social relationship.
about 17, and we've already had some girls following him around and
calling. At this point he still seems to be at that yes and no stage about
girls. The hormones are clearly raging, and I'm sure he's interested, but
it also seems really yucky to him. (This is my guess. He's even less of a
talker-about-feelings than his dad.) The one time I heard that he *had*
met up with a girl at the ball park and spent some time with her that day,
it seemed all the calls stopped right after. So he may have been turned
off by female agression, or simply indicated he wasn't ready for the mooshy
mooshy stuff. I'll probably never know. At any rate, now might be a good
time to talk about the kind of girls you're referring to. (and disease and
pregnancy protection) Thanks.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Karin
Sandra - I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading your story. I also grew up in a house of girls (3), me being the oldest. And now I have 2 boys - 10 & 8.
I found your insights and experiences you described very educational. I'll be having to deal with these issues in a few more years and am a bit clueless about how I'll be handling these types of *situations*.
Thanks for the helpful hints.
Karin
I found your insights and experiences you described very educational. I'll be having to deal with these issues in a few more years and am a bit clueless about how I'll be handling these types of *situations*.
Thanks for the helpful hints.
Karin
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Teenage issues
>I have a related story to tell.
>I grew up in a house with four girls.
>Now I have boys.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
I used to slip out at night and walk, until I became a
mother. For miles and miles. It was dangerous, yes,
but I did anyway.....and learned how to recognize
danger in the dark..... and to see the incredible
beauty that I would have missed sitting under a roof.
LOTS of physical exercise in the day did not deter me.
Sometimes I have taken the boys (now men,except for
one) for Night Walks. Roy and I do this now,
sometimes, too. A walk with a teenage son, at night,
when you don't have to worry about facial expressions
and such, can be lovely. A closeness can happen that
is not possible at other times.
Walking, of itself, isn't a bad thing. Even at night.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
mother. For miles and miles. It was dangerous, yes,
but I did anyway.....and learned how to recognize
danger in the dark..... and to see the incredible
beauty that I would have missed sitting under a roof.
LOTS of physical exercise in the day did not deter me.
Sometimes I have taken the boys (now men,except for
one) for Night Walks. Roy and I do this now,
sometimes, too. A walk with a teenage son, at night,
when you don't have to worry about facial expressions
and such, can be lovely. A closeness can happen that
is not possible at other times.
Walking, of itself, isn't a bad thing. Even at night.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Joseph Fuerst
>Hey Karen...not to birst your bubble exactly....BUT (about to burst
> My 19 yo son's girlfriend's otherwise very strict stepmom took her to
> get the pill as soon as they started dating. I've tried to raise my
> boys to be responsible in regards to sex, but I was *relieved* when I
> heard that. They've been together going on 2 years now, and are both
> adults.
bubble)....my youngest brother had a girlfriend in HS. For her sixteenth
birthday, her parents put her on the pill. She dated my brother for
awhile...went through some relationship troubles. Well, at 17.5 guess who
was pregnant? Just 'cause the parent gave the pill, doesn't mean it gets
swallowed. Especially when girls somehow still think/hope that getting
pregnant will somehow secure the relationship.
Sounds like you don't havbe your head buried in the sand....hope you and
your son have an open line of communication on this!
Joseph Fuerst
>Hey Karen...not to birst your bubble exactly....BUT (about to burst
> My 19 yo son's girlfriend's otherwise very strict stepmom took her to
> get the pill as soon as they started dating. I've tried to raise my
> boys to be responsible in regards to sex, but I was *relieved* when I
> heard that. They've been together going on 2 years now, and are both
> adults.
bubble)....my youngest brother had a girlfriend in HS. For her sixteenth
birthday, her parents put her on the pill. She dated my brother for
awhile...went through some relationship troubles. Well, at 17.5 guess who
was pregnant? Just 'cause the parent gave the pill, doesn't mean it gets
swallowed. Especially when girls somehow still think/hope that getting
pregnant will somehow secure the relationship.
Sounds like you don't havbe your head buried in the sand....hope you and
your son have an open line of communication on this!
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2001 5:54:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
fuerst@... writes:
think/hope that getting pregnant will somehow secure the relationship.
My response to all of this is: Is anyone worried about anything else besides
pregnancy? Not to start a huge deal but babies are to love, the others can
kill you. My cousin died 5 years ago of aids, I wouldn't have rather seen
him get someone pregnant.
Last comment: Isn't abstaining a good thing!
fuerst@... writes:
> Well, at 17.5 guess who was pregnant? Just 'cause the parent gave the pilldoesn't mean it gets swallowed. Especially when girls somehow still
think/hope that getting pregnant will somehow secure the relationship.
My response to all of this is: Is anyone worried about anything else besides
pregnancy? Not to start a huge deal but babies are to love, the others can
kill you. My cousin died 5 years ago of aids, I wouldn't have rather seen
him get someone pregnant.
Last comment: Isn't abstaining a good thing!
Joseph Fuerst
I know Sandra mentioned other potential natural consequences of sexual
behavior. I was simply responding to the one person's situation because it
reminded me of my brother.
BTW, my brother was angry and hurt by the girlfriend's manipulation. He
was able to understand and forgive...but he learned this was not a person he
wanted to marry. He is a responsible father. My nephew is now 11. My
brother went on to marry a woman who respects and encourages his
relationship with his son. She treats him as her own child...and now my
brother has 2 more sons. The boy's mom struggled for many years to let go
of the relationship between her and my brother except as partners in
parenting. She has never married (though still young at 30). It has not
been an easy road for any of them.
I don't think anyone intends to minimize the other problems that sexual
activity can create....from emotional difficulty to infertility...even death
(as you've seen happen). I think folks are just relating their thoughts and
hopes on how to convey messages of responsibility to those in the midst of
budding sexuality.
Susan...who worked for hospice awhile and saw plenty of what AIDS does to a
body.
behavior. I was simply responding to the one person's situation because it
reminded me of my brother.
BTW, my brother was angry and hurt by the girlfriend's manipulation. He
was able to understand and forgive...but he learned this was not a person he
wanted to marry. He is a responsible father. My nephew is now 11. My
brother went on to marry a woman who respects and encourages his
relationship with his son. She treats him as her own child...and now my
brother has 2 more sons. The boy's mom struggled for many years to let go
of the relationship between her and my brother except as partners in
parenting. She has never married (though still young at 30). It has not
been an easy road for any of them.
I don't think anyone intends to minimize the other problems that sexual
activity can create....from emotional difficulty to infertility...even death
(as you've seen happen). I think folks are just relating their thoughts and
hopes on how to convey messages of responsibility to those in the midst of
budding sexuality.
Susan...who worked for hospice awhile and saw plenty of what AIDS does to a
body.
----- Original Message -----
From: <dcsmiller@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Teenage issues
> In a message dated 12/12/2001 5:54:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> fuerst@... writes:
>
> > Well, at 17.5 guess who was pregnant? Just 'cause the parent gave the
pill
> doesn't mean it gets swallowed. Especially when girls somehow still
> think/hope that getting pregnant will somehow secure the relationship.
>
> My response to all of this is: Is anyone worried about anything else
besides
> pregnancy? Not to start a huge deal but babies are to love, the others
can
> kill you. My cousin died 5 years ago of aids, I wouldn't have rather seen
> him get someone pregnant.
>
> Last comment: Isn't abstaining a good thing!
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
[email protected]
I> > Last comment: Isn't abstaining a good thing!>>>
If that is someone's choice, sure. Many people don't choose that, so it is a
good idea to know all the options. I would not presume to tell a young person
that abstinence is their only choice. Or even the only good choice. That is
for them to decide I think.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If that is someone's choice, sure. Many people don't choose that, so it is a
good idea to know all the options. I would not presume to tell a young person
that abstinence is their only choice. Or even the only good choice. That is
for them to decide I think.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 12:12:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<
I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and 15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll? >>
It seems odd to blame it on school, I was just 14 myself and I think it has
to do with school vs. home and the years of family separation that it incurs.
And I think I am and always have been close to my mother. I don't
expect my dd (who is very much like me physically, mentally, emotionally)
to do what I did. I think she will have less opportunity and a fuller &
richer life because she is home. I plan to keep it that way anyhow <g>!!
Kathy
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<
I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and 15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll? >>
It seems odd to blame it on school, I was just 14 myself and I think it has
to do with school vs. home and the years of family separation that it incurs.
And I think I am and always have been close to my mother. I don't
expect my dd (who is very much like me physically, mentally, emotionally)
to do what I did. I think she will have less opportunity and a fuller &
richer life because she is home. I plan to keep it that way anyhow <g>!!
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 10:03:02 PM, Natrlmama@... writes:
<< I think she will have less opportunity and a fuller &
richer life because she is home. >>
Maybe that's all I meant by wondering whether it was school--the whole
separate kid-culture.
Sandra
<< I think she will have less opportunity and a fuller &
richer life because she is home. >>
Maybe that's all I meant by wondering whether it was school--the whole
separate kid-culture.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 9:18:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<
Maybe that's all I meant by wondering whether it was school--the whole
separate kid-culture.
Kathy
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<
Maybe that's all I meant by wondering whether it was school--the whole
separate kid-culture.
>>Yeah, I thought that was what you meant. Cool, I'm thinking like Sandra <G>
Kathy
KT
> Hey Karen...not to birst your bubble exactly....BUT (about to burstOh yeah, I know. But that was better than nothing when they were both
> bubble)....my youngest brother had a girlfriend in HS. For her sixteenth
> birthday, her parents put her on the pill. She dated my brother for
> awhile...went through some relationship troubles. Well, at 17.5 guess who
> was pregnant? Just 'cause the parent gave the pill, doesn't mean it gets
> swallowed.
underage. It gave me a small glimmer of hope. And Mandy isn't at all
like one of those girls Sandra described (but one never knows). His
first girlfriend *was* and I did have a frank discussion with him about
what his goals were (he was in 10th grade) and how I would support him
if I thought being a "family man" was what he wanted for his life at a
young age...but that wasn't something he'd ever expressed an interest
in--and college, etc., was. I pointed out that "look" in this girl's
eyes (not in so many words). A few weeks later he said she was sucking
him dry so he dumped her! lol.
But, now that he and Mandy are both adults, it's really none of my
business whether they get pregnant or not. I don't treat her like her
stepmother does. I acknowledge that they are adults and treat them like
I wish my mom had treated me before I got pregnant at 19. (There's not
even a sand pile around here. lol.)
Karen
KT
> My response to all of this is: Is anyone worried about anything elseWell, we can never know for sure, but my son met his gf in a small town,
> besides
> pregnancy? Not to start a huge deal but babies are to love, the
> others can
> kill you. My cousin died 5 years ago of aids, I wouldn't have rather
> seen
> him get someone pregnant.
and I'm pretty darn sure they were both virgins. He was her first
boyfriend ever. I don't think they even know anyone in their experience
who has HIV/AIDS, because it would be shocking gossip, and I would have
heard about it.
So, in this instance, I'm not worried about them. But they know all
about the dangers, and if they broke up, I would try to remind my son
about them.
>Better to be prepared than surprised.
> Last comment: Isn't abstaining a good thing!
Karen
Susan McGlohn
Now, understanding that although I was a sexually
active teenager, I am not the mother of one, and so my
comments still come with the taint of naivety that
blessed ignorance brings...
I realize also that the conversation has moved away
from the original question of co-ed sleepovers to
teenage sexual activity in general.
I think that group co-ed sleepovers, between
teens/young adults who are not attracted to each
other, in a group setting, and where drugs and alcohol
are not a factor, are *probably* not going to result
in any sexual situations. Do you chance it? Well, if
you know the kids and the kids families, and it
However, remembering how *I* was from about the age of
15 on, any "sleep-over" with a boyfriend would have
resulted in having sex with that boyfriend. It was a
given in high school that if you were going steady you
were having sex. A result of peer pressure? Lack of
training on my parents' part? Raging hormones?
Probably a mixture of all three and more.
Given all that, and realizing I am "preaching to the
choir" here...
Why do we buy into cultural expectations of teens
being irresponsible, hormone-driven animals?
Especially about homeschooled teens who supposedly
have so many more ways to "socialize" and more
opportunities to interact with others in meaningful,
productive ways than their schooled (jailed) peers.
I mean, homeschoolers don't buy into the stuff (that's
the polite term) about children suddenly needing to be
put into the procrustean public school system at age
5, or needing to be socialized for 13 years with a
group of 30 children all the same age, so why do we
buy into the idea that they are in some sort of cocoon
stage from which they emerge on their 18th birthday
fully socialized and suddenly functional in society?
Aren't our children perfectly capable of making
reasonable and correct decisions before then?
Obviously there are some legal limitations put in
place that are not in our control. Beyond that, if we
have done our jobs as parents to emulate and lead by
example, as well as explain to them the possible
results of their actions, can't we then trust them to
make good decisions?
Just musing a bit over my morning java.
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
active teenager, I am not the mother of one, and so my
comments still come with the taint of naivety that
blessed ignorance brings...
I realize also that the conversation has moved away
from the original question of co-ed sleepovers to
teenage sexual activity in general.
I think that group co-ed sleepovers, between
teens/young adults who are not attracted to each
other, in a group setting, and where drugs and alcohol
are not a factor, are *probably* not going to result
in any sexual situations. Do you chance it? Well, if
you know the kids and the kids families, and it
However, remembering how *I* was from about the age of
15 on, any "sleep-over" with a boyfriend would have
resulted in having sex with that boyfriend. It was a
given in high school that if you were going steady you
were having sex. A result of peer pressure? Lack of
training on my parents' part? Raging hormones?
Probably a mixture of all three and more.
Given all that, and realizing I am "preaching to the
choir" here...
Why do we buy into cultural expectations of teens
being irresponsible, hormone-driven animals?
Especially about homeschooled teens who supposedly
have so many more ways to "socialize" and more
opportunities to interact with others in meaningful,
productive ways than their schooled (jailed) peers.
I mean, homeschoolers don't buy into the stuff (that's
the polite term) about children suddenly needing to be
put into the procrustean public school system at age
5, or needing to be socialized for 13 years with a
group of 30 children all the same age, so why do we
buy into the idea that they are in some sort of cocoon
stage from which they emerge on their 18th birthday
fully socialized and suddenly functional in society?
Aren't our children perfectly capable of making
reasonable and correct decisions before then?
Obviously there are some legal limitations put in
place that are not in our control. Beyond that, if we
have done our jobs as parents to emulate and lead by
example, as well as explain to them the possible
results of their actions, can't we then trust them to
make good decisions?
Just musing a bit over my morning java.
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
KT
> Obviously there are some legal limitations put inThis is precisely what it boils down to, for me.
> place that are not in our control.
Before they are 18, I am legally responsible for what happens to them.
I was more likely to stick my nose in their business, depending on what
the business was. After they are 18, I'm completely hands off, only
offering advice or opinions when it directly effects me (like with
regard to the car, whether they live here or whatever). If it comes
down to expressing my disapproval and destroying the relationship, or
keeping my mouth shut and maintaining the relationship, I keep my mouth
shut. I have much more influence when we are on good speaking terms
than if I had insisted on my way or the highway. I take a long term
view, and remember well my early late teens and early 20s and the
problems I had with my parents, and what our relationship is like now.
This has generally been a process, too, that doesn't just turn on like a
switch the day they turn 18. It begins around about the time I become
aware of their burgeoning adulthood (usually in a state of panic that
time is running out for me!). Then I gather my wits and hold on to my
seat! lol.
If you've been to college freshman orientation with your kid recently,
you might have noticed that the first thing they do is separate the
parents and the students. The students get a federal form in their
packet that gives them the ability to give their parents permission to
get their grades directly from the school. The parent is automatically
barred by federal law from getting that information without the
student's consent. My son didn't fill out the form last year, and I
didn't expect him to. But he did, when he needed me to do something,
give me the PIN to his student account.
Trust. It's all about trust.
Karen
[email protected]
<< Why do we buy into cultural expectations of teens
being irresponsible, hormone-driven animals? >>
Because we were teens?
Believing in hormones isn't the same as believing in a curriculum.
The changes in Kirby and marty as they've gone into puberty are as real as
anything can be. Height, strength, voice, hair, skin--stuff REALLY changes.
It's not a mom saying "Gee, I think he's changing."
<<Especially about homeschooled teens who supposedly
have so many more ways to "socialize" and more
opportunities to interact with others in meaningful,
productive ways than their schooled (jailed) peers.
It helps with responses to hormones, and with opportunities to be with mixed
ages instead of in the hormonal-monkey jungle of high school.
Sandra
being irresponsible, hormone-driven animals? >>
Because we were teens?
Believing in hormones isn't the same as believing in a curriculum.
The changes in Kirby and marty as they've gone into puberty are as real as
anything can be. Height, strength, voice, hair, skin--stuff REALLY changes.
It's not a mom saying "Gee, I think he's changing."
<<Especially about homeschooled teens who supposedly
have so many more ways to "socialize" and more
opportunities to interact with others in meaningful,
productive ways than their schooled (jailed) peers.
>>It helps with the responsibility part, but not with the hormone part.
It helps with responses to hormones, and with opportunities to be with mixed
ages instead of in the hormonal-monkey jungle of high school.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>hormonal-monkey jungleOh I'm saving this phrase for future use. Thanks Sandra. :o)
~Mary
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eclectichomeschooler
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
assume that because they are there that boys and girls are going to
be jumping eachother's bones every time they get a wiff of some
representative of the opposite sex.
I wish someone at some point had told me that it was okay NOT to act
that way. I certainly lived up to everyone's expectations. Perhaps
we are selling kids short?
I certainly moderate my children much more than most people, but even
so, I trust them to make good decisions when they are out of my sight.
I am sure when they are teens I will have a lot more anxiety. I hope
I keep my idealistic views then ;-)
>I didn't say the hormones weren't there, just that we don't have to
> Because we were teens?
>
> Believing in hormones isn't the same as believing in a curriculum.
assume that because they are there that boys and girls are going to
be jumping eachother's bones every time they get a wiff of some
representative of the opposite sex.
I wish someone at some point had told me that it was okay NOT to act
that way. I certainly lived up to everyone's expectations. Perhaps
we are selling kids short?
I certainly moderate my children much more than most people, but even
so, I trust them to make good decisions when they are out of my sight.
I am sure when they are teens I will have a lot more anxiety. I hope
I keep my idealistic views then ;-)
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/13/2001 9:41:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
many of us probably did at their age (okay - for SURE I can speak only for
myself).
But- if anybody is wondering if homeschooling/unschooling teens are having
sex - I can assure you that the answer is often yes. And they can be just as
casual and unthinking about it as many of us were in our old "love-in" days.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It helps with the responsibility part, but not with the hormone part.And it helps that these are kids who tend to live more "conscious" lives than
> It helps with responses to hormones, and with opportunities to be with
> mixed
> ages instead of in the hormonal-monkey jungle of high school.
many of us probably did at their age (okay - for SURE I can speak only for
myself).
But- if anybody is wondering if homeschooling/unschooling teens are having
sex - I can assure you that the answer is often yes. And they can be just as
casual and unthinking about it as many of us were in our old "love-in" days.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/13/2001 10:28:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
eclectichomeschooler@... writes:
Karen pointed out, the teen years are a time to look ahead and begin building
the relationship that will last a lifetime - adult child with adult parent.
It isn't a good time to try to crack down.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eclectichomeschooler@... writes:
> I certainly moderate my children much more than most people, but evenYou still don't really have much choice other than to trust them. And, like
> so, I trust them to make good decisions when they are out of my sight.
>
> I am sure when they are teens I will have a lot more anxiety. I hope
> I keep my idealistic views then ;-)
Karen pointed out, the teen years are a time to look ahead and begin building
the relationship that will last a lifetime - adult child with adult parent.
It isn't a good time to try to crack down.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie
......But- if anybody is wondering if homeschooling/unschooling teens are having sex - I can assure you that the answer is often yes. And they can be just as casual and unthinking about it as many of us were in our old "love-in" days.pam.........
Sex is bigger than ever, no doubt about it!! All you have to do is look at the popular fashions, the neck lines are more than plunging and lycra doesn't leave much to the imagination. Girls in their early 20's having botox treatments, breast augmentations and liposuction etc.....
Show me a 10 year old who doesn't know about sex. Brittany Spears makes Barbie look like a puritan! The images that these kids have in their heads from all of the available media is astounding and incomprehensible to anyone raised in the 60's. As the 'cool' mom of a 'with it' teen I've found that the generation gap is an unavoidable abyss, my kids are on the other side and that's just the way it is.
What 17yo boy can say no to being seduced by a 17yo gorgeous (what 17yo girl isn't gorgeous) girl. Hormones, instinct, overwhelming physical response to stimuli, natural human behavior, I don't know the answer short of overwhelming religious indoctrination, fear of hell.......
Personally I believe the only way to handle it is give them all of the facts about birth control and disease control and provide them with what they realistically need. Crossing your fingers, closing your eyes or just telling them it's bad, doesn't do a dam bit of good.
You can't raise kids without imposed rules and boundaries and then expect to lay down the law when they you get scared. No curfew might mean late night walks or all night dance parties. If we don't want to tolerate state imposed education why would we use state imposed curfews to do the dirty work for us.
Control is the issue here and even though we might want to believe we aren't controlling our young ones, we soon become aware of what control really is, when they become teens/adults. We all learn the greatest lessons by making mistakes and there is no time when this fact is more evident than during the teen years. I can tell you from experience that watching your kids make mistakes is a lot harder that making them yourself. I've been riding the teen mom roller coaster for 6 years now and I've been way up and way down! Now that the ride with my oldest seems to be leveling out Number 2 just turned 12 and he's going to his friends 14th b-day party this evening, am I worried? I just hope he's learned some lessons from his big brother!!! As much as I want to be there for him, be his best friend etc.. I can feel him pulling away, holding some stuff back, becoming a man.
I'm sure my now 7yo dd will be the end of me! I knew the moment I saw her that her vulnerability was overwhelming for me. Until then I maintained that there was no difference between sons and daughters. I nursed them all until they were 5, the two younger ones are still in our bed, but they grow up up and away and there really is no holding them back :~(
Leslie, dutifully providing the necessities of life, their life!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sex is bigger than ever, no doubt about it!! All you have to do is look at the popular fashions, the neck lines are more than plunging and lycra doesn't leave much to the imagination. Girls in their early 20's having botox treatments, breast augmentations and liposuction etc.....
Show me a 10 year old who doesn't know about sex. Brittany Spears makes Barbie look like a puritan! The images that these kids have in their heads from all of the available media is astounding and incomprehensible to anyone raised in the 60's. As the 'cool' mom of a 'with it' teen I've found that the generation gap is an unavoidable abyss, my kids are on the other side and that's just the way it is.
What 17yo boy can say no to being seduced by a 17yo gorgeous (what 17yo girl isn't gorgeous) girl. Hormones, instinct, overwhelming physical response to stimuli, natural human behavior, I don't know the answer short of overwhelming religious indoctrination, fear of hell.......
Personally I believe the only way to handle it is give them all of the facts about birth control and disease control and provide them with what they realistically need. Crossing your fingers, closing your eyes or just telling them it's bad, doesn't do a dam bit of good.
You can't raise kids without imposed rules and boundaries and then expect to lay down the law when they you get scared. No curfew might mean late night walks or all night dance parties. If we don't want to tolerate state imposed education why would we use state imposed curfews to do the dirty work for us.
Control is the issue here and even though we might want to believe we aren't controlling our young ones, we soon become aware of what control really is, when they become teens/adults. We all learn the greatest lessons by making mistakes and there is no time when this fact is more evident than during the teen years. I can tell you from experience that watching your kids make mistakes is a lot harder that making them yourself. I've been riding the teen mom roller coaster for 6 years now and I've been way up and way down! Now that the ride with my oldest seems to be leveling out Number 2 just turned 12 and he's going to his friends 14th b-day party this evening, am I worried? I just hope he's learned some lessons from his big brother!!! As much as I want to be there for him, be his best friend etc.. I can feel him pulling away, holding some stuff back, becoming a man.
I'm sure my now 7yo dd will be the end of me! I knew the moment I saw her that her vulnerability was overwhelming for me. Until then I maintained that there was no difference between sons and daughters. I nursed them all until they were 5, the two younger ones are still in our bed, but they grow up up and away and there really is no holding them back :~(
Leslie, dutifully providing the necessities of life, their life!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< I don't know the answer short of overwhelming religious indoctrination,
fear of hell....... >>
THAT certainly hasn't worked in generations past! <g>
fear of hell....... >>
THAT certainly hasn't worked in generations past! <g>
Susan Bundlie
<<I've seen the
competition between girls for Kirby's attentions, and I worry about the
escalating offers of favors if he continues to be his suave, attractive
self.
(I don't personally see it--he seems oafish and irritating to me, his mom,
but even Kira who's 21 discussed the Kirby-draw.)>>
I haven¹t spoken much to Kira (my daughter, who¹s traveling and stayed
briefly with Sandra) in the last couple of weeks, but among the things she
mentioned when we did talk was Kirby¹s ³draw²! <g>
She needed to catch her next train at 3:45 a.m. to avoid a stopover in El
Paso; Kirby volunteered to wait up with her, which she thought was really
sweet of him. I guess they had a great time talking.
<<I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and
15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll?>>
My daughters have often asked me when I ³lost² my virginity (I hate than
term) and I honestly couldn¹t remember. I told them I thought I was about 19
or 20. This past week my husband (we¹ve been together since we were 16-17)
was digging through some old stuff and came across his high school diary.
There, in black and white, we discovered we ³made it² to 18! (Or, we ³made
it² AT 18!)
Susan
competition between girls for Kirby's attentions, and I worry about the
escalating offers of favors if he continues to be his suave, attractive
self.
(I don't personally see it--he seems oafish and irritating to me, his mom,
but even Kira who's 21 discussed the Kirby-draw.)>>
I haven¹t spoken much to Kira (my daughter, who¹s traveling and stayed
briefly with Sandra) in the last couple of weeks, but among the things she
mentioned when we did talk was Kirby¹s ³draw²! <g>
She needed to catch her next train at 3:45 a.m. to avoid a stopover in El
Paso; Kirby volunteered to wait up with her, which she thought was really
sweet of him. I guess they had a great time talking.
<<I made it to 17. My sister made 14. The cousins in my house... 14 and
15.
Was it school? Was it the 60's/70's and the atmosphere of
sex/drugs/rock'n'roll?>>
My daughters have often asked me when I ³lost² my virginity (I hate than
term) and I honestly couldn¹t remember. I told them I thought I was about 19
or 20. This past week my husband (we¹ve been together since we were 16-17)
was digging through some old stuff and came across his high school diary.
There, in black and white, we discovered we ³made it² to 18! (Or, we ³made
it² AT 18!)
Susan