public school?
gcriminy
Hello, everyone.
I have a six year old who wants to go to public school. She says she thinks it would be fun. Do you think it's worth it to let her try? I want her to feel she has the freedom to make her own best choices. I would vastly prefer to unschool her forever, but it's not about me. Do you think public school might do any lasting harm? I had her in a structured preschool when she was four, and she acted out violently and was very unhappy.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jennifer
I have a six year old who wants to go to public school. She says she thinks it would be fun. Do you think it's worth it to let her try? I want her to feel she has the freedom to make her own best choices. I would vastly prefer to unschool her forever, but it's not about me. Do you think public school might do any lasting harm? I had her in a structured preschool when she was four, and she acted out violently and was very unhappy.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jennifer
Alan Forrester
--- On Mon, 6/12/10, gcriminy <senlin_says@...> wrote:
If she doesn't want to hear the explanation you should still help her to go and try to take measures to make school less oppressive if she wants them.
Alan
> I have a six year old who wants to go to public school. SheIf she is interested in hearing what you have to say about school explain why you think she won't like it. Explain to her that it's like the preschool, but about 1000 times worse. And also, she won't be allowed to go to the toilet without asking permission. Also explain that the teachers and many of the pupils will treat her very badly. School in real life is about as much like school on television as a real shark is like a cartoon shark out Finding Nemo. If, after you have explained this, she still wants to go, then you should help her to go and help her to make arrangements to make school less oppressive if she wants such measures.
> says she thinks it would be fun. Do you think it's worth it
> to let her try? I want her to feel she has the freedom to
> make her own best choices. I would vastly prefer to unschool
> her forever, but it's not about me. Do you think public
> school might do any lasting harm? I had her in a structured
> preschool when she was four, and she acted out violently and
> was very unhappy.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
If she doesn't want to hear the explanation you should still help her to go and try to take measures to make school less oppressive if she wants them.
Alan
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 7, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Alan Forrester wrote:
what school's like. My daughter wanted to go to kindergarten so she
could ride the Big Wheels like she did in preschool ;-)
But better to stick to facts than propaganda and exaggerations. She
might choose to go and have a very nice teacher. She might be treated
nicely. She might find the experience okay but not worth her time.
Which means the parent will have lost a lot of credibility.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Explain to her that it's like the preschool, but about 1000 timesGiving her the facts would be good. TV can give a false impression of
> worse. ... Also explain that the teachers and many of the pupils
> will treat her very badly. School in real life is about as much like
> school on television as a real shark is like a cartoon shark out
> Finding Nemo
what school's like. My daughter wanted to go to kindergarten so she
could ride the Big Wheels like she did in preschool ;-)
But better to stick to facts than propaganda and exaggerations. She
might choose to go and have a very nice teacher. She might be treated
nicely. She might find the experience okay but not worth her time.
Which means the parent will have lost a lot of credibility.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow
Some kids love school. They dont mind the structure. They love having lots of other kids around. It isnt all bad to them. They dont care if they have to ask to go to the bathroom etc.. Some teachers are nice and sweet etc..
My daughter is 7 and wants to go. Many of her friends are in school and her best homeschooled friend is going back next year. I havnt told her that yet since it is still a while off and their plans may change. It will be difficult for my daughter. None of my boys want to go but she has asked about it.
Not really sure what to do either. She knows her alphabet but is not reading or writing much at all. She isnt that motivated to do those things. She would be in the 2nd grade next year and would be considered behind by school standards. I guess I would worry that her feelings would be hurt or her self esteem. At home these things wouldnt matter but at school attention would be drawn to them.
My daughter is 7 and wants to go. Many of her friends are in school and her best homeschooled friend is going back next year. I havnt told her that yet since it is still a while off and their plans may change. It will be difficult for my daughter. None of my boys want to go but she has asked about it.
Not really sure what to do either. She knows her alphabet but is not reading or writing much at all. She isnt that motivated to do those things. She would be in the 2nd grade next year and would be considered behind by school standards. I guess I would worry that her feelings would be hurt or her self esteem. At home these things wouldnt matter but at school attention would be drawn to them.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do you think public school might do any lasting harm? -=-
If a thousand people said no it wouldn't, would that be a sure safety for her?
If a thousand people said yes, it will, then what?
What if 500 say yes and 500 say no?
Pretty much everyone who's really thinking is going to need to say "it depends." But if by "lasting harm" you mean to her physical body, maybe. If you mean to her emotional state, maybe. If you mean to her natural learning, yes; it can't help but do that.
School divides things into educational and non-educational, straight up. Then it divides the educational things into language, math, science, history, health, physical education, music (if you're lucky) and art (as though it has no overlap with the other things). Just learning those terms will do some harm to the purest possibilities of unschooling.
If she is six and has never been to school, maybe she wants to ride a bus, or have a teacher, or a lunch box, or to be around other kids. There are other ways to get a bus ride, a luch box, a teacher and other kids. Dance classes. Gymnastics. Martial arts, sports, music or art.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If a thousand people said no it wouldn't, would that be a sure safety for her?
If a thousand people said yes, it will, then what?
What if 500 say yes and 500 say no?
Pretty much everyone who's really thinking is going to need to say "it depends." But if by "lasting harm" you mean to her physical body, maybe. If you mean to her emotional state, maybe. If you mean to her natural learning, yes; it can't help but do that.
School divides things into educational and non-educational, straight up. Then it divides the educational things into language, math, science, history, health, physical education, music (if you're lucky) and art (as though it has no overlap with the other things). Just learning those terms will do some harm to the purest possibilities of unschooling.
If she is six and has never been to school, maybe she wants to ride a bus, or have a teacher, or a lunch box, or to be around other kids. There are other ways to get a bus ride, a luch box, a teacher and other kids. Dance classes. Gymnastics. Martial arts, sports, music or art.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---If she is six and has never been to school, maybe she wants to ride a bus, or have a teacher, or a lunch box, or to be around other kids. There are other ways to get a bus ride, a luch box, a teacher and other kids. Dance classes. Gymnastics. Martial arts, sports, music or art.------
My daughter, who is seven, has gone through two periods of thinking school sounded like fun and something she wanted to try. The first time, when she was 4, a few dance classes and a visit to the local Montessori preschool were enough to change her mind.
More recently, after in-depth conversation, it turned out that school looked attractive because she could ride in a vehicle without a car seat (school bus). A trip to DC, where we rode in buses, taxis and the metro (all car seat-free) helped satisfy that desire.
Brie
My daughter, who is seven, has gone through two periods of thinking school sounded like fun and something she wanted to try. The first time, when she was 4, a few dance classes and a visit to the local Montessori preschool were enough to change her mind.
More recently, after in-depth conversation, it turned out that school looked attractive because she could ride in a vehicle without a car seat (school bus). A trip to DC, where we rode in buses, taxis and the metro (all car seat-free) helped satisfy that desire.
Brie
lalow
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
>For my daughter I think it is just a desire to be like most of the kids she knows. My daughter was adopted by us at the age of 4, she darker skinned than her friends, she wears glasses, her hair is different etc.. she sees herself as so different than the people she is around much of the time so she very much wants to be the same in as many ways as she can. We try very hard to provide her with situations and people that can help her feel more sameness but I think think this is her motivation behind going to school. She wants to go cause she thinks that is one way she can be the same as others. My fear is it would have the opposite effect than she thinks it would, even more differences would be pointed out and noted.
> ---If she is six and has never been to school, maybe she wants to ride a bus, or have a teacher, or a lunch box, or to be around other kids. There are other ways to get a bus ride, a luch box, a teacher and other kids. Dance classes. Gymnastics. Martial arts, sports, music or art.------
>
> My daughter, who is seven, has gone through two periods of thinking school sounded like fun and something she wanted to try. The first time, when she was 4, a few dance classes and a visit to the local Montessori preschool were enough to change her mind.
>
Beverly
--- In [email protected], Alan Forrester <alan_forrester2@...> wrote:
>I would NOT suggest this...while many folks feel they will NEVER have their kids in the public schools...some times things happen and that becomes the reality...they ARE in school, often after one or more unsettling events, and that is then compounded by a child's fear of school...the bad place their parent said they should never go to.
> --- On Mon, 6/12/10, gcriminy <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
>> If she is interested in hearing what you have to say about school explain why you think she won't like it. Explain to her that it's like the preschool, but about 1000 times worse. And also, she won't be allowed to go to the toilet without asking permission. Also explain that the teachers and many of the pupils will treat her very badly. School in real life is about as much like school on television as a real shark is like a cartoon shark out Finding Nemo. If, after you have explained this, she still wants to go, then you should help her to go and help her to make arrangements to make school less oppressive if she wants such measures.
Sandra Dodd
-=-More recently, after in-depth conversation, it turned out that school looked attractive because she could ride in a vehicle without a car seat (school bus). A trip to DC, where we rode in buses, taxis and the metro (all car seat-free) helped satisfy that desire.-=-
I'm kind of changing the subject...
If anyone here has a child who would love to ride in a vehicle without a car seat, and maybe without a seat belt, I highly recommend India. TONS of traffic, few seat belts, safe drivers because they all own their vehicles and bought them with cash. I think when the banks own cars, they (the banks and their insurance companies) make tons of insurance requirements to protect their cars and assets. In India, people are careful for real reasons of the protection of life. In the U.S., people drive carefully (IF they do) more to avoid getting a ticket, it seems. It was very different.
And back to the subject, yes... VERY often kids think they want school when what they really want is a fun experience like they saw on Arthur or Barney (to name shows Holly saw, and you can plug in the names of more recent kids' shows depicting fun, magical, cartoon sing-along schools), or they want The Magic Schoolbus, or they want a happy school lunch like they saw on a commercial for jello pudding or some such.
It's worth offering all kinds of rides, fun lunches and singalongs in other contexts to see if that will do.
AND...the big one:
IF school seems more interesting than home, MAKE HOME MORE INTERESTING!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm kind of changing the subject...
If anyone here has a child who would love to ride in a vehicle without a car seat, and maybe without a seat belt, I highly recommend India. TONS of traffic, few seat belts, safe drivers because they all own their vehicles and bought them with cash. I think when the banks own cars, they (the banks and their insurance companies) make tons of insurance requirements to protect their cars and assets. In India, people are careful for real reasons of the protection of life. In the U.S., people drive carefully (IF they do) more to avoid getting a ticket, it seems. It was very different.
And back to the subject, yes... VERY often kids think they want school when what they really want is a fun experience like they saw on Arthur or Barney (to name shows Holly saw, and you can plug in the names of more recent kids' shows depicting fun, magical, cartoon sing-along schools), or they want The Magic Schoolbus, or they want a happy school lunch like they saw on a commercial for jello pudding or some such.
It's worth offering all kinds of rides, fun lunches and singalongs in other contexts to see if that will do.
AND...the big one:
IF school seems more interesting than home, MAKE HOME MORE INTERESTING!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
Public school also has comparisons, favouritisms, unhealthy peer pressures,
much emphasis on grades and marks and unhealthy competition.
Are you sure you want to put your kids through all this?
Mostly it is just, the peripherals, that "a kid who wants to go to school"
misses. So find out if you could give her the peripherals by enrolling her
in other classes. Like picnics, trips, bus ride, groups to play with, group
activities, perhaps putting up a show etc. You could easily find all these
things if you explore dance classes, art classes, local homeschooling
support groups, public libraries or museums which perhaps have weekly
activities for groups etc.
Perhaps a language teacher who teaches in small groups at home. Or a animal
shelter which encourages kids to help out. A theater group for kids is a
wonderful activity to explore.
Dola
much emphasis on grades and marks and unhealthy competition.
Are you sure you want to put your kids through all this?
Mostly it is just, the peripherals, that "a kid who wants to go to school"
misses. So find out if you could give her the peripherals by enrolling her
in other classes. Like picnics, trips, bus ride, groups to play with, group
activities, perhaps putting up a show etc. You could easily find all these
things if you explore dance classes, art classes, local homeschooling
support groups, public libraries or museums which perhaps have weekly
activities for groups etc.
Perhaps a language teacher who teaches in small groups at home. Or a animal
shelter which encourages kids to help out. A theater group for kids is a
wonderful activity to explore.
Dola
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-Do you think public school might do any lasting harm? -=-
>
> If a thousand people said no it wouldn't, would that be a sure safety for
> her?
> If a thousand people said yes, it will, then what?
> What if 500 say yes and 500 say no?
>
> Pretty much everyone who's really thinking is going to need to say "it
> depends." But if by "lasting harm" you mean to her physical body, maybe. If
> you mean to her emotional state, maybe. If you mean to her natural learning,
> yes; it can't help but do that.
>
> School divides things into educational and non-educational, straight up.
> Then it divides the educational things into language, math, science,
> history, health, physical education, music (if you're lucky) and art (as
> though it has no overlap with the other things). Just learning those terms
> will do some harm to the purest possibilities of unschooling.
>
> If she is six and has never been to school, maybe she wants to ride a bus,
> or have a teacher, or a lunch box, or to be around other kids. There are
> other ways to get a bus ride, a luch box, a teacher and other kids. Dance
> classes. Gymnastics. Martial arts, sports, music or art.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JustSayin
One of my favorite quotes is from one of Sandra's videos (she may not even remember saying it, but I love it):
"I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't been."
But if it's an experiment and she's free to get out of it when she decides it is different than the common propaganda says it is, then probably she would not suffer the "damage" like full-time-schooled kids do. I think schooled kids suffer "damage" because there is (at least theoretically) no escape, even if they find it tedious and uninspiring.
--Melissa
"I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't been."
But if it's an experiment and she's free to get out of it when she decides it is different than the common propaganda says it is, then probably she would not suffer the "damage" like full-time-schooled kids do. I think schooled kids suffer "damage" because there is (at least theoretically) no escape, even if they find it tedious and uninspiring.
--Melissa
--- In [email protected], "gcriminy" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone.
>
> I have a six year old who wants to go to public school. She says she thinks it would be fun. Do you think it's worth it to let her try? I want her to feel she has the freedom to make her own best choices. I would vastly prefer to unschool her forever, but it's not about me. Do you think public school might do any lasting harm? I had her in a structured preschool when she was four, and she acted out violently and was very unhappy.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Jennifer
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-But if it's an experiment and she's free to get out of it when she decides it is different than the common propaganda says it is, then probably she would not suffer the "damage" like full-time-schooled kids do. I think schooled kids suffer "damage" because there is (at least theoretically) no escape, even if they find it tedious and uninspiring. =-
This was written about experiences my sister had, but none of her kids were quite that young. It's about the difference between a child going to school when the mother isn't pressing or desiring it, and otherwise--the difference in the experience.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
That supports this: "But if it's an experiment and she's free to get out of it when she decides it is different than the common propaganda says it is, then probably she would not suffer the "damage" like full-time-schooled kids do. I think schooled kids suffer "damage" because there is (at least theoretically) no escape, even if they find it tedious and uninspiring. "
But still... I think making home fascinating and unbeatable is the better way to go.
-=-One of my favorite quotes is from one of Sandra's videos (she may not even remember saying it, but I love it):
-=-"I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't been."-=-
That's true, too. Even people who think they weren't damaged by school will start to discover the ill effects once they get into the swing of unschooling. I used to think school hadn't hurt me, but over the years I can see it from a different perspective. I wasn't hurt in the blatant ways many of my friends and schoolmates were, but I lack the clear advantages and wholeness my never-schooled children have.
Sandra
This was written about experiences my sister had, but none of her kids were quite that young. It's about the difference between a child going to school when the mother isn't pressing or desiring it, and otherwise--the difference in the experience.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
That supports this: "But if it's an experiment and she's free to get out of it when she decides it is different than the common propaganda says it is, then probably she would not suffer the "damage" like full-time-schooled kids do. I think schooled kids suffer "damage" because there is (at least theoretically) no escape, even if they find it tedious and uninspiring. "
But still... I think making home fascinating and unbeatable is the better way to go.
-=-One of my favorite quotes is from one of Sandra's videos (she may not even remember saying it, but I love it):
-=-"I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't been."-=-
That's true, too. Even people who think they weren't damaged by school will start to discover the ill effects once they get into the swing of unschooling. I used to think school hadn't hurt me, but over the years I can see it from a different perspective. I wasn't hurt in the blatant ways many of my friends and schoolmates were, but I lack the clear advantages and wholeness my never-schooled children have.
Sandra
dola dasgupta-banerji
*************Even people who think they weren't damaged by school will start
to discover the ill effects once they get into the swing of unschooling. I
used to think school hadn't hurt me, but over the years I can see it from a
different perspective. I wasn't hurt in the blatant ways many of my friends
and schoolmates were, but I lack the clear advantages and wholeness my
never-schooled children have.*************
I also feel this. when I watch my children I feel how much I really missed
out on as a kid. And all the competition just got the better of me. and top
of it I used to be this super perfectionist and control freak so I was
always stressed out in trying to come top of the class. But hey you know I
topped high school exams. But guess what happened after that, I just went
sliding down and down all my University years. Simply because I kept
thinking all the time "what the hell am I doing here". Pure agony and pain
those years were. My true nature of being dedicated and strong willed could
have been put to much better and creative pursuits.....The damages of
school, conventional parenting, social norms and myths took a toll on me
which I can only explain in some other space.
I did not survive well, I do not know how many do? Or do they?
So now I decided to put all my dedication, will power and perseverance into
unschooling my children. Because what can be more creative than this!!
Dola
to discover the ill effects once they get into the swing of unschooling. I
used to think school hadn't hurt me, but over the years I can see it from a
different perspective. I wasn't hurt in the blatant ways many of my friends
and schoolmates were, but I lack the clear advantages and wholeness my
never-schooled children have.*************
I also feel this. when I watch my children I feel how much I really missed
out on as a kid. And all the competition just got the better of me. and top
of it I used to be this super perfectionist and control freak so I was
always stressed out in trying to come top of the class. But hey you know I
topped high school exams. But guess what happened after that, I just went
sliding down and down all my University years. Simply because I kept
thinking all the time "what the hell am I doing here". Pure agony and pain
those years were. My true nature of being dedicated and strong willed could
have been put to much better and creative pursuits.....The damages of
school, conventional parenting, social norms and myths took a toll on me
which I can only explain in some other space.
I did not survive well, I do not know how many do? Or do they?
So now I decided to put all my dedication, will power and perseverance into
unschooling my children. Because what can be more creative than this!!
Dola
k
Karl has been interested because of the school bus and being around other
kids. Our church is very pro-school (most are) and the short time there (2
hours tops) though not long enough for playing with other kids is in his
opinion too much time listening to people, even if it's mostly other kids,
talking while he is expected to sit and wait for it to be done. He has
ridden school buses a couple of times and had fun. His latest request is to
ride buses with other kids instead of the trips we've arranged with us
parents on board. Train rides at amusement parks are similar but I'll be
looking more into that kind of thing. He hasn't said anything recently about
that.
I really feel the main thing is for me to do more things with him. My
attention gets on other stuff and I lose track of time. I have been playing
Minecraft with him. I'm building models for the greenhouse I plan to
construct in another month or so, which Karl is interested in to some
degree, decorating for the holidays which he loves, found some great
snowflake patterns based on Star Wars, planning what we'll take when we
travel to Ohio and Pensacola, making concoctions he comes up with for him to
eat, and he comes with wishes of things to do every day or so.
Making life interesting is a not just a great distraction from school
though. :) Because when school ends, what is there? Life on a bigger scale.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids. Our church is very pro-school (most are) and the short time there (2
hours tops) though not long enough for playing with other kids is in his
opinion too much time listening to people, even if it's mostly other kids,
talking while he is expected to sit and wait for it to be done. He has
ridden school buses a couple of times and had fun. His latest request is to
ride buses with other kids instead of the trips we've arranged with us
parents on board. Train rides at amusement parks are similar but I'll be
looking more into that kind of thing. He hasn't said anything recently about
that.
I really feel the main thing is for me to do more things with him. My
attention gets on other stuff and I lose track of time. I have been playing
Minecraft with him. I'm building models for the greenhouse I plan to
construct in another month or so, which Karl is interested in to some
degree, decorating for the holidays which he loves, found some great
snowflake patterns based on Star Wars, planning what we'll take when we
travel to Ohio and Pensacola, making concoctions he comes up with for him to
eat, and he comes with wishes of things to do every day or so.
Making life interesting is a not just a great distraction from school
though. :) Because when school ends, what is there? Life on a bigger scale.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gcriminy
Hi! This is Jenny, the person who originally asked the public school question. I just wanted to say that all of you are wonderful and thank you for your thoughtful replies. What ended up happening is that once I called the school principal and set up an observation day for us, my daughter lost interest before the day even arrived. I think maybe she just wanted to know that she was permitted to go if she wanted to! :-) In general, she has hated all the organized, scheduled activities we've tried. I'm the same way, but I don't want to try to make her be like me. "Hey, you better be a free spirit or suffer the consequences!" :-) Anyway, thanks again. It is so good to have your voices when I'm not sure of my own.
--J
--J
--- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
>
> *************Even people who think they weren't damaged by school will start
> to discover the ill effects once they get into the swing of unschooling.
k
I think those who might have had more freedom at home had their parents
thought of it may get a case of "what's school for and what's it all for
anyway?" I did ok with school because it was a relief from situations in my
family. I don't mean I aced the grades. I had a wider very different world
because of school, like an alternate life. For some kids, that's what school
is. There are some good reasons for school, for kids whom school is not
doing such a number on, unbeknownst to them at the time perhaps. I thought I
was messing up school not to care about grades and so on. When I discovered
unschooling I realized that my attitude actually made some sense. I got
something worthy out of school even if I didn't enjoy it as much as I would
have liked to and I only realized some of this well after school was over
with. I also got more out of university once more freedom of choice came
into the picture (being of age as well as choice of courses, electives,
professors, paper topics, majors, etc.). None of college was compulsory even
if I were to lose money by dropping out. That's still a choice. (My parents
didn't send me. I went on my own though. I realize that isn't always the
case.)
What if not schooling were made compulsory by the absence of school? That
might not be such a good thing for unschooling were parents to tell their
kids they can't have the school experience. I would think parents could
provide some of that experience in some way in the absence of public school
(hard to imagine that hypothetical really). Of course a big reason school's
attractive is because it's there. Chicken and egg scenario.
Making children's lives fun is why school often seems attractive. Make
unschooling fun!
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought of it may get a case of "what's school for and what's it all for
anyway?" I did ok with school because it was a relief from situations in my
family. I don't mean I aced the grades. I had a wider very different world
because of school, like an alternate life. For some kids, that's what school
is. There are some good reasons for school, for kids whom school is not
doing such a number on, unbeknownst to them at the time perhaps. I thought I
was messing up school not to care about grades and so on. When I discovered
unschooling I realized that my attitude actually made some sense. I got
something worthy out of school even if I didn't enjoy it as much as I would
have liked to and I only realized some of this well after school was over
with. I also got more out of university once more freedom of choice came
into the picture (being of age as well as choice of courses, electives,
professors, paper topics, majors, etc.). None of college was compulsory even
if I were to lose money by dropping out. That's still a choice. (My parents
didn't send me. I went on my own though. I realize that isn't always the
case.)
What if not schooling were made compulsory by the absence of school? That
might not be such a good thing for unschooling were parents to tell their
kids they can't have the school experience. I would think parents could
provide some of that experience in some way in the absence of public school
(hard to imagine that hypothetical really). Of course a big reason school's
attractive is because it's there. Chicken and egg scenario.
Making children's lives fun is why school often seems attractive. Make
unschooling fun!
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"One of my favorite quotes is from one of Sandra's videos (she may not even
remember saying it, but I love it):
'I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't
been.'"
It's sort of like when I talk with others about corporal punishment, and they
say, "well I was spanked, and I'm fine." Ok... but how much better *could* you
be if you hadn't been spanked?
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
remember saying it, but I love it):
'I never knew how much damage school did until I saw some kids who hadn't
been.'"
It's sort of like when I talk with others about corporal punishment, and they
say, "well I was spanked, and I'm fine." Ok... but how much better *could* you
be if you hadn't been spanked?
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***We try very hard to provide her with situations and people that can help her
feel more sameness but I think think this is her motivation behind going to
school. She wants to go cause she thinks that is one way she can be the same as
others. My fear is it would have the opposite effect than she thinks it would,
even more differences would be pointed out and noted.***
She may struggle with that feeling her whole life whether or not she's in
school. Going to school would make her like all the other kids in the
neighborhood. She may or may not find others in school to fit in with. Some
kids do and some kids don't. I always found friends but my sister didn't. Kids
in general look for kindness in others, as kids in school grow older they still
look for kindness, but looks become more and more of a gauge for friendship.
That has been my experience. Kids who don't go to school, kids who unschool
tend to use a variety of measures to gauge a friendship and are less likely to
dismiss someone outright based on looks alone.
***She knows her alphabet but is not reading or writing much at all. She isnt
that motivated to do those things. She would be in the 2nd grade next year and
would be considered behind by school standards. I guess I would worry that her
feelings would be hurt or her self esteem. At home these things wouldnt matter
but at school attention would be drawn to them.***
A seven yr old going into second grade would probably not be considered behind
if they didn't know how to read yet, it isn't until they must do all the testing
that it becomes a huge problem. Testing starts in 3rd grade.
Motivation has little to do with the ability to read. Sometimes it coincides
with a child's ability to understand the written word and sometimes it doesn't.
In reality a 7 yr old has very little reason to need to be able to read and
write. If she wants to go to school, the school will give her reading readiness
exercises and call it reading, when in actuality, she'll be copying and sounding
out words, probably out of context, and doing worksheets with "sounds like"
pictures and other such nonsense that has little to do with actual reading.
That's what schools call reading for those early years of school. For the kids
that already have figured out how to read, they give them easy readers that
usually have lame stories that point out highlighted vocabulary words.
The Bob Books are kinda neat though. There are a few learning to read sort of
books out there that are kinda fun for a child interested.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feel more sameness but I think think this is her motivation behind going to
school. She wants to go cause she thinks that is one way she can be the same as
others. My fear is it would have the opposite effect than she thinks it would,
even more differences would be pointed out and noted.***
She may struggle with that feeling her whole life whether or not she's in
school. Going to school would make her like all the other kids in the
neighborhood. She may or may not find others in school to fit in with. Some
kids do and some kids don't. I always found friends but my sister didn't. Kids
in general look for kindness in others, as kids in school grow older they still
look for kindness, but looks become more and more of a gauge for friendship.
That has been my experience. Kids who don't go to school, kids who unschool
tend to use a variety of measures to gauge a friendship and are less likely to
dismiss someone outright based on looks alone.
***She knows her alphabet but is not reading or writing much at all. She isnt
that motivated to do those things. She would be in the 2nd grade next year and
would be considered behind by school standards. I guess I would worry that her
feelings would be hurt or her self esteem. At home these things wouldnt matter
but at school attention would be drawn to them.***
A seven yr old going into second grade would probably not be considered behind
if they didn't know how to read yet, it isn't until they must do all the testing
that it becomes a huge problem. Testing starts in 3rd grade.
Motivation has little to do with the ability to read. Sometimes it coincides
with a child's ability to understand the written word and sometimes it doesn't.
In reality a 7 yr old has very little reason to need to be able to read and
write. If she wants to go to school, the school will give her reading readiness
exercises and call it reading, when in actuality, she'll be copying and sounding
out words, probably out of context, and doing worksheets with "sounds like"
pictures and other such nonsense that has little to do with actual reading.
That's what schools call reading for those early years of school. For the kids
that already have figured out how to read, they give them easy readers that
usually have lame stories that point out highlighted vocabulary words.
The Bob Books are kinda neat though. There are a few learning to read sort of
books out there that are kinda fun for a child interested.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A seven yr old going into second grade would probably not be considered behind
if they didn't know how to read yet, it isn't until they must do all the testing
that it becomes a huge problem. Testing starts in 3rd grade.-=
This depends on the state and the district, and isn't universal even in the U.S. Some places don't do a standardized test until 5th grade. Some people live where there's no such thing as "3rd grade" or "5th grade." We have readers from a dozen countries--probably more.
Minor, but seems worth reminding people that blanket statements should be squinted at to see whether they're local or political or regional, rather than a simple truth about school and learning that could apply to anyone reading the discussion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
if they didn't know how to read yet, it isn't until they must do all the testing
that it becomes a huge problem. Testing starts in 3rd grade.-=
This depends on the state and the district, and isn't universal even in the U.S. Some places don't do a standardized test until 5th grade. Some people live where there's no such thing as "3rd grade" or "5th grade." We have readers from a dozen countries--probably more.
Minor, but seems worth reminding people that blanket statements should be squinted at to see whether they're local or political or regional, rather than a simple truth about school and learning that could apply to anyone reading the discussion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Public school also has comparisons, favouritisms, unhealthy peer pressures,
much emphasis on grades and marks and unhealthy competition.***
My least favorite parts of school have to do with that sort of thing, that
combined with adult shaming and the general lack of respect towards children as
people. Not all adults in school do this, some are really kind and sweet and
really genuinely love and understand kids. It's like going to the dentist
though, if you don't brush your teeth and you have cavities, you may get a
shaming lecture from your dentist, and if you brush your teeth and have cavities
you will be told that you need to get it fixed and keep up the good work of
taking care of your teeth. Either way you have a cavity, either way you need to
be fixed by an expert who tells you so. Some dentists are more understanding
and caring than others, but few, and I've yet to meet one, really ever admit
that cavities can sometimes fix themselves and that sometimes it has little to
do with how one cares for their teeth.
School can be like that too. I've yet to meet a teacher that stays in the
system that acknowledges that children don't always need to be fixed and that
learning has little to do with teaching, and tools used by teachers don't always
work.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
much emphasis on grades and marks and unhealthy competition.***
My least favorite parts of school have to do with that sort of thing, that
combined with adult shaming and the general lack of respect towards children as
people. Not all adults in school do this, some are really kind and sweet and
really genuinely love and understand kids. It's like going to the dentist
though, if you don't brush your teeth and you have cavities, you may get a
shaming lecture from your dentist, and if you brush your teeth and have cavities
you will be told that you need to get it fixed and keep up the good work of
taking care of your teeth. Either way you have a cavity, either way you need to
be fixed by an expert who tells you so. Some dentists are more understanding
and caring than others, but few, and I've yet to meet one, really ever admit
that cavities can sometimes fix themselves and that sometimes it has little to
do with how one cares for their teeth.
School can be like that too. I've yet to meet a teacher that stays in the
system that acknowledges that children don't always need to be fixed and that
learning has little to do with teaching, and tools used by teachers don't always
work.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Minor, but seems worth reminding people that blanket statements should be
squinted at to see whether they're local or political or regional, rather than a
simple truth about school and learning that could apply to anyone reading the
discussion.***
Yes true! I made a mental note as soon as I posted it. I've been reading US
testing and readiness things lately, and the general direction is toward
standardized testing at 3rd grade, but even so that isn't even true for all
schools in the US, and even less true for other places around the world.
In light of unschooling, kids aren't in grades, they are individuals learning
all the time. While some parents must keep track of grades and other data,
hopefully they act as buffers for their children. It's nice when I can forget
what "grade" my child would be in. It's happened many times over the years!
Then I must go back and count it. I'm intentionally not counting back to see
what grade Margaux would be in. I lost track and that's okay by me!
In the US, the trend to pull kids out of school seems to coincide with 3rd grade
and the stress from testing. It's what I've noticed over the years in general
homeschool forums, but that's not about unschooling, even if some of those
families come to unschool their kids. It's those little reminders of school and
living in the absence of school.
And that's the hold over thinking in my own head from school, when grades are
mentioned, I immediately go back to my own school experience, which is a US
experience and even though we didn't do rigorous testing until jr high school,
even THAT is a construct of school that isn't universal! Those are the bits
that always remain no matter how far I've come in my thoughts that don't include
school or school thinking!
It really does frame the way people think about ages and expectations and the
categories we put people in. It's glaringly different for my own children.
Especially noticeable in Chamille since she is older, that she really doesn't
have that in her thinking.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
squinted at to see whether they're local or political or regional, rather than a
simple truth about school and learning that could apply to anyone reading the
discussion.***
Yes true! I made a mental note as soon as I posted it. I've been reading US
testing and readiness things lately, and the general direction is toward
standardized testing at 3rd grade, but even so that isn't even true for all
schools in the US, and even less true for other places around the world.
In light of unschooling, kids aren't in grades, they are individuals learning
all the time. While some parents must keep track of grades and other data,
hopefully they act as buffers for their children. It's nice when I can forget
what "grade" my child would be in. It's happened many times over the years!
Then I must go back and count it. I'm intentionally not counting back to see
what grade Margaux would be in. I lost track and that's okay by me!
In the US, the trend to pull kids out of school seems to coincide with 3rd grade
and the stress from testing. It's what I've noticed over the years in general
homeschool forums, but that's not about unschooling, even if some of those
families come to unschool their kids. It's those little reminders of school and
living in the absence of school.
And that's the hold over thinking in my own head from school, when grades are
mentioned, I immediately go back to my own school experience, which is a US
experience and even though we didn't do rigorous testing until jr high school,
even THAT is a construct of school that isn't universal! Those are the bits
that always remain no matter how far I've come in my thoughts that don't include
school or school thinking!
It really does frame the way people think about ages and expectations and the
categories we put people in. It's glaringly different for my own children.
Especially noticeable in Chamille since she is older, that she really doesn't
have that in her thinking.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alma
I had to look up what age American 3rd grade is, and it seems that it's 8/9. In the UK this is equivalent to our year 4. I have noticed a surge of kids pulled out in our year 3 (age 7/8), but this is the year that our system starts testing. Seems that across US and UK at least it is the change in work/emphasis required for testing that makes the difference to whether or not it falls apart for kids/families rather than chronological age.
Alison
DS(8) and DS(5)
Alison
DS(8) and DS(5)
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-A seven yr old going into second grade would probably not be considered behind
> if they didn't know how to read yet, it isn't until they must do all the testing
> that it becomes a huge problem. Testing starts in 3rd grade.-=
>
> This depends on the state and the district, and isn't universal even in the U.S. Some places don't do a standardized test until 5th grade. Some people live where there's no such thing as "3rd grade" or "5th grade." We have readers from a dozen countries--probably more.
>
> Minor, but seems worth reminding people that blanket statements should be squinted at to see whether they're local or political or regional, rather than a simple truth about school and learning that could apply to anyone reading the discussion.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
k
Yes on American 3rd grade, and for me that year coincided with a move across
3 states from a school where I knew the kids to SC where I knew no one and
we moved way out in the boonies and it was during the years of the gas price
crunch of the mid 1970s. I hated every minute of it. Too many changes.
Another big changing year for me was 5th grade since it was a gear-up for
junior high school (6th grade) ... oh brother. Those were by far the hardest
years in school for me.
Karl would be in 2nd grade were he in school. You know why I know? And it's
not because I spent time counting it up. Because people ask and Karl likes
to have answers. I have no idea how he came up with it. It might be
deduction or a guess. I totally am not wanting to miss a moment of this time
with him. I don't remember being such a realist at 7 years old. We were
reading something about the 19th century hydrogen balloons (a chapter book)
and he said parts of it couldn't be true such as a balloon not burning up
over a volcano crater spewing sparks hundreds of feet into the air. But the
fiction in the story had it that the balloonists just experienced a lot of
uncomfortable heat. He's like "oh, no way."
~Katherine
3 states from a school where I knew the kids to SC where I knew no one and
we moved way out in the boonies and it was during the years of the gas price
crunch of the mid 1970s. I hated every minute of it. Too many changes.
Another big changing year for me was 5th grade since it was a gear-up for
junior high school (6th grade) ... oh brother. Those were by far the hardest
years in school for me.
Karl would be in 2nd grade were he in school. You know why I know? And it's
not because I spent time counting it up. Because people ask and Karl likes
to have answers. I have no idea how he came up with it. It might be
deduction or a guess. I totally am not wanting to miss a moment of this time
with him. I don't remember being such a realist at 7 years old. We were
reading something about the 19th century hydrogen balloons (a chapter book)
and he said parts of it couldn't be true such as a balloon not burning up
over a volcano crater spewing sparks hundreds of feet into the air. But the
fiction in the story had it that the balloonists just experienced a lot of
uncomfortable heat. He's like "oh, no way."
~Katherine
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 7:46 AM, alma <almadoing@...> wrote:
> I had to look up what age American 3rd grade is, and it seems that it's
> 8/9. In the UK this is equivalent to our year 4. I have noticed a surge of
> kids pulled out in our year 3 (age 7/8), but this is the year that our
> system starts testing. Seems that across US and UK at least it is the change
> in work/emphasis required for testing that makes the difference to whether
> or not it falls apart for kids/families rather than chronological age.
>
> Alison
> DS(8) and DS(5)
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]