Re: Hello, Goodbye, Sharing and reactions
hmbpie
=I don't think his not wearing a jacket is defiant, or unreasonable; it's a choice he's making. =
I can see your point but this ONE night there was something else going on besides just a choice to not wear a jacket. There are many times he doesn't wear a jacket when I think it is cold but he usually ties one to his waist. His decision, not mine to be prepared in case it is cold and on the off chance he doesn't bring a jacket I always grab one for him and if he says he wants his jacket I hand it to him. He doesn't want to be cold which, is why this one night it was clear there was some other driving force to the decisions he made when getting dressed.
We went bird watching this week and it was in the 50's and windy. I had on boots, pants, and a long sleeved shirt with a big fluffy sweatshirt on top plus a scarf. Austin chose to wear (after asking me if it was going to be hot or cold) sweatpants, boots, a t-shirt, gloves, a hat and a jacket tied around his waist. I personally was cold in two long sleeved shirts but, he was not in his t-shirt. Once he did get cold he put on his jacket.
=IF you honor him, IF you stop making him go places he doesn't want to, IF you let go even more, and accept even more.=
I have a hard time with the " IF you stop making him go places he doesn't want to" part of this sentence. We just moved to San Francisco and will be leaving by this summer. There are things I will regret if I don't experience while I am here and not knowing anyone to take Austin while I go gallivanting around means sometimes he does things with me that may not sound like so much fun to him. There are always choices of do you want to do this, this, this or this. We try very hard not to make "do you want liver or onions" type choices. Sometimes it happens. We try very hard in our house to keep everyone as happy as possible. It doesn't work 100% of the time. If something comes up that he doesn't want to do we try to make him as comfortable and as entertained as possible. I always have a bag in the car full of things he likes to do. Sometimes he chooses to open the bag. Sometimes he chooses to talk to us. Sometimes he chooses to gaze out the window. One time he was so quiet in the back and after a while he said, "Mom, I just watched the sunset." When we had out of town guests and they wanted to see the Golden Gate Bridge and he didn't want to go we brought a back pack full of video games, books, art supplies and toys to keep him occupied in the car ride and while we were there. He chose instead to talk to all of us and when we got to the bridge was quiet impressed with it and its size and in the end said he was glad he came and talked about how much fun he had. I will say in our family this sort of thing happens at least 95% of the time. Austin doesn't want to go somewhere but once the adventure begins he is quite happy to come along. I'm sure some could say he's enduring it because he feels like he feels he has no choice but I will say from the look in his eyes and the excitement in his voice that is not true. Sometimes it is.
I am trying very hard here to make the best decisions for my family. Sometimes they go well and I learn from them. Sometimes they do not go well and I learn from it.
= Poor guy can't even choose his own clothes without getting the third degree! =
Nobody got the third degree.
I said, "We had a situation the other night where we were all going out to dinner. It was in the 40's and raining. Before we got dressed we (my son and I) let the dog out and he dressed in rain boots, sweatpants, and a jacket. That made sense. It was cold and wet out. When it came time to get ready for dinner he came out in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops. I was so confused and when I asked him why he was dressed for summer he said this is how he wanted to dress. OK? I grabbed warm clothes and put them in my purse for when he did get cold. He never once said he was cold. When we came home it came out he didn't want to go to dinner so I guess the clothing choices were based on his desire to stay home and not go out? I don't know. It just seemed defiant and unreasonable."
I said =The conversation that night was; to ignore how your body feels in reaction to an old rule or to rebel against going to dinner by wearing clothes that are not reasonable choices and leave you uncomfortable is just a reaction to an old rule, not unschooling.=
Then Sandra said =Too many words for most boys. Not all. Some are wordy.=
I WAS using too many words. When we did have a conversation he told me the conversation was frustrating him and I apologized and stopped. Many days later when he was comfortable he came to me and talked about how he was feeling and I listened. It was not a third degree kind of conversation.
= When Sandra wrote, "We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the rules. That's reactionary", she was talking to the Mom! It doesn't mean you need to stop your child from being reactionary. YOU can stop giving him things to react against, and YOU can choose to not live by opposite rules. =
I think, "We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the rules." is a great principle to live by. It keeps us mindful of why we are making the decisions we are making.
I know a 15 year old girl right now in public school who wants her nose pierced. The school doesn't allow nose piercings. She is insisting on getting it done over Christmas break without thinking about other than she wants it done and doesn't care what the school thinks. She isn't thinking about how long it will take to heal or what she is going to do if the school makes her take it out. She isn't making an informed decision. She is reacting and pushing very hard back on a rule she doesn't agree with. What is more than likely going to happen is she will have to take it out if she wants to enter some teachers class instead of waiting until summer time to get it done so it can heal enough so that she can take it out during class or maybe even hope she has teachers next year that don't care as much.
= To talk to your son as if his clothing choice was "wrong" (which, I imagine, is how he would take it) is STILL being controlling, even if you're wanting to find out his thought process. =
Again, if he always chose to wear shorts, t-shirts and flip flops out in the rain when it is 47 degrees outside because it's what he felt comfortable in I wouldn't have noticed or said a thing but that wasn't the case. It would be like your husband doesn't normally wear a skirt to dinner and one night decides to wear a skirt to dinner. Would you not think, "Why is he wearing a skirt?" And maybe even ask him, "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?"
=Sometimes the parents should watch and wait and try a different approach the next time. Being partners, like being dance partners, sometimes you need to accept that the other person did something you didn't expect, and so anticipate that possibility the next time, but not as an adversary, as a team member.=
Maybe I've got it all wrong but for now what I can do is learn from the mistakes I made in the situation and pay more attention in the future and ask for advice here. That seems to have worked well for me so far.
I can see your point but this ONE night there was something else going on besides just a choice to not wear a jacket. There are many times he doesn't wear a jacket when I think it is cold but he usually ties one to his waist. His decision, not mine to be prepared in case it is cold and on the off chance he doesn't bring a jacket I always grab one for him and if he says he wants his jacket I hand it to him. He doesn't want to be cold which, is why this one night it was clear there was some other driving force to the decisions he made when getting dressed.
We went bird watching this week and it was in the 50's and windy. I had on boots, pants, and a long sleeved shirt with a big fluffy sweatshirt on top plus a scarf. Austin chose to wear (after asking me if it was going to be hot or cold) sweatpants, boots, a t-shirt, gloves, a hat and a jacket tied around his waist. I personally was cold in two long sleeved shirts but, he was not in his t-shirt. Once he did get cold he put on his jacket.
=IF you honor him, IF you stop making him go places he doesn't want to, IF you let go even more, and accept even more.=
I have a hard time with the " IF you stop making him go places he doesn't want to" part of this sentence. We just moved to San Francisco and will be leaving by this summer. There are things I will regret if I don't experience while I am here and not knowing anyone to take Austin while I go gallivanting around means sometimes he does things with me that may not sound like so much fun to him. There are always choices of do you want to do this, this, this or this. We try very hard not to make "do you want liver or onions" type choices. Sometimes it happens. We try very hard in our house to keep everyone as happy as possible. It doesn't work 100% of the time. If something comes up that he doesn't want to do we try to make him as comfortable and as entertained as possible. I always have a bag in the car full of things he likes to do. Sometimes he chooses to open the bag. Sometimes he chooses to talk to us. Sometimes he chooses to gaze out the window. One time he was so quiet in the back and after a while he said, "Mom, I just watched the sunset." When we had out of town guests and they wanted to see the Golden Gate Bridge and he didn't want to go we brought a back pack full of video games, books, art supplies and toys to keep him occupied in the car ride and while we were there. He chose instead to talk to all of us and when we got to the bridge was quiet impressed with it and its size and in the end said he was glad he came and talked about how much fun he had. I will say in our family this sort of thing happens at least 95% of the time. Austin doesn't want to go somewhere but once the adventure begins he is quite happy to come along. I'm sure some could say he's enduring it because he feels like he feels he has no choice but I will say from the look in his eyes and the excitement in his voice that is not true. Sometimes it is.
I am trying very hard here to make the best decisions for my family. Sometimes they go well and I learn from them. Sometimes they do not go well and I learn from it.
= Poor guy can't even choose his own clothes without getting the third degree! =
Nobody got the third degree.
I said, "We had a situation the other night where we were all going out to dinner. It was in the 40's and raining. Before we got dressed we (my son and I) let the dog out and he dressed in rain boots, sweatpants, and a jacket. That made sense. It was cold and wet out. When it came time to get ready for dinner he came out in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops. I was so confused and when I asked him why he was dressed for summer he said this is how he wanted to dress. OK? I grabbed warm clothes and put them in my purse for when he did get cold. He never once said he was cold. When we came home it came out he didn't want to go to dinner so I guess the clothing choices were based on his desire to stay home and not go out? I don't know. It just seemed defiant and unreasonable."
I said =The conversation that night was; to ignore how your body feels in reaction to an old rule or to rebel against going to dinner by wearing clothes that are not reasonable choices and leave you uncomfortable is just a reaction to an old rule, not unschooling.=
Then Sandra said =Too many words for most boys. Not all. Some are wordy.=
I WAS using too many words. When we did have a conversation he told me the conversation was frustrating him and I apologized and stopped. Many days later when he was comfortable he came to me and talked about how he was feeling and I listened. It was not a third degree kind of conversation.
= When Sandra wrote, "We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the rules. That's reactionary", she was talking to the Mom! It doesn't mean you need to stop your child from being reactionary. YOU can stop giving him things to react against, and YOU can choose to not live by opposite rules. =
I think, "We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the rules." is a great principle to live by. It keeps us mindful of why we are making the decisions we are making.
I know a 15 year old girl right now in public school who wants her nose pierced. The school doesn't allow nose piercings. She is insisting on getting it done over Christmas break without thinking about other than she wants it done and doesn't care what the school thinks. She isn't thinking about how long it will take to heal or what she is going to do if the school makes her take it out. She isn't making an informed decision. She is reacting and pushing very hard back on a rule she doesn't agree with. What is more than likely going to happen is she will have to take it out if she wants to enter some teachers class instead of waiting until summer time to get it done so it can heal enough so that she can take it out during class or maybe even hope she has teachers next year that don't care as much.
= To talk to your son as if his clothing choice was "wrong" (which, I imagine, is how he would take it) is STILL being controlling, even if you're wanting to find out his thought process. =
Again, if he always chose to wear shorts, t-shirts and flip flops out in the rain when it is 47 degrees outside because it's what he felt comfortable in I wouldn't have noticed or said a thing but that wasn't the case. It would be like your husband doesn't normally wear a skirt to dinner and one night decides to wear a skirt to dinner. Would you not think, "Why is he wearing a skirt?" And maybe even ask him, "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?"
=Sometimes the parents should watch and wait and try a different approach the next time. Being partners, like being dance partners, sometimes you need to accept that the other person did something you didn't expect, and so anticipate that possibility the next time, but not as an adversary, as a team member.=
Maybe I've got it all wrong but for now what I can do is learn from the mistakes I made in the situation and pay more attention in the future and ask for advice here. That seems to have worked well for me so far.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have a hard time with the " IF you stop making him go places he doesn't want to" part of this sentence. We just moved to San Francisco and will be leaving by this summer. There are things I will regret if I don't experience while I am here and not knowing anyone to take Austin while I go gallivanting around means sometimes he does things with me that may not sound like so much fun to him. -=-
But none of us will have a hard time with it.
Your gallivanting, your choice to inconvenience him for your benefit, will affect him, and you, and your relationship, but will not affect others on this list.
-=-His decision, not mine to be prepared in case it is cold and on the off chance he doesn't bring a jacket I always grab one for him and if he says he wants his jacket I hand it to him. -=-
This is unclear. You don't need to clarify it for us, but I'd like to put it up as an example of confused thought.
It's likely that more time spent being calm and thinking about what could go better the next time would be more useful to you than posting on the list, especially if the posts are pouring out without careful thought or proofreading.
-=-. I will say in our family this sort of thing happens at least 95% of the time. Austin doesn't want to go somewhere but once the adventure begins he is quite happy to come along. I'm sure some could say he's enduring it because he feels like he feels he has no choice but I will say from the look in his eyes and the excitement in his voice that is not true. Sometimes it is.-=-
It's been true of my kids many times (and of me myself, too) that going reluctantly out of courtesy often turns into a nice outing. But make it out of courtesy, not out of martyrdom, if you can, and you'll be a step ahead. Ask him whether he will please go for your benefit, since you want to see these things before you move.
-=-Nobody got the third degree.
-=-I said, "We had a situation the other night ...-=-
It wasn't there, I think, in the first telling. It was in a later post asking whether you should ask him, or telling us you were just going to ask him why. (I think; I don't want to go back and read it all.)
-=-= To talk to your son as if his clothing choice was "wrong" (which, I imagine, is how he would take it) is STILL being controlling, even if you're wanting to find out his thought process. =
-=-Again, if he...-=-
Please don't begin responses with "Again..." for a couple of reasons. It sounds shaming, as though you don't think someone read your (very lengthy, and not always clear) posts well enough. And new people join the list every single day. Ten this week (a light week). Each post could be the very first post someone reads on the list, and it needs to be helpful to them, if possible.
-=- It would be like your husband doesn't normally wear a skirt to dinner and one night decides to wear a skirt to dinner. Would you not think, "Why is he wearing a skirt?" And maybe even ask him, "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?"-=-
Would you really ask your husband that question? You don't need to tell us.
I would not ever (ever) say to my husband "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?" There is a condescending tone and a CLEAR note of disapproval.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But none of us will have a hard time with it.
Your gallivanting, your choice to inconvenience him for your benefit, will affect him, and you, and your relationship, but will not affect others on this list.
-=-His decision, not mine to be prepared in case it is cold and on the off chance he doesn't bring a jacket I always grab one for him and if he says he wants his jacket I hand it to him. -=-
This is unclear. You don't need to clarify it for us, but I'd like to put it up as an example of confused thought.
It's likely that more time spent being calm and thinking about what could go better the next time would be more useful to you than posting on the list, especially if the posts are pouring out without careful thought or proofreading.
-=-. I will say in our family this sort of thing happens at least 95% of the time. Austin doesn't want to go somewhere but once the adventure begins he is quite happy to come along. I'm sure some could say he's enduring it because he feels like he feels he has no choice but I will say from the look in his eyes and the excitement in his voice that is not true. Sometimes it is.-=-
It's been true of my kids many times (and of me myself, too) that going reluctantly out of courtesy often turns into a nice outing. But make it out of courtesy, not out of martyrdom, if you can, and you'll be a step ahead. Ask him whether he will please go for your benefit, since you want to see these things before you move.
-=-Nobody got the third degree.
-=-I said, "We had a situation the other night ...-=-
It wasn't there, I think, in the first telling. It was in a later post asking whether you should ask him, or telling us you were just going to ask him why. (I think; I don't want to go back and read it all.)
-=-= To talk to your son as if his clothing choice was "wrong" (which, I imagine, is how he would take it) is STILL being controlling, even if you're wanting to find out his thought process. =
-=-Again, if he...-=-
Please don't begin responses with "Again..." for a couple of reasons. It sounds shaming, as though you don't think someone read your (very lengthy, and not always clear) posts well enough. And new people join the list every single day. Ten this week (a light week). Each post could be the very first post someone reads on the list, and it needs to be helpful to them, if possible.
-=- It would be like your husband doesn't normally wear a skirt to dinner and one night decides to wear a skirt to dinner. Would you not think, "Why is he wearing a skirt?" And maybe even ask him, "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?"-=-
Would you really ask your husband that question? You don't need to tell us.
I would not ever (ever) say to my husband "Dear, are you sure that's what you want to wear tonight?" There is a condescending tone and a CLEAR note of disapproval.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]