Hello and Goodbye, and sharing
nycartgal2003
I recently re-connected with my sister after a falling out.
I'm glad she is back in my life, the break was good for both of us.
We have different views about parenting, and she had a few things to say to me today that I would like to run by all of you.
Logan, who will be 4 on 12/4, sometimes says hello and goodby to people, sometimes not.
This bothers my sister. She says it hurts people's feelings, and it's our job as parents to teach him manners because that is part of living in our culture. I get that, but he is sometimes uncomforatable talking to people he does not see that often, and we don't push it.
We were at a family gathering last week:
Part I
Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with him.
He said no. I asked Olivia if she would like to play a game on my iphone instead, she did.
Of course Logan wanted the iphone soon after, but I told him that Olivia was playing with it, and he could have a turn next.
All seemed well.
My sister, Alison told me today that she thinks I should have told Logan if he did not share the toy that nobody would get to play with it. I thought things were cool because both kids were happy, but Alison said that Olivia always shares with Logan, and he is not learning that he can't have everything his way.
He has been very good with sharing his toys as he is getting older most of the time.
He adores Olivia, and really missed her when my sister and I were estranged.
Part II
Logan did give Alison and Olivia big hugs hello, but he did not say goodbye when we left.
I was so thrilled that he hugged my sister hello, (very unusual for him), that I did not think
it was a big deal that he did not say goodbye. He was tired and fell asleep as soon as we got in the car.
Today I was told me that Olivia's feelings were hurt that Logan did not say goodbye to her.
I feel bad that she was hurt, my sister and her husband are going through an ugly break-up, and I don't want to add to Olivia's upset. She is a sensitive, sweet girl.
The last bit I got from Alison is that she is really worried that Logan will not have friends because he isn't polite or respectful.
She also said that I could at least work with him on this with family, people that we love.
He already has some friends who he loves and plays well with.
He even considers his friend's parents his friends too because he loves talking to them and they really seem to get him.
I don't want to do him a disservice in the world.
How do you all feel about hello and goodbye, and sharing?
Thanks,
Meryl
I'm glad she is back in my life, the break was good for both of us.
We have different views about parenting, and she had a few things to say to me today that I would like to run by all of you.
Logan, who will be 4 on 12/4, sometimes says hello and goodby to people, sometimes not.
This bothers my sister. She says it hurts people's feelings, and it's our job as parents to teach him manners because that is part of living in our culture. I get that, but he is sometimes uncomforatable talking to people he does not see that often, and we don't push it.
We were at a family gathering last week:
Part I
Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with him.
He said no. I asked Olivia if she would like to play a game on my iphone instead, she did.
Of course Logan wanted the iphone soon after, but I told him that Olivia was playing with it, and he could have a turn next.
All seemed well.
My sister, Alison told me today that she thinks I should have told Logan if he did not share the toy that nobody would get to play with it. I thought things were cool because both kids were happy, but Alison said that Olivia always shares with Logan, and he is not learning that he can't have everything his way.
He has been very good with sharing his toys as he is getting older most of the time.
He adores Olivia, and really missed her when my sister and I were estranged.
Part II
Logan did give Alison and Olivia big hugs hello, but he did not say goodbye when we left.
I was so thrilled that he hugged my sister hello, (very unusual for him), that I did not think
it was a big deal that he did not say goodbye. He was tired and fell asleep as soon as we got in the car.
Today I was told me that Olivia's feelings were hurt that Logan did not say goodbye to her.
I feel bad that she was hurt, my sister and her husband are going through an ugly break-up, and I don't want to add to Olivia's upset. She is a sensitive, sweet girl.
The last bit I got from Alison is that she is really worried that Logan will not have friends because he isn't polite or respectful.
She also said that I could at least work with him on this with family, people that we love.
He already has some friends who he loves and plays well with.
He even considers his friend's parents his friends too because he loves talking to them and they really seem to get him.
I don't want to do him a disservice in the world.
How do you all feel about hello and goodbye, and sharing?
Thanks,
Meryl
Marina DeLuca-Howard
You can say goodbye on his behalf when he is feeling tired or shy. He may
echo it back or wave or give some sign of acknowledgement--he may not.
Here is another way to look at sharing...
1. Would you lend anyone your car? For a day? A week? How about 6 months?
Or a year?
2. If your sister asked you for 5 000 dollar would you just hand it over?
How come you aren't sharing? How about if she wanted to borrow your house
for a year or two?
When adults are asked to share things that are important to them they find
it easier to say "no", though they cannot accept that children have things
that are important to them and also should have some choice about what those
things are that they feel they cannot share. If your child never shares you
may want to help him figure it out. However if your child sometimes shares
its fine. My kids found sharing food, no matter how coveted or how much of
a treat it was easier than beloved toys.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
echo it back or wave or give some sign of acknowledgement--he may not.
Here is another way to look at sharing...
1. Would you lend anyone your car? For a day? A week? How about 6 months?
Or a year?
2. If your sister asked you for 5 000 dollar would you just hand it over?
How come you aren't sharing? How about if she wanted to borrow your house
for a year or two?
When adults are asked to share things that are important to them they find
it easier to say "no", though they cannot accept that children have things
that are important to them and also should have some choice about what those
things are that they feel they cannot share. If your child never shares you
may want to help him figure it out. However if your child sometimes shares
its fine. My kids found sharing food, no matter how coveted or how much of
a treat it was easier than beloved toys.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Today I was told me that Olivia's feelings were hurt that Logan did not say
goodbye to her. ***
Did she say goodbye to him? When guests leave our house, we all make a point of
saying goodbye. It helps people leave happier, especially little kids. At 4, I
wouldn't have expected an answer either way, but as the host, I would have said
a hello and goodbye special just for him. I put the onus on me in social
situations, especially with kids. I'm the adult. If Olivia had said goodbye
and Logan ignored her, as his parent, I would have said something like, "Logan
seems tired, I'm sure he'll miss you, and we'll see you again soon."
As far as sharing, I wouldn't ever force a 4 yr old to share a toy they were
already playing with. I might suggest taking turns. Or, as it played out, he
wanted something that the other child had a bit later on, at that point I might
have suggested trading play things. If the goal is happy kids playing nicely,
then there are lots of ways to accomplish that. Taking a toy away and refusing
to let anyone play with it, doesn't accomplish that goal if it makes a child
unhappy.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodbye to her. ***
Did she say goodbye to him? When guests leave our house, we all make a point of
saying goodbye. It helps people leave happier, especially little kids. At 4, I
wouldn't have expected an answer either way, but as the host, I would have said
a hello and goodbye special just for him. I put the onus on me in social
situations, especially with kids. I'm the adult. If Olivia had said goodbye
and Logan ignored her, as his parent, I would have said something like, "Logan
seems tired, I'm sure he'll miss you, and we'll see you again soon."
As far as sharing, I wouldn't ever force a 4 yr old to share a toy they were
already playing with. I might suggest taking turns. Or, as it played out, he
wanted something that the other child had a bit later on, at that point I might
have suggested trading play things. If the goal is happy kids playing nicely,
then there are lots of ways to accomplish that. Taking a toy away and refusing
to let anyone play with it, doesn't accomplish that goal if it makes a child
unhappy.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nycartgal2003
>If Logan does not want to say hello, goodbye, or thank you, my husband and I do as you suggested. It just does not seem to be enough for many adults.
>*** Did she say goodbye to him? When guests leave our house, we all make a point of
> saying goodbye. It helps people leave happier, especially little kids. At 4, I
> wouldn't have expected an answer either way, but as the host, I would have said
> a hello and goodbye special just for him. I put the onus on me in social
> situations, especially with kids. I'm the adult. If Olivia had said goodbye
> and Logan ignored her, as his parent, I would have said something like, "Logan
> seems tired, I'm sure he'll miss you, and we'll see you again soon." ***
We barely speak to my brother-in-law (who does not have kids) because he thinks Logan is rude and anti-social. I'm struggling because I know we are doing right by our son, and I feel as if I could lose my family. Both my grandmas
have died in the last year and a half, which has been hard on me. I want Logan to have family in his life who love him just as he is.
Meryl
>
> As far as sharing, I wouldn't ever force a 4 yr old to share a toy they were
> already playing with. I might suggest taking turns. Or, as it played out, he
> wanted something that the other child had a bit later on, at that point I might
> have suggested trading play things. If the goal is happy kids playing nicely,
> then there are lots of ways to accomplish that. Taking a toy away and refusing
> to let anyone play with it, doesn't accomplish that goal if it makes a child
> unhappy.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
mari teaches
hello group, i been on this list a while. i know I am a lurker and always in
the shadows reaping in all the great advice. But i wanted to ask about the
goodbye thing and share something a friend said to me about why she never
says goodbye to anyone and she is an adult.
have you asked Logan why he doesn't say goodbye? was it just that one time,
or always? with one person or everyone? maybe his not wanting to say goodbye
just needs to be validated allowing him the ok?
reason i say this is because a long time child hood friend told me she never
ever says goodbye, i never realized it until recently. when i asked her why,
she says she never does, she feels that saying goodbye to someone seems like
its forever. as if she will never see them again. they will never return. so
she will tell you see you soon, or see you later, or something like that,
but never goodbye, or something that even sounds like it. i used to know
another person like that a long time ago, now that i think of it more, but i
can't remember whom that is lol.
as for the sharing thing, i feel the same way a some others feel. you
offered the little girl your phone and the girl was happy with that, if the
girl was not im sure you would have recieved some sort of vibes from that.
maybe mom is using the childs "feelings" as an excuse to have her say as to
how your raising your child? logan should be respected in the sense that he
should not be expected to share every single thing he has, and neither
should the girl, yes it is nice for others, but is it validating the childs
own rights as to what it is they really want?
--
Mari
VP~ http://www.ihn-brevard.com
Independant Homeschoolers Network
http://www.facebook.com/MagicalMari
http://www.sprinkle-of-fun.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workboxes
http://www.childworkboxes.blogspot.com
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/florida_trips/
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lovemypet/
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/TeachersandParents
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/need2scream
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the shadows reaping in all the great advice. But i wanted to ask about the
goodbye thing and share something a friend said to me about why she never
says goodbye to anyone and she is an adult.
have you asked Logan why he doesn't say goodbye? was it just that one time,
or always? with one person or everyone? maybe his not wanting to say goodbye
just needs to be validated allowing him the ok?
reason i say this is because a long time child hood friend told me she never
ever says goodbye, i never realized it until recently. when i asked her why,
she says she never does, she feels that saying goodbye to someone seems like
its forever. as if she will never see them again. they will never return. so
she will tell you see you soon, or see you later, or something like that,
but never goodbye, or something that even sounds like it. i used to know
another person like that a long time ago, now that i think of it more, but i
can't remember whom that is lol.
as for the sharing thing, i feel the same way a some others feel. you
offered the little girl your phone and the girl was happy with that, if the
girl was not im sure you would have recieved some sort of vibes from that.
maybe mom is using the childs "feelings" as an excuse to have her say as to
how your raising your child? logan should be respected in the sense that he
should not be expected to share every single thing he has, and neither
should the girl, yes it is nice for others, but is it validating the childs
own rights as to what it is they really want?
--
Mari
VP~ http://www.ihn-brevard.com
Independant Homeschoolers Network
http://www.facebook.com/MagicalMari
http://www.sprinkle-of-fun.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workboxes
http://www.childworkboxes.blogspot.com
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/florida_trips/
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lovemypet/
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/TeachersandParents
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/need2scream
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***It just does not seem to be enough for many adults.
We barely speak to my brother-in-law (who does not have kids) because he thinks
Logan is rude and anti-social.***
I don't know why this is so often true. Many adults expect kids to behave like
mini adults. Kids are still learning social cues, some easier than others on
that front. Even so, I don't always say "good bye", sometimes I leave if there
is a window to leave and will send a text or email or give a quick call a bit
later saying that I was sorry I hadn't said good bye. That usually only happens
in group situations.
With family, we have prolonged good bye rituals that involve the host family
members doing exaggerated waves from the front steps to wave the leaving car
good bye. Everyone in the car waves back until we no longer see each other.
It's just what we do. If a kid doesn't say good bye, they can wave from the
car. That might be a lot of fanfare, but it's fun and it makes for happy good
bye's. The good bye is an implied gesture from everyone in the whole, not put
upon a single person, adult or child.
It bothers me that there are adults who expect kids to meet their level and then
are disappointed with the kids for not doing so. We try to avoid those kinds of
adults! Adults should meet the child where they are at, in general. However
since those kinds of adults exist, our kids must find ways to deal or not deal
with them, and as parents we can help by being a buffer.
I personally think it's rude and anti-social for an adult to have expectations
of children that aren't even remotely developmentally appropriate. I assume
it's because they weren't treated kindly as a child and forget what it's like to
BE a child. Sometimes I remind adults like that about how they felt meeting
strangers or relatives they didn't see often as a child.
I remember clearly how I felt in those circumstances. I felt both shy and happy
to see people that I liked but didn't see often. It always took a few hours to
warm up and get in the groove of those connections. It took adults being
friendly and kind and welcoming.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We barely speak to my brother-in-law (who does not have kids) because he thinks
Logan is rude and anti-social.***
I don't know why this is so often true. Many adults expect kids to behave like
mini adults. Kids are still learning social cues, some easier than others on
that front. Even so, I don't always say "good bye", sometimes I leave if there
is a window to leave and will send a text or email or give a quick call a bit
later saying that I was sorry I hadn't said good bye. That usually only happens
in group situations.
With family, we have prolonged good bye rituals that involve the host family
members doing exaggerated waves from the front steps to wave the leaving car
good bye. Everyone in the car waves back until we no longer see each other.
It's just what we do. If a kid doesn't say good bye, they can wave from the
car. That might be a lot of fanfare, but it's fun and it makes for happy good
bye's. The good bye is an implied gesture from everyone in the whole, not put
upon a single person, adult or child.
It bothers me that there are adults who expect kids to meet their level and then
are disappointed with the kids for not doing so. We try to avoid those kinds of
adults! Adults should meet the child where they are at, in general. However
since those kinds of adults exist, our kids must find ways to deal or not deal
with them, and as parents we can help by being a buffer.
I personally think it's rude and anti-social for an adult to have expectations
of children that aren't even remotely developmentally appropriate. I assume
it's because they weren't treated kindly as a child and forget what it's like to
BE a child. Sometimes I remind adults like that about how they felt meeting
strangers or relatives they didn't see often as a child.
I remember clearly how I felt in those circumstances. I felt both shy and happy
to see people that I liked but didn't see often. It always took a few hours to
warm up and get in the groove of those connections. It took adults being
friendly and kind and welcoming.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
:::-:::We barely speak to my brother-in-law (who does not have kids) because he thinks Logan is rude and anti-social. I'm struggling because I know we are doing right by our son, and I feel as if I could lose my family. Both my grandmas
have died in the last year and a half, which has been hard on me. I want Logan to have family in his life who love him just as he is.:::-:::
My sister has judged my first-born and our parenting style from my eldest's birth. I totally relate to the desire to have one's child unconditionally loved. Just because one has family does not guarantee that all family members know how to love unconditionally. I prefer my children (and my hubby and myself) maintain boundaries we are comfortable with our family as well as others. As a result, we recognize that each one of us chooses what actions we take (hellos, goodbyes and sharing). If others around us are affected in a way that merits discussion, there's always room for acknowledgment and discussion, but I cannot choose for my daughter what she will say (hello/goodbye) or feel/do (share). As it turns out, my eldest prefers to say, "See you soon," -- she hates goodbyes. And when she shares (she's 4), it's because she really wants to share, not because she has been pressured to share by others' expectations.
Peace,
Ceci
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have died in the last year and a half, which has been hard on me. I want Logan to have family in his life who love him just as he is.:::-:::
My sister has judged my first-born and our parenting style from my eldest's birth. I totally relate to the desire to have one's child unconditionally loved. Just because one has family does not guarantee that all family members know how to love unconditionally. I prefer my children (and my hubby and myself) maintain boundaries we are comfortable with our family as well as others. As a result, we recognize that each one of us chooses what actions we take (hellos, goodbyes and sharing). If others around us are affected in a way that merits discussion, there's always room for acknowledgment and discussion, but I cannot choose for my daughter what she will say (hello/goodbye) or feel/do (share). As it turns out, my eldest prefers to say, "See you soon," -- she hates goodbyes. And when she shares (she's 4), it's because she really wants to share, not because she has been pressured to share by others' expectations.
Peace,
Ceci
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-We were at a family gathering last week:
Part I
Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with
him.
He said no.-=-
I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.
-=-my sister and her husband are going through an ugly break-up,-=-
Your estrangement from your sister, and her breakup with her
husband... Do they have to do with her being too critical and
controlling? Because if so, it might be a kindness to her to mention
that, if you can do so in a nice way. Maybe your sister needs to
practice getting along with other people, and work on being more
accepting of people's differences.
That said, though, I think it's good to coach kids on courtesies.
-=-The last bit I got from Alison is that she is really worried that
Logan will not have friends because he isn't polite or respectful.-=-
It's a reasonable concern, but was she "really worried" or was she
trying to manipulate you into doing things her way?
I do think some unschooled kids could use better manners, and that
some unschooling parents go too far toward "whatever" and some nearly
seem to encourage their children to do the opposite of what the
parents were "made to do." In our own family, that was never a
consideration at all. Someone recently said to me, about a gift I had
bought for Holly, that it was like what a lot of girls were wearing,
and then said oh, but you're unschoolers so you probably want her to
wear something that's not like what the other girls wear. I
understood the comment in context, but it was awkward, and NOT the way
I think, or Holly thinks. Different for the sake of being different
isn't any requirement of unschooling.
The opposite of "do everything that's expected" might be "do NOTHING
that's expected."
We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the
rules. That's reactionary.
Replacing rules with new rules isn't living by principles. There are
expectations of visitors and hosts. Pretending there aren't is a
disservice. A child can say something or wave, or smile, or
SOMEthing, without being forced to "say goodbye." The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.
When my kids were little and first started going to birthday parties
or play dates where I might not be, I said it was nice, when they
left, to say something like "thanks for inviting me." And because I
told them why, and suggested some words, they jumped on it and did it
and still do such things.
I think the expectations should meet in the middle, the sister wanting
"all" and the other sister being willing to defend "none."
http://sandradodd.com/balance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Part I
Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with
him.
He said no.-=-
I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.
-=-my sister and her husband are going through an ugly break-up,-=-
Your estrangement from your sister, and her breakup with her
husband... Do they have to do with her being too critical and
controlling? Because if so, it might be a kindness to her to mention
that, if you can do so in a nice way. Maybe your sister needs to
practice getting along with other people, and work on being more
accepting of people's differences.
That said, though, I think it's good to coach kids on courtesies.
-=-The last bit I got from Alison is that she is really worried that
Logan will not have friends because he isn't polite or respectful.-=-
It's a reasonable concern, but was she "really worried" or was she
trying to manipulate you into doing things her way?
I do think some unschooled kids could use better manners, and that
some unschooling parents go too far toward "whatever" and some nearly
seem to encourage their children to do the opposite of what the
parents were "made to do." In our own family, that was never a
consideration at all. Someone recently said to me, about a gift I had
bought for Holly, that it was like what a lot of girls were wearing,
and then said oh, but you're unschoolers so you probably want her to
wear something that's not like what the other girls wear. I
understood the comment in context, but it was awkward, and NOT the way
I think, or Holly thinks. Different for the sake of being different
isn't any requirement of unschooling.
The opposite of "do everything that's expected" might be "do NOTHING
that's expected."
We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the
rules. That's reactionary.
Replacing rules with new rules isn't living by principles. There are
expectations of visitors and hosts. Pretending there aren't is a
disservice. A child can say something or wave, or smile, or
SOMEthing, without being forced to "say goodbye." The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.
When my kids were little and first started going to birthday parties
or play dates where I might not be, I said it was nice, when they
left, to say something like "thanks for inviting me." And because I
told them why, and suggested some words, they jumped on it and did it
and still do such things.
I think the expectations should meet in the middle, the sister wanting
"all" and the other sister being willing to defend "none."
http://sandradodd.com/balance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
On 21 November 2010 22:41, nycartgal2003 <mranzer@...> wrote:
Sometimes small children don't like to say goodbye when they are tired; I've
known several children like that. It may be worth trying to make your visits
shorter, so you leave before he's getting sleepy.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>He was tired and fell asleep as soon as we got in the car.
> Logan, who will be 4 on 12/4, sometimes says hello and goodby to people,
> sometimes not.
> .........
> Logan did give Alison and Olivia big hugs hello, but he did not say goodbye
> when we left. .........
>----------------------------------
Sometimes small children don't like to say goodbye when they are tired; I've
known several children like that. It may be worth trying to make your visits
shorter, so you leave before he's getting sleepy.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
d.lewis
***I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.***
That's what we did too. I'd remind Dylan that the other kid would probably
want to play with whatever he brought so it ought to be something he didn't
mind sharing. And I'd remind him the toy would come home with us because I
think sharing can be kind of scary. It might seem like the other kid won't
give the toy back.
***Logan, who will be 4 on 12/4, sometimes says hello and goodbye to people,
sometimes not.***
Three is really little. I don't know why an adult would expect a three year
old to always say hello and goodbye.
And I don't think a three year old can be expected to know why he might not
say it.
***told me that Olivia's feelings were hurt that Logan did not say goodbye
to her. ***
If the mom, who ought to know better, is making a big deal of it I'd guess
some of Olivia's hurt feelings were coached. How old is Olivia? Next
time you see her maybe you can tell her Logan has lots of fun with her and
you'll say goodbye on Logan's behalf until he remembers to say it. I bet
Olivia will understand.
Your sister's going through a rough time but I'd still tell her to chill.
He's three. Three is really young to expect generous sharing and perfect
social skills. Four is really young, too.
Deb Lewis
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.***
That's what we did too. I'd remind Dylan that the other kid would probably
want to play with whatever he brought so it ought to be something he didn't
mind sharing. And I'd remind him the toy would come home with us because I
think sharing can be kind of scary. It might seem like the other kid won't
give the toy back.
***Logan, who will be 4 on 12/4, sometimes says hello and goodbye to people,
sometimes not.***
Three is really little. I don't know why an adult would expect a three year
old to always say hello and goodbye.
And I don't think a three year old can be expected to know why he might not
say it.
***told me that Olivia's feelings were hurt that Logan did not say goodbye
to her. ***
If the mom, who ought to know better, is making a big deal of it I'd guess
some of Olivia's hurt feelings were coached. How old is Olivia? Next
time you see her maybe you can tell her Logan has lots of fun with her and
you'll say goodbye on Logan's behalf until he remembers to say it. I bet
Olivia will understand.
Your sister's going through a rough time but I'd still tell her to chill.
He's three. Three is really young to expect generous sharing and perfect
social skills. Four is really young, too.
Deb Lewis
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sometimes small children don't like to say goodbye when they are
tired; I've
known several children like that. It may be worth trying to make your
visits
shorter, so you leave before he's getting sleepy.-=-
If the goal and purpose is for him to say good bye, maybe. But if the
goal and purpose is to have a good time, and sleep is healthy, then
staying until he's sleepy could be a Good thing! :-)
I always loved when little-guy Kirby would play and play and play and
then sleep in the car on the way home. Often he would be crying and
objecting when it was time to go, and I would carry him out while I
said "I think this means he had a really good time!" and when he woke
up from sleeping it off, he would tell me how much fun it was. And I
would pass some of the details back to the mom at the other house, the
good things he said, and that seemed to balance his seeming rudeness
at the end there.
And as he got older I would make suggestions of what he might say, and
he picked up some things from what I was saying for him.
Kirby (now 24) called me just a bit ago, and I talked to him while I
was on my way to take something to Holly (19). Being sweet to them
when they're little, and helping them understand the purpose of
courtesy, will pay off for you and for them, and for the relationship
between you later.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tired; I've
known several children like that. It may be worth trying to make your
visits
shorter, so you leave before he's getting sleepy.-=-
If the goal and purpose is for him to say good bye, maybe. But if the
goal and purpose is to have a good time, and sleep is healthy, then
staying until he's sleepy could be a Good thing! :-)
I always loved when little-guy Kirby would play and play and play and
then sleep in the car on the way home. Often he would be crying and
objecting when it was time to go, and I would carry him out while I
said "I think this means he had a really good time!" and when he woke
up from sleeping it off, he would tell me how much fun it was. And I
would pass some of the details back to the mom at the other house, the
good things he said, and that seemed to balance his seeming rudeness
at the end there.
And as he got older I would make suggestions of what he might say, and
he picked up some things from what I was saying for him.
Kirby (now 24) called me just a bit ago, and I talked to him while I
was on my way to take something to Holly (19). Being sweet to them
when they're little, and helping them understand the purpose of
courtesy, will pay off for you and for them, and for the relationship
between you later.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thecugals
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
--The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.--
My son went through a period of not wanting to say any of those things or even look at people at the end of a visit. It was because he was very upset, and it was taking all of his strength just to hold himself together. When people insisted on having him acknowledge them and the departure in some way, he would burst into tears. Once my husband and I understood this about our son, we explained it to others just before a departure and usually they had compassion for him and stopped trying to get him to behave in a certain way. Eventually it wasn't such a big deal for him to say "bye" and/or "thanks". Either he didn't feel as emotional, or he just wasn't so overcome by the emotions.
Beth
jodie aldridge
The discussion on saying hello and goodbye has prompted me to ask for some
advise of my own-please!
My 4.11 yo son is highly sensitive, It will take him a long time to feel
comfortable to talk to anyone new or that we only see in irregular brief
moments-(i.e a neighbour),or good friends when the situation is too much for
him- sometimes Grandparents too.
I am a single Mama and together we talk deeply about many things including this-
at times I have suggested he may like to say Hello or Goodbye- He explains to me
that he would like to speak to some people but finds it really hard. I can tell
just by looking at him in the situation and talking afterwards that this is so
true. Hence I have never pushed him to do so.( except perhaps at times when I
know for sure he is comfortable but just forgetting, and at his young age not so
used to the social cues I.e after an afternoon spent happily talking non-stop at
Grandads-Or just the two of us arriving to great nans who he will talk to
endlessly in which case after a gentle reminder of "would you like to say
hello/goodbye he is happy and very natural to do so)
I might add when we are at child orientated things, with other children he does
not know very well or at all or when the person is very kind and obviously
child-friendly, he is still sensitive and takes his time, but will within half
an hour or so can be confident to chat and play with them, with me and sometimes
without.
In the situations we come across, the problem for us is not my sons lack of
conversation ( i am sure for him things will gradually become easier- with
patience, love and time for him to fiond his way, but -what I can say to those
people, until he does, who give me and even HIM the unkind looks as if to say -
How rude he is- Is his mother not going to tell him to answer me- etc etc.
Especially my sister who we very very rarely see, don't get on with at all and
is one who strongly feels children MUST answer an adult when spoken to, In the
past she has been very rude to my little boy ( no wonder he never speaks to
her!) asking him "Hello is anybody in there" when he hasn't said hello back.
Without causing conflict at my parents this Christmas when we visit- (my sister
will be there)or anywhere else with anyone, I would like to come up with a
response to people who seem offended, appalled or who feel the need to bully my
young son when he does not feel comfortable to talk to them.
Any suggestions please?
Many thanks
Jodie
________________________________
From: thecugals <thecugals@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 6:33:18 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hello and Goodbye, and sharing
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
--The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is cv
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.--
My son went through a period of not wanting to say any of those things or even
look at people at the end of a visit. It was because he was very upset, and it
was taking all of his strength just to hold himself together. When people
insisted on having him acknowledge them and the departure in some way, he would
burst into tears. Once my husband and I understood this about our son, we
explained it to others just before a departure and usually they had compassion
for him and stopped trying to get him to behave in a certain way. Eventually it
wasn't such a big deal for him to say "bye" and/or "thanks". Either he didn't
feel as emotional, or he just wasn't so overcome by the emotions.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
My now 10 yro son, Justin, was a lot like that when he was younger. Sometimes he would tell me what to say and I would speak for him other times I would say things like Justin says goodbye or Justin says thank you. People looked at me funny every once in awhile, but left him alone.
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
--- On Mon, 11/22/10, jodie aldridge <jodiealdridge@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elisa
Hi Jodie my 8.5 yr old dd is like your son as well she has always had a problem meeting people and in saying hello and goodbye until she is comfortable, I was also the same when I was younger and I was made to speak to people even yelled at and smacked if I didn't so I don't push it with my dd I encourage her but let her know it's ok she will find her comfort zone soon and she generally does my family are finally realising it is better to leave her and let her come to them when she is ready but it has taken them along time to realise this. I do have to remind myself at times not to constantly say to kid's "say hello" as those words are imprinted in me and I do forget at times.
I think alot of people need to be more aware of sensitive people I personally have problems alot of the time in group situations because of the way I was always made to talk to people so I am hoping by changing the pattern with my dd she will grow up into a much more confident person in her own time naturally just by me gently encouraging her to take her time and interact when she is ready.
Elisa
I think alot of people need to be more aware of sensitive people I personally have problems alot of the time in group situations because of the way I was always made to talk to people so I am hoping by changing the pattern with my dd she will grow up into a much more confident person in her own time naturally just by me gently encouraging her to take her time and interact when she is ready.
Elisa
----- Original Message -----
From: jodie aldridge
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:14 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] talking to people
The discussion on saying hello and goodbye has prompted me to ask for some
advise of my own-please!
My 4.11 yo son is highly sensitive, It will take him a long time to feel
comfortable to talk to anyone new or that we only see in irregular brief
moments-(i.e a neighbour),or good friends when the situation is too much for
him- sometimes Grandparents too.
I am a single Mama and together we talk deeply about many things including this-
at times I have suggested he may like to say Hello or Goodbye- He explains to me
that he would like to speak to some people but finds it really hard. I can tell
just by looking at him in the situation and talking afterwards that this is so
true. Hence I have never pushed him to do so.( except perhaps at times when I
know for sure he is comfortable but just forgetting, and at his young age not so
used to the social cues I.e after an afternoon spent happily talking non-stop at
Grandads-Or just the two of us arriving to great nans who he will talk to
endlessly in which case after a gentle reminder of "would you like to say
hello/goodbye he is happy and very natural to do so)
I might add when we are at child orientated things, with other children he does
not know very well or at all or when the person is very kind and obviously
child-friendly, he is still sensitive and takes his time, but will within half
an hour or so can be confident to chat and play with them, with me and sometimes
without.
In the situations we come across, the problem for us is not my sons lack of
conversation ( i am sure for him things will gradually become easier- with
patience, love and time for him to fiond his way, but -what I can say to those
people, until he does, who give me and even HIM the unkind looks as if to say -
How rude he is- Is his mother not going to tell him to answer me- etc etc.
Especially my sister who we very very rarely see, don't get on with at all and
is one who strongly feels children MUST answer an adult when spoken to, In the
past she has been very rude to my little boy ( no wonder he never speaks to
her!) asking him "Hello is anybody in there" when he hasn't said hello back.
Without causing conflict at my parents this Christmas when we visit- (my sister
will be there)or anywhere else with anyone, I would like to come up with a
response to people who seem offended, appalled or who feel the need to bully my
young son when he does not feel comfortable to talk to them.
Any suggestions please?
Many thanks
Jodie
________________________________
From: thecugals <thecugals@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 6:33:18 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hello and Goodbye, and sharing
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
--The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is cv
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.--
My son went through a period of not wanting to say any of those things or even
look at people at the end of a visit. It was because he was very upset, and it
was taking all of his strength just to hold himself together. When people
insisted on having him acknowledge them and the departure in some way, he would
burst into tears. Once my husband and I understood this about our son, we
explained it to others just before a departure and usually they had compassion
for him and stopped trying to get him to behave in a certain way. Eventually it
wasn't such a big deal for him to say "bye" and/or "thanks". Either he didn't
feel as emotional, or he just wasn't so overcome by the emotions.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jodie aldridge
Thankyou, That has helped, we can talk about me saying his hellos and goodbyes
when I know he`s not comfy with it.
I have always felt strongly that I don`t want to say something on his behalf if
he dosn`t mean it, or make something up.
And by asking aloud if he would like me to answer and how -it may help people to
understand us rather than frown at us and be rude.
I am cofident myself so dont mind funny looks coming my way- just want to
protect my boy from them.
Thankyou
Jodie
________________________________
From: C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 8:38:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] talking to people
My now 10 yro son, Justin, was a lot like that when he was younger. Sometimes he
would tell me what to say and I would speak for him other times I would say
things like Justin says goodbye or Justin says thank you. People looked at me
funny every once in awhile, but left him alone.
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given."
Gandalf
when I know he`s not comfy with it.
I have always felt strongly that I don`t want to say something on his behalf if
he dosn`t mean it, or make something up.
And by asking aloud if he would like me to answer and how -it may help people to
understand us rather than frown at us and be rude.
I am cofident myself so dont mind funny looks coming my way- just want to
protect my boy from them.
Thankyou
Jodie
________________________________
From: C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 8:38:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] talking to people
My now 10 yro son, Justin, was a lot like that when he was younger. Sometimes he
would tell me what to say and I would speak for him other times I would say
things like Justin says goodbye or Justin says thank you. People looked at me
funny every once in awhile, but left him alone.
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given."
Gandalf
--- On Mon, 11/22/10, jodie aldridge <jodiealdridge@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jodie aldridge
When i say I dont want say something on his behalf if he dosn`t mean it, I mean
if it`s not what he has chosen to say.
________________________________
From: C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 8:38:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] talking to people
My now 10 yro son, Justin, was a lot like that when he was younger. Sometimes he
would tell me what to say and I would speak for him other times I would say
things like Justin says goodbye or Justin says thank you. People looked at me
funny every once in awhile, but left him alone.
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given."
Gandalf
if it`s not what he has chosen to say.
________________________________
From: C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 8:38:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] talking to people
My now 10 yro son, Justin, was a lot like that when he was younger. Sometimes he
would tell me what to say and I would speak for him other times I would say
things like Justin says goodbye or Justin says thank you. People looked at me
funny every once in awhile, but left him alone.
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given."
Gandalf
--- On Mon, 11/22/10, jodie aldridge <jodiealdridge@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***When i say I dont want say something on his behalf if he dosn`t mean it, I
mean
if it`s not what he has chosen to say.***
If he has chosen to say nothing and there is an awkward pause and silence that
warrants someone to say something, then you can say what you feel is best to
say. In a sense, he's given up his choice of words by NOT saying them. If he'd
like to be heard and you say something on his behalf that he didn't want said,
then he should speak up. Until he's ready to voice his words, then he'll need
to accept what others say on his behalf.
My oldest daughter did that for years. I'd turn to her and say what I think
she'd like me to say and add "is that right?" and then she could nod or shake
her head to confirm or deny what I've said on her behalf. Mostly I got it right
because I know my daughter really well. Eventually she started talking to
people. It started happening when she was around the age of 7/8. Up until that
point she wouldn't say a word to any stranger ever, even if she'd met them a few
times or knew them by being familiar with them, like neighbors or the grocery
clerk that is always there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mean
if it`s not what he has chosen to say.***
If he has chosen to say nothing and there is an awkward pause and silence that
warrants someone to say something, then you can say what you feel is best to
say. In a sense, he's given up his choice of words by NOT saying them. If he'd
like to be heard and you say something on his behalf that he didn't want said,
then he should speak up. Until he's ready to voice his words, then he'll need
to accept what others say on his behalf.
My oldest daughter did that for years. I'd turn to her and say what I think
she'd like me to say and add "is that right?" and then she could nod or shake
her head to confirm or deny what I've said on her behalf. Mostly I got it right
because I know my daughter really well. Eventually she started talking to
people. It started happening when she was around the age of 7/8. Up until that
point she wouldn't say a word to any stranger ever, even if she'd met them a few
times or knew them by being familiar with them, like neighbors or the grocery
clerk that is always there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nycartgal2003
** A child can say something or wave, or smile, or
SOMEthing, without being forced to "say goodbye." The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.
When my kids were little and first started going to birthday parties
or play dates where I might not be, I said it was nice, when they
left, to say something like "thanks for inviting me." And because I
told them why, and suggested some words, they jumped on it and did it
and still do such things.**
Sandra,
This is very helpful for me.
We do model polite behavior for Logan.
When we've explained that
saying hello/goodbye or something like it is a nice thing to do, and makes others
happy, sometimes he does not want to do it. He has growled at some people, family even, when they try to talk with him. I know it can be very off-putting, and then there are times where he'll chat it up with a complete stranger on the subway. When I've asked him about both of these things, he might say, "Because I was/wasn't in the mood to talk to them.", or "I liked/didn't like her voice".
We will just keep at it in a loving way. I have noticed him opening up more as he gets older.
As for the question about my sister, yes she can be controlling, and mean, but that is not the reason we were estranged...this time. It had to do with childhood hurts, and her wanting time to work through them. She was really as loving as she could be in her delivery, this was new for her, so I was more open to the conversation.
Of course she has a part in the end of her marriage, but her husband is an abusive drinker, that's the main reason.
I'm supposed to bewith my sister and mom on Thanksgiving without my husband, who has to work. I want to have this time with my family, and yet part of me wants to avoid all the stuff that might come up, and just stay home.
And, I will discuss with Logan that if he wants to bring toys, they need to be something that he is willing to share with his cousin.
Meryl
I think the expectations should meet in the middle, the sister wanting
SOMEthing, without being forced to "say goodbye." The principle of
acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
It doesn't make sense to me.
When my kids were little and first started going to birthday parties
or play dates where I might not be, I said it was nice, when they
left, to say something like "thanks for inviting me." And because I
told them why, and suggested some words, they jumped on it and did it
and still do such things.**
Sandra,
This is very helpful for me.
We do model polite behavior for Logan.
When we've explained that
saying hello/goodbye or something like it is a nice thing to do, and makes others
happy, sometimes he does not want to do it. He has growled at some people, family even, when they try to talk with him. I know it can be very off-putting, and then there are times where he'll chat it up with a complete stranger on the subway. When I've asked him about both of these things, he might say, "Because I was/wasn't in the mood to talk to them.", or "I liked/didn't like her voice".
We will just keep at it in a loving way. I have noticed him opening up more as he gets older.
As for the question about my sister, yes she can be controlling, and mean, but that is not the reason we were estranged...this time. It had to do with childhood hurts, and her wanting time to work through them. She was really as loving as she could be in her delivery, this was new for her, so I was more open to the conversation.
Of course she has a part in the end of her marriage, but her husband is an abusive drinker, that's the main reason.
I'm supposed to bewith my sister and mom on Thanksgiving without my husband, who has to work. I want to have this time with my family, and yet part of me wants to avoid all the stuff that might come up, and just stay home.
And, I will discuss with Logan that if he wants to bring toys, they need to be something that he is willing to share with his cousin.
Meryl
I think the expectations should meet in the middle, the sister wanting
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-We were at a family gathering last week:
>
> Part I
> Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with
> him.
> He said no.-=-
>
> I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
> willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
> journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
> always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
> people.
>
> -=-my sister and her husband are going through an ugly break-up,-=-
>
> Your estrangement from your sister, and her breakup with her
> husband... Do they have to do with her being too critical and
> controlling? Because if so, it might be a kindness to her to mention
> that, if you can do so in a nice way. Maybe your sister needs to
> practice getting along with other people, and work on being more
> accepting of people's differences.
>
> That said, though, I think it's good to coach kids on courtesies.
>
> -=-The last bit I got from Alison is that she is really worried that
> Logan will not have friends because he isn't polite or respectful.-=-
>
> It's a reasonable concern, but was she "really worried" or was she
> trying to manipulate you into doing things her way?
>
> I do think some unschooled kids could use better manners, and that
> some unschooling parents go too far toward "whatever" and some nearly
> seem to encourage their children to do the opposite of what the
> parents were "made to do." In our own family, that was never a
> consideration at all. Someone recently said to me, about a gift I had
> bought for Holly, that it was like what a lot of girls were wearing,
> and then said oh, but you're unschoolers so you probably want her to
> wear something that's not like what the other girls wear. I
> understood the comment in context, but it was awkward, and NOT the way
> I think, or Holly thinks. Different for the sake of being different
> isn't any requirement of unschooling.
>
> The opposite of "do everything that's expected" might be "do NOTHING
> that's expected."
> We shouldn't be living by rules, nor by an opposite version of the
> rules. That's reactionary.
> Replacing rules with new rules isn't living by principles. There are
> expectations of visitors and hosts. Pretending there aren't is a
> disservice. A child can say something or wave, or smile, or
> SOMEthing, without being forced to "say goodbye." The principle of
> acknowledging another person (saying hi, or introducing oneself) and
> of some sort of "had a nice time" or "glad to see you" at the end is
> not a big deal. If the parents model it and make suggestions to the
> child of things he might say, whey might a child NOT want to do that?
> It doesn't make sense to me.
>
> When my kids were little and first started going to birthday parties
> or play dates where I might not be, I said it was nice, when they
> left, to say something like "thanks for inviting me." And because I
> told them why, and suggested some words, they jumped on it and did it
> and still do such things.
>
> I think the expectations should meet in the middle, the sister wanting
> "all" and the other sister being willing to defend "none."
>
> http://sandradodd.com/balance
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
shirarocklin
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Thanks,
Shira
>If it isn't something of your own. If you went to an indoor play-place, or someone else's house, or playing with communal sand-toys at the park (and forgot to bring your own that time? I've found that there has to be a balance between what I would want to do ideally, and what other parents and children expect from all children who interact with their children. I feel like, in order to maintain relationships, or ability to use certain services, I find myself explaining reasons for taking turns and sharing, and consequences to relationships of not sharing, or being asked to leave the play-place. Sometimes, those things don't work, and my 4.5 year old still doesn't want to share something, and neither child will be drawn away to other toys or distractions, and it seems to me like a huge tantrum or fight over the toy is not realistic in that place with those people, and I do say, "Temima, each child is going to have a turn," and I often turns on a timer or something to mark time and give each child turns. She seems to accept that best. It doesn't happen so often, or I would limit those kinds of outings if possible. It doesn't seem fair to me to make the other child not have access to a certain toy at all because I don't enforce sharing, if the situation develops where the two really only want that one toy at the same time. Does this sound like a good way of dealing with these kinds of situations?
> -=-We were at a family gathering last week:
>
> Part I
> Logan had his Mr. Potato Head, and Olivia wanted to play with it with
> him.
> He said no.-=-
>
> I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
> willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
> journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
> always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
> people.
Thanks,
Shira
Sandra Dodd
-=-I feel like, in order to maintain relationships, or ability to use
certain services, I find myself explaining reasons for taking turns
and sharing, and consequences to relationships of not sharing, or
being asked to leave the play-place. -=-
Those things are real, though.
Becoming unschoolers doesn't change our access or rights to public or
shared materials or places or toys.
-= It doesn't seem fair to me to make the other child not have access
to a certain toy at all because I don't enforce sharing, if the
situation develops where the two really only want that one toy at the
same time. Does this sound like a good way of dealing with these kinds
of situations? -=-
I think so.
If a mother decides her child doesn't have to share a toy, it's the
same as the child deciding. But it's worse in a public place, because
if sharing is expected [or required by law, perhaps... :-) ] the
mother doesn't have the right to make decisions about those resources
based on her own philosophy or what she considers to be ideal.
In her own yard with her own swing, sure. Public playground, public
swing, the city ultimately decides. The swing belongs to them (or the
housing complex, or somebody). In the absence of the owner coming and
throwing one family out, though, they probably assume people will be
courteous and share.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
certain services, I find myself explaining reasons for taking turns
and sharing, and consequences to relationships of not sharing, or
being asked to leave the play-place. -=-
Those things are real, though.
Becoming unschoolers doesn't change our access or rights to public or
shared materials or places or toys.
-= It doesn't seem fair to me to make the other child not have access
to a certain toy at all because I don't enforce sharing, if the
situation develops where the two really only want that one toy at the
same time. Does this sound like a good way of dealing with these kinds
of situations? -=-
I think so.
If a mother decides her child doesn't have to share a toy, it's the
same as the child deciding. But it's worse in a public place, because
if sharing is expected [or required by law, perhaps... :-) ] the
mother doesn't have the right to make decisions about those resources
based on her own philosophy or what she considers to be ideal.
In her own yard with her own swing, sure. Public playground, public
swing, the city ultimately decides. The swing belongs to them (or the
housing complex, or somebody). In the absence of the owner coming and
throwing one family out, though, they probably assume people will be
courteous and share.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tamara
Hi Meryl,
I've been thinking through some of these issues myself so have been following your thread with interest.
I come from a tight-knit Caribbean family where extended family tends to be very involved in parenting in what I would call a 'parenting partnership'. It makes me wonder if you could apply some of the principles of 'spousal partnerships' to your relationship with your sister? http://sandradodd.com/spouses
All the best,
Tamara
I've been thinking through some of these issues myself so have been following your thread with interest.
I come from a tight-knit Caribbean family where extended family tends to be very involved in parenting in what I would call a 'parenting partnership'. It makes me wonder if you could apply some of the principles of 'spousal partnerships' to your relationship with your sister? http://sandradodd.com/spouses
All the best,
Tamara
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Shira wrote:
<<I feel like, in order to maintain relationships, or ability to use certain
services, I find myself explaining reasons for taking turns and sharing, and
consequences to relationships of not sharing, or being asked to leave the
play-place.>>
Sandra wrote:
<<<Becoming unschoolers doesn't change our access or rights to public or
shared materials or places or toys.>>>
I think though that forcing children to share personal possessions, like
backpacks is wrong. I compare it to asking adults to do this. I have on
occasion really confused a well-meaning mom forcing her crying child to hand
over a backpack to be examined by others and to have her personal
possessions scattered. The mom is usually pontificating on sharing but
looks just horrified when I ask if this extends to me rooting around her
handbag. However were I to go through her handbag, use her cellphone or try
on her makeup she would probably not see the "value" of sharing. If I did
so without permission, especially. Children do have personal possessions
and they get to choose what happens to them. I have seen moms lend their
child's sweater to another without asking, too. Adults do not respect
children's bodies or possessions for the most part. This often gets
obfuscated in the great sharing debate. We certainly expect a generosity
from children that we aren't willing to demand from adults:)
There has to be a balance. My kids have had toys stolen, and broken. That
is very hard. So, if the trike is in the park as a toy for all that is one
thing to be shared, but if a child brings his/her trike they should decide
who they will share it with.
Rowan had a tricycle stolen as a two and a half year old. It was outside a
park bathroom. We looked everywhere, and he wondered if the kids who had
used it earlier took it, thinking it abandoned.
Many of the mothers had been so happy that he "shared", and wanted the
secret. I never gave it much thought that kids don't have the luxury of
their own belongings. Rowan had no problem lending the trike out and many
kids had used it. For the most part I had modelled sharing inadvertently by
sharing with him and his dad. However, I have to confess I don't give my
carkeys to strangers;-)
Marina
--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<I feel like, in order to maintain relationships, or ability to use certain
services, I find myself explaining reasons for taking turns and sharing, and
consequences to relationships of not sharing, or being asked to leave the
play-place.>>
Sandra wrote:
<<<Becoming unschoolers doesn't change our access or rights to public or
shared materials or places or toys.>>>
I think though that forcing children to share personal possessions, like
backpacks is wrong. I compare it to asking adults to do this. I have on
occasion really confused a well-meaning mom forcing her crying child to hand
over a backpack to be examined by others and to have her personal
possessions scattered. The mom is usually pontificating on sharing but
looks just horrified when I ask if this extends to me rooting around her
handbag. However were I to go through her handbag, use her cellphone or try
on her makeup she would probably not see the "value" of sharing. If I did
so without permission, especially. Children do have personal possessions
and they get to choose what happens to them. I have seen moms lend their
child's sweater to another without asking, too. Adults do not respect
children's bodies or possessions for the most part. This often gets
obfuscated in the great sharing debate. We certainly expect a generosity
from children that we aren't willing to demand from adults:)
There has to be a balance. My kids have had toys stolen, and broken. That
is very hard. So, if the trike is in the park as a toy for all that is one
thing to be shared, but if a child brings his/her trike they should decide
who they will share it with.
Rowan had a tricycle stolen as a two and a half year old. It was outside a
park bathroom. We looked everywhere, and he wondered if the kids who had
used it earlier took it, thinking it abandoned.
Many of the mothers had been so happy that he "shared", and wanted the
secret. I never gave it much thought that kids don't have the luxury of
their own belongings. Rowan had no problem lending the trike out and many
kids had used it. For the most part I had modelled sharing inadvertently by
sharing with him and his dad. However, I have to confess I don't give my
carkeys to strangers;-)
Marina
--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"nycartgal2003" <mranzer@...> wrote:
Getting ready to go, looking for shoes and getting arms into coats can be a good time to check in and possibly mention why goodbye is a nice thing to do. Hellos - a reminder just before getting out of the car (or when you hear someone elses car pull up) can help, too.
Keeping toys he doesn't want to share in the car can work, too. I don't know the temperature where you live, but something I used to do with Mo was to set up the car as a place where she could go and have a break if she needed to get away from other people for awhile. That made it easier to visit longer - she could go chill out for ten minutes (or whatever) and then be ready to play again. I'd also make sure to offer to play with the other child while she was having her break both as a way to reassure the other child and to "run interferrence" and make sure Mo really did get her little bit of solitude.
---Meredith
>> When we've explained thatI've found those kinds of conversations more helpful "outside" the moment - in the moment it can come across as pressure to perform and that's often not helpful for a child who would rather everyone would back off and look away.
> saying hello/goodbye or something like it is a nice thing to do, and makes others
> happy, sometimes he does not want to do it.
Getting ready to go, looking for shoes and getting arms into coats can be a good time to check in and possibly mention why goodbye is a nice thing to do. Hellos - a reminder just before getting out of the car (or when you hear someone elses car pull up) can help, too.
> And, I will discuss with Logan that if he wants to bring toys, they need to be something that he is willing to share with his cousin.******************
Keeping toys he doesn't want to share in the car can work, too. I don't know the temperature where you live, but something I used to do with Mo was to set up the car as a place where she could go and have a break if she needed to get away from other people for awhile. That made it easier to visit longer - she could go chill out for ten minutes (or whatever) and then be ready to play again. I'd also make sure to offer to play with the other child while she was having her break both as a way to reassure the other child and to "run interferrence" and make sure Mo really did get her little bit of solitude.
---Meredith
lylaw
***I didn't let my kids take things out of the house that they weren't
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.***
I don’t share my phone, or my ipod, or my laptop, much, and when I do, it’s by my choice. and not wanting to share it doesn’t prevent me from taking those things places where other people might be...also, a gameboy or other “special” thing is sometimes a confidence builder/security item for a child who is shy or anxious with others, and forcing them to foray into social situations without that item can be really really challenging. if it was fine with your kids, then that’s great, but I’d be really cautious about recommending that to everyone...it’s a good idea to help kids understand the kinds of things that might need to be shared, or that will be really challenging not to share, but I would not classify a gameboy or personal item in that category...
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
willing to share. If they had something like a gameboy, for the
journey, we locked it in the car safely, for the way home. We would
always choose things that could be shared, when going to be with other
people.***
I don’t share my phone, or my ipod, or my laptop, much, and when I do, it’s by my choice. and not wanting to share it doesn’t prevent me from taking those things places where other people might be...also, a gameboy or other “special” thing is sometimes a confidence builder/security item for a child who is shy or anxious with others, and forcing them to foray into social situations without that item can be really really challenging. if it was fine with your kids, then that’s great, but I’d be really cautious about recommending that to everyone...it’s a good idea to help kids understand the kinds of things that might need to be shared, or that will be really challenging not to share, but I would not classify a gameboy or personal item in that category...
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
To some extent, that's going to depend on the *other* people. There are situations where I'll advise against Mo bringing a portable electronic game in particular because it will bring her *more* attention rather than providing her with a buffer, like to homes where video games are strictly regulated. Now admittedly, we don't go to homes like that very often, but visiting extended family with younger children, or some of our school-at-home friends are times I'd think twice about something like the gameboy and recommend Mo keep it in some kind of "safe space" - locked in the car or room, out of sight of the other kids.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
>itâs a good idea to help kids understand the kinds of things that might need to be shared, or that will be really challenging not to share, but I would not classify a gameboy or personal item in that category...****************
To some extent, that's going to depend on the *other* people. There are situations where I'll advise against Mo bringing a portable electronic game in particular because it will bring her *more* attention rather than providing her with a buffer, like to homes where video games are strictly regulated. Now admittedly, we don't go to homes like that very often, but visiting extended family with younger children, or some of our school-at-home friends are times I'd think twice about something like the gameboy and recommend Mo keep it in some kind of "safe space" - locked in the car or room, out of sight of the other kids.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
lylaw
yes, good points meredith. very true. but that’s still not really about sharing, and more about family rules, etc...
lyla
From: plaidpanties666
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hello and Goodbye, and sharing
"lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
To some extent, that's going to depend on the *other* people. There are situations where I'll advise against Mo bringing a portable electronic game in particular because it will bring her *more* attention rather than providing her with a buffer, like to homes where video games are strictly regulated. Now admittedly, we don't go to homes like that very often, but visiting extended family with younger children, or some of our school-at-home friends are times I'd think twice about something like the gameboy and recommend Mo keep it in some kind of "safe space" - locked in the car or room, out of sight of the other kids.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyla
From: plaidpanties666
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hello and Goodbye, and sharing
"lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>itâs a good idea to help kids understand the kinds of things that might need to be shared, or that will be really challenging not to share, but I would not classify a gameboy or personal item in that category...****************
To some extent, that's going to depend on the *other* people. There are situations where I'll advise against Mo bringing a portable electronic game in particular because it will bring her *more* attention rather than providing her with a buffer, like to homes where video games are strictly regulated. Now admittedly, we don't go to homes like that very often, but visiting extended family with younger children, or some of our school-at-home friends are times I'd think twice about something like the gameboy and recommend Mo keep it in some kind of "safe space" - locked in the car or room, out of sight of the other kids.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don�t share my phone, or my ipod, or my laptop, much, and when I do, it�s by my choice. and not wanting to share it doesn�t prevent me from taking those things places where other people might be...also, a gameboy or other �special� thing is sometimes a confidence builder/security item for a child who is shy or anxious with others, and forcing them to foray into social situations without that item can be really really challenging.-=-
If you had an iPod the first month they came out (and they're still not out in India, I discovered recently) and you chose to take it out where other adults were who were very curious about it and hadn't seen one and wanted to just hold it to see how heavy it was, or maybe turn it to see how the image uprights itself, and you said NO, it's mine, I don't have to share it, it probably would have been better for you just not to bring it out to the gathering at all. If you were being forced by someone else to foray into that social situation, perhaps that other person should have foreseen that if you weren't able to go out without your iPod, it might be too soon to go out. Or maybe they could have found some way to encourage you to share it for a while and then put it away. Or to feel better about not taking it at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you had an iPod the first month they came out (and they're still not out in India, I discovered recently) and you chose to take it out where other adults were who were very curious about it and hadn't seen one and wanted to just hold it to see how heavy it was, or maybe turn it to see how the image uprights itself, and you said NO, it's mine, I don't have to share it, it probably would have been better for you just not to bring it out to the gathering at all. If you were being forced by someone else to foray into that social situation, perhaps that other person should have foreseen that if you weren't able to go out without your iPod, it might be too soon to go out. Or maybe they could have found some way to encourage you to share it for a while and then put it away. Or to feel better about not taking it at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-yes, good points meredith. very true. but thatâ•˙s still not really about sharing, and more about family rules, etc...-=-
Situations are different. In the real wold there isn't anything that is simply "really about sharing." It's about living mindfully within the situations the real world presents us.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Situations are different. In the real wold there isn't anything that is simply "really about sharing." It's about living mindfully within the situations the real world presents us.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]