Kid-Bashing
melissamariemichael
I was recently at a La Leche League (breastfeeding support) meeting with several moms and children ranging in age from newborn to 7 years old. One mom expressed some frustration at not being able to understand what her not-yet-talking two year old wanted. Another mom quickly jumped in with "Oh, definitely! I would take a newborn over a toddler any day!" And someone else said, "I would take a MILLION newborns over a toddler!" And then others with "Well, I would take a toddler over a 4 year old!" And so on about how children keep getting more horrible as they get older.
I was shocked! So I said, "I like toddlers. My daughter was 2 when my son was born, and she was so sweet to him." The mom next to me scoffed and said "Sweet!?! I would NEVER use that word to describe my daughter! I would use words like 'hellion' or 'monster'!" Everyone seemed to think it was funny but I was horrified. I couldn't imagine saying that about another person, especially my own children. There were a few moms of newborns there that were just kind of stunned and I felt bad that everyone was sending them a message that it was just going to get worse from there. So many of the moms were enjoying the kid-bashing that my comments about how kids are great seemed to be drowned out.
It seems something positive did come out of this though, because later at home I talked to my husband about it. He has a habit of saying negative things about our children when he is angry, like that they are 'babies' or 'stupid' or 'bad' or 'naughty.' We didn't really talk about him or how he says those things - just about the La Leche League moms and how many of the kids were in the room and could hear what their parents were saying. The cool thing is that I have noticed that since our conversation about how badly I felt to hear others talk about kids in such a negative way, he is really trying to change the way he talks about our kids when he is frustrated with them. And I didn't nag or lecture him about it, but that he realized he didn't like how he sounded and decided to try to be better.
~Melissa
I was shocked! So I said, "I like toddlers. My daughter was 2 when my son was born, and she was so sweet to him." The mom next to me scoffed and said "Sweet!?! I would NEVER use that word to describe my daughter! I would use words like 'hellion' or 'monster'!" Everyone seemed to think it was funny but I was horrified. I couldn't imagine saying that about another person, especially my own children. There were a few moms of newborns there that were just kind of stunned and I felt bad that everyone was sending them a message that it was just going to get worse from there. So many of the moms were enjoying the kid-bashing that my comments about how kids are great seemed to be drowned out.
It seems something positive did come out of this though, because later at home I talked to my husband about it. He has a habit of saying negative things about our children when he is angry, like that they are 'babies' or 'stupid' or 'bad' or 'naughty.' We didn't really talk about him or how he says those things - just about the La Leche League moms and how many of the kids were in the room and could hear what their parents were saying. The cool thing is that I have noticed that since our conversation about how badly I felt to hear others talk about kids in such a negative way, he is really trying to change the way he talks about our kids when he is frustrated with them. And I didn't nag or lecture him about it, but that he realized he didn't like how he sounded and decided to try to be better.
~Melissa
Lisa E Biesemeyer
Melissa wrote: "Everyone seemed to think it was funny but I was horrified. I
couldn't imagine saying that about another person, especially my own children.
There were a few moms of newborns there that were just kind of stunned and I
felt bad that everyone was sending them a message that it was just going to get
worse from there. So many of the moms were enjoying the kid-bashing that my
comments about how kids are great seemed to be drowned out."
I run up against this quite often myself, even among mamas (and dads) who seem
to be advocates of empathic parenting practices (LLL, AP, etc). There seems to
be a deeply ingrained belief that children are innately "out to get us",
"terrible", "little monsters", etc., which then seems to make acceptable the
sort of down-talking, kid-bashing you experienced. To say that it makes me very
sad and confused is an understatement.
I have twin boys (who will turn 1 this Thursday) and a 4.5yo daughter. When
people see us, very often the first response is, "Wow" or a look of amazement.
After that, though, the negative, mama-martyring, child-bashing comments
disguised as support begin: "My, my...you have your hands full", "ooh, double
trouble, huh?", "two boys, watch out!", "oh, big sister. I bet *she's* a big
help, huh. hehehehe", "wow, super mom; you make my situation look easy", "and I
thought my life was hard", etc. etc.
It gets so painfully old to hear these comments, but I also feel so irritated
and sad for children in general as well as the poor parents who literally feel
so frustrated by their lives and blame that on their children. I aim to be
compassionate, understanding that these comments have more to do with the people
saying them than with my children or me, but I also aim to convey the happiness
and heart-bursting love that I genuinely feel for my children, my family and
myself. So, like you, I focus on positive comments in return: "yes, I am quite
a lucky mama", "she is a big help to me", "they are delightful", "we have been
blessed", etc etc. Usually, these statments shut the comments down rather than
encourage a more open, honest, positive conversation about being a parent as I
would some times like to have.
So, even when I am having a challenging day, I really work on appearing content
if not happy, smiling and looking people in the eyes, kissing my children often,
speaking to them, involving them in the work we are doing, etc. At the very
least I feel that being a beacon of positivity will give my children and I a
true sense of well being; if beyond that a few parents or non-parents feel
good/better/more positive about children and parenting as result of seeing my
family or speaking with me briefly about twins or children in general, then
great!
BTW, having two baby/almost toddler boys is amazing and amazingly exhausting.
Add to that a very spirited 4 year old girl and what an awesome experience I get
to have! I think I may have written that the boys were almost 1yo and next to
that the word YIKES! I would like to clarify that I am shocked that they are
already a year old as it seems like they were just born... thus the YIKES! Time
certainly goes by quickly when one is having a good time ;)
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
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couldn't imagine saying that about another person, especially my own children.
There were a few moms of newborns there that were just kind of stunned and I
felt bad that everyone was sending them a message that it was just going to get
worse from there. So many of the moms were enjoying the kid-bashing that my
comments about how kids are great seemed to be drowned out."
I run up against this quite often myself, even among mamas (and dads) who seem
to be advocates of empathic parenting practices (LLL, AP, etc). There seems to
be a deeply ingrained belief that children are innately "out to get us",
"terrible", "little monsters", etc., which then seems to make acceptable the
sort of down-talking, kid-bashing you experienced. To say that it makes me very
sad and confused is an understatement.
I have twin boys (who will turn 1 this Thursday) and a 4.5yo daughter. When
people see us, very often the first response is, "Wow" or a look of amazement.
After that, though, the negative, mama-martyring, child-bashing comments
disguised as support begin: "My, my...you have your hands full", "ooh, double
trouble, huh?", "two boys, watch out!", "oh, big sister. I bet *she's* a big
help, huh. hehehehe", "wow, super mom; you make my situation look easy", "and I
thought my life was hard", etc. etc.
It gets so painfully old to hear these comments, but I also feel so irritated
and sad for children in general as well as the poor parents who literally feel
so frustrated by their lives and blame that on their children. I aim to be
compassionate, understanding that these comments have more to do with the people
saying them than with my children or me, but I also aim to convey the happiness
and heart-bursting love that I genuinely feel for my children, my family and
myself. So, like you, I focus on positive comments in return: "yes, I am quite
a lucky mama", "she is a big help to me", "they are delightful", "we have been
blessed", etc etc. Usually, these statments shut the comments down rather than
encourage a more open, honest, positive conversation about being a parent as I
would some times like to have.
So, even when I am having a challenging day, I really work on appearing content
if not happy, smiling and looking people in the eyes, kissing my children often,
speaking to them, involving them in the work we are doing, etc. At the very
least I feel that being a beacon of positivity will give my children and I a
true sense of well being; if beyond that a few parents or non-parents feel
good/better/more positive about children and parenting as result of seeing my
family or speaking with me briefly about twins or children in general, then
great!
BTW, having two baby/almost toddler boys is amazing and amazingly exhausting.
Add to that a very spirited 4 year old girl and what an awesome experience I get
to have! I think I may have written that the boys were almost 1yo and next to
that the word YIKES! I would like to clarify that I am shocked that they are
already a year old as it seems like they were just born... thus the YIKES! Time
certainly goes by quickly when one is having a good time ;)
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
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plaidpanties666
Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>> BTW, having two baby/almost toddler boys is amazing and amazingly exhausting.This is exactly what I love about radical unschooling discussions - the idea that its not just "okay" to love being a parent but worthwhile to reframe parenting challenges into things we "get" to do and to have. Embracing and enjoying our relationship with our kids whole heartedly doesn't diminish us as thoughtful people or people with needs and interests of our own, its a chance to make our own lives bigger and more wonderful.
> Add to that a very spirited 4 year old girl and what an awesome experience I get
> to have!
---Meredith
C C
I have just come out of hospital for 4 days after an emergency op and I had to leave my 6 month old(who is breastfed) and myother kids at home with daddy. I was devastated but you would not believe how many nurses and other patients made comments about how I must be 'enjoying the break' and that I should stay in as long as possible. I found it so emotional and heartbreaking to be away from them all, especially the baby, and this 'joke' just got more and more upsetting to me. In the end I just kept saying 'actually I can't WAIT to get back to them all, I hate being separated'. They just looked at me like I was mad.
I don't get it.
K.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't get it.
K.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
There is nothing to get, perhaps:) It seems really easy to pick on the
disenfranchised, because they can't fight back. Kids are the biggest
disenfranchised group who depend on adults for their survival and often
cannot tell us exactly what they want/need only what they do not want or
need and hope we can help them. They are needy and dependent, and we are
obligated to respond to facilitate their very survival as well as their
future growth/prosperity/happiness.
I suppose it is like racism or sexism--where one torments and disempowers
members of a group as individuals, just because they are members of that
group and then uses their desempowerment to belittle the group as a whole.
Its not quite the same, as the disempowered group individuals(kids) are
sometimes loved well by individuals(parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
friends) within the group with life/death power over them. Although perhaps
slaver owners, and husbands who beat their wives also claimed to be
"protecting" and loving the disempowered person in their dyad, too.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
disenfranchised, because they can't fight back. Kids are the biggest
disenfranchised group who depend on adults for their survival and often
cannot tell us exactly what they want/need only what they do not want or
need and hope we can help them. They are needy and dependent, and we are
obligated to respond to facilitate their very survival as well as their
future growth/prosperity/happiness.
I suppose it is like racism or sexism--where one torments and disempowers
members of a group as individuals, just because they are members of that
group and then uses their desempowerment to belittle the group as a whole.
Its not quite the same, as the disempowered group individuals(kids) are
sometimes loved well by individuals(parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
friends) within the group with life/death power over them. Although perhaps
slaver owners, and husbands who beat their wives also claimed to be
"protecting" and loving the disempowered person in their dyad, too.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
But too, I think we need to give parents space to need some time alone without making them feel like they, therefore, don't love and appreciate their children. Parenting can be really hard, depending on your kid, and takes a huge amount of energy. And different people have different needs. I know that *I* am a way more present available mother if I get some time alone to recharge (or time alone with my husband or my best friend).
That said, i do agree that it's an awful way to talk about someone you love, *especially* in front of them! Kind of like when I was pregnant and people asked me, in front of my three boys, if I was hoping for a girl *finally*. : (
Michelle
Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (8 1/2), Eli (6), and Oliver (16 mo)
If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher
>From: Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...>I think that way our culture sets up parenting to be adversarial (needing "control", "who's in charge?" that kind of thinking) does end up making a culture that takes it as an assumption that people don't want to be with their kids if they don't have to. (And it makes a culture that makes families you *do* need a break from!) That *is* a sadness and a great poverty of spirit, imo.
>There is nothing to get, perhaps:) It seems really easy to pick on the
>disenfranchised, because they can't fight back.
But too, I think we need to give parents space to need some time alone without making them feel like they, therefore, don't love and appreciate their children. Parenting can be really hard, depending on your kid, and takes a huge amount of energy. And different people have different needs. I know that *I* am a way more present available mother if I get some time alone to recharge (or time alone with my husband or my best friend).
That said, i do agree that it's an awful way to talk about someone you love, *especially* in front of them! Kind of like when I was pregnant and people asked me, in front of my three boys, if I was hoping for a girl *finally*. : (
Michelle
Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (8 1/2), Eli (6), and Oliver (16 mo)
If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher
Marina DeLuca-Howard
.
change. Have you ever seen a hungry kid, whose mom is getting one more
errand done before she feeds him. He is whining and she's on a mission to
pick up the drycleaner, the wine for a dinner party, and some boots at the
repair shop. Then if in the meltdown at the Food Court the inevitable
meltdown comes the mother will actually make the kid wait longer.
I once got into a conflict with a mother whose hungry child was "too whiny"
so she was going to punish her by letting the person behind them order next.
The line up was long and the girl (about four) kept asking if it was finally
their turn, she was saying how hungry she was, that her tummy hurt and
reciting all the things she wanted to order, as she bounced around on the
spot. Her mother was intent on managing her behavior. I would have been
rummaging through my purse looking for anything edible, card in hand anxious
for our turn. The girl burst into sobbing into protest as the adult male
went next on her turn, which meant the mother let another person go in their
stead.
The hungry kid's display was managed, rather than her hunger satiated. Only
until she could be silent and order politely (p's and q's) was her mother
satisfied. She glared at the people gaping, and of course there were more
people approving. A couple of us exchanged glances and I protested by
saying I have three kids much older and honestly hunger is a problem in need
of solving and expecting kids behaviour to be "restraint" when they are
really really hungry is unrealistic. I stopped talking when I realized the
mother was prepared to take her hungry sobbing baby to the back of the line.
People "manage" children's behaviour rather than stop to discover the
source, or even ignore the source in favor of some "lesson" or respect they
deem more important than the child's physical need.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>acknowledging or validating their needs. We never assume adults need to
> >>I think that way our culture sets up parenting to be adversarial (needing
> "control", "who's in charge?" that kind of thinking) does end up making a
> culture that takes it as an assumption that people don't want to be with
> their kids if they don't have to. (And it makes a culture that makes
> families you *do* need a break from!) That *is* a sadness and a great
> poverty of spirit, imo.
>
>
> People seem to focus on managing children's behaviour, rather than
change. Have you ever seen a hungry kid, whose mom is getting one more
errand done before she feeds him. He is whining and she's on a mission to
pick up the drycleaner, the wine for a dinner party, and some boots at the
repair shop. Then if in the meltdown at the Food Court the inevitable
meltdown comes the mother will actually make the kid wait longer.
I once got into a conflict with a mother whose hungry child was "too whiny"
so she was going to punish her by letting the person behind them order next.
The line up was long and the girl (about four) kept asking if it was finally
their turn, she was saying how hungry she was, that her tummy hurt and
reciting all the things she wanted to order, as she bounced around on the
spot. Her mother was intent on managing her behavior. I would have been
rummaging through my purse looking for anything edible, card in hand anxious
for our turn. The girl burst into sobbing into protest as the adult male
went next on her turn, which meant the mother let another person go in their
stead.
The hungry kid's display was managed, rather than her hunger satiated. Only
until she could be silent and order politely (p's and q's) was her mother
satisfied. She glared at the people gaping, and of course there were more
people approving. A couple of us exchanged glances and I protested by
saying I have three kids much older and honestly hunger is a problem in need
of solving and expecting kids behaviour to be "restraint" when they are
really really hungry is unrealistic. I stopped talking when I realized the
mother was prepared to take her hungry sobbing baby to the back of the line.
People "manage" children's behaviour rather than stop to discover the
source, or even ignore the source in favor of some "lesson" or respect they
deem more important than the child's physical need.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]