Aggression
mandavia8
Hi All. I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he is. I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again that he feels like the "bad" guy. Any bad feeling that he has translates into aggression towards somebody else. He isn't remotely interested in hitting pillows or anything like (frankly, I don't blame him). This isn't what I want him to see in himself. There are so many very cool things about him.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Laura
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Laura
Pam Sorooshian
Can you give some specific examples from the past day or two? What upsets him? How do you and others usually react? Ages and genders of siblings? Dad around and how does he respond?
Pam
From my iPod
Pam
From my iPod
On Sep 10, 2010, at 8:05 AM, "mandavia8" <mandavia8@...> wrote:
> Hi All. I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he is. I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again that he feels like the "bad" guy. Any bad feeling that he has translates into aggression towards somebody else. He isn't remotely interested in hitting pillows or anything like (frankly, I don't blame him). This isn't what I want him to see in himself. There are so many very cool things about him.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Laura
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
He is 5. His sisters are 3 and 7.
This just happened: We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids and I, Dad is at work). We were all talking about our plans for the afternoon and various other things. Nothing stressful. Just chatting. He suddenly started to make this funny noise (a very common noise for him in various situations, I don't see any common thread for when this noise happens). He then snatched his special blanket out from under his sister and tried to whack her with it. She felt unsafe even though it wouldn't have hurt. Given the frequency of this sort of thing with various items I don't blame her. This time I told him that she was feeling unsafe. He didn't budge. She still felt unsafe. I said that we would put the blanket away if it was going to be a problem. He did stop but that's not always how it ends. More often than not I feel like I have to physically restrain him. I don't, though, because it doesn't feel right. I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns into him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.
My husband is wonderful and supportive and my son's favorite person. He thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in these sorts of scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs to know that I am strong and in charge. We are still sort of in the midst of the conversation (emails while my husband is at work) so I'm not clear about how he thinks I should do this.
When my husband is around he removes my son and then makes him laugh in one way or another. This changes the whole atmosphere for my son. It takes him a minute to switch gears but it works and his anger dissipates. This method doesn't work for me, though. My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand him. Whereas, with my husband, my son takes for granted that he does. I think it's a gender thing. I don't know what I can do about that. I make sure that we do active, physical things together multiple times a day. I make time for us to connect as often as possible.
My husband and I have talked about the possibility of him staying home more often to be there for our son. While this would work I don't see this as a solution. My son and I still have a disconnect that I'm having a hard time mending.
My son is the only boy in a house full of girls during the day. I know it's really hard for him a lot of the so I am mindful of that and make sure we do boy stuff together. He still has this residual frustration about it, though. I make sure he has regular play dates with friends who are boys, too.
I hope I managed to write that with some clarity.
This just happened: We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids and I, Dad is at work). We were all talking about our plans for the afternoon and various other things. Nothing stressful. Just chatting. He suddenly started to make this funny noise (a very common noise for him in various situations, I don't see any common thread for when this noise happens). He then snatched his special blanket out from under his sister and tried to whack her with it. She felt unsafe even though it wouldn't have hurt. Given the frequency of this sort of thing with various items I don't blame her. This time I told him that she was feeling unsafe. He didn't budge. She still felt unsafe. I said that we would put the blanket away if it was going to be a problem. He did stop but that's not always how it ends. More often than not I feel like I have to physically restrain him. I don't, though, because it doesn't feel right. I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns into him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.
My husband is wonderful and supportive and my son's favorite person. He thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in these sorts of scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs to know that I am strong and in charge. We are still sort of in the midst of the conversation (emails while my husband is at work) so I'm not clear about how he thinks I should do this.
When my husband is around he removes my son and then makes him laugh in one way or another. This changes the whole atmosphere for my son. It takes him a minute to switch gears but it works and his anger dissipates. This method doesn't work for me, though. My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand him. Whereas, with my husband, my son takes for granted that he does. I think it's a gender thing. I don't know what I can do about that. I make sure that we do active, physical things together multiple times a day. I make time for us to connect as often as possible.
My husband and I have talked about the possibility of him staying home more often to be there for our son. While this would work I don't see this as a solution. My son and I still have a disconnect that I'm having a hard time mending.
My son is the only boy in a house full of girls during the day. I know it's really hard for him a lot of the so I am mindful of that and make sure we do boy stuff together. He still has this residual frustration about it, though. I make sure he has regular play dates with friends who are boys, too.
I hope I managed to write that with some clarity.
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:24 PM
Can you give some specific examples from the past day or two? What upsets him? How do you and others usually react? Ages and genders of siblings? Dad around and how does he respond?
Pam
From my iPod
On Sep 10, 2010, at 8:05 AM, "mandavia8" <mandavia8@...> wrote:
> Hi All. I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he is. I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again that he feels like the "bad" guy. Any bad feeling that he has translates into aggression towards somebody else. He isn't remotely interested in hitting pillows or anything like (frankly, I don't blame him). This isn't what I want him to see in himself. There are so many very cool things about him.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Laura
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I bought some foam swords when Karl was 4 and he swung those around a
lot at things (outside if I could get him to since the house is small
and swords at that age could reach our short ceilinged fans. I got him
some "sabers" that have electronic sounds. I got oobleck so he could
make wonderful fun "bad" messes. Brian got him some foam Hulk hands
(Walmart I think) that make a great noise when you hit something with
them. I showed him how to throw those blinking light up neon balls
with suckers all over them (don't know the name of them) at the walls.
They stick for a few seconds before falling to the floor. We got a
Transformer mask that says "the Decepticons must be stopped" and other
things, and has a separate button to press for a voice changing
filter. I totally envied him all those action oriented toys and would
have loved to have had them when I was a small kid. Dolls weren't my
thing.
I wouldn't necessarily talk about nonaggression as the acceptable
(only?) option. Play with the children yourself. And maybe the girls
will decide they like it at some point and join in. It IS physical and
likely to devolve occasionally into aggressive behavior since the
children may lack the tools for getting along during physical play.
Your own behavior while playing with them can set the tone and over
time, they'll get the idea. And when it gets out of hand, notice how
and when aggression is cropping up. Then you can decide better what to
do when you have more specifics to talk about.
I have an only child and what you described about your son is just as
true of my child. It would be easy to label him "bad" if I didn't know
about the needs of different people for large muscle movement. I just
heard something yesterday from a retired teacher who said every few
minutes, to keep the kids from getting rowdy, it was necessary to
break up whatever they were doing and suggest the kids stretch or do
some other movement. She says the growth of muscles (I think that's
it) causes gas bubbles to form and get stuck. They're uncomfortable.
She also mentioned that fear creates a sudden need for lots of
movement and children worry about stuff just like everyone else. *I*
have to move when I worry. Sitting does me no good. She had 4 and 5
year olds and said the same thing works well with older kids and even
with adults. :) Some people don't need as much movement or interaction
and others just do. People are different.
~Katherine
lot at things (outside if I could get him to since the house is small
and swords at that age could reach our short ceilinged fans. I got him
some "sabers" that have electronic sounds. I got oobleck so he could
make wonderful fun "bad" messes. Brian got him some foam Hulk hands
(Walmart I think) that make a great noise when you hit something with
them. I showed him how to throw those blinking light up neon balls
with suckers all over them (don't know the name of them) at the walls.
They stick for a few seconds before falling to the floor. We got a
Transformer mask that says "the Decepticons must be stopped" and other
things, and has a separate button to press for a voice changing
filter. I totally envied him all those action oriented toys and would
have loved to have had them when I was a small kid. Dolls weren't my
thing.
I wouldn't necessarily talk about nonaggression as the acceptable
(only?) option. Play with the children yourself. And maybe the girls
will decide they like it at some point and join in. It IS physical and
likely to devolve occasionally into aggressive behavior since the
children may lack the tools for getting along during physical play.
Your own behavior while playing with them can set the tone and over
time, they'll get the idea. And when it gets out of hand, notice how
and when aggression is cropping up. Then you can decide better what to
do when you have more specifics to talk about.
I have an only child and what you described about your son is just as
true of my child. It would be easy to label him "bad" if I didn't know
about the needs of different people for large muscle movement. I just
heard something yesterday from a retired teacher who said every few
minutes, to keep the kids from getting rowdy, it was necessary to
break up whatever they were doing and suggest the kids stretch or do
some other movement. She says the growth of muscles (I think that's
it) causes gas bubbles to form and get stuck. They're uncomfortable.
She also mentioned that fear creates a sudden need for lots of
movement and children worry about stuff just like everyone else. *I*
have to move when I worry. Sitting does me no good. She had 4 and 5
year olds and said the same thing works well with older kids and even
with adults. :) Some people don't need as much movement or interaction
and others just do. People are different.
~Katherine
On 9/10/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> Can you give some specific examples from the past day or two? What upsets
> him? How do you and others usually react? Ages and genders of siblings? Dad
> around and how does he respond?
>
> Pam
>
> From my iPod
>
> On Sep 10, 2010, at 8:05 AM, "mandavia8" <mandavia8@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi All. I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he
>> is. I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways
>> while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again
>> that he feels like the "bad" guy. Any bad feeling that he has translates
>> into aggression towards somebody else. He isn't remotely interested in
>> hitting pillows or anything like (frankly, I don't blame him). This isn't
>> what I want him to see in himself. There are so many very cool things
>> about him.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Laura
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests.-=-
I haven't suggested that.
If you were all just hanging around, and the girl wasn't involved in
an altercation, and you had said "she feels unsafe," that's not the
kind of situation I've discussed when I talk about rescuing the kid
who's losing, because he wants to be rescued.
"She feels unsafe"? Is that a quote?
It seems distant to me, not direct, normal communication. It sounds
stilted.
The problem with that is if he feels you're reciting a script instead
of addressing him in that moment, that might make him angrier.
I would be more likely to say "If you want the blanket ask for it next
time, and walk him and the blanket to the other room and ask him what
his problem is.
-=-I said that we would put the blanket away if it was going to be a
problem. He did stop but that's not always how it ends. -=-
But if it ends more often than it used to, that's progress. "Not
always" isn't a good measure of whether it's getting better or worse.
"Don't grab" and "don't hit" seem better than "your sister is feeling
unsafe," to me.
But "If you want it, get her a different blanket" might be an option,
and "If you want to hit something, go hit a tree" (not in a "what a
good idea" way but in a "Don't hit people" way) might help--
acknowledge that he's hitting something, and let him consider for an
instant whether he "wants to hit something." You're not saying
"Never hit anything in the world," it's "you're hitting the wrong
thing."
-=He thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in
these sorts of scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs
to know that I am strong and in charge. We are still sort of in the
midst of the conversation (emails while my husband is at work) so I'm
not clear about how he thinks I should do this. -=-
Sharp voice and direct eye contact are normal mammal behavior and
don't involve hitting.
A loud, quick "STOP IT" is time-honored and works with people, dogs
and cats.
-= My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes
him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand
him. -=-
I was thinking that too, though, just from the way you've written
about it.
-=- I don't know what I can do about that. I make sure that we do
active, physical things together multiple times a day. -=-
Find other boys. Not boys his age. An older boy. Or even an older
girl, older than his sister, who will take him to the park or throw
balls with him or play a little rougher. Maybe this older kid could
help him learn to roller blade or skateboard. Holly's been doing
those things with an eight year old girl she's taking care of. (Well,
ice skating last week, and skateboarding.) It would be less expensive
to pay a young teen to create some adventures for him than for your
husband to work fewer hours.
-=-We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids and I, Dad is
at work).... My son is the only boy in a house full of girls during
the day.-=-
Are you stuck in the house without a car?
My kids often got along better away from the house than in it, when
they were little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests.-=-
I haven't suggested that.
If you were all just hanging around, and the girl wasn't involved in
an altercation, and you had said "she feels unsafe," that's not the
kind of situation I've discussed when I talk about rescuing the kid
who's losing, because he wants to be rescued.
"She feels unsafe"? Is that a quote?
It seems distant to me, not direct, normal communication. It sounds
stilted.
The problem with that is if he feels you're reciting a script instead
of addressing him in that moment, that might make him angrier.
I would be more likely to say "If you want the blanket ask for it next
time, and walk him and the blanket to the other room and ask him what
his problem is.
-=-I said that we would put the blanket away if it was going to be a
problem. He did stop but that's not always how it ends. -=-
But if it ends more often than it used to, that's progress. "Not
always" isn't a good measure of whether it's getting better or worse.
"Don't grab" and "don't hit" seem better than "your sister is feeling
unsafe," to me.
But "If you want it, get her a different blanket" might be an option,
and "If you want to hit something, go hit a tree" (not in a "what a
good idea" way but in a "Don't hit people" way) might help--
acknowledge that he's hitting something, and let him consider for an
instant whether he "wants to hit something." You're not saying
"Never hit anything in the world," it's "you're hitting the wrong
thing."
-=He thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in
these sorts of scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs
to know that I am strong and in charge. We are still sort of in the
midst of the conversation (emails while my husband is at work) so I'm
not clear about how he thinks I should do this. -=-
Sharp voice and direct eye contact are normal mammal behavior and
don't involve hitting.
A loud, quick "STOP IT" is time-honored and works with people, dogs
and cats.
-= My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes
him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand
him. -=-
I was thinking that too, though, just from the way you've written
about it.
-=- I don't know what I can do about that. I make sure that we do
active, physical things together multiple times a day. -=-
Find other boys. Not boys his age. An older boy. Or even an older
girl, older than his sister, who will take him to the park or throw
balls with him or play a little rougher. Maybe this older kid could
help him learn to roller blade or skateboard. Holly's been doing
those things with an eight year old girl she's taking care of. (Well,
ice skating last week, and skateboarding.) It would be less expensive
to pay a young teen to create some adventures for him than for your
husband to work fewer hours.
-=-We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids and I, Dad is
at work).... My son is the only boy in a house full of girls during
the day.-=-
Are you stuck in the house without a car?
My kids often got along better away from the house than in it, when
they were little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I don't think being charge (even tho you are in charge) is what he's
looking for. Kids don't care that much about exactly WHO is in charge.
Do you really think he's doing x to find out who's in charge?? It
could be that your son just wants closeness and will follow when
someone leads so as to have someone to hang out with? and that's the
dynamic between father and son? Maybe he doesn't have enough to do
that's of interest to him? Maybe he's hungry and maybe the food isn't
coming fast enough to meet the needs of growth spurts (that would
catch me unawares with Karl).
happening. The results you get may not be what your child was after at
all.
If someone was sitting on MY special blanket, and I didn't feel
comfortable asking for it, I might have behaved the same way at that
age. Not meaning to hurt anything or anyone. It might not have been
the best way to get his blanket out from under someone but how would
taking the blanket away do anything for the situation? It looks like
he wanted his blanket.
plans were swirling in the air around my head being discussed by
others and I couldn't keep up or participate very well or at all. I
got bored with it fast. Boredom and feeling out of the loop is
stressful. Maybe this is what is happening with your son.
left wondering if you're right. Talking about other people's feelings
as though they're that obvious seems funny to me. If you just said
there's a better way to get the blanket (to ask for it) then that
would be much more informative and helpful to a child who isn't versed
in better ways to get blankets out from under someone than grabbing
it. Sometimes there are better ways to help children get what they
want and need than talking about someone's feelings. At 5, a child has
little ability to focus on abstracts like feelings.
~Katherine
looking for. Kids don't care that much about exactly WHO is in charge.
Do you really think he's doing x to find out who's in charge?? It
could be that your son just wants closeness and will follow when
someone leads so as to have someone to hang out with? and that's the
dynamic between father and son? Maybe he doesn't have enough to do
that's of interest to him? Maybe he's hungry and maybe the food isn't
coming fast enough to meet the needs of growth spurts (that would
catch me unawares with Karl).
>>>I've been removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns into him following us and trying to hurt us both.<<<Is he REALLY *trying* to hurt anyone? Maybe that's what ends up
happening. The results you get may not be what your child was after at
all.
If someone was sitting on MY special blanket, and I didn't feel
comfortable asking for it, I might have behaved the same way at that
age. Not meaning to hurt anything or anyone. It might not have been
the best way to get his blanket out from under someone but how would
taking the blanket away do anything for the situation? It looks like
he wanted his blanket.
>>>We were all talking about our plans for the afternoon and various other things. Nothing stressful. Just chatting.<<<This sounds like an adult perspective. I always had a hard time when
plans were swirling in the air around my head being discussed by
others and I couldn't keep up or participate very well or at all. I
got bored with it fast. Boredom and feeling out of the loop is
stressful. Maybe this is what is happening with your son.
>>>She felt unsafe even though it wouldn't have hurt. Given the frequency of this sort of thing with various items I don't blame her. This time I told him that she was feeling unsafe. He didn't budge. She still felt unsafe. I said that we would put the blanket away if it was going to be a problem.<<<Is this your conversation with your son? If it all came from you, I am
left wondering if you're right. Talking about other people's feelings
as though they're that obvious seems funny to me. If you just said
there's a better way to get the blanket (to ask for it) then that
would be much more informative and helpful to a child who isn't versed
in better ways to get blankets out from under someone than grabbing
it. Sometimes there are better ways to help children get what they
want and need than talking about someone's feelings. At 5, a child has
little ability to focus on abstracts like feelings.
~Katherine
On 9/10/10, Laura Syria <mandavia8@...> wrote:
> He is 5. His sisters are 3 and 7.
> This just happened: We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids
> and I, Dad is at work). We were all talking about our plans for the
> afternoon and various other things. Nothing stressful. Just chatting. He
> suddenly started to make this funny noise (a very common noise for him in
> various situations, I don't see any common thread for when this noise
> happens). He then snatched his special blanket out from under his sister
> and tried to whack her with it. She felt unsafe even though it wouldn't
> have hurt. Given the frequency of this sort of thing with various items I
> don't blame her. This time I told him that she was feeling unsafe. He
> didn't budge. She still felt unsafe. I said that we would put the blanket
> away if it was going to be a problem. He did stop but that's not always how
> it ends. More often than not I feel like I have to physically restrain him.
> I don't, though, because it doesn't feel right. I've been
> removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns
> into him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.
> My husband is wonderful and supportive and my son's favorite person. He
> thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in these sorts
> of scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs to know that I am
> strong and in charge. We are still sort of in the midst of the conversation
> (emails while my husband is at work) so I'm not clear about how he thinks I
> should do this.
> When my husband is around he removes my son and then makes him laugh in one
> way or another. This changes the whole atmosphere for my son. It takes him
> a minute to switch gears but it works and his anger dissipates. This method
> doesn't work for me, though. My son gets VERY offended when I try to make
> him laugh and it makes him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I
> truly understand him. Whereas, with my husband, my son takes for granted
> that he does. I think it's a gender thing. I don't know what I can do
> about that. I make sure that we do active, physical things together
> multiple times a day. I make time for us to connect as often as possible.
> My husband and I have talked about the possibility of him staying home more
> often to be there for our son. While this would work I don't see this as a
> solution. My son and I still have a disconnect that I'm having a hard time
> mending.
> My son is the only boy in a house full of girls during the day. I know it's
> really hard for him a lot of the so I am mindful of that and make sure we do
> boy stuff together. He still has this residual frustration about it,
> though. I make sure he has regular play dates with friends who are boys,
> too.
> I hope I managed to write that with some clarity.
>
> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Robin Bentley
Why was the 3 year old sitting on your son's special blanket? If it's
his special blanket, it would be good to be aware of where it is and
make sure it's easily available to him (i.e. not under his little
sister). With a kid whose temperament means he/she goes from 0 to 60,
being proactive in these kinds of situations is key to averting the
scenario you described.
The "funny noise" might be his all-of-a-sudden realization that things
are not going in his favor. His expression of "oh no!" in other words,
followed by immediate action.
Sometimes the 0-60 happens if a child is needing protein or a drink or
sleep or attention. Sometimes it happens due to external situations,
but is exacerbated by lack of those things. And other times, it's hard
to know. But being your child's partner is about figuring that out.
What you wrote about his relationship with your husband and his with
you leads me to believe that you might not be thinking of him as
needing attention *because* he's a boy. Doing "physical stuff" is
great, but are you seeing him as a person with needs for closeness,
for specialness? He gets that focused attention from dad, but it seems
he might need more from you, too.
Robin B.
his special blanket, it would be good to be aware of where it is and
make sure it's easily available to him (i.e. not under his little
sister). With a kid whose temperament means he/she goes from 0 to 60,
being proactive in these kinds of situations is key to averting the
scenario you described.
The "funny noise" might be his all-of-a-sudden realization that things
are not going in his favor. His expression of "oh no!" in other words,
followed by immediate action.
Sometimes the 0-60 happens if a child is needing protein or a drink or
sleep or attention. Sometimes it happens due to external situations,
but is exacerbated by lack of those things. And other times, it's hard
to know. But being your child's partner is about figuring that out.
What you wrote about his relationship with your husband and his with
you leads me to believe that you might not be thinking of him as
needing attention *because* he's a boy. Doing "physical stuff" is
great, but are you seeing him as a person with needs for closeness,
for specialness? He gets that focused attention from dad, but it seems
he might need more from you, too.
Robin B.
lylaw
also - your very first sentence labeled your son negatively, rather than just discussing one aspect of his actions for which you are seeking support - you said :
" I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he is "
I'd suggest trying to think of him in all the ways he is - beyond and other than being sometimes aggressive
then you said:
" I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again that he feels like the "bad" guy"
he feels like the bad guy, in part, because you think of him as your "aggressive son"
would say compassion and empathy for the unmet needs HE has that are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
" I am having a difficult time meeting my aggressive son where he is "
I'd suggest trying to think of him in all the ways he is - beyond and other than being sometimes aggressive
then you said:
" I am having trouble showing him ways to express himself in other ways while keeping his siblings safe. I see it happening over and over again that he feels like the "bad" guy"
he feels like the bad guy, in part, because you think of him as your "aggressive son"
would say compassion and empathy for the unmet needs HE has that are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think being charge (even tho you are in charge) is what he's
looking for. Kids don't care that much about exactly WHO is in charge.-
=-
Even if he doesn't care, his sisters might appreciate the
clarification that someone IS in charge, and it's not the brother.
-=-It
could be that your son just wants closeness and will follow when
someone leads so as to have someone to hang out with? and that's the
dynamic between father and son? -=-
Heck, *I* like to follow someone who's leading in good and interesting
directions. And when I accept someone else's lead, that person is in
charge, in that instance, and there's comfort in that.
Maybe "just hanging out" is the problem. Be DOING something, maybe
have two things going on in the room, neither required, but so that
there are interesting options. I don't think ANY little boys are
good at just sitting in a room with girls.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
looking for. Kids don't care that much about exactly WHO is in charge.-
=-
Even if he doesn't care, his sisters might appreciate the
clarification that someone IS in charge, and it's not the brother.
-=-It
could be that your son just wants closeness and will follow when
someone leads so as to have someone to hang out with? and that's the
dynamic between father and son? -=-
Heck, *I* like to follow someone who's leading in good and interesting
directions. And when I accept someone else's lead, that person is in
charge, in that instance, and there's comfort in that.
Maybe "just hanging out" is the problem. Be DOING something, maybe
have two things going on in the room, neither required, but so that
there are interesting options. I don't think ANY little boys are
good at just sitting in a room with girls.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***We were all hanging out in the living room (the kids and I, Dad is at work).
We were all talking about our plans for the afternoon and various other things.
Nothing stressful. Just chatting. He suddenly started to make this funny
noise (a very common noise for him in various situations, I don't see any common
thread for when this noise happens). He then snatched his special blanket out
from under his sister and tried to whack her with it. She felt unsafe even
though it wouldn't have hurt. ***
As an outsider looking in, what I saw in that description, even before you
explained further, was a gender divide as well as a middle child issue. First,
why was someone sitting on his special blanket? That may seem like a small
thing, but it could be a symptom of something bigger of the siblings around him
not being very mindful of him. That's not necessarily something that a sibling
may see or prevent, but a parent could. If everyone is sitting down to talk,
make sure that nobody is sitting on anyone else's special anything as they sit
down. Make sure that this boy has his space and things in a way that no sisters
can interfere, even unintentionally.
Somehow, along the way the sister have felt unsafe around their brother even
when they really aren't unsafe. I would ask them to stop over dramatizing the
situation. In the scenario given, without knowing all the subtle nuances, I
would have been very direct in saying, "please scoot over and get off your
brother's blanket". If that didn't diffuse the situation, then addressing the
blanket hitting would have been next. The brother needs other ways to
communicate than hitting. The issue seems to have been a violation of space,
which he chose to act upon by taking back his personal item and hitting the
offending person with it.
***I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns into
him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.***
Perhaps he follows to make sure in a way that his thoughts and ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child and the
only boy.
***My husband is wonderful and supportive and my son's favorite person. He
thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in these sorts of
scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs to know that I am strong
and in charge.***
Right, I can see that. If you are in charge of these scenarios, then you'll be
looking out for him to make sure he isn't trampled on by his sisters. You can
prevent him from getting to a place of frustration by being mindful of his needs
before he feels threatened.
What your husband does is sweet, he takes him out of the situation and distracts
him and helps bring him to a better space. Watch how your husband does it. See
what it is that he does that makes the difference. If you've tried to replicate
it and it hasn't worked, what else is he doing different that you aren't. Maybe
there's a level of comedy that you aren't getting. Maybe there's a beginning
grand gesture that literally sweeps him away. Maybe there are certain toys that
are part of the joking and distraction. Or maybe it doesn't work because you
haven't been the rescuer, but have unintentionally made him feel more of a bad
guy. Maybe after you change that around, you'll be able to be more of the
rescuer. Maybe you won't even need to anymore.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We were all talking about our plans for the afternoon and various other things.
Nothing stressful. Just chatting. He suddenly started to make this funny
noise (a very common noise for him in various situations, I don't see any common
thread for when this noise happens). He then snatched his special blanket out
from under his sister and tried to whack her with it. She felt unsafe even
though it wouldn't have hurt. ***
As an outsider looking in, what I saw in that description, even before you
explained further, was a gender divide as well as a middle child issue. First,
why was someone sitting on his special blanket? That may seem like a small
thing, but it could be a symptom of something bigger of the siblings around him
not being very mindful of him. That's not necessarily something that a sibling
may see or prevent, but a parent could. If everyone is sitting down to talk,
make sure that nobody is sitting on anyone else's special anything as they sit
down. Make sure that this boy has his space and things in a way that no sisters
can interfere, even unintentionally.
Somehow, along the way the sister have felt unsafe around their brother even
when they really aren't unsafe. I would ask them to stop over dramatizing the
situation. In the scenario given, without knowing all the subtle nuances, I
would have been very direct in saying, "please scoot over and get off your
brother's blanket". If that didn't diffuse the situation, then addressing the
blanket hitting would have been next. The brother needs other ways to
communicate than hitting. The issue seems to have been a violation of space,
which he chose to act upon by taking back his personal item and hitting the
offending person with it.
***I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often turns into
him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.***
Perhaps he follows to make sure in a way that his thoughts and ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child and the
only boy.
***My husband is wonderful and supportive and my son's favorite person. He
thinks that what my son needs is to know that I'm in charge in these sorts of
scenarios. That in the most gentle way I can he needs to know that I am strong
and in charge.***
Right, I can see that. If you are in charge of these scenarios, then you'll be
looking out for him to make sure he isn't trampled on by his sisters. You can
prevent him from getting to a place of frustration by being mindful of his needs
before he feels threatened.
What your husband does is sweet, he takes him out of the situation and distracts
him and helps bring him to a better space. Watch how your husband does it. See
what it is that he does that makes the difference. If you've tried to replicate
it and it hasn't worked, what else is he doing different that you aren't. Maybe
there's a level of comedy that you aren't getting. Maybe there's a beginning
grand gesture that literally sweeps him away. Maybe there are certain toys that
are part of the joking and distraction. Or maybe it doesn't work because you
haven't been the rescuer, but have unintentionally made him feel more of a bad
guy. Maybe after you change that around, you'll be able to be more of the
rescuer. Maybe you won't even need to anymore.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
--=I haven't suggested that.If you were all just hanging around, and the girl wasn't involved in
an altercation, and you had said "she feels unsafe," that's not the
kind of situation I've discussed when I talk about rescuing the kid
who's losing, because he wants to be rescued.=--
I think I clearly just don't understand what it is you are saying.
--="She feels unsafe"? Is that a quote?
It seems distant to me, not direct, normal communication. It sounds
stilted.
The problem with that is if he feels you're reciting a script instead
of addressing him in that moment, that might make him angrier.--=
My daughter (the 7yo) talk about this a lot because her relationship with her brother makes her really sad. She has said many times that she feels unsafe when he threatens her in that way.
--=I would be more likely to say "If you want the blanket ask for it next
time, and walk him and the blanket to the other room and ask him what
his problem is.--=
That is how I always have dealt with this sort of thing. It wasn't working, though. He gets mad at me when I redirect him or take him away. When I ask him what's wrong he won't tell me. I suspect he doesn't know how to articulate what's wrong.
--=
"Don't grab" and "don't hit" seem better than "your sister is feeling
unsafe," to me.--=
I have always thought that was true but he doesn't listen to me. He tunes me out and I can myself turning into white noise. That's not how I want him to hear me.
--=-= My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes
him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand
him. -=-
I was thinking that too, though, just from the way you've written
about it.--=
I think that, too. I know he feels that way. What I don't know is how to connect with him in a way that shows him I do care and I do understand.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
an altercation, and you had said "she feels unsafe," that's not the
kind of situation I've discussed when I talk about rescuing the kid
who's losing, because he wants to be rescued.=--
I think I clearly just don't understand what it is you are saying.
--="She feels unsafe"? Is that a quote?
It seems distant to me, not direct, normal communication. It sounds
stilted.
The problem with that is if he feels you're reciting a script instead
of addressing him in that moment, that might make him angrier.--=
My daughter (the 7yo) talk about this a lot because her relationship with her brother makes her really sad. She has said many times that she feels unsafe when he threatens her in that way.
--=I would be more likely to say "If you want the blanket ask for it next
time, and walk him and the blanket to the other room and ask him what
his problem is.--=
That is how I always have dealt with this sort of thing. It wasn't working, though. He gets mad at me when I redirect him or take him away. When I ask him what's wrong he won't tell me. I suspect he doesn't know how to articulate what's wrong.
--=
"Don't grab" and "don't hit" seem better than "your sister is feeling
unsafe," to me.--=
I have always thought that was true but he doesn't listen to me. He tunes me out and I can myself turning into white noise. That's not how I want him to hear me.
--=-= My son gets VERY offended when I try to make him laugh and it makes
him more angry. I feel like he doesn't feel like I truly understand
him. -=-
I was thinking that too, though, just from the way you've written
about it.--=
I think that, too. I know he feels that way. What I don't know is how to connect with him in a way that shows him I do care and I do understand.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
--=Maybe "just hanging out" is the problem. Be DOING something, maybe
have two things going on in the room, neither required, but so that
there are interesting options. I don't think ANY little boys are
good at just sitting in a room with girls.--=
You are absolutely right. I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is he wants. Besides battling, what is it that boys like to do? Could I get some not active suggestions for boy play?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have two things going on in the room, neither required, but so that
there are interesting options. I don't think ANY little boys are
good at just sitting in a room with girls.--=
You are absolutely right. I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is he wants. Besides battling, what is it that boys like to do? Could I get some not active suggestions for boy play?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
--=would say compassion and empathy for the unmet needs HE has that are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.--=
Could you please explain this in a different way? I'm having a hard time translating that into something that I can utilize during my days. I love what it says and I know that it's true. I am having difficulty, though, in translating that thought into action.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could you please explain this in a different way? I'm having a hard time translating that into something that I can utilize during my days. I love what it says and I know that it's true. I am having difficulty, though, in translating that thought into action.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-***I've been
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often
turns into
him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.***
-=-Perhaps he follows to make sure in a way that his thoughts and
ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child
and the
only boy.-=-
I agree. I don't like people to go somewhere else that way. The
sister would be taken away for soothing, leaving the bad boy behind.
I've already mentioned it, but just in case anyone missed it,
"removing the child who feels unsafe" isn't (in the context of the boy
whose sister is sitting on his blanket) familiar to me, so I don't
want the credit. My recommendation was (passed on from a teacher I
worked with years ago) was when there is a fight (physical
altercation), and you want to break it up, grab the one who's losing.
He will want to be rescued.
The longer recommendation from which I think the idea above came is
this:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
But the example given in this topic happened with the mother in the
room. That's a different situation, if she was right there and saw
the whole thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
removing the child who feels unsafe like Sandra suggests. This often
turns into
him following us and trying to hurt us both. This, too, feels wrong.***
-=-Perhaps he follows to make sure in a way that his thoughts and
ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child
and the
only boy.-=-
I agree. I don't like people to go somewhere else that way. The
sister would be taken away for soothing, leaving the bad boy behind.
I've already mentioned it, but just in case anyone missed it,
"removing the child who feels unsafe" isn't (in the context of the boy
whose sister is sitting on his blanket) familiar to me, so I don't
want the credit. My recommendation was (passed on from a teacher I
worked with years ago) was when there is a fight (physical
altercation), and you want to break it up, grab the one who's losing.
He will want to be rescued.
The longer recommendation from which I think the idea above came is
this:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
But the example given in this topic happened with the mother in the
room. That's a different situation, if she was right there and saw
the whole thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
-=-Perhaps he follows to make sure in a way that his thoughts and
ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child
and the
only boy.-=-
I agree, too. I felt so mean the times I did that because he was left feeling bad. It would have made me feel awful, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ideas are fairly
represented. He probably feels trampled upon. He's the middle child
and the
only boy.-=-
I agree, too. I felt so mean the times I did that because he was left feeling bad. It would have made me feel awful, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My daughter (the 7yo) talk about this a lot because her
relationship with her brother makes her really sad. She has said many
times that she feels unsafe when he threatens her in that way.-=-
But does she use the phrase "I feel unsafe"?
That's what I'm talking about.
Are you paraphrasing? Or is she using a phrase she has learned from
you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
relationship with her brother makes her really sad. She has said many
times that she feels unsafe when he threatens her in that way.-=-
But does she use the phrase "I feel unsafe"?
That's what I'm talking about.
Are you paraphrasing? Or is she using a phrase she has learned from
you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
She says, "I don't feel safe. He scares me". She often says things that don't sound at all like a 7 year old would say them.
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 7:12 PM
-=-My daughter (the 7yo) talk about this a lot because her
relationship with her brother makes her really sad. She has said many
times that she feels unsafe when he threatens her in that way.-=-
But does she use the phrase "I feel unsafe"?
That's what I'm talking about.
Are you paraphrasing? Or is she using a phrase she has learned from
you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What I don't know is how to connect with him in a way that shows
him I do care and I do understand.-=-
If you've been assuring him that you do understand, he might be
starting to lose confidence in your communications.
-=-I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is
he wants. -=-
So you don't understand him.
That's okay, to have a kid who baffles you.
It's less okay to want to show him how much you understand instead of
saying honestly "I don't understand." But I'm not recommending that
you say to him "I do not understand you." Neither am I recommending
that you ask him WHY he does things and expect him to even know. If
you don't know and you're grown, how will he know, at five years old?
Maybe that's a lot of the problem. It might be that you're expecting
him to understand more than he does, at his age. And he would have
been the baby, if you hadn't had the younger girl. Perhaps too much
was expected of him too soon.
Instead of sending him with your husband automatically, as a default
thing, maybe give him the choice of whether to go and do something
with you or with your husband. Don't make it a trap or a quiz with a
"right answer." But let him choose. He might choose his dad the
next 20 times, but when it makes sense to do so, let him choose.
Maybe one of the girls would like some of your husband's attention,
too. And each time it's a new choice, you're giving him more power,
and more autonomy, and he's feeling like you're his partner, rather
than the person who waits to get rid of him to his dad. (That might
not be how you feel about it, but it could possibly be how he feels.)
It takes a long time to build up good, strong relationships, and every
little choice you make now goes toward that "account" (or takes away
from it...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
him I do care and I do understand.-=-
If you've been assuring him that you do understand, he might be
starting to lose confidence in your communications.
-=-I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is
he wants. -=-
So you don't understand him.
That's okay, to have a kid who baffles you.
It's less okay to want to show him how much you understand instead of
saying honestly "I don't understand." But I'm not recommending that
you say to him "I do not understand you." Neither am I recommending
that you ask him WHY he does things and expect him to even know. If
you don't know and you're grown, how will he know, at five years old?
Maybe that's a lot of the problem. It might be that you're expecting
him to understand more than he does, at his age. And he would have
been the baby, if you hadn't had the younger girl. Perhaps too much
was expected of him too soon.
Instead of sending him with your husband automatically, as a default
thing, maybe give him the choice of whether to go and do something
with you or with your husband. Don't make it a trap or a quiz with a
"right answer." But let him choose. He might choose his dad the
next 20 times, but when it makes sense to do so, let him choose.
Maybe one of the girls would like some of your husband's attention,
too. And each time it's a new choice, you're giving him more power,
and more autonomy, and he's feeling like you're his partner, rather
than the person who waits to get rid of him to his dad. (That might
not be how you feel about it, but it could possibly be how he feels.)
It takes a long time to build up good, strong relationships, and every
little choice you make now goes toward that "account" (or takes away
from it...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=---=would say compassion and empathy for the unmet needs HE has that
are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention
prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with
understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space
in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.--=
-=-Could you please explain this in a different way? -=-
It wasn't my writing, but these might help:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
http://sandradodd.com/respect
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention
prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with
understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space
in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.--=
-=-Could you please explain this in a different way? -=-
It wasn't my writing, but these might help:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
http://sandradodd.com/respect
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
>>>>You are absolutely right. I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is he wants. Besides battling, what is it that boys like to do? Could I get some not active suggestions for boy play?>>>
you're still really drawing a gender line. while I think it's important to recognize the influence of gender on the needs of the child, it's equally important to look directly at the child and to not exclude ideas for ways to connect, just based on gender. it's very limiting...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-She says, "I don't feel safe. He scares me". She often says
things that don't sound at all like a 7 year old would say them=-
Does she say it to you rather than to him?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
things that don't sound at all like a 7 year old would say them=-
Does she say it to you rather than to him?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
--=would say compassion and empathy for the unmet needs HE has that are resulting in his aggressive actions, and prevention prevention prevention. once he feels his emotional " cup" is abundantly full with understanding and protection from his own impulses, he will have space in his own brain to absorb alternative actions when things go awry.--=
Could you please explain this in a different way? I'm having a hard time translating that into something that I can utilize during my days. I love what it says and I know that it's true. I am having difficulty, though, in translating that thought into action.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
when he feels really understood - not criticized or like "the aggressive son" - he will have room to learn new ways of responding to stress, within developmental capability. so if he starts to hit, maybe get down on the floor with him and tell him kindly but firmly that you won't let him hit his sister, but that you see he really wants his blanket. even apologize for not noticing that his blanket was getting sat on. say "oh, no, your blanket, I am so sorry, that really bothers you when we forget how important your blanket is to you"
or even better, notice the blanket ahead of time and make sure it's not sat on. if he ends up hitting because you don't prevent or respond in time, don't focus on the hitting. you've already missed your opportunity and his emotional brain is engaged, not his logical brain - lecturing, explaining, teaching, reminding, expecting logic or control - not reasonable at that moment. not really very reasonable at age 5 much of the time, but especially in the heat of the moment.
sometimes you might be able to insert yourself in between your kids with a "WAIT! we can resolve this!" conveying confidence and trust in your voice that everything can be worked through, empathy for his position, and taking responsibility for better mother-prevention-needs for the future can calm things down dramatically.
and then there are all the other ways people have mentioned to show he's understood and to convey compassion - like setting the situation up for success in the first place - not sitting around if that leads to conflict, making sure he's fed, engaged, rested, nurtured, and has had his physical / sensory needs met.
but most of this starts with really working on yourself to genuinely FEEL that compassion in your own head and heart when you interact with him, rather than trying to figure out how to TEACH him better ways.
does that help?
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could you please explain this in a different way? I'm having a hard time translating that into something that I can utilize during my days. I love what it says and I know that it's true. I am having difficulty, though, in translating that thought into action.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
when he feels really understood - not criticized or like "the aggressive son" - he will have room to learn new ways of responding to stress, within developmental capability. so if he starts to hit, maybe get down on the floor with him and tell him kindly but firmly that you won't let him hit his sister, but that you see he really wants his blanket. even apologize for not noticing that his blanket was getting sat on. say "oh, no, your blanket, I am so sorry, that really bothers you when we forget how important your blanket is to you"
or even better, notice the blanket ahead of time and make sure it's not sat on. if he ends up hitting because you don't prevent or respond in time, don't focus on the hitting. you've already missed your opportunity and his emotional brain is engaged, not his logical brain - lecturing, explaining, teaching, reminding, expecting logic or control - not reasonable at that moment. not really very reasonable at age 5 much of the time, but especially in the heat of the moment.
sometimes you might be able to insert yourself in between your kids with a "WAIT! we can resolve this!" conveying confidence and trust in your voice that everything can be worked through, empathy for his position, and taking responsibility for better mother-prevention-needs for the future can calm things down dramatically.
and then there are all the other ways people have mentioned to show he's understood and to convey compassion - like setting the situation up for success in the first place - not sitting around if that leads to conflict, making sure he's fed, engaged, rested, nurtured, and has had his physical / sensory needs met.
but most of this starts with really working on yourself to genuinely FEEL that compassion in your own head and heart when you interact with him, rather than trying to figure out how to TEACH him better ways.
does that help?
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
Yes, I am drawing a gender line. A line that I never would have made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in my life.
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, lylaw <lylaw@...> wrote:
From: lylaw <lylaw@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 7:45 PM
>>>>
You are absolutely right. I feel like I'm such a girl that I honestly don't know what it is he wants. Besides battling, what is it that boys like to do? Could I get some not active suggestions for boy play?>>>
you're still really drawing a gender line. while I think it's important to recognize the influence of gender on the needs of the child, it's equally important to look directly at the child and to not exclude ideas for ways to connect, just based on gender. it's very limiting...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
She says these things to me at night before bed when she recaps her day.
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 7:52 PM
-=-She says, "I don't feel safe. He scares me". She often says
things that don't sound at all like a 7 year old would say them=-
Does she say it to you rather than to him?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
From: Laura Syria
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
Yes, I am drawing a gender line. A line that I never would have made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in my life. ++++++++++++++++++++
I am not suggesting gender neutrality actually. OR treating him as a girl. I am suggesting not thinking of him as a foreign subject who you can't connect with, based on his boyness...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
Yes, I am drawing a gender line. A line that I never would have made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in my life. ++++++++++++++++++++
I am not suggesting gender neutrality actually. OR treating him as a girl. I am suggesting not thinking of him as a foreign subject who you can't connect with, based on his boyness...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I felt so mean the times I did that because he was left feeling bad. It
would have made me feel awful, too. ***
This exactly the feeling that should be examined. If any parent feels badly
about an action they have taken towards their child, examine it and turn it
inside out. Don't accept it as natural, don't accept it as something that must
be done for the greater good. Spanking is an extreme example of that.
I assume this is why you put forth the question in the first place! Something
doesn't feel right and you know it and see it, now to get to the bottom of it.
My personal feeling is that our culture is designed, these days, to see a
symptom and try to make the symptom go away, rather than looking more deeply at
the underlying cause.
In your own words, it seems you know what it is. He's, the only boy and he's
frustrated, now you need tools to change the dynamic.
Something that I've found useful when I've been frustrated by one of my
children's behaviors, is to step back and look at all the things about them that
are positive and wonderful. When I'm able to do that, I automatically shift my
interactions with my kids. It's not magic, but it can feel that way. Some
children are simply more intense than others or their personalities are less
similar and it's easy to see them as "the other" or something else less than
stellar.
It doesn't mean that hitting exemplifies stellar behavior, but more that you
have a beautiful boy who behaves like a boy. What's beautiful about boys, and
what's beautiful about your particular boy, even while he's in the midst of
being angry? It can change your thought from "ugh my angry boy", to "my
beautiful boy is angry, what can I do to help him?"
When I first read the description, the words you chose were about a little boy
whose special blanket was being sat upon. It was both very literal and almost
analogous to how and why that boy feels so upset about things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would have made me feel awful, too. ***
This exactly the feeling that should be examined. If any parent feels badly
about an action they have taken towards their child, examine it and turn it
inside out. Don't accept it as natural, don't accept it as something that must
be done for the greater good. Spanking is an extreme example of that.
I assume this is why you put forth the question in the first place! Something
doesn't feel right and you know it and see it, now to get to the bottom of it.
My personal feeling is that our culture is designed, these days, to see a
symptom and try to make the symptom go away, rather than looking more deeply at
the underlying cause.
In your own words, it seems you know what it is. He's, the only boy and he's
frustrated, now you need tools to change the dynamic.
Something that I've found useful when I've been frustrated by one of my
children's behaviors, is to step back and look at all the things about them that
are positive and wonderful. When I'm able to do that, I automatically shift my
interactions with my kids. It's not magic, but it can feel that way. Some
children are simply more intense than others or their personalities are less
similar and it's easy to see them as "the other" or something else less than
stellar.
It doesn't mean that hitting exemplifies stellar behavior, but more that you
have a beautiful boy who behaves like a boy. What's beautiful about boys, and
what's beautiful about your particular boy, even while he's in the midst of
being angry? It can change your thought from "ugh my angry boy", to "my
beautiful boy is angry, what can I do to help him?"
When I first read the description, the words you chose were about a little boy
whose special blanket was being sat upon. It was both very literal and almost
analogous to how and why that boy feels so upset about things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/10/2010 4:53 PM, lylaw wrote:
She has a bunch of kids with a wide age span. I heard her say (and I
wish I could convey the tone of voice), "Hey, don't hit your sister what
do you want?" Kind of all one line - in a very matter of fact voice.
The "don't hit your sister" part sounded, in tone, kind of like, "So you
already KNOW I am not going to let you hit your sister so what the heck
are you trying that for since you know that's not gonna work." Only not
all those words, just "Hey, don't hit your sister..." followed in the
same breath with, "What do you want?"
The tone is what I want to talk about - it wasn't condemning, it wasn't
shocked, there was no hit of "What a bad person you are," and no hint of
fear or begging. It was just a reminder that hitting wasn't okay and she
wasn't going to let it happen. It was firm, but easy - it was said in a
clear voice, no pleading, no threatening, just sort of dry, but there
was also some underlying warmth and a sense that she knew that he knew
what she meant - some respect.
I think a lot of parents talk way way way too much. They would do better
to work on conveying what they want the kids to really hear by their
tone of voice and body language and a few words.
I think Laura might be a little bewildred by Sandra's questioning of the
use of the word "safe." As a high-falutin' principle, it is a great
word. It is a principle of our family life that people should feel safe
in our home - safe from physical harm and also from mental and emotional
harm.
But it is too big a meaning for a 7 yo to be using because her 5 yo
brother is swinging a blanket at her. it raised a flag for me that
there is too much talking about "feeling safe" going on. "I don't feel
safe" would make more sense for a child to say if she's generally being
bullied or abused, not about normal sibling conflicts which, at that
age, are often physically acted out. If she said that to a mandated
reporter, you might get reported. I'd steer away from it to very simple
responses. Probably, my guess, is that mom is talking like this - in
kind of big-picture stilted language, trying to do the right thing, and
trying too hard, so that things are a bit stilted. Older daughter is
probably very verbal and a mommy-pleasing kid and is picking up that
language and using it.
I wish I could bottle my friend's voice on the phone - she's so simple
and clear and direct and her voice is so sweet, but firm, at the same time.
I think Laura needs really clear concrete explanations, she's so way
into her own head and over-thinking everything and trying to do things
"right" to the point that it isn't "real." And it is sort of unlucky, in
a way, when a parent "gets" the first kid really well - when their
personalities are alike enough that the second feels sometimes like an
outsider. I had this too - to an extent - with Roxana, my middle child,
because Roya and I were so so much alike and Roxana was not the same
temperament. I've learned over the years to SUPER appreciate her
temperament and to take on some of it myself, to my own betterment.
So - long post and rambly, but I hope there is something useful in
there. Laura - I think more specific examples that people can take apart
and discuss alternative approaches will really help you out.
-pam
> within developmental capability. so if he starts to hit, maybe getI was on the phone with someone whose parenting I respect a whole lot
> down on the floor with him and tell him kindly but firmly that you
> won't let him hit his sister, but that you see he really wants his
> blanket. even apologize for not noticing that his blanket was getting
> sat on. say "oh, no, your blanket, I am so sorry, that really bothers
> you when we forget how important your blanket is to you"
She has a bunch of kids with a wide age span. I heard her say (and I
wish I could convey the tone of voice), "Hey, don't hit your sister what
do you want?" Kind of all one line - in a very matter of fact voice.
The "don't hit your sister" part sounded, in tone, kind of like, "So you
already KNOW I am not going to let you hit your sister so what the heck
are you trying that for since you know that's not gonna work." Only not
all those words, just "Hey, don't hit your sister..." followed in the
same breath with, "What do you want?"
The tone is what I want to talk about - it wasn't condemning, it wasn't
shocked, there was no hit of "What a bad person you are," and no hint of
fear or begging. It was just a reminder that hitting wasn't okay and she
wasn't going to let it happen. It was firm, but easy - it was said in a
clear voice, no pleading, no threatening, just sort of dry, but there
was also some underlying warmth and a sense that she knew that he knew
what she meant - some respect.
I think a lot of parents talk way way way too much. They would do better
to work on conveying what they want the kids to really hear by their
tone of voice and body language and a few words.
I think Laura might be a little bewildred by Sandra's questioning of the
use of the word "safe." As a high-falutin' principle, it is a great
word. It is a principle of our family life that people should feel safe
in our home - safe from physical harm and also from mental and emotional
harm.
But it is too big a meaning for a 7 yo to be using because her 5 yo
brother is swinging a blanket at her. it raised a flag for me that
there is too much talking about "feeling safe" going on. "I don't feel
safe" would make more sense for a child to say if she's generally being
bullied or abused, not about normal sibling conflicts which, at that
age, are often physically acted out. If she said that to a mandated
reporter, you might get reported. I'd steer away from it to very simple
responses. Probably, my guess, is that mom is talking like this - in
kind of big-picture stilted language, trying to do the right thing, and
trying too hard, so that things are a bit stilted. Older daughter is
probably very verbal and a mommy-pleasing kid and is picking up that
language and using it.
I wish I could bottle my friend's voice on the phone - she's so simple
and clear and direct and her voice is so sweet, but firm, at the same time.
I think Laura needs really clear concrete explanations, she's so way
into her own head and over-thinking everything and trying to do things
"right" to the point that it isn't "real." And it is sort of unlucky, in
a way, when a parent "gets" the first kid really well - when their
personalities are alike enough that the second feels sometimes like an
outsider. I had this too - to an extent - with Roxana, my middle child,
because Roya and I were so so much alike and Roxana was not the same
temperament. I've learned over the years to SUPER appreciate her
temperament and to take on some of it myself, to my own betterment.
So - long post and rambly, but I hope there is something useful in
there. Laura - I think more specific examples that people can take apart
and discuss alternative approaches will really help you out.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-She says these things to me at night before bed when she recaps her
day.-=-
You probably already say some or all of these things, but I would
sympathize (I'm sorry he's that way) and predict (he's just little
too; he won't always be five years old) or "What can I do to help you
feel safer?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
day.-=-
You probably already say some or all of these things, but I would
sympathize (I'm sorry he's that way) and predict (he's just little
too; he won't always be five years old) or "What can I do to help you
feel safer?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Syria
I see what you're saying. Here's the thing that I need help with, I don't generally understand boys. With girls, who generally are more able to express themselves verbally, they tell me what's going on and I can help. With boys, who don't necessarily express themselves as well, verbally, I'm at a loss. At least this has been my experience and it is the situation with my son. In what other ways can I read him?
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, lylaw <lylaw@...> wrote:
From: lylaw <lylaw@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 8:09 PM
From: Laura Syria
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Aggression
Yes, I am drawing a gender line. A line that I never would have made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in my life. ++++++++++++++++++++
I am not suggesting gender neutrality actually. OR treating him as a girl. I am suggesting not thinking of him as a foreign subject who you can't connect with, based on his boyness...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, I am drawing a gender line. A line that I never would have
made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line
all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. -=-
Just because he "draws the line" about gender doesn't mean you have to
go there with him.
But maybe you could talk to him about that, if he's talking about his
boy-ness. Talk to him about how it might be different if he had a
twin sister--or if one of his sisters had a twin brother. It might be
a fun conversation just in general, but you could learn more about how
he sees the differences.
-=-I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in
my life. -=-
Stressing it to us won't change anything. It does already seem that
you're either expecting him to be more girlish, or that you're seeing
him as the single male in the group while your husband is working, and
that comes from the phrases you yourself chose and wrote and posted.
Sometimes people write without realizing what they've written but
outside of typos, writing indicates thought.
Writing even in journals can be helpful with that, when a person does
go back and read what she wrote weeks or months or years earlier.
Writing on this list can be like shining a magic light on phrase and
thought because so many here have spent years having people come and
say something, and then deny they said it; see their words and deny
they meant it; and then work through to seeing that they were thinking
it but wish they weren't. That might not be so in this case, but just
in case it might, you could look at these pages, maybe.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
made before I had my son. It is important to him. He draws that line
all the time. His boy-ness is very important to him. -=-
Just because he "draws the line" about gender doesn't mean you have to
go there with him.
But maybe you could talk to him about that, if he's talking about his
boy-ness. Talk to him about how it might be different if he had a
twin sister--or if one of his sisters had a twin brother. It might be
a fun conversation just in general, but you could learn more about how
he sees the differences.
-=-I can't stress to you enough the importance of gender neutrality in
my life. -=-
Stressing it to us won't change anything. It does already seem that
you're either expecting him to be more girlish, or that you're seeing
him as the single male in the group while your husband is working, and
that comes from the phrases you yourself chose and wrote and posted.
Sometimes people write without realizing what they've written but
outside of typos, writing indicates thought.
Writing even in journals can be helpful with that, when a person does
go back and read what she wrote weeks or months or years earlier.
Writing on this list can be like shining a magic light on phrase and
thought because so many here have spent years having people come and
say something, and then deny they said it; see their words and deny
they meant it; and then work through to seeing that they were thinking
it but wish they weren't. That might not be so in this case, but just
in case it might, you could look at these pages, maybe.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]