question about classes
Bean
I am newly subscribed to the list, though my partner has subscribed for
several months so I've been reading the postings through his email. We are
homeschooling our 6 year old.
I have a question about classes. How common is it for unschoolers to enroll
their children in some/any of the plethora of formal classes for
homeschoolers that are offered throughout the school year (I say "school
year" because around here, these classes seem to run on a Sept-June
schedule)?
We have History and language and other such courses in our area (the ones I
am speaking of are all advertised as being formally Instructed with "must be
able to sit for 30 minutes of instruction" (that is literally what one
description said) and/or read-the-textbook-and-discuss-in-class type
requirements) that are being quickly filled up by 5-9 year old children
whose families identify as unschoolers - and this surprised me.
I haven't signed my daughter up as she hasn't expressed interest in joining.
Thus far she prefers to learn by interacting with other children and adults
in a variety of environments, or engaging in dialogue with learned, wise
people, or simply exploring and experimenting according to her own interests
- she's never been Instructed on a particular subject as part of a class
group. But she may express interest in classes in the future - and so I am
wondering how young children (under age 10 or so) who have been trusted as
the leaders of their own learning-life (as my daughter has) fare when part
of a sit still, be quiet, listen-to-the-teacher, Instructed type
environment. Does it just depend on the child's personality and commitment
to the class experience and such? Does Instruction in that manner conflict
with the unschooling philosophy (and if so, how do you reconcile that)?
Maybe I am missing something here, and Instruction is just an accepted part
of life - unschooling or otherwise. But somehow I cannot settle my mind on
how it all fits together.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
several months so I've been reading the postings through his email. We are
homeschooling our 6 year old.
I have a question about classes. How common is it for unschoolers to enroll
their children in some/any of the plethora of formal classes for
homeschoolers that are offered throughout the school year (I say "school
year" because around here, these classes seem to run on a Sept-June
schedule)?
We have History and language and other such courses in our area (the ones I
am speaking of are all advertised as being formally Instructed with "must be
able to sit for 30 minutes of instruction" (that is literally what one
description said) and/or read-the-textbook-and-discuss-in-class type
requirements) that are being quickly filled up by 5-9 year old children
whose families identify as unschoolers - and this surprised me.
I haven't signed my daughter up as she hasn't expressed interest in joining.
Thus far she prefers to learn by interacting with other children and adults
in a variety of environments, or engaging in dialogue with learned, wise
people, or simply exploring and experimenting according to her own interests
- she's never been Instructed on a particular subject as part of a class
group. But she may express interest in classes in the future - and so I am
wondering how young children (under age 10 or so) who have been trusted as
the leaders of their own learning-life (as my daughter has) fare when part
of a sit still, be quiet, listen-to-the-teacher, Instructed type
environment. Does it just depend on the child's personality and commitment
to the class experience and such? Does Instruction in that manner conflict
with the unschooling philosophy (and if so, how do you reconcile that)?
Maybe I am missing something here, and Instruction is just an accepted part
of life - unschooling or otherwise. But somehow I cannot settle my mind on
how it all fits together.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Bean wrote:
badly someone wants what they'll get from the class and what other
options they have.
Kathryn enjoyed art and a few writing classes she took mostly to
experience what other kids were creating. The classes that worked best
had teachers that provided opportunities to explore an idea. Ones that
didn't work so well had an agenda of skills they wanted to pour into
the kids.
There isn't a generalization someone can make about unschooled kids in
classes. If a child wants to take a class for the first time and she's
never had group experience, it would help to give her a rundown of
what it will be like and what may be expected -- just as she might
appreciate a heads up on expectations for a wedding or a first stage
play or formal dinner where there are unwritten rules of behavior.
definition out in the world and many people use unschooling to mean
various forms of less schoolish learning.
Moms can easily say they're unschooling but still have one foot in
school, looking for classes to fill their kids' lives with interesting
activities because they don't trust their kids' interests or
themselves to find interesting things. Classes work best when they're
an addition to a rich unschooling life rather than foundation stones.
(Of course it depends on the child's learning style and personality
so, again, there aren't generalizations.)
It helps to break from the schoolish mindset to first look at loads of
other ways to explore interests and put classes way down on the list.
Until someone is confident learning is a process of self discovery and
exploration, classes can be a crutch that gets in the way of
unschooling.
Bottom line is if the child enjoys the class, has the option of not
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I amYes, it depends on personality and learning style. It depends on how
> wondering how young children (under age 10 or so) who have been
> trusted as
> the leaders of their own learning-life (as my daughter has) fare
> when part
> of a sit still, be quiet, listen-to-the-teacher, Instructed type
> environment. Does it just depend on the child's personality and
> commitment
> to the class experience and such?
badly someone wants what they'll get from the class and what other
options they have.
Kathryn enjoyed art and a few writing classes she took mostly to
experience what other kids were creating. The classes that worked best
had teachers that provided opportunities to explore an idea. Ones that
didn't work so well had an agenda of skills they wanted to pour into
the kids.
There isn't a generalization someone can make about unschooled kids in
classes. If a child wants to take a class for the first time and she's
never had group experience, it would help to give her a rundown of
what it will be like and what may be expected -- just as she might
appreciate a heads up on expectations for a wedding or a first stage
play or formal dinner where there are unwritten rules of behavior.
> Does Instruction in that manner conflictIt also depends on how someone defines unschooling. There isn't a set
> with the unschooling philosophy (and if so, how do you reconcile
> that)?
definition out in the world and many people use unschooling to mean
various forms of less schoolish learning.
Moms can easily say they're unschooling but still have one foot in
school, looking for classes to fill their kids' lives with interesting
activities because they don't trust their kids' interests or
themselves to find interesting things. Classes work best when they're
an addition to a rich unschooling life rather than foundation stones.
(Of course it depends on the child's learning style and personality
so, again, there aren't generalizations.)
It helps to break from the schoolish mindset to first look at loads of
other ways to explore interests and put classes way down on the list.
Until someone is confident learning is a process of self discovery and
exploration, classes can be a crutch that gets in the way of
unschooling.
Bottom line is if the child enjoys the class, has the option of not
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have a question about classes. How common is it for unschoolers
to enroll
their children in some/any of the plethora of formal classes for
homeschoolers that are offered throughout the school year (I say "school
year" because around here, these classes seem to run on a Sept-June
schedule)? -=-
Karate or ballet, yeah.
History or language, no.
That's my opinion, which I could detail at length...OH wait! I
have! :-)
I could bring a few links, but I think this one might be the best:
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
If a child thinks others taught him, he will wait for others to teach
him more.
If a child knows he can learn (to read, in this example), he will
*know* he can learn other things.
-=-Does it just depend on the child's personality and commitment
to the class experience and such? Does Instruction in that manner
conflict
with the unschooling philosophy (and if so, how do you reconcile
that)? -=-
I think parents put their children in those classes because the
parents don't think it will hurt anything.
I suspect most of those children will end up in school, because the
parent never really stepped away from it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to enroll
their children in some/any of the plethora of formal classes for
homeschoolers that are offered throughout the school year (I say "school
year" because around here, these classes seem to run on a Sept-June
schedule)? -=-
Karate or ballet, yeah.
History or language, no.
That's my opinion, which I could detail at length...OH wait! I
have! :-)
I could bring a few links, but I think this one might be the best:
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
If a child thinks others taught him, he will wait for others to teach
him more.
If a child knows he can learn (to read, in this example), he will
*know* he can learn other things.
-=-Does it just depend on the child's personality and commitment
to the class experience and such? Does Instruction in that manner
conflict
with the unschooling philosophy (and if so, how do you reconcile
that)? -=-
I think parents put their children in those classes because the
parents don't think it will hurt anything.
I suspect most of those children will end up in school, because the
parent never really stepped away from it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Bottom line is if the child enjoys the class, has the option of not
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.-=-
I think it's good for older kids, but not so much for younger ones.
Kelly Lovejoy wrote something about this:
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages
I agree with Joyce that there are unschoolers who think we're crazy
here; that's why this is called "radical unschooling," and some others
say "unschooling" and put their kids in classes, or teach them math or
reading.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.-=-
I think it's good for older kids, but not so much for younger ones.
Kelly Lovejoy wrote something about this:
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages
I agree with Joyce that there are unschoolers who think we're crazy
here; that's why this is called "radical unschooling," and some others
say "unschooling" and put their kids in classes, or teach them math or
reading.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My 8 year old has been doing a co-op for a couple of years.
When he was 6 he had a huge need to be around other kids.
We picked this co-op because the classes are Lego, Art,
Literature through theater and Chess.
Its not the my ideal class set up but he has enjoyed going.
There is another in town that teaches English, Math and other subjects.
This one they do arts and crafts, Lego projects , play chess with each other or
as a group
and listen to books and poems.
I just ask him if he wants to go this year and he says he wants. Its like 2-3
times a month for
3 hours. He does not need to go every time and sometimes he chooses to stay
home.
He has done Taekwon Do, basketball, programs with other homeschoolers at nature
centers,
some with his cub scout den ( just did some astronomy class last week).
He gets to decide if he wants to do them and I tell him what it is all going to
be about.
Some he does , like the co-op and cub scout, with his group of friends and more
for being with them.
We also do many other things to fulfill his need of being with his friends.
This is a kid that learned to read without any classes or anyone "teaching "
him.
He feels very confident about himself and that he can learn.
My nephew went to pre-school, kindergarten and a couple of months of 1st grade.
It was a disaster and he is still healing from all of it. Going to any kind of
classes is the last thing he
wanted for a long time. He just started asking for Karate classes after almost a
year of homeschooling/unschooling.
We are much more likely to go to a program where they offer to talk about the
history of something like this one:
<<<" EVENT DESCRIPTION: A 90-minute narrated cruise on the Minneapolis Queen, a
and the paddle boat. Best if you are not going with the expectations that
they will learning history of anything. Go for the fun and opportunity.
We went to see the replicas of Pinta and Nina , two of the caravels of
Christopher Columbus . We talked a little about it.
I answered any questions. My son read some of the signs and listen to a crew
member talk about
how it must have been to cross the Atlantic in those small boats carrying even
horses in it!
No expectations. All about fun. I wanted to see them as they were made in Brazil
and one was used in the movie 1492: Conquest of Paradise by Ridley Scott.
I know I learned a lot of things I did not know at all. Like Santa Maria ran
aground in her fist trip and much more.
We have a really nice group of homeschooling parents and kids that are trying to
put together a co-op. I have a vision and a couple of parents have the vision
of history classes. They have said that the kids will have to sit down for 30
minutes to show respect to whoever prepared the classes. I have told them my
position and that if my son wants to sit he will but if he does not he can
choose not to.
I have gotten an e-mail going on and on about how we must teach our kids to
listen even if they do not want to.
Here is what it says:
<<<" We need to teach that even if you are not fully interested you need to
respect other peoples ideas or thoughts and this is a great way of doing so,
It's not asking alot of any individual and for someone who puts any work into
preparing a presentation it will have a great effect if everyone is respectful
enough to listen to thier ideas, to not do so is teaching our children that only
thier ideas warrent merit and this will be adverse to them as young adults
moving into the workplace, or college, or ever relationships with others.">>>
That was all because I said if a "class" was offered my son could pick and
choose if he wanted to
attend. I also said we should have other activities for kids not interested or
too young for whatever was offered that day.
This parent wanted commitment that all kids should just go to all classes
offered and sit down and listen.
As you can see it may be hard to make it work with such a diverse group.
A couple of parents also do not consider programs like the one above as
educational enough.
I got cut out for talking about Field Trips to State Parks and Nature Centers.
Even those we only go if we are interested and think we will enjoy.
I sent the group many links about how children learn best and best learning
environments , not uschooling links.
I hope people take the time to read it but since I heard this parents , that
used to call themselves unschoolers, have apparently
decided to follow "The Well Trained Mind" I don't think they will.
Here is another link that helps people understand that teaching is not the same
as learning.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching/
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When he was 6 he had a huge need to be around other kids.
We picked this co-op because the classes are Lego, Art,
Literature through theater and Chess.
Its not the my ideal class set up but he has enjoyed going.
There is another in town that teaches English, Math and other subjects.
This one they do arts and crafts, Lego projects , play chess with each other or
as a group
and listen to books and poems.
I just ask him if he wants to go this year and he says he wants. Its like 2-3
times a month for
3 hours. He does not need to go every time and sometimes he chooses to stay
home.
He has done Taekwon Do, basketball, programs with other homeschoolers at nature
centers,
some with his cub scout den ( just did some astronomy class last week).
He gets to decide if he wants to do them and I tell him what it is all going to
be about.
Some he does , like the co-op and cub scout, with his group of friends and more
for being with them.
We also do many other things to fulfill his need of being with his friends.
This is a kid that learned to read without any classes or anyone "teaching "
him.
He feels very confident about himself and that he can learn.
My nephew went to pre-school, kindergarten and a couple of months of 1st grade.
It was a disaster and he is still healing from all of it. Going to any kind of
classes is the last thing he
wanted for a long time. He just started asking for Karate classes after almost a
year of homeschooling/unschooling.
We are much more likely to go to a program where they offer to talk about the
history of something like this one:
<<<" EVENT DESCRIPTION: A 90-minute narrated cruise on the Minneapolis Queen, a
> 78-foot state-of-the-art replica paddlewheeler, as it travels through historicIt may interest my kid and it may not. IT would be fun just go for the sites
> downtown Minneapolis and the *Upper Saint Anthony Falls Lock and Dam.* We
>depart
>
> from Boom Island Park in the heart of the historic Minneapolis Riverfront
> District. ">>>
and the paddle boat. Best if you are not going with the expectations that
they will learning history of anything. Go for the fun and opportunity.
We went to see the replicas of Pinta and Nina , two of the caravels of
Christopher Columbus . We talked a little about it.
I answered any questions. My son read some of the signs and listen to a crew
member talk about
how it must have been to cross the Atlantic in those small boats carrying even
horses in it!
No expectations. All about fun. I wanted to see them as they were made in Brazil
and one was used in the movie 1492: Conquest of Paradise by Ridley Scott.
I know I learned a lot of things I did not know at all. Like Santa Maria ran
aground in her fist trip and much more.
We have a really nice group of homeschooling parents and kids that are trying to
put together a co-op. I have a vision and a couple of parents have the vision
of history classes. They have said that the kids will have to sit down for 30
minutes to show respect to whoever prepared the classes. I have told them my
position and that if my son wants to sit he will but if he does not he can
choose not to.
I have gotten an e-mail going on and on about how we must teach our kids to
listen even if they do not want to.
Here is what it says:
<<<" We need to teach that even if you are not fully interested you need to
respect other peoples ideas or thoughts and this is a great way of doing so,
It's not asking alot of any individual and for someone who puts any work into
preparing a presentation it will have a great effect if everyone is respectful
enough to listen to thier ideas, to not do so is teaching our children that only
thier ideas warrent merit and this will be adverse to them as young adults
moving into the workplace, or college, or ever relationships with others.">>>
That was all because I said if a "class" was offered my son could pick and
choose if he wanted to
attend. I also said we should have other activities for kids not interested or
too young for whatever was offered that day.
This parent wanted commitment that all kids should just go to all classes
offered and sit down and listen.
As you can see it may be hard to make it work with such a diverse group.
A couple of parents also do not consider programs like the one above as
educational enough.
I got cut out for talking about Field Trips to State Parks and Nature Centers.
Even those we only go if we are interested and think we will enjoy.
I sent the group many links about how children learn best and best learning
environments , not uschooling links.
I hope people take the time to read it but since I heard this parents , that
used to call themselves unschoolers, have apparently
decided to follow "The Well Trained Mind" I don't think they will.
Here is another link that helps people understand that teaching is not the same
as learning.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching/
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
there's an article by alfie kohn - not an unschooling proponent at all - but still, he details the research about how *teaching* a child a method actually undermines the benefits of exploring it themselves, so doing both is actually not better than just letting them explore - much like the proverbial one rotten apple in a barrel spoiling the whole barrel - the article is called "educations's rotten apple". it's something unschoolers know already, but it's nice to have "outside" evidence, too, for some people, of the research variety.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 5:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] question about classes
-=-Bottom line is if the child enjoys the class, has the option of not
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.-=-
I think it's good for older kids, but not so much for younger ones.>>
I agree, and as my kids have gotten older, *they* have gravitated toward classes - actually, they weren't even interested in ballet and karate type classes (as you suggested in your other post, sandra) until recently. this year my 12 year old (now 11) has taken jujitsu, pottery and woodworking. pottery is the one that has lasted longer than 6 months and he plans to continue. the others were great experiences. last year, he *thought* he wanted to take some more "academic" classes at our local home education resource center, but opted out at the last minute and I think he was right to do so - still it wasn't math or science - it was more anthropological/discussion based classes. but too didactic for him, to get nearly as much out of them, as he would get out of, say, a conversation at home, or with a friend, or from a book. he has recently started reading "people's history of the world" on his own, as well as huff post articles, and science news magazines, and he talks about and explores things he's read with us. that's one kid, with his unique questions and ideas getting to have 2 parents as a sounding board for ideas - much much different than a class, with structure, and external expectations from a "teacher" to whom he's not connected and a bunch of other kids whose parents might have other ideas about the reasons their kids are there, etc.
my daughter is old enough now (15) to do adult activities and to not have to experience the adult teacher - child student divide that has long driven her crazy. so she's just enrolled in an acrobatics/trapeze class she's excited about, and last year she took a community college psychology class, in which she revealed her age on the last day as part of her final presentation. unfortunately, the community college requires students under 16 to get instructor permission for every class in which they wish to enroll, and many instructors will not give it so she's decided to wait til she's 16 to explore more CC classes. she has been learning spanish with rosetta stone at home, in anticipation of her trip to south america with other unschoolers this winter, and also is always working on a novel - when she finishes one, she starts another. the classes available to her would be *limiting* of her interests and activities, not expanding, so she's got even less interest in home school "schools" than my son, who has almost none
that makes my kids sound really busy and accomplished, but from an outside view, without an unschooler's eye, they'd probably look just the opposite. "learning" 6 hours a day in school, though, is really just being taught for maybe a couple hours (70 minutes average of instruction time, I read) and not necessarily learning much of anything. when we really recognize how our kids are learning every moment, even when they're not learning spanish or writing a novel or reading about history or science, that's when unschooling really clicks, in my experience. I listed all those things to give an impression of how formal classes are not necessary for what looks like more formal learning, for older kids. but the many many more moments and hours spent playing, dreaming, joking, watching t.v., etc. are truly just as valuable as learning experiences, and they all inform each other.
when they were 6, 7, 8 - we weren't home schooling or unschooling, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt they learned nothing in school/classes that couldn't have been more easily and comfortably learned at home. in most cases, unschooling goes more smoothly when parents spend the time the kids would be in classes doing fun, engaging stuff *with* them that has nothing obvious to do with academics at all.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 5:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] question about classes
-=-Bottom line is if the child enjoys the class, has the option of not
going, has other ways to explore an interest -- though in some cases
like martial arts and ceramics a class is probably the best option --
then they fit in just fine with unschooling.-=-
I think it's good for older kids, but not so much for younger ones.>>
I agree, and as my kids have gotten older, *they* have gravitated toward classes - actually, they weren't even interested in ballet and karate type classes (as you suggested in your other post, sandra) until recently. this year my 12 year old (now 11) has taken jujitsu, pottery and woodworking. pottery is the one that has lasted longer than 6 months and he plans to continue. the others were great experiences. last year, he *thought* he wanted to take some more "academic" classes at our local home education resource center, but opted out at the last minute and I think he was right to do so - still it wasn't math or science - it was more anthropological/discussion based classes. but too didactic for him, to get nearly as much out of them, as he would get out of, say, a conversation at home, or with a friend, or from a book. he has recently started reading "people's history of the world" on his own, as well as huff post articles, and science news magazines, and he talks about and explores things he's read with us. that's one kid, with his unique questions and ideas getting to have 2 parents as a sounding board for ideas - much much different than a class, with structure, and external expectations from a "teacher" to whom he's not connected and a bunch of other kids whose parents might have other ideas about the reasons their kids are there, etc.
my daughter is old enough now (15) to do adult activities and to not have to experience the adult teacher - child student divide that has long driven her crazy. so she's just enrolled in an acrobatics/trapeze class she's excited about, and last year she took a community college psychology class, in which she revealed her age on the last day as part of her final presentation. unfortunately, the community college requires students under 16 to get instructor permission for every class in which they wish to enroll, and many instructors will not give it so she's decided to wait til she's 16 to explore more CC classes. she has been learning spanish with rosetta stone at home, in anticipation of her trip to south america with other unschoolers this winter, and also is always working on a novel - when she finishes one, she starts another. the classes available to her would be *limiting* of her interests and activities, not expanding, so she's got even less interest in home school "schools" than my son, who has almost none
that makes my kids sound really busy and accomplished, but from an outside view, without an unschooler's eye, they'd probably look just the opposite. "learning" 6 hours a day in school, though, is really just being taught for maybe a couple hours (70 minutes average of instruction time, I read) and not necessarily learning much of anything. when we really recognize how our kids are learning every moment, even when they're not learning spanish or writing a novel or reading about history or science, that's when unschooling really clicks, in my experience. I listed all those things to give an impression of how formal classes are not necessary for what looks like more formal learning, for older kids. but the many many more moments and hours spent playing, dreaming, joking, watching t.v., etc. are truly just as valuable as learning experiences, and they all inform each other.
when they were 6, 7, 8 - we weren't home schooling or unschooling, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt they learned nothing in school/classes that couldn't have been more easily and comfortably learned at home. in most cases, unschooling goes more smoothly when parents spend the time the kids would be in classes doing fun, engaging stuff *with* them that has nothing obvious to do with academics at all.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I have a vision and a couple of parents have the vision
of history classes. They have said that the kids will have to sit down
for 30
minutes to show respect to whoever prepared the classes.-=-
Huh.
"Respect" they said?
I do conference presentations. I've never locked the doors. If
someone gets up and leaves, that's fine. They probably have kids out
there. They might need the bathroom. Maybe they just popped in to
see if they'd rather hear me or the speaker next door.
If I'm interesting and fun, more people will stay.
If I'm boring, more people will leave.
Same with those who prepare a history class for little homeschooled
kids.
Respect should be earned.
The other person who wrote to Alex... "...and for someone who puts
any work into
preparing a presentation it will have a great effect if everyone is
respectful
enough to listen to thier ideas, to not do so is teaching our children
that only
thier ideas warrent merit and this will be adverse to them as young
adults
moving into the workplace, or college, or ever relationships with
others."
OH? I think that is an error.
Marty's off at his first-ever college class. I bet he will be paying
more attention than anyone else in that room. I would bet cash
money. Why? Because he has never, ever been "made" to sit and listen
quietly against his will. IF he stays for that full class, it will be
entirely because he wanted to. Most of the others have been
"trained" to sit until the bell rings (and it being college, it might
be the first time for some of them NOT to hear a bell at the end).
Most of the others have learned to zone out and hear only what might
be on the test, or what sounds crucial to getting a good grade. My
son has none of that training or "respect."
-=-This parent wanted commitment that all kids should just go to all
classes
offered and sit down and listen.-=-
That parent wants school. A school that SHE controls.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of history classes. They have said that the kids will have to sit down
for 30
minutes to show respect to whoever prepared the classes.-=-
Huh.
"Respect" they said?
I do conference presentations. I've never locked the doors. If
someone gets up and leaves, that's fine. They probably have kids out
there. They might need the bathroom. Maybe they just popped in to
see if they'd rather hear me or the speaker next door.
If I'm interesting and fun, more people will stay.
If I'm boring, more people will leave.
Same with those who prepare a history class for little homeschooled
kids.
Respect should be earned.
The other person who wrote to Alex... "...and for someone who puts
any work into
preparing a presentation it will have a great effect if everyone is
respectful
enough to listen to thier ideas, to not do so is teaching our children
that only
thier ideas warrent merit and this will be adverse to them as young
adults
moving into the workplace, or college, or ever relationships with
others."
OH? I think that is an error.
Marty's off at his first-ever college class. I bet he will be paying
more attention than anyone else in that room. I would bet cash
money. Why? Because he has never, ever been "made" to sit and listen
quietly against his will. IF he stays for that full class, it will be
entirely because he wanted to. Most of the others have been
"trained" to sit until the bell rings (and it being college, it might
be the first time for some of them NOT to hear a bell at the end).
Most of the others have learned to zone out and hear only what might
be on the test, or what sounds crucial to getting a good grade. My
son has none of that training or "respect."
-=-This parent wanted commitment that all kids should just go to all
classes
offered and sit down and listen.-=-
That parent wants school. A school that SHE controls.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I agree with Joyce that there are unschoolers who think we're crazy
here; that's why this is called "radical unschooling," and some others
say "unschooling" and put their kids in classes, or teach them math or
reading.***
I've heard people say that the will unschool once the kids have learned the
basics, math, reading, and writing. I never really understood that reasoning.
It seems backwards to me. If kids are taught how to read and how to do math
and how to write, they lose one of the most wonderful aspects of unschooling,
the child's own sense of knowing that they can. Without ever having discussed
this with Chamille, she herself told me that she learned how to read, well
actually, she said she taught herself how to read, and that because she found
she could do that, she knew she could do or learn anything.
It always made more sense when parents would say they'd unschool in the early
years and then send them to school. I like unschooling the whole way, but I do
understand why some kids go to school when they get older.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
here; that's why this is called "radical unschooling," and some others
say "unschooling" and put their kids in classes, or teach them math or
reading.***
I've heard people say that the will unschool once the kids have learned the
basics, math, reading, and writing. I never really understood that reasoning.
It seems backwards to me. If kids are taught how to read and how to do math
and how to write, they lose one of the most wonderful aspects of unschooling,
the child's own sense of knowing that they can. Without ever having discussed
this with Chamille, she herself told me that she learned how to read, well
actually, she said she taught herself how to read, and that because she found
she could do that, she knew she could do or learn anything.
It always made more sense when parents would say they'd unschool in the early
years and then send them to school. I like unschooling the whole way, but I do
understand why some kids go to school when they get older.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Maybe Lyla's kids would have been OK with doing classes when they were younger
if they been unschooled all their lives, maybe not.
It all depends. Kids that have been schooled most likely have a different way of
relating to classes at least until they are fully deschooled.
My son never had to go to classes. He can sign up and decide not to if
he does not like it or it is not want he had in mind.
When he wants to do something I also do not automatically think about classes as
a way to help him achieve or learn what he wants.
There is so much we can do. He knows he learns so much everyday just from living
a full life with lots of opportunities.
Just last week my 4 year old , who has been really interested in reading , told
me she is going to learn to read by watching
Blues Clues.
Last Spring she asked to do ballet classes. I signed her up and she did not want
to go.
At the health club that we go ( more like a huge country club/health club/family
place ) all those things
are available and they can try out a class and choose to stay or not.
She has asked again. Maybe she will try this time.
We have bought her tutus and we dance at home a lot.
Another thing I have noticed is that many parents say they want to unschool when
their kids are young and when they hit 5-6 years old they
just change totally and go on to buy curricula and much more.
They no longer trust children will learn or maybe they never really understood
unschooling at all. Plus some need to be able to boast to everyone how their
kids are doing this and that.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
if they been unschooled all their lives, maybe not.
It all depends. Kids that have been schooled most likely have a different way of
relating to classes at least until they are fully deschooled.
My son never had to go to classes. He can sign up and decide not to if
he does not like it or it is not want he had in mind.
When he wants to do something I also do not automatically think about classes as
a way to help him achieve or learn what he wants.
There is so much we can do. He knows he learns so much everyday just from living
a full life with lots of opportunities.
Just last week my 4 year old , who has been really interested in reading , told
me she is going to learn to read by watching
Blues Clues.
Last Spring she asked to do ballet classes. I signed her up and she did not want
to go.
At the health club that we go ( more like a huge country club/health club/family
place ) all those things
are available and they can try out a class and choose to stay or not.
She has asked again. Maybe she will try this time.
We have bought her tutus and we dance at home a lot.
Another thing I have noticed is that many parents say they want to unschool when
their kids are young and when they hit 5-6 years old they
just change totally and go on to buy curricula and much more.
They no longer trust children will learn or maybe they never really understood
unschooling at all. Plus some need to be able to boast to everyone how their
kids are doing this and that.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
oh for sure - my daughter did classes when she wanted (and tae kwon do was one of them - for years, til she got her black belt), before she started school (dance and tumbling) and during the time she was in school too. my son, not so much. he did tae kwon do/jujitsu for a couple years, but other than that had no interest in classes - from before he was in school, more based on his temperament.
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] question about classes
Maybe Lyla's kids would have been OK with doing classes when they were younger
if they been unschooled all their lives, maybe not.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] question about classes
Maybe Lyla's kids would have been OK with doing classes when they were younger
if they been unschooled all their lives, maybe not.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
My kids generally have always liked to go to one-time talks - ranger
talks at state and national parks or science talks at museums. They've
always been pretty happy listening for an hour or so, even when they
were young - maybe after 6 or 7 years old. We also went on tours with
docents. But - we always bailed if it wasn't well done - except one time
I remember we got stuck in an awfully boring observatory talk at a local
college - we couldn't get out because it was pitch dark and we would
have had to climb over lots of people to get out. When the lights came
on - 3/4 of the audience had slipped away.
But- anyway - lectures always sounded like fun to them because I had
always pretty much found ones that I thought would be fun and steered
away from ones I thought would be boring. We went to see some of their
favorite book authors speak - Brian Jaques (Redwall books) was
fantastic, for example. We also saw Jim Weiss tell stories, but also
talk about storytelling, a few times. The kids were big fans, so that
was fun for them.
So - my kids actually had a lot of experience of sitting in a group or
audience and "listening." But never was it like school - they always had
the choice to slip out and there were no tests or anything like that.
Today was the first day of college for Rosie and first day of grad
school for Roya. Both called me all excited about their classes. Roya is
getting a degree in counseling and she said they did all kinds of
ice-breaking games. Rosie has a deaf teacher for two of her classes - he
has an interpreter in one class and not in the other (where students are
supposed to know how to sign). Rox is in the middle of summer school at
her university - tomorrow her "History of Cuisine" class is cooking
together - she is making ratatouille.
College, at least, can be a lot more than sitting and listening to
boring lectures, taking tests, and getting grades. These days with
websites like "RateMyProfessor" students can be more selective, too,
about their teachers. But most students come into college with really
negative feelings about school and it makes it even more difficult for
them to find and appreciate the cool side of it. Unschooled kids can, if
they decide to, tolerate the boring stuff in order to get the cool stuff.
-pam
talks at state and national parks or science talks at museums. They've
always been pretty happy listening for an hour or so, even when they
were young - maybe after 6 or 7 years old. We also went on tours with
docents. But - we always bailed if it wasn't well done - except one time
I remember we got stuck in an awfully boring observatory talk at a local
college - we couldn't get out because it was pitch dark and we would
have had to climb over lots of people to get out. When the lights came
on - 3/4 of the audience had slipped away.
But- anyway - lectures always sounded like fun to them because I had
always pretty much found ones that I thought would be fun and steered
away from ones I thought would be boring. We went to see some of their
favorite book authors speak - Brian Jaques (Redwall books) was
fantastic, for example. We also saw Jim Weiss tell stories, but also
talk about storytelling, a few times. The kids were big fans, so that
was fun for them.
So - my kids actually had a lot of experience of sitting in a group or
audience and "listening." But never was it like school - they always had
the choice to slip out and there were no tests or anything like that.
Today was the first day of college for Rosie and first day of grad
school for Roya. Both called me all excited about their classes. Roya is
getting a degree in counseling and she said they did all kinds of
ice-breaking games. Rosie has a deaf teacher for two of her classes - he
has an interpreter in one class and not in the other (where students are
supposed to know how to sign). Rox is in the middle of summer school at
her university - tomorrow her "History of Cuisine" class is cooking
together - she is making ratatouille.
College, at least, can be a lot more than sitting and listening to
boring lectures, taking tests, and getting grades. These days with
websites like "RateMyProfessor" students can be more selective, too,
about their teachers. But most students come into college with really
negative feelings about school and it makes it even more difficult for
them to find and appreciate the cool side of it. Unschooled kids can, if
they decide to, tolerate the boring stuff in order to get the cool stuff.
-pam