Special needs and unschooling
Michal
My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure? I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
wtexans
===He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer?===
My son did that quite a bit when he first began to write letters and numbers. Even now, at 12, when he's handwriting certain letters or numbers, he will write them backwards sometimes (not all the time). I don't worry about it because he reads and recognizes numbers just fine, and when he types things he knows exactly what those keys look like on the keyboard.
===I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?===
What is he wanting to know and what's in the way of him knowing it?
If he's wanting to write his name and he's happy with what he's doing, let it go. If, at some point, he recognizes that the way he's writing it doesn't look quite right and he asks for your help, you can print it with the letters facing the correct way and he can use that as a guide. But I wouldn't push that.
Glenda
My son did that quite a bit when he first began to write letters and numbers. Even now, at 12, when he's handwriting certain letters or numbers, he will write them backwards sometimes (not all the time). I don't worry about it because he reads and recognizes numbers just fine, and when he types things he knows exactly what those keys look like on the keyboard.
===I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?===
What is he wanting to know and what's in the way of him knowing it?
If he's wanting to write his name and he's happy with what he's doing, let it go. If, at some point, he recognizes that the way he's writing it doesn't look quite right and he asks for your help, you can print it with the letters facing the correct way and he can use that as a guide. But I wouldn't push that.
Glenda
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect
dyslexia.-=-
It is normal, and if you start suspecting or looking for "conditions"
to go with what he already has been labelled, your unschooling will
slip away.
-=-what do you do when there is something in the way of your child
learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
-=-
Stop thinking of it that way. If there is something they cannot
learn, then they're not ready yet. Pulling a plant out of the ground
to look at its roots does NOT help the plant grow.
There are millions of things you could do, see, taste, touch, listen
to, see, talk about that don't require writing left to right. If he
doesn't read or write for many years, so what?
If you look for ways and reasons to mess with the natural learning
process, you might never see it. You can hamper and inhibit it
rather than nurturing it, if you're not careful.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dyslexia.-=-
It is normal, and if you start suspecting or looking for "conditions"
to go with what he already has been labelled, your unschooling will
slip away.
-=-what do you do when there is something in the way of your child
learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
-=-
Stop thinking of it that way. If there is something they cannot
learn, then they're not ready yet. Pulling a plant out of the ground
to look at its roots does NOT help the plant grow.
There are millions of things you could do, see, taste, touch, listen
to, see, talk about that don't require writing left to right. If he
doesn't read or write for many years, so what?
If you look for ways and reasons to mess with the natural learning
process, you might never see it. You can hamper and inhibit it
rather than nurturing it, if you're not careful.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---- I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?----
This might sound harsh, and I don't mean it to be, but regardless of your son's diagnoses, your approach to unschooling should be the same: follow his lead. If he wants to learn to write his name other than the way he does now, show him. His writing backwards isn't a "problem" unless you believe it is. Don't "suspect" anything just yet, dyslexia or otherwise.
My daughter has a tic "disorder" as well. She would probably qualify for a Tourettes diagnoses as she's had a motor and vocal tic for the past three years, but her neurologist doesn't feel the need, since we don't feel the need, to pin a diagnoses on her. Sometimes it is pronounced, other times I'm the only one who notices. Every now and again, it goes away for a month or so. Whenever she's about to loose a tooth, swims in chlorinated pools, or is exposed to Strep, it is the worst.
One of the most important things I've learned about children and ticing is pressure and stress can make the tics more pronounced. Drawing attention to the tic makes it worse. If you read any of the forums for Tourettes and/or Tic disorders, you'll be asked to never, ever describe a tic, because for people who tic, simply reading about someone else's tic can make that same tic manifest.
I know it is hard to watch your child move uncontrollably. You're unschooling though. You can throw out the fear about what other kids will say and how he might be treated/teased in school. From our experience, most kids don't even notice when our dd tics, they just think it is something she does--it isn't a biggie, at all. And as far as she's concerned, sometimes ticing feels good, and more often than not, she doesn't even know she's doing it--unless, and this is key--I point it out.
The best thing, in my opinion, is to forget there is anything "special" as in "special needs" about your son.
Would I choose more structure because of Tourettes--hardly. I'd choose less! The more freedom he has, the more likely your son will be to feel confident, safe and secure being exactly who he is, instead of having to try to be some kind of kid he isn't.
----My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure? -----
This might sound harsh, and I don't mean it to be, but regardless of your son's diagnoses, your approach to unschooling should be the same: follow his lead. If he wants to learn to write his name other than the way he does now, show him. His writing backwards isn't a "problem" unless you believe it is. Don't "suspect" anything just yet, dyslexia or otherwise.
My daughter has a tic "disorder" as well. She would probably qualify for a Tourettes diagnoses as she's had a motor and vocal tic for the past three years, but her neurologist doesn't feel the need, since we don't feel the need, to pin a diagnoses on her. Sometimes it is pronounced, other times I'm the only one who notices. Every now and again, it goes away for a month or so. Whenever she's about to loose a tooth, swims in chlorinated pools, or is exposed to Strep, it is the worst.
One of the most important things I've learned about children and ticing is pressure and stress can make the tics more pronounced. Drawing attention to the tic makes it worse. If you read any of the forums for Tourettes and/or Tic disorders, you'll be asked to never, ever describe a tic, because for people who tic, simply reading about someone else's tic can make that same tic manifest.
I know it is hard to watch your child move uncontrollably. You're unschooling though. You can throw out the fear about what other kids will say and how he might be treated/teased in school. From our experience, most kids don't even notice when our dd tics, they just think it is something she does--it isn't a biggie, at all. And as far as she's concerned, sometimes ticing feels good, and more often than not, she doesn't even know she's doing it--unless, and this is key--I point it out.
The best thing, in my opinion, is to forget there is anything "special" as in "special needs" about your son.
Would I choose more structure because of Tourettes--hardly. I'd choose less! The more freedom he has, the more likely your son will be to feel confident, safe and secure being exactly who he is, instead of having to try to be some kind of kid he isn't.
----My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure? -----
Michal
I appreciate everyone's comments on this, and feel more confident in my approach. I have been mostly quite laid back in terms of his Tourettes, and we don't talk about it with him, because he does not talk about it with us. It just *is*. The mainstream approach is of course to draw attention to these things, go to a bazillion therapies and such. We have not done that. It never felt right. It is a question I had to ask though, because that tiny voice in my head tells me I cannot just do *nothing* about it. I don't want to be negligent. It's scary to break out of the mold. Hopefully anyone else who reads this and has this question in their head as well, can feel at more peace as well.
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
>
> ---- I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?----
>
> This might sound harsh, and I don't mean it to be, but regardless of your son's diagnoses, your approach to unschooling should be the same: follow his lead. If he wants to learn to write his name other than the way he does now, show him. His writing backwards isn't a "problem" unless you believe it is. Don't "suspect" anything just yet, dyslexia or otherwise.
>
> My daughter has a tic "disorder" as well. She would probably qualify for a Tourettes diagnoses as she's had a motor and vocal tic for the past three years, but her neurologist doesn't feel the need, since we don't feel the need, to pin a diagnoses on her. Sometimes it is pronounced, other times I'm the only one who notices. Every now and again, it goes away for a month or so. Whenever she's about to loose a tooth, swims in chlorinated pools, or is exposed to Strep, it is the worst.
>
> One of the most important things I've learned about children and ticing is pressure and stress can make the tics more pronounced. Drawing attention to the tic makes it worse. If you read any of the forums for Tourettes and/or Tic disorders, you'll be asked to never, ever describe a tic, because for people who tic, simply reading about someone else's tic can make that same tic manifest.
>
> I know it is hard to watch your child move uncontrollably. You're unschooling though. You can throw out the fear about what other kids will say and how he might be treated/teased in school. From our experience, most kids don't even notice when our dd tics, they just think it is something she does--it isn't a biggie, at all. And as far as she's concerned, sometimes ticing feels good, and more often than not, she doesn't even know she's doing it--unless, and this is key--I point it out.
>
> The best thing, in my opinion, is to forget there is anything "special" as in "special needs" about your son.
>
> Would I choose more structure because of Tourettes--hardly. I'd choose less! The more freedom he has, the more likely your son will be to feel confident, safe and secure being exactly who he is, instead of having to try to be some kind of kid he isn't.
>
> ----My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure? -----
>
Schuyler
Linnaea wrote backwards and didn't notice. It was beautiful. She wrote her name
backwards on the bathtub with bath crayons, couldn't see the difference. She's
10 now and writes fine and reads fine. She writes a lot, not by hand, lots of
on-line typing. She's working on a novel and is getting a bit excited about
NaNoWriMo.
Schuyler
________________________________
My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go
along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards.
Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you
let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more
structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure?
I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the
way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
backwards on the bathtub with bath crayons, couldn't see the difference. She's
10 now and writes fine and reads fine. She writes a lot, not by hand, lots of
on-line typing. She's working on a novel and is getting a bit excited about
NaNoWriMo.
Schuyler
________________________________
My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go
along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards.
Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you
let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more
structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure?
I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the
way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is a question I had to ask though, because that tiny voice in my
head tells me I cannot just do *nothing* about it. I don't want to be
negligent.-=-
That tiny voice in your head is probably not your own voice.
Most people have many "tiny voices" in their heads. Some people's
voices can be overwhelming and crippling.
You don't want to become a tiny voice in your son's head shaming him
for being ways he can't avoid. And even nicey-nice criticism or
reminders can come back for 20, 30, 50 years as "something is wrong
with you," in the little-voices gallery.
IF it's something he can fix through his own will or awareness, wait
until he's older.
If it's not something he can fix, when he's older you might help him
find coping mechanisms.
In school, teachers and other kids would likely crush him for it, but
he's NOT in school. The tiny voices that say "hurry up or it will be
too late" are very, very often afraid of school bullying.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
head tells me I cannot just do *nothing* about it. I don't want to be
negligent.-=-
That tiny voice in your head is probably not your own voice.
Most people have many "tiny voices" in their heads. Some people's
voices can be overwhelming and crippling.
You don't want to become a tiny voice in your son's head shaming him
for being ways he can't avoid. And even nicey-nice criticism or
reminders can come back for 20, 30, 50 years as "something is wrong
with you," in the little-voices gallery.
IF it's something he can fix through his own will or awareness, wait
until he's older.
If it's not something he can fix, when he's older you might help him
find coping mechanisms.
In school, teachers and other kids would likely crush him for it, but
he's NOT in school. The tiny voices that say "hurry up or it will be
too late" are very, very often afraid of school bullying.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"In school, teachers and other kids would likely crush him for it, but
he's NOT in school. The tiny voices that say "hurry up or it will be
too late" are very, very often afraid of school bullying.">>>
Most of us have heard and read that kids have a "window" of opportunity to learn
how
to read or they will never do it right or have serious problems.
Right now there are those commercials for a reading program for babies on TV
that play constantly and
articles like the one bellow that someone posted on Facebook yesterday:
http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/rocketscience0304.pdf
Unschooled children learn to read at all ages. There is only a problem if the
child is in school
or if the parent think there is a problem and turns it into one.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
he's NOT in school. The tiny voices that say "hurry up or it will be
too late" are very, very often afraid of school bullying.">>>
Most of us have heard and read that kids have a "window" of opportunity to learn
how
to read or they will never do it right or have serious problems.
Right now there are those commercials for a reading program for babies on TV
that play constantly and
articles like the one bellow that someone posted on Facebook yesterday:
http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/rocketscience0304.pdf
Unschooled children learn to read at all ages. There is only a problem if the
child is in school
or if the parent think there is a problem and turns it into one.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
The idea of "sensitive periods" has been pretty popular in education and psychology for a long time, and often confused with the idea of "critical" periods. I've heard soooo many parents and teachers say "if they don't learn it now it will be much harder later". That's something that has some validity in school, since there's a narrow window when certain skills are Taught and beyond that kids are often left to flounder And mocked by other kids.
Not only do many of those concerns fall by the wayside once you child isn't held up to an expectation of "normal", brain science is discovering that many more things that were thought to have "critical periods" - times when the brain "had to" learn certain skills or they wouldn't be learned - don't, and that people can go on learning into adulthood.
---Meredith
>> Most of us have heard and read that kids have a "window" of opportunity to learn how to read***********
The idea of "sensitive periods" has been pretty popular in education and psychology for a long time, and often confused with the idea of "critical" periods. I've heard soooo many parents and teachers say "if they don't learn it now it will be much harder later". That's something that has some validity in school, since there's a narrow window when certain skills are Taught and beyond that kids are often left to flounder And mocked by other kids.
Not only do many of those concerns fall by the wayside once you child isn't held up to an expectation of "normal", brain science is discovering that many more things that were thought to have "critical periods" - times when the brain "had to" learn certain skills or they wouldn't be learned - don't, and that people can go on learning into adulthood.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-The idea of "sensitive periods" has been pretty popular in
education and psychology for a long time, and often confused with the
idea of "critical" periods=-
So what's the difference?
There's something my husband sent to me yesterday that had (among
other things) a link to something about a biochemical/brain difference
between kids who are in daycare early and those who aren't.
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
I put it there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
education and psychology for a long time, and often confused with the
idea of "critical" periods=-
So what's the difference?
There's something my husband sent to me yesterday that had (among
other things) a link to something about a biochemical/brain difference
between kids who are in daycare early and those who aren't.
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
I put it there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cookiesforthree
I have Tourettes syndrome and OCD. I sure wish my folks would have allowed me to learn at home!! I endured so much teasing that it hindered my learning abilities in class and on the playground.
One of my sons might have a very mild case of Tourettes and we unschool him. Things are working out wonderfully. We just allow him to play and learn to handle his body and emotions on his time schedule. Any issues that come up that are upsetting, his family is right there to give him lots of hugs and love. Something I truly wish I had as a kids
I felt so alone at school. People shaking their bodies and laughing at me. Even people who are just scared and stare. In time, he will learn to deal with it all in his own stride. It's just so incredible helpful to have his family with him especially when he's little so he can have all the support that he won't get in school.
Meanwhile, I'm doing all my ticks and twitches!! LOL. Talking about Tourettes can make it worse.
Best wishes to you and your family,
Jen
One of my sons might have a very mild case of Tourettes and we unschool him. Things are working out wonderfully. We just allow him to play and learn to handle his body and emotions on his time schedule. Any issues that come up that are upsetting, his family is right there to give him lots of hugs and love. Something I truly wish I had as a kids
I felt so alone at school. People shaking their bodies and laughing at me. Even people who are just scared and stare. In time, he will learn to deal with it all in his own stride. It's just so incredible helpful to have his family with him especially when he's little so he can have all the support that he won't get in school.
Meanwhile, I'm doing all my ticks and twitches!! LOL. Talking about Tourettes can make it worse.
Best wishes to you and your family,
Jen
--- In [email protected], "Michal" <art_alexakis78@...> wrote:
>
> My son has been diagnosed with Tourettes, and some of the other things that go along with it. He is 6, and writes his name completely mirrored backwards. Perhaps that is a normal thing for a new writer? I suspect dyslexia. Would you let these things get in the way of an unschooling approach (being more structured)? Do I need be patient and watch it play out longer, I am not sure? I guess my bottom line question is what do you do when there is something in the way of your child learning something (that they themselves want to know)?
>
plaidpanties666
"Sensitive period" is a term coined by the Montessori movement to describe those times when kids are both biologically ready and all fired up to learn something - with young children that often coincides. A "critical period" is a time of brain development when, and only when, an infant or young child can learn that specific skill.
A classic example is sound discrimination - if you don't hear certain language sounds before a certain age you can't distinguish those sounds later in life. A person can learn a skill "later" than a sensitive period, but not a critical period - so, for instance a person can learn to speak and understand a second language after the sensitive period for language is past, but may not be physically able to hear and reproduce all the sounds in that language (so will hear and pronounce l and r the same or t and th the same).
But one of the upshots of the idea of "sensitive periods" - especially combined with the ways schools work - is a sort of cultural panic about "early learning".
---Meredith
A classic example is sound discrimination - if you don't hear certain language sounds before a certain age you can't distinguish those sounds later in life. A person can learn a skill "later" than a sensitive period, but not a critical period - so, for instance a person can learn to speak and understand a second language after the sensitive period for language is past, but may not be physically able to hear and reproduce all the sounds in that language (so will hear and pronounce l and r the same or t and th the same).
But one of the upshots of the idea of "sensitive periods" - especially combined with the ways schools work - is a sort of cultural panic about "early learning".
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
It's not so off topic, I don't think, if it's about natural learning.
-=-A person can learn a skill "later" than a sensitive period, but not
a critical period - so, for instance a person can learn to speak and
understand a second language after the sensitive period for language
is past, but may not be physically able to hear and reproduce all the
sounds in that language (so will hear and pronounce l and r the same
or t and th the same).-=-
So Helen Keller could learn to speak because she was hearing for the
first year and some of her life?
But someone who can't hear ever, can never speak?
-=-A classic example is sound discrimination - if you don't hear
certain language sounds before a certain age you can't distinguish
those sounds later in life.-=-
Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to very
young children?
What about people who do learn to speak without an accent? There
seems to be an "intelligence," or a talent, for hearing differences
and reproducing them, even in adults learning new languages.
Are there other examples than the sounds?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-A person can learn a skill "later" than a sensitive period, but not
a critical period - so, for instance a person can learn to speak and
understand a second language after the sensitive period for language
is past, but may not be physically able to hear and reproduce all the
sounds in that language (so will hear and pronounce l and r the same
or t and th the same).-=-
So Helen Keller could learn to speak because she was hearing for the
first year and some of her life?
But someone who can't hear ever, can never speak?
-=-A classic example is sound discrimination - if you don't hear
certain language sounds before a certain age you can't distinguish
those sounds later in life.-=-
Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to very
young children?
What about people who do learn to speak without an accent? There
seems to be an "intelligence," or a talent, for hearing differences
and reproducing them, even in adults learning new languages.
Are there other examples than the sounds?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
> Are there other examples than the sounds?Sensorimotor development in general - vision being the other biggie because we don't really study things like taste and smell discrimination. But the exciting thing is that this is all out of date - new research is showing that people Can learn sensorimotor skills later in life, even adults. A quick search shows me all the things I learned were facts in college are now "hypothoses", including sound discrimination.
The other big example that comes to mind is binocular focus, which was thought until very recently to be completely "done" developing in infancy or the toddler years. Turns out binocular focus can be learned by adults - NPR recently interviewed a woman who had learned in her 40s. That's great news for parents with kids with "lazy eye" and other such issues that are traditionally treated with surgery or eye-patches. There's a muuuuuch bigger window of opportunity to correct those problems, it turns out.
> Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to veryVery likely. Maybe they'll get the news and back off ;)
> young children?
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to
very young children?
-=-Very likely. Maybe they'll get the news and back off ;)-=-
But if Americans or any English speakers tell them to back off,
they'll suspect that we've switched the cups. And because they're
smarter than we are, they'll switch the cups back. And perhaps we
should prepare an antidote to... (I'm all confused. Partly because
I'm monolingual with splashes of bits of not-enough-to-use of a couple
of language, certainly NOT Chinese. So bilinguals outrank monos in
any discussion of language.)
Sandra, not the smartest person in the world...
Referring, vaguely, to The Princess Bride
Thinking, loosely, of the disadvantage of not knowing two languages,
but the advantage (in an English-learning world) of being a native
English speaker in this century, until some other language is tagged
"it" (as have been French and Italian and Latin in the past. Maybe
Spanish, largely, for a while, in some places).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
very young children?
-=-Very likely. Maybe they'll get the news and back off ;)-=-
But if Americans or any English speakers tell them to back off,
they'll suspect that we've switched the cups. And because they're
smarter than we are, they'll switch the cups back. And perhaps we
should prepare an antidote to... (I'm all confused. Partly because
I'm monolingual with splashes of bits of not-enough-to-use of a couple
of language, certainly NOT Chinese. So bilinguals outrank monos in
any discussion of language.)
Sandra, not the smartest person in the world...
Referring, vaguely, to The Princess Bride
Thinking, loosely, of the disadvantage of not knowing two languages,
but the advantage (in an English-learning world) of being a native
English speaker in this century, until some other language is tagged
"it" (as have been French and Italian and Latin in the past. Maybe
Spanish, largely, for a while, in some places).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<for instance a person can learn to speak and understand a second language
after the sensitive period for language is past, but may not be physically able
to hear and reproduce all the sounds in that language (so will hear and
pronounce l and r the same or t and th the same).>>>
I may not pronounce certain words correctly and have an accent but I can
certainly hear the sound and recognize it. It just takes more awareness.
I can definitely recognize my accent and how I pronounce stuff differently. It
does vary person to person.
My kids have listen to spoken Portuguese all their lives and still have an
accent when they speak Portuguese.
I know a few people who learned second languages as adults and have non or
almost no accent at all!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
after the sensitive period for language is past, but may not be physically able
to hear and reproduce all the sounds in that language (so will hear and
pronounce l and r the same or t and th the same).>>>
I may not pronounce certain words correctly and have an accent but I can
certainly hear the sound and recognize it. It just takes more awareness.
I can definitely recognize my accent and how I pronounce stuff differently. It
does vary person to person.
My kids have listen to spoken Portuguese all their lives and still have an
accent when they speak Portuguese.
I know a few people who learned second languages as adults and have non or
almost no accent at all!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to very
young children?>>>
They do that in many contries. All schools in Brazil teach English and now I
hear they do Spanish too. When my
mom was a child it was French.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<What about people who do learn to speak without an accent? There
seems to be an "intelligence," or a talent, for hearing differences
and reproducing them, even in adults learning new languages.>>>>>
Absolutely!! Some will have very heavy accents all their lives and some can have
little to no accent with
a little work. I think its like people that have an ear for music.
I can learn languages pretty well but I have absolutely no "musical talent".
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
young children?>>>
They do that in many contries. All schools in Brazil teach English and now I
hear they do Spanish too. When my
mom was a child it was French.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<What about people who do learn to speak without an accent? There
seems to be an "intelligence," or a talent, for hearing differences
and reproducing them, even in adults learning new languages.>>>>>
Absolutely!! Some will have very heavy accents all their lives and some can have
little to no accent with
a little work. I think its like people that have an ear for music.
I can learn languages pretty well but I have absolutely no "musical talent".
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Here is a twist...when I was a teen I went to Paris. I met some Americans
with heavy southern accents. I couldn't understand them unless they spoke
slowly and repeated words, but the French waitress who spoke English as a
second language could understand them. She could also understand my Canadian
accent and the English accent of British Tourists just as easily. The
British Tourists I had to listen carefully to understand, though English is
the language I function in everyday.
The English speakers I could understand easily were from New York, from
Michigan and Iowa. But the French, who spoke English as a second language
with heavy French accents could understand us all easily! Obviously, there
needs to be a theory with respect to this situation,because it seems so
illogical to me.
Marina
with heavy southern accents. I couldn't understand them unless they spoke
slowly and repeated words, but the French waitress who spoke English as a
second language could understand them. She could also understand my Canadian
accent and the English accent of British Tourists just as easily. The
British Tourists I had to listen carefully to understand, though English is
the language I function in everyday.
The English speakers I could understand easily were from New York, from
Michigan and Iowa. But the French, who spoke English as a second language
with heavy French accents could understand us all easily! Obviously, there
needs to be a theory with respect to this situation,because it seems so
illogical to me.
Marina
On 25 August 2010 20:59, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>wrote:
>
>
> <<<Is that maybe why some Asian countries start teaching English to very
> young children?>>>
>
> They do that in many contries. All schools in Brazil teach English and now
> I
> hear they do Spanish too. When my
>
> mom was a child it was French.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
> <<<<What about people who do learn to speak without an accent? There
> seems to be an "intelligence," or a talent, for hearing differences
> and reproducing them, even in adults learning new languages.>>>>>
>
> Absolutely!! Some will have very heavy accents all their lives and some can
> have
> little to no accent with
>
> a little work. I think its like people that have an ear for music.
> I can learn languages pretty well but I have absolutely no "musical
> talent".
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Obviously, there
needs to be a theory with respect to this situation,because it seems so
illogical to me.-=-
I went to student teaching, car ride across town, with a guy from
Boston and one from Farmington, New Mexico. The later "talked like a
cowboy." Most people in New Mexico don't. This one town happens to
have some of that accent, even though it's near four corners (not so
near Texas).
I could understand them both perfectly well, but they couldn't
understand one another.
I have a Brit friend, from Birmingham, mostly. He's lived in New
Mexico for years, but maintains his accent. When he was asking for
water in Oklahoma, the waitress couldn't begin to understand him.
Others had to translate, because he refuses to say what water sounds
like in Oklahoma. He was saying wattah and the waitress needed to
hear wadderr. He has no "r." Sometimes I say "R, please, Charlie"
when I can't understand him. But that's Boston's problem too. Not
much "r." I understand Irish accents better than English, generally,
because they have a prominent "r."
Sandra
needs to be a theory with respect to this situation,because it seems so
illogical to me.-=-
I went to student teaching, car ride across town, with a guy from
Boston and one from Farmington, New Mexico. The later "talked like a
cowboy." Most people in New Mexico don't. This one town happens to
have some of that accent, even though it's near four corners (not so
near Texas).
I could understand them both perfectly well, but they couldn't
understand one another.
I have a Brit friend, from Birmingham, mostly. He's lived in New
Mexico for years, but maintains his accent. When he was asking for
water in Oklahoma, the waitress couldn't begin to understand him.
Others had to translate, because he refuses to say what water sounds
like in Oklahoma. He was saying wattah and the waitress needed to
hear wadderr. He has no "r." Sometimes I say "R, please, Charlie"
when I can't understand him. But that's Boston's problem too. Not
much "r." I understand Irish accents better than English, generally,
because they have a prominent "r."
Sandra
Katrine Clip
> <<But the French, who spoke English as a second languageA meeting between a Dane, a Swede, and a Norwegian all speaking their native
> with heavy French accents could understand us all easily! Obviously, there
> needs to be a theory with respect to this situation,because it seems so
> illogical to me.>>
> <<I went to student teaching, car ride across town, with a guy from
> Boston and one from Farmington, New Mexico. [...]
> I could understand them both perfectly well, but they couldn't
> understand one another.>>
>
>
languages would go like this:
The Norwegian and the Dane will understand each other, the Swede and the
Norwegian will understand each other, but the Dane and the Swede will give
up and resort to English to be able to communicate.
This is partly because in Norway, kids start hearing Danish and Swedish at
an early age from tv (few programs are dubbed/voiced over). They hear
English all the time too, so their "window" is wide open all the time for
learning all sorts of sounds of language.
-Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The Norwegian and the Dane will understand each other, the Swede
and the
Norwegian will understand each other, but the Dane and the Swede will
give
up and resort to English to be able to communicate.-=-
Brits understand lots of American accents because they watch a lot of
American TV.
I have a hard time understanding Australians. Even when we used to
get Bananas in Pajamas, they re-recorded the themesong with American
accents after the first season.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and the
Norwegian will understand each other, but the Dane and the Swede will
give
up and resort to English to be able to communicate.-=-
Brits understand lots of American accents because they watch a lot of
American TV.
I have a hard time understanding Australians. Even when we used to
get Bananas in Pajamas, they re-recorded the themesong with American
accents after the first season.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> I have a hard time understanding Australians. Even when we used toIt's because they were speaking "Strine" (Australian <g>). It takes
> get Bananas in Pajamas, they re-recorded the themesong with American
> accents after the first season.
>
some getting used to.
I haven't had much trouble with it. I wonder if it's because I've
grown up with British accents in my family, more recently watching
Australian race car drivers talk, and generally having a lot of access
to Commonwealth countries' television and movies. Dunno.
Robin B.
k
Brian (my Brian at any rate) can imitate sounds and speak foreign
words from just about any language with no accent, including Chinese,
without learning the language fluently. Foreigners do a double take
when he says a word from their homeland after listening to their
accent and without asking where they're from. He picks out what their
native tongue is. English is the only language he knows fluently.
~Katherine
words from just about any language with no accent, including Chinese,
without learning the language fluently. Foreigners do a double take
when he says a word from their homeland after listening to their
accent and without asking where they're from. He picks out what their
native tongue is. English is the only language he knows fluently.
~Katherine
On 8/25/10, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<for instance a person can learn to speak and understand a second
> language
> after the sensitive period for language is past, but may not be physically
> able
> to hear and reproduce all the sounds in that language (so will hear and
> pronounce l and r the same or t and th the same).>>>
>
>
> I may not pronounce certain words correctly and have an accent but I can
> certainly hear the sound and recognize it. It just takes more awareness.
> I can definitely recognize my accent and how I pronounce stuff differently.
> It
> does vary person to person.
> My kids have listen to spoken Portuguese all their lives and still have an
> accent when they speak Portuguese.
> I know a few people who learned second languages as adults and have non or
> almost no accent at all!
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Laura Flynn Endres
>>>>>>>>You don't want to become a tiny voice in your son's head shaming him
for being ways he can't avoid. And even nicey-nice criticism or
reminders can come back for 20, 30, 50 years as "something is wrong
with you," in the little-voices gallery.
>>>>>>>>And, as is the case with us *right now*, it can come back much sooner and quite unexpectedly.
Long story short our youngest son when he was between the ages of 3-5 exhibited some symptoms of what looked like Asperger's. I didn't even think that until a close friend gently suggested it. Back then, I sorta went through some denial and avoidance, and then became a bit fixated on it. I wasn't willy-nilly in talking about it with others, but I did explore what the suggestions were for kids with Asperger's, and I implemented some of them. We saw a naturopath, but we didn't seek a diagnosis or label. We made some dietary changes and I changed the way I interacted with him. I changed our expectations of how he'd navigate social situations, and I was more careful in where we'd go, when, and with whom. All those things helped.
But just the other day my oldest was telling his best friend about that, and he casually asked my husband, "What was it you thought Jonathan had?" Which led to Jonathan saying, "What do you mean I HAD something?" I wasn't there to help navigate that conversation. It was news to Jonathan that we'd ever considered something to be wrong with him. There've been several questions since - What kinds of things did I do? How long was I like that? What was it called again? What do you mean I couldn't go to some places? What would I do?
It's been very upsetting, and I regret that I let it consume us for a while. Alas, I cannot go back in time. Many of the things I learned about dealing with people who are very sensitive still serve me to this day. I never expect that a kid will (or will want to) talk to me, for example. I am very respectful of their space. BUT, even though it's been a long time (12 yrs) since that original period of worry and focus, it's affecting my son's self-esteem and view of himself NOW.
Laura
*~*~*~*~*
"Keep company with those who make you better." ~ English saying
*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*
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alexandriapalonia
I think part of what you're looking for here is a discussion of phonemes (the smallest contrastive unit in the sound system of a language -- that is, that makes a difference in meaning -- why "fried rice" and "flied lice" (the "r" and "l" in English making a difference that they don't in some Asian languages).
Helen Keller did learn to speak, but needed a translator to be understood -- still amazing, as she was in general. :-)
There are a number of different aptitudes in language acquisition . . . auditory processing (and the ability to distinguish new phonemes), vocabulary acquisition, and a talent with a new grammar being among them.
Andrea (who speaks 3 languages)
Helen Keller did learn to speak, but needed a translator to be understood -- still amazing, as she was in general. :-)
There are a number of different aptitudes in language acquisition . . . auditory processing (and the ability to distinguish new phonemes), vocabulary acquisition, and a talent with a new grammar being among them.
Andrea (who speaks 3 languages)