Can reading and writing be unlearned?
Katrine Clip
I want to ask about this, it has been bothering me, and especially my
husband, since we took our now 9 year old twin boys out of school in
November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and before
we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes a lot.
They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of the year
long reading program.... and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.
Since then, we have not pushed reading or writing, but letting them do it
naturally in games and whenever they wanted to pick up a book. They went
from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing. They don't know
basic math anymore either. They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. They never write,
and when I ask them to sign a birthday card, they can hardly remember how
they spell their own names anymore.
They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want to find a
game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are on a
keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
to help them spell.
Have they unlearned to write?
When will they start learning it again? Will they? My husband has such a
pessimistic view on this that it's getting to me too.
When I don't use French for a while, I feel a bit rusty when I start
speaking it again. A friend of mine who went to school in France with me
more than 20 years ago, has forgotten everything he learned that year. He
has no French anymore because he didn't use it.
And then there are the comparisons. Our oldest son read well at 6 or 7,
devouring Harry Patter and other thick books by 8 and 9. How do I handle
comparisons, it's so hard not to compare and then judge. And it's unfair on
them, they always seem to be on the losing side being the youngest and the
weakest. Big brother will always be 2 years older and stronger.
When we want to watch a movie with them they first ask "is it a learning
movie?" because if they think it is then they are not interested. They do
not want to learn anything. They say they don't need to learn.
(The twins do have differing personality traits, but are very similar in
both looks and preferences and opinions. They are two different persons,
with different interests, and at the same time so in tune with each other.
So when I write "they" it may seem like I'm lumping them together as one,
but that's because they have those things in common.)
I have tried reading to them, it's boring (maybe my accent isn't right
either). Audioboks are boring too. We talk about things as they happen and
we make connections, and that works better, but their attention span is SO
short. In the middle of a conversation, they will start talking about
totally different things, like that fly on the ceiling. Or just walk away.
Their imagination is vivid and wild when they play, but it's just hard work
to read, and not enjoyable at all. They are stimulated by visual things,
illustrations (one of them collects a book series with titles like
Dragonology, Vampireology because they are beautifully illustrated - he
enjoys looking at them), tv, video games, internet. But the written words in
books don't fire up their imagination. My husband thinks that their interest
in books has diminished after we started allowing tv alot more.
My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn anything if
they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.
Our boys are growing up trilingual and are actively speaking all three
languages although English is the language of choice and comfort. Can this
have something to do with their seeming inability, or unwillingness, to read
English? Our oldest son didn't have these issues, and now he can even read
some French and Norwegian. Comparing again...
Thanks for your insights,
Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
husband, since we took our now 9 year old twin boys out of school in
November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and before
we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes a lot.
They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of the year
long reading program.... and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.
Since then, we have not pushed reading or writing, but letting them do it
naturally in games and whenever they wanted to pick up a book. They went
from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing. They don't know
basic math anymore either. They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. They never write,
and when I ask them to sign a birthday card, they can hardly remember how
they spell their own names anymore.
They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want to find a
game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are on a
keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
to help them spell.
Have they unlearned to write?
When will they start learning it again? Will they? My husband has such a
pessimistic view on this that it's getting to me too.
When I don't use French for a while, I feel a bit rusty when I start
speaking it again. A friend of mine who went to school in France with me
more than 20 years ago, has forgotten everything he learned that year. He
has no French anymore because he didn't use it.
And then there are the comparisons. Our oldest son read well at 6 or 7,
devouring Harry Patter and other thick books by 8 and 9. How do I handle
comparisons, it's so hard not to compare and then judge. And it's unfair on
them, they always seem to be on the losing side being the youngest and the
weakest. Big brother will always be 2 years older and stronger.
When we want to watch a movie with them they first ask "is it a learning
movie?" because if they think it is then they are not interested. They do
not want to learn anything. They say they don't need to learn.
(The twins do have differing personality traits, but are very similar in
both looks and preferences and opinions. They are two different persons,
with different interests, and at the same time so in tune with each other.
So when I write "they" it may seem like I'm lumping them together as one,
but that's because they have those things in common.)
I have tried reading to them, it's boring (maybe my accent isn't right
either). Audioboks are boring too. We talk about things as they happen and
we make connections, and that works better, but their attention span is SO
short. In the middle of a conversation, they will start talking about
totally different things, like that fly on the ceiling. Or just walk away.
Their imagination is vivid and wild when they play, but it's just hard work
to read, and not enjoyable at all. They are stimulated by visual things,
illustrations (one of them collects a book series with titles like
Dragonology, Vampireology because they are beautifully illustrated - he
enjoys looking at them), tv, video games, internet. But the written words in
books don't fire up their imagination. My husband thinks that their interest
in books has diminished after we started allowing tv alot more.
My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn anything if
they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.
Our boys are growing up trilingual and are actively speaking all three
languages although English is the language of choice and comfort. Can this
have something to do with their seeming inability, or unwillingness, to read
English? Our oldest son didn't have these issues, and now he can even read
some French and Norwegian. Comparing again...
Thanks for your insights,
Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-we took our now 9 year old twin boys out of school in
November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and
before
we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes
a lot.-=-
Too much teaching; not enough learning, not enough choices.
ANY "a lot" adds to the time it will take them to deschool. They were
getting a double dose of schooling.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
It's more important for the parents to do this than the kids, but the
kids MUST (must; no option) recover from school or natural learning
will NOT kick in.
"Kind of" doesn't do it for unschooling.
-=-They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of
the year
long reading program....-=-
Also known as "Not really learning to read."
-=-...and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.-=-
AHA! That's the problem. You did a 360.
Now you need to do a 180. Turn away from the school.
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
I'm putting that link there because you've said they don't read, and
then you wrote this:
-=- They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts,-=-
They're reading. You want to reject that and you've called it "nothing."
They're nine.
Leave it alone or you will make it worse.
-=-They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want
to find a
game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are
on a
keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I
need
to help them spell.-=-
Spell for them with gratitude and joy, or you will make it worse.
-=-Have they unlearned to write?-=-
You haven't learned to unschool.
-=My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn
anything if
they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.-=-
Can you go to a conference? It would help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and
before
we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes
a lot.-=-
Too much teaching; not enough learning, not enough choices.
ANY "a lot" adds to the time it will take them to deschool. They were
getting a double dose of schooling.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
It's more important for the parents to do this than the kids, but the
kids MUST (must; no option) recover from school or natural learning
will NOT kick in.
"Kind of" doesn't do it for unschooling.
-=-They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of
the year
long reading program....-=-
Also known as "Not really learning to read."
-=-...and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.-=-
AHA! That's the problem. You did a 360.
Now you need to do a 180. Turn away from the school.
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
I'm putting that link there because you've said they don't read, and
then you wrote this:
-=- They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts,-=-
They're reading. You want to reject that and you've called it "nothing."
They're nine.
Leave it alone or you will make it worse.
-=-They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want
to find a
game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are
on a
keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I
need
to help them spell.-=-
Spell for them with gratitude and joy, or you will make it worse.
-=-Have they unlearned to write?-=-
You haven't learned to unschool.
-=My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn
anything if
they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.-=-
Can you go to a conference? It would help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kellnq
--- In [email protected], Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
My son can read books like Harry Potter, but he chooses to read comic books and graphic novels more than anything else. He loves the format. Comic books, Pokemon cards and online prompts for Play Station, DS and computer games are exactly the means by which he has learned to read over the past few years.
Kelly
>My son is almost nine and he loves comic books and graphic novels. He devours them. Our local library has a great selection, as do B&N and Borders. He is also making his way through my husband's old collections of comic books from Calvin and Hobbes to Superman. There are so many to choose from.
> They will read comic books, they read their
> Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books.
My son can read books like Harry Potter, but he chooses to read comic books and graphic novels more than anything else. He loves the format. Comic books, Pokemon cards and online prompts for Play Station, DS and computer games are exactly the means by which he has learned to read over the past few years.
> They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want to find aScribblenauts for the DS has been a huge hit at our house. It is a really cool little game in which you solve puzzles by writing/ spelling the objects you might use for a solution and then the program draws the objects for you. We saw a commercial for it just before Christmas this past year and my son asked if we could get it for him. Prior to playing Scribblenauts he had really not expressed much interest in writing/spelling. When he first started playing the game he asked us to spell words for him almost constantly, which we did. Now he is spelling very independently when he plays. Occasionally, he will ask for the spelling of a word, most of the time he will just give it a go himself. He is really looking forward to Super Scribblenauts being released this fall.
> game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are on a
> keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
> to help them spell.
>
Kelly
dola dasgupta-banerji
This thread is going to help me a lot. Thanks sooo much. My daughter almost
9 tells me categorically "I don't like studying". How strong is this
feeling I can see in her eyes and her voice.
She too asks for spellings stuff when she writes a card. Very early in our
deschooling stage, I used to get upset. Now I try to do this lovingly and
joyously. Still I fall back to old ways sometimes. But I try to be alert as
much as I can.
With my son who is 4 and a half. It is going to be easier since he never
went to school. I feel more confident in unschooling ever since I stopped
teaching as my daughter sees as studying.
She can read and understand and follow all instructions on computer games.
So thats fine. And all TV guides and programme schedules. So that great
reading.
Our son has on his own, i am amazed figured out T because he loves trains,
I since thats his name Ishaan, S because he loves ships, P because he loves
planes. And when he sees H he says hot. I am amazed and full of awe.
T is his favourite letter since T is for train for Titanic and T-rex. He
also knows D because of Dinosaurs. And he recognises H and M because his
sister is a great fan of Hannah Montana.
Dola
9 tells me categorically "I don't like studying". How strong is this
feeling I can see in her eyes and her voice.
She too asks for spellings stuff when she writes a card. Very early in our
deschooling stage, I used to get upset. Now I try to do this lovingly and
joyously. Still I fall back to old ways sometimes. But I try to be alert as
much as I can.
With my son who is 4 and a half. It is going to be easier since he never
went to school. I feel more confident in unschooling ever since I stopped
teaching as my daughter sees as studying.
She can read and understand and follow all instructions on computer games.
So thats fine. And all TV guides and programme schedules. So that great
reading.
Our son has on his own, i am amazed figured out T because he loves trains,
I since thats his name Ishaan, S because he loves ships, P because he loves
planes. And when he sees H he says hot. I am amazed and full of awe.
T is his favourite letter since T is for train for Titanic and T-rex. He
also knows D because of Dinosaurs. And he recognises H and M because his
sister is a great fan of Hannah Montana.
Dola
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-we took our now 9 year old twin boys out of school in
>
> November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and
> before
> we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes
> a lot.-=-
>
> Too much teaching; not enough learning, not enough choices.
> ANY "a lot" adds to the time it will take them to deschool. They were
> getting a double dose of schooling.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
> It's more important for the parents to do this than the kids, but the
> kids MUST (must; no option) recover from school or natural learning
> will NOT kick in.
>
> "Kind of" doesn't do it for unschooling.
>
> -=-They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of
> the year
> long reading program....-=-
>
> Also known as "Not really learning to read."
>
> -=-...and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.-=-
>
> AHA! That's the problem. You did a 360.
>
> Now you need to do a 180. Turn away from the school.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
>
> I'm putting that link there because you've said they don't read, and
> then you wrote this:
>
> -=- They will read comic books, they read their
> Pokemon cards, they read online prompts,-=-
>
> They're reading. You want to reject that and you've called it "nothing."
>
> They're nine.
> Leave it alone or you will make it worse.
>
> -=-They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want
> to find a
> game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are
> on a
> keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I
> need
> to help them spell.-=-
>
> Spell for them with gratitude and joy, or you will make it worse.
>
> -=-Have they unlearned to write?-=-
>
> You haven't learned to unschool.
>
> -=My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn
> anything if
> they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
> good education (college) and a good job.-=-
>
> Can you go to a conference? It would help.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
My dd is 9 and rarely reads books, and when she does they're usually graphic novels. She enjoys reading instructions and non-fiction, though - magazine articles and how-to books in particular. I've been looking for more graphic novels for her and found many books and series that have been adapted to graphic form, as well as books written originally in that form. Its worth taking the time to go to a bookstore with a good graphic novel section and seeing what they have if its something they enjoy, but if they're not much of a fan of books at all, its not a crisis.
Learning happens all the time. You don't need to tell them that, and in fact if you've been telling them that, stop right away! Don't talk about learning, it will sound like schoolishness to them. Its more important right now that You come to see learning happening all the time, so that you can relax about that aspect. Pokemon games are full of math and logic. Pokemon shows and movies are full of social issues and all sorts of scientific principles. Comics are full of marvelous use of language, even comics that use very few words, as well as social commentary, and the eloquent use of line as a means of expressing personality, emotion and movement in a 2d, static form.
Think about the way different people deal with a set of directions. Some people read the whole set of directions before they start, some look at the diagrams and figures, some dive right in without looking at anything. None of those are inherently better strategies, they're different approaches that depend on how a person learns and solves problems. If you tend to read the directions, though, the experimental learning looks utterly daft, and if you're experimental you'll wonder why someone else is wasting his time reading all that gibberish.
You're only just starting to get a chance to discover how your kids learn. Step back more, be more attentive. If you need things written down, take notes. If you need to ask questions, as here instead of bothering your kids with them. They need time to discover how They learn, and to some extent they won't be able to do that until they heal from the schoolish hurts. More deschooling!
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16)
> They wentThat's one of the confusing aspects of schooling - it can give parents the illusion that kids are "learning to read" (etc) when really they're just going through the motions. They're not learning in any kind of way that matters to them, so the information falls by the wayside very quickly. All the "basic" skills are exactly that, basic. If your kids don't see a need to use them yet, they will eventually. For now, give them more time to heal.
> from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing.
>>They will read comic books, they read their"But not books" - that's something for you to think about and question. Why should they read books? You've been told over and over that reading books is valuable until you've accepted that hook, line and sinker, but many people don't read books and don't suffer in the least as a result of that.
> Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books.
My dd is 9 and rarely reads books, and when she does they're usually graphic novels. She enjoys reading instructions and non-fiction, though - magazine articles and how-to books in particular. I've been looking for more graphic novels for her and found many books and series that have been adapted to graphic form, as well as books written originally in that form. Its worth taking the time to go to a bookstore with a good graphic novel section and seeing what they have if its something they enjoy, but if they're not much of a fan of books at all, its not a crisis.
> When I don't use French for a while, I feel a bit rusty when I startThe difference is, there are lots of reasons for adults to read on a regular basis. Your kid are unlikely to experience a world in which print doesn't surround them every day. There's an exericise in some book of meditations for artists (The Artists Way, I think) where one tries to not-read for a week - its difficult because text is soooooo very prevalent. So don't worry that they won't find reading useful. They just may never do it for pleasure, and that's okay. I drive to work every day, but I don't drive for pleasure.
> speaking it again.
> When we want to watch a movie with them they first ask "is it a learningIt took Ray a couple years after leaving school to stop saying he hated learning. The idea that "learning" is something painful and unpleasant is one of the hurts schooling inflicts. Give your guys time to heal. Don't offer them anything that looks or feels like school or homeschool or "learning" - every time you offer, you set back the deschooling clock. Offer lots of light-heartedness, be playful and fun. If you offer movies or stories, make sure they have lots of boy-appeal (or whatever gets them smiling and giggling).
> movie?" because if they think it is then they are not interested. They do
> not want to learn anything. They say they don't need to learn.
Learning happens all the time. You don't need to tell them that, and in fact if you've been telling them that, stop right away! Don't talk about learning, it will sound like schoolishness to them. Its more important right now that You come to see learning happening all the time, so that you can relax about that aspect. Pokemon games are full of math and logic. Pokemon shows and movies are full of social issues and all sorts of scientific principles. Comics are full of marvelous use of language, even comics that use very few words, as well as social commentary, and the eloquent use of line as a means of expressing personality, emotion and movement in a 2d, static form.
>their attention span is SOAnother way of saying this is that they have little tolerance for boredom. That's not a terrible thing, they're communicating something important: they're not interested in what you have to say. Its up to you to work on being more interesting - talk about things that interst them, or better, become a model listener! Ask and listen, and if they don't want to talk, watch them with fascination. Better communication between parents and kids starts with parents being more attentive.
> short. In the middle of a conversation, they will start talking about
> totally different things, like that fly on the ceiling. Or just walk away.
> My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn anything ifBut they do read - they just don't read stories. So what? You don't need to read stories to run a business, to be a graphic designer or an artisan, or a carpenter, or an engineer.
> they don't read? How will they succeed?
Think about the way different people deal with a set of directions. Some people read the whole set of directions before they start, some look at the diagrams and figures, some dive right in without looking at anything. None of those are inherently better strategies, they're different approaches that depend on how a person learns and solves problems. If you tend to read the directions, though, the experimental learning looks utterly daft, and if you're experimental you'll wonder why someone else is wasting his time reading all that gibberish.
You're only just starting to get a chance to discover how your kids learn. Step back more, be more attentive. If you need things written down, take notes. If you need to ask questions, as here instead of bothering your kids with them. They need time to discover how They learn, and to some extent they won't be able to do that until they heal from the schoolish hurts. More deschooling!
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16)
Sandra Dodd
-=-"But not books" - that's something for you to think about and
question. Why should they read books? You've been told over and over
that reading books is valuable until you've accepted that hook, line
and sinker, but many people don't read books and don't suffer in the
least as a result of that. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
http://sandradodd.com/bookworship
Many people DO read books, because they are suffering. They can be a
great escape from school and from unhappy families.
I do not recommending making a child so unhappy that a novel would be
safer and more peaceful than home, though.
-=-Give your guys time to heal. Don't offer them anything that looks
or feels like school or homeschool or "learning" - every time you
offer, you set back the deschooling clock.-=-
And I think it's possible for parents to backtrack so many times that
unschooling will never work, because the kids don't believe (and don't
think the parents believe" that there is any such thing as natural
learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
question. Why should they read books? You've been told over and over
that reading books is valuable until you've accepted that hook, line
and sinker, but many people don't read books and don't suffer in the
least as a result of that. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
http://sandradodd.com/bookworship
Many people DO read books, because they are suffering. They can be a
great escape from school and from unhappy families.
I do not recommending making a child so unhappy that a novel would be
safer and more peaceful than home, though.
-=-Give your guys time to heal. Don't offer them anything that looks
or feels like school or homeschool or "learning" - every time you
offer, you set back the deschooling clock.-=-
And I think it's possible for parents to backtrack so many times that
unschooling will never work, because the kids don't believe (and don't
think the parents believe" that there is any such thing as natural
learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***They went
from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing. They don't know
basic math anymore either.***
So, in school they were budding this and that, and at home they are nothing?
That needs to change. You need to find ways to see them differently. See
learning differently. Right now the learning you are seeing is in schoolish
terms. The way that you describe what they do seems as if they are deschooling
nicely, but that YOU need it way more! Anytime you insert your schoolish
thinking onto what they are doing and they feel it, you'll need to push the
reset button and start over.
***But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
to help them spell.
Have they unlearned to write?
When will they start learning it again? Will they? ***
Obviously they didn't really know them in school. Schools have a really
interesting way in tricking parents and kids into thinking and believing that
kids actually know this and that, when they really don't, when really the kids
are repeating things from short term memory. Schools use that as a tool for
teaching. You see it all over in the way people believe that learning happens.
There are lots of people who really truly believe that repetition IS how you
teach and it IS how kids learn. It's not very fast or efficient. It takes
years of repetition to achieve actual knowledge, if it ever happens and
sometimes it doesn't.
Outside of school it might take years to learn how to read or write too, but in
the mean time, kids are learning other things. Before Chamille could read, she
listened to books on cd and tape and watched movies and played intricate games
that relied on elaborate story lines. The video games she liked had really good
back stories. Her imaginative outside made up games were really intense. She
made things for her stories. By the time reading connected for her, she had an
idea of how stories worked, she understood vocabulary and phrasing. She KNEW
things to connect to.
The things kids read in school were boring. Chamille really didn't like early
readers, the stories and such were very basic, too basic.
***They don't know
basic math anymore either. They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. ***
They are doing real reading then. If they are playing Pokemon then they are
doing basic math. If you didn't realize that, you should perhaps play with
them. You will see the math skills if you do. SEE the learning in the things
they are doing.
***Their imagination is vivid and wild when they play, but it's just hard work
to read, and not enjoyable at all. They are stimulated by visual things,
illustrations (one of them collects a book series with titles like
Dragonology, Vampireology because they are beautifully illustrated - he
enjoys looking at them), tv, video games, internet. But the written words in
books don't fire up their imagination. My husband thinks that their interest
in books has diminished after we started allowing tv alot more.***
It doesn't seem they ever had an interest in books. They might not ever. Some
people don't. Most of my husband's extended family do not have bookshelves in
their homes, they have magazine racks. They all went to school. My kids are
not big book readers, but they LOVE books when they want to read one. Chamille
has read quite a few books since she started reading at the age of 11. Yet,
she's still not an avid reader of books. Not like I am. If they like TV and
movies, there are some really amazing things that can come out of that. Margaux
is watching the entire series of Xena Warrior Princess and knows a lot about
Greek mythology because of it, and it connects with her interest in looking for
stars.
It's like little feelers reaching out and grabbing at what they find
interesting. If there is interest then they will remember it and build on that
knowledge. That's how natural learning works. You can't see it if you are
looking for what school does. It's bigger than school and harder to see at
first. School is obvious in what it does and shows, it's measurable, even if
the measurements don't necessarily measure real learning, they measure what
looks like learning, even if nothing is learned. They do it often, so often
that parents and kids believe it to be the real thing.
***Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.***
There is good evidence lately that a college education doesn't have the greatest
pay off any more. It used to, but it's been steadily declining in value since
the early 90's. A good job, though, that's always useful! Maybe, explore with
your husband, the various ways in which people get to the jobs they love.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing. They don't know
basic math anymore either.***
So, in school they were budding this and that, and at home they are nothing?
That needs to change. You need to find ways to see them differently. See
learning differently. Right now the learning you are seeing is in schoolish
terms. The way that you describe what they do seems as if they are deschooling
nicely, but that YOU need it way more! Anytime you insert your schoolish
thinking onto what they are doing and they feel it, you'll need to push the
reset button and start over.
***But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
to help them spell.
Have they unlearned to write?
When will they start learning it again? Will they? ***
Obviously they didn't really know them in school. Schools have a really
interesting way in tricking parents and kids into thinking and believing that
kids actually know this and that, when they really don't, when really the kids
are repeating things from short term memory. Schools use that as a tool for
teaching. You see it all over in the way people believe that learning happens.
There are lots of people who really truly believe that repetition IS how you
teach and it IS how kids learn. It's not very fast or efficient. It takes
years of repetition to achieve actual knowledge, if it ever happens and
sometimes it doesn't.
Outside of school it might take years to learn how to read or write too, but in
the mean time, kids are learning other things. Before Chamille could read, she
listened to books on cd and tape and watched movies and played intricate games
that relied on elaborate story lines. The video games she liked had really good
back stories. Her imaginative outside made up games were really intense. She
made things for her stories. By the time reading connected for her, she had an
idea of how stories worked, she understood vocabulary and phrasing. She KNEW
things to connect to.
The things kids read in school were boring. Chamille really didn't like early
readers, the stories and such were very basic, too basic.
***They don't know
basic math anymore either. They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. ***
They are doing real reading then. If they are playing Pokemon then they are
doing basic math. If you didn't realize that, you should perhaps play with
them. You will see the math skills if you do. SEE the learning in the things
they are doing.
***Their imagination is vivid and wild when they play, but it's just hard work
to read, and not enjoyable at all. They are stimulated by visual things,
illustrations (one of them collects a book series with titles like
Dragonology, Vampireology because they are beautifully illustrated - he
enjoys looking at them), tv, video games, internet. But the written words in
books don't fire up their imagination. My husband thinks that their interest
in books has diminished after we started allowing tv alot more.***
It doesn't seem they ever had an interest in books. They might not ever. Some
people don't. Most of my husband's extended family do not have bookshelves in
their homes, they have magazine racks. They all went to school. My kids are
not big book readers, but they LOVE books when they want to read one. Chamille
has read quite a few books since she started reading at the age of 11. Yet,
she's still not an avid reader of books. Not like I am. If they like TV and
movies, there are some really amazing things that can come out of that. Margaux
is watching the entire series of Xena Warrior Princess and knows a lot about
Greek mythology because of it, and it connects with her interest in looking for
stars.
It's like little feelers reaching out and grabbing at what they find
interesting. If there is interest then they will remember it and build on that
knowledge. That's how natural learning works. You can't see it if you are
looking for what school does. It's bigger than school and harder to see at
first. School is obvious in what it does and shows, it's measurable, even if
the measurements don't necessarily measure real learning, they measure what
looks like learning, even if nothing is learned. They do it often, so often
that parents and kids believe it to be the real thing.
***Success to him is tied in with a
good education (college) and a good job.***
There is good evidence lately that a college education doesn't have the greatest
pay off any more. It used to, but it's been steadily declining in value since
the early 90's. A good job, though, that's always useful! Maybe, explore with
your husband, the various ways in which people get to the jobs they love.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Schools have a really
interesting way in tricking parents and kids into thinking and
believing that
kids actually know this and that, when they really don't, when really
the kids
are repeating things from short term memory. Schools use that as a
tool for
teaching. -=-
Schools use that to create an illusion of a smooth learning curve, as
though an equal amount of material is presented each day, and an equal
amount of learning takes place each day, so that they can continue to
receive an increasing amount of money each day.
The main purpose for most of school's record keeping is to justify
salaries, not to give useful feedback to students and families. They
don't dare call it what it is.
(I'm going to have to do penance now for badmouthing schools; I really
try not to do that here, but to stick to natural learning. Sometimes,
though, if a parent has bought the school's sleight-of-hand and
marketing as the simple truth, it can be helpful to these newly
unschooled children for their parents to look behind the curtain. Not
long, not hard, just enough to relax and pay more attention to their
real, actual children than to school-created cardboard cut-outs of
typical fourth graders (or whatever it might be that's getting in the
way of their seeing their own biological, soulful children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interesting way in tricking parents and kids into thinking and
believing that
kids actually know this and that, when they really don't, when really
the kids
are repeating things from short term memory. Schools use that as a
tool for
teaching. -=-
Schools use that to create an illusion of a smooth learning curve, as
though an equal amount of material is presented each day, and an equal
amount of learning takes place each day, so that they can continue to
receive an increasing amount of money each day.
The main purpose for most of school's record keeping is to justify
salaries, not to give useful feedback to students and families. They
don't dare call it what it is.
(I'm going to have to do penance now for badmouthing schools; I really
try not to do that here, but to stick to natural learning. Sometimes,
though, if a parent has bought the school's sleight-of-hand and
marketing as the simple truth, it can be helpful to these newly
unschooled children for their parents to look behind the curtain. Not
long, not hard, just enough to relax and pay more attention to their
real, actual children than to school-created cardboard cut-outs of
typical fourth graders (or whatever it might be that's getting in the
way of their seeing their own biological, soulful children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
They will read comic books, they read their
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. ***
****
My boys have gone through phases of not listening to books read at home.
However, they always love listening to books in the car. We always have a book
we are listening to as we drive around town. I do have to stop it often as the
boys will think of something they want to say, but we finish a book or two or
three a month without even taking any road trips. A few minutes a day really
adds up.
Right now their favorite series is the Magic Shop Collection by Bruce Coville.
He records with a whole cast and they are very entertaining.
Amanda
Eli 9, Samuel 7
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. ***
****
My boys have gone through phases of not listening to books read at home.
However, they always love listening to books in the car. We always have a book
we are listening to as we drive around town. I do have to stop it often as the
boys will think of something they want to say, but we finish a book or two or
three a month without even taking any road trips. A few minutes a day really
adds up.
Right now their favorite series is the Magic Shop Collection by Bruce Coville.
He records with a whole cast and they are very entertaining.
Amanda
Eli 9, Samuel 7
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katrine Clip
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I want to unschool and do it well, and I need my husband partnering with me
in this.
Thanks,
Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I have so much to learn. I am living and learning and loving all the time.
> -=-Have they unlearned to write?-=-
>
> <<You haven't learned to unschool.>>
>
I want to unschool and do it well, and I need my husband partnering with me
in this.
> -=My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learnlearn more and meet other people!
> anything if
> they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
> good education (college) and a good job.-=-
>
> <<Can you go to a conference? It would help.>>
>
> Yes! We're going to a conference this weekend. I can't wait. We need to
Thanks,
Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>Schools have a really interesting way in tricking parents and kids into thinking and believing thatkids actually know this and that, when they really don't, when really
the kids are repeating things from short term memory. <<<
Ultimately they're even tricking THEMselves into believing kids are
learning stuff. Well, they are. Just not what the object of the
learning exercise was intended to convey. For instance, tons of
worksheet answers are in the form of matching, which is GREAT for
exercising the thinking that perceives/intuits rather than
thinks/deducts. In other words, the kids may not get what the matching
is about. They may simply notice the shape of the "ing" words they're
circling ... as all those have a similar shape they can obviously see
without the least bit of cognitive intake that it means ING as in
something that takes place in the present. They may get all the
answers correct with no notion of the meaning of the exercise.
If you have any of their old worksheets, go look at them and ask
yourself if the learning is really provable. Perhaps the twins and
their classmates were seeing all kinds of other things than would be
intended and implied in an adult's eyes.
Now go back and think how your own school experience went. Do you
remember exactly when you learned to read? How old were you? I only
remember because I had special classes designed to figure out what
level I could be, since my knowledge (reading comprehension) was
probably not matching my actual ability to read. I do remember that
much. I had speech therapy. I was 8 or 8 1/2 when I learned to read
and I started out with biographies. Even so, reading out loud
terrified me because I was all the time mispronouncing words or not
getting the intended sense of the stories.
~Katherine
wtexans
===If they are playing Pokemon then they are doing basic math. If you didn't realize that, you should perhaps play with them. You will see the math skills if you do. SEE the learning in the things they are doing.===
Playing Pokemon is how my son learned to count by, add, and subtract by 10's and 5's. I remember listening to him count by tens one day and when I asked him how he learned to do that, he said by playing Pokemon with his cousins!
We never played the card game according to the official rules, rather we made up our own rules, but it was pretty cool over the years to see how quick he became at adding and subtracting by 10's and 5's in his head as we played Pokemon (cards or action figures).
One of the things I enjoyed tremendously when Andrew was younger was asking him "how did you get to that number?" when we'd be playing Pokemon or store or restaurant or something else in which he'd add or subtract or multiply or divide (in his head, no less!). Without having formal instruction on how to do those things, it was fascinating to me how he'd arrive at a correct answer!! (He would usually round to get a rough answer, then figure out the final answer from there.)
I was always good at math in school, but I've discovered I'm only good at school-math (working math problems the way I was taught in school, using paper and pencil) -- I am *not* so good at rounding and getting to an answer the way Andrew does, nor at doing math in my head. He can often get to an answer in his head much quicker than I, regardless of whether I'm trying to work the problem in my head or on paper.
I'm no idiot and he's no genius -- I would consider us both "average" when it comes to math. The difference, I think, is that he learned how to do math in a way that is comfortable and natural to him and, thus far (at age 12), he's been able to do more difficult math with no problem; I, on the other hand, can only do math well the way I learned it, which is a real disadvantage if I need to get an answer quickly and don't have paper and pencil in-hand.
A couple months ago, Andrew and I were playing around with a big calculator I'd bought for a buck at Hobby Lobby. I showed him how to use the multiplication and division buttons and did a couple multiplication and division problems, explaining that "when people say 'multiply' or 'divide', this is what they mean". His reply: "Ohhhhh", said in a "well that's not such a big deal" tone of voice.
In addition to Pokemon, video games that utilized numerical scores and some form of money also helped him hone his math skills. We played video games together starting when he was 3 and most of the games required the ability to add or subtract -- did he have enough money to buy this or that or to open a new level?, how much more money did he need to do those things?, etc. As he got older and played more complex video games, his math skills became more complex.
If you are open-minded about the fact that learning happens in ways that you might not have considered (in my son's case, Pokemon and video games), you'll see some cool stuff happen!
Glenda
Playing Pokemon is how my son learned to count by, add, and subtract by 10's and 5's. I remember listening to him count by tens one day and when I asked him how he learned to do that, he said by playing Pokemon with his cousins!
We never played the card game according to the official rules, rather we made up our own rules, but it was pretty cool over the years to see how quick he became at adding and subtracting by 10's and 5's in his head as we played Pokemon (cards or action figures).
One of the things I enjoyed tremendously when Andrew was younger was asking him "how did you get to that number?" when we'd be playing Pokemon or store or restaurant or something else in which he'd add or subtract or multiply or divide (in his head, no less!). Without having formal instruction on how to do those things, it was fascinating to me how he'd arrive at a correct answer!! (He would usually round to get a rough answer, then figure out the final answer from there.)
I was always good at math in school, but I've discovered I'm only good at school-math (working math problems the way I was taught in school, using paper and pencil) -- I am *not* so good at rounding and getting to an answer the way Andrew does, nor at doing math in my head. He can often get to an answer in his head much quicker than I, regardless of whether I'm trying to work the problem in my head or on paper.
I'm no idiot and he's no genius -- I would consider us both "average" when it comes to math. The difference, I think, is that he learned how to do math in a way that is comfortable and natural to him and, thus far (at age 12), he's been able to do more difficult math with no problem; I, on the other hand, can only do math well the way I learned it, which is a real disadvantage if I need to get an answer quickly and don't have paper and pencil in-hand.
A couple months ago, Andrew and I were playing around with a big calculator I'd bought for a buck at Hobby Lobby. I showed him how to use the multiplication and division buttons and did a couple multiplication and division problems, explaining that "when people say 'multiply' or 'divide', this is what they mean". His reply: "Ohhhhh", said in a "well that's not such a big deal" tone of voice.
In addition to Pokemon, video games that utilized numerical scores and some form of money also helped him hone his math skills. We played video games together starting when he was 3 and most of the games required the ability to add or subtract -- did he have enough money to buy this or that or to open a new level?, how much more money did he need to do those things?, etc. As he got older and played more complex video games, his math skills became more complex.
If you are open-minded about the fact that learning happens in ways that you might not have considered (in my son's case, Pokemon and video games), you'll see some cool stuff happen!
Glenda
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want to unschool and do it well, and I need my husband partnering
with me
in this.-=-
You don't need to wait for him to get it to move in that direction.
Don't make it something to disagree about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with me
in this.-=-
You don't need to wait for him to get it to move in that direction.
Don't make it something to disagree about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===My kids are not big book readers, but they LOVE books when they want to read one.===
That describes my son, too.
Books have always been a HUGE part of my life, as far back as I can remember, and I was so excited for that to become an important part of my son's life. From the time Andrew was itty bitty, my husband (who's not much of a book reader) or I read to Andrew some each day, and always at bedtime.
One of the first changes we made as we eased into unschooling (when Andrew was 5 or 6) was to let reading become an option. Andrew's reaction was to not want to be read to at all. Eep! That was hard for me!
But what I noticed is that he still loved to look through some "find the Pokemon" books we had. And we were playing Animal Crossing (video game) together and it has LOTS of reading in it -- I'd read outloud while we played, and some days would start getting hoarse from reading so much! But as the months passed, he was comfortable playing the game on his own for longer and longer stretches of time and was coming to me less often asking for my help in reading something on-screen.
I subscribed to Nintendo Power magazine (very family-friendly) and would read the articles to him; he'd look through on his own and check out the screen caps.
As his reading skills progressed, his interest in books remained quite low. BUT, we began buying video game guides for his video games, and he had some Pokemon guides, and I'd often find him looking through those various guides on his own.
He was reading, but reading things that interested HIM.
Then, 2 or 3 years ago, we were at the bookstore and took a walk through the young-readers section and he spied a series of Boba Fett books and asked if we could buy one for him to try. He liked it, so we picked up the next couple books in the series, which he read and passed along to me to read (he often asks me to read series that interest him and I usually enjoy them too), then the series hit a point that the storylines didn't interest him.
Since then, he's read 6 or 8 other book series; some were ones I came across at the library that looked interesting, others were recommended to him by friends. Right now we're both reading the Eragon series. I had suggested it to him several times in the past, but he didn't have an interest in it until one of his friends recommended it [g]. He reads a book then passes it to me; he's nearly done with the third book, and I'm nearly done with the second.
When he finishes a series, he's fine going for weeks or months without reading another novel.
That doesn't mean he's not reading in the meantime -- he's reading plenty! Gaming magazines, game reviews, doing research on the internet, writing his own game reviews for his blog, reading his Facebook page and his friends' pages, reading in-game narration in video games, etc.
I've done such an about-face in how I view books, and in how I view other reading material as well. I no longer view one as being more or less valuable than another. If someone finds something interesting enough to read, *that* is what makes it valuable.
Most every night, my son and I chat quite a long time before I go to bed. It's not uncommon for him to use a word and I find myself thinking, "Wow! Is that a word I knew at his age? I wonder where he heard or read it?". Not wondering in a bad way, rather wondering in an "that's interesting" way. Some of those words may have come from books he's read, but I would say that more of them came other than from books.
Glenda
That describes my son, too.
Books have always been a HUGE part of my life, as far back as I can remember, and I was so excited for that to become an important part of my son's life. From the time Andrew was itty bitty, my husband (who's not much of a book reader) or I read to Andrew some each day, and always at bedtime.
One of the first changes we made as we eased into unschooling (when Andrew was 5 or 6) was to let reading become an option. Andrew's reaction was to not want to be read to at all. Eep! That was hard for me!
But what I noticed is that he still loved to look through some "find the Pokemon" books we had. And we were playing Animal Crossing (video game) together and it has LOTS of reading in it -- I'd read outloud while we played, and some days would start getting hoarse from reading so much! But as the months passed, he was comfortable playing the game on his own for longer and longer stretches of time and was coming to me less often asking for my help in reading something on-screen.
I subscribed to Nintendo Power magazine (very family-friendly) and would read the articles to him; he'd look through on his own and check out the screen caps.
As his reading skills progressed, his interest in books remained quite low. BUT, we began buying video game guides for his video games, and he had some Pokemon guides, and I'd often find him looking through those various guides on his own.
He was reading, but reading things that interested HIM.
Then, 2 or 3 years ago, we were at the bookstore and took a walk through the young-readers section and he spied a series of Boba Fett books and asked if we could buy one for him to try. He liked it, so we picked up the next couple books in the series, which he read and passed along to me to read (he often asks me to read series that interest him and I usually enjoy them too), then the series hit a point that the storylines didn't interest him.
Since then, he's read 6 or 8 other book series; some were ones I came across at the library that looked interesting, others were recommended to him by friends. Right now we're both reading the Eragon series. I had suggested it to him several times in the past, but he didn't have an interest in it until one of his friends recommended it [g]. He reads a book then passes it to me; he's nearly done with the third book, and I'm nearly done with the second.
When he finishes a series, he's fine going for weeks or months without reading another novel.
That doesn't mean he's not reading in the meantime -- he's reading plenty! Gaming magazines, game reviews, doing research on the internet, writing his own game reviews for his blog, reading his Facebook page and his friends' pages, reading in-game narration in video games, etc.
I've done such an about-face in how I view books, and in how I view other reading material as well. I no longer view one as being more or less valuable than another. If someone finds something interesting enough to read, *that* is what makes it valuable.
Most every night, my son and I chat quite a long time before I go to bed. It's not uncommon for him to use a word and I find myself thinking, "Wow! Is that a word I knew at his age? I wonder where he heard or read it?". Not wondering in a bad way, rather wondering in an "that's interesting" way. Some of those words may have come from books he's read, but I would say that more of them came other than from books.
Glenda
amylizkid1
Emma,7, can read a few words and do some math. Her much younger friend who is in school can read a lot more and do more math. It bothered me a little for a few weeks. Then I was hanging out with both of them, observing. Emma is kind, sweet, generous and has a better sense of humor (and way with words) than most adults I know. Other parents have said she has a calming influence on their children.
Her friend is competitive and unpleasant. I almost have to "tune out" to be around her.
I also noticed that the things Emma knows are fairly concrete. Learned and not memorized. Though her friend can read, she has no real concept of what the words mean. Actually, they make a good team. The friend can read the words, and Emma can tell her what they mean!
If Emma never becomes a great reader, I would still prefer to be around her than most other people.
Amy
Her friend is competitive and unpleasant. I almost have to "tune out" to be around her.
I also noticed that the things Emma knows are fairly concrete. Learned and not memorized. Though her friend can read, she has no real concept of what the words mean. Actually, they make a good team. The friend can read the words, and Emma can tell her what they mean!
If Emma never becomes a great reader, I would still prefer to be around her than most other people.
Amy
[email protected]
Hi Katrine,
We are entering our third year of homeschooling and thankfully met up with a small group of seasoned unschoolers alomst immediately!
I do not at all profess to be an expert. All I have to offer is this: The first fall that we did not return to school, my daughter also stopped "reading"...preferring instead to spend almost all her time in the land of imagination. She was 8...and almost never "Hayley" anymore (the name she had been given at birth:) She renamed herself a million different times...she and her sister were "pioneer girls" for hours at a time...I watched in awe (and yes, sometimes in fear...for the same reasons that you express)...but I realized (with the help of my new acquaintances) that my girls were playing "catch-up"...they had spent almost all of their childhood up to that point doing "have-to" things...there hadn't been time to just be what kids were naturally meant to be...free spirits, lovers of play and fun, imaginative beings of light.
My girls eventualy picked up books again...when they were ready...they needed to first fill up their empty souls. They are now voracious readers...sometimes the kind of reading that schools would deem important...sometimes not. But the point is that it can happen, if you allow your kids to reclaim their childhoods first. Hope this helps:)
Much love,
Kirsten
We are entering our third year of homeschooling and thankfully met up with a small group of seasoned unschoolers alomst immediately!
I do not at all profess to be an expert. All I have to offer is this: The first fall that we did not return to school, my daughter also stopped "reading"...preferring instead to spend almost all her time in the land of imagination. She was 8...and almost never "Hayley" anymore (the name she had been given at birth:) She renamed herself a million different times...she and her sister were "pioneer girls" for hours at a time...I watched in awe (and yes, sometimes in fear...for the same reasons that you express)...but I realized (with the help of my new acquaintances) that my girls were playing "catch-up"...they had spent almost all of their childhood up to that point doing "have-to" things...there hadn't been time to just be what kids were naturally meant to be...free spirits, lovers of play and fun, imaginative beings of light.
My girls eventualy picked up books again...when they were ready...they needed to first fill up their empty souls. They are now voracious readers...sometimes the kind of reading that schools would deem important...sometimes not. But the point is that it can happen, if you allow your kids to reclaim their childhoods first. Hope this helps:)
Much love,
Kirsten
--- In [email protected], Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
>
> I want to ask about this, it has been bothering me, and especially my
> husband, since we took our now 9 year old twin boys out of school in
> November last year. They never learned to read well in school - and before
> we knew about unschooling, we took them to tutors and reading classes a lot.
> They seemed to be learning to read from the repetitive nature of the year
> long reading program.... and then we did a 360 and took them out of school.
>
> Since then, we have not pushed reading or writing, but letting them do it
> naturally in games and whenever they wanted to pick up a book. They went
> from being budding readers and beginning writers to nothing. They don't know
> basic math anymore either. They will read comic books, they read their
> Pokemon cards, they read online prompts, but not books. They never write,
> and when I ask them to sign a birthday card, they can hardly remember how
> they spell their own names anymore.
>
> They will occasionally ask me how to spell words because they want to find a
> game or buy something on the internet, they know where the letters are on a
> keyboard. But even simple words they knew and used every day before, I need
> to help them spell.
>
> Have they unlearned to write?
>
> When will they start learning it again? Will they? My husband has such a
> pessimistic view on this that it's getting to me too.
>
> When I don't use French for a while, I feel a bit rusty when I start
> speaking it again. A friend of mine who went to school in France with me
> more than 20 years ago, has forgotten everything he learned that year. He
> has no French anymore because he didn't use it.
>
> And then there are the comparisons. Our oldest son read well at 6 or 7,
> devouring Harry Patter and other thick books by 8 and 9. How do I handle
> comparisons, it's so hard not to compare and then judge. And it's unfair on
> them, they always seem to be on the losing side being the youngest and the
> weakest. Big brother will always be 2 years older and stronger.
>
> When we want to watch a movie with them they first ask "is it a learning
> movie?" because if they think it is then they are not interested. They do
> not want to learn anything. They say they don't need to learn.
>
> (The twins do have differing personality traits, but are very similar in
> both looks and preferences and opinions. They are two different persons,
> with different interests, and at the same time so in tune with each other.
> So when I write "they" it may seem like I'm lumping them together as one,
> but that's because they have those things in common.)
>
> I have tried reading to them, it's boring (maybe my accent isn't right
> either). Audioboks are boring too. We talk about things as they happen and
> we make connections, and that works better, but their attention span is SO
> short. In the middle of a conversation, they will start talking about
> totally different things, like that fly on the ceiling. Or just walk away.
>
> Their imagination is vivid and wild when they play, but it's just hard work
> to read, and not enjoyable at all. They are stimulated by visual things,
> illustrations (one of them collects a book series with titles like
> Dragonology, Vampireology because they are beautifully illustrated - he
> enjoys looking at them), tv, video games, internet. But the written words in
> books don't fire up their imagination. My husband thinks that their interest
> in books has diminished after we started allowing tv alot more.
>
> My husband is so worried about their future, how will they learn anything if
> they don't read? How will they succeed? Success to him is tied in with a
> good education (college) and a good job.
>
> Our boys are growing up trilingual and are actively speaking all three
> languages although English is the language of choice and comfort. Can this
> have something to do with their seeming inability, or unwillingness, to read
> English? Our oldest son didn't have these issues, and now he can even read
> some French and Norwegian. Comparing again...
>
> Thanks for your insights,
> Katrine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
dola dasgupta-banerji
Hi,
The most amazing thing happened today. we went to a birthday party. And my
son Ishaan (4) made his entry as T-Rex. He kept play acting a lot. Then
while talking to some adults he talked at length on Titanic and its history.
I did not know this till this adult friend came and shared it with me. My
daughter Gourika (8) also has a non-competitive attitude now that she has
been home for almost three years.
She too does not like reading books. But she loves looking at stuff on the
net and magazines, reference stuff. She hunts out interesting games to play
on the net. she is a great fan of Hannah Montana, so she is trying to sing a
lot of Mylie's songs.
Amazing how learning is happening silently and quietly. I do have my old
school mind bothering me at times, but hey I am working on that all the time
too.
Dola
The most amazing thing happened today. we went to a birthday party. And my
son Ishaan (4) made his entry as T-Rex. He kept play acting a lot. Then
while talking to some adults he talked at length on Titanic and its history.
I did not know this till this adult friend came and shared it with me. My
daughter Gourika (8) also has a non-competitive attitude now that she has
been home for almost three years.
She too does not like reading books. But she loves looking at stuff on the
net and magazines, reference stuff. She hunts out interesting games to play
on the net. she is a great fan of Hannah Montana, so she is trying to sing a
lot of Mylie's songs.
Amazing how learning is happening silently and quietly. I do have my old
school mind bothering me at times, but hey I am working on that all the time
too.
Dola
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:46 PM, amylizkid1 <amylizkid1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Emma,7, can read a few words and do some math. Her much younger friend who
> is in school can read a lot more and do more math. It bothered me a little
> for a few weeks. Then I was hanging out with both of them, observing. Emma
> is kind, sweet, generous and has a better sense of humor (and way with
> words) than most adults I know. Other parents have said she has a calming
> influence on their children.
> Her friend is competitive and unpleasant. I almost have to "tune out" to be
> around her.
>
> I also noticed that the things Emma knows are fairly concrete. Learned and
> not memorized. Though her friend can read, she has no real concept of what
> the words mean. Actually, they make a good team. The friend can read the
> words, and Emma can tell her what they mean!
>
> If Emma never becomes a great reader, I would still prefer to be around her
> than most other people.
>
> Amy
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katrine Clip
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:35 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:
worksheets. I repeated the same process for my 11 year old son last week
when I threw away 6 years worth of paper!!! It filled my recycle bin about
half way. I did look at some of those, and thought "so much repetition, so
many details, what's the point". I was also at the same time half scared of
the amount of information that my son apparently had learned, and started
worrying about him getting "enough" with me at home now.
school, I remember begging my mom at 6 to please please teach me the
letters. She didn't want to in the beginning, and kind of delayed helping
me. I don't think she did a whole lot with me. At 8 or 9, I was an avid
reader, I borrowed bags of books at the library every week. I was teased
because I was reading so much! And because of the reading, I never had
spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.
I really cannot remember having had so many worksheets as my kids have had,
with the language chopped up into little pieces of phonics so they are
unrecognizable and have no meaning. I remember we had to practice writing
cursive and I was good at it and loved it! The boys usually didn't do well
and hated it.
I also remember the pity I felt for the boys in my class who were always
behind in reading. I couldn't understand it, why wouldn't they hurry up so
we could move on. For me, school was holding me back - until I reached
middle school and the boys caught up and passed me by in science and math,
subjects I didn't like much.
I think my sons still need deschooling and play catch-up because, like
Kristen wrote:
<<they had spent almost all of their childhood up to that point doing
"have-to" things...there hadn't been time to just be what kids were
naturally meant to be...free spirits, lovers of play and fun, imaginative
beings of light. >>
I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be
able to see the learning that happens.
-Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>When I took the twins out of school, I purged the house of all their
> <<If you have any of their old worksheets, go look at them and ask
> yourself if the learning is really provable. Perhaps the twins and
> their classmates were seeing all kinds of other things than would be
> intended and implied in an adult's eyes.>>
>
worksheets. I repeated the same process for my 11 year old son last week
when I threw away 6 years worth of paper!!! It filled my recycle bin about
half way. I did look at some of those, and thought "so much repetition, so
many details, what's the point". I was also at the same time half scared of
the amount of information that my son apparently had learned, and started
worrying about him getting "enough" with me at home now.
> <<Now go back and think how your own school experience went. Do youI loved school for all the learning I did there. I didn't learn to read at
> remember exactly when you learned to read? How old were you?
>
school, I remember begging my mom at 6 to please please teach me the
letters. She didn't want to in the beginning, and kind of delayed helping
me. I don't think she did a whole lot with me. At 8 or 9, I was an avid
reader, I borrowed bags of books at the library every week. I was teased
because I was reading so much! And because of the reading, I never had
spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.
I really cannot remember having had so many worksheets as my kids have had,
with the language chopped up into little pieces of phonics so they are
unrecognizable and have no meaning. I remember we had to practice writing
cursive and I was good at it and loved it! The boys usually didn't do well
and hated it.
I also remember the pity I felt for the boys in my class who were always
behind in reading. I couldn't understand it, why wouldn't they hurry up so
we could move on. For me, school was holding me back - until I reached
middle school and the boys caught up and passed me by in science and math,
subjects I didn't like much.
I think my sons still need deschooling and play catch-up because, like
Kristen wrote:
<<they had spent almost all of their childhood up to that point doing
"have-to" things...there hadn't been time to just be what kids were
naturally meant to be...free spirits, lovers of play and fun, imaginative
beings of light. >>
I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be
able to see the learning that happens.
-Katrine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Twinkle and Ezra Burke-Hubbard
Amy-Your words struck a chord for me.
My son's best friend's are 3 brothers. 2 of them have been
traditionally schooled until last year. Although I am very fond of
them, they are mean and competitive, and I find myself saying to them,
" It feels like you did that on purpose. Are you wanting to hurt me?"
etc. They usually stop. Sometimes they hurt my son and tell him the
reasons why it could have been worse and he should be glad he doesn't
feel worse. The are voracious readers and have the "skills" from
traditional school, including the social ones. My son is learning to
read his own way, in his own time. I am trying not to avoid them since
their mother is also a dear friend, but it is sometimes hard. I am
afraid if I completely tune them out, someone will get badly hurt.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Her friend is competitive and unpleasant. I almost have to "tune out"
to be around her.
I also noticed that the things Emma knows are fairly concrete. Learned
and not memorized. Though her friend can read, she has no real concept
of what the words mean. Actually, they make a good team. The friend
can read the words, and Emma can tell her what they mean!
If Emma never becomes a great reader, I would still prefer to be
around her than most other people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son's best friend's are 3 brothers. 2 of them have been
traditionally schooled until last year. Although I am very fond of
them, they are mean and competitive, and I find myself saying to them,
" It feels like you did that on purpose. Are you wanting to hurt me?"
etc. They usually stop. Sometimes they hurt my son and tell him the
reasons why it could have been worse and he should be glad he doesn't
feel worse. The are voracious readers and have the "skills" from
traditional school, including the social ones. My son is learning to
read his own way, in his own time. I am trying not to avoid them since
their mother is also a dear friend, but it is sometimes hard. I am
afraid if I completely tune them out, someone will get badly hurt.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Her friend is competitive and unpleasant. I almost have to "tune out"
to be around her.
I also noticed that the things Emma knows are fairly concrete. Learned
and not memorized. Though her friend can read, she has no real concept
of what the words mean. Actually, they make a good team. The friend
can read the words, and Emma can tell her what they mean!
If Emma never becomes a great reader, I would still prefer to be
around her than most other people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- And because of the reading, I never had
spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.=-
Reading does help some people spell better, but it doesn't work for
everyone. My husband read more novels than I did when he was a teen
and young adult but his spelling is still "not perfect" (but has
always improved gradually as he "gets" words in his own way). When I
misspell a word it doesn't look right to me. He doesn't recognize
them by form, somehow.
Because "reading" is different to some extent for different people,
and their modes of interpretation vary, it can be a problem to assume
that others will learn to read the same way you/one did, or have the
same benefits from it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.=-
Reading does help some people spell better, but it doesn't work for
everyone. My husband read more novels than I did when he was a teen
and young adult but his spelling is still "not perfect" (but has
always improved gradually as he "gets" words in his own way). When I
misspell a word it doesn't look right to me. He doesn't recognize
them by form, somehow.
Because "reading" is different to some extent for different people,
and their modes of interpretation vary, it can be a problem to assume
that others will learn to read the same way you/one did, or have the
same benefits from it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
Hey, I too am very bad with spellings. I read a lot though. but i have to
agree with Sandra that yes as to why reading is different for different
people. Some read and absorb the language, some only the content, some read
for knowledge, some like the use of words and phrases.
Some people have amazing memory of sentences and phrase from books they have
read and can repeat them as it is. I can never do that. i just read for the
content. If it is a fiction I am reading then I just like the story. All the
classics that I read as a young girl I loved because they had fantastic
plots and characters. but ask me to "can you tell which book this phrase is
from" I draw a blank there.
However a few years back I took part in a quiz and the quizmaster asked a
question related to this phrase "It was the best of times and the worst of
times". Strangely I knew the answer. I kind of surprised myself. One of my
favourite classics. Tale of Two Cities.
So I say relax, chill, reading is happening all the time. My dd Gourika
loves reading signboards and billboards. She reads them perfectly. But ask
her to read a paragraph and she will fumble at the simplest of words. I am
learning to relax. Ishaan on the other hand can recognise words as pictures.
Dola
agree with Sandra that yes as to why reading is different for different
people. Some read and absorb the language, some only the content, some read
for knowledge, some like the use of words and phrases.
Some people have amazing memory of sentences and phrase from books they have
read and can repeat them as it is. I can never do that. i just read for the
content. If it is a fiction I am reading then I just like the story. All the
classics that I read as a young girl I loved because they had fantastic
plots and characters. but ask me to "can you tell which book this phrase is
from" I draw a blank there.
However a few years back I took part in a quiz and the quizmaster asked a
question related to this phrase "It was the best of times and the worst of
times". Strangely I knew the answer. I kind of surprised myself. One of my
favourite classics. Tale of Two Cities.
So I say relax, chill, reading is happening all the time. My dd Gourika
loves reading signboards and billboards. She reads them perfectly. But ask
her to read a paragraph and she will fumble at the simplest of words. I am
learning to relax. Ishaan on the other hand can recognise words as pictures.
Dola
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=- And because of the reading, I never had
> spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.=-
>
> Reading does help some people spell better, but it doesn't work for
> everyone. My husband read more novels than I did when he was a teen
> and young adult but his spelling is still "not perfect" (but has
> always improved gradually as he "gets" words in his own way). When I
> misspell a word it doesn't look right to me. He doesn't recognize
> them by form, somehow.
>
> Because "reading" is different to some extent for different people,
> and their modes of interpretation vary, it can be a problem to assume
> that others will learn to read the same way you/one did, or have the
> same benefits from it.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>I purged the house of all their worksheets. I repeated the same process for my 11 year old son last week when I threw away 6 years worth of paper!!! It filled my recycle bin about half way. I did look at some of those, and thought "so much repetition, so many details, what's the point". I was also at the same time half scared of the amount of information that my son apparently had learned, and started worrying about him getting "enough" with me at home now.<<<I am smiling at that last comment. From the way they don't want
anymore of it, it looks to me like they've had enough busy work for a
lifetime already. :))) You've tried that already. And now you know
what it does. Remember that. And if you feel guilt ok but also know
that it's human nature not to repeat things unless there's passion for
(interest in) what one is repeating.
>>>I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be able to see the learning that happens.<<<Look for the learning and once you see that, there'll be no need for patience.
Deschooling is a very long process indeed. I would venture to say that
it takes much much longer than seeing the learning. I need loads of
patience about myself and how I came up, and also mindfulness -- the
same thing that's needed for seeing the learning.
Here's a link about how learning works if you have time for some
reading: http://sandradodd.com/connections/
~Katherine
On 8/22/10, Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:35 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> <<If you have any of their old worksheets, go look at them and ask
>> yourself if the learning is really provable. Perhaps the twins and
>> their classmates were seeing all kinds of other things than would be
>> intended and implied in an adult's eyes.>>
>>
>
> When I took the twins out of school, I purged the house of all their
> worksheets. I repeated the same process for my 11 year old son last week
> when I threw away 6 years worth of paper!!! It filled my recycle bin about
> half way. I did look at some of those, and thought "so much repetition, so
> many details, what's the point". I was also at the same time half scared of
> the amount of information that my son apparently had learned, and started
> worrying about him getting "enough" with me at home now.
>
>
>> <<Now go back and think how your own school experience went. Do you
>> remember exactly when you learned to read? How old were you?
>>
>
> I loved school for all the learning I did there. I didn't learn to read at
> school, I remember begging my mom at 6 to please please teach me the
> letters. She didn't want to in the beginning, and kind of delayed helping
> me. I don't think she did a whole lot with me. At 8 or 9, I was an avid
> reader, I borrowed bags of books at the library every week. I was teased
> because I was reading so much! And because of the reading, I never had
> spelling mistakes, so I was teased for that too.
>
> I really cannot remember having had so many worksheets as my kids have had,
> with the language chopped up into little pieces of phonics so they are
> unrecognizable and have no meaning. I remember we had to practice writing
> cursive and I was good at it and loved it! The boys usually didn't do well
> and hated it.
>
> I also remember the pity I felt for the boys in my class who were always
> behind in reading. I couldn't understand it, why wouldn't they hurry up so
> we could move on. For me, school was holding me back - until I reached
> middle school and the boys caught up and passed me by in science and math,
> subjects I didn't like much.
>
> I think my sons still need deschooling and play catch-up because, like
> Kristen wrote:
>
> <<they had spent almost all of their childhood up to that point doing
> "have-to" things...there hadn't been time to just be what kids were
> naturally meant to be...free spirits, lovers of play and fun, imaginative
> beings of light. >>
>
> I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be
> able to see the learning that happens.
>
> -Katrine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
plaidpanties666
, Twinkle and Ezra Burke-Hubbard <burke.hubbard@...> wrote:
The environment of school makes a mess of Both competition and cooperation - both are things kids are forced to do, like it or not, when its considered "time" for one or the other, which messes with their ability to do either one of those things freely.
---Meredith
>I am trying not to avoid them sinceHow does your son feel about playing with them? That's the important question from that standpoint. You can keep up your personal friendship in other ways, or move it to a back burner for a few years, if its difficult for you to get time with your friend without kids around. I've done that with a couple friendships as Mo has stopped wanting to play with their children for various reasons.
> their mother is also a dear friend, but it is sometimes hard.
>>mean and competitiveA couple different people have tied these words together, and that's something to think about and question. There's a social bias, in some circles, against competition but some people are natually competitive. Its not a character flaw, or something to try to discourage a child from being, its an aspect of personality.
The environment of school makes a mess of Both competition and cooperation - both are things kids are forced to do, like it or not, when its considered "time" for one or the other, which messes with their ability to do either one of those things freely.
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
***For me, school was holding me back - until I reached
middle school and the boys caught up and passed me by in science and math,
subjects I didn't like much.***
***I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be
able to see the learning that happens.***
Yes! The biggest clue is the one above! Science and math don't need to be
subjects. They exist all around us, they help define the world and how it
works. I recently watched a documentary called Between The Folds. I watched it
on Netflix. This is it here.
What I love about it, is how you can see how science and art and math all exist
together, how interconnected they are or can be. It's done with something as
simple as folding paper. People used to see the interconnectedness of these
things. Somehow it got lost in our modern educational system where everything
is separate from everything else and all of it is separated from the world and
any kind of real world practical application.
Deschooling will help you find the joy in science and math. Once you can see it
outside of school context, it becomes alive and fascinating and huge and
beautiful. All those things that you did in school, once taken out of that
environment can be things of wonder again. Science and math never needed to be
subjects to be disliked, it's one of the biggest most harmful things that
schools do to children, it takes these wonderful things in our world and makes
them dry and boring and meaningless, like passing on fake diamonds and calling
them brilliant when they aren't. A child may never know just how beautiful a
diamond can be and they may never seek it out because they've grown accustomed
to the fake and not very sparkly thing that's been passed as one.
The florescent light passing through the fake diamond may never thrill a child,
and worse, it may bore that child and cause them to find diamonds boring. Take
a real diamond into the sun, that's the real world, brilliant and beautiful.
That's what deschooling can do for you, and it's what you can give to your
children as a gift!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
middle school and the boys caught up and passed me by in science and math,
subjects I didn't like much.***
***I need a lot more deschooling too, to learn to be patient with them and be
able to see the learning that happens.***
Yes! The biggest clue is the one above! Science and math don't need to be
subjects. They exist all around us, they help define the world and how it
works. I recently watched a documentary called Between The Folds. I watched it
on Netflix. This is it here.
What I love about it, is how you can see how science and art and math all exist
together, how interconnected they are or can be. It's done with something as
simple as folding paper. People used to see the interconnectedness of these
things. Somehow it got lost in our modern educational system where everything
is separate from everything else and all of it is separated from the world and
any kind of real world practical application.
Deschooling will help you find the joy in science and math. Once you can see it
outside of school context, it becomes alive and fascinating and huge and
beautiful. All those things that you did in school, once taken out of that
environment can be things of wonder again. Science and math never needed to be
subjects to be disliked, it's one of the biggest most harmful things that
schools do to children, it takes these wonderful things in our world and makes
them dry and boring and meaningless, like passing on fake diamonds and calling
them brilliant when they aren't. A child may never know just how beautiful a
diamond can be and they may never seek it out because they've grown accustomed
to the fake and not very sparkly thing that's been passed as one.
The florescent light passing through the fake diamond may never thrill a child,
and worse, it may bore that child and cause them to find diamonds boring. Take
a real diamond into the sun, that's the real world, brilliant and beautiful.
That's what deschooling can do for you, and it's what you can give to your
children as a gift!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I recently watched a documentary called Between The Folds. I watched it
on Netflix. This is it here.***
http://www.greenfusefilms.com/
I don't know why my link didn't show, but here it is.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on Netflix. This is it here.***
http://www.greenfusefilms.com/
I don't know why my link didn't show, but here it is.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Speaking of the which... here's a link about connecting art, science
and logic. It's about a game where one can predict protein structures
and it's used for actual research:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/video.cfm?id=407526631001
~Katherine
and logic. It's about a game where one can predict protein structures
and it's used for actual research:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/video.cfm?id=407526631001
~Katherine
On 8/22/10, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> ***I recently watched a documentary called Between The Folds. I watched it
> on Netflix. This is it here.***
>
> http://www.greenfusefilms.com/
>
> I don't know why my link didn't show, but here it is.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=->>mean and competitive
A couple different people have tied these words together, and that's
something to think about and question. There's a social bias, in some
circles, against competition but some people are natually competitive.
Its not a character flaw, or something to try to discourage a child
from being, its an aspect of personality. -=-
There is "competitive" as in enjoying playing a board game with rapt
attention, or as in wanting to be the fastest runner in a group.
When a mean person is also competitive, or when one's competitive
nature involves any degree of cheating, hostility, whining, slamming
cards down, or not wanting to continue a game it looks like she's not
going to win, that is a character flaw and is something to try to
discourage a child from being.
Perhaps you will say those are behaviors and not aspects of personality.
If I'm feeling weary, bullied and insulted and am looking for a way to
avoid the presence of someone, another mom, a relative, whatever...
and then the person peppers conversations with reminders or assurances
that she can do something better than me, has a nicer house, better
kids, more facebook friends, or *what*ever braggadocio is coming in
my direction, that can be irritating.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A couple different people have tied these words together, and that's
something to think about and question. There's a social bias, in some
circles, against competition but some people are natually competitive.
Its not a character flaw, or something to try to discourage a child
from being, its an aspect of personality. -=-
There is "competitive" as in enjoying playing a board game with rapt
attention, or as in wanting to be the fastest runner in a group.
When a mean person is also competitive, or when one's competitive
nature involves any degree of cheating, hostility, whining, slamming
cards down, or not wanting to continue a game it looks like she's not
going to win, that is a character flaw and is something to try to
discourage a child from being.
Perhaps you will say those are behaviors and not aspects of personality.
If I'm feeling weary, bullied and insulted and am looking for a way to
avoid the presence of someone, another mom, a relative, whatever...
and then the person peppers conversations with reminders or assurances
that she can do something better than me, has a nicer house, better
kids, more facebook friends, or *what*ever braggadocio is coming in
my direction, that can be irritating.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Some parents will need to step away from the idea that competition is *inherently* wrong or bad, too, or they'll see meanness when it isn't there, especially with little kids who are naturally more egocentric. Its a greater character flaw for a parent to get bent out of shape about a 4yo always wanting to win at Candyland than for that 4yo to cry if he or she doesn't win. (No-one said competition is inherently bad in this thread, this is more of a tangent).
---Meredith
>> There is "competitive" as in enjoying playing a board game with raptSome younger kids (little kids, younger than 5ish) will go through a stage of always wanting to win, though, and if parents are thinking in terms of rules instead of principles - fair means equal for instance - they can end up doing essentially what Sandra's describing (hostility, whining, not wanting to play) hoping to discourage mean competition. Little kids need time to learn about games, though, about playing and winning and chance. Parents can help by showing good sportmanship, rather than demanding it, and looking for creative ways for multiple children to "win".
> attention, or as in wanting to be the fastest runner in a group.
>
> When a mean person is also competitive, or when one's competitive
> nature involves any degree of cheating, hostility, whining, slamming
> cards down, or not wanting to continue a game it looks like she's not
> going to win, that is a character flaw and is something to try to
> discourage a child from being.
Some parents will need to step away from the idea that competition is *inherently* wrong or bad, too, or they'll see meanness when it isn't there, especially with little kids who are naturally more egocentric. Its a greater character flaw for a parent to get bent out of shape about a 4yo always wanting to win at Candyland than for that 4yo to cry if he or she doesn't win. (No-one said competition is inherently bad in this thread, this is more of a tangent).
---Meredith
deannat97
=== some people are natually competitive. Its not a character flaw, or something to try to discourage a child from being, its an aspect of personality. ===
My son never had much interest in competition or competitive games when he was younger. He always felt bad for the "loser", whether himself or another person. Playing Monopoly, he was known to frequently pass money under the table or barter for some fictional and non-monetary skill if someone "poor" owed him money.
===There is "competitive" as in enjoying playing a board game with rapt attention, or as in wanting to be the fastest runner in a group.===
Recently turning 13, my son has shown much more interest in competition and competitive games. His biggest passion right now is football. and watching him pore over video clips and articles/books, and the way he is at practice, it's very much in an "I want to be the best I can be" kind of attitude vs "I am so much better than". He speaks with much excitement about the fast kids (which he is), the guys who can catch *any* pass (which he can't), and with equal admiration about the two very large and out-of-shape guys who just keep on and never give up (even after one of them threw up on the field after running on the 2nd day of practice).
It has definitely become important to him as he has reached his teen years. Wikipedia talks about destructive competition vs co-operative competition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition
I agree that destructive competition is irritating and not fun to be around. Co-operative competition "without violating other people" seems as if it could only build relationship and strengthen community. We are lucky that Alexander's football coach actively encourages and models co-operative competition. Not all coaches/teachers/parents are that kind of model.
Deanna
My son never had much interest in competition or competitive games when he was younger. He always felt bad for the "loser", whether himself or another person. Playing Monopoly, he was known to frequently pass money under the table or barter for some fictional and non-monetary skill if someone "poor" owed him money.
===There is "competitive" as in enjoying playing a board game with rapt attention, or as in wanting to be the fastest runner in a group.===
Recently turning 13, my son has shown much more interest in competition and competitive games. His biggest passion right now is football. and watching him pore over video clips and articles/books, and the way he is at practice, it's very much in an "I want to be the best I can be" kind of attitude vs "I am so much better than". He speaks with much excitement about the fast kids (which he is), the guys who can catch *any* pass (which he can't), and with equal admiration about the two very large and out-of-shape guys who just keep on and never give up (even after one of them threw up on the field after running on the 2nd day of practice).
It has definitely become important to him as he has reached his teen years. Wikipedia talks about destructive competition vs co-operative competition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition
I agree that destructive competition is irritating and not fun to be around. Co-operative competition "without violating other people" seems as if it could only build relationship and strengthen community. We are lucky that Alexander's football coach actively encourages and models co-operative competition. Not all coaches/teachers/parents are that kind of model.
Deanna
Sandra Dodd
-=- Its a greater character flaw for a parent to get bent out of shape
about a 4yo always wanting to win at Candyland than for that 4yo to
cry if he or she doesn't win.-=-
Sure.
I wasn't thinking of Candyland and four year olds, though. I was
thinking of tweens, teens and adults who are competitive in ways that
have little or nothing to do with voluntary participation in a game.
-=-Some younger kids (little kids, younger than 5ish) will go through
a stage of always wanting to win, though, and if parents are thinking
in terms of rules instead of principles - fair means equal for
instance - they can end up doing essentially what Sandra's describing
(hostility, whining, not wanting to play) hoping to discourage mean
competition. Little kids need time to learn about games, though, about
playing and winning and chance. Parents can help by showing good
sportmanship, rather than demanding it, and looking for creative ways
for multiple children to "win". -=-
There's a young adult in my life (friend of my kids, not one of mine)
and I forgot that I intended to avoid playing with her. She isn't fun
anymore if it looks like she's not going to win. She's nowhere near
four years old. I don't need "creative ways for multiple [people]
to win; I need to avoid being at the gaming table with her. Maybe
she'll change, but I won't. I don't like to be made to feel guilty,
and I would rather throw the game than deal with a childish
reaction. The problem with some people like that is if you throw the
game they get just as angry as if you legitimately win. The only way
for ME to win is either to work hard to win, but lose and accept the
gloating.
That behavior should've been discouraged years ago, by someone besides
me. All I can do is avoid the games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about a 4yo always wanting to win at Candyland than for that 4yo to
cry if he or she doesn't win.-=-
Sure.
I wasn't thinking of Candyland and four year olds, though. I was
thinking of tweens, teens and adults who are competitive in ways that
have little or nothing to do with voluntary participation in a game.
-=-Some younger kids (little kids, younger than 5ish) will go through
a stage of always wanting to win, though, and if parents are thinking
in terms of rules instead of principles - fair means equal for
instance - they can end up doing essentially what Sandra's describing
(hostility, whining, not wanting to play) hoping to discourage mean
competition. Little kids need time to learn about games, though, about
playing and winning and chance. Parents can help by showing good
sportmanship, rather than demanding it, and looking for creative ways
for multiple children to "win". -=-
There's a young adult in my life (friend of my kids, not one of mine)
and I forgot that I intended to avoid playing with her. She isn't fun
anymore if it looks like she's not going to win. She's nowhere near
four years old. I don't need "creative ways for multiple [people]
to win; I need to avoid being at the gaming table with her. Maybe
she'll change, but I won't. I don't like to be made to feel guilty,
and I would rather throw the game than deal with a childish
reaction. The problem with some people like that is if you throw the
game they get just as angry as if you legitimately win. The only way
for ME to win is either to work hard to win, but lose and accept the
gloating.
That behavior should've been discouraged years ago, by someone besides
me. All I can do is avoid the games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]