Learning to Write
[email protected]
My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. I
notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
His letters, in the end, look like normal everyday letters so I wasn't
concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
I learned to write in the tradition manner and my cursive is totally my
own original style that is comfortable for me to write and legible to
others. Isn't that all that matters?
Just thought I'd check in with some of you that have older children that
are self taught writers and get your opinions.
Thanks!!
Jen
notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
His letters, in the end, look like normal everyday letters so I wasn't
concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
I learned to write in the tradition manner and my cursive is totally my
own original style that is comfortable for me to write and legible to
others. Isn't that all that matters?
Just thought I'd check in with some of you that have older children that
are self taught writers and get your opinions.
Thanks!!
Jen
Sandra Dodd
-=-
My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. I
notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up-=-
Two of my kids do that and they're 18 and 21.
I wouldn't worry about it.
School tells people exactly how to sit, exactly how to hold their
pencil and their paper, exactly when to stop using a pencil and start
using a pen, etc. It's traditional, from the days that pens were
dipped in liquid ink (the school I attended still had some desks with
a hole for an inkpot; I liberated a big bottle of the ink from the
basement in the 1970's, that hadn't been used since the 1930's or
40's). And in those old days, clerks in offices and banks needed to
write uniformly so that anyone could read exactly what they had
written. Typewriters weren't always around.
The same traditions have continued into the days of text messaging
(not that any schoolkids are allowed to message during classes).
Those who don't want to learn cursive will never EVER "have to." Even
kids who went to school are not all able to read cursive. Pam
Sorooshian reported last year or so that her sister (involved in
scoring SAT tests? maybe) said fewer than half the recent SAT essays
were done in cursive. Soon, I'm sure, those who score them will need
to pass the cursive writing on to experts, because not all those who
score them will be able to read cursive.
-=- I wasn't
concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.-=-
My advice is to avoid neighbors who are kindergarten teachers. They
have their priorities and their focus will NOT be helpful to
unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. I
notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up-=-
Two of my kids do that and they're 18 and 21.
I wouldn't worry about it.
School tells people exactly how to sit, exactly how to hold their
pencil and their paper, exactly when to stop using a pencil and start
using a pen, etc. It's traditional, from the days that pens were
dipped in liquid ink (the school I attended still had some desks with
a hole for an inkpot; I liberated a big bottle of the ink from the
basement in the 1970's, that hadn't been used since the 1930's or
40's). And in those old days, clerks in offices and banks needed to
write uniformly so that anyone could read exactly what they had
written. Typewriters weren't always around.
The same traditions have continued into the days of text messaging
(not that any schoolkids are allowed to message during classes).
Those who don't want to learn cursive will never EVER "have to." Even
kids who went to school are not all able to read cursive. Pam
Sorooshian reported last year or so that her sister (involved in
scoring SAT tests? maybe) said fewer than half the recent SAT essays
were done in cursive. Soon, I'm sure, those who score them will need
to pass the cursive writing on to experts, because not all those who
score them will be able to read cursive.
-=- I wasn't
concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.-=-
My advice is to avoid neighbors who are kindergarten teachers. They
have their priorities and their focus will NOT be helpful to
unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Donndelinger
I'd question what's meant by "printing correctly". I studied with
Vimala Rodgers, a fascinating spiritual teacher, who has looked at how
we write affects our personality and brain development. According to
her, many of the ways we write cursive (developed in the Victorian
times) are very restrictive and are not the ideal way to form letters.
When I was learning Vimala's system and watching my kids writing, I
noticed that they naturally did some of the things she recommended.
(i.e. draw O's clockwise rather than counterclockwise.)
Also most cursive is actually print-cursive - some letters connected,
some not.
Vimala Rodgers, a fascinating spiritual teacher, who has looked at how
we write affects our personality and brain development. According to
her, many of the ways we write cursive (developed in the Victorian
times) are very restrictive and are not the ideal way to form letters.
When I was learning Vimala's system and watching my kids writing, I
noticed that they naturally did some of the things she recommended.
(i.e. draw O's clockwise rather than counterclockwise.)
Also most cursive is actually print-cursive - some letters connected,
some not.
On 8/17/2010 3:22 PM, cookiesforthree@... wrote:
>
> ..a kindergarten teacher, who is our
> neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
> correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"cookiesforthree@..." <cookiesforthree@...> wrote:
If your son seems to find writing something awkward or uncomfortable, then its worth offering another strategy for making that shape.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. IUnless its somehow awkward or uncomfortable for him, there's no reason to be concerned. Many adults write differently than they were taught - and not all adults were taught the same way. My partner makes most of his letters and numbers from the bottom up and his handwriting is perfectly legible, moreso than mine when I'm in a hurry - I tend to fall into an ideosyncratic personal "font" that's a mish-mash of print and cursive with a few odd-ball characters picked up here and there.
> notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
> example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
> letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
If your son seems to find writing something awkward or uncomfortable, then its worth offering another strategy for making that shape.
>>it could effect the way that they learn cursive laterIf he chooses to learn cursive at some point, he'll probably find the ways of making the letters fascinating, just like people do when they get all wrapped up in calligraphy. Any more, cursive is just one more old fashioned font that's sometimes fun to play with. Its not really essential to learn to write in it any more than it's essential to learn calligraphy.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Jenny Cyphers
***...a kindergarten teacher, who is our
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.***
My oldest daughter doesn't write in cursive. She can't read it and has no
interest in it either. She writes legibly and types. If the need should ever
arise, where she needs to be able to read or write cursive, I have no doubt
whatsoever that she'll figure it out, just like she's figured out all the other
cool things she knows how to do.
The only time that we've run into a need to use cursive, was to read a birthday
card from a grandma. I just read it for her. One grandma has really easy to
read cursive and the other grandma, even if my daughter could read cursive,
would have a hard time reading that cursive. Cursive was a way to be able to
write strings of words without dipping the pen in the ink more than was
absolutely necessary. I imagine it has much to do with character writing being
so elaborate as well, the need to keep the pen or brush down on the paper as
long as possible without using more ink.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.***
My oldest daughter doesn't write in cursive. She can't read it and has no
interest in it either. She writes legibly and types. If the need should ever
arise, where she needs to be able to read or write cursive, I have no doubt
whatsoever that she'll figure it out, just like she's figured out all the other
cool things she knows how to do.
The only time that we've run into a need to use cursive, was to read a birthday
card from a grandma. I just read it for her. One grandma has really easy to
read cursive and the other grandma, even if my daughter could read cursive,
would have a hard time reading that cursive. Cursive was a way to be able to
write strings of words without dipping the pen in the ink more than was
absolutely necessary. I imagine it has much to do with character writing being
so elaborate as well, the need to keep the pen or brush down on the paper as
long as possible without using more ink.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
"My advice is to avoid neighbors who are kindergarten teachers. They
have their priorities and their focus will NOT be helpful to
unschoolers."
Kindergarten was the year I pulled my 13 yro daughter, Gabrielle, out of school. She is ampidextrius and her kindergarten teacher actually wanted to make her choose a hand. Her logic was and still is "when one hand gets tired, I use the other". I wish I could do that :-)
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
have their priorities and their focus will NOT be helpful to
unschoolers."
Kindergarten was the year I pulled my 13 yro daughter, Gabrielle, out of school. She is ampidextrius and her kindergarten teacher actually wanted to make her choose a hand. Her logic was and still is "when one hand gets tired, I use the other". I wish I could do that :-)
BB,
Chrissie
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I imagine it has much to do with character writing being
so elaborate as well, the need to keep the pen or brush down on the
paper as
long as possible without using more ink.-=-
And to keep it from splotting and splattering from "going against" the
nib (when there was a nib, log before there were pencils and ballpoint
pens and electronic word processing.
It used to bug the heck out of me that a "Palmer cursive" capital Q
looked like a 2, but after I did calligraphy for a while I saw where
that is in an elaborate Renaissance pen-drawn Q. They didn't draw a
Q, but somewhere around the 18th or 19th century, some penmanship
teacher (named Palmer, or one of Palmer's teachers, I figure :-) )
saved just that part of it, and for a while people recognized why. A
century or two passed...
Q is what a Q looks like, because when people read, they're usually
reading from a webpage or from paper filled with words prepared from
an electronic source. It probably didn't come off "a printing press"--
not much anymore. It was probably photostatically transferred, or ink-
jetted, or "laser printed" straight from code, and never was in any
other form. My books that come from Lulu "press"? "Press" is a
legal term for the owner of the reproducing equipment, who have a
legal right to decide what to do with their "press." They don't
really actually have a machine that pushes down to create an
imPRESSion. (I hope you're impressed. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
so elaborate as well, the need to keep the pen or brush down on the
paper as
long as possible without using more ink.-=-
And to keep it from splotting and splattering from "going against" the
nib (when there was a nib, log before there were pencils and ballpoint
pens and electronic word processing.
It used to bug the heck out of me that a "Palmer cursive" capital Q
looked like a 2, but after I did calligraphy for a while I saw where
that is in an elaborate Renaissance pen-drawn Q. They didn't draw a
Q, but somewhere around the 18th or 19th century, some penmanship
teacher (named Palmer, or one of Palmer's teachers, I figure :-) )
saved just that part of it, and for a while people recognized why. A
century or two passed...
Q is what a Q looks like, because when people read, they're usually
reading from a webpage or from paper filled with words prepared from
an electronic source. It probably didn't come off "a printing press"--
not much anymore. It was probably photostatically transferred, or ink-
jetted, or "laser printed" straight from code, and never was in any
other form. My books that come from Lulu "press"? "Press" is a
legal term for the owner of the reproducing equipment, who have a
legal right to decide what to do with their "press." They don't
really actually have a machine that pushes down to create an
imPRESSion. (I hope you're impressed. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Kindergarten was the year I pulled my 13 yro daughter, Gabrielle,
out of school. She is ampidextrius-=-
I bet you pulled a five year old out. :-)
Given the topic here, I want to fix the spelling on amibdextrous.
"Dextrous" has to do with "dexterity."
Linguistically, it has to do with the dexter hand, rather than the
sinister hand. That's old, but still important in some places! I've
been told and reminded than when I'm in India I should NOT put my left
hand into shared food. REALLY not. Nasty. Ruins the food; I don't
get invited back.
And the second syllable, "bi" is the big one. "Bi" meaning two, as in
bicycle, bilateral, bisect, Ambi means "both." Ambivalent.
Ambiguous.
So someone who is ambidextrous has both hands "right."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out of school. She is ampidextrius-=-
I bet you pulled a five year old out. :-)
Given the topic here, I want to fix the spelling on amibdextrous.
"Dextrous" has to do with "dexterity."
Linguistically, it has to do with the dexter hand, rather than the
sinister hand. That's old, but still important in some places! I've
been told and reminded than when I'm in India I should NOT put my left
hand into shared food. REALLY not. Nasty. Ruins the food; I don't
get invited back.
And the second syllable, "bi" is the big one. "Bi" meaning two, as in
bicycle, bilateral, bisect, Ambi means "both." Ambivalent.
Ambiguous.
So someone who is ambidextrous has both hands "right."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
just today i read an article that most kids who are going to graduate from college in 4 years do not write cursive at all. diffrent generations It was very interesting!
On Tue Aug 17th, 2010 2:22 PM CDT cookiesforthree@... wrote:
>
>My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. I
>notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
>example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
>letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
>
>His letters, in the end, look like normal everyday letters so I wasn't
>concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
>neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
>correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
>
>I learned to write in the tradition manner and my cursive is totally my
>own original style that is comfortable for me to write and legible to
>others. Isn't that all that matters?
>
>Just thought I'd check in with some of you that have older children that
>are self taught writers and get your opinions.
>
>Thanks!!
>
>Jen
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-just today i read an article that most kids who are going to
graduate from college in 4 years do not write cursive at all. diffrent
generations It was very interesting!=-
Was it online? Do you remember where you saw it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graduate from college in 4 years do not write cursive at all. diffrent
generations It was very interesting!=-
Was it online? Do you remember where you saw it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer
I saw this blurb on CNN today!
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-just today i read an article that most kids who are going to
> graduate from college in 4 years do not write cursive at all. diffrent
> generations It was very interesting!=-
>
> Was it online? Do you remember where you saw it?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>In India, is it the same as in Arabic countries? Your right hand is
> Linguistically, it has to do with the dexter hand, rather than the
> sinister hand. That's old, but still important in some places! I've
> been told and reminded than when I'm in India I should NOT put my left
> hand into shared food. REALLY not. Nasty. Ruins the food; I don't
> get invited back.
for eating, your left for, for the lack of a better word, "wiping"? It
would be an egregious thing to use your left hand then!
I wonder what happens if you are born left-handed in those countries?
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I saw this blurb on CNN today!-=-
Could you check your browser history and bring a link please?
Otherwise your post says "me too!"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could you check your browser history and bring a link please?
Otherwise your post says "me too!"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your right hand is
for eating, your left for, for the lack of a better word, "wiping"?-=-
There's not a better word.
"Cleaning yourself"? Phrase...
Hooray, bidet! (Only 'cept I don't have one and I haven't heard of
them being in every home in India...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for eating, your left for, for the lack of a better word, "wiping"?-=-
There's not a better word.
"Cleaning yourself"? Phrase...
Hooray, bidet! (Only 'cept I don't have one and I haven't heard of
them being in every home in India...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/08/beloits-mindset-list-for-class-of-2014-takes-note-of-nirvana-and-dirty-harry/1
Here is one of the online articles about the Beloit Mindset List which
tracks cultural trends concerning inbound college students. I literally saw
the story on CNN television. There is no mention on their website, however.
The Huffington Post has a better article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/beloit-college-mindset-li_n_684304.html
Here is one of the online articles about the Beloit Mindset List which
tracks cultural trends concerning inbound college students. I literally saw
the story on CNN television. There is no mention on their website, however.
The Huffington Post has a better article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/beloit-college-mindset-li_n_684304.html
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I saw this blurb on CNN today!-=-
>
> Could you check your browser history and bring a link please?
> Otherwise your post says "me too!"
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m_aduhene
john holt timed himself writing cursive and print......his experiment showed that print was quicker
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
-=-just today i read an article that most kids who are going to
graduate from college in 4 years do not write cursive at all. diffrent
generations It was very interesting!=-
Was it online? Do you remember where you saw it?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I was on my cell phone, it is a smart phone and I got it for free but it is no
IPhone so here goes to link:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/national/article_66bfe995-58ea-540d-97f0-5ef6fc74bd75.html
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Thank you, Jennifer. I LOVE these two:
Rock bands have always played at presidential inaugural parties.
They've never recognized that pointing to their wrists is a request
for the time of day.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rock bands have always played at presidential inaugural parties.
They've never recognized that pointing to their wrists is a request
for the time of day.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-john holt timed himself writing cursive and print......his
experiment showed that print was quicker -=-
The full passage is on this page (with some other stuff).
http://sandradodd.com/cursive
He was doing what countless classroom teachers have done and assuring
the kids they needed to learn cursive so they could write quickly.
He challenged them to a race to prove his point, and he didn't beat
all of them. So he timed himself. Sure enough. Cursive wasn't all
that. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
experiment showed that print was quicker -=-
The full passage is on this page (with some other stuff).
http://sandradodd.com/cursive
He was doing what countless classroom teachers have done and assuring
the kids they needed to learn cursive so they could write quickly.
He challenged them to a race to prove his point, and he didn't beat
all of them. So he timed himself. Sure enough. Cursive wasn't all
that. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
iaunschoolers
> My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. II did a very unscientific and small survey at a recent gathering of unschoolers and discovered that more unschooled children than not draw most of their letters from the bottom up. Both of my kids do. It made me wonder about how hard it might be for some kids to fight against their natural inclination in order to print the way school says they must.
> notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
> example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
> letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
> His letters, in the end, look like normal everyday letters so I wasn'tI shared my finding with my co-worker who is a retired 3rd Grade Teacher. She taught 3rd Grade for 33 years and in our area, 3rd Grade is when cursive writing is introduced. I told her that neither of my kids learned to write in cursive. She seemed unphased and didn't seem to think that it really mattered all that much anymore.
> concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
> neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
> correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
Sandra mentioned SATs -- I believe that soon all the high-stakes standardized tests will be computerized. I know GEDs will be very soon.
Chris in IA
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "cookiesforthree@..." <cookiesforthree@...> wrote:
With the hiragana characters also, the 'brush strokes' have a conventional sequence that's taught in Japanese schools, but I figured it was something only a teacher in a classroom would make a fuss about and have ignored that and I've been writing the characters in whatever way has come to me automatically. Patrick, perhaps from being very used to doing things his way, has done the same.
I write left handed and he's right handed. We noticed that we constructed many of the characters using a different sequence of 'strokes' - but it seemed that the difference came mainly from me starting at the top and him starting at the bottom. That got us into a conversation about how we each wrote the letters of the English alphabet, so we put that to the test by writing out the 26 letters in upper case and lower case and comparing.
Some interesting findings. Pat wrote most of his letters bottom to top. I think from memory it was 35 of 52. There were six letters that we *both* wrote from the bottom in upper case - A, M, N, O, Q, and X; only two letters in lower case - o and x. With the exception of N, the upper case letters I start from the bottom I also write right to left (Pat writes them left to right); and *all* my 'crossbars' - in the letters E, F, H, J, T, f, and t - I write right to left.
That comes from me learning to write in school way back in the 1950s with a nibbed pen dipped in an inkwell - and being left handed. Which meant I had a problem with smearing what I'd just written.
Throughout my primary (elementary) school years in fact and into my high school years, I had an almost permanent ink stain along the edge of my left hand from smearing my written work. To reduce the smearing as much as possible, I learned to curl my arm around the top of the page and arch my wrist - a very awkward way of writing that became a habit into my adult life.
The nibbed pens were eventually superseded by fountain pens, which was an improvement if not a solution, but it was still fountain pens only. Ballpoint pens were banned. They were thought to be detrimental to good penmanship. Ballpoints became an option at my high school.
When I was 16, after I'd left school and got a job as an "Office Junior" (does that role exist any more?), my new colleagues would often remark on the peculiar mechanics of how I wrote. One day, after I had been graduating from doing less filing and making pots of tea to more clerical work, my manager commented on how tiny and difficult to read my handwriting was.
So I learned to write all over again. With a ballpoint pen. Practising writing the individual letters over and over (like I'm doing with the hiragana now). Since then, my writing has been bigger and more legible and it's also non-cursive. I only run letters together if I'm writing quickly.
My son's handwriting is also non-cursive, very much that of somebody who hasn't done a lot of handwriting over the years but whose style has come from his own mind outwards. It's perfectly legible.
I think if an accurate representation of the symbol is the objective, every body has its own optimal way of getting there.
Incidentally, the awkward writing style that I adopted in my childhood faded away some time in my twenties without me noticing until it was gone, perhaps from years of doing lots of writing with a ballpoint pen.
And when I'm writing hiragana I write "crossbars" from left to right.
Bob
>That's been a topic of interest recently for my son Patrick and I (he's 14). We're learning hiragana (Japanese writing system).
>
> My 8 year old son is learning to write his first and last name. I
> notice that he is not writing the letters in a traditional style. For
> example, the lowercase letter i is draw from the bottom up. Many of his
> letters are written differently than what a "curriculum" would teach.
>
> His letters, in the end, look like normal everyday letters so I wasn't
> concerned about it, UNTIL....a kindergarten teacher, who is our
> neighbor, told me that it's important that children learn to print
> correctly as it could effect the way that they learn cursive later.
>
> I learned to write in the tradition manner and my cursive is totally my
> own original style that is comfortable for me to write and legible to
> others. Isn't that all that matters?
>
> Just thought I'd check in with some of you that have older children that
> are self taught writers and get your opinions.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jen
>
With the hiragana characters also, the 'brush strokes' have a conventional sequence that's taught in Japanese schools, but I figured it was something only a teacher in a classroom would make a fuss about and have ignored that and I've been writing the characters in whatever way has come to me automatically. Patrick, perhaps from being very used to doing things his way, has done the same.
I write left handed and he's right handed. We noticed that we constructed many of the characters using a different sequence of 'strokes' - but it seemed that the difference came mainly from me starting at the top and him starting at the bottom. That got us into a conversation about how we each wrote the letters of the English alphabet, so we put that to the test by writing out the 26 letters in upper case and lower case and comparing.
Some interesting findings. Pat wrote most of his letters bottom to top. I think from memory it was 35 of 52. There were six letters that we *both* wrote from the bottom in upper case - A, M, N, O, Q, and X; only two letters in lower case - o and x. With the exception of N, the upper case letters I start from the bottom I also write right to left (Pat writes them left to right); and *all* my 'crossbars' - in the letters E, F, H, J, T, f, and t - I write right to left.
That comes from me learning to write in school way back in the 1950s with a nibbed pen dipped in an inkwell - and being left handed. Which meant I had a problem with smearing what I'd just written.
Throughout my primary (elementary) school years in fact and into my high school years, I had an almost permanent ink stain along the edge of my left hand from smearing my written work. To reduce the smearing as much as possible, I learned to curl my arm around the top of the page and arch my wrist - a very awkward way of writing that became a habit into my adult life.
The nibbed pens were eventually superseded by fountain pens, which was an improvement if not a solution, but it was still fountain pens only. Ballpoint pens were banned. They were thought to be detrimental to good penmanship. Ballpoints became an option at my high school.
When I was 16, after I'd left school and got a job as an "Office Junior" (does that role exist any more?), my new colleagues would often remark on the peculiar mechanics of how I wrote. One day, after I had been graduating from doing less filing and making pots of tea to more clerical work, my manager commented on how tiny and difficult to read my handwriting was.
So I learned to write all over again. With a ballpoint pen. Practising writing the individual letters over and over (like I'm doing with the hiragana now). Since then, my writing has been bigger and more legible and it's also non-cursive. I only run letters together if I'm writing quickly.
My son's handwriting is also non-cursive, very much that of somebody who hasn't done a lot of handwriting over the years but whose style has come from his own mind outwards. It's perfectly legible.
I think if an accurate representation of the symbol is the objective, every body has its own optimal way of getting there.
Incidentally, the awkward writing style that I adopted in my childhood faded away some time in my twenties without me noticing until it was gone, perhaps from years of doing lots of writing with a ballpoint pen.
And when I'm writing hiragana I write "crossbars" from left to right.
Bob
Schuyler
We went to an Indian restaurant in Singapore and David had a hard time not using
his left hand to eat. The chef brought him out silverware so that it became a
non-issue. I was apparently alright at remembering which hand to use.
Schuyler
________________________________
Linguistically, it has to do with the dexter hand, rather than the
sinister hand. That's old, but still important in some places! I've
been told and reminded than when I'm in India I should NOT put my left
hand into shared food. REALLY not. Nasty. Ruins the food; I don't
get invited back.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
his left hand to eat. The chef brought him out silverware so that it became a
non-issue. I was apparently alright at remembering which hand to use.
Schuyler
________________________________
Linguistically, it has to do with the dexter hand, rather than the
sinister hand. That's old, but still important in some places! I've
been told and reminded than when I'm in India I should NOT put my left
hand into shared food. REALLY not. Nasty. Ruins the food; I don't
get invited back.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In India, is it the same as in Arabic countries? Your right hand is
for eating, your left for, for the lack of a better word, "wiping"? It
would be an egregious thing to use your left hand then!
I wonder what happens if you are born left-handed in those countries?
Robin B
This is true also of Indonesia. My parents lived there when my 2 siblings were in high school. My brother is left-handed and continued to use it as usual in Indonesia. I don't know if he every offended anyone. I'll have to ask.
I know right handedness is often encourage in many countries. That use to be true in the US as well. My mother in-law is Dutch. She was trying to encourage my left handed son to use his right hand and would have done this with her children if they had been left handed. My husband's father is essentially a left handed person that was forced to use his right hand to write and do other things. He grew up in Germany.
I'm guessing that in the countries that have strict rules about left hands that children are taught early not to use their left hand inappropriately...and it would matter which hand they favored.
Meg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for eating, your left for, for the lack of a better word, "wiping"? It
would be an egregious thing to use your left hand then!
I wonder what happens if you are born left-handed in those countries?
Robin B
This is true also of Indonesia. My parents lived there when my 2 siblings were in high school. My brother is left-handed and continued to use it as usual in Indonesia. I don't know if he every offended anyone. I'll have to ask.
I know right handedness is often encourage in many countries. That use to be true in the US as well. My mother in-law is Dutch. She was trying to encourage my left handed son to use his right hand and would have done this with her children if they had been left handed. My husband's father is essentially a left handed person that was forced to use his right hand to write and do other things. He grew up in Germany.
I'm guessing that in the countries that have strict rules about left hands that children are taught early not to use their left hand inappropriately...and it would matter which hand they favored.
Meg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband's father is essentially a left handed person that was
forced to use his right hand to write and do other things. He grew up
in Germany. -=-
My own father (who grew up in west Texas in the 1930s and 40s) was
made to use his right hand in school. It messed up his whole school
experience, because he was not very ambidextrous at all, and so was
"behind" from that time (first grade) on, and very unhappy about it.
His right-handed brothers did much better in school.
My dad was good at math and spatial stuff (as many lefty-boys are, for
whatever reasons that will be all discovered and explained someday),
but not being able to sketch and draw the numbers quickly, it seemed
he was "slow" there too. HOW frustrating and unfair for him.
He gladly would have supported a lefty kid, but had two daughters,
both righthanded.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
forced to use his right hand to write and do other things. He grew up
in Germany. -=-
My own father (who grew up in west Texas in the 1930s and 40s) was
made to use his right hand in school. It messed up his whole school
experience, because he was not very ambidextrous at all, and so was
"behind" from that time (first grade) on, and very unhappy about it.
His right-handed brothers did much better in school.
My dad was good at math and spatial stuff (as many lefty-boys are, for
whatever reasons that will be all discovered and explained someday),
but not being able to sketch and draw the numbers quickly, it seemed
he was "slow" there too. HOW frustrating and unfair for him.
He gladly would have supported a lefty kid, but had two daughters,
both righthanded.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cawthon4
> It used to bug the heck out of me that a "Palmer cursive" capital QThis reminded me of a great passage in the Beverly Cleary book, "Ramona Quimby, Age 8." Ramona likes to sign her name "Ramona Q" and add ears and whiskers to the Q to make it look like a cat, since it has a tail.
> looked like a 2, but after I did calligraphy for a while I saw where
> that is in an elaborate Renaissance pen-drawn Q. They didn't draw a
> Q, but somewhere around the 18th or 19th century, some penmanship
> teacher (named Palmer, or one of Palmer's teachers, I figure :-) )
> saved just that part of it, and for a while people recognized why. A
> century or two passed...
Ramona is having a bad day at school and thinks her teacher, Mrs. Whaley, doesn't like her. Here's the passage:
"Mrs. Whaley was describing capital M as she wrote it on the board. "Swoop down, swoop up, down, up again, and down." Ramona got out paper and pencil and began to write the capital letters of the alphabet in careful, even script. She enjoyed the work, and it soothed her hurt feelings until she came to the letter Q.
Ramona sat looking at the cursive capital Q, the first letter of her last name. Ramona had always been fond of Q, the only letter of the alphabet with a neat little tail. She enjoyed printing Q, but she did not like her written Q. She had made it right, but it looked like a big floppy 2, which Ramona felt was a dumb way to make such a nice letter.
Ramona decided right then and there that she would never again write a cursive Q. She would write the rest of her last name, uimby, in cursive, but she would always, no matter what Mrs. Whaley said, print her capital Q's.
So there, Mrs. Whaley, thought Ramona. You can't make me write a cursive Q if I don't want to. She began to feel like a real person again."
Deborah (whose kids love all things Beverly Cleary)
eintob, d.a.
All this discussion of how unschoolers learn to write and cursive becoming obsolete has me wondering about something my nearly 18y.o. struggles with: his signature.
I had read John Holt when it was "time" for him to learn cursive and decided against teaching it. So all these years he's been printing (but mostly typing since he has disgraphia) and he cannot figure out how to "create" a signature for himself since he has almost no understanding of cursive. What about other print-exclusive writers out there?
~Michelle
I had read John Holt when it was "time" for him to learn cursive and decided against teaching it. So all these years he's been printing (but mostly typing since he has disgraphia) and he cannot figure out how to "create" a signature for himself since he has almost no understanding of cursive. What about other print-exclusive writers out there?
~Michelle
Deb Lewis
***...he cannot figure out how to "create" a signature for himself since he has almost no understanding of cursive. What about other print-exclusive writers out there?***
When Dylan wanted to have a signature for bank forms and Karate sign in sheets, I wrote his name in cursive on a piece of paper. He copied it until he found a comfortable and quickish way to write it.
He doesn't write in cursive at all but he has a very nice cursive signature. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When Dylan wanted to have a signature for bank forms and Karate sign in sheets, I wrote his name in cursive on a piece of paper. He copied it until he found a comfortable and quickish way to write it.
He doesn't write in cursive at all but he has a very nice cursive signature. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
It can help to think of a signature as a stylized representation of one's name. It need not contain all the actual "letters" or even be recognizable as a word - I cashiered for decades and many people have signatures that could be described as artful squiggles that fit into a designated space. Maybe your son could create some "window cards" - a card or piece of paper with a hole the size and shape of typical places one needs to leave a signature. If he prints his name (either by hand or in his favorite comupter font) such that it fits in the space, he can play with tracing over the letters until he finds something comfortable for him to replicate (tracing paper might help with that).
Ray struggled with his signature for awhile, despite having been made to use cursive in school (or maybe because of that... lots of nasty associations). His has gradually been evolving over the past few years as he manages his bank account.
---Meredith
"eintob, d.a." <michelle_bailey@...> wrote:
Ray struggled with his signature for awhile, despite having been made to use cursive in school (or maybe because of that... lots of nasty associations). His has gradually been evolving over the past few years as he manages his bank account.
---Meredith
"eintob, d.a." <michelle_bailey@...> wrote:
>
>
> All this discussion of how unschoolers learn to write and cursive becoming obsolete has me wondering about something my nearly 18y.o. struggles with: his signature.
Sandra Dodd
-=-So there, Mrs. Whaley, thought Ramona. You can't make me write a
cursive Q if I don't want to. She began to feel like a real person
again."-=-
Nice.
My name was Sandra Adams when I was learning cursive. I did NOT like
my signature in those days at all. The cursive S and A are both ugly.
I had a boyfriend in high school who used a cursive-esque version of
printed capitals, and I borrowed from his beautiful handwriting, after
which I used a REAL "S" and a REAL "A" to sign my name.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cursive Q if I don't want to. She began to feel like a real person
again."-=-
Nice.
My name was Sandra Adams when I was learning cursive. I did NOT like
my signature in those days at all. The cursive S and A are both ugly.
I had a boyfriend in high school who used a cursive-esque version of
printed capitals, and I borrowed from his beautiful handwriting, after
which I used a REAL "S" and a REAL "A" to sign my name.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue
When my daughter wanted a signature to sign her artwork with, I printed out some worksheets on cursive lettering and she went through them just enough to craft something she liked. (Then she changed her name -- and had to come up with a new sig, which she did quickly and on her own.)
I know adults who create really unusual signatures that don't resemble lettering at all, just to thwart would-be forgers -- not that that's much of an issue in this day and age -- so there's absolutely no need to have a conventional cursive signature.
Sue
I know adults who create really unusual signatures that don't resemble lettering at all, just to thwart would-be forgers -- not that that's much of an issue in this day and age -- so there's absolutely no need to have a conventional cursive signature.
Sue
--- In [email protected], "eintob, d.a." <michelle_bailey@...> wrote:
>
>
> All this discussion of how unschoolers learn to write and cursive becoming obsolete has me wondering about something my nearly 18y.o. struggles with: his signature.
>
> I had read John Holt when it was "time" for him to learn cursive and decided against teaching it. So all these years he's been printing (but mostly typing since he has disgraphia) and he cannot figure out how to "create" a signature for himself since he has almost no understanding of cursive. What about other print-exclusive writers out there?
> ~Michelle
>