rachael_copp_cohen

I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.

------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get very different answers from each. ---------------

My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents, aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.

I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom, personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my husband.

I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice. But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have enough left over for my spouse and myself.

I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't want to come back. I Really Need A Break.

Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the severity of the situation.)

But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need a break.

We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.

What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst critic.

Thank you so much in advance,
Rachael

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:21 AM, rachael_copp_cohen wrote:

> I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few
> hours a week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or
> get a babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it.
> My time away from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So
> Much More. I didn't want to come back. I Really Need A Break.

This is quick and just addressing this part. I hope others will have
ideas for more.

Undoubtedly it will eventually be enough. The problem is that right
now your bucket is empty so it feels like you need a huge amount. And
you've returned from a filling weekend to a situation that hasn't
changed, that is still just as draining.

If you were severely dehydrated you might need a whole bucket of
water. But that doesn't mean you'd need a whole bucket everyday. Once
you're back to equilibrium you need only replace what's lost each day.

As with many situations, the answer won't be one massive solution to
it all. It will be one little thing at a time. One step in the right
direct. Then another. An evening off to spend quietly reading in a
bookstore won't fix everything but it will be a step in the right
direction. A babysitter for the afternoon won't be *the* fix but it
will be another step in the right direction. They'll all add up, I
promise!

There's a New Jersey unschoolers list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NJ-Unschoolers/

There was an unschooling conference in New Jersey that you might want
to keep tabs on if they hold it again:

http://www.greatbighappylife.com/

and a list for it:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NJUC/

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

alexandriapalonia

> We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.
> Rachael

I think this is key to what you wrote -- and I think it's wrong.

It does not take years to find friends and local support -- but it does take putting yourself out there, finding the groups (see Joyce's links), and joining in so you can make connections and make friends.

I think this is key to what you wrote because you're suddenly stranded with your daughter, and feeling the loneliness and loss of the move.

The other thing that you wrote that I think is key is that you don't want your daughter to miss the chance to be "always unschooled." I think it's probably more important for her to miss the chance to be the child whose parents were "always divorced" or to miss the chance to be the kid whose mother "always resented her." Besides, she's THREE -- unschooling isn't something you're really doing until she would be going to school -- a few hours playing with other toddlers in a Montessori setting is just that: some toddlers playing.

Take the big drinks of water you need now -- Joyce is right -- you won't need them forever . . . but your daughter will sure appreciate having an intact family forever.

Andrea

dola dasgupta-banerji

Dear Rachel,

First of all , I truly empathise with what you are going through in your
life. I am an Indian woman and felt many of the things that you have just
written about when my younger one was that small.

I can say many things, but I would let that be for the time being. Please
read my piece on unschooling partnerships that Sandra put up for those who
could get some help from my experience.

I am Dola Dasgupta-Banerji from New Delhi, India. Unschooling mom for 8
year old and 4 year old. here I would like this group to know how does your
spouse feel about all this?

Lots of courage
Dola

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:51 AM, rachael_copp_cohen
<r.copp.cohen@...>wrote:

>
>
> I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust
> and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
>
> ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always
> Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups
> and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get
> very different answers from each. ---------------
>
> My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like
> her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering
> her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents,
> aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of
> resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's
> like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not
> supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog
> out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my
> attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in
> more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or
> sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the
> energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I
> could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
>
> I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got
> back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I
> highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships
> group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our
> daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability
> of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want
> to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we
> have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom,
> personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage
> to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my
> husband.
>
> I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better
> wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier
> to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and
> planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice.
> But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I
> think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to
> be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have
> enough left over for my spouse and myself.
>
> I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a
> week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a
> babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away
> from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't
> want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
>
> Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me
> that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained
> Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in
> her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a
> week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd
> rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like
> setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away
> her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even
> actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the
> severity of the situation.)
>
> But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted
> to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need
> a break.
>
> We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a
> support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even
> knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months,
> even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for
> help in hard times.
>
> What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have
> time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask
> in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making
> unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or
> judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst
> critic.
>
> Thank you so much in advance,
> Rachael
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Your daughter sounds very much like my son but I have somehow managed
to come to different terms about it. At one time, breastfeeding was
driving me sometimes very batty. Certainly at 3, Karl had almost no
desire to play with other kids. Probably because he was still 3...
because even in 3 year old kids who weren't (and likely never had
been) breastfeeding, I've noticed that the level of attachment is very
similar ... every bit as far as you're talking about. What you're
seeing in your daughter is normal. Kids do change just not immediately
but once they do change, it's remarkable how quickly changes take
place.

At the time, I doubted that the level of attachment in Karl was
normal. People (in my own very distance, very child-unfriendly group
of relatives) told me that I was allowing it and that's why it was
happening. But I noticed that their own kids only cried less or asked
for less because the parents were/are spankers and timeout/cry-it-out
advocates.

Brian (my partner) got a call from a co-worker we've visited in the
past. He was asking Brian what to do about his niece's "constant"
crying and noise-making. He and his wife are currently living with his
brother/sister-in-law and year old baby. The co-worker's wife is in
nursing school and finds it impossible to study because of the noise.
They've talked about this with Brian before-- quite a lot. They've
only been living there about 6 months so far because they sold their
house so they could handle their own bills/spending. The co-worker's
wife grabbed the phone from her husband mid-sentence and talked
nonstop at high volume for over 15 minutes, without taking a breath it
seemed. She was sooooo upset and determined that the parents should be
disciplining this child. Brian didn't bother suggesting she could go
to a cafe or library that has wi-fi or wear earplugs while studying at
the house. He just wanted to get off the phone.

A little background... the nursing student is the oldest in her family
and grew up in charge of 3 or 4 siblings. I'd say her patience for
children is well below nil. Her mom was seldom home due to a ministry
of going from church to church fellowshipping/rehearsing/singing. We
have relatives in the same boat. One oldest child's estranged parents
are running a coffee franchise and they seldom spend much time with
their homeschooled kids. Their substitute is to shower them with gifts
and money which they have a lot of. In both of those families, the
oldest child became the proxy for parent(s) who are remotely available
by phone.

The nursing student is no longer directly responsible for children
(thank goodness, I say). She's in need of attention that she will
probably never get because for one thing, I don't think she knows how
to... she doesn't have lots of knowledge about caring for her own
emotional needs and always leans on others to do that for her. The
same goes for the homeschooled child I just talked about, She's WAY
more emotionally dependent on others than her siblings are, who are
also in need of care they aren't getting.

It surprised/es me how much children actually need their parents
emotionally, physically.

Maybe think of going out by yourself to breathe free for a few moments
sort of like going out to get groceries when the pantry is low. It
doesn't stay full all by itself. It needs to be done somewhat
regularly. It's a fairly predictable part of your life. You know ahead
of time that it will get empty and need a refill. It's simple once you
figure out how to carry it out.

The same goes for taking care of a child's needs. They don't stay full
by themselves and predictably need regular refills, which are fairly
simple once you figure out the what/how.

~Katherine








On 8/3/10, rachael_copp_cohen <r.copp.cohen@...> wrote:
> I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust
> and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
>
> ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always
> Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups
> and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get
> very different answers from each. ---------------
>
> My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like
> her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering
> her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her
> grandparents, aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a
> lot of resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never
> ending. It's like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all
> times. I'm not supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the
> mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills,
> or direct my attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget
> getting dressed in more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in
> the mirror, or sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't
> even have the energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion.
> Basically, if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to
> sleep - I WOULD.
>
> I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got
> back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I
> highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships
> group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our
> daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability
> of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't
> want to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time
> we have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom,
> personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage
> to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my
> husband.
>
> I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better wife,
> and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier to
> keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and
> planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice.
> But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I
> think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to
> be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have
> enough left over for my spouse and myself.
>
> I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a
> week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a
> babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away
> from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't
> want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
>
> Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me
> that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained
> Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in
> her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days
> a week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her".
> She'd rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a
> school-like setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself
> for taking away her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not
> like we even actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband
> recognizes the severity of the situation.)
>
> But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted
> to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need
> a break.
>
> We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a
> support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even
> knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months,
> even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for
> help in hard times.
>
> What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have time
> to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask in
> advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making unschooling
> work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or judging, as
> all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst critic.
>
> Thank you so much in advance,
> Rachael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

I really don't like cross-posting. If something isn't specifically
intended for the Always Learning list, it's not worth sending it
here. Seriously. This list is different; this list is special. It's
not one of a string of lists.

-=-My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have
felt like her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy"
in mothering her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband,
her grandparents, aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break.
I feel a lot of resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are
never ending. It's like she expects me to "on", perfect, and
infallible at all times. I'm not supposed to talk on the phone, use
the computer, read the mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals,
clean the house, pay bills, or direct my attention to anything but
her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in more than 3
minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or sleeping
an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the
energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically,
if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep
- I WOULD.-=-

How would that be different if you were planning to send her to school
in three years?

She is two years old. Not three. Two.

-=-I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few
hours a week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or
get a babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it-=-

You're rejecting ideas in advance. You've told us that you've asked
on another list. You've asked people to be gentle with you, but
"Folks, that's not going to cut it" is not being gentle with us.

-=-Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling-=-

Unschooling at the cost of a marriage is no unschooling at all. It
doesn't happen.

http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/partners

-=- And I'd hate myself for taking away her opportunity to be "Always
Unschooled". -=-

This is a comment for the other list. It should not have come to this
list at all. She is NOT being "unschooled." She's younger than
school age.

My children were always unschooled. They didn't go to school at all.
But I don't count the days before school started. I count from the
fall of Kirby's fifth year, when he would have gone to kindergarten.

If you wait until your child is five and then send her to school, she
was NOT unschooled for four years. The reason that other list exists
is that when this point was made years back, Danielle was angry that
she wasn't going to "get credit" for unschooling babies. There IS no
"credit" to get. So don't worry about your stats with some imagined
certifying agency. It's dust compared to the reality of the moments
you spend with your husband and daughter. You're facing the wrong
direction entirely if you're concerned with strangers on this list
understanding that you do believe in unschooling.

-=-But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so
overcommitted to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for
myself or others. I need a break. -=-

Have you considered giving her up for adoption?
Have you considered abandoning your family? She does better with your
husband and inlaws, you said.

-=- Basically, if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop
nursing to sleep - I WOULD.-=-

You could. Especially if there's any history of breast cancer in your
family, you could get a mastectomy. Many women have taken that
option, to avoid early death. You could justify that, if you have the
relatives and the genetics to back it up.

I think you're feeling helpless and trapped. You think you HAVE to
keep that baby, that you HAVE TO stay with your family, that you HAVE
to nurse her to sleep.

You're not making any choices, it seems. You want outsiders to tell
you that what you're doing is right and good and that you can have
everything that any of us have--a grand amalgamation of the best of
thousands of lives, without changing anything, I think. Otherwise you
wouldn't have had an opening move of saying, basically, that whatever
we recommend is not going to work.

You must CHOOSE to keep her, and CHOOSE to stay with your husband, and
CHOOSE to nurse her or to wean her. Don't be a victim in your own life.

-=-I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just
got back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille
- I highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling
partnerships group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant
giving to our daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and
the future viability of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse,
and I especially don't want to lose myself! -=-

Wean her and find a good school with sweet teachers who don't feel
like cutting parts of their body off.
Make thing strong with your husband. Get yourself back to emotional
and mental health.
MAYBE then you will want to unschool, when she's a little older and
you're a lot calmer. Maybe you won't. That shouldn't be your focus
right now. If you feel like doing harm to yourself or others, that's
a lock-up situation in many states.

-=-It would be much easier to keep things the way they are, because
that doesn't require action and planning and FEAR that i'm doing the
Wrong thing, making the wrong choice. -=-

There is no one capital-W wrong thing. There is no single wrong
choice. There are thousands of bad/worse/neutral choices that don't
get you toward peace and light. There are thousands of better, good
choices that will get you closer.

http://sandradodd.com/choices

-=- It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or judging-=-

This list isn't about being help to individual members of the list,
honestly. It's about discussing unschooling. You're in such a bad
spot that your child needs change. Don't choose some vague nebulous
ideal over the happiness and stability of your family.

And when you're in a crisis situation, don't ask for help and then put
rules on the kind of help you want and the way you want it worded and
delivered. That is a wrong choice. Many people probably just deleted
your post as soon as they saw you telling them what you didn't want,
and what wouldn't work.

Before you say anything to ANYone about this list, even your husband,
please read this:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
It's the home page of the Always Learning list. Don't cross-post to
it anymore, please. No other list has the same requirements.

Sandra Dodd
list owner
Always Learning






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>> Maybe think of going out by yourself to breathe free for a few moments
sort of like going out to get groceries when the pantry is low. It
doesn't stay full all by itself. It needs to be done somewhat
regularly. It's a fairly predictable part of your life. You know ahead
of time that it will get empty and need a refill. It's simple once you
figure out how to carry it out.<<<

Oh and I made do with a few seconds of tea here and there, a quick dash to
the mailbox (I have a long driveway). And when Karl was an infant I walked
every morning and evening in the field by our house during his naps if he
was in the bed or took him in my carrier with me if he weren't fast asleep.
A book on audio or a CD while playing with him gave me something of my own
to think sometimes but I didn't do that very much. Videos in the VCR for
Karl with something he wanted to play with at that moment gave me a few
minutes.

I just needed a bit of time to learn to share my attention which I had very
seldom done much of until Karl came along.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John

>
> What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have time to take care of myself?

****
One thing I do when I cannot stand to spend another day at home with my kids is to go out. It seems simple but it can really change my whole outlook. Take the money you would have spent sending her to preschool and use it for activities. You just moved to a new place and there is tons to explore. I'm not sure where you are in NJ, but you cannot be more than 2 hours from NYC, PA, or the beach. Plan some day trips. Check out new playgrounds. Try the museums. Look for an ice cream shop. Go to the movies. Join the pool/YMCA. Even if she is young, it might help you. You might even meet people there.

My kids also seem to be able to be more independent after long outings. They are ready to unwind. They are willing to watch a movie or quietly play with toys. After having my undivided attention for a few hours they seem calmer. At home there are too many distractions for me and I find myself wandering from them both physically and mentally.

Otherwise, maybe you should put her in preschool. It would be better than resenting her. You can always take her out later.

Amanda
Eli 9, Samuel 7

Schuyler

It sounds like unschooling isn't a good match for where you are in your life
right now. Anything that has you reaching for images like cutting your breasts
off isn't something that is working. And given that you've backed yourself into
a corner I'm not quite sure I see ways that you can get out of it while
continuing to aim at an unschooling approach to education and parenting.


That said, when things got overwhelming, two things really helped me. One was
finding choices, knowing that I was choosing what I was doing. I can remember
walking the dog one day, vaguely I remember that David and I had just had an
argument, and I imagined myself renting a room from a farmhouse I passed and my
life without Simon and Linnaea and David. I thought I might take the dog. And I
told this story to myself of my life, my solo life and imagined the freedoms and
the liberties that I would have in this private existence. And when I went home
I was so happy to be there, because I chose that, I chose being at home with
Simon and Linnaea and David and I chose having them at home with me.


The second was embracing being at home with Simon and Linnaea. Not resenting
them, honestly turning toward them in the most embracive and accepting way that
I could. The more that I did that, and it took a lot of energy and refocusing to
hush the distractions (similar ones to what you list: to talk on the phone, use
the computer, read the mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals, clean
the house, pay bills) the more I enjoyed being with both of them, each of them.
It isn't happy, happy suck it up, it's truth that enjoying the small moments,
the little bits of life helped me to not feel so tired, so martyred, so whiney.
It's what I still do when I get tense in a moment, I turn toward them. Because I
did it early on or early-ish on it has become a lovely habit to do it now. So,
for example, I find their chatter annoying, I turn toward it and I listen and I
share and it isn't annoying anymore.


If having your daughter with you all the time drives you round the bend, find
ways to joyfully get her doing something somewhere else for a while and be happy
in that choice. Make it fully and freely. It isn't wrong to look for something
else when what you've got going on isn't working.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It isn't happy, happy suck it up, it's truth that enjoying the
small moments,
the little bits of life helped me to not feel so tired, so martyred,
so whiney.
It's what I still do when I get tense in a moment, I turn toward them.
Because I
did it early on or early-ish on it has become a lovely habit to do it
now. So,
for example, I find their chatter annoying, I turn toward it and I
listen and I
share and it isn't annoying anymore. -=-

Yesterday in the chat we were talking about people moving from being
cynical and negative to truly being happy, a couple of people were
admitting having been the kinds of people who thought "happy" was
stupid. One wrote:

"I used to be annoyed by 'happy people'. I thought they were either
pretending or just plain stupid."

This might not apply tot he situation at hand, but IF a mom is sure
that the cool moms are sighing and being impatient, then she might
want to be that way too--to be martyrly and sorrowful about how hard
life is.

The same life can be seen from many different angles.
The same situation can be seen while holding one's breath and being
furious, or while seeing the alternatives and finding ways to be
grateful, no matter how small, because on one small big of gratitude,
one can step up and see another one, and another.

First, that child is alive.
Second, the father still lives at home.
The mom was able to nurse her own baby.
They could afford to move several states, and had some good reason to
do that (I'm guessing).
They have a computer and internet.
The dad was willing to go to a marriage improvement weekend!

Did the mom come here for reinforcements to ignore some of the advice
they got there? I hope not.

Sandra

plaidpanties666

Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>> If having your daughter with you all the time drives you round the bend, find
> ways to joyfully get her doing something somewhere else for a while and be happy
> in that choice. Make it fully and freely.

AND, when she is with you, give her your attention just as fully and freely. If you've been resenting her and thinking of yourself as a slave, then its likely you haven't been giving fully and freely, but guardedly and with lots of mental reservations - and that's part of what's fueling her clamor for your attention.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=- If you've been resenting her and thinking of yourself as a slave,
then its likely you haven't been giving fully and freely, but
guardedly and with lots of mental reservations - and that's part of
what's fueling her clamor for your attention. -=-

Good point.

What's the opposite of "slave"? There shouldn't be opposition.
Parent and baby should be partners, not adversaries.

http://sandradodd.com/partners

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

If you started feeling like her slave while she was inutero, you probably
haven't been acting like a loving mama. Slaves see their masters as well,
masters whom they like to escape and love is generally not the primary
emotion in a master/slave relationship.

Really, you feel like a slave? She hasn't even turned three yet, so since
birth you have been the adult, capable of thought, movement, decision-making
and emotional maturaty.

When I was a LL Leader a mother with twins showed up one day. She had met
another mother with twins who was really cool and was exclusively
breastfeeding two kids. But this mother was having trouble--sleeplessness,
the constant demands and expectations were getting to her. My comment was
Formula has saved many babies, and there is no solution. If you don't or
cannot do this, relax, it isn't a sin. In your case there is also no
sunshine lollipops Pollyanna solution.
Now, this twin mother was worried that her kids would miss out on the great
benefit of breastfeeding and her husband had hired a housekeeper and two
grandmas were over making meals. She and all the people around her expected
her to succeed given all the help they were offering. So she felt guilty.
But the choice she thought was the best choice, didn't work for her. She
wasn't a failure and didn't need to feel guilty.

You are not a failure, and you shouldn't feel guilty. You are living with
your partner and child, so whether you are the cool unschooling mother who
is the partner, or the conventional mother who sends her kids to school is
of no difference if you love your family and do your best.

So, why did you choose to breastfeed? Why not put her on formula, and put
her in daycare at birth? At some point you chose to be this sort of mother.
The baby didn't choose to breastfeed, and would have taken soy or dairy
based formula or whatever alternative is out there if she were allergic.

Is it only recently that parenting her using attachment parenting or
unschooling as though it were a recipe or secret formula for success has
stressed you out? Did you just not believe in it? My kids nursed forever,
constantly and we connected. If you feel angry and resentful that's not the
same as tired, frustrated and in need of a break. Are you ranting or
venting? We have all been there...in need of a break. You seem to have set
parameters for suggestions, so I am not answering your post but simply
asking you to ask yourself if you believe unschooling(a vague enough term as
it is) is so great and why?

Marina

On 3 August 2010 01:21, rachael_copp_cohen <r.copp.cohen@...> wrote:

>
>
> I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust
> and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
>
> ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always
> Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups
> and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get
> very different answers from each. ---------------
>
> My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like
> her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering
> her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents,
> aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of
> resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's
> like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not
> supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog
> out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my
> attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in
> more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or
> sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the
> energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I
> could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
>
> I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got
> back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I
> highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships
> group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our
> daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability
> of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want
> to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we
> have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom,
> personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage
> to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my
> husband.
>
> I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better
> wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier
> to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and
> planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice.
> But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I
> think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to
> be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have
> enough left over for my spouse and myself.
>
> I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a
> week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a
> babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away
> from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't
> want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
>
> Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me
> that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained
> Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in
> her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a
> week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd
> rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like
> setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away
> her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even
> actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the
> severity of the situation.)
>
> But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted
> to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need
> a break.
>
> We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a
> support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even
> knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months,
> even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for
> help in hard times.
>
> What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have
> time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask
> in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making
> unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or
> judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst
> critic.
>
> Thank you so much in advance,
> Rachael
>
>
>



--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry

Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

I don't comment, but I have been reading this list for years. This post has really struck a nerve with me!

I agree with Sandra on many points.

Your child is 2 years old. She cannot do many things on her own. She needs you! You are not her slave! You are a mom!!!! Seems like you aren't fit to be a mom, to me. I hate to be harsh, but you don't sound like a loving mom.

Was your child planned?

I feel truly sorry for your child and not for you at all. You have the ability and the resources to raise your child with love and to give her everything she needs, but apparently, the one thing she needs the most is unconditional love from her mother. It seems that you cannot give this to your child, or you don't want to do so. Being a parent to a very young child is demanding at times, can be hard at times. My son has severe Asperger's Syndrome and I'm sure you have read about parenting autistic children. He's far more demanding and difficult than your daughter seems, but with every motion and everything I do, I love him unconditionally and I do not ever resent him. I don't see myself as a slave, especially when he was 2 years old!!!!It also seems to me that your daughter might sense the resentment and lack of unconditional love and she's reaching out, demanding that love!

One more thing, why is your husband not parenting your child also? Your child is 2 years old. She does not understand the concepts of "being on" or what not (the other things you mentioned). Seems like you have more issues than we are seeing here. Don't put so much onto your child. Don't assume she's thinking at a higher level. She's acting on instinct and she wants her mom to love her fully and to keep her full. You are her best friend, her confidant and her love. Give into her fully and stop resenting the most wonderful person in your life!


--- In [email protected], "rachael_copp_cohen" <r.copp.cohen@...> wrote:
>
> I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
>
> ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get very different answers from each. ---------------
>
> My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents, aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
>
> I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom, personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my husband.
>
> I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice. But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have enough left over for my spouse and myself.
>
> I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
>
> Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the severity of the situation.)
>
> But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need a break.
>
> We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.
>
> What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst critic.
>
> Thank you so much in advance,
> Rachael
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Your child is 2 years old. She cannot do many things on her own.
She needs you! You are not her slave! You are a mom!!!! Seems like you
aren't fit to be a mom, to me. I hate to be harsh, but you don't sound
like a loving mom.-=-

But she's asking for help, so this might be too close to the edge (the
not fit... part).

But she can hardly do ANYthing on her own, and needs her mom.
That's part of being a good mom, being there, and paying attention to
the baby as a baby, as a part of the mother, at first, and gradually
separating.

I'm at the point now where my kids can get impatient with me. I can
bug them with my confusion and my repeated requests for them to
remember to do something or other. The roles will continue to switch
gradually and gradually until they hardly ever think of me and they're
living their own lives.

I can point out that that does happen. I can also remind moms of
babies that the nicer you are to your babies the better you will feel
about yourself and the better they will feel about you. That is
emotional bank. If you don't invest in your future, it might not be
as nice as many of the stories you read here.

It's not a one-to-one guarantee, nice to a baby, teen nice to mom.
But it's pretty sure that resentment builds up and harms the
relationships.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This isn't a question we need an answer to on the list:
-=-Was your child planned?-=-

Posters can have all the privacy they want. But lots of questions are
worth considering privately, quietly.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rachael_copp_cohen

<<<<<<You are not a failure, and you shouldn't feel guilty. You are living with your partner and child, so whether you are the cool unschooling mother who is the partner, or the conventional mother who sends her kids to school is of no difference if you love your family and do your best.>>>>>>

Thank you for this. This is the validation I was looking for. Yes, perhaps I posted just to get validation. There is no one else in my real world that would have been able to give me that validation. I needed "permission", if you will, from the group of people that I have been measuring my "success" against.

<<<<<<So, why did you choose to breastfeed? Why not put her on formula, and put her in daycare at birth? At some point you chose to be this sort of mother. The baby didn't choose to breastfeed, and would have taken soy or dairy based formula or whatever alternative is out there if she were allergic.>>>>>>>>

I chose to breastfeed to give her the healthiest start in life. Because as parents, especially as mothers, we have a duty to give our children the best that we can. I have breasts that make milk (FAR FAR TOO MUCH, which was the initial cause of most of my resentment over breastfeeding -- the Pain, ongoing, every day, without end), so I nursed her, despite the never-ending mastitis, tender nipples (to this day), and flowing fountains of sticky mess. I didn't see stopping as an option. How could I stop? Why did I have a child if not to nurse her? I get your point. But as a new mother, that point would not have, could not have, resonated with me. And I am still a new mother, and it is still hard for me to "let go" of the imperfections and be OK with them. In life I am a perfectionist. Clearly that has carried over to the role of mothering.

<<<<<Is it only recently that parenting her using attachment parenting or unschooling as though it were a recipe or secret formula for success has stressed you out? Did you just not believe in it? My kids nursed forever, constantly and we connected. If you feel angry and resentful that's not the same as tired, frustrated and in need of a break. Are you ranting or venting? We have all been there...in need of a break. You seem to have set parameters for suggestions, so I am not answering your post but simply asking you to ask yourself if you believe unschooling(a vague enough term as it is) is so great and why?>>>>>

No, I have been a stressed out mess from day one. I sometimes wonder how life would have been different if I had never read AP books. When I come upon something that strikes me as right or good (ie environmental stewardship, healthy eating,) I am going to make every effort under the sun to commit myself to it. That is me. I am intense, passionate, and head-strong. (YES, I recognize the parallels in my daughter! :) So I committed to raising my daughter with my whole self, following the guidelines of AP, and then I found unschooling to be a natural next step. (But of course, until she is school-age, I recognize that it is an irrelevant label.) But unlike when I reduce my energy consumption or eat vegetarian, I can't actually control what happens on the other end of AP/unschooling. So to answer your question, I am resentful and angry (as well as tired and frustrated) Precisely Because I believe so strongly in the greatness of AP/unschooling, Because I have done my absolute best and given of myself as freely as I have been able to (while - clearly unsuccessfully - attempting to create boundaries and space for myself), and yet ultimately feel like a failure.

So there you go - the answer is that I have felt stressed out from the beginning because no matter how hard I have tried to do things "the right way" (according to Me, not to others!), I just couldn't seem to succeed. So did that make it a rant or a vent? I don't know.

But thanks for listening.
Rachael


--- In [email protected], Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:
>
> If you started feeling like her slave while she was inutero, you probably
> haven't been acting like a loving mama. Slaves see their masters as well,
> masters whom they like to escape and love is generally not the primary
> emotion in a master/slave relationship.
>
> Really, you feel like a slave? She hasn't even turned three yet, so since
> birth you have been the adult, capable of thought, movement, decision-making
> and emotional maturaty.
>
> When I was a LL Leader a mother with twins showed up one day. She had met
> another mother with twins who was really cool and was exclusively
> breastfeeding two kids. But this mother was having trouble--sleeplessness,
> the constant demands and expectations were getting to her. My comment was
> Formula has saved many babies, and there is no solution. If you don't or
> cannot do this, relax, it isn't a sin. In your case there is also no
> sunshine lollipops Pollyanna solution.
> Now, this twin mother was worried that her kids would miss out on the great
> benefit of breastfeeding and her husband had hired a housekeeper and two
> grandmas were over making meals. She and all the people around her expected
> her to succeed given all the help they were offering. So she felt guilty.
> But the choice she thought was the best choice, didn't work for her. She
> wasn't a failure and didn't need to feel guilty.
>
> You are not a failure, and you shouldn't feel guilty. You are living with
> your partner and child, so whether you are the cool unschooling mother who
> is the partner, or the conventional mother who sends her kids to school is
> of no difference if you love your family and do your best.
>
> So, why did you choose to breastfeed? Why not put her on formula, and put
> her in daycare at birth? At some point you chose to be this sort of mother.
> The baby didn't choose to breastfeed, and would have taken soy or dairy
> based formula or whatever alternative is out there if she were allergic.
>
> Is it only recently that parenting her using attachment parenting or
> unschooling as though it were a recipe or secret formula for success has
> stressed you out? Did you just not believe in it? My kids nursed forever,
> constantly and we connected. If you feel angry and resentful that's not the
> same as tired, frustrated and in need of a break. Are you ranting or
> venting? We have all been there...in need of a break. You seem to have set
> parameters for suggestions, so I am not answering your post but simply
> asking you to ask yourself if you believe unschooling(a vague enough term as
> it is) is so great and why?
>
> Marina
>
> On 3 August 2010 01:21, rachael_copp_cohen <r.copp.cohen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust
> > and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
> >
> > ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always
> > Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups
> > and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get
> > very different answers from each. ---------------
> >
> > My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like
> > her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering
> > her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents,
> > aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of
> > resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's
> > like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not
> > supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog
> > out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my
> > attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in
> > more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or
> > sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the
> > energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I
> > could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
> >
> > I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got
> > back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I
> > highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships
> > group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our
> > daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability
> > of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want
> > to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we
> > have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom,
> > personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage
> > to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my
> > husband.
> >
> > I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better
> > wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier
> > to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and
> > planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice.
> > But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I
> > think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to
> > be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have
> > enough left over for my spouse and myself.
> >
> > I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a
> > week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a
> > babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away
> > from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't
> > want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
> >
> > Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me
> > that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained
> > Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in
> > her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a
> > week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd
> > rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like
> > setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away
> > her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even
> > actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the
> > severity of the situation.)
> >
> > But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted
> > to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need
> > a break.
> >
> > We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a
> > support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even
> > knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months,
> > even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for
> > help in hard times.
> >
> > What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have
> > time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask
> > in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making
> > unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or
> > judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst
> > critic.
> >
> > Thank you so much in advance,
> > Rachael
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> �If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
> the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
> setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
>
> Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

rachael_copp_cohen

It is so interesting, how off-list I have received at least 20 responses from mothers who have shared with me that they went through many of the same feelings with their spirited children at about the same age. I have received kindness, encouragement, and hope from some very thoughtful women (and a man) and I am extremely grateful. I am not asserting that should have happened on list, just observing. The anger, resentment, and judgement towards me from Jennifer, however, is palpable and seems rather misplaced.

I am sorry I did not clearly articulate that, in general, my daughter is quite a happy, fun-loving, and Loved child. She was planned, wanted, celebrated and loved, and is to this day. My husband and I have built our life around her (too much so, it seems). My internal struggles do not mean that on a daily basis I am not There, Present, and really Loving her. I cannot speak for others, but in my case I know it is possible to resent a situation but love a person with all of my heart. And I am quite sure that my daughter knows that as well.

Best wishes to you Jennifer.

Rachael

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Schuelein" <fairiedust66@...> wrote:
>
> I don't comment, but I have been reading this list for years. This post has really struck a nerve with me!
>
> I agree with Sandra on many points.
>
> Your child is 2 years old. She cannot do many things on her own. She needs you! You are not her slave! You are a mom!!!! Seems like you aren't fit to be a mom, to me. I hate to be harsh, but you don't sound like a loving mom.
>
> Was your child planned?
>
> I feel truly sorry for your child and not for you at all. You have the ability and the resources to raise your child with love and to give her everything she needs, but apparently, the one thing she needs the most is unconditional love from her mother. It seems that you cannot give this to your child, or you don't want to do so. Being a parent to a very young child is demanding at times, can be hard at times. My son has severe Asperger's Syndrome and I'm sure you have read about parenting autistic children. He's far more demanding and difficult than your daughter seems, but with every motion and everything I do, I love him unconditionally and I do not ever resent him. I don't see myself as a slave, especially when he was 2 years old!!!!It also seems to me that your daughter might sense the resentment and lack of unconditional love and she's reaching out, demanding that love!
>
> One more thing, why is your husband not parenting your child also? Your child is 2 years old. She does not understand the concepts of "being on" or what not (the other things you mentioned). Seems like you have more issues than we are seeing here. Don't put so much onto your child. Don't assume she's thinking at a higher level. She's acting on instinct and she wants her mom to love her fully and to keep her full. You are her best friend, her confidant and her love. Give into her fully and stop resenting the most wonderful person in your life!
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "rachael_copp_cohen" <r.copp.cohen@> wrote:
> >
> > I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
> >
> > ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get very different answers from each. ---------------
> >
> > My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents, aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
> >
> > I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom, personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my husband.
> >
> > I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice. But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have enough left over for my spouse and myself.
> >
> > I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
> >
> > Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the severity of the situation.)
> >
> > But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need a break.
> >
> > We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.
> >
> > What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst critic.
> >
> > Thank you so much in advance,
> > Rachael
> >
>

rachael_copp_cohen

For the last two years my husband has been very preoccupied. He was in graduate school full time and worked full time last year (after he and I simultaneously lost our nonprofit fundraising part-time jobs that allowed us to split child care). So, juggling those responsibilities kept him very focused on the things he needed to accomplish and left him little energy to concentrate on his family relationships. I understood that cognitively, but emotionally resented him for "checking out". (Regardless, he has never been able to help much with the actual child care, as my daughter has always had an extreme mom-preference, which is another thing that has driven me bonkers!!!)

Now that he has finished graduate school (the reason for our move to NJ - for a new job), we are trying to focus our energy on repairing our marriage. He is completely supportive of sending her outside the home if it will allow me to regroup and be able to treat him with more patience and kindness. I think we are both on the same page at the moment.

--- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Rachel,
>
> First of all , I truly empathise with what you are going through in your
> life. I am an Indian woman and felt many of the things that you have just
> written about when my younger one was that small.
>
> I can say many things, but I would let that be for the time being. Please
> read my piece on unschooling partnerships that Sandra put up for those who
> could get some help from my experience.
>
> I am Dola Dasgupta-Banerji from New Delhi, India. Unschooling mom for 8
> year old and 4 year old. here I would like this group to know how does your
> spouse feel about all this?
>
> Lots of courage
> Dola
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:51 AM, rachael_copp_cohen
> <r.copp.cohen@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I am in Crisis and need guidance from a group of people who I truly trust
> > and admire, though I just cannot seem to emulate.
> >
> > ------------- I am crossposting this message (I also sent it to Always
> > Unschooled) because I sense two very different atmospheres in these groups
> > and although there is overlap in membership, I feel it is likely I will get
> > very different answers from each. ---------------
> >
> > My daughter is turning 3 in three weeks. For three years I have felt like
> > her slave. It has been extremely difficult to find the "joy" in mothering
> > her. With me she is needy and demanding. With my husband, her grandparents,
> > aunts, and other relatives, she gives them a break. I feel a lot of
> > resentment about that. Her emotional demands on me are never ending. It's
> > like she expects me to "on", perfect, and infallible at all times. I'm not
> > supposed to talk on the phone, use the computer, read the mail, let the dog
> > out, run errands, make meals, clean the house, pay bills, or direct my
> > attention to anything but her... EVER. EVER. EVER. Forget getting dressed in
> > more than 3 minutes, actually taking a second to look in the mirror, or
> > sleeping an entire night without her waking me. And I don't even have the
> > energy to get into the extended breastfeeding discussion. Basically, if I
> > could cut off my breasts so that she would stop nursing to sleep - I WOULD.
> >
> > I have nothing left for me and nothing left for my husband. We just got
> > back from a weekend-long marriage counseling retreat (Retrouvaille - I
> > highly recommend it and learned about it on the unschooling partnerships
> > group) and it is suddenly so clear to me that my constant giving to our
> > daughter has come at the expense of my own sanity and the future viability
> > of our marriage. I don't want to lose my spouse, and I especially don't want
> > to lose myself! In my daughter's absence this weekend (the first time we
> > have ever spent apart), I was able to feel a great sense of freedom,
> > personhood, individuality, and self determination. In order for my marriage
> > to work well, I need to feel good about me, in order to feel good about my
> > husband.
> >
> > I am determined to make a change in my life, so that I can be a better
> > wife, and in being a better wife, a better mother. It would be much easier
> > to keep things the way they are, because that doesn't require action and
> > planning and FEAR that i'm doing the Wrong thing, making the wrong choice.
> > But I so want to be a better person, for my husband and for myself, and I
> > think that making a change in my relationship with my daughter is going to
> > be necessary to do that. I can not be her Everything if I am going to have
> > enough left over for my spouse and myself.
> >
> > I read suggestions, weekly at least, to get a mothers' helper a few hours a
> > week, or switch off with babysitting someone else's kids, or get a
> > babysitter every so often. Folks, that's not going to cut it. My time away
> > from my daughter this weekend left me wanting more - So Much More. I didn't
> > want to come back. I Really Need A Break.
> >
> > Please understand that I really DO BELIEVE in unschooling and it kills me
> > that I am highly considering sending her to a program (one trained
> > Montessori teacher, in her home, five kids, Montessori classroom set-up in
> > her living room, playroom and kitchen, 3 hours in the morning, 3 or 5 days a
> > week). In no way would I be sending her because "it's good for her". She'd
> > rather be at home, of course. And she has no need to go to a school-like
> > setting or someone else's home to learn. And I'd hate myself for taking away
> > her opportunity to be "Always Unschooled". (And, it's not like we even
> > actually have the money for it - but my wonderful husband recognizes the
> > severity of the situation.)
> >
> > But I truly do not feel like I can make it this way. I am so overcommitted
> > to her, there is absolutely nothing left in me for myself or others. I need
> > a break.
> >
> > We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a
> > support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even
> > knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months,
> > even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for
> > help in hard times.
> >
> > What other option do I have besides sending her somewhere so I can have
> > time to take care of myself? I look forward to your words of wisdom and ask
> > in advance, Please be kind. This is a last ditch effort at making
> > unschooling work. It won't really be much help to me if you are harsh or
> > judging, as all I have ever tried to do was my best, and I am my own worst
> > critic.
> >
> > Thank you so much in advance,
> > Rachael
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thank you for this. This is the validation I was looking for. Yes,
perhaps I posted just to get validation.-=-

That is not the purpose of this list.
The validation you're looking for will not make you a better mother.

-=-There is no one else in my real world that would have been able to
give me that validation-=-

There is no one here who is able to give you that validation, either.
You're fishing for approval and attention and "support."

-=-I needed "permission", if you will, from the group of people that I
have been measuring my "success" against.-=-

"Permission" to be an adult and to make decisions for the good of your
family? I don't think any unschooling writings could have, or have
tried to, take that away from you.


http://sandradodd.com/support
Those are the kinds of messages moms want for "validation." They are
not the purpose of the Always Learning list.

-=- I have breasts that make milk (FAR FAR TOO MUCH, which was the
initial cause of most of my resentment over breastfeeding -- the Pain,
ongoing, every day, without end), so I nursed her, despite the never-
ending mastitis, tender nipples (to this day), and flowing fountains
of sticky mess. I didn't see stopping as an option.-=-

I wish you had seen going to La Leche League as an option, or hiring a
lactation consultant so you could have gotten help with those
problems. If there has been pain without end for nearly three years
and you didn't get help, that's a problem you might want to look at,
because the same pride (or inability to really take help without
directing people) could bite you in the butt again.

-=-No, I have been a stressed out mess from day one. I sometimes
wonder how life would have been different if I had never read AP
books. When I come upon something that strikes me as right or good (ie
environmental stewardship, healthy eating,) I am going to make every
effort under the sun to commit myself to it.-=-

Commitment without understanding creates a stressed out mess, pretty
surely.

-=-But unlike when I reduce my energy consumption or eat vegetarian, I
can't actually control what happens on the other end of AP/
unschooling. -=-

You can't control what happens on the other end of ANYthing. It
sounds like you want to control the environment, your body, and this
list. Bummer.

If you could relax and find some humility, that would help you and
your family.

I'm guessing there are things they told you in the marriage
counselling weekend that you're avoiding doing, while you're reading
and writing on this list. This has the feel of avoidance, of
misdirection. I really can't imagine that Retrouvaille said "Keep
doggedly on the same path you were on, unless you get validation from
those by whom you were measuring your "success" to change."

Would it be better for your marriage and your family if you spent this
time with them? You don't seem interested in the purpose of the
Always Learning list, really.

-=- So did that make it a rant or a vent? I don't know.-=-

Neither was appropriate for this list.

If you decide not to look back at the Retrouvaille recommendations
(priorities!!!) this is still there:
http://sandradodd.com/support

But I think you should go for relationship improvement, and
understanding, and living in the moment instead of in the imagined
light of other people's approval.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rachael_copp_cohen

We made a move from Upstate NY to Florida two years ago (for graduate school for my husband), so I'm pretty familiar with the "get to know the new community" routine. I joined meet-up groups and our local synagogue, went to all the parks and kid-friendly locations, got on the local unschooling listserv... ultimately, I couldn't find any unschoolers (or like minded mamas) anywhere nearby. All the other 2 year olds were in preschool programs already and moms were either at work or at the spa (NO JOKE!). Perhaps our next community will offer an easier entree. My comments only reflected my fear of difficulty based on our last experience.

--- In [email protected], "alexandriapalonia" <alexandriapalonia@...> wrote:
>
> > We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.
> > Rachael
>
> I think this is key to what you wrote -- and I think it's wrong.
>
> It does not take years to find friends and local support -- but it does take putting yourself out there, finding the groups (see Joyce's links), and joining in so you can make connections and make friends.
>
> I think this is key to what you wrote because you're suddenly stranded with your daughter, and feeling the loneliness and loss of the move.
>
> The other thing that you wrote that I think is key is that you don't want your daughter to miss the chance to be "always unschooled." I think it's probably more important for her to miss the chance to be the child whose parents were "always divorced" or to miss the chance to be the kid whose mother "always resented her." Besides, she's THREE -- unschooling isn't something you're really doing until she would be going to school -- a few hours playing with other toddlers in a Montessori setting is just that: some toddlers playing.
>
> Take the big drinks of water you need now -- Joyce is right -- you won't need them forever . . . but your daughter will sure appreciate having an intact family forever.
>
> Andrea
>

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Rachel,
The only advice I like to give is...ignore *all* advice. The only person
who can make this siuation work is you. So really, and truly parenting is
flying without a net. If at all possible be in the moment with your child.
No formula or book can help:-)
I did not Attachment Parent--I made gentle peaceful decisions from a place
of love. People said what I did was attachment parenting, but I wasn't
interested in formulas, or experts. I met parents who checklisted their way
through AP, and unschooling and honestly it doesn't work. Have a principle
or preferences and even articulate them aloud if you must;; though once you
are playing by rules you will be sunk, irrespective if the rules are your
own.

I am unschooling the same way as I breastfed and do everything else, by
generally connecting with others who seem to be on my wavelength, but I
think for myself. So...no advice.

On a completely off topic note....get help with breastfeeding. It shouldn't
hurt and if you are still leaking with a two year old you may have a benign
cyst or a medical issue.

Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

should have appeared in my email...sorry it got deleted after I proofread
it.
Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am sorry I did not clearly articulate that, in general, my
daughter is quite a happy, fun-loving, and Loved child. She was
planned, wanted, celebrated and loved, and is to this day. -=-

Not only did you not clearly articulate that, you didn't even really
hint at it.

Much of what you wrote would have been better as a personal journal
entry. You could have written it down, gone away for a day, slept,
thought about it, come back and seen what a dark, negative, desperate
thing you had written. But you chose to send it to my list (cross-
posted, as you let us all know).

-=- My internal struggles do not mean that on a daily basis I am not
There, Present, and really Loving her-=-

You didn't describe really loving her, or being present. You
described resentment and a desire for the approval of strangers.

-=-I cannot speak for others, but in my case I know it is possible to
resent a situation but love a person with all of my heart. And I am
quite sure that my daughter knows that as well.-=-

There are better ways to show love than to tell thousands of strangers
that you would like to cut your breasts off rather than nurse your
child.

I am quite sure that you're expecting too much of your daughter in the
way of understanding love.

There have been several links offered in posts to you (probably in
some of the side e-mails, as well). I'm going to ask you to read
those, and try the ideas in them. Don't post on the list anymore for
now. Just read and try the things, and think. See how it works.
Rest. Do other things. Come back and read them again.

Using this list as a journal isn't good. Maybe you have a blog? If
so, invite other unschoolers to help you there. Then you can control
the flow of ideas, delete what you don't like, and so forth. But this
list isn't the place for that.

Here's the thread in whole, so you can check back on those links.

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/56597


Sorry, I left that link out of ending of the last post:

Here's the thread in whole, so you can check back on those links.

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Sandra


Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New
Topic
Messages in this topic (24)

==================
For those who get individual message, the "message in this topic" link
is always a link to the whole thread.
For those who read online, you're in the thread when you're reading it.
For those who get digest... I hope there are easy ways to get back to
the full topic.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This is most of a post that was not allowed through to the list in its
entirety:

From: "rachael_copp_cohen" <r.copp.cohen@...>
Date: August 3, 2010 8:35:56 PM MDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: HELP! Marriage and sanity in jeopardy, going to send 3 yo
to Montessori program


I'm sorry that the dark humor of the "cutting off my breasts" comment
was clearly not portrayed in my email. I recognize the tone of the
email as a whole was pretty desperate, so I can see how this comment
would easily be taken seriously.

Upon reading responses to my post, I can see that I came across as
very one-sided. A monstrous mother with no love to give her child.
Sadly, if you ask anyone that knows me, that couldn't be further from
the truth. People are always shocked at how patient, kind, generous
and loving I am with my daughter. It is on the inside that I am
hurting. (Which is not to say she is not affected, but I daresay not
in the way some have wildly imagined).

================================================================

Posting something that is not honest, sincere and clear is a waste of
the energy of MANY people.



This is a reminder to everyone reading, and to anyone who might want
to post. The information is in a file linked from the front page of
this list.

Posts for the Always Learning list need to fulfill at least one of
these criteria:

-helps lots of people understand unschooling
-asks a question that actually needs an answer
-requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
-helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people
on the list)

ALL posts should be

honest
proofread
sincere
clear

NO posts should be just a "thank you" or "me too" or "cool" or "LOL"

With over two thousand people we don't need greetings and good-byes. Be
here or don't be here, and save posting for important messages to
hundreds of people.

If you don't want to even consider what people are offering as
suggestions, keep that to yourself. THINK about what you've read.
Think privately, and not in a post that hundreds of people will need
to read or ignore. Only post important, useful, honest things.

Thanks,

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Darcel

***We just (this month) moved from Florida to NJ, so it's not like I have a support
system, a group of friends or like-minded moms to lean on, or even knowledge
about child-friendly options in the community. It takes months, even years, to
establish oneself in a community and begin to ask others for help in hard times.***

I have moved three times since 2005.
From Dayton, OH to Cleveland, OH.
From Cleveland to Minnesota, and from Minnesota to Virginia.
I got online and searched Yahoo for Attachment Parenting groups in my city with each move.
I've been here in Virginia for a little over a year now.
My first outing to meet the group was to a passion party one month after we moved here.

I now see these women and their children several times a week.
If you need breastfeeding support, or want to know how to wean your daughter, I suggest looking up a La Leche League meeting in your area.
There you will also find support, and hopefully make new friends.
My 2nd daughter nursed frequently during the night when she was two.
She did not eat much during the day.
If you don't feel up to going to a meeting you can speak to one of the leaders on the phone about your concerns or questions.

***I sometimes wonder how life would have been different if I had never read AP books. When I come upon something that strikes me as right or good (ie environmental stewardship, healthy eating,) I am going to make every effort under the sun to commit myself to it. That is me.***

Are you doing all of these things because you feel that's what Attachment Parenting is?

We don't eat organic, don't have a garden in our backyard. We eat, my kids are healthy and that makes us happy.
We use cloth diapers to save money and because it's good for the environment, but we also keep a pack of disposables for when we don't feel like using the cloth.
Some people co-sleep with the baby or child in another bed in their room, some people have the baby in bed with them.

You need to decide what works and feels right for your family.

I just started reading Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I'm only 34 pages in, but I get what she's saying. I can't wait to read more!
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Our-Children-Ourselves-relationships/dp/1887542329/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280892381&sr=1-1

This is a great post about being better not perfect.
http://justabaldman.blogspot.com/2010/07/in-pursuit-of-better.html


Darcel

k

Yes. I don't know if the OP is in a place to do this yet. It's hard
for me to know sitting where I am and even were I right next to a
person. Same thing.

I am probably what some people think of as silly... as Sandra writes
of the cynic's view. Perhaps I'm "too" enthusiastic to believe. I
gotta be who I am now. I used to wallow in petulance and depression
and mental paralysis. It took a long time but not much effort once I
was able to see my way out of my unknowingly programmatic and
predictable behavior.
It was a real eyeopener to realize that I had already and always been
making decisions and pulling from my own set od choices freely.

Here's an example that relates to freely and fully doing things. It's
possible to wash dishes with cold water and no soap even though I can
make the water hot and soapy. I could just barely rinse and not get
every last bit clean. Almost good enough. Which would be ok if just
wasn't very able or didn't know how to do better. Some people really
do a minimal wash/rinse... it's not evil. Some people give attention
the same way, and even though it isn't the worst thing ever, it could
be better ... especially for the intention to unschool.

~Katherine

On 8/3/10, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>>> If having your daughter with you all the time drives you round the bend,
>>> find
>> ways to joyfully get her doing something somewhere else for a while and be
>> happy
>> in that choice. Make it fully and freely.
>
> AND, when she is with you, give her your attention just as fully and freely.
> If you've been resenting her and thinking of yourself as a slave, then its
> likely you haven't been giving fully and freely, but guardedly and with lots
> of mental reservations - and that's part of what's fueling her clamor for
> your attention.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Here's an example that relates to freely and fully doing things. It's
possible to wash dishes with cold water and no soap even though I can
make the water hot and soapy. I could just barely rinse and not get
every last bit clean. Almost good enough. Which would be ok if just
wasn't very able or didn't know how to do better. Some people really
do a minimal wash/rinse... it's not evil. Some people give attention
the same way, and even though it isn't the worst thing ever, it could
be better ... especially for the intention to unschool.-=-

If there is a rule that the dishwasher must wash each dish in water,
then "the job" is done.

If there is a principle at work that involves the appearance of
cleanliness and a good attempt at sanitation, then soap will help.
And soap doesn't work NEARLY as well in cold water as it does in warm
or hot water. And warm or hot rinse water will air-dry much more
quickly than cold water will (and might be easier to take off with a
towel; don't know for sure, but it seems like it to me).

There is no discussion list to reassure people about half-assed
dishwashing, I hope. Neither should there need to be one to help
people learn to wash dishes.

But parenting in a different isn't as common or as straightforward as
washing dishes is.

Still, there are "just barely" ways and there are better ways.

I like that analogy.
My dishwasher is running and I'm typing. I like that, too. :-)

Sandra

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Marina DeLuca-Howard

<<<There is no discussion list to reassure people about half-assed

> dishwashing, I hope. Neither should there need to be one to help
> people learn to wash dishes.
>
> But parenting in a different isn't as common or as straightforward as
> washing dishes is.
>
> Still, there are "just barely" ways and there are better ways.>>>
>
> The problem is that there are lots of books about parenting--as though
> "parenting" can be packaged and sold. Dishwashing on the other hand seems
> to be self-organized. People muddle through dishwashing. People who can
> figure out if a dish is clean or not, can use their common sense to relate
> to their children, step by step, situation by situation and build a
> relationship.
>
>
But for some reason people cling to rules or prescriptions. I am thinking
> clinging to rules or being closed minded won't serve anyone well if they
> want to unschool.
>


> Unschooling starts with deschooling. Deschooling is when people let go of
> memorizing rules, and tests and right answers. We don't read the Attachment
> Parenting Textbook and then follow it verbatum with our kids if we want to
> build a special unique relationship with the special unique members of our
> families. Anyone searching for points or trying for outside validation is
> trapped in schooly thinking--the equation has an answer, and authorities can
> "pass" you or "fail" you.
>
>
People ultimately need to decide if the better way is something they can
> follow and be honest or realistic. Love is the driving principle, but one's
> goal should be the best relationship with their child, whether they unschool
> or breastfeed. If unschooling or breastfeeding doesn't bring about the
> "best relationship" scenario than holding onto the "rules" and doing it
> poorly is damaging.
>

Marina

>
>
>


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