Training Children or humans.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Since there were a few posts that someone mentioned training
I wanted to bring this up.
Just today I went to see the two replicas/ship museum of Pinta and Nina.
Another homeschooling friend joined us there with her 4 kids.
We have been friends from La Leche since our oldests were around 5 months old
Her number 3, a little boy that was born withing days of my 4.5 yeard old Gigi
lost his quarter playing and started have a little, tiny melt down.
I offer to give him another but she stopped me saying that she does not want
that
kind of behaviour.
She has , in the past, been very sweet and creativy with her kidsw but the more
she has and the older they get
things have shifted to a more controlling way and she is almost like training
them but very sweetly.
Anyways This was posted on a State homeschool list and it really
amazes me that people want to train children like they are dogs
Here is the person answering a question someone posted about her "offering her
services" for the group:
"Nope. I am not looking for more subjects. I am looking for adults
interested in learning to use positive reinforcement to teach their
children. I am looking for people interested in learning to do task
analysis and teach their children to do things step by step with out
nagging.
TAGteach is a revolutionary new method of teaching. The focused,
positive nature of this method yields immediate and stunning results
that are clearly evident to teachers, students and parents. TAG stands
for "Teaching with Acoustical Guidance." The method relies on a
distinctive sound made to mark or "TAG" a moment in time. This sound
becomes an acoustical binary message, a sort of "snapshot" that is
quickly processed by the brain. Regardless of age or application, the
TAG trained student learns to react accurately with lightning speed
while building muscle memory and confidence.
Here are some studies to read if you are interested:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33974647/Morien-ABAI-2010s
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33977977/LLSmr2010LLoar
http://tagteach.blogspot.com
Here is a playlist of You Tube Videos
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AEA42891825AD74F
Here is some research for using the methods with autistic children:
http://www.tagteach.com/autism/
A tag point is a response, action, or position that when accomplished
wins a reward. The reward for performing a tag point correctly is an
audible click made by a handheld clicker. The click, or tag, marks the
exact moment the tag point is executed correctly and gives immediate
and clear feedback to the student or athlete. TAGteach works on the
principle of identifying correct behavior and making it stronger while
ignoring mistakes and allowing them to disappear.
The tag becomes a positive reinforcer through pairing with tangible
rewards (a sticker for example) or as a result of good feelings of
success. Younger students trade their tags in for beads, stickers or
other prizes. Older students and higher level athletes often do not
require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.
Clarity and simplicity are key aspects of TAGteach. A tag point is
defined so that the teacher can easily judge whether the tag point is
achieved and can mark it with a tag. For example, a teacher might say
to a student who is being taught to draw the letter O, “The tag point
is placing your pencil tip at the place where the top of the letter
will be.” Once this has been done correctly several times the teacher
can move on; “The tag point is movement of the pencil tip to the left
to start the letter.” If there is any difficulty and the student does
not succeed after three tries, the teacher will break the skill down
into smaller parts and go back to a previous point of success. With
some students it may be necessary to place a dot at the place where
the letter should start, or to trace letters or to use other prompts
to help the student succeed at first. These prompts can be gradually
faded out as the student improves.
There is no scolding or negativity associated with TAGteach. If the
student hears the tag he knows that the tag point was achieved. If he
doesn’t hear the tag he knows to try again. There is no “better, but…”
in TAGteach. If the tag point is “point your toes during the
handstand” and the student points her toes, but her legs were apart,
the student receives the tag and the teacher does not say “That was
better, but next time try to keep your legs together.” Instead, the
teacher awards the tag for pointed toes and after a few repetitions
says to the student, “Now the tag point is legs together at the top of
the handstand.” The student may forget to point her toes while
thinking about keeping her legs straight. In this case the pointed
toes tag point can be revisited a few times and eventually the student
will achieve a toe point with straight legs without ever being told
that something was wrong. The student learns to self-assess and think
for herself without relying on corrections from the teacher.
__
Robin Sallie
Burnsville, MN
CGC Evaluator # 35566
http://foundations4lifetraining.blogspot.com/
http://tagteachcraft.blogspot.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wanted to bring this up.
Just today I went to see the two replicas/ship museum of Pinta and Nina.
Another homeschooling friend joined us there with her 4 kids.
We have been friends from La Leche since our oldests were around 5 months old
Her number 3, a little boy that was born withing days of my 4.5 yeard old Gigi
lost his quarter playing and started have a little, tiny melt down.
I offer to give him another but she stopped me saying that she does not want
that
kind of behaviour.
She has , in the past, been very sweet and creativy with her kidsw but the more
she has and the older they get
things have shifted to a more controlling way and she is almost like training
them but very sweetly.
Anyways This was posted on a State homeschool list and it really
amazes me that people want to train children like they are dogs
Here is the person answering a question someone posted about her "offering her
services" for the group:
"Nope. I am not looking for more subjects. I am looking for adults
interested in learning to use positive reinforcement to teach their
children. I am looking for people interested in learning to do task
analysis and teach their children to do things step by step with out
nagging.
TAGteach is a revolutionary new method of teaching. The focused,
positive nature of this method yields immediate and stunning results
that are clearly evident to teachers, students and parents. TAG stands
for "Teaching with Acoustical Guidance." The method relies on a
distinctive sound made to mark or "TAG" a moment in time. This sound
becomes an acoustical binary message, a sort of "snapshot" that is
quickly processed by the brain. Regardless of age or application, the
TAG trained student learns to react accurately with lightning speed
while building muscle memory and confidence.
Here are some studies to read if you are interested:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33974647/Morien-ABAI-2010s
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33977977/LLSmr2010LLoar
http://tagteach.blogspot.com
Here is a playlist of You Tube Videos
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AEA42891825AD74F
Here is some research for using the methods with autistic children:
http://www.tagteach.com/autism/
A tag point is a response, action, or position that when accomplished
wins a reward. The reward for performing a tag point correctly is an
audible click made by a handheld clicker. The click, or tag, marks the
exact moment the tag point is executed correctly and gives immediate
and clear feedback to the student or athlete. TAGteach works on the
principle of identifying correct behavior and making it stronger while
ignoring mistakes and allowing them to disappear.
The tag becomes a positive reinforcer through pairing with tangible
rewards (a sticker for example) or as a result of good feelings of
success. Younger students trade their tags in for beads, stickers or
other prizes. Older students and higher level athletes often do not
require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.
Clarity and simplicity are key aspects of TAGteach. A tag point is
defined so that the teacher can easily judge whether the tag point is
achieved and can mark it with a tag. For example, a teacher might say
to a student who is being taught to draw the letter O, “The tag point
is placing your pencil tip at the place where the top of the letter
will be.” Once this has been done correctly several times the teacher
can move on; “The tag point is movement of the pencil tip to the left
to start the letter.” If there is any difficulty and the student does
not succeed after three tries, the teacher will break the skill down
into smaller parts and go back to a previous point of success. With
some students it may be necessary to place a dot at the place where
the letter should start, or to trace letters or to use other prompts
to help the student succeed at first. These prompts can be gradually
faded out as the student improves.
There is no scolding or negativity associated with TAGteach. If the
student hears the tag he knows that the tag point was achieved. If he
doesn’t hear the tag he knows to try again. There is no “better, but…”
in TAGteach. If the tag point is “point your toes during the
handstand” and the student points her toes, but her legs were apart,
the student receives the tag and the teacher does not say “That was
better, but next time try to keep your legs together.” Instead, the
teacher awards the tag for pointed toes and after a few repetitions
says to the student, “Now the tag point is legs together at the top of
the handstand.” The student may forget to point her toes while
thinking about keeping her legs straight. In this case the pointed
toes tag point can be revisited a few times and eventually the student
will achieve a toe point with straight legs without ever being told
that something was wrong. The student learns to self-assess and think
for herself without relying on corrections from the teacher.
__
Robin Sallie
Burnsville, MN
CGC Evaluator # 35566
http://foundations4lifetraining.blogspot.com/
http://tagteachcraft.blogspot.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
in a world where the single most important lesson we can teach our children is
to limit their consumption
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 1:39:39 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Training Children or humans.
Since there were a few posts that someone mentioned training
I wanted to bring this up.
Just today I went to see the two replicas/ship museum of Pinta and Nina.
Another homeschooling friend joined us there with her 4 kids.
We have been friends from La Leche since our oldests were around 5 months old
Her number 3, a little boy that was born withing days of my 4.5 yeard old Gigi
lost his quarter playing and started have a little, tiny melt down.
I offer to give him another but she stopped me saying that she does not want
that
kind of behaviour.
She has , in the past, been very sweet and creativy with her kidsw but the more
she has and the older they get
things have shifted to a more controlling way and she is almost like training
them but very sweetly.
Anyways This was posted on a State homeschool list and it really
amazes me that people want to train children like they are dogs
Here is the person answering a question someone posted about her "offering her
services" for the group:
"Nope. I am not looking for more subjects. I am looking for adults
interested in learning to use positive reinforcement to teach their
children. I am looking for people interested in learning to do task
analysis and teach their children to do things step by step with out
nagging.
TAGteach is a revolutionary new method of teaching. The focused,
positive nature of this method yields immediate and stunning results
that are clearly evident to teachers, students and parents. TAG stands
for "Teaching with Acoustical Guidance." The method relies on a
distinctive sound made to mark or "TAG" a moment in time. This sound
becomes an acoustical binary message, a sort of "snapshot" that is
quickly processed by the brain. Regardless of age or application, the
TAG trained student learns to react accurately with lightning speed
while building muscle memory and confidence.
Here are some studies to read if you are interested:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33974647/Morien-ABAI-2010s
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33977977/LLSmr2010LLoar
http://tagteach.blogspot.com
Here is a playlist of You Tube Videos
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AEA42891825AD74F
Here is some research for using the methods with autistic children:
http://www.tagteach.com/autism/
A tag point is a response, action, or position that when accomplished
wins a reward. The reward for performing a tag point correctly is an
audible click made by a handheld clicker. The click, or tag, marks the
exact moment the tag point is executed correctly and gives immediate
and clear feedback to the student or athlete. TAGteach works on the
principle of identifying correct behavior and making it stronger while
ignoring mistakes and allowing them to disappear.
The tag becomes a positive reinforcer through pairing with tangible
rewards (a sticker for example) or as a result of good feelings of
success. Younger students trade their tags in for beads, stickers or
other prizes. in a world where the single most important lesson we can teach our
children is to limit their consumption
Clarity and simplicity are key aspects of TAGteach. A tag point is
defined so that the teacher can easily judge whether the tag point is
achieved and can mark it with a tag. For example, a teacher might say
to a student who is being taught to draw the letter O, “The tag point
is placing your pencil tip at the place where the top of the letter
will be.” Once this has been done correctly several times the teacher
can move on; “The tag point is movement of the pencil tip to the left
to start the letter.” If there is any difficulty and the student does
not succeed after three tries, the teacher will break the skill down
into smaller parts and go back to a previous point of success. With
some students it may be necessary to place a dot at the place where
the letter should start, or to trace letters or to use other prompts
to help the student succeed at first. These prompts can be gradually
faded out as the student improves.
There is no scolding or negativity associated with TAGteach. If the
student hears the tag he knows that the tag point was achieved. If he
doesn’t hear the tag he knows to try again. There is no “better, but…”
in TAGteach. If the tag point is “point your toes during the
handstand” and the student points her toes, but her legs were apart,
the student receives the tag and the teacher does not say “That was
better, but next time try to keep your legs together.” Instead, the
teacher awards the tag for pointed toes and after a few repetitions
says to the student, “Now the tag point is legs together at the top of
the handstand.” The student may forget to point her toes while
thinking about keeping her legs straight. In this case the pointed
toes tag point can be revisited a few times and eventually the student
will achieve a toe point with straight legs without ever being told
that something was wrong. The student learns to self-assess and think
for herself without relying on corrections from the teacher.
__
Robin Sallie
Burnsville, MN
CGC Evaluator # 35566
http://foundations4lifetraining.blogspot.com/
http://tagteachcraft.blogspot.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to limit their consumption
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 1:39:39 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Training Children or humans.
Since there were a few posts that someone mentioned training
I wanted to bring this up.
Just today I went to see the two replicas/ship museum of Pinta and Nina.
Another homeschooling friend joined us there with her 4 kids.
We have been friends from La Leche since our oldests were around 5 months old
Her number 3, a little boy that was born withing days of my 4.5 yeard old Gigi
lost his quarter playing and started have a little, tiny melt down.
I offer to give him another but she stopped me saying that she does not want
that
kind of behaviour.
She has , in the past, been very sweet and creativy with her kidsw but the more
she has and the older they get
things have shifted to a more controlling way and she is almost like training
them but very sweetly.
Anyways This was posted on a State homeschool list and it really
amazes me that people want to train children like they are dogs
Here is the person answering a question someone posted about her "offering her
services" for the group:
"Nope. I am not looking for more subjects. I am looking for adults
interested in learning to use positive reinforcement to teach their
children. I am looking for people interested in learning to do task
analysis and teach their children to do things step by step with out
nagging.
TAGteach is a revolutionary new method of teaching. The focused,
positive nature of this method yields immediate and stunning results
that are clearly evident to teachers, students and parents. TAG stands
for "Teaching with Acoustical Guidance." The method relies on a
distinctive sound made to mark or "TAG" a moment in time. This sound
becomes an acoustical binary message, a sort of "snapshot" that is
quickly processed by the brain. Regardless of age or application, the
TAG trained student learns to react accurately with lightning speed
while building muscle memory and confidence.
Here are some studies to read if you are interested:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33974647/Morien-ABAI-2010s
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33977977/LLSmr2010LLoar
http://tagteach.blogspot.com
Here is a playlist of You Tube Videos
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AEA42891825AD74F
Here is some research for using the methods with autistic children:
http://www.tagteach.com/autism/
A tag point is a response, action, or position that when accomplished
wins a reward. The reward for performing a tag point correctly is an
audible click made by a handheld clicker. The click, or tag, marks the
exact moment the tag point is executed correctly and gives immediate
and clear feedback to the student or athlete. TAGteach works on the
principle of identifying correct behavior and making it stronger while
ignoring mistakes and allowing them to disappear.
The tag becomes a positive reinforcer through pairing with tangible
rewards (a sticker for example) or as a result of good feelings of
success. Younger students trade their tags in for beads, stickers or
other prizes. in a world where the single most important lesson we can teach our
children is to limit their consumption
Clarity and simplicity are key aspects of TAGteach. A tag point is
defined so that the teacher can easily judge whether the tag point is
achieved and can mark it with a tag. For example, a teacher might say
to a student who is being taught to draw the letter O, “The tag point
is placing your pencil tip at the place where the top of the letter
will be.” Once this has been done correctly several times the teacher
can move on; “The tag point is movement of the pencil tip to the left
to start the letter.” If there is any difficulty and the student does
not succeed after three tries, the teacher will break the skill down
into smaller parts and go back to a previous point of success. With
some students it may be necessary to place a dot at the place where
the letter should start, or to trace letters or to use other prompts
to help the student succeed at first. These prompts can be gradually
faded out as the student improves.
There is no scolding or negativity associated with TAGteach. If the
student hears the tag he knows that the tag point was achieved. If he
doesn’t hear the tag he knows to try again. There is no “better, but…”
in TAGteach. If the tag point is “point your toes during the
handstand” and the student points her toes, but her legs were apart,
the student receives the tag and the teacher does not say “That was
better, but next time try to keep your legs together.” Instead, the
teacher awards the tag for pointed toes and after a few repetitions
says to the student, “Now the tag point is legs together at the top of
the handstand.” The student may forget to point her toes while
thinking about keeping her legs straight. In this case the pointed
toes tag point can be revisited a few times and eventually the student
will achieve a toe point with straight legs without ever being told
that something was wrong. The student learns to self-assess and think
for herself without relying on corrections from the teacher.
__
Robin Sallie
Burnsville, MN
CGC Evaluator # 35566
http://foundations4lifetraining.blogspot.com/
http://tagteachcraft.blogspot.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
Ugh! I'm sooooo sorry for that last post! That was NOT supposed to happen!
This is what I was intending....
***Older students and higher level athletes often do not
require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.***
Perhaps that might achieve results... but at what cost? It might actually work
until the teenager tells the parents to F off. That would be the huge potential
downside!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is what I was intending....
***Older students and higher level athletes often do not
require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.***
Perhaps that might achieve results... but at what cost? It might actually work
until the teenager tells the parents to F off. That would be the huge potential
downside!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
You know it reminds me of a technique that my husband uses with race
car drivers. When the driver wants to get in "the zone" he or she can
trigger a certain response (through memory or recent performance) with
a word or image.
However, the key here is that the individual is the one who wants to
do it. It's not being done *to* them.
I say "eww" when I read that tag stuff. It's the same feeling I had
when I first read "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor (a La Leche
League-approved book). I couldn't get the clicker training idea out of
my mind. Maybe that's where this person got her ideas. "Tagteachcraft"
indeed. Double "eww."
Robin B.
car drivers. When the driver wants to get in "the zone" he or she can
trigger a certain response (through memory or recent performance) with
a word or image.
However, the key here is that the individual is the one who wants to
do it. It's not being done *to* them.
I say "eww" when I read that tag stuff. It's the same feeling I had
when I first read "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor (a La Leche
League-approved book). I couldn't get the clicker training idea out of
my mind. Maybe that's where this person got her ideas. "Tagteachcraft"
indeed. Double "eww."
Robin B.
On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
> Ugh! I'm sooooo sorry for that last post! That was NOT supposed to
> happen!
> This is what I was intending....
>
> ***Older students and higher level athletes often do not
> require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
> by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.***
>
> Perhaps that might achieve results... but at what cost? It might
> actually work
> until the teenager tells the parents to F off. That would be the
> huge potential
> downside!
Sandra Dodd
-=-You know it reminds me of a technique that my husband uses with race
car drivers. When the driver wants to get in "the zone" he or she can
trigger a certain response (through memory or recent performance) with
a word or image.
However, the key here is that the individual is the one who wants to
do it. It's not being done *to* them.-=-
When I was teaching 9th grade a girl requested help to stop an
unconscious habit. I explained conditioning to the kids in the class,
and asked them to help her without making a deal about it, without
teasing her. She used to make a tongue noise, like a click or "tsk"
just before she spoke, and sometimes when she was thinking. Other
girls, especially, took it as an insult, and sometimes it did come
across that way, because if someone asked her for something or to do
something she would first "tsk" and then say "okay," which made it
sound like "OH BROTHER, okay, whatever" to people who didn't know
her. She knew it was harming her reputation and communications.
What we did was whenever she made that sound, others made it too.
Didn't look at her, just clicked quietly. After a few days the
behavior was extinguished. I think it's because she did it for
herself in her head, like she internalized a group of people doing it
right after her, and "trained" us not to do it!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
car drivers. When the driver wants to get in "the zone" he or she can
trigger a certain response (through memory or recent performance) with
a word or image.
However, the key here is that the individual is the one who wants to
do it. It's not being done *to* them.-=-
When I was teaching 9th grade a girl requested help to stop an
unconscious habit. I explained conditioning to the kids in the class,
and asked them to help her without making a deal about it, without
teasing her. She used to make a tongue noise, like a click or "tsk"
just before she spoke, and sometimes when she was thinking. Other
girls, especially, took it as an insult, and sometimes it did come
across that way, because if someone asked her for something or to do
something she would first "tsk" and then say "okay," which made it
sound like "OH BROTHER, okay, whatever" to people who didn't know
her. She knew it was harming her reputation and communications.
What we did was whenever she made that sound, others made it too.
Didn't look at her, just clicked quietly. After a few days the
behavior was extinguished. I think it's because she did it for
herself in her head, like she internalized a group of people doing it
right after her, and "trained" us not to do it!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
She indeed is a dog trainer. But I have bred, showed or trained dogs for over 30
years and I don't
see it how it a mother would think of training her child as they do a dog.
I actually read about studies that contradict the results she wrote about.
Anyone can read in Daniel Pink and Alfie Kohn's work about those studies. '
Here is Daniel Pink talk on TED
http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
years and I don't
see it how it a mother would think of training her child as they do a dog.
I actually read about studies that contradict the results she wrote about.
Anyone can read in Daniel Pink and Alfie Kohn's work about those studies. '
Here is Daniel Pink talk on TED
http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
What a title! "Don't Shoot the Dog" ???!
It's real life Skinnerism at work:
"Clicker training was originated through Marian Bailey (neé Kruse) and
Keller Breland, who as graduate students of psychologist and eminent
behaviorist B.F. Skinner taught wild-caught pigeons to bowl while
participating in military research.[1] According to their work, animal
training was being needlessly hindered because traditional methods of
praise and reward did not inform the animal of success with enough
promptness and precision to create the required cognitive connections
for speedy learning. Similar methods were later used in training at
least 140 species including whales, bears, lions and domestic dogs and
cats, and even humans (TAGteach)." from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clicker_training
~Katherine
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
It's real life Skinnerism at work:
"Clicker training was originated through Marian Bailey (neé Kruse) and
Keller Breland, who as graduate students of psychologist and eminent
behaviorist B.F. Skinner taught wild-caught pigeons to bowl while
participating in military research.[1] According to their work, animal
training was being needlessly hindered because traditional methods of
praise and reward did not inform the animal of success with enough
promptness and precision to create the required cognitive connections
for speedy learning. Similar methods were later used in training at
least 140 species including whales, bears, lions and domestic dogs and
cats, and even humans (TAGteach)." from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clicker_training
~Katherine
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> You know it reminds me of a technique that my husband uses with race
> car drivers. When the driver wants to get in "the zone" he or she can
> trigger a certain response (through memory or recent performance) with
> a word or image.
> However, the key here is that the individual is the one who wants to
> do it. It's not being done *to* them.
>
> I say "eww" when I read that tag stuff. It's the same feeling I had
> when I first read "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor (a La Leche
> League-approved book). I couldn't get the clicker training idea out of
> my mind. Maybe that's where this person got her ideas. "Tagteachcraft"
> indeed. Double "eww."
>
> Robin B.
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
>
>> Ugh! I'm sooooo sorry for that last post! That was NOT supposed to
>> happen!
>> This is what I was intending....
>>
>> ***Older students and higher level athletes often do not
>> require a tangible primary reinforcer, since they are reinforced just
>> by receiving the immediate and clear feedback from the tag.***
>>
>> Perhaps that might achieve results... but at what cost? It might
>> actually work
>> until the teenager tells the parents to F off. That would be the
>> huge potential
>> downside!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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k
I have heard several horse owners say they don't like clicker
training. Not sure why. (Never paid much attention.) But I bet my
sister knows. Now I'm curious, and I may bring it up sometime to see
what she says.
~Katherine
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:39 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
training. Not sure why. (Never paid much attention.) But I bet my
sister knows. Now I'm curious, and I may bring it up sometime to see
what she says.
~Katherine
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:39 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> She indeed is a dog trainer. But I have bred, showed or trained dogs for over 30
> years and I don't
> see it how it a mother would think of training her child as they do a dog.
> I actually read about studies that contradict the results she wrote about.
> Anyone can read in Daniel Pink and Alfie Kohn's work about those studies. '
> Here is Daniel Pink talk on TED
>
> http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
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Robin Bentley
> Anyone can read in Daniel Pink and Alfie Kohn's work about thoseHey, Daniel Pink writes about unschooling and includes Sandra's site!
> studies. '
> Here is Daniel Pink talk on TED
>
> http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/
Well, the wrong address in the first printing, but hopefully it's been
sorted out by now <g>.
Robin B.
Robin Bentley
The book is "Drive."
>Robin B.
> Hey, Daniel Pink writes about unschooling and includes Sandra's site!
plaidpanties666
k <katherand@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>I don't know about horses per se, but one of the side-effects of classical conditioning (beyond the ethics of it all) is that it can lead to more superstitious behavior. That's something you see in pigeons pretty strongly - they'll rehearse minutes worth of behavior to receive the "reward" and have to be sort of back-trained to extinct all but the desired respons. Rats are a bit more on-the-ball than pigeons, but will also show superstitious behaviors in response to classical conditioning.
> I have heard several horse owners say they don't like clicker
> training. Not sure why.
---Meredith
Bun
I looked at a couple of the TAG video clips yesterday - one of using it to teach skipping, one of using it for training someone to do cartwheels and one using it to help someone learn how to write. I am surprised and wonder why people wouldn't say "point your toes" or "straighten your legs" when trying to help someone do a cartwheel or say "down, down, up" when trying to remind someone how to form a certain letter? Using the clicker (tag training) seems so impersonal and unattached..cold. I teach ballet and can't imagine clicking instead of using a kind, encouraging voice with dancers. I would think it would feel much nicer too to connect with others and speak to them. Laurie
k
>>>Using the clicker (tag training) seems so impersonal andunattached..cold.<<<
I agree. What might be a bonus in maintaining objectivity in a scientific
experiment would be a huge minus in a parent/child or instructor/pupil
situation.
It might be helpful at times when one wants objectivity though... by choice
and then stopped when one no longer wants objectivity.
~Katherine
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Bun <alohabun@...> wrote:
>
> I looked at a couple of the TAG video clips yesterday - one of using it to
> teach skipping, one of using it for training someone to do cartwheels and
> one using it to help someone learn how to write. I am surprised and wonder
> why people wouldn't say "point your toes" or "straighten your legs" when
> trying to help someone do a cartwheel or say "down, down, up" when trying to
> remind someone how to form a certain letter? Using the clicker (tag
> training) seems so impersonal and unattached..cold. I teach ballet and
> can't imagine clicking instead of using a kind, encouraging voice with
> dancers. I would think it would feel much nicer too to connect with others
> and speak to them. Laurie
>
>
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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