knee-jerk, visceral reactions
Angela
I've been reading for months, but have posted only once. I am Angela, mother to three kids: Joseph, 8; Hannah, 5; and Miriam, 2 1/2.
A couple behavior-type issues have pooped up recently that I need help with. I know I'm not reacting in a helpful way. I feel like they are bringing up stuff from my childhood, and that seems to be getting in the way of my doing anything that is remotely helpful.
My 8YO has recently discovered spit bubbles. I remember spit bubbles and liking to make them. But what I remember more is how my oldest sister used to torment me by pinning me down and letting her spit drip out of her mouth and sucking it up just at the last minute. Except of course for the times that she didn't do it in time and it dropped right in my face. So even though Joseph is keeping his spit to himself -- you know, other than the fact that he can't resist doing it anywhere, anytime including the dinner table and in the middle of conversations -- all I can picture is spit being dripped in my face. I feel like I'm constantly hissing at him to stop it. I've been trying to give him a more gentle "keep it in your mouth, please." But when he has continued, I have sent him away from the dinner table. I get frustrated and/or embarrassed when he does it in the middle of conversations with me or other adults.
So what's a constructive way to deal with it? I know it's not fair that I'm heaping my sisters behavior on him, making his current (and likely fleeting) fascination with the texture and surface tension of his own saliva into something that it's not. But I can't help the fact that it grosses me out, and I'm letting that get in the way of any sort of constructive redirection in the situations when it really isn't appropriate for him to be doing it. Thoughts?
The other issue we have going on over here is that my 5YO has taken to tormenting my 2 1/2YO. She seems to thrill in scaring her. Sometimes it's with hiding and jumping out at her. And sometimes it following her around slowly with a blank expression (with or without noise), sort of zombie-like. I think there are a couple of things going on here: Hannah's a little bored with Joseph at camp (though it was happening before, the frequency has picked up), and Miriam was recently injured in an accident. Why I think this may be relative is that the result is at least two-fold: it has made Miriam much more cautious and less thrill-seeking, therefor more sensitive/reactive to that sort of play; and, Miriam has, by necessity, gotten lots of one-on-one attention, even if just for bandage changes and doctor's visits. I think it's hard to be the middle child under the best of circumstances, but having her little sister get so much attention can't help.
I've been trying to stay more on top of the girls when they are together, so that I can jump in and redirect the play if I see it heading in that direction. I've also been trying to give Hannah her own one-on-one attention to try and fill up her emotional cup. BUT when it happens, I react badly. I send her to her room. I lecture. I sometimes yell.
As the youngest of three with a bully for an older sister, I remember that feeling of being tormented (it stretched far beyond the spit). AND I probably AM being more protective of Miriam since the accident.
I've explained to Hannah that I won't let her torment her sister, the same way I wouldn't let Joseph do the same thing to her. I've explained that she doesn't want her relationship with her sister to be one based on fear. But she's 5. I'm not sure my explanations are anything other than noise to her.
So, in the instances of torment that I can't head off at the pass with closer contact and more love, affection, attention, good sources of protein, etc. showered on my middle child, what's the reaction from me that will be most effective?
Thanks. I'm all ears!
Angela
(Joseph, 8; Hannah, 5; and Miriam, 2 1/2)
http://campwolff.blogspot.com/
A couple behavior-type issues have pooped up recently that I need help with. I know I'm not reacting in a helpful way. I feel like they are bringing up stuff from my childhood, and that seems to be getting in the way of my doing anything that is remotely helpful.
My 8YO has recently discovered spit bubbles. I remember spit bubbles and liking to make them. But what I remember more is how my oldest sister used to torment me by pinning me down and letting her spit drip out of her mouth and sucking it up just at the last minute. Except of course for the times that she didn't do it in time and it dropped right in my face. So even though Joseph is keeping his spit to himself -- you know, other than the fact that he can't resist doing it anywhere, anytime including the dinner table and in the middle of conversations -- all I can picture is spit being dripped in my face. I feel like I'm constantly hissing at him to stop it. I've been trying to give him a more gentle "keep it in your mouth, please." But when he has continued, I have sent him away from the dinner table. I get frustrated and/or embarrassed when he does it in the middle of conversations with me or other adults.
So what's a constructive way to deal with it? I know it's not fair that I'm heaping my sisters behavior on him, making his current (and likely fleeting) fascination with the texture and surface tension of his own saliva into something that it's not. But I can't help the fact that it grosses me out, and I'm letting that get in the way of any sort of constructive redirection in the situations when it really isn't appropriate for him to be doing it. Thoughts?
The other issue we have going on over here is that my 5YO has taken to tormenting my 2 1/2YO. She seems to thrill in scaring her. Sometimes it's with hiding and jumping out at her. And sometimes it following her around slowly with a blank expression (with or without noise), sort of zombie-like. I think there are a couple of things going on here: Hannah's a little bored with Joseph at camp (though it was happening before, the frequency has picked up), and Miriam was recently injured in an accident. Why I think this may be relative is that the result is at least two-fold: it has made Miriam much more cautious and less thrill-seeking, therefor more sensitive/reactive to that sort of play; and, Miriam has, by necessity, gotten lots of one-on-one attention, even if just for bandage changes and doctor's visits. I think it's hard to be the middle child under the best of circumstances, but having her little sister get so much attention can't help.
I've been trying to stay more on top of the girls when they are together, so that I can jump in and redirect the play if I see it heading in that direction. I've also been trying to give Hannah her own one-on-one attention to try and fill up her emotional cup. BUT when it happens, I react badly. I send her to her room. I lecture. I sometimes yell.
As the youngest of three with a bully for an older sister, I remember that feeling of being tormented (it stretched far beyond the spit). AND I probably AM being more protective of Miriam since the accident.
I've explained to Hannah that I won't let her torment her sister, the same way I wouldn't let Joseph do the same thing to her. I've explained that she doesn't want her relationship with her sister to be one based on fear. But she's 5. I'm not sure my explanations are anything other than noise to her.
So, in the instances of torment that I can't head off at the pass with closer contact and more love, affection, attention, good sources of protein, etc. showered on my middle child, what's the reaction from me that will be most effective?
Thanks. I'm all ears!
Angela
(Joseph, 8; Hannah, 5; and Miriam, 2 1/2)
http://campwolff.blogspot.com/
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Angela wrote:
Support his need to explore but help him find ways to explore that are
respectful of others. Respecting kids doesn't mean anything they want
to do is fine. Respect means respecting their wants and needs are
important to kids and finding safe and respectful-of-others ways to
explore and meet them.
*But* I suspect there's more going on than just exploration. He has a
whole day to explore his spit. He doesn't need to do it where it
annoys others. His action is communication.
he must to resort to the unpleasant ways he knows are guaranteed to
get your attention. Spend more time *being* with him, connected, aware.
needs her environment stirred up. Enough (attention, stirring,
anything) is when *kids* feel it's enough, not when the parent feels
it's enough.
Invite her along to do important things with you like getting a snack,
helping with lunch, folding laundry or keeping you company. Get them
out of the house to shake up their days.
crisis, would you care?
If the kids feel the grass is greener beyond the fence it doesn't
matter if the fence is forbidden or that there are poisonous snakes in
the grass, what's important is the grass. If the kids feel their grass
is just as green or greener than the snake-ridden grass beyond the
fence, not going beyond the fence will seem like a good idea.
No is just a fence to climb unless kids feel their lives are full to
overflowing with yes and other alternatives.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I feel like I'm constantly hissing at him to stop it.Don't hiss. Don't ask. It's an "Outside. Not at the dinner table."
Support his need to explore but help him find ways to explore that are
respectful of others. Respecting kids doesn't mean anything they want
to do is fine. Respect means respecting their wants and needs are
important to kids and finding safe and respectful-of-others ways to
explore and meet them.
*But* I suspect there's more going on than just exploration. He has a
whole day to explore his spit. He doesn't need to do it where it
annoys others. His action is communication.
> I get frustrated and/or embarrassed when he does it in the middle ofIt sounds like he wants your attention. Give it to him before he feels
> conversations with me or other adults.
he must to resort to the unpleasant ways he knows are guaranteed to
get your attention. Spend more time *being* with him, connected, aware.
> I think it's hard to be the middle child under the best ofThat's the answer. She too needs more attention. Or she's bored and
> circumstances, but having her little sister get so much attention
> can't help.
needs her environment stirred up. Enough (attention, stirring,
anything) is when *kids* feel it's enough, not when the parent feels
it's enough.
Invite her along to do important things with you like getting a snack,
helping with lunch, folding laundry or keeping you company. Get them
out of the house to shake up their days.
> I've explained that she doesn't want her relationship with herIf you're parched and someone starts blathering about the water
> sister to be one based on fear. But she's 5. I'm not sure my
> explanations are anything other than noise to her.
crisis, would you care?
If the kids feel the grass is greener beyond the fence it doesn't
matter if the fence is forbidden or that there are poisonous snakes in
the grass, what's important is the grass. If the kids feel their grass
is just as green or greener than the snake-ridden grass beyond the
fence, not going beyond the fence will seem like a good idea.
No is just a fence to climb unless kids feel their lives are full to
overflowing with yes and other alternatives.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Angela wrote:
You're getting frustrated and angry because you can't control their
behavior. And you can't control them because they're not full. They're
bulls rushing the fence.
Being full doesn't eliminate all the pushing against the fence, of
course, but until you tackle the need for the greener grass push, the
other reasons they'll be pushing will be harder to tackle because
their reserves are lower as are yours.
This might help also:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, in the instances of torment that I can't head off at the passOops, clicked send too soon, though the answer is already there.
> with closer contact and more love, affection, attention, good
> sources of protein, etc. showered on my middle child, what's the
> reaction from me that will be most effective?
You're getting frustrated and angry because you can't control their
behavior. And you can't control them because they're not full. They're
bulls rushing the fence.
Being full doesn't eliminate all the pushing against the fence, of
course, but until you tackle the need for the greener grass push, the
other reasons they'll be pushing will be harder to tackle because
their reserves are lower as are yours.
This might help also:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 21, 2010, at 6:25 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
In the context of a home full of nos, don'ts and rules, "Outside. Not
at the dinner table," is another no, don't rule. From the kids' points
of view, the parents are barriers.
In the context of a home full of yeses and alternatives, "Outside. Not
at the dinner table," is help on figuring out when and where it's okay
to do something. From the kids' points of view, the parents are there
to help them meet their needs so a no (especially when it comes with
alternatives) is a help not a barrier.
There's a big difference between "You must stay in the yard," and
"Here's the edge of our yard. Come get me when you want to go beyond
it so we can go together."
There's a big difference between day's full of "Don't spit at the
table," and days full of variations on "Hang on while we find a way to
do that so it won't bother other people or harm things."
When the kids feel to the core of their being their parents are their
partners and not their adversaries, no sounds completely different.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Don't hiss. Don't ask. It's an "Outside. Not at the dinner table."That sounds like conventional parenting! So I'm sure it's confusing.
In the context of a home full of nos, don'ts and rules, "Outside. Not
at the dinner table," is another no, don't rule. From the kids' points
of view, the parents are barriers.
In the context of a home full of yeses and alternatives, "Outside. Not
at the dinner table," is help on figuring out when and where it's okay
to do something. From the kids' points of view, the parents are there
to help them meet their needs so a no (especially when it comes with
alternatives) is a help not a barrier.
There's a big difference between "You must stay in the yard," and
"Here's the edge of our yard. Come get me when you want to go beyond
it so we can go together."
There's a big difference between day's full of "Don't spit at the
table," and days full of variations on "Hang on while we find a way to
do that so it won't bother other people or harm things."
When the kids feel to the core of their being their parents are their
partners and not their adversaries, no sounds completely different.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Don't hiss. Don't ask. It's an "Outside. Not at the dinner table."
-=-That sounds like conventional parenting! So I'm sure it's
confusing.-=-
It didn't sound like conventional parenting to me. Conventional
parents would probably send him away from the table. Maybe that's
what he wants! Maybe he does not WANT to be "at the dinner table."
Maybe he's not hungry. Maybe he IS hungry but not for that food.
Maybe he's bored.
I thought "he's communicating" was right to the point.
I told my kids in general about all of their inside liquids or private
parts or nose contents: "do it where others can't see you." Or at
least where they don't HAVE to see you, in the case of spitting or
showing people the inside of your mouth.
ALL those gross things:
Half-chewed food
boogers
spit
holding on to one's own penis
scratching one's own butt
smelling one's own arm pit
Anything overtly internal or biological (never used that phrase until
just now)--do it in your own room, or where nobody's looking.
That came under general "be nice." It wasn't "a rule," it was the
principle that others have the right to not be grossed out in their
own home, and NOBODY at ANY dinner table should be grossed out. We
were at a pizza place last week--Marty, Keith and I-- and Keith
started talking about a mystery wound on his arm that he got camping,
and that he knew first because of dried blood. I indicated subtly
that he was too loud and people trying to eat might hear him. That
wasn't about kids at a table. It was about our family's very
longstanding plan not to gross out people who are hungry or trying t
eat.
"Outside" doesn't have to be the only place. In the tub, in the
shower, front yard, porch, while sorting dirty laundry (not clean)...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-That sounds like conventional parenting! So I'm sure it's
confusing.-=-
It didn't sound like conventional parenting to me. Conventional
parents would probably send him away from the table. Maybe that's
what he wants! Maybe he does not WANT to be "at the dinner table."
Maybe he's not hungry. Maybe he IS hungry but not for that food.
Maybe he's bored.
I thought "he's communicating" was right to the point.
I told my kids in general about all of their inside liquids or private
parts or nose contents: "do it where others can't see you." Or at
least where they don't HAVE to see you, in the case of spitting or
showing people the inside of your mouth.
ALL those gross things:
Half-chewed food
boogers
spit
holding on to one's own penis
scratching one's own butt
smelling one's own arm pit
Anything overtly internal or biological (never used that phrase until
just now)--do it in your own room, or where nobody's looking.
That came under general "be nice." It wasn't "a rule," it was the
principle that others have the right to not be grossed out in their
own home, and NOBODY at ANY dinner table should be grossed out. We
were at a pizza place last week--Marty, Keith and I-- and Keith
started talking about a mystery wound on his arm that he got camping,
and that he knew first because of dried blood. I indicated subtly
that he was too loud and people trying to eat might hear him. That
wasn't about kids at a table. It was about our family's very
longstanding plan not to gross out people who are hungry or trying t
eat.
"Outside" doesn't have to be the only place. In the tub, in the
shower, front yard, porch, while sorting dirty laundry (not clean)...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
From Sandra (in response to Joyce):
And in response to Joyce, who said:
I need to figure out a strategy for this: how to fill them up in times of stress and change and new schedules and more (very stressed out) Dad ... without completely depleting myself in the process.
Thanks to you both. You helped me get a little perspective on the situation and gave some good suggestions. Now I need to get busy filling them up. Especially Hannah.
> -=-> Don't hiss. Don't ask. It's an "Outside. Not at the dinner table."It didn't sound like conventional parenting to me either. That is what we are striving for. But somehow I had it set up in my mind like this bigger separate issue that totally sent me backwards until ...
>
> -=-That sounds like conventional parenting! So I'm sure it's
> confusing.-=-
>
> It didn't sound like conventional parenting to me.
> I told my kids in general about all of their inside liquidsTHAT'S IT! That's perfect. (And love the phrase you just coined.) It's EXACTLY like those other things we've dealt with over the years just as you've described. It's that _I_ made it into something more complicated by hoisting my baggage onto it. And then I didn't know what to do with it. Thank you.
> or private parts or nose contents: "do it where others can't
> see you." Or at least where they don't HAVE to see you, in
> the case of spitting or showing people the inside of your mouth.
>
> ALL those gross things:
> Half-chewed food
> boogers
> spit
>
> holding on to one's own penis
> scratching one's own butt
> smelling one's own arm pit
>
> Anything overtly internal or biological (never used that
> phrase until just now)--do it in your own room, or where
> nobody's looking.
And in response to Joyce, who said:
> That's the answer. She too needs more attention. Or she's boredThat last point is a really good and one I need to think about it. Again, it's what we strive for, but we have probably been falling far short lately. It's been a stressful Summer, and as much as I've tried to shelter the kids from the stress, it's pretty likely that I haven't been doing much of anything until *they* feel it's enough.
> and needs her environment stirred up. Enough (attention,
> stirring, anything) is when *kids* feel it's enough, not when
> the parent feels it's enough.
I need to figure out a strategy for this: how to fill them up in times of stress and change and new schedules and more (very stressed out) Dad ... without completely depleting myself in the process.
> Invite her along to do important things with you ...So simple. Why do I forget these things? I did this tonight when I was making dinner. I could tell that their play was breaking down. So I invited her in to make the salad dressing. Instead of Miriam (the youngest) in tears, I had Hannah pleased as punch to be measuring and chopping and cracking eggs and using the blender.
Thanks to you both. You helped me get a little perspective on the situation and gave some good suggestions. Now I need to get busy filling them up. Especially Hannah.