Principles vs. Covert Rules
k
Why no one can honestly say whether some set of morals (vegetarianism,
gun play prohibition, religion) are evil or good for unschooling. Why
each situation is different. Why the answer is almost always "it
depends!"
Here's the question that masks covert rules in a parent's thinking
and, as Joyce Fetteroll mentioned, isn't the right question for
getting a good answer about unschooling: Can you simultaneously be a
good unschooler and stick to your moral of x, y or z?
A better and more effective question to ask is: Does your moral trump
the relationship between parent and child? Knowing to ask such a
question though probably makes asking it moot since the question
itself is based on unschooling principles. People who aren't quite as
clear on unschooling principles are going to end up in conversations
like the following from http://sandradodd.com/rulebound:
******************************
The reason this conversation is really bothering me, is because
Sandra kept responding with other points that had nothing to do with
my one and only question. (Her points are GREAT ones, and ones I in
fact agree with, but they are points about something other that my one
question: Should I give my 4 & 7 year olds that particular game? She
never said Yes (and why) or NO (and why). You might ask yourself if
you were trying to have a conversation with someone and they were
skipping over your particular question, and making lots of other
points that had nothing to do with what you were still trying to talk
about!!! I'm not wound up and defensive and angry. Although I find
myself frustrated, and now on the defense trying to tell you (and
Sandra) that I agree with all those points she made, BUT IT'S NOT WHAT
I'M TALKING ABOUT. That's all.
A question like "should I buy this, yes or no?" isn't the kind of
questions others can answer very well. And if we did, we'd need to say
WHY we thought so, which would involve explaining a principle. And
with all of the best answers, it needs to start, "It depends."
If we answer questions with "yes" and "no," and give people what they
claim to want, or what they think they want, we are chucking fish out
instead of providing information on how to fish, how to make one's own
custom fishing equipment and when and where the fishing is great.
Unschooling can't work as a series of yes/no questions.
Another principle at work. Helping people learn to find their own
answers is vastly superior to distributing answers on demand. And
those who volunteer their time and experience are not willing to hold
other's hands for years or months. They want to empower others.
Empowerment is a principle, not a rule. Learning to examine one's own
life and needs and beliefs is necessary for unschooling to work. When
priorities and principles are coming clearer, such questions as
whether or not to buy a particular game or tool or movie or food are
EASY, simple, happy questions. That's why the mom quoted above didn't
get the simple straight answer she thought she needed. No one wanted
to waste time or energy sending her down the wrong path. ~~Sandra
**************************************
The pivot on which such conversations hinge are unschooling
principles. During my short bit on unschooling lists, the above has
appeared over and over. Unschooling principles are a cornerstone for
getting unschooling. As noted, the above conversation took place in
2004.
In case anyone is wondering (because at one time I did wonder), here
are essential UNSCHOOLING PRINCIPLES. I don't see the date written but
it's been there a while because I read it a while back ... so Pam
wrote these some time ago: http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles.html
Principles are how something works. Unschooling principles are about
how learning works.
Rules are how someone outside something naturally occurring thinks it
works. As such it can be seen as an attempt to understand something
that occurs naturally on its own. Those who understand how something
works can support the working of it. That's where parents come into
the picture of how learning works; they facilitate the learning that's
naturally occurring in their children (and themselves too).
Another way to put it: Rules are external-- outside --naturally
occurring things. Principles are already there at work within a
naturally occurring thing; they're inborn and integral to the thing
itself.
Using Pam's list of principles, learning is ...
Continuous
Uncoerced
Fun
Self-correcting
Easy
Meaningful
Incidental
Connected
Unprovable
Nurtured
~Katherine
gun play prohibition, religion) are evil or good for unschooling. Why
each situation is different. Why the answer is almost always "it
depends!"
Here's the question that masks covert rules in a parent's thinking
and, as Joyce Fetteroll mentioned, isn't the right question for
getting a good answer about unschooling: Can you simultaneously be a
good unschooler and stick to your moral of x, y or z?
A better and more effective question to ask is: Does your moral trump
the relationship between parent and child? Knowing to ask such a
question though probably makes asking it moot since the question
itself is based on unschooling principles. People who aren't quite as
clear on unschooling principles are going to end up in conversations
like the following from http://sandradodd.com/rulebound:
******************************
The reason this conversation is really bothering me, is because
Sandra kept responding with other points that had nothing to do with
my one and only question. (Her points are GREAT ones, and ones I in
fact agree with, but they are points about something other that my one
question: Should I give my 4 & 7 year olds that particular game? She
never said Yes (and why) or NO (and why). You might ask yourself if
you were trying to have a conversation with someone and they were
skipping over your particular question, and making lots of other
points that had nothing to do with what you were still trying to talk
about!!! I'm not wound up and defensive and angry. Although I find
myself frustrated, and now on the defense trying to tell you (and
Sandra) that I agree with all those points she made, BUT IT'S NOT WHAT
I'M TALKING ABOUT. That's all.
A question like "should I buy this, yes or no?" isn't the kind of
questions others can answer very well. And if we did, we'd need to say
WHY we thought so, which would involve explaining a principle. And
with all of the best answers, it needs to start, "It depends."
If we answer questions with "yes" and "no," and give people what they
claim to want, or what they think they want, we are chucking fish out
instead of providing information on how to fish, how to make one's own
custom fishing equipment and when and where the fishing is great.
Unschooling can't work as a series of yes/no questions.
Another principle at work. Helping people learn to find their own
answers is vastly superior to distributing answers on demand. And
those who volunteer their time and experience are not willing to hold
other's hands for years or months. They want to empower others.
Empowerment is a principle, not a rule. Learning to examine one's own
life and needs and beliefs is necessary for unschooling to work. When
priorities and principles are coming clearer, such questions as
whether or not to buy a particular game or tool or movie or food are
EASY, simple, happy questions. That's why the mom quoted above didn't
get the simple straight answer she thought she needed. No one wanted
to waste time or energy sending her down the wrong path. ~~Sandra
**************************************
The pivot on which such conversations hinge are unschooling
principles. During my short bit on unschooling lists, the above has
appeared over and over. Unschooling principles are a cornerstone for
getting unschooling. As noted, the above conversation took place in
2004.
In case anyone is wondering (because at one time I did wonder), here
are essential UNSCHOOLING PRINCIPLES. I don't see the date written but
it's been there a while because I read it a while back ... so Pam
wrote these some time ago: http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles.html
Principles are how something works. Unschooling principles are about
how learning works.
Rules are how someone outside something naturally occurring thinks it
works. As such it can be seen as an attempt to understand something
that occurs naturally on its own. Those who understand how something
works can support the working of it. That's where parents come into
the picture of how learning works; they facilitate the learning that's
naturally occurring in their children (and themselves too).
Another way to put it: Rules are external-- outside --naturally
occurring things. Principles are already there at work within a
naturally occurring thing; they're inborn and integral to the thing
itself.
Using Pam's list of principles, learning is ...
Continuous
Uncoerced
Fun
Self-correcting
Easy
Meaningful
Incidental
Connected
Unprovable
Nurtured
~Katherine
k
I forgot to post this link which is a compilation from lots of
discussions over the years posted on Sandra's website about the
difference between principles and rules: http://sandradodd.com/rules
Something I especially found useful on that page:
***************
Logic and Parenting, by Joyce Fetteroll ("If the reasons behind rules
make sense, then there isn't a reason to make a rule....If the reasons
behind rules are nonsense, then people memorize nonsense...")
***************
~Katherine
discussions over the years posted on Sandra's website about the
difference between principles and rules: http://sandradodd.com/rules
Something I especially found useful on that page:
***************
Logic and Parenting, by Joyce Fetteroll ("If the reasons behind rules
make sense, then there isn't a reason to make a rule....If the reasons
behind rules are nonsense, then people memorize nonsense...")
***************
~Katherine
plaidpanties666
k <katherand@...> wrote:
For some people the ideas behind sharing their strong beliefs with children can be tied in with a desire to connect with their kids, and/or to create a strong sense of family identity. Those ideas aren't necessarily incompatible with unschooling. When they get in the way is when the parent's expression (of values, culture, etc) or the "family identity" override a child's interest in exploring other ideas about the world.
---Meredith
> Can you simultaneously be aNot "your moral" necessarily, but your desire for your child to share that value. That's something that can be difficult to fathom, that one can have very strong morals without being attached to "passing them on" to children.
> good unschooler and stick to your moral of x, y or z?
>
> A better and more effective question to ask is: Does your moral trump
> the relationship between parent and child?
For some people the ideas behind sharing their strong beliefs with children can be tied in with a desire to connect with their kids, and/or to create a strong sense of family identity. Those ideas aren't necessarily incompatible with unschooling. When they get in the way is when the parent's expression (of values, culture, etc) or the "family identity" override a child's interest in exploring other ideas about the world.
---Meredith
k
k <katherand@...> wrote:
I think parents can stick to personal values all day long on a
personal basis and still make lots of room for children to explore
their own set of values, which if respected will probably look a lot
like their parent's with possibly some individual differences. I
already see this to some degree in Karl and this may change very
little or greatly over time. That remains to be seen. :) And even
then, at whatever point one might think he's finished forming his
values, he can still change even more.
~Katherine
> Can you simultaneously be a good unschooler and stick to your moral of x, y or z?That's a much better phrasing of the question.
> A better and more effective question to ask is: Does your moral trump
> the relationship between parent and child?
>>>Not "your moral" necessarily, but your desire for your child to share that value.<<<
I think parents can stick to personal values all day long on a
personal basis and still make lots of room for children to explore
their own set of values, which if respected will probably look a lot
like their parent's with possibly some individual differences. I
already see this to some degree in Karl and this may change very
little or greatly over time. That remains to be seen. :) And even
then, at whatever point one might think he's finished forming his
values, he can still change even more.
~Katherine
Shira Rocklin
k <katherand@.
..> wrote:
That's a much better phrasing of the question.
---------------------------------------
I've been wondering about this in another area. For most areas of life,
morals, and belief, and faith, are mostly something in our heads (and in
our churches/synagogues/mosques, ect). Two people can live together and
belive different things. But, the religion that my husband practices,
dictates what kinds of foods he can eat, that he can't use electricity
on certain days, that he must pray at certain times, etc... and that he
shouldn't aid in someone of the same religion (whether they believe in
it or not) to do something counter to those rules (such as buying food
for that person which does not meet the religious dietary
requirements). This seems like something more than a matter of
morality or faith. When beliefs relate to specific actions (moral
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of life?
I've tried to work it out in my head sometimes, but my logic hasn't
resonated with my husband as of yet. One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. Thats
definitely not the religious community norm here.
Shira
..> wrote:
> Can you simultaneously be a good unschooler and stick to your moralof x, y or z?
> A better and more effective question to ask is: Does your moral trumpshare that value.<<<
> the relationship between parent and child?
>>>Not "your moral" necessarily, but your desire for your child to
That's a much better phrasing of the question.
---------------------------------------
I've been wondering about this in another area. For most areas of life,
morals, and belief, and faith, are mostly something in our heads (and in
our churches/synagogues/mosques, ect). Two people can live together and
belive different things. But, the religion that my husband practices,
dictates what kinds of foods he can eat, that he can't use electricity
on certain days, that he must pray at certain times, etc... and that he
shouldn't aid in someone of the same religion (whether they believe in
it or not) to do something counter to those rules (such as buying food
for that person which does not meet the religious dietary
requirements). This seems like something more than a matter of
morality or faith. When beliefs relate to specific actions (moral
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of life?
I've tried to work it out in my head sometimes, but my logic hasn't
resonated with my husband as of yet. One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. Thats
definitely not the religious community norm here.
Shira
Sandra Dodd
-=-When beliefs relate to specific actions (moral
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of
life? -=-
I think those people could adapt as much of unschooling as they could
into that life, but they would be unlikely to get "the same
results" (the array of benefits) as we discuss on this list.
Some could be way better than none, though!
-=- One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. -=-
There may be an onus on the father as head of the family to maintain
those religious practices within his household. Bummer he married
you! (joking... except for his fulfilling his religious duties :-)
That would complicate things, if it's true.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of
life? -=-
I think those people could adapt as much of unschooling as they could
into that life, but they would be unlikely to get "the same
results" (the array of benefits) as we discuss on this list.
Some could be way better than none, though!
-=- One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. -=-
There may be an onus on the father as head of the family to maintain
those religious practices within his household. Bummer he married
you! (joking... except for his fulfilling his religious duties :-)
That would complicate things, if it's true.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
-=-When beliefs relate to specific actions (moral
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of
life? -=-
I think those people could adapt as much of unschooling as they could
into that life, but they would be unlikely to get "the same
results" (the array of benefits) as we discuss on this list.
Some could be way better than none, though!
--------------------------------
I think I'm going to be thinking about this for a very long time
(considering my husbands commitment). The religion itself is very
flexible in many ways, for every question there are many many opinions
one can follow. And in some areas, the modern group of this religion,
view the old answers as out-of-date (in terms of changes in mathematics,
science, biology, etc). I think there have been significant enough
changes in how we believe children learn these days... the tradition
says its okay to hit a child, but I've yet to hear anyone of authority
say that is right anymore. I think I'm going to hold out hope that it
can be compatible with unschooling, and just keep doing what can be done.
--- There may be an onus on the father as head of the family to maintain
those religious practices within his household. Bummer he married
you! (joking... except for his fulfilling his religious duties :-) ---
In the traditional groups, definitely that is true. I grew up with 'no
unkosher food allowed into this house.' But in reality, a piece of
unkosher food in the house is not going to make the kitchen become
unkosher. I'm trying to imagine interesting scenarios. If my child
wanted to put cheese on their hamburger in our kosher kitchen... I could
offer a paper plate and ask that they inform me if any real utensils got
unkoshered so we could rekosher them. If a teenager wanted to be really
unkosher, they could have a hotplate, microwave, etc, in their own room
- they would maybe understand if my husband wouldn't actually buy those
things for them. But their allowance is theirs to use how they want, in
my head. And they can get jobs.
If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling.
I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission for
her daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
relationship there (or did it?).
Shira
veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of
life? -=-
I think those people could adapt as much of unschooling as they could
into that life, but they would be unlikely to get "the same
results" (the array of benefits) as we discuss on this list.
Some could be way better than none, though!
--------------------------------
I think I'm going to be thinking about this for a very long time
(considering my husbands commitment). The religion itself is very
flexible in many ways, for every question there are many many opinions
one can follow. And in some areas, the modern group of this religion,
view the old answers as out-of-date (in terms of changes in mathematics,
science, biology, etc). I think there have been significant enough
changes in how we believe children learn these days... the tradition
says its okay to hit a child, but I've yet to hear anyone of authority
say that is right anymore. I think I'm going to hold out hope that it
can be compatible with unschooling, and just keep doing what can be done.
--- There may be an onus on the father as head of the family to maintain
those religious practices within his household. Bummer he married
you! (joking... except for his fulfilling his religious duties :-) ---
In the traditional groups, definitely that is true. I grew up with 'no
unkosher food allowed into this house.' But in reality, a piece of
unkosher food in the house is not going to make the kitchen become
unkosher. I'm trying to imagine interesting scenarios. If my child
wanted to put cheese on their hamburger in our kosher kitchen... I could
offer a paper plate and ask that they inform me if any real utensils got
unkoshered so we could rekosher them. If a teenager wanted to be really
unkosher, they could have a hotplate, microwave, etc, in their own room
- they would maybe understand if my husband wouldn't actually buy those
things for them. But their allowance is theirs to use how they want, in
my head. And they can get jobs.
If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling.
I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission for
her daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
relationship there (or did it?).
Shira
k
>>>If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to takedaughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling.<<<
>>>I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission forher daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
relationship there (or did it?).<<<
My opinion is that if enough is flexible then trust can be established
in the relationship so that both parent and child can rely on that
trust. Some people can do most things without as much of a push (other
than the parent's own willingness/desire to move past old patterns).
Other people can do many things but not everything because it involves
more than old patterns a parent wants to drop anyway.
It's interesting that the religion is ok with hitting a child but that
people don't actually recommend it. That wasn't true in the religion I
grew up in. It was actually recommended, and for me I felt that it was
necessary to pretty much lose my religion in order not to mess up the
strong wonderful relationship we were lucky enough to establish in
Karl's infancy. What I'm doing is simpler in most ways than making
unschooling fit that religion but the complexity of flexing here and
not there sounds just like life to me. I've done that so long that
it's second nature since I've never fit perfectly in prescribed roles
anywhere I've been. And that's certainly true in the role of mother to
Karl and partner to both him and his dad.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to
take
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling. -=-
There shouldn't be flexibility there. If the daughter doesn't want to
dress appropriately, she has no business going there.
The problem would be if the dad was "making her go" and she was
dressing inappropriately in an attempt to get him to say "Fine, then
don't go," or "you're not going dressed like that."
If she wants to go, then she'll dress appropriately.
-=-I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission
for
her daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
relationship there (or did it?). -=-
It didn't, but it was all open and sweet and above-board, so that had
to help. She appreciates her dad. He hasn't been mean, arbitrary or
unreasonable. Most teenaged girls I know would have just figured out
a way to do it and tell the dad to get screwed. Before Holly was
even born we were unschooling, and so she landed on a pretty soft
cushion, as families go.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
take
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling. -=-
There shouldn't be flexibility there. If the daughter doesn't want to
dress appropriately, she has no business going there.
The problem would be if the dad was "making her go" and she was
dressing inappropriately in an attempt to get him to say "Fine, then
don't go," or "you're not going dressed like that."
If she wants to go, then she'll dress appropriately.
-=-I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission
for
her daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
relationship there (or did it?). -=-
It didn't, but it was all open and sweet and above-board, so that had
to help. She appreciates her dad. He hasn't been mean, arbitrary or
unreasonable. Most teenaged girls I know would have just figured out
a way to do it and tell the dad to get screwed. Before Holly was
even born we were unschooling, and so she landed on a pretty soft
cushion, as families go.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 7/15/2010 6:43 AM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
religious reasons (we are Baha'is). The kids never rebelled against the
way we do things in our house. I expected they'd drink alcohol, and two
of the three of them have done so or do so - but very little and rarely.
But they are discreet about it - they don't want to do it at home. I'd
think if your kids wanted cheeseburgers, you could make sure they'd have
plenty of chance to have one outside the house and maybe they wouldn't
need to even risk messing with your kosher kitchen.
We had the same thing with more modest dress - my husband is from Iran
and there were times we'd be going to have dinner or visit friends or
relatives of his and we'd ask the kids to dress appropriately for that.
We didn't act like other things they wanted to wear were bad, just that
we dressed differently for different occasions. That wasn't hard and we
had very few times that we ever even had it come up. The only big thing
that's ever happened was recently - Roya is 25 and getting married and,
at first, we were thinking of having the wedding and reception at our
house. But my husband and I do not want to serve alcohol at our house
and they want to have alcohol at the reception. She was disappointed,
but we worked it out and we're having it in her backyard, but we're
doing a lot of work to fix it up and make it a beautiful location.
I don't see unschooling as letting the kids do or have absolutely
everything that they might possibly desire, at the expense of their
parents' feelings or interests. But there is always a sense of finding a
way for things to work out for the kids, too, as opposed to parental
absolutes. I don't think a vegetarian parent has to eat meat because
their kid wants to eat meat. But I think they should find a way for
their kid to eat it, if that's what they want. If they can't bear to
have it in the house, then arrange for their kid to eat out a time or
two a week. Find a way to support the kids' interests. Usually small
children of vegetarians don't complain or want meat in the house - but
might want a piece of pepperoni pizza when they're at Chuck E Cheese or
something like that. So - that seems an easy way to support the kid
without the parent having to fix or cook the meat. When they're older,
they can choose to eat meat at friends' houses and when out of the house
or make it themselves.
If any unschooling vegetarians here are, in fact, having problems with
kids really wanting their mom to buy and cook meat to eat at home, they
can speak up, but I have never heard of anybody having that problem. It
has always been the kids wanting to eat meat elsewhere and the parent
having a problem with that.
What conflicts with unschooling is the parent wanting to have total
control over a kid and be completely unwilling to compromise or even try
to find a way to support the child's interest. It is short-sighted on
the part of the parent to think they can control their kids for very
long, anyway. But, for a parent to want to have a kosher kitchen doesn't
seem unreasonable to me - what would be unreasonable would be to demand
that the kids keep kosher all the time, at home and outside the home.
And, if something like using paper plates for nonkosher foods works -
that's a great solution. What a wonderful example for your kids - being
creative about meeting their own interests while being very considerate
of others' interests. Really sweet.
-pam
> If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to takeWe had things like that --- we don't drink alcohol, for example, for
> daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
> as much flexibility.
religious reasons (we are Baha'is). The kids never rebelled against the
way we do things in our house. I expected they'd drink alcohol, and two
of the three of them have done so or do so - but very little and rarely.
But they are discreet about it - they don't want to do it at home. I'd
think if your kids wanted cheeseburgers, you could make sure they'd have
plenty of chance to have one outside the house and maybe they wouldn't
need to even risk messing with your kosher kitchen.
We had the same thing with more modest dress - my husband is from Iran
and there were times we'd be going to have dinner or visit friends or
relatives of his and we'd ask the kids to dress appropriately for that.
We didn't act like other things they wanted to wear were bad, just that
we dressed differently for different occasions. That wasn't hard and we
had very few times that we ever even had it come up. The only big thing
that's ever happened was recently - Roya is 25 and getting married and,
at first, we were thinking of having the wedding and reception at our
house. But my husband and I do not want to serve alcohol at our house
and they want to have alcohol at the reception. She was disappointed,
but we worked it out and we're having it in her backyard, but we're
doing a lot of work to fix it up and make it a beautiful location.
I don't see unschooling as letting the kids do or have absolutely
everything that they might possibly desire, at the expense of their
parents' feelings or interests. But there is always a sense of finding a
way for things to work out for the kids, too, as opposed to parental
absolutes. I don't think a vegetarian parent has to eat meat because
their kid wants to eat meat. But I think they should find a way for
their kid to eat it, if that's what they want. If they can't bear to
have it in the house, then arrange for their kid to eat out a time or
two a week. Find a way to support the kids' interests. Usually small
children of vegetarians don't complain or want meat in the house - but
might want a piece of pepperoni pizza when they're at Chuck E Cheese or
something like that. So - that seems an easy way to support the kid
without the parent having to fix or cook the meat. When they're older,
they can choose to eat meat at friends' houses and when out of the house
or make it themselves.
If any unschooling vegetarians here are, in fact, having problems with
kids really wanting their mom to buy and cook meat to eat at home, they
can speak up, but I have never heard of anybody having that problem. It
has always been the kids wanting to eat meat elsewhere and the parent
having a problem with that.
What conflicts with unschooling is the parent wanting to have total
control over a kid and be completely unwilling to compromise or even try
to find a way to support the child's interest. It is short-sighted on
the part of the parent to think they can control their kids for very
long, anyway. But, for a parent to want to have a kosher kitchen doesn't
seem unreasonable to me - what would be unreasonable would be to demand
that the kids keep kosher all the time, at home and outside the home.
And, if something like using paper plates for nonkosher foods works -
that's a great solution. What a wonderful example for your kids - being
creative about meeting their own interests while being very considerate
of others' interests. Really sweet.
-pam
Angela
I was actually thinking of this very thing yesterday as it relates to this thread. You are talking about keeping kosher and other tenants of "observant" Judaism, and I will talk in those terms, though as Pam and others pointed out, it could certainly apply to other faiths.
Your point about a child being allowed to mix meat and milk on paper plates, etc. not making the home un-kosher, is a good one, but how does your husband feel about that? I could imagine that that might just be too much to ask of him right now. Or that even if he could accept that, ham or shrimp on paper plates might be too much. If not, then great! But perhaps the child could be given permission to explore dietary choices when visiting friends' homes, shopping at the supermarket, etc. Maybe in this case your husband wouldn't feel comfortable being present for that, at least not right now, but would he be comfortable allowing you to facilitate it?
You described it as your "husband's religion". Where do you fall in your level of observance and support of his, and how does he feel about that? Not a question you need to answer on list. It just jumped out at me.
I grew up in a home where my parents practiced two different religions, and while my parents thought they were raising us to "choose for ourselves" when we got older, my mother's obvious feeling about my father's religion never really left it being open as a true choice for us. As a result my Methodist mother doesn't have the Mormon children I guess she was afraid she'd have; what she has is two Jews (or one Jew and one raising Jewish children) and an atheist. Her judgement didn't attract me to her religion either, and as a religious seeker (some kids are, some kids aren't) I sought something different.
Several people have commented since I started typing this response. I agree with Sandra re appropriate dress for synagogue. Her going should be the choice, not how she dresses when she's there. We are not Orthodox, but even so, my kids get that there are clothes that are appropriate for synagogue, weddings, parties, etc. and don't mind because I'm not judging what they want to wear and they otherwise have free reign over what they wear when. Is your daughter asking to wear sleeveless tops and miniskirts to synagogue or otherwise? Or is this just something you can imagine might happen sometime in the future? Is there a way she can be creative with her dress and him still be comfortable that she's not dressing too immodestly?
My other thought is that we all know kids that were raised within a restrictive religion that shed the tenants just as soon as they were old enough to get out from under their parents' control. If your kids view keeping Kosher as a set of restrictions rather than a positive practice to help them feel connected to their religion, their ancestors, their community, they will not be as likely to keep Kosher when they are adults raising their own families. Same with going to services, keeping the Sabbath, etc.
If these are things that you and/or your husband find important and ideally want them to find important, too, then your best bet is to show them the joy in the religion, the holidays, the practices. Show them why it is important to you in your own life. They may or may not choose to be observant when they grow older, and you and/or your husband will have to figure out how to be ok with that. But a string of "you can't eat that because it's not kosher," "you can't do that because it's Shabbat" etc. and mandating practice until they are 13/out of your house and then thinking it will suddenly have a positive meaning for them will likely backfire.
Angela
(Joseph, 8; Hannah, 5; Miriam, 2 1/2)
http://campwolff.blogspot.com/
Your point about a child being allowed to mix meat and milk on paper plates, etc. not making the home un-kosher, is a good one, but how does your husband feel about that? I could imagine that that might just be too much to ask of him right now. Or that even if he could accept that, ham or shrimp on paper plates might be too much. If not, then great! But perhaps the child could be given permission to explore dietary choices when visiting friends' homes, shopping at the supermarket, etc. Maybe in this case your husband wouldn't feel comfortable being present for that, at least not right now, but would he be comfortable allowing you to facilitate it?
You described it as your "husband's religion". Where do you fall in your level of observance and support of his, and how does he feel about that? Not a question you need to answer on list. It just jumped out at me.
I grew up in a home where my parents practiced two different religions, and while my parents thought they were raising us to "choose for ourselves" when we got older, my mother's obvious feeling about my father's religion never really left it being open as a true choice for us. As a result my Methodist mother doesn't have the Mormon children I guess she was afraid she'd have; what she has is two Jews (or one Jew and one raising Jewish children) and an atheist. Her judgement didn't attract me to her religion either, and as a religious seeker (some kids are, some kids aren't) I sought something different.
Several people have commented since I started typing this response. I agree with Sandra re appropriate dress for synagogue. Her going should be the choice, not how she dresses when she's there. We are not Orthodox, but even so, my kids get that there are clothes that are appropriate for synagogue, weddings, parties, etc. and don't mind because I'm not judging what they want to wear and they otherwise have free reign over what they wear when. Is your daughter asking to wear sleeveless tops and miniskirts to synagogue or otherwise? Or is this just something you can imagine might happen sometime in the future? Is there a way she can be creative with her dress and him still be comfortable that she's not dressing too immodestly?
My other thought is that we all know kids that were raised within a restrictive religion that shed the tenants just as soon as they were old enough to get out from under their parents' control. If your kids view keeping Kosher as a set of restrictions rather than a positive practice to help them feel connected to their religion, their ancestors, their community, they will not be as likely to keep Kosher when they are adults raising their own families. Same with going to services, keeping the Sabbath, etc.
If these are things that you and/or your husband find important and ideally want them to find important, too, then your best bet is to show them the joy in the religion, the holidays, the practices. Show them why it is important to you in your own life. They may or may not choose to be observant when they grow older, and you and/or your husband will have to figure out how to be ok with that. But a string of "you can't eat that because it's not kosher," "you can't do that because it's Shabbat" etc. and mandating practice until they are 13/out of your house and then thinking it will suddenly have a positive meaning for them will likely backfire.
Angela
(Joseph, 8; Hannah, 5; Miriam, 2 1/2)
http://campwolff.blogspot.com/
--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
> -=-When beliefs relate to specific actions (moral
> veganism and not buying meat was mentioned in another thread) does this
> reality preclude taking unschooling and applying it to every area of
> life? -=-
>
> I think those people could adapt as much of unschooling as they could
> into that life, but they would be unlikely to get "the same
> results" (the array of benefits) as we discuss on this list.
>
> Some could be way better than none, though!
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I think I'm going to be thinking about this for a very long time
> (considering my husbands commitment). The religion itself is very
> flexible in many ways, for every question there are many many opinions
> one can follow. And in some areas, the modern group of this religion,
> view the old answers as out-of-date (in terms of changes in mathematics,
> science, biology, etc). I think there have been significant enough
> changes in how we believe children learn these days... the tradition
> says its okay to hit a child, but I've yet to hear anyone of authority
> say that is right anymore. I think I'm going to hold out hope that it
> can be compatible with unschooling, and just keep doing what can be done.
>
>
> --- There may be an onus on the father as head of the family to maintain
> those religious practices within his household. Bummer he married
> you! (joking... except for his fulfilling his religious duties :-) ---
>
> In the traditional groups, definitely that is true. I grew up with 'no
> unkosher food allowed into this house.' But in reality, a piece of
> unkosher food in the house is not going to make the kitchen become
> unkosher. I'm trying to imagine interesting scenarios. If my child
> wanted to put cheese on their hamburger in our kosher kitchen... I could
> offer a paper plate and ask that they inform me if any real utensils got
> unkoshered so we could rekosher them. If a teenager wanted to be really
> unkosher, they could have a hotplate, microwave, etc, in their own room
> - they would maybe understand if my husband wouldn't actually buy those
> things for them. But their allowance is theirs to use how they want, in
> my head. And they can get jobs.
>
> If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take
> daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
> as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
> the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
> 'array of benefits' of unschooling.
>
> I often think of what Sandra wrote about not signing the permission for
> her daughter's tatoo (I think it was a tatoo?) out of respect for her
> husbands dislike for them. Is that not a comparable situation? The
> light in which that happened did not seem to affect the unschooling
> relationship there (or did it?).
>
> Shira
>
sheeboo2
Shira,
My apologies for a really brief post--on an iphone and not much of a "connection"---
Perhaps you can include ideas such as Shalom Biyat (Peaceful Home) and Chessed (Loving Kindness) as well as Tikkun Olam (literally, "repairing the world) as stepping stones to conversation regarding Kashrut and Shabbat--in many ways, I think Halacha (Jewish Law) elevates *relationships* to a higher plane of priorities than simple, often unquestioning adherence to the other laws.
My mother grew up in an orthodox home, yet could eat what she wanted when out of the house.....she grew up to keep a Kosher home, for most of my childhood. As kids, we were also allowed to eat what we wanted out of the house.
I see Judaism as very supportive of unschooling because of Bar-Mitzvah: your young ones will get a chance at 12 and 13 to chose for themselves what path they want to follow--AND--how they want to follow it. Until that point, in my (non-Rabbinical) opinion, unschooling and Jewish principals such as practicing loving kindness and working toward a peace-filled home take center stage.
------ If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole 'array of benefits' of unschooling. -----
In this example, your family aren't the only ones being asked to make adjustments--your daughter's choice of dress would be felt by all in the synagogue. The rest of the congregation shouldn't *have to* be flexible!
Brie
My apologies for a really brief post--on an iphone and not much of a "connection"---
Perhaps you can include ideas such as Shalom Biyat (Peaceful Home) and Chessed (Loving Kindness) as well as Tikkun Olam (literally, "repairing the world) as stepping stones to conversation regarding Kashrut and Shabbat--in many ways, I think Halacha (Jewish Law) elevates *relationships* to a higher plane of priorities than simple, often unquestioning adherence to the other laws.
My mother grew up in an orthodox home, yet could eat what she wanted when out of the house.....she grew up to keep a Kosher home, for most of my childhood. As kids, we were also allowed to eat what we wanted out of the house.
I see Judaism as very supportive of unschooling because of Bar-Mitzvah: your young ones will get a chance at 12 and 13 to chose for themselves what path they want to follow--AND--how they want to follow it. Until that point, in my (non-Rabbinical) opinion, unschooling and Jewish principals such as practicing loving kindness and working toward a peace-filled home take center stage.
------ If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole 'array of benefits' of unschooling. -----
In this example, your family aren't the only ones being asked to make adjustments--your daughter's choice of dress would be felt by all in the synagogue. The rest of the congregation shouldn't *have to* be flexible!
Brie
Jenny Cyphers
***I've tried to work it out in my head sometimes, but my logic hasn't
resonated with my husband as of yet. One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. Thats
definitely not the religious community norm here. ***
Here's a piece of logic that I find unsettling... "After that point, its between
them and God...". Well, NO it isn't. Setting aside for a moment whether one
believes in God or not, those rules that define the religious practice have
little to do with God. Those are long standing practices that came from
somewhere, have a historical context that may or may not apply to practices in
today's world, yet STILL are practiced as if they were meted out on a stone
tablet directly written by the hand of God via a mortal, just yesterday. There
were very good reasons why pork wasn't consumed, and those same things applied
to other scavenger animals that people could consume. Modern knowledge about
cooking and cleanliness makes those reasons almost obsolete.
My dad grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist. There are so many rule bound
obligations within that religion that have nothing whatsoever to do with the
belief in God, yet to not follow them makes one less godly. Outside of that, my
dad decided that he did believe in God, but he wasn't going to follow rules that
didn't make sense, especially if they weren't in the bible, or rather the New
Testament, since the Old Testament has lots and lots of rules that were made
obsolete by the New! One could make all kinds of logical assessments about that
even, but I'll stop there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
resonated with my husband as of yet. One piece of logic goes like
this: in X religion, a person is not religiously responsible for
themselves until they are 12/13 years old, so until that point they are
not obligated in performing XYZ requirements. After that point, its
between them and God, and still doesn't really involve me. And they of
course, always have the choice to believe or not in said system. Thats
definitely not the religious community norm here. ***
Here's a piece of logic that I find unsettling... "After that point, its between
them and God...". Well, NO it isn't. Setting aside for a moment whether one
believes in God or not, those rules that define the religious practice have
little to do with God. Those are long standing practices that came from
somewhere, have a historical context that may or may not apply to practices in
today's world, yet STILL are practiced as if they were meted out on a stone
tablet directly written by the hand of God via a mortal, just yesterday. There
were very good reasons why pork wasn't consumed, and those same things applied
to other scavenger animals that people could consume. Modern knowledge about
cooking and cleanliness makes those reasons almost obsolete.
My dad grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist. There are so many rule bound
obligations within that religion that have nothing whatsoever to do with the
belief in God, yet to not follow them makes one less godly. Outside of that, my
dad decided that he did believe in God, but he wasn't going to follow rules that
didn't make sense, especially if they weren't in the bible, or rather the New
Testament, since the Old Testament has lots and lots of rules that were made
obsolete by the New! One could make all kinds of logical assessments about that
even, but I'll stop there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If there end up being some areas - such as husband not wanting to take
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling.***
One of my good unschooling friends is LDS and has raised her family within that,
very respectfully. Her oldest is 20 and still lives at home and is fully
involved in her church and family. She's a really wonderful example of a grown
up unschooled kid by all accounts. She embraced her religious upbringing, in a
large part, because she grew up respected as an individual. Since I've seen it
done by others, I KNOW it can be done!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daughter to synagogue when dressed immodestly, I don't see there being
as much flexibility. But if we can minimize those situations by being
the most flexible where we can, then we would be closer to the whole
'array of benefits' of unschooling.***
One of my good unschooling friends is LDS and has raised her family within that,
very respectfully. Her oldest is 20 and still lives at home and is fully
involved in her church and family. She's a really wonderful example of a grown
up unschooled kid by all accounts. She embraced her religious upbringing, in a
large part, because she grew up respected as an individual. Since I've seen it
done by others, I KNOW it can be done!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If any unschooling vegetarians here are, in fact, having problems with
kids really wanting their mom to buy and cook meat to eat at home, they
can speak up, but I have never heard of anybody having that problem. It
has always been the kids wanting to eat meat elsewhere and the parent
having a problem with that.***
The last time I saw this issue come up was at the FamilyrunNing site. The
issue, it turned out, wasn't so much about whether or not the mom would buy meat
for her kids when they asked, while out and about. It turned out that one of
the 2 kids wanted to eat meat and the other kid was being cruel about it,
parroting things that had been said about eating meat.
That is where being kind and maybe not saying so much about "meat is murder",
might really be better than giving a child a full account of how slaughter
houses kill animals. It doesn't mean that mom has to go buy packages of meat to
cook up, it means lovingly feeding her children vegetarian food and IF they ask
to eat meat, finding ways to do that, that are respectful for the whole family.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids really wanting their mom to buy and cook meat to eat at home, they
can speak up, but I have never heard of anybody having that problem. It
has always been the kids wanting to eat meat elsewhere and the parent
having a problem with that.***
The last time I saw this issue come up was at the FamilyrunNing site. The
issue, it turned out, wasn't so much about whether or not the mom would buy meat
for her kids when they asked, while out and about. It turned out that one of
the 2 kids wanted to eat meat and the other kid was being cruel about it,
parroting things that had been said about eating meat.
That is where being kind and maybe not saying so much about "meat is murder",
might really be better than giving a child a full account of how slaughter
houses kill animals. It doesn't mean that mom has to go buy packages of meat to
cook up, it means lovingly feeding her children vegetarian food and IF they ask
to eat meat, finding ways to do that, that are respectful for the whole family.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
I see Judaism as very supportive of unschooling because of Bar-
Mitzvah: your young ones will get a chance at 12 and 13 to chose for
themselves what path they want to follow--AND--how they want to follow
it. Until that point, in my (non-Rabbinical) opinion, unschooling and
Jewish principals such as practicing loving kindness and working
toward a peace-filled home take center stage.-=-
An eleven or 12 year old isn't going to start thinking in advance
about whether he would like to go against his parents and friends and
relatives and refuse a Bar-Mitzvah at which people intend to shower
him with cash and valuable prizes.
That's not very realistic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I see Judaism as very supportive of unschooling because of Bar-
Mitzvah: your young ones will get a chance at 12 and 13 to chose for
themselves what path they want to follow--AND--how they want to follow
it. Until that point, in my (non-Rabbinical) opinion, unschooling and
Jewish principals such as practicing loving kindness and working
toward a peace-filled home take center stage.-=-
An eleven or 12 year old isn't going to start thinking in advance
about whether he would like to go against his parents and friends and
relatives and refuse a Bar-Mitzvah at which people intend to shower
him with cash and valuable prizes.
That's not very realistic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
-----An eleven or 12 year old isn't going to start thinking in advance about whether he would like to go against his parents and friends and relatives and refuse a Bar-Mitzvah at which people intend to shower him with cash and valuable prizes.
That's not very realistic.------
No, it isn't. At least not for a non-unschooling family!
But wouldn't an unschooling family who is also orthodox hope to foster an environment where such a choice would be acceptable? I can think of a few ways, like having a Bar Mitzvah at a reform or conservative synagogue, that would enable a young person to both move into religious responsibility to a lesser-degree (if they so choose) and give the parents the 'nachas' (pride) of the ceremony......
I do know a few teens who've decided not to have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah as well....
On another note, it isn't that uncommon for people well into adulthood to have a Bar Mitzvah. I've seen quite a few for converts, Russian Jews who've immigrated to Israel and older men and women who never had one as teens. I'm not sure how "kosher" is is, but waiting could be an option as well.
In my experience, it is very rare for orthodox Bar Mitzvahs to include showering the young teen with "cash and valuable prizes." Often there is a luncheon afterward, and sometimes, it is fancy. But the image I think you're conveying is one of secular American Jews for whom this ceremony is one of the few times they embrace anything having to do with religion. A rite of passage, yes--but of a very different face!
Also, it is very rare in secular Israel as well as in orthodox communities outside of Israel for girls to have a Bat Mitzvah at all.
What I was wanting to convey is that the religion, in my opinion, supports individual responsibility/*choice*--and you are absolutely right--that choice must be supported by the parents for it to be a *real* choice on the part of the child.
Brie
That's not very realistic.------
No, it isn't. At least not for a non-unschooling family!
But wouldn't an unschooling family who is also orthodox hope to foster an environment where such a choice would be acceptable? I can think of a few ways, like having a Bar Mitzvah at a reform or conservative synagogue, that would enable a young person to both move into religious responsibility to a lesser-degree (if they so choose) and give the parents the 'nachas' (pride) of the ceremony......
I do know a few teens who've decided not to have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah as well....
On another note, it isn't that uncommon for people well into adulthood to have a Bar Mitzvah. I've seen quite a few for converts, Russian Jews who've immigrated to Israel and older men and women who never had one as teens. I'm not sure how "kosher" is is, but waiting could be an option as well.
In my experience, it is very rare for orthodox Bar Mitzvahs to include showering the young teen with "cash and valuable prizes." Often there is a luncheon afterward, and sometimes, it is fancy. But the image I think you're conveying is one of secular American Jews for whom this ceremony is one of the few times they embrace anything having to do with religion. A rite of passage, yes--but of a very different face!
Also, it is very rare in secular Israel as well as in orthodox communities outside of Israel for girls to have a Bat Mitzvah at all.
What I was wanting to convey is that the religion, in my opinion, supports individual responsibility/*choice*--and you are absolutely right--that choice must be supported by the parents for it to be a *real* choice on the part of the child.
Brie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 15, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
for "contort yourself to give kids everything they ask for." But the
goal is for them to trust we take their needs and wants seriously, to
trust we'll help them get what they want.
It's not about us acting in ways we believe are enough for them to
trust us. It's about them actually trusting us.
Where parents can get hung up on their kids trusting them is the
parents feel the yeses more, especially the times they've
inconvenienced themselves, and the kids feel the noes more. *And* the
parents include in the yeses the things they make sacrifices to give
to the kids but the kids haven't asked for. (Big house, big yard, big
vacations, full meals, clean laundry ...)
It helps loads to feel how powerless kids are, to consciously lend
them our power to help them get what they want. If a parent is
disgusted by meat, and the kids like meat, it may not be enough to
tell them they can have it anytime they want. If the kids are
sensitive, they may assume even asking is bothersome. So put the
offers out there. Make sure they're filled to overflowing with the
feeling they're needs are taken seriously.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't see unschooling as letting the kids do or have absolutelyThis is key. I think the goal of what we're discussing gets mistaken
> everything that they might possibly desire, at the expense of their
> parents' feelings or interests. But there is always a sense of
> finding a
> way for things to work out for the kids
for "contort yourself to give kids everything they ask for." But the
goal is for them to trust we take their needs and wants seriously, to
trust we'll help them get what they want.
It's not about us acting in ways we believe are enough for them to
trust us. It's about them actually trusting us.
Where parents can get hung up on their kids trusting them is the
parents feel the yeses more, especially the times they've
inconvenienced themselves, and the kids feel the noes more. *And* the
parents include in the yeses the things they make sacrifices to give
to the kids but the kids haven't asked for. (Big house, big yard, big
vacations, full meals, clean laundry ...)
It helps loads to feel how powerless kids are, to consciously lend
them our power to help them get what they want. If a parent is
disgusted by meat, and the kids like meat, it may not be enough to
tell them they can have it anytime they want. If the kids are
sensitive, they may assume even asking is bothersome. So put the
offers out there. Make sure they're filled to overflowing with the
feeling they're needs are taken seriously.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
Jenny wrote:
----Here's a piece of logic that I find unsettling... "After that point,
its between
them and God...". Well, NO it isn't. Setting aside for a moment whether one
believes in God or not, those rules that define the religious practice have
little to do with God. Those are long standing practices that came from
somewhere, have a historical context that may or may not apply to
practices in
today's world, yet STILL are practiced as if they were meted out on a stone
tablet directly written by the hand of God via a mortal, just yesterday.----
For my husband, or someone who believes in Orthodox Judaism, your
perspective expressed here is foreign. Its the perspective of someone
with the preconceptions of modern culture looking at something founded
on different preconceptions. The value of any tradition, new or old,
would fail when judged according to a different set of precepts. I
agree, there are many different levels of belief - in God, in Torah,
later in Rabbinical authority, and when I wrote "after that point, its
between them and God," I meant that if I am following Jewish laws, then
after the age of 12/13 children become responsible for their religious
choices. They can choose not to believe, or to believe, to whatever
extent (God, Torah, Rabbinical...) they choose. But according to the
religion (from what I understand of it right now), its not my
responsibility to dictate what they will believe. And before that age,
they are not considered 'adults' and the laws aren't binding on them at
all, so again, its not my responsibility to decide for them. That
leaves me with modeling my beliefs, showing how beautiful the traditions
can be, reading the texts that its all based on when we want, etc.
The issue, though, is what to do when there is a request for direct
support in doing something that is not 'allowed' by the religion - since
part of the law is not to support someone Jewish in doing something
against that laws. But what I'm reading here is that its just going to
have to be a case by case scenerio, as each instance will be too
different for any blanket statement. We'll have to judge the effect it
might have on the people around us (as in the modest dress at synagogue
example), my husband's and my comfort levels, how directly we would have
to be involved, etc. Similar to Pam's example about alcohol and her
faith, I hope that we can maintain the choices that are important to us
while having respect for our children's choices.
This thread has been very very helpful in clarifying for me how parent's
choices for themselves and allowing children to make their own choices,
in situations where it seems like there would be conflict, can not get
in the way of unschooling.
Shira
----Here's a piece of logic that I find unsettling... "After that point,
its between
them and God...". Well, NO it isn't. Setting aside for a moment whether one
believes in God or not, those rules that define the religious practice have
little to do with God. Those are long standing practices that came from
somewhere, have a historical context that may or may not apply to
practices in
today's world, yet STILL are practiced as if they were meted out on a stone
tablet directly written by the hand of God via a mortal, just yesterday.----
For my husband, or someone who believes in Orthodox Judaism, your
perspective expressed here is foreign. Its the perspective of someone
with the preconceptions of modern culture looking at something founded
on different preconceptions. The value of any tradition, new or old,
would fail when judged according to a different set of precepts. I
agree, there are many different levels of belief - in God, in Torah,
later in Rabbinical authority, and when I wrote "after that point, its
between them and God," I meant that if I am following Jewish laws, then
after the age of 12/13 children become responsible for their religious
choices. They can choose not to believe, or to believe, to whatever
extent (God, Torah, Rabbinical...) they choose. But according to the
religion (from what I understand of it right now), its not my
responsibility to dictate what they will believe. And before that age,
they are not considered 'adults' and the laws aren't binding on them at
all, so again, its not my responsibility to decide for them. That
leaves me with modeling my beliefs, showing how beautiful the traditions
can be, reading the texts that its all based on when we want, etc.
The issue, though, is what to do when there is a request for direct
support in doing something that is not 'allowed' by the religion - since
part of the law is not to support someone Jewish in doing something
against that laws. But what I'm reading here is that its just going to
have to be a case by case scenerio, as each instance will be too
different for any blanket statement. We'll have to judge the effect it
might have on the people around us (as in the modest dress at synagogue
example), my husband's and my comfort levels, how directly we would have
to be involved, etc. Similar to Pam's example about alcohol and her
faith, I hope that we can maintain the choices that are important to us
while having respect for our children's choices.
This thread has been very very helpful in clarifying for me how parent's
choices for themselves and allowing children to make their own choices,
in situations where it seems like there would be conflict, can not get
in the way of unschooling.
Shira
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's not about us acting in ways we believe are enough for them to
trust us. It's about them actually trusting us.-=-
Right. It's not about persuading or manipulating someone into
trusting you. It's about becoming trustworthy.
I wanted to ask about "covert rules"--what was intended by that?
Sneaky rules? Did the first poster define "covert rules" and I missed
it? It's not a term that makes sense to me, and I'd like that
clarified before it sits in the archives too long.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trust us. It's about them actually trusting us.-=-
Right. It's not about persuading or manipulating someone into
trusting you. It's about becoming trustworthy.
I wanted to ask about "covert rules"--what was intended by that?
Sneaky rules? Did the first poster define "covert rules" and I missed
it? It's not a term that makes sense to me, and I'd like that
clarified before it sits in the archives too long.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily S
>As a Torah Observant Christian, this is my understanding as well. I follow the Torah, because I believe it contains teachings about how to best show our love for others, our community, our bodies, ourselves and God. The important thing is the relationships- with God and others. I am not responsible for my children's decisions regarding their relationship with God or how they express it. I am only responsible for how I live my life, how I treat others including my children, and for introducing my children to God.
> For my husband, or someone who believes in Orthodox Judaism, your
> perspective expressed here is foreign. Its the perspective of someone
> with the preconceptions of modern culture looking at something founded
> on different preconceptions. The value of any tradition, new or old,
> would fail when judged according to a different set of precepts. I
> agree, there are many different levels of belief - in God, in Torah,
> later in Rabbinical authority, and when I wrote "after that point, its
> between them and God," I meant that if I am following Jewish laws, then
> after the age of 12/13 children become responsible for their religious
> choices. They can choose not to believe, or to believe, to whatever
> extent (God, Torah, Rabbinical...) they choose. But according to the
> religion (from what I understand of it right now), its not my
> responsibility to dictate what they will believe. And before that age,
> they are not considered 'adults' and the laws aren't binding on them at
> all, so again, its not my responsibility to decide for them. That
> leaves me with modeling my beliefs, showing how beautiful the traditions
> can be, reading the texts that its all based on when we want, etc.
>
The types of issues brought up in this thread don't come up very often in my house, partially because my children are so young and partially because I only follow the Torah, not the rabbinical laws, so there is a lot less. On thing that has come up is the issue of eating Kosher, especially since my husband does not. But again, Biblical Kosher is actually pretty easy to keep.
Last week, my daughter wanted marshmellows at the store and I said no. But I also said that I will look for some Kosher ones somewhere else and she has a whole huge array of candy options that I do joyfully buy for her every time we go shopping. So, it wasn't a big deal to her. If it had been a big deal and that was what she really wanted right then and couldn't wait for me to find the Kosher ones, I would have bought them. Then stocked up on Kosher ones for next time.
Sandra has said many times here to make the better of two choices and that resonates with me on this level as well. When I am in a dilemma of personal beliefs vs. possibly damaging a relationship I will pick the option that builds the relationship. Then look for solutions that can accomodate both. If that means I break Torah while I am at it, I am not concerned about God striking me with lightening. I'm always growing and learning, and since I believe Torah is about relationships anyway, I trust that he will help me find a way to keep relationships the priority while keeping Torah.
Emily
k
Covert rules... I tried to word that better. What I was going for is
the idea that parent can be enforcing rules without knowing that
they're doing it since many times it's possible to NOT see the rule at
all but assume agreement as thought it were a seamless part of
anyone's life.
Sometimes (maybe oftentimes) rules can operate in the background
almost invisibly.
Although, maybe that isn't an important distinction in this thread.
~Katherine
the idea that parent can be enforcing rules without knowing that
they're doing it since many times it's possible to NOT see the rule at
all but assume agreement as thought it were a seamless part of
anyone's life.
Sometimes (maybe oftentimes) rules can operate in the background
almost invisibly.
Although, maybe that isn't an important distinction in this thread.
~Katherine
On 7/17/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-It's not about us acting in ways we believe are enough for them to
> trust us. It's about them actually trusting us.-=-
>
> Right. It's not about persuading or manipulating someone into
> trusting you. It's about becoming trustworthy.
>
>
> I wanted to ask about "covert rules"--what was intended by that?
> Sneaky rules? Did the first poster define "covert rules" and I missed
> it? It's not a term that makes sense to me, and I'd like that
> clarified before it sits in the archives too long.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Covert rules... I tried to word that better. What I was going for is
the idea that parent can be enforcing rules without knowing that
they're doing it since many times it's possible to NOT see the rule at
all but assume agreement as thought it were a seamless part of
anyone's life.
-=-Sometimes (maybe oftentimes) rules can operate in the background
almost invisibly.-=-
I don't think that would be "rules" so much as conditioned behavior,
or acting without thinking.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the idea that parent can be enforcing rules without knowing that
they're doing it since many times it's possible to NOT see the rule at
all but assume agreement as thought it were a seamless part of
anyone's life.
-=-Sometimes (maybe oftentimes) rules can operate in the background
almost invisibly.-=-
I don't think that would be "rules" so much as conditioned behavior,
or acting without thinking.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
-----An eleven or 12 year old isn't going to start thinking in advance about whether he would like to go against his parents and friends and relatives and refuse a Bar-Mitzvah at which people intend to shower him with cash and valuable prizes.
That's not very realistic.------
We know a family whose twins had their Bat-mitzvah at age 13 but their younger sister elected to put it off a little. She was not as interested as her sisters were in learning the Hebrew she'd need to know and though she thinks she will do it eventually, no one is pressing her to do it and she's happy with her supportive parents. She's 15 and hasn't made the decision to do it. Her parents (and the Synagog) are OK with it if she decides never to do it. Her sisters got a BIG party at their Bat-Mitzvah. The parents are thinking of making a big deal out of the younger sister's 16th birthday party instead.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's not very realistic.------
We know a family whose twins had their Bat-mitzvah at age 13 but their younger sister elected to put it off a little. She was not as interested as her sisters were in learning the Hebrew she'd need to know and though she thinks she will do it eventually, no one is pressing her to do it and she's happy with her supportive parents. She's 15 and hasn't made the decision to do it. Her parents (and the Synagog) are OK with it if she decides never to do it. Her sisters got a BIG party at their Bat-Mitzvah. The parents are thinking of making a big deal out of the younger sister's 16th birthday party instead.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I don't think it's for not thinking so much as not realizing what it
is that one is thinking in terms of how it effects others, especially
one's children. "Not under my roof" might come from a well-honed
individuality that has been hammered into the parent since childhood
onward, and there's a place for that kind of thinking that doesn't
seem harmful to one's children but is.
Conditioned behavior is the exact thing that unschooling parents need
deschooling from, unless they were unschooled themselves, whether
their children ever attended school or not.
~Katherine
is that one is thinking in terms of how it effects others, especially
one's children. "Not under my roof" might come from a well-honed
individuality that has been hammered into the parent since childhood
onward, and there's a place for that kind of thinking that doesn't
seem harmful to one's children but is.
Conditioned behavior is the exact thing that unschooling parents need
deschooling from, unless they were unschooled themselves, whether
their children ever attended school or not.
~Katherine
On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Covert rules... I tried to word that better. What I was going for is
> the idea that parent can be enforcing rules without knowing that
> they're doing it since many times it's possible to NOT see the rule at
> all but assume agreement as thought it were a seamless part of
> anyone's life.
>
> -=-Sometimes (maybe oftentimes) rules can operate in the background
> almost invisibly.-=-
>
> I don't think that would be "rules" so much as conditioned behavior,
> or acting without thinking.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Jenny Cyphers
***The parents are thinking of making a big deal out of the younger sister's
16th birthday party instead.***
Too bad they missed 15, they could've done a quinceanera! That idea really
fascinated me! I'd do one if I could be 15 again! I love age celebrations!
It's a coming of age thing that is sort of lost on our culture that keeps kids
as kids until the age of 18!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
16th birthday party instead.***
Too bad they missed 15, they could've done a quinceanera! That idea really
fascinated me! I'd do one if I could be 15 again! I love age celebrations!
It's a coming of age thing that is sort of lost on our culture that keeps kids
as kids until the age of 18!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]