Fighting
Emily S
My 4.5 year old dd keeps doing something that I just do not understand. She fights with me over things and she will.not.stop until she ends up getting hurt. Here's an example:
Her and her 2 year old sister were playing in the wagon. It has a little door and she wanted it closed and her sister wanted it open so they were fighting over it. I intervened and tried talking about ways we could solve the problem. Set a timer? Take turns? I asked her if she had any ideas too. But she could hardly hear my suggestions because the whole time she is trying to push me out of the way to get to the door to close it. I am trying to keep her away from it so the girls aren't fighting while we find a solution. She would NOT stop for even a second to try to figure something else out. She got more and more intent on closing the door to the point where she is pushing me, running into me, hitting me, just fighting with everything she has to get the door.
By that point, it knew it wasn't about the door. It's about the FIGHT. She does this every day over random things. So I quit trying to give her ideas to solve the door problem and instead said, "Right now I need to keep you away from you sister until you calm down." And I tried to help her calm down. But nothing worked!
After trying to get her some water, holding her in a bear hug, seeing if she wanted to push on my hands (helps with frustration sometimes) or throw a stuffed animal, tried to let her have some space in her room, I finally ended up just sitting on the floor between her and her sister with my hands out to stop her from getting to her sister. She kept running into me and I kept pushing her back (not hard, just away from me) because the only other option was to hold her and restrain her. By that point I was angry and I ended up pushing her too hard and she fell and got hurt.
Then she stopped.
I held her and comforted her while she cried and apologized for pushing her. When she calmed down, her sister was done with the wagon and I said, "There you go, it's your turn now!" She said, "No, I don't want to play with it."
I wanted to scream YOU JUST FOUGHT ME OVER IT FOR LIKE 20 MINUTES AND NOW YOU DON'T WANT IT?!
This goes on every day lately! She doesn't stop until she gets hurt. I try really, really hard to use every technique I know how to keep my cool, help her solve the problem, help her calm down, but it's like she wants to fight with me. I just don't understand! And almost every time, she ends up getting hurt because we are fighting and she will end up falling down, tripping, or I will accidentally hurt her while trying to restrain her to keep her from hurting me or her sister. I feel really bad when she gets hurt and I don't know what to do.
Emily
Her and her 2 year old sister were playing in the wagon. It has a little door and she wanted it closed and her sister wanted it open so they were fighting over it. I intervened and tried talking about ways we could solve the problem. Set a timer? Take turns? I asked her if she had any ideas too. But she could hardly hear my suggestions because the whole time she is trying to push me out of the way to get to the door to close it. I am trying to keep her away from it so the girls aren't fighting while we find a solution. She would NOT stop for even a second to try to figure something else out. She got more and more intent on closing the door to the point where she is pushing me, running into me, hitting me, just fighting with everything she has to get the door.
By that point, it knew it wasn't about the door. It's about the FIGHT. She does this every day over random things. So I quit trying to give her ideas to solve the door problem and instead said, "Right now I need to keep you away from you sister until you calm down." And I tried to help her calm down. But nothing worked!
After trying to get her some water, holding her in a bear hug, seeing if she wanted to push on my hands (helps with frustration sometimes) or throw a stuffed animal, tried to let her have some space in her room, I finally ended up just sitting on the floor between her and her sister with my hands out to stop her from getting to her sister. She kept running into me and I kept pushing her back (not hard, just away from me) because the only other option was to hold her and restrain her. By that point I was angry and I ended up pushing her too hard and she fell and got hurt.
Then she stopped.
I held her and comforted her while she cried and apologized for pushing her. When she calmed down, her sister was done with the wagon and I said, "There you go, it's your turn now!" She said, "No, I don't want to play with it."
I wanted to scream YOU JUST FOUGHT ME OVER IT FOR LIKE 20 MINUTES AND NOW YOU DON'T WANT IT?!
This goes on every day lately! She doesn't stop until she gets hurt. I try really, really hard to use every technique I know how to keep my cool, help her solve the problem, help her calm down, but it's like she wants to fight with me. I just don't understand! And almost every time, she ends up getting hurt because we are fighting and she will end up falling down, tripping, or I will accidentally hurt her while trying to restrain her to keep her from hurting me or her sister. I feel really bad when she gets hurt and I don't know what to do.
Emily
Sandra Dodd
-=-She would NOT stop for even a second to try to figure something
else out. -=-
Were you stopping to figure something else out? Talking about it
wasn't working.
Some moms talk too much. Some moms have a sing-songy voice that
infuriates some children (and some other adults).
I'm just guessing, because I don't know. You don't have to confirm or
deny anything, I'm just putting brainstormish thoughts out here in
case someone else can use some of the bits and pieces.
-=-By that point, it knew it wasn't about the door. It's about the
FIGHT-=-
Maybe it's not about the fight OR the door.
Maybe it's about what was happening in the five minutes or half hour
before that.
-=-She does this every day over random things.-=-
Maybe random things (wagon, food, toy), but not random conditions.
-=-I quit trying to give her ideas to solve the door problem and
instead said, "Right now I need to keep you away from you sister until
you calm down." -=-
Too many words, and you made it about yourself. DID you "need" that?
Maybe you could have said "STOP." or "NO." Or picked her up and put
her elsewhere, without trying to calm her down. Or distracting her
with something cool--something cold, or sparkly, or bubbly, or musical.
-=-When she calmed down, her sister was done with the wagon and I
said, "There you go, it's your turn now!" She said, "No, I don't want
to play with it." -=-
One of the biggest fights EVER at our house was when we had company.
FIVE kids were arguing and fighting over a Fisher Price little people
farmer. I waded in, disentangled kids, protected bodily safety of
guests, I had to be loud to be heard over the wails of the
participants. I said "let me see the farmer a minute." And I put it
in my pocket while I was still talking to them, and offering food, and
something to do outside, thinking some of them would take me up on
that, and I'd give the farmer to whoever was left, with some
suggestions about how to share.
ALL of them wanted food and the backyard. I offered the farmer to
various of them, if they wanted to go back and play, but the poor
farmer, was no longer desired. I just put him in his Fisher-Price
tractor.
I'm guessing she's pissed because she has a little sister. I know I
was. It's the rudest thing, that a parent claims to love a child, and
carries her around and says she's wonderful, and then for some
entirely inexplicable reason (inexplicable to a three year old) the
mother brings in a replacement baby and then the older kid is always
in trouble, always wrong, always too loud, too rough, too too too...
too abandoned and shunted aside for a poopy, crying "oooh so
wonderful," carried around disgusting BABY. I still remember.
Here are some ideas of things to do with young children. Plan
something BEFORE she's cranky. Set things up two or three at a time
so you have another "station" to move to when she's tired of what
you've prepared for her. Don't expect her to hang out with you and
the baby, as a third party to your romance with the baby.
From the way you're writing about her, it seems you're tired of her.
You're saying "every day" and "fight" as though she's a constant
disruption.
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
She needs you to make her life interesting, sparkly, memorable.
Memorable for good things, not bad things.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
else out. -=-
Were you stopping to figure something else out? Talking about it
wasn't working.
Some moms talk too much. Some moms have a sing-songy voice that
infuriates some children (and some other adults).
I'm just guessing, because I don't know. You don't have to confirm or
deny anything, I'm just putting brainstormish thoughts out here in
case someone else can use some of the bits and pieces.
-=-By that point, it knew it wasn't about the door. It's about the
FIGHT-=-
Maybe it's not about the fight OR the door.
Maybe it's about what was happening in the five minutes or half hour
before that.
-=-She does this every day over random things.-=-
Maybe random things (wagon, food, toy), but not random conditions.
-=-I quit trying to give her ideas to solve the door problem and
instead said, "Right now I need to keep you away from you sister until
you calm down." -=-
Too many words, and you made it about yourself. DID you "need" that?
Maybe you could have said "STOP." or "NO." Or picked her up and put
her elsewhere, without trying to calm her down. Or distracting her
with something cool--something cold, or sparkly, or bubbly, or musical.
-=-When she calmed down, her sister was done with the wagon and I
said, "There you go, it's your turn now!" She said, "No, I don't want
to play with it." -=-
One of the biggest fights EVER at our house was when we had company.
FIVE kids were arguing and fighting over a Fisher Price little people
farmer. I waded in, disentangled kids, protected bodily safety of
guests, I had to be loud to be heard over the wails of the
participants. I said "let me see the farmer a minute." And I put it
in my pocket while I was still talking to them, and offering food, and
something to do outside, thinking some of them would take me up on
that, and I'd give the farmer to whoever was left, with some
suggestions about how to share.
ALL of them wanted food and the backyard. I offered the farmer to
various of them, if they wanted to go back and play, but the poor
farmer, was no longer desired. I just put him in his Fisher-Price
tractor.
I'm guessing she's pissed because she has a little sister. I know I
was. It's the rudest thing, that a parent claims to love a child, and
carries her around and says she's wonderful, and then for some
entirely inexplicable reason (inexplicable to a three year old) the
mother brings in a replacement baby and then the older kid is always
in trouble, always wrong, always too loud, too rough, too too too...
too abandoned and shunted aside for a poopy, crying "oooh so
wonderful," carried around disgusting BABY. I still remember.
Here are some ideas of things to do with young children. Plan
something BEFORE she's cranky. Set things up two or three at a time
so you have another "station" to move to when she's tired of what
you've prepared for her. Don't expect her to hang out with you and
the baby, as a third party to your romance with the baby.
From the way you're writing about her, it seems you're tired of her.
You're saying "every day" and "fight" as though she's a constant
disruption.
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
She needs you to make her life interesting, sparkly, memorable.
Memorable for good things, not bad things.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow66
":
My 5 year old son can be very physical. If you try to remove him from a situation by picking him up or physically blocking him or leading him by the hand his first reaction is like someone who is being threatened. Blocking for example he responds to with pushing, as if he were being pushed. Which if you question him about it he perceived he was being pushed. In the situation you are discribing the best way to approach that with my son would have been to do one of two things,
1. offer up a distraction, without mentioning the wagon, like "hey,its hot, who wants a popsicle. or
2. pick up the 2 year old and distract her.
>"
> My 4.5 year old dd keeps doing something that I just do not understand. She fights with me over things and she will.not.stop until she ends up getting hurt. Here's an example:
>
My 5 year old son can be very physical. If you try to remove him from a situation by picking him up or physically blocking him or leading him by the hand his first reaction is like someone who is being threatened. Blocking for example he responds to with pushing, as if he were being pushed. Which if you question him about it he perceived he was being pushed. In the situation you are discribing the best way to approach that with my son would have been to do one of two things,
1. offer up a distraction, without mentioning the wagon, like "hey,its hot, who wants a popsicle. or
2. pick up the 2 year old and distract her.
Marina DeLuca-Howard
There are many reasons kids fight...
1. Time of day. 4pm is tea time for a reason. No tea need be served--hot
cocoa or cool lemonade and crackers/biscuits/bread with butter/muffins are
good.
2. 45 minutes into any activity or an arbitrary observable time.
Patience/communication failure. If you know that a fight is immenient
prevent it.
3. Bored.
4. One hundred and one orders, admonitions and "losses"/compromises is one
too many. Is nothing going her way? She may see it that way. You may say
no to the park, her fav meal or a book and forget. She may seem to let the
100 things go, and so it seems like a surprize.
5. Are you being honest with her? Are you placating her, but
uncompromising? Are you tired? Are you hoping there was an "off" switch.
6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids drop just
before the storm hits. Yawns, raised voices, no adult interaction for a
while and thirst/hunger/need to use the toilet/need for physical excerise.
7. My kids fight less when we bike to a park or mall. Leave the house.
8. Play host to your kids--bring out Hawaiian lais and munch on a monkey
platter of pineapple and tropical fruit. I've been a Queen with knights at
a banquet, served tea as Mrs Weasley to my kids in Hogwarts robes, and Carol
Brady(high heels and a pink outfit!). Sit and build with lego. Wear fairy
wings and sprinkle fairy dust, glitter or body paint on the junior fairies.
Crispin is seven and currently wants a cowboy outfit and formal suit(black
jacket with matching pants, a button down shirt and tie).
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1. Time of day. 4pm is tea time for a reason. No tea need be served--hot
cocoa or cool lemonade and crackers/biscuits/bread with butter/muffins are
good.
2. 45 minutes into any activity or an arbitrary observable time.
Patience/communication failure. If you know that a fight is immenient
prevent it.
3. Bored.
4. One hundred and one orders, admonitions and "losses"/compromises is one
too many. Is nothing going her way? She may see it that way. You may say
no to the park, her fav meal or a book and forget. She may seem to let the
100 things go, and so it seems like a surprize.
5. Are you being honest with her? Are you placating her, but
uncompromising? Are you tired? Are you hoping there was an "off" switch.
6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids drop just
before the storm hits. Yawns, raised voices, no adult interaction for a
while and thirst/hunger/need to use the toilet/need for physical excerise.
7. My kids fight less when we bike to a park or mall. Leave the house.
8. Play host to your kids--bring out Hawaiian lais and munch on a monkey
platter of pineapple and tropical fruit. I've been a Queen with knights at
a banquet, served tea as Mrs Weasley to my kids in Hogwarts robes, and Carol
Brady(high heels and a pink outfit!). Sit and build with lego. Wear fairy
wings and sprinkle fairy dust, glitter or body paint on the junior fairies.
Crispin is seven and currently wants a cowboy outfit and formal suit(black
jacket with matching pants, a button down shirt and tie).
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids
drop just
before the storm hits. -=-
Not always.
Often, yes.
Not always.
-=My kids fight less when we bike to a park or mall. Leave the house.-=-
I totally used this. Change of scene; change of venue. And when it
quits going well there, go to another place, not just straight back
home.
-=Crispin is seven and currently wants a cowboy outfit and formal
suit(black
jacket with matching pants, a button down shirt and tie).-=-
Thrift store!! Little boys rarely wear suits or costumes out; they
outgrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
drop just
before the storm hits. -=-
Not always.
Often, yes.
Not always.
-=My kids fight less when we bike to a park or mall. Leave the house.-=-
I totally used this. Change of scene; change of venue. And when it
quits going well there, go to another place, not just straight back
home.
-=Crispin is seven and currently wants a cowboy outfit and formal
suit(black
jacket with matching pants, a button down shirt and tie).-=-
Thrift store!! Little boys rarely wear suits or costumes out; they
outgrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
<<-=6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids
drop just
before the storm hits. -=-
Not always.
Often, yes.
Not always.>>
My kids drop clues every time...often I fight the urge to jump in, but when
I do there will be a week when there are no fights. Sometimes its just a
feeling that something is brewing. I mean the kids don't argue with me or
their dad or each other.
But yawning, body language, change in tone, one person is winning all the
games, frustration and physical discomfort are factors. Even clothes are
factors. Less fights when everyone has their favourite outfit on--the baggy
shorts they love or the great t-shirt.
Type of games played are factors. More fighting with knights than wizards.
The other thing is a clean house and lots of kid friendly snacks seem to
work as well to promote peace. I remind myself when I am tired and don't
feel like doing that load of laundry or sweeping/putting away that cleaning
or organizing helps keep space available for new games. Having clean fav
outfits is also great. Sometimes when I work really hard there are lots of
unexpected thank yous for washing that fav. t-shirt or putting something
away.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
drop just
before the storm hits. -=-
Not always.
Often, yes.
Not always.>>
My kids drop clues every time...often I fight the urge to jump in, but when
I do there will be a week when there are no fights. Sometimes its just a
feeling that something is brewing. I mean the kids don't argue with me or
their dad or each other.
But yawning, body language, change in tone, one person is winning all the
games, frustration and physical discomfort are factors. Even clothes are
factors. Less fights when everyone has their favourite outfit on--the baggy
shorts they love or the great t-shirt.
Type of games played are factors. More fighting with knights than wizards.
The other thing is a clean house and lots of kid friendly snacks seem to
work as well to promote peace. I remind myself when I am tired and don't
feel like doing that load of laundry or sweeping/putting away that cleaning
or organizing helps keep space available for new games. Having clean fav
outfits is also great. Sometimes when I work really hard there are lots of
unexpected thank yous for washing that fav. t-shirt or putting something
away.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Eric has always struggled with wanting things to be his own way, and with what I think of as getting "on rails," starting an action and having a really hard time turning away from it even if someone is asking him to stop. This has been one of the major causes of kid fights and Eric tantrums. One of the ways we dealt with it was by giving him as much control over things as possible. For instance, if I felt like I was getting into the kind of space the OP mentioned--where it felt like I was just struggling with him all the time--I'd take us out of the house to, say, the zoo, and just let Eric make the decisions: what animal to see next, how long to stay at exhibits, when to stop for ice cream. This can be done with a baby along, in a stroller or sling, because the baby doesn't care if we go to the penguins or the rhino next! Setting aside some time for us to remember how much we enjoy each other, in a place where that can happen more easily.
A lot of times when I'm stuck in a "kids are driving me crazy" stage, I get focused on how I want _them_ to change. But often there are things _I_ can do to defuse conflict. And, of course, avoiding it in the first place can be key. It's not always possible, but if there are patterns you can learn to recognize you can step in and shape events before things go bad. For instance, Carl has a stretch of time in the late afternoon, starting around 5, when he is really easily frustrated, combative, whiny. Sometimes if I can step in around 4:30 and start steering him away from frustrating situations, it can really help. For instance, it's a bad time for a friend to be over; a pre-emptive snack often helps; it's a good time to help him settle with a video game or movie or, if I'm not hung up cooking or something, a board game or activity with me.
The OP said:
*** She kept running into me and I kept pushing her back (not hard, just away from me) because the only other option was to hold her and restrain her. By that point I was angry and I ended up pushing her too hard and she fell and got hurt. ***
I'd have gotten angry, too. It's one of my failings as a parent, and something I keep working on. But Danielle C. used to talk on lists about "being a mountain" when her son was having tantrums, just trying to be this big solid presence. It's an image of strength, and patience, and endurance, and of accepting the moment as it is. I've never mastered it, but my attempts to invoke that kind of "I'm a great big patient unmoving rock and I'm OK with how things are this minute and I know the energy is going to shift in a new direction soon" have definitely *helped*.
I doubt your daughter wants to fight, really, but she may have the kind of trouble Eric does with turning away from an object or action he has his sights on. It sounds kind of similar. We did a lot of things that helped when he was younger, but in a lot of ways improvement with him has been developmental; 7 was huge, 9 has been huge again in terms of big developmental leaps and improved self-understanding.
I can't tell you how many times I've realized I was expecting my kids to be more flexible and patient than I was expecting myself to be.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> -I totally used this. Change of scene; change of venue. And when itThis used to be really important for _me_ when I was struggling with Eric, because getting out of the house means I'm no longer being pulled between chores that need doing and wanting to read my book and the kids. To literally go out the door and walk away from all that other stuff so I could give Eric my full attention made me a better mom for the afternoon.
> quits going well there, go to another place, not just straight back
> home.
Eric has always struggled with wanting things to be his own way, and with what I think of as getting "on rails," starting an action and having a really hard time turning away from it even if someone is asking him to stop. This has been one of the major causes of kid fights and Eric tantrums. One of the ways we dealt with it was by giving him as much control over things as possible. For instance, if I felt like I was getting into the kind of space the OP mentioned--where it felt like I was just struggling with him all the time--I'd take us out of the house to, say, the zoo, and just let Eric make the decisions: what animal to see next, how long to stay at exhibits, when to stop for ice cream. This can be done with a baby along, in a stroller or sling, because the baby doesn't care if we go to the penguins or the rhino next! Setting aside some time for us to remember how much we enjoy each other, in a place where that can happen more easily.
A lot of times when I'm stuck in a "kids are driving me crazy" stage, I get focused on how I want _them_ to change. But often there are things _I_ can do to defuse conflict. And, of course, avoiding it in the first place can be key. It's not always possible, but if there are patterns you can learn to recognize you can step in and shape events before things go bad. For instance, Carl has a stretch of time in the late afternoon, starting around 5, when he is really easily frustrated, combative, whiny. Sometimes if I can step in around 4:30 and start steering him away from frustrating situations, it can really help. For instance, it's a bad time for a friend to be over; a pre-emptive snack often helps; it's a good time to help him settle with a video game or movie or, if I'm not hung up cooking or something, a board game or activity with me.
The OP said:
*** She kept running into me and I kept pushing her back (not hard, just away from me) because the only other option was to hold her and restrain her. By that point I was angry and I ended up pushing her too hard and she fell and got hurt. ***
I'd have gotten angry, too. It's one of my failings as a parent, and something I keep working on. But Danielle C. used to talk on lists about "being a mountain" when her son was having tantrums, just trying to be this big solid presence. It's an image of strength, and patience, and endurance, and of accepting the moment as it is. I've never mastered it, but my attempts to invoke that kind of "I'm a great big patient unmoving rock and I'm OK with how things are this minute and I know the energy is going to shift in a new direction soon" have definitely *helped*.
I doubt your daughter wants to fight, really, but she may have the kind of trouble Eric does with turning away from an object or action he has his sights on. It sounds kind of similar. We did a lot of things that helped when he was younger, but in a lot of ways improvement with him has been developmental; 7 was huge, 9 has been huge again in terms of big developmental leaps and improved self-understanding.
I can't tell you how many times I've realized I was expecting my kids to be more flexible and patient than I was expecting myself to be.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are always big big clues kids
drop just before the storm hits. -=-
-=-Not always.-=-
-=-My kids drop clues every time..-=-
There's a difference between "my kids drop clues" and "there are
always big big clues."
The list has way over a thousand members. (Officially/technically
2692, but I figure many of them aren't paying attention.)
There's not much that will be "always" or "big big" about ALL those
people's kids.
Sandra
drop just before the storm hits. -=-
-=-Not always.-=-
-=-My kids drop clues every time..-=-
There's a difference between "my kids drop clues" and "there are
always big big clues."
The list has way over a thousand members. (Officially/technically
2692, but I figure many of them aren't paying attention.)
There's not much that will be "always" or "big big" about ALL those
people's kids.
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
You have a good point Sandra. Clues can prevent fights, but life is more
about promoting love and happiness and peace than an absence of
turmoil/battle.
When my goal is to promote peace and happiness my kids fight less with me,
each other or dad. I think when the goal is to stop fights from happening
this creates tension. So, if I re-think what I am doing then it is not to
stop fights but to make their lives fun that I make sure the fav. t-shirt is
clean, fav soap available for baths, or forgotten MAGIC cards are put with
the rest of the deck. When my goal is to clean or run errands things or
stop fighting tend to go awry.
I suppose this isn't me being perceptive as me preventing circumstances that
lead to a feeling of unfairness or disequilibrium or stepping in or just
being present to note when snacks are needed or a change of pace is wanted.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about promoting love and happiness and peace than an absence of
turmoil/battle.
When my goal is to promote peace and happiness my kids fight less with me,
each other or dad. I think when the goal is to stop fights from happening
this creates tension. So, if I re-think what I am doing then it is not to
stop fights but to make their lives fun that I make sure the fav. t-shirt is
clean, fav soap available for baths, or forgotten MAGIC cards are put with
the rest of the deck. When my goal is to clean or run errands things or
stop fighting tend to go awry.
I suppose this isn't me being perceptive as me preventing circumstances that
lead to a feeling of unfairness or disequilibrium or stepping in or just
being present to note when snacks are needed or a change of pace is wanted.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I suppose this isn't me being perceptive as me preventing
circumstances that
lead to a feeling of unfairness or disequilibrium or stepping in or just
being present to note when snacks are needed or a change of pace is
wanted.-=-
Some people can be perceptive AND do those cool things.
Some people have a harder time with either.
Some kids broadcast clues galore--some are very expressive with
posture and sighs or giggles or tone of voice. Other not so much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
circumstances that
lead to a feeling of unfairness or disequilibrium or stepping in or just
being present to note when snacks are needed or a change of pace is
wanted.-=-
Some people can be perceptive AND do those cool things.
Some people have a harder time with either.
Some kids broadcast clues galore--some are very expressive with
posture and sighs or giggles or tone of voice. Other not so much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/27/2010 8:14 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Sandra talked about different people's bodies handling adrenaline
differently - and how it could be a developmental thing. Looking back, I
realize that Roxana simply didn't sense it coming - before she knew it
she was awash with adrenaline and anger. She WANTED to be abe to control
it - to head it off - to try to breathe before it hit. But there was no
build-up for her - it was a huge rush all at once.
When she got to the point that she could just get away when the rush
hit, that was a really big improvement. Then, as she got older, she
could get over it more and more quickly. Now, as a 22 year old, people
think she's calm and sweet - she's considered the cool-headed,
hard-to-anger girl in her sorority. She knows how to mentally "get away"
for a second and calm herself without anybody noticing, but I think she
still sometimes has that lightening fast rush of emotion.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There's not much that will be "always" or "big big" about ALL thoseThere were were seldom clues before Roxana would suddenly be angry.
> people's kids.
Sandra talked about different people's bodies handling adrenaline
differently - and how it could be a developmental thing. Looking back, I
realize that Roxana simply didn't sense it coming - before she knew it
she was awash with adrenaline and anger. She WANTED to be abe to control
it - to head it off - to try to breathe before it hit. But there was no
build-up for her - it was a huge rush all at once.
When she got to the point that she could just get away when the rush
hit, that was a really big improvement. Then, as she got older, she
could get over it more and more quickly. Now, as a 22 year old, people
think she's calm and sweet - she's considered the cool-headed,
hard-to-anger girl in her sorority. She knows how to mentally "get away"
for a second and calm herself without anybody noticing, but I think she
still sometimes has that lightening fast rush of emotion.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> I'm guessing she's pissed because she has a little sister. I know IThis is what I was thinking. I read back to the post about your eldest
> was. It's the rudest thing, that a parent claims to love a child, and
> carries her around and says she's wonderful, and then for some
> entirely inexplicable reason (inexplicable to a three year old) the
> mother brings in a replacement baby and then the older kid is always
> in trouble, always wrong, always too loud, too rough, too too too...
> too abandoned and shunted aside for a poopy, crying "oooh so
> wonderful," carried around disgusting BABY. I still remember.
>
wanting to be with you when you're working. I wondered about you
paying her to babysit her 2 year old sister.
I think she's pissed, too, and it comes out whenever things get
touchy. It's like she's asking "Do you love her more than me?" "Do you
still love me as much as you did?" She's going to go after you with
her anger, if she can't get to the interloper. It isn't about the
fight or the wagon. It's about her feeling she's lost your love.
You say that "she doesn't stop until she gets hurt." And when she
gets hurt, you cuddle her, right? Maybe you can bypass all the drama
and go right to cuddling her as much as she wants. And maybe once a
week to start, be with your eldest - just her. No baby.
Robin B.
Vidyut Kale
Reasoning doesn't work, suggestions are not taken up, the situation seems
unresolvable.
So don't solve it. Anger and listening rarely go together. Do something
else. Bring up a treat, start a different exciting game, take them out...
She is in a rage. Why do even more stuff with her that provides
opportunities for resistance? Distract the sister. Look at it a a system and
change it from the point where it is least likely to resist instead of the
most.
When two children are fighting, I often act like I didn't notice the fight,
and ask them for help/invite into something cool that I am up to. Or if the
fight is not realistically not noticeable, I just interrupt like another
excited and demanding kid, become the 'leader' and divert "wait. you can
fight anytime. Check out the fire brigade passing down the street" or
something.. I don't read any intent. The fighting is another thing they are
doing because they want, like playing. Brings attention that if they don't
want, they don't have to. They can watch the fire brigade. Resets the
situation totally and leads to fun.
On a different note, I don't know if offering a physical opportunity to take
out frustration is a good idea for when she is angry. It might be part of
the escalation to the physical expression of anger with you -
she realizes that she can use her body to express that anger. Or the bear
hug, restraining physically, pushing back... Getting physical with an angry
person is rarely a good idea. Frustrated is different. It is a lot of pent
up energy getting blocked and a physical expression can work like a pressure
cooker whistle. Even if the person is frustrated and angry, suggesting
physical contact is a bad idea, particularly with people. Different to go
and punch a punching bag or hurl a few dishes and slam a few doors. Though I
don't know this about kids specifically.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unresolvable.
So don't solve it. Anger and listening rarely go together. Do something
else. Bring up a treat, start a different exciting game, take them out...
She is in a rage. Why do even more stuff with her that provides
opportunities for resistance? Distract the sister. Look at it a a system and
change it from the point where it is least likely to resist instead of the
most.
When two children are fighting, I often act like I didn't notice the fight,
and ask them for help/invite into something cool that I am up to. Or if the
fight is not realistically not noticeable, I just interrupt like another
excited and demanding kid, become the 'leader' and divert "wait. you can
fight anytime. Check out the fire brigade passing down the street" or
something.. I don't read any intent. The fighting is another thing they are
doing because they want, like playing. Brings attention that if they don't
want, they don't have to. They can watch the fire brigade. Resets the
situation totally and leads to fun.
On a different note, I don't know if offering a physical opportunity to take
out frustration is a good idea for when she is angry. It might be part of
the escalation to the physical expression of anger with you -
she realizes that she can use her body to express that anger. Or the bear
hug, restraining physically, pushing back... Getting physical with an angry
person is rarely a good idea. Frustrated is different. It is a lot of pent
up energy getting blocked and a physical expression can work like a pressure
cooker whistle. Even if the person is frustrated and angry, suggesting
physical contact is a bad idea, particularly with people. Different to go
and punch a punching bag or hurl a few dishes and slam a few doors. Though I
don't know this about kids specifically.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
My email was about the moment of anger. i am not saying that do nothing
about the fighting. When she is calm, you can always point out the pattern
you spot and offer help for being able to recognizing it in the moment and
plan ways to work with it. But that is for another time, when she is calm
and open to dialogue. She's your kid forever. It need not necessarily be a
right now thing to fix a fight.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about the fighting. When she is calm, you can always point out the pattern
you spot and offer help for being able to recognizing it in the moment and
plan ways to work with it. But that is for another time, when she is calm
and open to dialogue. She's your kid forever. It need not necessarily be a
right now thing to fix a fight.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't read any intent. The fighting is another thing they are
doing because they want, like playing.-=-
Vidyut, you're not talking about unschoolers. Please try to keep to
the topic, which is unschooling.
You're also not talking about your own children, and the original
question was about how a mother could deal with her own children's
physical altercation.
I have been in squabbles as a kid, somewhat physical (never a total
take-down with punches), and been around kids fighting (and have
broken up several other people's fights), and around adults being
difficult/belligerent/threatening in person and online. Usually one
person is the instigator and the other person is trying to defend a
project, chair, territory, or his own peace. They're not "fighting
because they want, like playing."
-=-When two children are fighting, I often act like I didn't notice
the fight,
and ask them for help/invite into something cool that I am up to.-=-
Distraction is fine. It can work with adult drunks, too.
Look at it without the distraction aspect, and without "children":
-=--=-When a man and woman are fighting, I often act like I didn't
notice the fight,-=-
Most people do that, and many people are wounded or killed because
others didn't respond, didn't move to defend them or break it up.
I went to court twice because a friend and I broke up a "fight" in a
diner, late at night, when a man hit a woman. What was verbal and
irritating turned into yelling and then violence. We were the only
other people in there, and jumped to separate them and talk to them.
The manager of the restaurant called the police. (The first time,
the man failed to appear. The second time, when he saw that there
were witnesses there, he confessed and they didn't have to have us
testify. Still it was kind of a pain to appear, and that was part of
what happened because we helped.)
I think preventing frustration is worlds better than waiting until
it's blossomed into a fight.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doing because they want, like playing.-=-
Vidyut, you're not talking about unschoolers. Please try to keep to
the topic, which is unschooling.
You're also not talking about your own children, and the original
question was about how a mother could deal with her own children's
physical altercation.
I have been in squabbles as a kid, somewhat physical (never a total
take-down with punches), and been around kids fighting (and have
broken up several other people's fights), and around adults being
difficult/belligerent/threatening in person and online. Usually one
person is the instigator and the other person is trying to defend a
project, chair, territory, or his own peace. They're not "fighting
because they want, like playing."
-=-When two children are fighting, I often act like I didn't notice
the fight,
and ask them for help/invite into something cool that I am up to.-=-
Distraction is fine. It can work with adult drunks, too.
Look at it without the distraction aspect, and without "children":
-=--=-When a man and woman are fighting, I often act like I didn't
notice the fight,-=-
Most people do that, and many people are wounded or killed because
others didn't respond, didn't move to defend them or break it up.
I went to court twice because a friend and I broke up a "fight" in a
diner, late at night, when a man hit a woman. What was verbal and
irritating turned into yelling and then violence. We were the only
other people in there, and jumped to separate them and talk to them.
The manager of the restaurant called the police. (The first time,
the man failed to appear. The second time, when he saw that there
were witnesses there, he confessed and they didn't have to have us
testify. Still it was kind of a pain to appear, and that was part of
what happened because we helped.)
I think preventing frustration is worlds better than waiting until
it's blossomed into a fight.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily S
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
The example I gave happened to involve her sister, but I could give many other examples just from this week that have nothing to do with her sister.
I know this is part of why she is having a hard time too. She missed her daddy and I have not been as available to her. But this has been going on, in various frequencies for years, escalating the last few months and now happening multiple times a day this last week, so it's not *just* about the circumstances this week, though I know they are contributing.
>It doesn't seem like she is pissed about having a sister usually. They get along great most of the time and she wants to play with her sister. She really seems to enjoy her over all. If anyone is tagging along it's the 2 year old, because she has been easier, calmer, quieter since the day she was born. I spend more one on one time and over all interaction time with my older one because she is by far more high needs.
> I'm guessing she's pissed because she has a little sister. I know I
> was. It's the rudest thing, that a parent claims to love a child, and
> carries her around and says she's wonderful, and then for some
> entirely inexplicable reason (inexplicable to a three year old) the
> mother brings in a replacement baby and then the older kid is always
> in trouble, always wrong, always too loud, too rough, too too too...
> too abandoned and shunted aside for a poopy, crying "oooh so
> wonderful," carried around disgusting BABY. I still remember.
The example I gave happened to involve her sister, but I could give many other examples just from this week that have nothing to do with her sister.
>The 2 year old doesn't hang out with me. Unless she is nursing or needs something from me like food or water or diaper change, she is happy to do her own thing or hang out with her sister all day long. Of course I *do* engage them both and play with them throughout the day, but it is my 4 year old who needs (and gets) way more attention.
> Here are some ideas of things to do with young children. Plan
> something BEFORE she's cranky. Set things up two or three at a time
> so you have another "station" to move to when she's tired of what
> you've prepared for her. Don't expect her to hang out with you and
> the baby, as a third party to your romance with the baby.
>I am tired. I am tired and frustrated and not being the fun, sparkly, engaged mom I would like to be. I have been on survival mode all week. My husband went from being with us the majority of both days to working 16 hour days for 9 days in a row. We manage an apartment complex, so I had all my normal work to do, plus his work since he was gone. He is home now, for the month, unless he gets called out on a wild fire, so things will be easier.
> From the way you're writing about her, it seems you're tired of her.
> You're saying "every day" and "fight" as though she's a constant
> disruption.
>
I know this is part of why she is having a hard time too. She missed her daddy and I have not been as available to her. But this has been going on, in various frequencies for years, escalating the last few months and now happening multiple times a day this last week, so it's not *just* about the circumstances this week, though I know they are contributing.
>This sound wonderful and it's what I need to do and what I want to do. I was doing a much better job at it until recently. Now it just sounds overwhelming and exhausting.
> She needs you to make her life interesting, sparkly, memorable.
> Memorable for good things, not bad things.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-It need not necessarily be a
right now thing to fix a fight.-=-
Please be more careful when you write.
In the same brief post, you wrote
". i am not saying that do nothing about the fighting."
If you can't decide, or if you don't have time to proofread and post
thoughtfully and carefully, please don't post. Write and hold it and
think about it. ONLY if it's something that will help others
understand unschooling, then, should you post.
-=--=-It need not necessarily be a
right now thing to fix a fight.-=--=-
If a child is hitting another child, it needs to be a right-then thing
to stop that.
If a child is hitting another child, very often it's the fault of the
adult who didn't create a better atmosphere half an hour before that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
right now thing to fix a fight.-=-
Please be more careful when you write.
In the same brief post, you wrote
". i am not saying that do nothing about the fighting."
If you can't decide, or if you don't have time to proofread and post
thoughtfully and carefully, please don't post. Write and hold it and
think about it. ONLY if it's something that will help others
understand unschooling, then, should you post.
-=--=-It need not necessarily be a
right now thing to fix a fight.-=--=-
If a child is hitting another child, it needs to be a right-then thing
to stop that.
If a child is hitting another child, very often it's the fault of the
adult who didn't create a better atmosphere half an hour before that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> She needs you to make her life interesting, sparkly, memorable.
Memorable for good things, not bad things.-=-
-=-This sound wonderful and it's what I need to do and what I want to
do. I was doing a much better job at it until recently. Now it just
sounds overwhelming and exhausting. -=-
Would things be better if she were in school?
If you choose to unschool, you should do it as well as you can. No
one on this list (nor anywhere else) can give you a magic pass.
-=-The 2 year old doesn't hang out with me. Unless she is nursing or
needs something from me like food or water or diaper change, she is
happy to do her own thing or hang out with her sister all day long-=-
The older girl shouldn't be responsible for taking care of or
entertaining a younger sister. Rather than thinking of it as "hanging
out," maybe go more directly to "being."
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Memorable for good things, not bad things.-=-
-=-This sound wonderful and it's what I need to do and what I want to
do. I was doing a much better job at it until recently. Now it just
sounds overwhelming and exhausting. -=-
Would things be better if she were in school?
If you choose to unschool, you should do it as well as you can. No
one on this list (nor anywhere else) can give you a magic pass.
-=-The 2 year old doesn't hang out with me. Unless she is nursing or
needs something from me like food or water or diaper change, she is
happy to do her own thing or hang out with her sister all day long-=-
The older girl shouldn't be responsible for taking care of or
entertaining a younger sister. Rather than thinking of it as "hanging
out," maybe go more directly to "being."
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Why would mom trying to help find a solution enrage a child?
What DOES the child want?
My guess is the child wants to know that the mom still has her back. She
wants to know that mom will step in and support her - completely and
absolutely. She has a clue that maybe mom has divided loyalties and that
scares her and infuriates her.
So - she starts out just annoyed or frustrated by the younger sibling,
but when mom steps in and tries to mediate between them, the older child
gets extremely angry at mom for not 100 percent supporting her against
the intruder.
Maybe if mom simply grasps how it feels/seems to the older child when
she tries to get her to compromise, that will change the dynamics. Don't
try to get her to share. Don't expect her to see from the younger
child's perspective. Instead, help her develop very specific skills for
how to handle the little intruder <g>. For example, Roya would ask if we
could give Roxana a popsicle. Or she'd ask, "Can Roxana take a bath
now?" She'd learned that those were the kinds of things I did when the
two of them were having trouble getting along - I'd find something else
for one of them to do that was more appealing. Since Roxana was littler
and more distractable, usually it meant I enticed her away. But
sometimes I would offer Roya the chance to do something she'd been
wanting -- "How about we go bake those brownies now?"
I gave Roya what seemed at the time a LOT of sympathy for the
inconveniences of having a younger sister. And I didn't try to make it
seem my time and attention was equally divided - because a nursing baby
just really gets a LOT. So what I did was make my relationship with Roya
a super high priority and made us a team. I shared my thoughts about
the baby with her as in, "I wonder what she thinks about, what do you
think?" or "I wonder what she's going to be like when she gets older,
what do you think?" or "Do you think she'd like it if we sang some songs
to her?" I made Roya and I very clearly a team and made it clear that
her role as a big sister was very important and something special
between us. And I made sure we had plenty of time without the baby or
toddler, too, so that I'd not be distracted and could focus on her. I'd
leave Roxana home with my husband for an hour or two and take Roya with
me to get a bite to eat or to have ice cream or even just go to the
99cent store or the library or the do-it-yourself car wash. Maybe I
didn't manage to do that every single day - but really often.
And - a really really important part of this is lots of direct eye
contact and physical contact. Sometimes second kids stress out moms and
exhaust them and moms don't even realize that they've stopped gazing
adoringly into their older child's eyes or touching the child often,
stroking her hair or cheek.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What DOES the child want?
My guess is the child wants to know that the mom still has her back. She
wants to know that mom will step in and support her - completely and
absolutely. She has a clue that maybe mom has divided loyalties and that
scares her and infuriates her.
So - she starts out just annoyed or frustrated by the younger sibling,
but when mom steps in and tries to mediate between them, the older child
gets extremely angry at mom for not 100 percent supporting her against
the intruder.
Maybe if mom simply grasps how it feels/seems to the older child when
she tries to get her to compromise, that will change the dynamics. Don't
try to get her to share. Don't expect her to see from the younger
child's perspective. Instead, help her develop very specific skills for
how to handle the little intruder <g>. For example, Roya would ask if we
could give Roxana a popsicle. Or she'd ask, "Can Roxana take a bath
now?" She'd learned that those were the kinds of things I did when the
two of them were having trouble getting along - I'd find something else
for one of them to do that was more appealing. Since Roxana was littler
and more distractable, usually it meant I enticed her away. But
sometimes I would offer Roya the chance to do something she'd been
wanting -- "How about we go bake those brownies now?"
I gave Roya what seemed at the time a LOT of sympathy for the
inconveniences of having a younger sister. And I didn't try to make it
seem my time and attention was equally divided - because a nursing baby
just really gets a LOT. So what I did was make my relationship with Roya
a super high priority and made us a team. I shared my thoughts about
the baby with her as in, "I wonder what she thinks about, what do you
think?" or "I wonder what she's going to be like when she gets older,
what do you think?" or "Do you think she'd like it if we sang some songs
to her?" I made Roya and I very clearly a team and made it clear that
her role as a big sister was very important and something special
between us. And I made sure we had plenty of time without the baby or
toddler, too, so that I'd not be distracted and could focus on her. I'd
leave Roxana home with my husband for an hour or two and take Roya with
me to get a bite to eat or to have ice cream or even just go to the
99cent store or the library or the do-it-yourself car wash. Maybe I
didn't manage to do that every single day - but really often.
And - a really really important part of this is lots of direct eye
contact and physical contact. Sometimes second kids stress out moms and
exhaust them and moms don't even realize that they've stopped gazing
adoringly into their older child's eyes or touching the child often,
stroking her hair or cheek.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily S
> Would things be better if she were in school?No, she wouldn't be better off in school. The last few weeks have been a difficult season, but it's temporary and I am working on getting things back to fun and sparkly. I was just expressing my tiredness and frustration, but I know this isn't a support group, so I wasn't expecting a magic pass or a pat on the back. Thank you for the reminder that school is a choice. It's not the choice we have made, however, so I need to get back to making unschooling amazing instead of just surviving.
> If you choose to unschool, you should do it as well as you can. No
> one on this list (nor anywhere else) can give you a magic pass.
>
Emily
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/27/2010 11:47 PM, Emily S wrote:
I did see that you said this isn't only about sibling issues (although
it is telling that that is the one example you gave). I wanted to add to
my post by saying that hypersensitivity and angry response on your older
child's part, even when it is not a direct result of a sibling
interaction, can still result from that same feeling of mom's divided
loyalties. The solution is still the same - offer huge amounts of direct
attention and eye contact and physical contact. And loving smiles and
sweet words! She needs reassurance of your complete and total love.
-pam
> The last few weeks have been a difficult season, but it's temporaryWe all go through phases.
> and I am working on getting things back to fun and sparkly.
I did see that you said this isn't only about sibling issues (although
it is telling that that is the one example you gave). I wanted to add to
my post by saying that hypersensitivity and angry response on your older
child's part, even when it is not a direct result of a sibling
interaction, can still result from that same feeling of mom's divided
loyalties. The solution is still the same - offer huge amounts of direct
attention and eye contact and physical contact. And loving smiles and
sweet words! She needs reassurance of your complete and total love.
-pam
Emily S
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
However, when we are home, I don't notice any of the same clues. She seems to go from perfectly happy to stuck and fighting in a few seconds.
Emily
>If we are in a large group of people or she has been playing real hard, I can see the signs of her becoming overwhelmed and I respond to those. We've actually made great strides in the last few months going from her having huge meltdowns to now pretty consistently telling me when she is feeling overwhelmed. She can now tell me that she needs a quiet place and I help her find one or I see that she is getting overwhelmed and I help her get some space. That came from me observing her clues and responding to them.
> -=6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids
> drop just
> before the storm hits. -=-
>
> Not always.
> Often, yes.
> Not always.
>
However, when we are home, I don't notice any of the same clues. She seems to go from perfectly happy to stuck and fighting in a few seconds.
Emily
Emily S
> This is what I was thinking. I read back to the post about your eldestShe begs to babysit her sister now! lol And really all that entails is her playing with her sister for 5 minutes or less to earn a quarter and it is totally optional. It was just one of many things I had tried to give me 5 minutes in the office when I have to deal with a resident and my dh isn't home.
> wanting to be with you when you're working. I wondered about you
> paying her to babysit her 2 year old sister.
>She is definitely pissed about something. It doesn't seem to be her sister, but I will keep it in mind and make sure I am giving her lots of attention.
> I think she's pissed, too, and it comes out whenever things get
> touchy. It's like she's asking "Do you love her more than me?" "Do you
> still love me as much as you did?" She's going to go after you with
> her anger, if she can't get to the interloper. It isn't about the
> fight or the wagon. It's about her feeling she's lost your love.
>
> You say that "she doesn't stop until she gets hurt." And when sheYes! My husband and I have been talking about having "date nights" with the kids and trading off who takes which kid and who goes out and who stays in. It's time to stop talking and start doing it! Thanks for the reminder.
> gets hurt, you cuddle her, right? Maybe you can bypass all the drama
> and go right to cuddling her as much as she wants. And maybe once a
> week to start, be with your eldest - just her. No baby.
>
> Robin B.
>
Emily
Emily S
>This post and other things I have seen you write about Roxana remind me of myself and my oldest daughter. She is lucky to have you to help her learn how to handle that anger when she was young. I am learning it on my own, now, at 23 and trying to figure out how to help my daughter at the same time. What were the things that helped the most when Roxana was this age?
> There were were seldom clues before Roxana would suddenly be angry.
> Sandra talked about different people's bodies handling adrenaline
> differently - and how it could be a developmental thing. Looking back, I
> realize that Roxana simply didn't sense it coming - before she knew it
> she was awash with adrenaline and anger. She WANTED to be abe to control
> it - to head it off - to try to breathe before it hit. But there was no
> build-up for her - it was a huge rush all at once.
>
>
> -pam
>
>
Emily
RobynC
>I have noticed over time that Jayn is a perfect little mirror for my emotional state.
> I am tired. I am tired and frustrated and not being the fun, sparkly, engaged mom I would like to be. I have been on survival mode all week. My husband went from being with us the majority of both days to working 16 hour days for 9 days in a row. We manage an apartment complex, so I had all my normal work to do, plus his work since he was gone. He is home now, for the month, unless he gets called out on a wild fire, so things will be easier.
>
> I know this is part of why she is having a hard time too. She missed her daddy and I have not been as available to her. But this has been going on, in various frequencies for years, escalating the last few months and now happening multiple times a day this last week, so it's not *just* about the circumstances this week, though I know they are contributing. >>>>>
If I am tired, frustrated, stressed, pms'ing, worried about money, or carrying some half examined resentment towards my dh (even with the full knowledge that his absence or actions are necessary and my feelings are not at all reasonable) - then Jayn seems to display all of those feelings in her behavior towards me.
Examining and addressing my own emotions also helps her be happier. It's not the whole story, but it's worth considering.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/28/2010 12:43 AM, Emily S wrote:
Lots of solitude available.
Her own space.
Me to protect her desire to get away and be in her own space.
HUGE amounts of reassurance that I loved her. She once said, "You love
me, but you don't like me." This was after I'd lost my patience with her
losing hers. After that I made much more pointed and clear indications
about what I liked about her and that's when I realized that she needed
more physical contact and eye contact.
But I'm not sure I can take credit for her maturity. She grew up. I
think her body handles the chemicals and nervous system reactions better
now.
-pam
> What were the things that helped the most when Roxana was this age?An escape route available at all times.
Lots of solitude available.
Her own space.
Me to protect her desire to get away and be in her own space.
HUGE amounts of reassurance that I loved her. She once said, "You love
me, but you don't like me." This was after I'd lost my patience with her
losing hers. After that I made much more pointed and clear indications
about what I liked about her and that's when I realized that she needed
more physical contact and eye contact.
But I'm not sure I can take credit for her maturity. She grew up. I
think her body handles the chemicals and nervous system reactions better
now.
-pam
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Emily S wrote:
this may be for others reading a long, but she both lost and gained
things when the baby came along. Even if she feels the baby is much
more good than bad, depending on what's going on in her life, those
losses and gains won't always balance the same. If she's already
irritated by something else, the bad points may outweigh the good
points and add to her irritation. And that's something that parents
should be sensitive to if they want to connect to their kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It doesn't seem like she is pissed about having a sister usually.Though it does sound like it's more wanting you and your husband, so
> They get along great most of the time and she wants to play with her
> sister. She really seems to enjoy her over all.
this may be for others reading a long, but she both lost and gained
things when the baby came along. Even if she feels the baby is much
more good than bad, depending on what's going on in her life, those
losses and gains won't always balance the same. If she's already
irritated by something else, the bad points may outweigh the good
points and add to her irritation. And that's something that parents
should be sensitive to if they want to connect to their kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
-=6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids
drop just before the storm hits. -=-
To me, these clues are not big. If you've been around tons of noise
and motion most of your life in the midst of family, you may not pay
attention to it when you're an adult. It's just swirl. I think it's a
personality thing to be aware or unaware of whether someone is yawning
or droopy. Or spazzy in need of protein. Kids grow soooo fast and they
get hungry it seems incredibly suddenly.
It's not easy for me to see these things unless Karl is practically in
my lap or leaning on me or something like that. He does that a lot
(not all kids do) and so I'm lucky. The kind of fighting that he does
is almost always physical not verbal at all except as noise. I was the
same way. Fights were never about disagreement but feeling and the
fact that they usually include words doesn't mean the fight is about
ideas.
I almost always go for the protein first, sometimes without even
asking because once Karl gets that sudden hunger + anger thing, he
isn't coherent enough for making decisions about what to eat or if he
even wants to. I just offer it and see if he takes it. Well over half
the time, he wants food. The other times he just wants a change of
scenery. I have so many things laying about ready to go to, not being
much on putting them away, the kind of person who wants to see what I
have ... so I feel lucky there too.
~Katherine
drop just before the storm hits. -=-
To me, these clues are not big. If you've been around tons of noise
and motion most of your life in the midst of family, you may not pay
attention to it when you're an adult. It's just swirl. I think it's a
personality thing to be aware or unaware of whether someone is yawning
or droopy. Or spazzy in need of protein. Kids grow soooo fast and they
get hungry it seems incredibly suddenly.
It's not easy for me to see these things unless Karl is practically in
my lap or leaning on me or something like that. He does that a lot
(not all kids do) and so I'm lucky. The kind of fighting that he does
is almost always physical not verbal at all except as noise. I was the
same way. Fights were never about disagreement but feeling and the
fact that they usually include words doesn't mean the fight is about
ideas.
I almost always go for the protein first, sometimes without even
asking because once Karl gets that sudden hunger + anger thing, he
isn't coherent enough for making decisions about what to eat or if he
even wants to. I just offer it and see if he takes it. Well over half
the time, he wants food. The other times he just wants a change of
scenery. I have so many things laying about ready to go to, not being
much on putting them away, the kind of person who wants to see what I
have ... so I feel lucky there too.
~Katherine
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=6. Are you paying attention? There are always big big clues kids
> drop just
> before the storm hits. -=-
>
> Not always.
> Often, yes.
> Not always.
>
> -=My kids fight less when we bike to a park or mall. Leave the house.-=-
>
> I totally used this. Change of scene; change of venue. And when it
> quits going well there, go to another place, not just straight back
> home.
>
> -=Crispin is seven and currently wants a cowboy outfit and formal
> suit(black
> jacket with matching pants, a button down shirt and tie).-=-
>
> Thrift store!! Little boys rarely wear suits or costumes out; they
> outgrow.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- but I know this isn't a support group, so I wasn't expecting a
magic pass or a pat on the back.-=-
Support groups can't give magic passes either.
A pat on the back from someone (or a group of someones) who does
nothing BUT give pats on the back isn't very valuable.
I'm sorry for the frustration people feel when others say "Don't try
to fix your child; change your own behavior," but this is one of the
only places anywhere people hear that, and I suppose this list is as
easy as anything to get away from. :-)
For those who have recently joined the list, especially for any of
those who are surprised it's "not a support group," a collection of
supportive "advice" is here:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
magic pass or a pat on the back.-=-
Support groups can't give magic passes either.
A pat on the back from someone (or a group of someones) who does
nothing BUT give pats on the back isn't very valuable.
I'm sorry for the frustration people feel when others say "Don't try
to fix your child; change your own behavior," but this is one of the
only places anywhere people hear that, and I suppose this list is as
easy as anything to get away from. :-)
For those who have recently joined the list, especially for any of
those who are surprised it's "not a support group," a collection of
supportive "advice" is here:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> > It doesn't seem like she is pissed about having a sister usually.She can really enjoy having the sister to play with and may think the
> > They get along great most of the time and she wants to play with her
> > sister. She really seems to enjoy her over all.
sister is cute and all that - but still need more reassurance that mom
is still 100 percent on her side.
-pam