Labels [AlwaysLearning] Re: Random bursts of hyperactivity
Vidyut Kale
Wanted to share what I believe as the impact of labels.
In 1968, after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jane Elliott, an
American third-grade teacher conducted a famous experiment on her children.
She was concerned to expose the horrors of discrimination and she told her
pupils that blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely
to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who she described
as untrustworthy, lazy and stupid. She made a point of praising the
blue-eyed children, and being more negative to the browns. She also gave the
blue-eyed extra privileges.
Within a day or so, the blue-eyed children had improved their grades, and
managed tasks which had proved out of their grasp before whereas previously
well-achieving brown-eyed children found even simple tasks hard. A few days
later, Jane Elliott told her class that she�d got the eye-colour information
wrong and that it was actually brown-eyed people who were superior. The
situation quickly reversed.
From http://www.new-paradigm.co.uk/introduction_to_ai.htm
Actually, I was looking for data on a different experiment called the
Pygmalion studies, where teachers were told that kids in one class were
dull/naughty and the others were bright/clever, and that is why they had
been put in different divisions. The children actually were just randomly
split. The experiment also came under a lot of criticism and had to be
discontinued because while the children labeled 'good' achieved great
progress and well being, the 'naughty' ones went through a lot of damage to
their self-esteem. I had a link somewhere. Will try to hunt for it on the
other computer. There are also others in non-schooling contexts all boiling
down to "we find what we focus on".
Parallel studies showed that the unconscious mind, which is responsible for
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.
I have experienced seeing symptoms of disorders in my son simply because I
was focusing on figuring out his symptoms. They didn't exist, but he started
suffering when I started seeing as someone 'with a problem'. Fortunately it
was a brief phase, but when I stopped, I had felt certain that I could have
caused a lot of damage. If I focused on his developmental delay, he somehow
seemed even less mobile than he seemed to be.
I now try to move away from labels and negative descriptors to provide N
with an environment free from unnecessary projections.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In 1968, after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jane Elliott, an
American third-grade teacher conducted a famous experiment on her children.
She was concerned to expose the horrors of discrimination and she told her
pupils that blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely
to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who she described
as untrustworthy, lazy and stupid. She made a point of praising the
blue-eyed children, and being more negative to the browns. She also gave the
blue-eyed extra privileges.
Within a day or so, the blue-eyed children had improved their grades, and
managed tasks which had proved out of their grasp before whereas previously
well-achieving brown-eyed children found even simple tasks hard. A few days
later, Jane Elliott told her class that she�d got the eye-colour information
wrong and that it was actually brown-eyed people who were superior. The
situation quickly reversed.
From http://www.new-paradigm.co.uk/introduction_to_ai.htm
Actually, I was looking for data on a different experiment called the
Pygmalion studies, where teachers were told that kids in one class were
dull/naughty and the others were bright/clever, and that is why they had
been put in different divisions. The children actually were just randomly
split. The experiment also came under a lot of criticism and had to be
discontinued because while the children labeled 'good' achieved great
progress and well being, the 'naughty' ones went through a lot of damage to
their self-esteem. I had a link somewhere. Will try to hunt for it on the
other computer. There are also others in non-schooling contexts all boiling
down to "we find what we focus on".
Parallel studies showed that the unconscious mind, which is responsible for
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.
I have experienced seeing symptoms of disorders in my son simply because I
was focusing on figuring out his symptoms. They didn't exist, but he started
suffering when I started seeing as someone 'with a problem'. Fortunately it
was a brief phase, but when I stopped, I had felt certain that I could have
caused a lot of damage. If I focused on his developmental delay, he somehow
seemed even less mobile than he seemed to be.
I now try to move away from labels and negative descriptors to provide N
with an environment free from unnecessary projections.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/18/gender-policing-hurts-kids/
"Gender policing."
One of the quotes I like: "...it isn’t being different that put kids
at risk, it’s being punished for being different."
People can go too far in either direction. It's as wrong, I think, to
tell a child to "act right" all the time (the mainstream way) as it is
to say "Act however you want to, wherever you want to, and anyone who
doesn't like it is an asshole" (the too-extreme over-reactionary way).
Sandra
"Gender policing."
One of the quotes I like: "...it isn’t being different that put kids
at risk, it’s being punished for being different."
People can go too far in either direction. It's as wrong, I think, to
tell a child to "act right" all the time (the mainstream way) as it is
to say "Act however you want to, wherever you want to, and anyone who
doesn't like it is an asshole" (the too-extreme over-reactionary way).
Sandra
[email protected]
Yes love this. We really need to be more tolerant of that which we consider unconventional + non conformity after all what is normal and who says the systems in place are beneficial for us.
Best
Claire
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message-----
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:07:15
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Subject: Labels [AlwaysLearning] Re: Random bursts of hyperactivity
Wanted to share what I believe as the impact of labels.
In 1968, after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jane Elliott, an
American third-grade teacher conducted a famous experiment on her children.
She was concerned to expose the horrors of discrimination and she told her
pupils that blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely
to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who she described
as untrustworthy, lazy and stupid. She made a point of praising the
blue-eyed children, and being more negative to the browns. She also gave the
blue-eyed extra privileges.
Within a day or so, the blue-eyed children had improved their grades, and
managed tasks which had proved out of their grasp before whereas previously
well-achieving brown-eyed children found even simple tasks hard. A few days
later, Jane Elliott told her class that she’d got the eye-colour information
wrong and that it was actually brown-eyed people who were superior. The
situation quickly reversed.
From http://www.new-paradigm.co.uk/introduction_to_ai.htm
Actually, I was looking for data on a different experiment called the
Pygmalion studies, where teachers were told that kids in one class were
dull/naughty and the others were bright/clever, and that is why they had
been put in different divisions. The children actually were just randomly
split. The experiment also came under a lot of criticism and had to be
discontinued because while the children labeled 'good' achieved great
progress and well being, the 'naughty' ones went through a lot of damage to
their self-esteem. I had a link somewhere. Will try to hunt for it on the
other computer. There are also others in non-schooling contexts all boiling
down to "we find what we focus on".
Parallel studies showed that the unconscious mind, which is responsible for
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.
I have experienced seeing symptoms of disorders in my son simply because I
was focusing on figuring out his symptoms. They didn't exist, but he started
suffering when I started seeing as someone 'with a problem'. Fortunately it
was a brief phase, but when I stopped, I had felt certain that I could have
caused a lot of damage. If I focused on his developmental delay, he somehow
seemed even less mobile than he seemed to be.
I now try to move away from labels and negative descriptors to provide N
with an environment free from unnecessary projections.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Best
Claire
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message-----
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:07:15
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Subject: Labels [AlwaysLearning] Re: Random bursts of hyperactivity
Wanted to share what I believe as the impact of labels.
In 1968, after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jane Elliott, an
American third-grade teacher conducted a famous experiment on her children.
She was concerned to expose the horrors of discrimination and she told her
pupils that blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely
to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who she described
as untrustworthy, lazy and stupid. She made a point of praising the
blue-eyed children, and being more negative to the browns. She also gave the
blue-eyed extra privileges.
Within a day or so, the blue-eyed children had improved their grades, and
managed tasks which had proved out of their grasp before whereas previously
well-achieving brown-eyed children found even simple tasks hard. A few days
later, Jane Elliott told her class that she’d got the eye-colour information
wrong and that it was actually brown-eyed people who were superior. The
situation quickly reversed.
From http://www.new-paradigm.co.uk/introduction_to_ai.htm
Actually, I was looking for data on a different experiment called the
Pygmalion studies, where teachers were told that kids in one class were
dull/naughty and the others were bright/clever, and that is why they had
been put in different divisions. The children actually were just randomly
split. The experiment also came under a lot of criticism and had to be
discontinued because while the children labeled 'good' achieved great
progress and well being, the 'naughty' ones went through a lot of damage to
their self-esteem. I had a link somewhere. Will try to hunt for it on the
other computer. There are also others in non-schooling contexts all boiling
down to "we find what we focus on".
Parallel studies showed that the unconscious mind, which is responsible for
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.
I have experienced seeing symptoms of disorders in my son simply because I
was focusing on figuring out his symptoms. They didn't exist, but he started
suffering when I started seeing as someone 'with a problem'. Fortunately it
was a brief phase, but when I stopped, I had felt certain that I could have
caused a lot of damage. If I focused on his developmental delay, he somehow
seemed even less mobile than he seemed to be.
I now try to move away from labels and negative descriptors to provide N
with an environment free from unnecessary projections.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Jenny Cyphers
***Parallel studies showed that the unconscious mind, which is responsible for
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.***
This idea is similar to saying "yes" more. It takes a rephrasing of thought to do it. If a child is running by the pool and you want them to stop, instead of saying "stop running", you say "walk please", the results are by far more effective. That was one of those parenting epiphanies I had years ago, to rephrase to let my child know what I wanted rather than what I didn't want. It's so ingrained in me that I still catch myself. It's something that I consciously work at.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
most of what we do doesn't really understand 'no', since it processes in
images, not words. No is an absense. "Don't go the swimming pool" brings the
swimming pool to mind even if the person wasn't thinking of it. "You are not
ugly" brings up the impression of ugly, not beauty.***
This idea is similar to saying "yes" more. It takes a rephrasing of thought to do it. If a child is running by the pool and you want them to stop, instead of saying "stop running", you say "walk please", the results are by far more effective. That was one of those parenting epiphanies I had years ago, to rephrase to let my child know what I wanted rather than what I didn't want. It's so ingrained in me that I still catch myself. It's something that I consciously work at.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
"This idea is similar to saying "yes" more. It takes a rephrasing of thought
to do it. If a child is running by the pool and you want them to stop,
instead of saying "stop running", you say "walk please", the results are by
far more effective."
Oh yes.
A few months ago, I took N to visit a cousin with a two year old son. We got
along fine while his mother was cooking, playing and chatting about life in
general and him telling Nisarga many 'clever' things as Nisarga did his
solemn observation routine. When his mother came out, she went "Look
sweetie, isn't it a cute baby? His skin is so soft. No, don't touch! Don't
hurt the baby, sweetie. He will cry..." Way to go. Tell a kid trying to get
a response from a baby exactly what he can do to get a response. The rest of
the visit was an exercise in protecting N from his cousin. Till his mother
spoke, the possibility that he could hurt N hadn't occurred to him, nor had
touching acquired the forbidden quality (making it more stressful and his
actions jerky and less controllable, more adamant, sneaky and more likely to
hurt N).
Though I guess this is more about 'no' suggesting possibilities for
undesired actions that otherwise were not a problem.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to do it. If a child is running by the pool and you want them to stop,
instead of saying "stop running", you say "walk please", the results are by
far more effective."
Oh yes.
A few months ago, I took N to visit a cousin with a two year old son. We got
along fine while his mother was cooking, playing and chatting about life in
general and him telling Nisarga many 'clever' things as Nisarga did his
solemn observation routine. When his mother came out, she went "Look
sweetie, isn't it a cute baby? His skin is so soft. No, don't touch! Don't
hurt the baby, sweetie. He will cry..." Way to go. Tell a kid trying to get
a response from a baby exactly what he can do to get a response. The rest of
the visit was an exercise in protecting N from his cousin. Till his mother
spoke, the possibility that he could hurt N hadn't occurred to him, nor had
touching acquired the forbidden quality (making it more stressful and his
actions jerky and less controllable, more adamant, sneaky and more likely to
hurt N).
Though I guess this is more about 'no' suggesting possibilities for
undesired actions that otherwise were not a problem.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>this is more about 'no' suggesting possibilities forundesired actions that otherwise were not a problem<<<
Yes.. that IS the problem with no. It frequently makes unnecessary suggestions.
~Katherine
tbhager
Hi,
I'm fairly new to this group so I hope it is okay if I post. I've been following along with the posts relating to labels and labeling children with ADHD etc.. and been starting to question myself. I do understand the reasoning for not labeling children and have never done so with my five year old who could definitely fit into something if I tried, he's very unique.
Through all of the posts I read, somewhere it was mentioned that hopefully anyone considering labeling could stop before it was too late. Reading that made me anxious and I want to be sure that I'm doing the right thing with the following situation, especially when I saw the gender issue that was posted.
My oldest is 7 and he wants to be a girl. REALLY wants to be a girl! From as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with girl toys (which I've never had a problem with, but other family members did). He also insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let him. I didn't think it was a big deal. He would wear dresses all day and sleep in them all night.
Over the last while though he has insisted that he wants to BE a girl, not just dress like one. A lot of my family think it is my fault, that I 'encouraged' this, which I don't believe. So I started searching online and came across 'transgender' which would be a 'label'. Finding that helped me to find other parents dealing with the same issue with their children and helped me decide what to do - let her be a girl. So I finally said 'yes' to her and she was the most excited and happy I've ever seen her. She bounced all over the place and started writing up a list of what a girl needs. She chose a girl name for herself.
I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm now confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?
I don't know why I'm finding this so confusing, but I really just want to make sure that I'm not making a mistake before its too late.
Thank you,
Brianne
I'm fairly new to this group so I hope it is okay if I post. I've been following along with the posts relating to labels and labeling children with ADHD etc.. and been starting to question myself. I do understand the reasoning for not labeling children and have never done so with my five year old who could definitely fit into something if I tried, he's very unique.
Through all of the posts I read, somewhere it was mentioned that hopefully anyone considering labeling could stop before it was too late. Reading that made me anxious and I want to be sure that I'm doing the right thing with the following situation, especially when I saw the gender issue that was posted.
My oldest is 7 and he wants to be a girl. REALLY wants to be a girl! From as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with girl toys (which I've never had a problem with, but other family members did). He also insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let him. I didn't think it was a big deal. He would wear dresses all day and sleep in them all night.
Over the last while though he has insisted that he wants to BE a girl, not just dress like one. A lot of my family think it is my fault, that I 'encouraged' this, which I don't believe. So I started searching online and came across 'transgender' which would be a 'label'. Finding that helped me to find other parents dealing with the same issue with their children and helped me decide what to do - let her be a girl. So I finally said 'yes' to her and she was the most excited and happy I've ever seen her. She bounced all over the place and started writing up a list of what a girl needs. She chose a girl name for herself.
I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm now confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?
I don't know why I'm finding this so confusing, but I really just want to make sure that I'm not making a mistake before its too late.
Thank you,
Brianne
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/18/gender-policing-hurts-kids/
>
> "Gender policing."
>
> One of the quotes I like: "...it isn't being different that put kids
> at risk, it's being punished for being different."
>
> People can go too far in either direction. It's as wrong, I think, to
> tell a child to "act right" all the time (the mainstream way) as it is
> to say "Act however you want to, wherever you want to, and anyone who
> doesn't like it is an asshole" (the too-extreme over-reactionary way).
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-My oldest is 7 and he wants to be a girl. REALLY wants to be a
girl! From as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with
girl toys (which I've never had a problem with, but other family
members did). He also insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let
him. I didn't think it was a big deal. He would wear dresses all day
and sleep in them all night.-=-
How does his dad/(your husband, if...) feel about it?
-=-I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm now
confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and
myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?-=-
I wouldn't write a Christmas letter about it, but maybe something
*like* a letter that you give anyone who has a need to know could be a
good idea.
It's a label, but it's a label like "girl" or "boy." A girl with a
penis isn't a girl, so that could necessitate a label.
I know a couple of male-to-female adults (neither is still local or
close with me) and one female to male (lost touch years ago). It's a
biggie.
-=-Finding that helped me to find other parents dealing with the same
issue with their children and helped me decide what to do - let her be
a girl. So I finally said 'yes' to her -=-
Your permission isn't "to let her be a girl." It's for you to
acknowledge and treat him as he's requested. There's a possibility
that it's a phase. I know; probably not. But sometimes someone is a
certain way for many years, and when puberty comes, whatever it was
changes. After that, sometimes when sexual relations or true love
come along, it can look different yet again.
I think treading lightly and not making a total change from one
extreme to another is probably a wise way to go. There are legalities
you'll have to deal with. People can't really just choose. It's
possible to avoid many of them, but not all of them. At some point
when money or rights are involved, or oaths (passport/jury duty) or
affidavits, there could be problems in the realm of fraud.
Explaining those things (lightly) as you go along now is probably
wise, too. If you tell your child "Okay! You can change your
gender!" he/she might think you the mom actually have the authority to
DO that.
Interestingly, this was written before this post was approved and
posted, but it's pretty wonderfully applicable:
Meredith wrote:
-=- I've found it helpful to talk with adults who have things in
common with my kids - it doesn't have to be everything, and I'm not so
much looking at diagnoses as commonalities - and learn a bit more
about them as people. It helped me to see real life examples of how
quirky, funky, out-of-the-box people live their lives, what kinds of
jobs they have, what their relationships are like. It helped me to
step away from fears of what my kids might "grow up to be" and see
them as people. -=-
Maybe you could, through your contacts among transgender support sites
or groups, find a sort of big brother or big sister for your child.
I would make this part of the deal, if it were my child: In exchange
for accepting and aiding and abetting the wardrobe, name and toy deal,
for family gatherings (weddings, funerals) I'd request as gender-
neutral-as-possible clothes.
There can be problems with going too far too fast.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
It's not about that, but it's applicable in general.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
girl! From as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with
girl toys (which I've never had a problem with, but other family
members did). He also insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let
him. I didn't think it was a big deal. He would wear dresses all day
and sleep in them all night.-=-
How does his dad/(your husband, if...) feel about it?
-=-I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm now
confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and
myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?-=-
I wouldn't write a Christmas letter about it, but maybe something
*like* a letter that you give anyone who has a need to know could be a
good idea.
It's a label, but it's a label like "girl" or "boy." A girl with a
penis isn't a girl, so that could necessitate a label.
I know a couple of male-to-female adults (neither is still local or
close with me) and one female to male (lost touch years ago). It's a
biggie.
-=-Finding that helped me to find other parents dealing with the same
issue with their children and helped me decide what to do - let her be
a girl. So I finally said 'yes' to her -=-
Your permission isn't "to let her be a girl." It's for you to
acknowledge and treat him as he's requested. There's a possibility
that it's a phase. I know; probably not. But sometimes someone is a
certain way for many years, and when puberty comes, whatever it was
changes. After that, sometimes when sexual relations or true love
come along, it can look different yet again.
I think treading lightly and not making a total change from one
extreme to another is probably a wise way to go. There are legalities
you'll have to deal with. People can't really just choose. It's
possible to avoid many of them, but not all of them. At some point
when money or rights are involved, or oaths (passport/jury duty) or
affidavits, there could be problems in the realm of fraud.
Explaining those things (lightly) as you go along now is probably
wise, too. If you tell your child "Okay! You can change your
gender!" he/she might think you the mom actually have the authority to
DO that.
Interestingly, this was written before this post was approved and
posted, but it's pretty wonderfully applicable:
Meredith wrote:
-=- I've found it helpful to talk with adults who have things in
common with my kids - it doesn't have to be everything, and I'm not so
much looking at diagnoses as commonalities - and learn a bit more
about them as people. It helped me to see real life examples of how
quirky, funky, out-of-the-box people live their lives, what kinds of
jobs they have, what their relationships are like. It helped me to
step away from fears of what my kids might "grow up to be" and see
them as people. -=-
Maybe you could, through your contacts among transgender support sites
or groups, find a sort of big brother or big sister for your child.
I would make this part of the deal, if it were my child: In exchange
for accepting and aiding and abetting the wardrobe, name and toy deal,
for family gatherings (weddings, funerals) I'd request as gender-
neutral-as-possible clothes.
There can be problems with going too far too fast.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
It's not about that, but it's applicable in general.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 26, 2010, at 4:52 PM, tbhager wrote:
ADHD or Aspergers.
For some the ADHD label is freeing because it's a pass out of the box
labeled normal that everyone kept trying to cram them into but never
fit. The danger is ending up in -- even unconsciously, even
occasionally -- an ADHD box because of the label. The ADHD box can be
just as limiting because it focuses on the commonalities the people in
the box share.
The same can be said of Jewish and African American too but, at least
there's an accepted message -- even if not always practiced -- out in
society that all people should be seen as people first before their
differences. It would be nice if transgender were as accepted but
there is still a lot of negativity.
Sandra brings up some good points about her understanding the
reactions she's likely to run across. Not in a fearful way to avoid
them, but in knowing how people may react and making an informed
decision whether she wants to put up with it or not. (Just as I pick
and choose when it's worthwhile to tell people I'm an unschooler.)
Lots will depend on her personality. Going slow for most kids is
probably a good idea, to get a feel for the reaction. And for those
that won't need to go slow, the kids probably won't give the parents
much control in the matter ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm nowI think transgender is more like being African American than being
> confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and
> myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?
ADHD or Aspergers.
For some the ADHD label is freeing because it's a pass out of the box
labeled normal that everyone kept trying to cram them into but never
fit. The danger is ending up in -- even unconsciously, even
occasionally -- an ADHD box because of the label. The ADHD box can be
just as limiting because it focuses on the commonalities the people in
the box share.
The same can be said of Jewish and African American too but, at least
there's an accepted message -- even if not always practiced -- out in
society that all people should be seen as people first before their
differences. It would be nice if transgender were as accepted but
there is still a lot of negativity.
Sandra brings up some good points about her understanding the
reactions she's likely to run across. Not in a fearful way to avoid
them, but in knowing how people may react and making an informed
decision whether she wants to put up with it or not. (Just as I pick
and choose when it's worthwhile to tell people I'm an unschooler.)
Lots will depend on her personality. Going slow for most kids is
probably a good idea, to get a feel for the reaction. And for those
that won't need to go slow, the kids probably won't give the parents
much control in the matter ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Jun 26, 2010, at 4:52 PM, tbhager wrote:
I think it's unlikely that your daughter is in a "phase"--kids often have a really clear sense of who they are from a very young age (when I was pregnant with Eric, friends asked if we were going to avoid gender pronouns etc. with our children, and David said, "No, we're going to go with the apparent biological sex. The kid will let us know soon enough if we're wrong.").
Still, I might not talk too much about a youngish child being "transgender," for reasons that don't have much to do with labeling. One is that the child might prefer to be referred to as a girl. I know that David isn't typically "out" as transsexual in his life (even though we were VERY out as lesbians prior to his transition) because he just wants people to see him as a guy. I can imagine a child who feels herself to be a girl feeling invalidated or "othered" (I hate that word but can't think of a better one this second) by being called transgendered.
Also, it may be less challenging for friends and family to talk about it, not as a phase, but as the place she is right now that you have decided to support her in 100%. They may be able to accept that more readily, since people often have a really hard time believing kids know themselves and what's right for them. You might get a lot of push-back if you call your child transgendered that you might not get otherwise. I don't know for sure, though. These are just thoughts. It could be possible that the opposite is true, that using the term "transgendered" would give family and friends a lens to look through that would help them understand and accept your child. Certainly it gives them something to google. ;-)
Also, affirming your 7-year-old's sense that she is a girl is very powerful, brave, and respectful. If your child's sense of herself as a girl persists, you'll have to make decisions with her about things like pre-puberty interventions that increase the chances of her growing up with the kind of body and voice that will allow her to be perceived in the world as the person she knows herself to be. "Transgendered" doesn't strike me as a label in the same way that "ADHD," "dyslexic," "oppositional," "lazy," etc. do--it's not thrown around casually, it's not over-applied in schools, it's not ever a stand-in for "this is a child we find challenging and we want to put the onus on her to accommodate herself to our needs," it's not a judgment or a pre-applied limit on what she can accomplish. In the case of a child like yours, it's an affirmation that she is who she knows herself to be.
No child ever self-identifies as ADHD or learning disabled before an adult applies that label. No kid is ever empowered by saying, "I'm lazy," and the parent saying, "You're right, and I'm going to make sure all your friends and family know it." But a child IS empowered when they say, "My body says I'm female but I KNOW I'm male," and the parent says, "You're right, and I'm going to help you navigate that in the world so you can be strong and healthy in that identity."
It strikes me as a different kind of thing altogether as I think about it.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> I really think that I am doing the right thing, but what I'm now confused about is whether or not telling friends and family (and myself!) that she is 'transgender' is a bad thing?My partner is a transsexual and we have gazillions of trans friends and loved ones and I want to start by thanking you for being so supportive of your child. (Really. I would come through the internet and hug you if I could, and if that were the kind of thing that was OK with you. Because so many non-gender-typical kids have it so rough.)
I think it's unlikely that your daughter is in a "phase"--kids often have a really clear sense of who they are from a very young age (when I was pregnant with Eric, friends asked if we were going to avoid gender pronouns etc. with our children, and David said, "No, we're going to go with the apparent biological sex. The kid will let us know soon enough if we're wrong.").
Still, I might not talk too much about a youngish child being "transgender," for reasons that don't have much to do with labeling. One is that the child might prefer to be referred to as a girl. I know that David isn't typically "out" as transsexual in his life (even though we were VERY out as lesbians prior to his transition) because he just wants people to see him as a guy. I can imagine a child who feels herself to be a girl feeling invalidated or "othered" (I hate that word but can't think of a better one this second) by being called transgendered.
Also, it may be less challenging for friends and family to talk about it, not as a phase, but as the place she is right now that you have decided to support her in 100%. They may be able to accept that more readily, since people often have a really hard time believing kids know themselves and what's right for them. You might get a lot of push-back if you call your child transgendered that you might not get otherwise. I don't know for sure, though. These are just thoughts. It could be possible that the opposite is true, that using the term "transgendered" would give family and friends a lens to look through that would help them understand and accept your child. Certainly it gives them something to google. ;-)
Also, affirming your 7-year-old's sense that she is a girl is very powerful, brave, and respectful. If your child's sense of herself as a girl persists, you'll have to make decisions with her about things like pre-puberty interventions that increase the chances of her growing up with the kind of body and voice that will allow her to be perceived in the world as the person she knows herself to be. "Transgendered" doesn't strike me as a label in the same way that "ADHD," "dyslexic," "oppositional," "lazy," etc. do--it's not thrown around casually, it's not over-applied in schools, it's not ever a stand-in for "this is a child we find challenging and we want to put the onus on her to accommodate herself to our needs," it's not a judgment or a pre-applied limit on what she can accomplish. In the case of a child like yours, it's an affirmation that she is who she knows herself to be.
No child ever self-identifies as ADHD or learning disabled before an adult applies that label. No kid is ever empowered by saying, "I'm lazy," and the parent saying, "You're right, and I'm going to make sure all your friends and family know it." But a child IS empowered when they say, "My body says I'm female but I KNOW I'm male," and the parent says, "You're right, and I'm going to help you navigate that in the world so you can be strong and healthy in that identity."
It strikes me as a different kind of thing altogether as I think about it.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
tbhager
> How does his dad/(your husband, if...) feel about it?It would take an entire new post to explain so I'll just say that I'm in the process of leaving my husband (not her father) and right now how he feels about it doesn't matter to me, although he is being nice about it.
> It's a label, but it's a label like "girl" or "boy." A girl with a penis isn't a girl, so that could necessitate a label.I know a couple of male-to-female adults (neither is still local or
close with me) and one female to male (lost touch years ago). It's a biggie.
That is what was confusing me, whether or not telling people that she is transgender is the same as telling people that a child has ADHD, if they are both labeling, but I think I understand it better now.
> -=-Finding that helped me to find other parents dealing with the same issue with their children and helped me decide what to do - let her be a girl. So I finally said 'yes' to her -=-I didn't mean that the way it came out, sorry. I've gotten used to telling my parents and siblings that it was 'my' decision, and that I'm 'letting' her, although she knows different and so do I. My family can't grasp the concept of something like this being her choice and not mine. I gave up trying to explain and let them think what they want. At the moment I'm just glad that most of them are accepting it at all.
> Your permission isn't "to let her be a girl." It's for you to
> acknowledge and treat him as he's requested.
> I think treading lightly and not making a total change from oneI hadn't even thought of that yet, I was still stuck on how to explain it to outside family (we have a wedding in less than a week). More questions to ask the transgender groups!
> extreme to another is probably a wise way to go. There are legalities you'll have to deal with. People can't really just choose.
> I would make this part of the deal, if it were my child: In exchange for accepting and aiding and abetting the wardrobe, name and toy deal, for family gatherings (weddings, funerals) I'd request as gender-neutral-as-possible clothes.I've tried that to some extent. We live in an extremely small, narrow-minded town. (In Canada) We found out the hard way when we took the kids out of school to homeschool that differences aren't accepted here. So for safety reasons she knows that wearing pink dresses around town isn't an option and I requested that she dress as a boy here. However when we make our trips into the city where no one knows us she dresses however she'd like to.
She really doesn't like it though. She complains and pouts while putting on the 'boy' clothes and gets really sad. She doesn't want to go for walks anymore.
tbhager
> For some the ADHD label is freeing because it's a pass out of the box labeled normal that everyone kept trying to cram them into but never fit.This describes perfectly what I did to myself. I grew up thinking I wasn't as smart as other people and while I knew something was different and that I couldn't pay attention like everyone wanted me to, they wouldn't admit it to me. They would insist that I should be able to pay attention and tell me that nothing is 'wrong' with me, then turn around and get angry with me for not being like them. As an adult I started searching for somewhere that I 'fit' because I was tired of being told that I was 'normal', just not as smart, when I knew I wasn't the same. I found ADD. Then I started trying to 'fix' myself and got frustrated trying. Nothing worked. It took me a long time but I finally learned to just accept that I'm different, but that it doesn't mean that I'm not as smart as my sister or brother.
Now I have a five year old that is different, and I just let him be himself and I tell him every day how smart and special he is.
> Sandra brings up some good points about her understanding theThe wedding we have coming up is a big one and all of our family will be there (15 of my aunts and uncles, etc..) and she really wants to wear a dress and nail polish and pretty shoes. She's so excited to be able to dance at a wedding as a girl and twirl in a dress. I explained to her that a lot of my family will likely have negative reactions and that they may not all be nice about it. She said, "I know Mommy, I'll be okay." and then continued playing.
> reactions she's likely to run across. Not in a fearful way to avoid them, but in knowing how people may react and making an informed
> decision whether she wants to put up with it or not.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I hadn't even thought of that yet, I was still stuck on how to
explain it to outside family (we have a wedding in less than a week). -
=-
There is a wedding in less than a week.
That's not the say as "we have a wedding," is it?
-=-> I would make this part of the deal, if it were my child: In
exchange for accepting and aiding and abetting the wardrobe, name and
toy deal, for family gatherings (weddings, funerals) I'd request as
gender-neutral-as-possible clothes.
-=-I've tried that to some extent. -=-
Maybe "try" isn't strong enough.
For you to demand the child wear boy things always would be bad.
For the child do demand to wear girl things all the time could be as
bad or worse.
You DO live in a town (no matter how small or large) in a country (at
least it's not one where you're in danger of being stoned or
imprisoned over this). There are other considerations.
-=- She complains and pouts while putting on the 'boy' clothes and
gets really sad. -=-
They don't have to be "boy clothes."
Depending on the formality of the wedding, it could be jeans and a
silky shirt. Khakis and a velvet shirt. A brown or blue pants-and-
vest or pants-and-coat set.
There's also opting out of going to the wedding.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
explain it to outside family (we have a wedding in less than a week). -
=-
There is a wedding in less than a week.
That's not the say as "we have a wedding," is it?
-=-> I would make this part of the deal, if it were my child: In
exchange for accepting and aiding and abetting the wardrobe, name and
toy deal, for family gatherings (weddings, funerals) I'd request as
gender-neutral-as-possible clothes.
-=-I've tried that to some extent. -=-
Maybe "try" isn't strong enough.
For you to demand the child wear boy things always would be bad.
For the child do demand to wear girl things all the time could be as
bad or worse.
You DO live in a town (no matter how small or large) in a country (at
least it's not one where you're in danger of being stoned or
imprisoned over this). There are other considerations.
-=- She complains and pouts while putting on the 'boy' clothes and
gets really sad. -=-
They don't have to be "boy clothes."
Depending on the formality of the wedding, it could be jeans and a
silky shirt. Khakis and a velvet shirt. A brown or blue pants-and-
vest or pants-and-coat set.
There's also opting out of going to the wedding.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The wedding we have coming up is a big one and all of our family
will be there (15 of my aunts and uncles, etc..) and she really wants
to wear a dress and nail polish and pretty shoes. She's so excited to
be able to dance at a wedding as a girl and twirl in a dress.-=-
I hope you didn't say "good idea." I hope you didn't say "no problem."
-=-I explained to her that a lot of my family will likely have
negative reactions and that they may not all be nice about it. She
said, "I know Mommy, I'll be okay." and then continued playing. -=-
If you think one single person would not be nice, then it's a bad
idea, because it's not her wedding. It's not your wedding.
A wedding is a VERY big deal, and not to be risked for something like
this, in my opinion.
Unless the bride and the groom and all their parents (especially the
ones who are paying for it) thought it was a great idea, it would not
be a great idea.
Weddings happen once, and are solemn occasions. If in that large
family your child is a boy, has received gifts as a boy, is
acknowledged as a male part of that family, this is no time for pretty
shoes and twirling.
I think if she can't wear neutral clothes and refrain from twirling,
you should find a polite excuse not to go, send a great gift, and wait
until something you're hosting yourself to dress up and twirl.
This is very much a "time and place" situation, and someone else's
wedding isn't the time or the place for shocking revelations or
behavior that draws attention to anyone besides the bride.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will be there (15 of my aunts and uncles, etc..) and she really wants
to wear a dress and nail polish and pretty shoes. She's so excited to
be able to dance at a wedding as a girl and twirl in a dress.-=-
I hope you didn't say "good idea." I hope you didn't say "no problem."
-=-I explained to her that a lot of my family will likely have
negative reactions and that they may not all be nice about it. She
said, "I know Mommy, I'll be okay." and then continued playing. -=-
If you think one single person would not be nice, then it's a bad
idea, because it's not her wedding. It's not your wedding.
A wedding is a VERY big deal, and not to be risked for something like
this, in my opinion.
Unless the bride and the groom and all their parents (especially the
ones who are paying for it) thought it was a great idea, it would not
be a great idea.
Weddings happen once, and are solemn occasions. If in that large
family your child is a boy, has received gifts as a boy, is
acknowledged as a male part of that family, this is no time for pretty
shoes and twirling.
I think if she can't wear neutral clothes and refrain from twirling,
you should find a polite excuse not to go, send a great gift, and wait
until something you're hosting yourself to dress up and twirl.
This is very much a "time and place" situation, and someone else's
wedding isn't the time or the place for shocking revelations or
behavior that draws attention to anyone besides the bride.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tbhager
> This is very much a "time and place" situation, and someone else'sYikes, I never even thought of that. Thank you so much! All of the arguments I've been given from family were variations on what other people might do or say to her out of intolerance. Not once did someone mention this to me.
> wedding isn't the time or the place for shocking revelations or
> behavior that draws attention to anyone besides the bride.
I guess there was a reason I felt like I needed to post about this on here today. I will explain this to her and everything will be okay. If she decides that going as a boy would be worse than not going at all, I'll have to offer her something else special that we could do in place of the wedding.
Brianne
Marina DeLuca-Howard
<<My oldest is 7 and he wants to be a girl. REALLY wants to be a girl! From
as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with girl toys (which
I've never had a problem with, but other family members did). He also
insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let him. I didn't think it was a
big deal. He would wear dresses all day and sleep in them all night.>>
Some of this is cultural. Girls aren't born in dresses or high heels. In
fact in some cultures women do things we consider masculine--like building
huts. On the other hand men do things we consider feminine, like wearing
jewels or make-up. Gender, unlike biological sex isn't hard wired. My
eldest son wore tutus one day and played guns the next. He felt quite free
to explore and learn.
Sometimes he pretended to be me and breastfed stuffed toys. Other times he
went off to work like his dad. He once told a strange woman who was
apologizing for calling him a girl that colours don't have sex and pointed
out that his mom was a girl. He didn't realize being called a girl was
somehow insulting, until someone told him.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with girl toys (which
I've never had a problem with, but other family members did). He also
insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let him. I didn't think it was a
big deal. He would wear dresses all day and sleep in them all night.>>
Some of this is cultural. Girls aren't born in dresses or high heels. In
fact in some cultures women do things we consider masculine--like building
huts. On the other hand men do things we consider feminine, like wearing
jewels or make-up. Gender, unlike biological sex isn't hard wired. My
eldest son wore tutus one day and played guns the next. He felt quite free
to explore and learn.
Sometimes he pretended to be me and breastfed stuffed toys. Other times he
went off to work like his dad. He once told a strange woman who was
apologizing for calling him a girl that colours don't have sex and pointed
out that his mom was a girl. He didn't realize being called a girl was
somehow insulting, until someone told him.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Marina, I had the same fun experience with Karl of being gender
neutral about colors and toys and activities. He's six now so he has
heard all kinds of ideas recently (that bit of "until someone told
him") plus he's just noticing things such as kisses are sometimes very
private in movies (or not private enough for his liking). Funny as I
am not telling him any of this stuff but he picks up the cues from
disparate sources. And it's interesting what he's paying attention to
now. It's so freaking fascinating.
~Katherine
neutral about colors and toys and activities. He's six now so he has
heard all kinds of ideas recently (that bit of "until someone told
him") plus he's just noticing things such as kisses are sometimes very
private in movies (or not private enough for his liking). Funny as I
am not telling him any of this stuff but he picks up the cues from
disparate sources. And it's interesting what he's paying attention to
now. It's so freaking fascinating.
~Katherine
On 6/27/10, Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:
> <<My oldest is 7 and he wants to be a girl. REALLY wants to be a girl! From
> as little as I can remember he only wanted to play with girl toys (which
> I've never had a problem with, but other family members did). He also
> insisted on dressing up as girl. I always let him. I didn't think it was a
> big deal. He would wear dresses all day and sleep in them all night.>>
>
> Some of this is cultural. Girls aren't born in dresses or high heels. In
> fact in some cultures women do things we consider masculine--like building
> huts. On the other hand men do things we consider feminine, like wearing
> jewels or make-up. Gender, unlike biological sex isn't hard wired. My
> eldest son wore tutus one day and played guns the next. He felt quite free
> to explore and learn.
>
> Sometimes he pretended to be me and breastfed stuffed toys. Other times he
> went off to work like his dad. He once told a strange woman who was
> apologizing for calling him a girl that colours don't have sex and pointed
> out that his mom was a girl. He didn't realize being called a girl was
> somehow insulting, until someone told him.
>
> Marina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Marina DeLuca-Howard
<<Marina, I had the same fun experience with Karl of being gender
neutral about colors and toys and activities. He's six now so he has
heard all kinds of ideas recently (that bit of "until someone told
him") plus he's just noticing things such as kisses are sometimes very
private in movies (or not private enough for his liking). Funny as I
am not telling him any of this stuff but he picks up the cues from
disparate sources. And it's interesting what he's paying attention to
now. It's so freaking fascinating.>
Cool. I found it easy to be honest about what I thought and supported the
boys choices. They all seemed fond of red, purple and green which are
gender neutral. Martin(ten) has had long hair for ages. Sometimes he
brushes his hair until it looks very beautiful. One girl calls it princess
hair. Then he's off to put on camouflage pants and play war.
It's funny Marty also wore pink ballet slippers for a while at three and
four. He took a class with all girls. He wanted pink because they wore
pink. The salesman in the store was quite upset with me for allowing it.
Marty gave up ballet at five because there were no other boys in his class
and he decided at five he only wanted mixed activities, with both boys and
girls. Lately at nine or so he started playing with only boys. He makes
exceptions with female relatives(his relatives and sisters of his male
friends).
Marina
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
neutral about colors and toys and activities. He's six now so he has
heard all kinds of ideas recently (that bit of "until someone told
him") plus he's just noticing things such as kisses are sometimes very
private in movies (or not private enough for his liking). Funny as I
am not telling him any of this stuff but he picks up the cues from
disparate sources. And it's interesting what he's paying attention to
now. It's so freaking fascinating.>
Cool. I found it easy to be honest about what I thought and supported the
boys choices. They all seemed fond of red, purple and green which are
gender neutral. Martin(ten) has had long hair for ages. Sometimes he
brushes his hair until it looks very beautiful. One girl calls it princess
hair. Then he's off to put on camouflage pants and play war.
It's funny Marty also wore pink ballet slippers for a while at three and
four. He took a class with all girls. He wanted pink because they wore
pink. The salesman in the store was quite upset with me for allowing it.
Marty gave up ballet at five because there were no other boys in his class
and he decided at five he only wanted mixed activities, with both boys and
girls. Lately at nine or so he started playing with only boys. He makes
exceptions with female relatives(his relatives and sisters of his male
friends).
Marina
>--
>
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]