Susan Fuerst

Learning All the TimeThank you for all your replies about this. I will pick some quotes to respond to specifically. On the whole, it seems probable that the biggest source of my stress over it comes from that tape in my head about no child going off to school without a diaper (meaning kindergarten- aged, in my mind). Switching that to no child going off to college in diapers may change a lot in my perspective. however, there are other factors, practical matters, which also seem to play into it for me.

Schyluer wrote (and some others had similar sentiments): "Why would diaper wearing increase the risk of UTI's? Really? Do the incontinent elderly have a greater risk of UTI's? Why are you worried about it?" I have heard the feces getting into the urinary tract and/ or vagina could cause some sort of infections, maybe not UTIs? It's not so much the urine, as the diapers pull that away from the skin, though she will sometime leak out urine onto clothing and furniture; which isn't sanitary for her or the household.
regarding her elimination, she doesn't come tell me. This seems more due to the inconvenience of interrupting her life than anything else. feces gets into her vaginal area when she continues to play with that diaper on.

Schulyer, you guessed I might be embarrassed about it with other adults. Sure, fairly rarely, I am. If that were a primary issue, it would have occurred long before now. I would possibly be embarrassed to have her have a dirty or leaky diaper should she be visiting a playmate, potentially stinking up their living areas of their homes horribly. Overall, I am rather immune to what other parents think of my way of living.


Schulyer again: "If your daughter prefers diapers at 5, I imagine that at 15 she will feel more intact because you respected that, even while she isn't any longer wearing diapers."
Absolutely, you are right. That's the tape I need to put into my head; thank you.

Robin B wrote about me already battling over it. I had tried establishing time without a diaper " until lunch" (which was often no more than an hour bc I let her keep it on for half the morning before taking it off)just a few days before I wrote. I fortunately noticed quickly that I had set it up as a battle, rather than small steps toward a goal, and I knew that would not benefit anyone. I also quickly realized she did not have or own that goal in any way shape or form; that I was imposing it on her. I wanted to choose otherwise before it developed further, but realized my frustration and needed to direct it away from her.

Also thanks Robin for the parenting advice :"Don't harsh your kid's mellow" <g>

Sandra wrote: "If you tell her what she needs, how will she learn what she needs?" Yes, you are right. Your whole post there was helpful for me to examine my self and where I am at with it all. Writng it out has helped me see what's happening in my thoughts that can be changed.

To those who suggested cloth training pants or pull ups, she refuses those, too. She only wants diapers, with tabs, lying down to be changed. She is unable to diaper herself; she cannot do the tabs, ands he doesn't really want to.

I will try to go back and read the rock climbing thread, I did not read it before.

Let me outline some practical problems:
1) She is often too long for changing tables in public bathrooms or at the museum, etc when we are out.

2) I am not always available to watch to change her diaper and check it. She doesn't let people know when she needs a change, so I do get concerned for her to have feces on her. If you can show me it wouldn't cause infection, ok, though I will need to study up on that a bit; however, I see what it does to her skin at times; and it can get sore.

3)While I know that I can get my mindset cleared up, I cannot force anyone else to. I have other older children and spend quite a bit of time taxiing them to their activities and events. her older sibs do not always want to change her diaper. My husband is also frustrated with the situation; and yes it's because he thinks she needs to get past it, and yes, he was coerced and forced, and ,no, he doesn't often sit back and examine how this has been damaging to him. He does not invest the time and energy to be mindful and conscious with parenting, and this is one area he would change. he will stay out of it for the most part, but she will hear messages from him about it perhaps on a weekend or sometime when I am not around and he is the parent responsible for her.





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Sandra Dodd

-=- I have heard the feces getting into the urinary tract and/ or
vagina could cause some sort of infections-=-

Then change her diaper a lot. Even if she stops using a diaper, if
she's not yet able to know when she needs to go and then do it, she's
in the same danger of infection, but your house will have poop trails
if you put her in regular pants.

-=regarding her elimination, she doesn't come tell me.-=-

Maybe just on your own (not for the list) consider why she doesn't
tell you. Does she get yammered at or shamed? Does she not want to
stop playing? Maybe get her to try the toilet before she starts a
project, to avoid her going while she's working/drawing/watching/
playing.

-=-. She only wants diapers, with tabs, lying down to be changed-=-

I don't think telling her it needs to be done standing up if there's
not a clean, private, safe place to lie down is TOTALLY reasonable and
sensible.

My kids were getting diapered standing up when they were two, when we
were on car trips and the choices were the hot outside of the car or
the stickery ground. New Mexico is unlikely to have toilets for a
hundred miles or more, and even if they do, there's no diapering place
and not always any shade.

Sandra

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:29 PM, Susan Fuerst wrote:

> she will sometime leak out urine onto clothing and furniture; which
> isn't sanitary for her or the household.

Actually urine is sanitary.

Of course if she has germs from poop on her butt leaking pee would
carry that with it. And of course it smells.

But as far as germs in pee, that's not another worry you need add.

You can put some pads down on furniture until you can get the leaking
under control. They have disposable sheets for dogs to use. Those
might work.

Joyce

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Jenny Cyphers

***To those who suggested cloth training pants or pull ups, she refuses those, too. She only wants diapers, with tabs, lying down to be changed. She is unable to diaper herself; she cannot do the tabs, ands he doesn't really want to.***

There are pull-ups with tabs that are super easy for changing while standing up, that look more like underwear. Slim design and made so that when it gets wet, the design image changes color or disappears so that you know she's wet herself, or so that she knows that she's wet herself. My youngest wore pull-ups and such for a long time too and could easily change this style herself while standing up. If it was dirty, she could undo the tabs and take it off. To put another one back on, she could do it like underwear, or if she was wearing pants, she could open it and put it on with the side tabs. We also kept a LOT of wipes around. That made a big difference.

If you are concerned with her wearing poopy diapers for too long and the possibility of infection seems likely, why not bathe her every evening before bedtime. Lots of parents do that with infants to give their bums a break from diapers and keep it clean. You could make it a routine, of taking clothes off, sitting on potty while running tub water, hopping in tub and running around without a diaper for a bit before dressing all up in night time clothes and heading off to bed. If it were me, and this was my child, this is what I'd do. I know pull-ups are expensive, so I'd do the diapers at night, do the whole special lying down and getting a diaper on. I'd help her the moment she got up from bed in the morning, to sit on the toilet to "try" and then put that diaper back on if it was still dry and if not, I'd go straight to the "day time" pull-ups and use those for the rest of the day.

She's old enough to tell her, "we're going to try something new for a while to see how it works" and then take her to the store to pick out the special day time pull-ups, or surprise her with them. Make it fun and interesting, don't make a fuss about it, keep it light and pleasant. If she hates the whole thing, drop it, but help her try something new that could be pleasant for everyone, including her.

***While I know that I can get my mindset cleared up, I cannot force anyone else to. I have other older children and spend quite a bit of time taxiing them to their activities and events. her older sibs do not always want to change her diaper. My husband is also frustrated with the situation; and yes it's because he thinks she needs to get past it, and yes, he was coerced and forced, and ,no, he doesn't often sit back and examine how this has been damaging to him.***

Then be the one who does it. Imagine that your husband is an old guy who thinks diapering is a woman's job, and "yes" there are still men out there that feel that way! Do the diapering, don't expect anyone else to do it, since you are the one who sees the problem and are trying to find a solution. The times when you are not there to help with the diapering, enlist one of the older kids that is the most patient and considerate to help their younger sibling to use the toilet at regular intervals maybe.

I can't even begin to tell you how much an older sibling can help a younger sibling do something like that. There have been many things that Margaux won't do for herself as long as mom and dad are here, but if we aren't and her sister is the only other person here, she manages just fine to do those things because of the encouragement of her older sister. That's part of being a team member in the family. Some team members such as older siblings can be great cheering squads, while other team members such as parents are great at DOing.





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Pam Sorooshian

On 6/24/2010 2:29 PM, Susan Fuerst wrote:
> she doesn't come tell me. This seems more due to the inconvenience of
> interrupting her life than anything else. feces gets into her vaginal
> area when she continues to play with that diaper on.

Probably because you find it disgusting and she can sense that. Kids
think that if they put something off it might never have to happen.
Sometimes true.

>I would possibly be embarrassed to have her have a dirty or leaky
diaper should she be visiting a playmate, potentially stinking up their
living areas of their homes horribly.<

I understand she doesn't want them - but pull-ups seem like a good
possible compromise, so maybe you can talk with her about it in terms of
practicalities. Regular diapers are probably not fitting her well and
pull-ups are made for bigger kids so they won't leak. You don't have to
let her leak urine and/or feces around the house and car and other
people's houses.

That reminds me of a kid who was friends with my kids. He wet his pants
all the time, often when sitting on our furniture - often when sitting
on my kids beds. It was very very annoying. And, even when he wasn't
wet, he smelled bad and the odor rubbed off. A few times I mentioned to
his mom, "He's wet." She said that he was perfectly capable of using the
bathroom and that if he chose not to do so then he was the one who had
to be wet and uncomfortable. We stopped hanging out with them.

So - I do think that you shouldn't impose this on others who haven't
agreed. If she's invited for playdates at other people's houses, I
wouldn't do it under these circumstances. Roya used to take a backpack
everywhere, with various things in it - but at the bottom was a box of
wipes and an extra pull-up. She would go to the bathroom, take off her
dirty pull-up, clean herself up with the wipes. I'd tell the mom she'd
be doing this, but Roya didn't have to ever "confess" to other kids, if
she didn't want to do so. Roya wore them to overnighters (like at
Grandma's house) even when she was quite a bit older - just for the
courtesy of not wetting the bed at night at someone else's house.

-pam

aldq75

>>>>There are pull-ups with tabs that are super easy for changing while standing up, that look more like underwear. Slim design and made so that when it gets wet, the design image changes color or disappears so that you know she's wet herself, or so that she knows that she's wet herself.<<<<

The color change ones irritated my girls' bottoms, so we stop using them. and switched to CVS store brand pullups. They are a lot less than the namebrand ones. They don't have the actual tabs, but can be opened on the sides and re-stuck.

Sandra Dodd

-=- A few times I mentioned to
his mom, "He's wet." She said that he was perfectly capable of using the
bathroom and that if he chose not to do so then he was the one who had
to be wet and uncomfortable. We stopped hanging out with them.-=-

It's hard to believe there are parents that clueless and awful. SHE
might as well have be pissing on your furniture if she was part of
knowing and allowing it to happen.

Sandra




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k

This:

>>>And, even when he wasn't wet, he smelled bad and the odor rubbed off.<<<

is exactly like the boy everybody kept away from when I was a kid at
school. He smelled like that all the time, even in the morning, and I
felt like his parents/grandparents/whoever if they were around could
have done something about it.

~Katherine



On 6/24/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=- A few times I mentioned to
> his mom, "He's wet." She said that he was perfectly capable of using the
> bathroom and that if he chose not to do so then he was the one who had
> to be wet and uncomfortable. We stopped hanging out with them.-=-
>
> It's hard to believe there are parents that clueless and awful. SHE
> might as well have be pissing on your furniture if she was part of
> knowing and allowing it to happen.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

k

I have a couple questions. Is this your youngest child? Next to
youngest child? Why can't she mostly hang out with you (if she wants
to)?

~Katherine

m_kher

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
" I don't think telling her it needs to be done standing up if there's
not a clean, private, safe place to lie down is TOTALLY reasonable
and sensible."

Is there an extra "don't" in that sentence?

"I think telling her it needs to be done standing up if there's
not a clean, private, safe place to lie down is TOTALLY reasonable
and sensible."

Manisha

Sandra Dodd

-=-" I don't think telling her it needs to be done standing up if
there's
not a clean, private, safe place to lie down is TOTALLY reasonable
and sensible."

Is there an extra "don't" in that sentence?

YES, there was. I'm sorry. I started in one direction, and ended in
another.

Manisha rephrased it as I meant to say it:

"I think telling her it needs to be done standing up if there's
not a clean, private, safe place to lie down is TOTALLY reasonable
and sensible."

It's cool to let kids have choices, but it's no more fair/good/
sensible for a child to always have the last word than it is for a
mother to live by "because I said so" or "because I'm the mom."

"You have to change my diaper lying down because I said so" or "You
have to change my diaper with me lying down because I'm the kid" isn't
necessarily good. For a twelve month old, yes (not that a one year
old would say that). For a five year old, if she's strong and
capable of standing and squatting, not so good.

Sandra






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k

Ok, and the reason I asked the questions below is for yet another
reason besides the thought that a 5 year old very likely wants a lot
more time with mom. It seems to me that having a LOT of people in
charge of diapering a child who is no longer exactly a toddler could
begin to be bothering the child.

Karl has a pretty high need for privacy. Most kids have some need for
privacy when pottying/diapering etc. If the eventual idea is that a
child go in the potty anyway, obviously just saying "go" isn't
necessarily going to work. Sometimes if the need for privacy isn't
really acknowledged then the child may not want to put too fine a
point on it either even if they want more privacy. Maybe it's not been
something she thinks will be acceptable? Especially if the actions of
the parent don't honor privacy as much as making a point of
controlling undesirable pottying or diapering.

It's a sensitive kind of thing.

And the way to provide more privacy for a child to feel comfortable
with pottying on one's own is very UNlikely to be having her siblings
still diapering her, not only well after babyhood but moving out of
toddlerhood too.

I would consider doing all the diapering for a while and providing
towels/pads/whatnot in addition to diapers and wipes for the child
when you're out and about. If at all possible, were it me, I'd take
the child with.

~Katherine




On 6/24/10, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> I have a couple questions. Is this your youngest child? Next to
> youngest child? Why can't she mostly hang out with you (if she wants
> to)?
>
> ~Katherine
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-And the way to provide more privacy for a child to feel comfortable
with pottying on one's own is very UNlikely to be having her siblings
still diapering her, not only well after babyhood but moving out of
toddlerhood too.-=-

OH. I missed that, if siblings are being asked or required to change
her diaper. That's not a good thing.

Another thought I had today was that when I was little I hadn't seen
adults go to the bathroom. I had been helped by adults but somewhere
in there I got the idea that the toilet seat was for little kids, and
that adults lifted that up and went on the porcelain rim. So one day
when I went by myself I thought I'd do it like an adult, I had the lid
up, balancing myself on the rim. My mom came and kind of shamed me,
like "What are you DOING!?" I explained and then she said no,
grownups sit on the seat, and she was nicer.

It's good for little kids to see moms and dads use the toilet, I think.

Sandra



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Jenny Cyphers

-=-And the way to provide more privacy for a child to feel comfortable
with pottying on one's own is very UNlikely to be having her siblings
still diapering her, not only well after babyhood but moving out of
toddlerhood too.-=-

***OH. I missed that, if siblings are being asked or required to change
her diaper. That's not a good thing.***

I had suggested asking one of the more compassionate older siblings to help in the event of the mom not being there. The way it sounded to me, was that the dad wasn't being very patient or kind about the diapering and sometimes siblings are more forgiving of these kinds of things. It didn't sound like any of the other members of the family are particularly interested in helping this kiddo, so mom should be the one doing it. Five yr olds are still so little!

I totally agree with Katherine here, until things change, the mom should be taking the child with her if it's possible. It's so hard to be patient with diapering that extends beyond what most people consider normal! Margaux still, at 8, won't wipe herself and she used pull-ups pretty consistently until she was a bit over 5. The change happened almost overnight to real underwear. Even after, she still had accidents. All in all, what is normal IS this, not like Chamille who stopped using any diapers or having accidents at just turned 2.

Kids are all so different, and just like learning everything else in the whole wide world, they'll learn things at different times and rates!


________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 3:00:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 4149


-=-And the way to provide more privacy for a child to feel comfortable
with pottying on one's own is very UNlikely to be having her siblings
still diapering her, not only well after babyhood but moving out of
toddlerhood too.-=-

OH. I missed that, if siblings are being asked or required to change
her diaper. That's not a good thing.

Another thought I had today was that when I was little I hadn't seen
adults go to the bathroom. I had been helped by adults but somewhere
in there I got the idea that the toilet seat was for little kids, and
that adults lifted that up and went on the porcelain rim. So one day
when I went by myself I thought I'd do it like an adult, I had the lid
up, balancing myself on the rim. My mom came and kind of shamed me,
like "What are you DOING!?" I explained and then she said no,
grownups sit on the seat, and she was nicer.

It's good for little kids to see moms and dads use the toilet, I think.

Sandra

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