[AlwaysLearning] Supporting learning WAS Re: Boy Scouts, following intstructions, taking direction
Vidyut Kale
I thought I'd branch off, because I seem to be going in a different
direction with this.
I don't, understand what you mean by:
Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
child to experience fear or even freeze. Sure, if it can be avoided,
it will be avoided, but if it happens, I don't see how it is wrong. I
am interested in getting an insight into how it can be avoided. How
could the instructors 'get' that this child meant what she said when
she was scared and she was likely to escalate on the face and to leave
her alone. If there are observations or cues that could alert a 'back
off' that currently doesn't exist or what a correct response could be.
I am wondering how much you think the embarrassment was a part of her
trauma. It is also something we noticed in this camp. Fear of failure
- not so much as performance, but self-image. Perhaps school children
are less sensitive about their dignity in needing help or coming to
attention as someone who needs help or is unable to carry through
something they started, because they are used to adults 'knowing
better'? Because it occurs to me that often the kind of instructions
to beginner climbers may seem to be too much like teaching/telling..
safety protocols, assistance in the form of very specific actions
"STAND on your right leg", "don't tense your body" etc. It could make
an unschooling child go "don't tell me what to do" and become
embarrassing as a part of a group?
I am asking this not just as an outdoor instructor, but also as an
unschooling parent. It seems something vital to be in touch with and a
gap in my awareness and consideration of situations.
Vidyut
direction with this.
I don't, understand what you mean by:
Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
child to experience fear or even freeze. Sure, if it can be avoided,
it will be avoided, but if it happens, I don't see how it is wrong. I
am interested in getting an insight into how it can be avoided. How
could the instructors 'get' that this child meant what she said when
she was scared and she was likely to escalate on the face and to leave
her alone. If there are observations or cues that could alert a 'back
off' that currently doesn't exist or what a correct response could be.
I am wondering how much you think the embarrassment was a part of her
trauma. It is also something we noticed in this camp. Fear of failure
- not so much as performance, but self-image. Perhaps school children
are less sensitive about their dignity in needing help or coming to
attention as someone who needs help or is unable to carry through
something they started, because they are used to adults 'knowing
better'? Because it occurs to me that often the kind of instructions
to beginner climbers may seem to be too much like teaching/telling..
safety protocols, assistance in the form of very specific actions
"STAND on your right leg", "don't tense your body" etc. It could make
an unschooling child go "don't tell me what to do" and become
embarrassing as a part of a group?
I am asking this not just as an outdoor instructor, but also as an
unschooling parent. It seems something vital to be in touch with and a
gap in my awareness and consideration of situations.
Vidyut
On 6/19/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> On 6/18/2010 10:24 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
>> I was just pointing out that some of our choices
>> can decrease engagement and make involvement more difficult.
>
> "Our?"
>
> Some parents, especially of younger children, give the kids the idea
> that there IS something to be afraid of and that they should not try the
> activity. I've seen that, once in a while, too. I have been putting on
> an activity that is messy - and the kid was just fine until the parent
> said, "Oh, Johnny hates to be messy, let me clean you up a little,
> Johnny." Then the kid becomes aware of being messy and loses that "flow"
> of the activity. I understand this.
>
> But - Vidyut - you attributed it to the children not having had enough
> exposure to other adults "helping them learn." This is so not true of
> unschooled kids, in general. It is my experience, and I have a lot of
> it, that it is FAR more common that the adults-in-charge are full of
> themselves and sure they know better than the children (and their
> parents) that the child should be pressured into doing the activity. I
> know you wouldn't use the word "pressured" but that is what it is -
> probably more for some kids than others, but how would you know which
> kids would feel it that way?
>
> My daughter, Roya, is a brave and super high energy person and she was
> like that as a child, too. She is THE most enthusiastic person I've
> every known when it comes to trying out new experiences.
>
> She got the chance to go rock climbing (with all the ropes, etc.) and
> she thought it sounded wonderful. She wanted to do it. When she got
> there, faced with the reality of it, she was too scared and didn't want
> to do it. The instructors were super nice and encouraging and
> supportive. They had lots and lots of experience. They had her try some
> things on the ground, and then just a foot off the ground. They sweetly
> cajoled her into giving it a try and she got part way up and she
> completely and totally fell apart. She was crying and embarrassed and
> too scared to do anything. Frozen.
>
> When they got her down, they said things about how she should be proud
> that she was brave enough to try. She didn't feel that way at ALL. She
> felt stupid that she'd done it even though she knew it wasn't a good
> idea for her. She'd have been a whole lot happier if they would have
> trusted her to decide for herself. She felt doubly bad about herself for
> letting someone else talk her into it.
>
> So why did Roya do it? She thinks of herself as brave and she wanted to
> act bravely. She didn't want to let down the people who wanted her to do
> it. She got embarrassed by the attention. She believed them when they
> said they were sure she could do it. I don't know. And the leaders
> convinced her she could do it. They were wrong to do that - they
> presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
> her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong.
>
> I really do know that running organized activities for groups of
> unschooled kids is different than for schooled or homeschooled kids. I
> had a girl scout troop of mostly unschooled girls of all ages, for a few
> years. Instead of doing group activities, we set up stations that the
> girls could go to and spend as much or as little time with as they
> wanted. And we always met at a place where they could play freely, too.
> As they got older, they came up with the activities they wanted to do,
> themselves, instead of showing up to pre-planned activities.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/19/2010 1:25 AM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
supported in trusting her own feelings that this activity was not a good
idea for her at that time.
It didn't occur to them because they were so sure that doing it was what
would be good for her.
when it was wrong to try to persuade a child to participate? It shows
such total lack of trust in the child's own understanding of
him/herself. My daughter knew herself very very well, but the
instructors were able to undermine her trust in herself by very clearly
not trusting her. I was at the same event, by the way, but not right
there. They could have asked me if I thought they should try to get her
to do it. But they probably thought like you do, that the parents are
too inclined to withdraw their child from something scary, because of
their own fears.
doing something that leads to them hanging on the side of a mountain,
frozen with fear, especially when you've pushed them to ignore their own
judgment about what they are comfortable doing.
Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life.
The exact opposite of what these kinds of activities are supposed to be
developing in the kids - lack of trust in themselves (and lack of trust
in parents to know their kids better than a complete stranger no matter
how many years of experience they may have had).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't, understand what you mean by:She didn't need support for DOING the activity. She needed to be
>
> Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
> presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
> her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
supported in trusting her own feelings that this activity was not a good
idea for her at that time.
It didn't occur to them because they were so sure that doing it was what
would be good for her.
>In nearly two decades of this kind of work you have never seen a time
> Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
> wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
when it was wrong to try to persuade a child to participate? It shows
such total lack of trust in the child's own understanding of
him/herself. My daughter knew herself very very well, but the
instructors were able to undermine her trust in herself by very clearly
not trusting her. I was at the same event, by the way, but not right
there. They could have asked me if I thought they should try to get her
to do it. But they probably thought like you do, that the parents are
too inclined to withdraw their child from something scary, because of
their own fears.
>Then stay away from my kids, okay? I don't want you talking them into
> Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
> child to experience fear or even freeze.
doing something that leads to them hanging on the side of a mountain,
frozen with fear, especially when you've pushed them to ignore their own
judgment about what they are comfortable doing.
Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life.
The exact opposite of what these kinds of activities are supposed to be
developing in the kids - lack of trust in themselves (and lack of trust
in parents to know their kids better than a complete stranger no matter
how many years of experience they may have had).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I have worked hard to respect both Simon's and Linnaea's boundaries. Both of them have stated very clearly when they didn't want to do something. We did a rope course last October and Linnaea quit at the first set of ladders and ropes. David absolutely respected her decision not to. She said later that as soon as she walked away from it she wished that she had a pushed herself a little further. Simon and I went on and did the first two sets of the the 5 total sets and he was done. But Linnaea thought that course through of the winter and decided come this spring that she wanted to go again. In her own time and with absolute knowledge that we respected her willingness to do or not do the course, she did all of the course. She took the harder paths around, the ones that had optional easier ways to go. Simon and David went together this time along with a friend of Simon's and they stopped one set before the end. But they had fun on their own terms with
the experience. Nobody second guessed their commitment to the activity, nobody questioned their reasons for stopping.
When Linnaea and I finished the course she talked about wishing she'd done it the first time and I suggested that having the winter to reapproach it made it a much more full on and exciting experience. That if she'd put aside her reluctance the first time, if she'd not listened to her gut feeling she might not have enjoyed it as much anyhow. And, again, it helped her to know that choices are hers to make. That David and I will absolutely respect her decisions.
I have experienced people working to coerce Simon or Linnaea into trying something they weren't comfortable with trying. I have, on a very rare occasion, been that person. Simon will slump down and go very quiet and will still refuse to do the thing. Linnaea will become very vocal about not wanting to do it. Trusting them, respecting their decisions about what they want to do has given them the freedom to try or not try something of their own choosing. Being willing to take the hit for being an overprotective parent in those moments when whoever is pushing is really invested in getting them to do what they want them to do.
Pam wrote: Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That's also applicable to a boy's life. And it is a really important understanding to have when unschooling. Trusting your children's interests or lack of interests to be valuable and true. Not undermining what they think of themselves or what they believe themselves capable of by coming in and pushing them beyond what they want to do or limiting them within what you think is best for them.
That doesn't mean I don't lay out why I think something might be within their interests to do, particularly if I see it as something that will impact other people in their lives (which might be as brief as not going might hurt so and sos feelings) or if it's something that might not come up again, but it does mean that at the end of the day, at the end of the discussion it is about them and not about me.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
I don't, understand what you mean by:
Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
child to experience fear or even freeze. Sure, if it can be avoided,
it will be avoided, but if it happens, I don't see how it is wrong. I
am interested in getting an insight into how it can be avoided. How
could the instructors 'get' that this child meant what she said when
she was scared and she was likely to escalate on the face and to leave
her alone. If there are observations or cues that could alert a 'back
off' that currently doesn't exist or what a correct response could be.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the experience. Nobody second guessed their commitment to the activity, nobody questioned their reasons for stopping.
When Linnaea and I finished the course she talked about wishing she'd done it the first time and I suggested that having the winter to reapproach it made it a much more full on and exciting experience. That if she'd put aside her reluctance the first time, if she'd not listened to her gut feeling she might not have enjoyed it as much anyhow. And, again, it helped her to know that choices are hers to make. That David and I will absolutely respect her decisions.
I have experienced people working to coerce Simon or Linnaea into trying something they weren't comfortable with trying. I have, on a very rare occasion, been that person. Simon will slump down and go very quiet and will still refuse to do the thing. Linnaea will become very vocal about not wanting to do it. Trusting them, respecting their decisions about what they want to do has given them the freedom to try or not try something of their own choosing. Being willing to take the hit for being an overprotective parent in those moments when whoever is pushing is really invested in getting them to do what they want them to do.
Pam wrote: Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That's also applicable to a boy's life. And it is a really important understanding to have when unschooling. Trusting your children's interests or lack of interests to be valuable and true. Not undermining what they think of themselves or what they believe themselves capable of by coming in and pushing them beyond what they want to do or limiting them within what you think is best for them.
That doesn't mean I don't lay out why I think something might be within their interests to do, particularly if I see it as something that will impact other people in their lives (which might be as brief as not going might hurt so and sos feelings) or if it's something that might not come up again, but it does mean that at the end of the day, at the end of the discussion it is about them and not about me.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
I don't, understand what you mean by:
Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
child to experience fear or even freeze. Sure, if it can be avoided,
it will be avoided, but if it happens, I don't see how it is wrong. I
am interested in getting an insight into how it can be avoided. How
could the instructors 'get' that this child meant what she said when
she was scared and she was likely to escalate on the face and to leave
her alone. If there are observations or cues that could alert a 'back
off' that currently doesn't exist or what a correct response could be.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2010, at 4:25 AM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
This totally goes against common wisdom. I think part of the problem
is that when kids are pushed and they succeed at something they didn't
think they wanted or could do, they can be even more jazzed than the
kids who jumped right in. That seems like a good thing. For the kids
who end up jazzed, for the most part, it probably is. But the policy
of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
often invisible to the ones who are pushing. (And when it fails, it
wasn't the pushing that failed but because the child is flawed, eg,
too timid, too lacking in self confidence, too stubborn.)
I suspect instructors see their goal as accomplishing the activity
rather than supporting the child. If a child didn't want to do any of
the activities in a program, wouldn't it feel like a failure at the
end? And it's likely if the parents have put their child in a program
that's so counter to their child's nature it's *because* the parents
want the child pushed.
But from an unschooling perspective, its more important that the child
trust the parent will listen and be their advocate than that the child
succeed at this one task that's right now before him. The conventional
wisdom is that kids will remain timid if they don't experience success
beyond their comfort zone. But what's that theory based on? Where's
the control group of kids whose pace at exploring their boundaries is
supported? (Well, it's unschoolers but we're so outside the norm that
we don't get included in the data people use to base their conclusions
on. ;-) Where's the follow up on the psychological effect on kids who
were pushed but didn't succeed? Or succeeded but end up feeling
uncomfortable that they allowed themselves to be pushed? Or get the
idea that their own sense of self can't be trusted and they need to
rely on others to push them?
Unfortunately it's the rousing successes from pushing that stick in
people's minds. It's the musicians with great talent that thank their
parents for pushing them to practice and continue that stick. We don't
see the far more common stories of people who hated being pushed, who
acquired a distaste for what they were pushed into (and in some cases
a distaste for the parents who cared more about their agenda for the
child than about the child.)
More and more I'm seeing programs where the instructors insist that
children be there because they want to be. It's probably because it's
best for the instructors and the other kids in the class. But it's a
side benefit for reluctant kids whose parents might have pushed them
to do something the kids didn't want to.
What parents can do instead of pushing is respecting the child's
feelings. And in some cases dropping it until the child is older and
then offering again. And in some cases keep the door open to the
opportunity so it's available for when the child decides they're
ready. And in some cases ask them to give it a try and they can drop
it if they don't like it. (Sometimes their image of what something is
like is far off of what it is just from lack of experience. Come up
with a couple of ways to get over a hump (like staying with them). But
*do* respect their discomfort. What they can get from the activity is
no where near as important as them trusting you're their advocate
against pressure to move outside their comfort zone.)
What's better depends on the circumstance. It depends on the child.
And in many many cases: Ask! Ask after the fact how the child would
like the parent to handle situations like that. And then do it. Be
trustworthy. Check in every once in a while to see if what the child
asked for is working and if they'd like to try another tactic. (If a
child doesn't know, be okay with that. Some don't. But you've planted
a seed and you can ask again next time after they've had time to turn
over possibilities.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> HowBy assuming a child means what she says.
> could the instructors 'get' that this child meant what she said when
> she was scared and she was likely to escalate on the face and to leave
> her alone.
This totally goes against common wisdom. I think part of the problem
is that when kids are pushed and they succeed at something they didn't
think they wanted or could do, they can be even more jazzed than the
kids who jumped right in. That seems like a good thing. For the kids
who end up jazzed, for the most part, it probably is. But the policy
of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
often invisible to the ones who are pushing. (And when it fails, it
wasn't the pushing that failed but because the child is flawed, eg,
too timid, too lacking in self confidence, too stubborn.)
I suspect instructors see their goal as accomplishing the activity
rather than supporting the child. If a child didn't want to do any of
the activities in a program, wouldn't it feel like a failure at the
end? And it's likely if the parents have put their child in a program
that's so counter to their child's nature it's *because* the parents
want the child pushed.
But from an unschooling perspective, its more important that the child
trust the parent will listen and be their advocate than that the child
succeed at this one task that's right now before him. The conventional
wisdom is that kids will remain timid if they don't experience success
beyond their comfort zone. But what's that theory based on? Where's
the control group of kids whose pace at exploring their boundaries is
supported? (Well, it's unschoolers but we're so outside the norm that
we don't get included in the data people use to base their conclusions
on. ;-) Where's the follow up on the psychological effect on kids who
were pushed but didn't succeed? Or succeeded but end up feeling
uncomfortable that they allowed themselves to be pushed? Or get the
idea that their own sense of self can't be trusted and they need to
rely on others to push them?
Unfortunately it's the rousing successes from pushing that stick in
people's minds. It's the musicians with great talent that thank their
parents for pushing them to practice and continue that stick. We don't
see the far more common stories of people who hated being pushed, who
acquired a distaste for what they were pushed into (and in some cases
a distaste for the parents who cared more about their agenda for the
child than about the child.)
More and more I'm seeing programs where the instructors insist that
children be there because they want to be. It's probably because it's
best for the instructors and the other kids in the class. But it's a
side benefit for reluctant kids whose parents might have pushed them
to do something the kids didn't want to.
What parents can do instead of pushing is respecting the child's
feelings. And in some cases dropping it until the child is older and
then offering again. And in some cases keep the door open to the
opportunity so it's available for when the child decides they're
ready. And in some cases ask them to give it a try and they can drop
it if they don't like it. (Sometimes their image of what something is
like is far off of what it is just from lack of experience. Come up
with a couple of ways to get over a hump (like staying with them). But
*do* respect their discomfort. What they can get from the activity is
no where near as important as them trusting you're their advocate
against pressure to move outside their comfort zone.)
What's better depends on the circumstance. It depends on the child.
And in many many cases: Ask! Ask after the fact how the child would
like the parent to handle situations like that. And then do it. Be
trustworthy. Check in every once in a while to see if what the child
asked for is working and if they'd like to try another tactic. (If a
child doesn't know, be okay with that. Some don't. But you've planted
a seed and you can ask again next time after they've had time to turn
over possibilities.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Donndelinger
Personally, I was pushed a lot as a child despite feeling fear and that
resulted in a dramatic lack of trust in my physical abilities. I labeled
myself unathletic and clumsy but I love to push my body physically. It
wasn't until college when I started competing in powerlifting that I
realized this. I'm just better at activities where I work alone and
don't have to leave the ground! And there are physiological reasons
for this ....the way I'm wired, I get dizzy easily and my visual
perception is not integrated. So what is easy for others can be very
challenging for me. And other stuff that's easy for me (i.e. squatting
300 pounds) would be hard for others. We should never presume we know
what it is like to be in another person's body, nor judge.
My son is a lot like me (irony intended given my above statement). He
has been very timid physically and socially in the past .... when he
told me at the Great Big Happy Life Conference a few weeks ago that he
had gone on a long hike with some of the older boys and a dad and had
gone into a cave, I was stunned. He was so non-chalant (sp?) about it
but I could tell he had a good time and was proud of himself. His idea,
his experience, his success. So part of what I do for him is help the
world around him respect his "no's" so that when he says "yes", it's his
"yes".
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
resulted in a dramatic lack of trust in my physical abilities. I labeled
myself unathletic and clumsy but I love to push my body physically. It
wasn't until college when I started competing in powerlifting that I
realized this. I'm just better at activities where I work alone and
don't have to leave the ground! And there are physiological reasons
for this ....the way I'm wired, I get dizzy easily and my visual
perception is not integrated. So what is easy for others can be very
challenging for me. And other stuff that's easy for me (i.e. squatting
300 pounds) would be hard for others. We should never presume we know
what it is like to be in another person's body, nor judge.
My son is a lot like me (irony intended given my above statement). He
has been very timid physically and socially in the past .... when he
told me at the Great Big Happy Life Conference a few weeks ago that he
had gone on a long hike with some of the older boys and a dad and had
gone into a cave, I was stunned. He was so non-chalant (sp?) about it
but I could tell he had a good time and was proud of himself. His idea,
his experience, his success. So part of what I do for him is help the
world around him respect his "no's" so that when he says "yes", it's his
"yes".
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> . But the policy
> of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
> often invisible to the ones who are pushing.
>
>
>
k
>>>Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things that might come up in a girl's life.<<<Or a guy's. A much older guy in his mid 20s. He had a chance encounter
with an older girl who seemed to be very lonely and then went against
his better judgment getting involved with her because he let her
insistence in a weak moment get to him. He was totally pissed with
himself and the person who introduced them. Without getting into a lot
more details the upshot of this is that his feeling something wasn't
right about her was spot on. He went thru months of harrassment and
very mental pleas for his attention afterward. It was insane.
Not unlike a lot of people I know, he's the son of parents who pushed
him into things on a regular basis and a very dutiful sort. But he
went thru some hell over *not* trusting his feelings on what turned
out to be extremely important. I'm just glad he didn't have worse
repercussions.
The kind of confidence one needs when one isn't supported in qualms
and scrupples needs to be in place before it's actually called on.
~Katherine
On 6/19/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> On 6/19/2010 1:25 AM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
>> I don't, understand what you mean by:
>>
>> Pam: "They were wrong to do that - they
>> presumed too much. They didn't know how brave she normally is. They took
>> her for a kid who needed some support. They were wrong."
>
> She didn't need support for DOING the activity. She needed to be
> supported in trusting her own feelings that this activity was not a good
> idea for her at that time.
> It didn't occur to them because they were so sure that doing it was what
> would be good for her.
>
>>
>> Till now, I have not experienced distinctions that would make this
>> wrong and it seems like something important to learn.
>
> In nearly two decades of this kind of work you have never seen a time
> when it was wrong to try to persuade a child to participate? It shows
> such total lack of trust in the child's own understanding of
> him/herself. My daughter knew herself very very well, but the
> instructors were able to undermine her trust in herself by very clearly
> not trusting her. I was at the same event, by the way, but not right
> there. They could have asked me if I thought they should try to get her
> to do it. But they probably thought like you do, that the parents are
> too inclined to withdraw their child from something scary, because of
> their own fears.
>
>>
>> Honestly, I have also never thought it particularly 'wrong' for a
>> child to experience fear or even freeze.
>
> Then stay away from my kids, okay? I don't want you talking them into
> doing something that leads to them hanging on the side of a mountain,
> frozen with fear, especially when you've pushed them to ignore their own
> judgment about what they are comfortable doing.
>
> Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
> accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
> anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
> that might come up in a girl's life.
>
> The exact opposite of what these kinds of activities are supposed to be
> developing in the kids - lack of trust in themselves (and lack of trust
> in parents to know their kids better than a complete stranger no matter
> how many years of experience they may have had).
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
thecugals
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
***It's the musicians with great talent that thank their
parents for pushing them to practice and continue that stick. We don't
see the far more common stories of people who hated being pushed, who
acquired a distaste for what they were pushed into (and in some cases
a distaste for the parents who cared more about their agenda for the
child than about the child.)***
Someone who was a guest conductor of the LA Philharmonic (I believe it was) asked, at the end of the concert, for the musicians to raise their hands if their parents made them take music lessons as kids. Only one did.
Beth
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2010, at 9:58 AM, thecugals wrote:
How frustrating it is for parents who want to open the doors to and
pave the paths to brilliance for their kids to hear that kids need to
choose to pursue the paths themselves. Parents want to *do* something,
but really all they can do is supply opportunities, support for who
the child is, support for what interests them and genes :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Someone who was a guest conductor of the LA Philharmonic (I believeCool! That question should be asked more! :-)
> it was) asked, at the end of the concert, for the musicians to raise
> their hands if their parents made them take music lessons as kids.
> Only one did.
How frustrating it is for parents who want to open the doors to and
pave the paths to brilliance for their kids to hear that kids need to
choose to pursue the paths themselves. Parents want to *do* something,
but really all they can do is supply opportunities, support for who
the child is, support for what interests them and genes :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life.> mm m>>>>>>>
Gavin De Becker ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_de_Becker%c2%a0) the creator of MOSAIC and writter or 3 books
wrote in his books that it is the most important thing for people, specially women, to listen to their fear.
His first book is called The Gift of Fear. Its a book her wrote for women. he writes that the most important step for
wa
He says that we learn not to listen to our fear and that it is a big mistake , that we should always listen to our fear.
I want my children to listen to their feelings and be in tune with them.
I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel fear and it just does not feel right to them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life.> mm m>>>>>>>
Gavin De Becker ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_de_Becker%c2%a0) the creator of MOSAIC and writter or 3 books
wrote in his books that it is the most important thing for people, specially women, to listen to their fear.
His first book is called The Gift of Fear. Its a book her wrote for women. he writes that the most important step for
wa
He says that we learn not to listen to our fear and that it is a big mistake , that we should always listen to our fear.
I want my children to listen to their feelings and be in tune with them.
I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel fear and it just does not feel right to them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I remember once talking to Schuyler about taking Gigi a second time to the dentist.
When Gigi was 2 year old I took her to the dentist to do Ozone treatment on her four upper front teeth.
I chose that treatment because it only takes 40 seconds of a little air per tooth and that is it, no pain, drill or anything.
She hated it.
I needed to take her back 6 months later to do another and I made a specially trip with the whole family ( the dentist is 3.5 hours away) to
a fabulous water park ( the Kalahari) that is only one hour away from the dentist, so I could take her there.
We played at the water park the first day and I was supposed to take her in the next morning, while Brian and MD played at the park and then come back for more play with her.
I was trying to make it fun for her as I had been asking her if she wanted to go back and take care of her tooth.
She kept telling me no. She did not want to.
That night before the appointment I could not sleep. She did not want to go but I felt torn for not taking care of her cavities.
The next day she was adamant she did not want to go so I canceled the appointment and we stayed in the park and had fun with dad.
For a few months I kept asking her about going to the dentist. She finally was OK with it and we did go months later.
She did great that time and loved it. She likes the dentist now and even asks to go sometimes.
I am so glad I did listen to her even if I felt so torn for days after the fact. I remember talking to Schuyler about it and how
I still doubted my decision even if I would not had taken her against her will.
She was 2.5 when that happened but it is never too early to trust your child's feelings and listen to them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When Gigi was 2 year old I took her to the dentist to do Ozone treatment on her four upper front teeth.
I chose that treatment because it only takes 40 seconds of a little air per tooth and that is it, no pain, drill or anything.
She hated it.
I needed to take her back 6 months later to do another and I made a specially trip with the whole family ( the dentist is 3.5 hours away) to
a fabulous water park ( the Kalahari) that is only one hour away from the dentist, so I could take her there.
We played at the water park the first day and I was supposed to take her in the next morning, while Brian and MD played at the park and then come back for more play with her.
I was trying to make it fun for her as I had been asking her if she wanted to go back and take care of her tooth.
She kept telling me no. She did not want to.
That night before the appointment I could not sleep. She did not want to go but I felt torn for not taking care of her cavities.
The next day she was adamant she did not want to go so I canceled the appointment and we stayed in the park and had fun with dad.
For a few months I kept asking her about going to the dentist. She finally was OK with it and we did go months later.
She did great that time and loved it. She likes the dentist now and even asks to go sometimes.
I am so glad I did listen to her even if I felt so torn for days after the fact. I remember talking to Schuyler about it and how
I still doubted my decision even if I would not had taken her against her will.
She was 2.5 when that happened but it is never too early to trust your child's feelings and listen to them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lang
I have found that, in both working in and participating in outdoor/outwardbound/bring the inner city kids to the wilderness-type activities, there can be an US VERSUS THEM mentality amongst the facilitators. It has seemed like the idea is that as "facilitators" the goal is for the participant to have the experience that the facilitator wants and NOT to help facilitate the experience the participant wants.
Liza in Los Angeles
Liza in Los Angeles
Pam Sorooshian
Apply those thoughts to other things
of some specific girl-related reasons. But, of course, the same thing
applies to boys. My bad!
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Sorry about that - I only have girls and was, at that moment, thinking
> that might come up in a girl's life."
>
> That's also applicable to a boy's life.
>
of some specific girl-related reasons. But, of course, the same thing
applies to boys. My bad!
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
"But the policy
of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
often invisible to the ones who are pushing."
This is a big time insight. I agree that when the kids discover the
wonder of achieving something new, it all seems justified. Though
pushing is not really what I meant by support.
It is an incredible high for the child to have been able to do
something they thought was so impossible before. It is also very
useful for many children. But now, I am questioning its utility. Is
the invisible price for the few who don't 'succeed' with the support
as well higher than we (me and others who encourage stretching limits)
realize?
It is easier to notice the dramatic change in the child who was scared
earlier, but succeeded. It is less dramatic (or perhaps desired) that
a child who was scared continued to be scared. While we don't do the
kind of stuff where a child can't refuse, it is easy for instructors
to say, "Okay, so she couldn't conquer her fear". Also, I realize that
while we never force a child to do an activity if they refuse, we also
don't make it explicit that refusal is a choice. It is more usual for
us to not suggest it unless the child refuses (as different from
scared).
However, I see the value in being clear on this and am going to bring
it up in the next meeting and also become more aware in our life. Its
not really a choice to stretch limits if they don't know that they
don't have to stretch if they don't want to. Or we can figure out a
way to research this impact.
"I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel
fear and it just does not feel right to them."
Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
for the first time? Loads of things involve fear. Fear never feels
right. My heartbeat goes up, I get shaky. There are other things that
tempt me beyond it. It is a natural instinct - to be alert, not
necessarily back off. I don't think this is what Gavin de Becker talks
about, though I admit I have not read all his work and not recently.
He is speaking in terms of physical safety and the power of our
instincts to sense threat when no cause is apparent... that niggling
unease, inexplicable fear. It is our unconscious mind registering
things out of familiar pattern that we don't consciously notice. That
is what he describes, unless I remember wrong.
I don't think there is any intended harm toward the child in
activities where the fear is pretty evident - I could fall, hurt
myself, be unable to do this..... the causes are right there and not
inexplicable fears that we are powerless to do anything about.
Vidyut
of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
often invisible to the ones who are pushing."
This is a big time insight. I agree that when the kids discover the
wonder of achieving something new, it all seems justified. Though
pushing is not really what I meant by support.
It is an incredible high for the child to have been able to do
something they thought was so impossible before. It is also very
useful for many children. But now, I am questioning its utility. Is
the invisible price for the few who don't 'succeed' with the support
as well higher than we (me and others who encourage stretching limits)
realize?
It is easier to notice the dramatic change in the child who was scared
earlier, but succeeded. It is less dramatic (or perhaps desired) that
a child who was scared continued to be scared. While we don't do the
kind of stuff where a child can't refuse, it is easy for instructors
to say, "Okay, so she couldn't conquer her fear". Also, I realize that
while we never force a child to do an activity if they refuse, we also
don't make it explicit that refusal is a choice. It is more usual for
us to not suggest it unless the child refuses (as different from
scared).
However, I see the value in being clear on this and am going to bring
it up in the next meeting and also become more aware in our life. Its
not really a choice to stretch limits if they don't know that they
don't have to stretch if they don't want to. Or we can figure out a
way to research this impact.
"I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel
fear and it just does not feel right to them."
Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
for the first time? Loads of things involve fear. Fear never feels
right. My heartbeat goes up, I get shaky. There are other things that
tempt me beyond it. It is a natural instinct - to be alert, not
necessarily back off. I don't think this is what Gavin de Becker talks
about, though I admit I have not read all his work and not recently.
He is speaking in terms of physical safety and the power of our
instincts to sense threat when no cause is apparent... that niggling
unease, inexplicable fear. It is our unconscious mind registering
things out of familiar pattern that we don't consciously notice. That
is what he describes, unless I remember wrong.
I don't think there is any intended harm toward the child in
activities where the fear is pretty evident - I could fall, hurt
myself, be unable to do this..... the causes are right there and not
inexplicable fears that we are powerless to do anything about.
Vidyut
On 6/19/10, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> <<<<<Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
> accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
> anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
> that might come up in a girl's life.> mm m>>>>>>>
>
>
> Gavin De Becker ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_de_Becker%c2%a0) the creator
> of MOSAIC and writter or 3 books
> wrote in his books that it is the most important thing for people, specially
> women, to listen to their fear.
> His first book is called The Gift of Fear. Its a book her wrote for
> women. he writes that the most important step for
> wa
>
> He says that we learn not to listen to our fear and that it is a big mistake
> , that we should always listen to our fear.
> I want my children to listen to their feelings and be in tune with them.
> I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel fear
> and it just does not feel right to them.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Vidyut Kale
"Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at
all. Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly
those signing on for adventure. Children are more likely to think of
themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did,
than devalue themselves based on what they couldn't do. I admit my
unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled
children. The few I did were not likely to think like that.
MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate. Which is how I discover
new capabilities. I don't see this as a bad thing, but as something
that is a fact of life. Most kids I know are curious. I don't think
many of them would be depressed by something like this. More likely,
they would be hooked to what they discovered. I have observed in
adults this desire to know already everything about themselves, which
I have not observed in children. They are used to finding out new
things about themselves all the time and know very well they don't
have a clue on many things they can or can't handle.
There is no 'should' involved in this story, nor is there any mistrust
implied. In fact, it is a trust in the child's ability to consider out
something new - they key word being consider. I don't recall saying or
implying anywhere anything beyond creating comfort around their fears,
which is not the same thing as they 'should' so something. I have also
said that their desire may change, and "if the desire exists". I don't
know why this particular interpretation was formed and reacted so
strongly to.
Vidyut
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at
all. Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly
those signing on for adventure. Children are more likely to think of
themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did,
than devalue themselves based on what they couldn't do. I admit my
unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled
children. The few I did were not likely to think like that.
MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate. Which is how I discover
new capabilities. I don't see this as a bad thing, but as something
that is a fact of life. Most kids I know are curious. I don't think
many of them would be depressed by something like this. More likely,
they would be hooked to what they discovered. I have observed in
adults this desire to know already everything about themselves, which
I have not observed in children. They are used to finding out new
things about themselves all the time and know very well they don't
have a clue on many things they can or can't handle.
There is no 'should' involved in this story, nor is there any mistrust
implied. In fact, it is a trust in the child's ability to consider out
something new - they key word being consider. I don't recall saying or
implying anywhere anything beyond creating comfort around their fears,
which is not the same thing as they 'should' so something. I have also
said that their desire may change, and "if the desire exists". I don't
know why this particular interpretation was formed and reacted so
strongly to.
Vidyut
On 6/19/10, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
> "But the policy
> of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
> often invisible to the ones who are pushing."
>
> This is a big time insight. I agree that when the kids discover the
> wonder of achieving something new, it all seems justified. Though
> pushing is not really what I meant by support.
>
> It is an incredible high for the child to have been able to do
> something they thought was so impossible before. It is also very
> useful for many children. But now, I am questioning its utility. Is
> the invisible price for the few who don't 'succeed' with the support
> as well higher than we (me and others who encourage stretching limits)
> realize?
>
> It is easier to notice the dramatic change in the child who was scared
> earlier, but succeeded. It is less dramatic (or perhaps desired) that
> a child who was scared continued to be scared. While we don't do the
> kind of stuff where a child can't refuse, it is easy for instructors
> to say, "Okay, so she couldn't conquer her fear". Also, I realize that
> while we never force a child to do an activity if they refuse, we also
> don't make it explicit that refusal is a choice. It is more usual for
> us to not suggest it unless the child refuses (as different from
> scared).
>
> However, I see the value in being clear on this and am going to bring
> it up in the next meeting and also become more aware in our life. Its
> not really a choice to stretch limits if they don't know that they
> don't have to stretch if they don't want to. Or we can figure out a
> way to research this impact.
>
> "I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel
> fear and it just does not feel right to them."
>
> Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
> a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
> for the first time? Loads of things involve fear. Fear never feels
> right. My heartbeat goes up, I get shaky. There are other things that
> tempt me beyond it. It is a natural instinct - to be alert, not
> necessarily back off. I don't think this is what Gavin de Becker talks
> about, though I admit I have not read all his work and not recently.
> He is speaking in terms of physical safety and the power of our
> instincts to sense threat when no cause is apparent... that niggling
> unease, inexplicable fear. It is our unconscious mind registering
> things out of familiar pattern that we don't consciously notice. That
> is what he describes, unless I remember wrong.
>
> I don't think there is any intended harm toward the child in
> activities where the fear is pretty evident - I could fall, hurt
> myself, be unable to do this..... the causes are right there and not
> inexplicable fears that we are powerless to do anything about.
>
> Vidyut
>
> On 6/19/10, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>> <<<<<Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
>> accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
>> anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
>> that might come up in a girl's life.> mm m>>>>>>>
>>
>>
>> Gavin De Becker ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_de_Becker%c2%a0) the
>> creator
>> of MOSAIC and writter or 3 books
>> wrote in his books that it is the most important thing for people,
>> specially
>> women, to listen to their fear.
>> His first book is called The Gift of Fear. Its a book her wrote for
>> women. he writes that the most important step for
>> wa
>>
>> He says that we learn not to listen to our fear and that it is a big
>> mistake
>> , that we should always listen to our fear.
>> I want my children to listen to their feelings and be in tune with them.
>> I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feel
>> fear
>> and it just does not feel right to them.
>>
>>
>> Alex Polikowsky
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<Public speaking?>>>
Absolutely! Why not? IF someone chooses to work on being OK speaking to a big audience they will.
<<<<Adventure sports?>>>
Yep! Not every is going to be an adventurer and that is OK. If my child is not the physical, adventurer type
that is great. Why would I need to change that or make him do something he fears?
<<<The dark? >>>
What is wrong with being afarid of the dark? Many kids are and most grow out of it ...or not and that is OK.
<<<<<Losing their way?>>>>
Did you mean getting lost?
<<< Asking
a girl out on a date? >>>>
Are you comparing being afraid of askinga girl on a date to fear of heights?
I have asked some of my ex-boyfriends on dates. Why does it have to be a boy doing it?
Are you watching too many movies or TV Shows," boy is to afraid to ask girl out" and needs to get over fear to live happily ever after?
<<<<Climbing a tree?>>>>>
Just last month we went to a State Park woth our Cub Scout Troop and there was the most amazing
tree for climbing I ever saw. My son and daugther wanted to climb it. I had to help my son as some of
the younger kids were jumping on and off the tree. But he wanted to do it and I helped him on many times
until he was able to do it without being afraid of falling. He did it at his pace.
I did not push him. If he did not want to climb it than it would have been fine.
He does not like to ride our pony. He has been on top of her once for maybe two minutes.
That is OK. He may never like to ride horses. his sister is 3.5 years younger and has no fear and loves to ride her pony.
<<<< Magnificent thunderstorm?>>>>>
I love thunderstorms. My kids are a little worried about them, my nephew is terrified of them.
Different people. He may never enjoy them. That is OK.
<<<< Sex
for the first time?>>>>>
Why would someone be *afraid* of sex for the first time?
If they are then it is not the right time or something happened for them to be afraid of sex.
Your first sexual experience should be thrilling and mostly will be somewhat akward but you should not
be afraid of it.
That would be wrong and if someone is afraid and fearful they should NOT do it.
I am not saying that people should just not go past their fears in some instances. Like I said about my son's treee climbing expereience he worked through his fears to conquer it. But it is a person's choice
to think through it and decide if they want to and why are they afraid. Not to listen to some else's and not thrust their inner voice telling them to not do it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Absolutely! Why not? IF someone chooses to work on being OK speaking to a big audience they will.
<<<<Adventure sports?>>>
Yep! Not every is going to be an adventurer and that is OK. If my child is not the physical, adventurer type
that is great. Why would I need to change that or make him do something he fears?
<<<The dark? >>>
What is wrong with being afarid of the dark? Many kids are and most grow out of it ...or not and that is OK.
<<<<<Losing their way?>>>>
Did you mean getting lost?
<<< Asking
a girl out on a date? >>>>
Are you comparing being afraid of askinga girl on a date to fear of heights?
I have asked some of my ex-boyfriends on dates. Why does it have to be a boy doing it?
Are you watching too many movies or TV Shows," boy is to afraid to ask girl out" and needs to get over fear to live happily ever after?
<<<<Climbing a tree?>>>>>
Just last month we went to a State Park woth our Cub Scout Troop and there was the most amazing
tree for climbing I ever saw. My son and daugther wanted to climb it. I had to help my son as some of
the younger kids were jumping on and off the tree. But he wanted to do it and I helped him on many times
until he was able to do it without being afraid of falling. He did it at his pace.
I did not push him. If he did not want to climb it than it would have been fine.
He does not like to ride our pony. He has been on top of her once for maybe two minutes.
That is OK. He may never like to ride horses. his sister is 3.5 years younger and has no fear and loves to ride her pony.
<<<< Magnificent thunderstorm?>>>>>
I love thunderstorms. My kids are a little worried about them, my nephew is terrified of them.
Different people. He may never enjoy them. That is OK.
<<<< Sex
for the first time?>>>>>
Why would someone be *afraid* of sex for the first time?
If they are then it is not the right time or something happened for them to be afraid of sex.
Your first sexual experience should be thrilling and mostly will be somewhat akward but you should not
be afraid of it.
That would be wrong and if someone is afraid and fearful they should NOT do it.
I am not saying that people should just not go past their fears in some instances. Like I said about my son's treee climbing expereience he worked through his fears to conquer it. But it is a person's choice
to think through it and decide if they want to and why are they afraid. Not to listen to some else's and not thrust their inner voice telling them to not do it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
"Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
There is a data on food that demonstrates the thing which you have never seen at all. Children whose parents push food on them, tell them when they are hungry and what they are hungry for are much less able to monitor when they are full than are children who are allowed to eat when and what they want to eat. It seems to me that not trusting a child to know their own limitations can have huge repercussion. I can't imagine how unschooling can appeal to someone who believes that children can be pushed without negative effects. Really.
My sense of what I can handle is pretty accurate. As my confidence grows about something I broach it more readily. Someone pushing me beyond my comfort level is someone who I resist with great vigor. I have watched both Simon and Linnaea learn new things without being pushed by others, I have seen them deal with the things that once scared them as they've grown. I have learned so much to trust their understanding of themselves and of their situations, they often have so much more information about why they do or don't want to do something than I do, I can't even fathom what you are writing.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
"Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at
all. Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly
those signing on for adventure. Children are more likely to think of
themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did,
than devalue themselves based on what they couldn't do. I admit my
unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled
children. The few I did were not likely to think like that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
There is a data on food that demonstrates the thing which you have never seen at all. Children whose parents push food on them, tell them when they are hungry and what they are hungry for are much less able to monitor when they are full than are children who are allowed to eat when and what they want to eat. It seems to me that not trusting a child to know their own limitations can have huge repercussion. I can't imagine how unschooling can appeal to someone who believes that children can be pushed without negative effects. Really.
My sense of what I can handle is pretty accurate. As my confidence grows about something I broach it more readily. Someone pushing me beyond my comfort level is someone who I resist with great vigor. I have watched both Simon and Linnaea learn new things without being pushed by others, I have seen them deal with the things that once scared them as they've grown. I have learned so much to trust their understanding of themselves and of their situations, they often have so much more information about why they do or don't want to do something than I do, I can't even fathom what you are writing.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
"Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at
all. Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly
those signing on for adventure. Children are more likely to think of
themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did,
than devalue themselves based on what they couldn't do. I admit my
unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled
children. The few I did were not likely to think like that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Trusting them, respecting their decisions about what they want to do has given them the freedom to try or not try something of their own choosing. Being willing to take the hit for being an overprotective parent in those moments when whoever is pushing is really invested in getting them to do what they want them to do. ***
It's such a different approach from what mainstream parenting does! There are plenty of overprotective parents out there, telling their kids what to do and when and how much, so that they know that the kids are making all the "right" choices, as defined by the parents.
It's really different to be overprotective of your children's choices. From the outside it can look like one and the same, and I've taken the hit from that too! I've even let people assume that I'm making the decision for my kids so that they don't try to convince or talk my kids into doing something they clearly don't want to do. I'm protecting their decisions for them! It's so very different when the choice is the child's choice and the parents respect that, even if other people don't or won't understand that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's such a different approach from what mainstream parenting does! There are plenty of overprotective parents out there, telling their kids what to do and when and how much, so that they know that the kids are making all the "right" choices, as defined by the parents.
It's really different to be overprotective of your children's choices. From the outside it can look like one and the same, and I've taken the hit from that too! I've even let people assume that I'm making the decision for my kids so that they don't try to convince or talk my kids into doing something they clearly don't want to do. I'm protecting their decisions for them! It's so very different when the choice is the child's choice and the parents respect that, even if other people don't or won't understand that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===I have rarely seen this happen in real life, though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at all.===
Just because you personally don't SEE evidence of those thoughts doesn't mean they don't exist.
===Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly those signing on for adventure.===
Again, more assumptions. Please don't use terms like "most people".
===I admit my unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled children.===
Precisely the point that has been made time and time again.
===The few [unschooled children] I did [meet] were not likely to think like that.===
Your assumptions, yet again. How do you know what they were likely to think.
===MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate. Which is how I discover new capabilities.===
But you were not unschooled, Vidyut, and, as you've mentioned, your child is an infant so you've not yet had personal experience with how discovering new capabilities happens for unschooled kids.
I don't come to this list to hear about how things happen for kids who are traditionally-schooled and traditionally-educated; I already know that perspective. I come to this list for insight from parents who have personal experience with unschooling. As a reader of this list, it's extremely frustrating to get that insight and have someone else who doesn't have that insight to debate it with examples and assumptions that have nothing whatsoever to do with unschooling.
Glenda
Just because you personally don't SEE evidence of those thoughts doesn't mean they don't exist.
===Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularly those signing on for adventure.===
Again, more assumptions. Please don't use terms like "most people".
===I admit my unschooler is an infant, and I have not observed many unschooled children.===
Precisely the point that has been made time and time again.
===The few [unschooled children] I did [meet] were not likely to think like that.===
Your assumptions, yet again. How do you know what they were likely to think.
===MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate. Which is how I discover new capabilities.===
But you were not unschooled, Vidyut, and, as you've mentioned, your child is an infant so you've not yet had personal experience with how discovering new capabilities happens for unschooled kids.
I don't come to this list to hear about how things happen for kids who are traditionally-schooled and traditionally-educated; I already know that perspective. I come to this list for insight from parents who have personal experience with unschooling. As a reader of this list, it's extremely frustrating to get that insight and have someone else who doesn't have that insight to debate it with examples and assumptions that have nothing whatsoever to do with unschooling.
Glenda
k
Seems to me it's easy to think that children are obligated to master
fear. It honestly has been a point of deschooling for me in our
family. Karl was afraid of the dark and mostly overcame that. I was
mostly sympathethic but had a hard time relating since I was not a kid
who was afraid of the dark. I have a sister a year younger and one of
my fondest memories is getting up at night from our room to take her
to the bathroom since she was scared and wanted company. That helped
me to respect it when I had a kid who feared the dark rather than
disregard it and make him push thru his fear.
That experience gave me confidence to respect other fears encountered later on.
I was the kind of kid who was brave and in many ways encouraged to be
so even to the point of foolhardiness. My dad wanted us to forge ahead
about certain things. I didn't cotton to horseriding and still feel
like a wimp over that even tho I realize now that I'm not the
"take-charge" sort who usually finds riding horses easy. I have been
made out as a sort of wimpy parent by people who think I'm not taking
charge of Karl. It's the same sort of thing.
But I find it to be a strength to relationship building, not just with
Karl but also my mate. Brian doesn't have to do the things he does
(work almost everyday, maintain cars, be at peace with us, take us out
to eat, buy groceries we pick out, to name but a few things) anymore
than I have to do things for him. Being in a relationship doesn't have
to be about mutual slavery. I consider the things I do for others to
be almost all a matter of choice. And yes the relationship relies on
those acts. Some action is where there are needs.
By the same token, my child doesn't have to respond to someone's
expectation that he ignore his fears and live up to external desires
for him to achieve. He can if he chooses to.
Might it be that you just haven't noticed when others around you have
had their achievements superceded by enthusiasms and expectations that
gave them the idea they were obligated to achieve? I know for me it
was a silent hope that no one noticed I was afraid to screw things up.
In hopes that I looked confident about something I didn't really want
to do. Horses are definitely one of the more scary of those and no
matter how much I want to overcome the phobia... I really don't care
to get over the fear. If I absolutely had to... maybe I could. Dunno.
~Katherine
fear. It honestly has been a point of deschooling for me in our
family. Karl was afraid of the dark and mostly overcame that. I was
mostly sympathethic but had a hard time relating since I was not a kid
who was afraid of the dark. I have a sister a year younger and one of
my fondest memories is getting up at night from our room to take her
to the bathroom since she was scared and wanted company. That helped
me to respect it when I had a kid who feared the dark rather than
disregard it and make him push thru his fear.
That experience gave me confidence to respect other fears encountered later on.
I was the kind of kid who was brave and in many ways encouraged to be
so even to the point of foolhardiness. My dad wanted us to forge ahead
about certain things. I didn't cotton to horseriding and still feel
like a wimp over that even tho I realize now that I'm not the
"take-charge" sort who usually finds riding horses easy. I have been
made out as a sort of wimpy parent by people who think I'm not taking
charge of Karl. It's the same sort of thing.
But I find it to be a strength to relationship building, not just with
Karl but also my mate. Brian doesn't have to do the things he does
(work almost everyday, maintain cars, be at peace with us, take us out
to eat, buy groceries we pick out, to name but a few things) anymore
than I have to do things for him. Being in a relationship doesn't have
to be about mutual slavery. I consider the things I do for others to
be almost all a matter of choice. And yes the relationship relies on
those acts. Some action is where there are needs.
By the same token, my child doesn't have to respond to someone's
expectation that he ignore his fears and live up to external desires
for him to achieve. He can if he chooses to.
Might it be that you just haven't noticed when others around you have
had their achievements superceded by enthusiasms and expectations that
gave them the idea they were obligated to achieve? I know for me it
was a silent hope that no one noticed I was afraid to screw things up.
In hopes that I looked confident about something I didn't really want
to do. Horses are definitely one of the more scary of those and no
matter how much I want to overcome the phobia... I really don't care
to get over the fear. If I absolutely had to... maybe I could. Dunno.
~Katherine
On 6/19/10, Deborah Donndelinger <deborahdonndelinger@...> wrote:
> Personally, I was pushed a lot as a child despite feeling fear and that
> resulted in a dramatic lack of trust in my physical abilities. I labeled
> myself unathletic and clumsy but I love to push my body physically. It
> wasn't until college when I started competing in powerlifting that I
> realized this. I'm just better at activities where I work alone and
> don't have to leave the ground! And there are physiological reasons
> for this ....the way I'm wired, I get dizzy easily and my visual
> perception is not integrated. So what is easy for others can be very
> challenging for me. And other stuff that's easy for me (i.e. squatting
> 300 pounds) would be hard for others. We should never presume we know
> what it is like to be in another person's body, nor judge.
>
> My son is a lot like me (irony intended given my above statement). He
> has been very timid physically and socially in the past .... when he
> told me at the Great Big Happy Life Conference a few weeks ago that he
> had gone on a long hike with some of the older boys and a dad and had
> gone into a cave, I was stunned. He was so non-chalant (sp?) about it
> but I could tell he had a good time and was proud of himself. His idea,
> his experience, his success. So part of what I do for him is help the
> world around him respect his "no's" so that when he says "yes", it's his
> "yes".
>
>
>
> Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>>
>> . But the policy
>> of pushing kids out of their comfort zone comes at a price that's
>> often invisible to the ones who are pushing.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Su Penn
On Jun 19, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
This is only one part of his make-up; on the other hand, he is often untroubled by others' opinions of him (he does not seem to care at all that he is 9 and still using training wheels on his bike when other kids have long since given them up, or that he is regularly mistaken for a girl because of his very long hair). It's not something that comes up all the time. But he can be very hard on himself for not being able to do something _he_ thinks he should be able to.
The way I have figured this stuff out is through trial and error. "Wow, that was way too much for me, won't be doing that again," the feeling of regret when I don't try something I was interested in because I felt fearful or unsure, the satisfaction of trying something new and succeeding at it.
I do look to trusted others for guidance when I'm not sure: friends, my partner, sometimes a therapist. One of my parenting goals is to be a trusted other for my kids. So sometimes I will say to Eric, "I think you'd enjoy that if you tried it," or "I'll support you any way I can if you decide to try it." I also say, "It's OK not to do it right now," and things like, "I'm sure we'll have a chance to try it another time," or "I'll bring you back if you want to come try it sometime." I think one of my jobs is to hold all those possibilities open for him. And to support him when another adult is pushing an agenda or pressuring him.
I'm honestly curious. I was just thinking the other day about how hellish my childhood was and how much I longed to escape it, both the house I grew up in and the schools I was attending. But to everyone around I looked like I was doing great. I was always clean and well-groomed, I had boyfriends in high school, I was in Honor Society, I was a National Merit Scholar, I played piano for the swing choir and lettered in downhill and slalom racing, I was polite and well-behaved and didn't do drugs or have sex or drink. But I was miserable and I was being damaged by toxic parenting and I didn't know how to say No to things I was uncomfortable with until much later in life. Not only could no one have seen this from the outside, but every adult I attempted to reach out to, including my parents and teachers, to whom I said in so many words, "I think I need help, maybe I need a psychiatrist, I'm miserable" pooh-poohed me, in part because my success was so plain to see.
So I carry this skepticism that you (the generic you, not the specific you) can tell how a kid is really doing from how they appear to you in whatever role of scout leader, teacher, wilderness guide you've encountered them. A kid like I was gets really good at not letting adults know how she's really feeling, so it's easy for me to imagine a group leader walking away from a day's adventure with a great sense of satisfaction at having helped that timid kid discover her inner strength, while that timid kid is going home to cry from having once again had her feelings and wishes ridden right over by a grown-up.
Most kids are not listened to. Grown-ups tell them then they're hungry, when they're not hungry, when they're sleepy, when they're not sleepy, when they "really" want to go outside to play, even who they want to be friends with. Just doing our best to listen to and believe what kids tell us about themselves--our kids, kids we encounter who aren't ours--is a big step away from that.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, almost 3!
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing anWith gentle good humor, I have to wonder what desert island you're living on.
> interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
> though it is not impossible in theory. Actually, I haven't seen it at
> all.
> Most people have a more solid sense of themselves, particularlyIn my experience, this depends very much on the temperament of the child. My oldest son tends to be a perfectionist, and this looks to me to be like something he came with, because goodness knows we've never suggested that the only way to be a success at anything is to do it perfectly (my children learn the opposite, in fact, every day if they pay any attention at all to my attempts at housekeeping). So, sometimes, even though he's never gotten that message from us, he will describe himself as stupid for not understanding something right away, for instance, rather than putting that one time of being slower to catch on in the context of all the many times he's understood something quickly.
> those signing on for adventure. Children are more likely to think of
> themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did,
> than devalue themselves based on what they couldn't do.
This is only one part of his make-up; on the other hand, he is often untroubled by others' opinions of him (he does not seem to care at all that he is 9 and still using training wheels on his bike when other kids have long since given them up, or that he is regularly mistaken for a girl because of his very long hair). It's not something that comes up all the time. But he can be very hard on himself for not being able to do something _he_ thinks he should be able to.
> MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate.Mine mostly is. Though I'd say I live with a kind of Venn diagram: stuff I know I'm not interested in or can't do; stuff I know I am interested in and can do; stuff I'm interested in but not sure whether I can do it or not, or hesitant to try, or not sure I am up to making the sacrifices I'd have to make to accomplish it, or otherwise "unsure."
The way I have figured this stuff out is through trial and error. "Wow, that was way too much for me, won't be doing that again," the feeling of regret when I don't try something I was interested in because I felt fearful or unsure, the satisfaction of trying something new and succeeding at it.
I do look to trusted others for guidance when I'm not sure: friends, my partner, sometimes a therapist. One of my parenting goals is to be a trusted other for my kids. So sometimes I will say to Eric, "I think you'd enjoy that if you tried it," or "I'll support you any way I can if you decide to try it." I also say, "It's OK not to do it right now," and things like, "I'm sure we'll have a chance to try it another time," or "I'll bring you back if you want to come try it sometime." I think one of my jobs is to hold all those possibilities open for him. And to support him when another adult is pushing an agenda or pressuring him.
> Which is how I discoverHow do you know this? How could you possibly know this?
> new capabilities. I don't see this as a bad thing, but as something
> that is a fact of life. Most kids I know are curious. I don't think
> many of them would be depressed by something like this.
I'm honestly curious. I was just thinking the other day about how hellish my childhood was and how much I longed to escape it, both the house I grew up in and the schools I was attending. But to everyone around I looked like I was doing great. I was always clean and well-groomed, I had boyfriends in high school, I was in Honor Society, I was a National Merit Scholar, I played piano for the swing choir and lettered in downhill and slalom racing, I was polite and well-behaved and didn't do drugs or have sex or drink. But I was miserable and I was being damaged by toxic parenting and I didn't know how to say No to things I was uncomfortable with until much later in life. Not only could no one have seen this from the outside, but every adult I attempted to reach out to, including my parents and teachers, to whom I said in so many words, "I think I need help, maybe I need a psychiatrist, I'm miserable" pooh-poohed me, in part because my success was so plain to see.
So I carry this skepticism that you (the generic you, not the specific you) can tell how a kid is really doing from how they appear to you in whatever role of scout leader, teacher, wilderness guide you've encountered them. A kid like I was gets really good at not letting adults know how she's really feeling, so it's easy for me to imagine a group leader walking away from a day's adventure with a great sense of satisfaction at having helped that timid kid discover her inner strength, while that timid kid is going home to cry from having once again had her feelings and wishes ridden right over by a grown-up.
Most kids are not listened to. Grown-ups tell them then they're hungry, when they're not hungry, when they're sleepy, when they're not sleepy, when they "really" want to go outside to play, even who they want to be friends with. Just doing our best to listen to and believe what kids tell us about themselves--our kids, kids we encounter who aren't ours--is a big step away from that.
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, almost 3!
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Robin Bentley
> I was the kind of kid who was brave and in many ways encouraged to beSenna loves horses. She's been riding since she was 6. And she's
> so even to the point of foolhardiness. My dad wanted us to forge ahead
> about certain things. I didn't cotton to horseriding and still feel
> like a wimp over that even tho I realize now that I'm not the
> "take-charge" sort who usually finds riding horses easy. I have been
> made out as a sort of wimpy parent by people who think I'm not taking
> charge of Karl. It's the same sort of thing.
>
pretty good at it - once she gets on the horse. She's at the point of
tears now when she's expected to tack up her horse. So, she's not
riding right now.
Senna had a perfect riding instructor a couple of years ago, who was
used to working with children and adults who had fears or some kind of
difficulty (some not even related to horses). She tacked up Senna's
horse, asked her to help now and again and always accepted a "no".
Little by little, Senna was able to get closer and do more. Then Mary,
her instructor moved to Alaska. Bad news for us.
Senna thinks her fear stems from a bad experience with tacking up a
particular horse before we found Mary, but if I think back, she's
always been sensitive to animals and perhaps was always a bit freaked
out by the on-the-ground part. I wonder if the instructors at her
first and second camps pushed her through her fear? I was close and
stayed at the barn, but I wasn't allowed to be behind the scenes. I
would notice a glimmer of discomfort now and again in future lessons,
but she seemed to overcome it. Little did I know.
So the upshot of it all is that at 15, one of her most-loved hobbies
(and indeed at one time she had set herself the goal of becoming a
jumper as a career) has ceased to be appealing to her, because every
riding school *requires* a rider to tack up their horse. In our most
recent experience, the stable owner had a trainer help her, but Senna
was still required to do some of the work with a brand new horse. She
finally decided she couldn't face that fear every week.
We're hoping and looking to find a riding instructor even a little
like Mary (I think she's one a kind). Even a place where Senna can go
and hang with the horses to feel comfortable (liability issues will
probably take precedence, though). Otherwise, it might need to wait
until we find friends with a horse, or we're in the position to have
land and a horse of her own. It seems to me that this situation might
not be happening at all now, if Senna hadn't been expected, cajoled,
encouraged and in fact, told to overcome her natural fear.
Robin B.
plaidpanties666
> "I want my children to back off from something or someone of they feelPeople experience fear differently and move from fear to excitement or thrill or some other emotion differently. I've found that people who move easily from fear to excitement don't always realize that others don't have the same process. Its not something pathological, necessarily, its a difference in wiring, a different set of reactions.
> fear and it just does not feel right to them."
>
> Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
> a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
> for the first time? Loads of things involve fear. Fear never feels
> right. My heartbeat goes up, I get shaky. There are other things that
> tempt me beyond it.
I sometimes freeze up from fear. This is very inconvenient when I'm at, for instance, the top of three tiers of scaffolding and need to get down. Sometimes that first moment of swinging out over the edge is too much, and I sit down on the scaffold and breath for awhile until the fear ebbs to a manageable level. Its harder for me when people are watching, although I know others for whom the opposite is true - my coworker, Alex for instance. He can push past fear if there's someone to show off for. I don't so much push past fear when I'm alone as experience so much less of it that its just data - a reminder that what I'm doing is dangerous. Its not exciting to me, though, its still fear.
My coworker and I talked about fear one day and he was shocked when I told him how I experience fear, about the wall of white that descends across my vision and I'm nearly paralyzed. He's never felt that. I've never felt fear turn to excitement, although I've felt it turn to fury when someone has really pushed me. I don't like that, because when I'm that angry, I'll disregard my own safety and that of others. That's not healthy!
I've done a few different kinds of public speaking, and had similar experiences there. I don't mean I do better when I'm alone (sort of defeats the point) but that I'm less fearful when I'm not so aware of myself. When I can focus on other people - the class or audience - bring them into what I'm doing, then the fear is background noise.
Learning something in front of another person is excruciating for me. Its hard for me to be anything other than frozen. I've developed strategies for that, found ways to shift my focus away from myself when I want to learn something *from* another person but those strategies depend on other people playing along. There were things I couldn't learn as a child because adults would coax and push and I'd fall apart, but as an adult I can learn them because I'm very good at telling other adults where my boundaries are.
I'm very protective of my kids' boundaries, especially Mo's since adults (and sometimes kids) try to cross her boundaries, coax her or push her or try to engage her when she doesn't want to be engaged. She doesn't need that kind of "help". She already has strategies for moving past her fears, expanding her comfort zone. I've seen her do it with groups of people, with "scary" movies, walking in the dark, spiders, and learning new things. She's a different person with different experiences than mine, and I can't speak to her experience of fear, but it doesn't stop her. Fear may be a limit but in her unschooling life limits are, many times, puzzles to solve. She knows she doesn't have to figure out how to deal with fear all at once any more than she needed to figure out how to read in one day, or learn to ride a bike in one day.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
down the basement stairs if the basement light was off. I knew there
wasn't a good reason to feel nervous. (We lived in a very safe
neighborhood.) I even several times forced myself to cross the
basement in the dark to use the light switch on the other side of the
room in hopes I'd overcome the feeling but that didn't work. Logic and
experience weren't lacking yet the fear was there. Had someone decided
I needed to overcome it, it would have stressed me to keep facing that
fear to no purpose and I would have felt like there was something
wrong with me.
What worked was time. After 4 years of college the feeling was gone.
I can't say that's what most kids experience when they fear the dark
but I think it's respectful to not assume they're broken and some well
meaning adult can fix them.
ability to conquer it but she failed. Which is the kind of thinking
that will get in the way of supporting who kids are. I needed to
mature, not be pushed (by myself or someone else.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The dark?Right up through high school I had a creepy feeling when going up or
down the basement stairs if the basement light was off. I knew there
wasn't a good reason to feel nervous. (We lived in a very safe
neighborhood.) I even several times forced myself to cross the
basement in the dark to use the light switch on the other side of the
room in hopes I'd overcome the feeling but that didn't work. Logic and
experience weren't lacking yet the fear was there. Had someone decided
I needed to overcome it, it would have stressed me to keep facing that
fear to no purpose and I would have felt like there was something
wrong with me.
What worked was time. After 4 years of college the feeling was gone.
I can't say that's what most kids experience when they fear the dark
but I think it's respectful to not assume they're broken and some well
meaning adult can fix them.
> "Okay, so she couldn't conquer her fear".There's built into that statement the assumption that she had the
ability to conquer it but she failed. Which is the kind of thinking
that will get in the way of supporting who kids are. I needed to
mature, not be pushed (by myself or someone else.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-That's also applicable to a boy's life. And it is a really
important understanding to have when unschooling. Trusting your
children's interests or lack of interests to be valuable and true. Not
undermining what they think of themselves or what they believe
themselves capable of by coming in and pushing them beyond what they
want to do or limiting them within what you think is best for them. -=-
Marty really wanted to to the Junior Police Academy when he was 14.
It was the last year he was eligible. I figured out how to get him
admitted, and he was in. We had bought the uniform (a t-shirt with
his last name embroidered, and a cap) and it was Sunday night before
it was to start. He "got cold feet," as the saying goes. He said he
didn't want to go and then he was embarrassed about that, and so was
just generally going every direction inside.
I could have talked and talked and talked, but I figured more than
anything he needed to sleep. So I said in the morning if he still
didn't want to go, he didn't have to.
In the morning he was still afraid, but didn't want to say absolutely
no. So I said I'll make your lunch (there were rules and
specifications on the lunch), and it's okay if you decide not to go.
Then I said "Let's drive over there and see if you feel different when
you get there," and so I was willing to let him back out at any point
along the way.
My dad might have done that for me, but my mom was always the kid-
interaction person. My mom would have been angry with me Sunday night
and said "decide right now," or just said "Then you're not going," and
she wouldn't have discussed it or let me change my mind. I didn't
want to be my mother.
I also felt that this was such a big deal to Marty I shouldn't let him
give up easily. I went to a lot of trouble to make sure he wasn't
going to regret not having gone.
He went and loved every bit of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
important understanding to have when unschooling. Trusting your
children's interests or lack of interests to be valuable and true. Not
undermining what they think of themselves or what they believe
themselves capable of by coming in and pushing them beyond what they
want to do or limiting them within what you think is best for them. -=-
Marty really wanted to to the Junior Police Academy when he was 14.
It was the last year he was eligible. I figured out how to get him
admitted, and he was in. We had bought the uniform (a t-shirt with
his last name embroidered, and a cap) and it was Sunday night before
it was to start. He "got cold feet," as the saying goes. He said he
didn't want to go and then he was embarrassed about that, and so was
just generally going every direction inside.
I could have talked and talked and talked, but I figured more than
anything he needed to sleep. So I said in the morning if he still
didn't want to go, he didn't have to.
In the morning he was still afraid, but didn't want to say absolutely
no. So I said I'll make your lunch (there were rules and
specifications on the lunch), and it's okay if you decide not to go.
Then I said "Let's drive over there and see if you feel different when
you get there," and so I was willing to let him back out at any point
along the way.
My dad might have done that for me, but my mom was always the kid-
interaction person. My mom would have been angry with me Sunday night
and said "decide right now," or just said "Then you're not going," and
she wouldn't have discussed it or let me change my mind. I didn't
want to be my mother.
I also felt that this was such a big deal to Marty I shouldn't let him
give up easily. I went to a lot of trouble to make sure he wasn't
going to regret not having gone.
He went and loved every bit of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
with him? I don't think you mean to say that but the discussions
should help parents respect who their kids are not make
generalizations about how kids are. Respecting a child's no is a
useful tool for parents of daring kids and kids who like to spend a
lot of time assessing situations. But saying kids in general see
themselves as heroes means the kids who hang back have something
lacking. And perhaps, such a statement implies, need pushing to meet
the norm.
pushing their boundaries. I suspect staying in their comfort zone
minimizes stress.
handle on what they've been able to do in the past. What's different
for kids is kids' boundaries keep changing! They have years of
experience knowing that what they couldn't do last week they might be
able to do this week. That's very different from not having a clue.
unschooling parents stuck is focusing on what it's good for a child to
do. With that thought in their heads it's hard to let go of the
question of how to get the child to do what's good for them.
Great mathematicians have done a lot of math. How do you get a child
to do a lot of math? Great chess players have played a lot of chess so
how do you get a child to play a lot of chess so they can be good too?
Great adventurers have pushed past their fears so how do you get a
child to push past their fears so they have the opportunity to be a
great adventurer if they want?
For the most part people become great not because they're focused on
slogging through what they need to become great but because they're
driven by what they're experiencing all along the way. There are
studies that say it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to be a
master at something. Chess is a good example. But someone voluntarily
pursuing 10,000 hours of chess matches can't be duplicated by pushing
someone through 10,000 hours of chess matches. It's not the hours
alone but the internal drive that draws someone through those hours
that counts. That drive can't be substituted by a parent pushing.
Unschooling parents need to let go of looking at the path and focus on
their kids. What helps unschooling is supporting whatever kids are
driven to do and not driving kids to do what's good for people to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Children are more likely to think ofLots of kids do. If a child isn't like that, is there something wrong
> themselves as the heroes and be excited about the things they did
with him? I don't think you mean to say that but the discussions
should help parents respect who their kids are not make
generalizations about how kids are. Respecting a child's no is a
useful tool for parents of daring kids and kids who like to spend a
lot of time assessing situations. But saying kids in general see
themselves as heroes means the kids who hang back have something
lacking. And perhaps, such a statement implies, need pushing to meet
the norm.
> I have observed inYes, it surprises me when I hear of adults trying new things and
> adults this desire to know already everything about themselves, which
> I have not observed in children.
pushing their boundaries. I suspect staying in their comfort zone
minimizes stress.
> They are used to finding out newWhoa. After 5, 6, 10 years of experiencing life, kids have a good
> things about themselves all the time and know very well they don't
> have a clue on many things they can or can't handle.
handle on what they've been able to do in the past. What's different
for kids is kids' boundaries keep changing! They have years of
experience knowing that what they couldn't do last week they might be
able to do this week. That's very different from not having a clue.
> I don't recall saying orHere's some:
> implying anywhere anything beyond creating comfort around their fears,
> which is not the same thing as they 'should' so something.
> In our experience, it is a common factor ofThis is all about what's good for a person to do. What gets
> stretching boundaries - becoming aware of the uncertainty of the
> desired new
> experience and learning to adapt. I think it is a valuable learning
> for life
> whether it is about rules or adventure.
>
> I don't think it is important to deny comfort for learning, but I do
> think
> that it is healthy to go beyond absolute comfort when one finds
> something
> interesting. It is what enables us to be functional in anything that
> isn't
> solely focused on us.
unschooling parents stuck is focusing on what it's good for a child to
do. With that thought in their heads it's hard to let go of the
question of how to get the child to do what's good for them.
Great mathematicians have done a lot of math. How do you get a child
to do a lot of math? Great chess players have played a lot of chess so
how do you get a child to play a lot of chess so they can be good too?
Great adventurers have pushed past their fears so how do you get a
child to push past their fears so they have the opportunity to be a
great adventurer if they want?
For the most part people become great not because they're focused on
slogging through what they need to become great but because they're
driven by what they're experiencing all along the way. There are
studies that say it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to be a
master at something. Chess is a good example. But someone voluntarily
pursuing 10,000 hours of chess matches can't be duplicated by pushing
someone through 10,000 hours of chess matches. It's not the hours
alone but the internal drive that draws someone through those hours
that counts. That drive can't be substituted by a parent pushing.
Unschooling parents need to let go of looking at the path and focus on
their kids. What helps unschooling is supporting whatever kids are
driven to do and not driving kids to do what's good for people to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Someone who was a guest conductor of the LA Philharmonic (I believe it
was) asked, at the end of the concert, for the musicians to raise
their hands if their parents made them take music lessons as kids.
Only one did.
Beth-=-
That's a powerful thing.
It would've been interesting (but depressing) if he had asked the
audience to raise their hands if they had been made to take music
lessons, and then leave their hand up if they still owned an
instrument, and then up if they still played regularly. :-/
Too many people see "playing an instrument" as a school activity, to
be abandoned after high school or college.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Someone who was a guest conductor of the LA Philharmonic (I believe it
was) asked, at the end of the concert, for the musicians to raise
their hands if their parents made them take music lessons as kids.
Only one did.
Beth-=-
That's a powerful thing.
It would've been interesting (but depressing) if he had asked the
audience to raise their hands if they had been made to take music
lessons, and then leave their hand up if they still owned an
instrument, and then up if they still played regularly. :-/
Too many people see "playing an instrument" as a school activity, to
be abandoned after high school or college.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-"I want my children to back off from something or someone of they
feel
fear and it just does not feel right to them."
-=-Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
for the first time?-=-
OF COURSE! If any of those don't feel right, the person should stay
away from them. Magnificent thunderstorms have killed people. I've
walked out into them MANY times, in the glorious late summer of New
Mexico. I used to go and sit in a puddle behind my house and feel the
slight electrical charge in the air, when I was ten, eleven years
old. I was in danger of feeling a LARGE electrical charge and never
feeling anything else again. Lightning struck a big cottonwood tree
just past the edge of our property, and the heart of it burned.
I don't mind if my kids want to go out in a storm. I never EVER
pressure anyone to stay out who wants to go in, though.
No one should have to speak in public, or be in pitch darkness, or be
in danger of losing their way. Those who are adventurous should do as
much as they want to do without pressuring or shaming anyone else who
is more cautious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feel
fear and it just does not feel right to them."
-=-Public speaking? Adventure sports? The dark? Losing their way? Asking
a girl out on a date? Climbing a tree? Magnificent thunderstorm? Sex
for the first time?-=-
OF COURSE! If any of those don't feel right, the person should stay
away from them. Magnificent thunderstorms have killed people. I've
walked out into them MANY times, in the glorious late summer of New
Mexico. I used to go and sit in a puddle behind my house and feel the
slight electrical charge in the air, when I was ten, eleven years
old. I was in danger of feeling a LARGE electrical charge and never
feeling anything else again. Lightning struck a big cottonwood tree
just past the edge of our property, and the heart of it burned.
I don't mind if my kids want to go out in a storm. I never EVER
pressure anyone to stay out who wants to go in, though.
No one should have to speak in public, or be in pitch darkness, or be
in danger of losing their way. Those who are adventurous should do as
much as they want to do without pressuring or shaming anyone else who
is more cautious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think there is any intended harm toward the child in
activities where the fear is pretty evident - I could fall, hurt
myself, be unable to do this..... the causes are right there and not
inexplicable fears that we are powerless to do anything about.-=-
First, that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's way more words than idea.
Second, it could apply to school. There isn't intended harm toward
children in school.
If an activity has more in common with school than with unschooling,
let's not discuss or defend or analyze it on this list.
Sandra the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
activities where the fear is pretty evident - I could fall, hurt
myself, be unable to do this..... the causes are right there and not
inexplicable fears that we are powerless to do anything about.-=-
First, that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's way more words than idea.
Second, it could apply to school. There isn't intended harm toward
children in school.
If an activity has more in common with school than with unschooling,
let's not discuss or defend or analyze it on this list.
Sandra the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Most kids I know are curious. I don't think
many of them would be depressed by something like this. -=-
Whoa! You're the one who used the term "depressed." And it was used
as a insult to a piece of information offered by the mother of three
grown, unschooled girls. The mother of one infant boy doesn't get to
go head-to-head, informationally, with someone whose three daughters
are really wonderful examples of what unschooling can be and do.
-="Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
-=-That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. -=-
No one else is talking about "theory."
It is a FACT that someone not learning what she can handle, or where
her comfort level is, can be abused--emotionally, psychologically,
physically. Rape isn't theory. It's not strong, confidnt girls who
are the likeliest victims, either. It's the girls who are afraid to
say "NO, no way; I don't like you, I'm not going out with you, no I
don't want another drink, no I would rather call my parents for a
ride..."
It's not depressing for someone to remind the readers of the Always
Learning list that pushing children past their comfort zone and their
confidence and their safety is dangerous. Not theoretically
dangerous. Dangerous to their self-esteem, to their physical safety,
and to their learning. Dangerous to the relationship between the
parents and the children.
-=MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate.-=-
And you went to school.
Unschoolers who are NOT treated in the way school kids are find that
they are VERY in touch with what they can handle.
-=- I have observed in
adults this desire to know already everything about themselves, which
I have not observed in children. They are used to finding out new
things about themselves all the time and know very well they don't
have a clue on many things they can or can't handle.-=-
I would say "What?" but I don't want any more of the explanation. It
doesn't make much sense.
I have observed in my own children the desire to understand more about
themselves, in all aspects of their lives. If you have never observed
any children with the desire to know about themselves, you should
probably stop writing about children.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
You're not waiting. You're not watching. You're writing with all the
enthusiasm of someone who came here to show us all theerror of our
ways, and as you have no experience with unschooling, it's getting
tiresome.
-=-There is no 'should' involved in this story, nor is there any
mistrust
implied. -=-
Perhaps you can't read your own words as well as others can, then.
-=-In fact, it is a trust in the child's ability to consider out
something new - they key word being consider. -=-
No, it is NOT trust in the child's ability "to consider out something
new" (PLEASE proofread your posts).
If the non-parent facilitator (often known as "teacher") argues with a
child about what the child should want or do or consider, that is NOT
trust in the child's ability.
-=-I don't recall saying or
implying anywhere anything beyond creating comfort around their fears,
which is not the same thing as they 'should' so something. I have also
said that their desire may change, and "if the desire exists". I don't
know why this particular interpretation was formed and reacted so
strongly to.-=-
If you don't recall, you can always read every post you've made by
clicking the link at the bottom of any e-mail that says Messages in
this topic
If you're not reading by e-mail, you're already IN the thread. Don't
defend a bad position by asking all of us to read it again and prove
you said it.
I KNOW you don't know why people are reacting strongly. That is a
sign that you haven't read the list long enough to be posting as much
as you're posting.
Sandra
many of them would be depressed by something like this. -=-
Whoa! You're the one who used the term "depressed." And it was used
as a insult to a piece of information offered by the mother of three
grown, unschooled girls. The mother of one infant boy doesn't get to
go head-to-head, informationally, with someone whose three daughters
are really wonderful examples of what unschooling can be and do.
-="Think of the lesson learned. "My sense of what I can handle isn't
accurate." "If I'm uncomfortable about doing something, I should do it
anyway." "Don't trust myself." Apply those thoughts to other things
that might come up in a girl's life."
-=-That is one way of looking at it. It is quite depressing an
interpretation, and I have rarely seen this happen in real life,
though it is not impossible in theory. -=-
No one else is talking about "theory."
It is a FACT that someone not learning what she can handle, or where
her comfort level is, can be abused--emotionally, psychologically,
physically. Rape isn't theory. It's not strong, confidnt girls who
are the likeliest victims, either. It's the girls who are afraid to
say "NO, no way; I don't like you, I'm not going out with you, no I
don't want another drink, no I would rather call my parents for a
ride..."
It's not depressing for someone to remind the readers of the Always
Learning list that pushing children past their comfort zone and their
confidence and their safety is dangerous. Not theoretically
dangerous. Dangerous to their self-esteem, to their physical safety,
and to their learning. Dangerous to the relationship between the
parents and the children.
-=MY sense of what I can handle ISN'T accurate.-=-
And you went to school.
Unschoolers who are NOT treated in the way school kids are find that
they are VERY in touch with what they can handle.
-=- I have observed in
adults this desire to know already everything about themselves, which
I have not observed in children. They are used to finding out new
things about themselves all the time and know very well they don't
have a clue on many things they can or can't handle.-=-
I would say "What?" but I don't want any more of the explanation. It
doesn't make much sense.
I have observed in my own children the desire to understand more about
themselves, in all aspects of their lives. If you have never observed
any children with the desire to know about themselves, you should
probably stop writing about children.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
You're not waiting. You're not watching. You're writing with all the
enthusiasm of someone who came here to show us all theerror of our
ways, and as you have no experience with unschooling, it's getting
tiresome.
-=-There is no 'should' involved in this story, nor is there any
mistrust
implied. -=-
Perhaps you can't read your own words as well as others can, then.
-=-In fact, it is a trust in the child's ability to consider out
something new - they key word being consider. -=-
No, it is NOT trust in the child's ability "to consider out something
new" (PLEASE proofread your posts).
If the non-parent facilitator (often known as "teacher") argues with a
child about what the child should want or do or consider, that is NOT
trust in the child's ability.
-=-I don't recall saying or
implying anywhere anything beyond creating comfort around their fears,
which is not the same thing as they 'should' so something. I have also
said that their desire may change, and "if the desire exists". I don't
know why this particular interpretation was formed and reacted so
strongly to.-=-
If you don't recall, you can always read every post you've made by
clicking the link at the bottom of any e-mail that says Messages in
this topic
If you're not reading by e-mail, you're already IN the thread. Don't
defend a bad position by asking all of us to read it again and prove
you said it.
I KNOW you don't know why people are reacting strongly. That is a
sign that you haven't read the list long enough to be posting as much
as you're posting.
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
***How frustrating it is for parents who want to open the doors to and
pave the paths to brilliance for their kids to hear that kids need to
choose to pursue the paths themselves. Parents want to *do* something,
but really all they can do is supply opportunities, support for who
the child is, support for what interests them and genes :-)***
YES! This applies to unschoolers and schoolers alike! If any parent could see that, even IF they force school, kids would be so much less stressed! I truly believe that! I see it so clearly, in a large part because I read about unschooling, but also because my own parents were this way too even while forcing school.
Kids will, ultimately, do what they want to. How that looks by the time they reach adulthood, parents can *do* something about! There is a very common misperception among many parents, that if they push and poke and prod, even kindly, that they will have at least tried to create brilliance, when it so clearly doesn't work. What DOES work is creating an environment that happily supports kids, that empowers them to feel as if they CAN, and then actively helpkids open doors to get there.
I see so many parents force and force and when it doesn't work, they apply more force. Any mechanic can tell you that doesn't work! There's a point in which too much force will break the part and do way more damage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pave the paths to brilliance for their kids to hear that kids need to
choose to pursue the paths themselves. Parents want to *do* something,
but really all they can do is supply opportunities, support for who
the child is, support for what interests them and genes :-)***
YES! This applies to unschoolers and schoolers alike! If any parent could see that, even IF they force school, kids would be so much less stressed! I truly believe that! I see it so clearly, in a large part because I read about unschooling, but also because my own parents were this way too even while forcing school.
Kids will, ultimately, do what they want to. How that looks by the time they reach adulthood, parents can *do* something about! There is a very common misperception among many parents, that if they push and poke and prod, even kindly, that they will have at least tried to create brilliance, when it so clearly doesn't work. What DOES work is creating an environment that happily supports kids, that empowers them to feel as if they CAN, and then actively helpkids open doors to get there.
I see so many parents force and force and when it doesn't work, they apply more force. Any mechanic can tell you that doesn't work! There's a point in which too much force will break the part and do way more damage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]