Standardized tests
[email protected]
Odd subject for this list, I know.
My homeschool group is actively talking about this subject a lot these days.
I think Zoe, 12, is interested in taking some kind of test. She has a good
friend who is doing accelerated work in many areas and has already taken a
bunch of tests. I am totally uninterested in her taking any sort of test
ever. But if she really wants to? And if I know she's thinking about it, is
it wise to give her the info about these tests? We've talked about it some -
I stress how the tests are limited sources of information.
I want to do what she wants, but I fear that having a numerical score will
leave an indelible "feeling" in her about her intelligence.
Whaddya think?
Paula
My homeschool group is actively talking about this subject a lot these days.
I think Zoe, 12, is interested in taking some kind of test. She has a good
friend who is doing accelerated work in many areas and has already taken a
bunch of tests. I am totally uninterested in her taking any sort of test
ever. But if she really wants to? And if I know she's thinking about it, is
it wise to give her the info about these tests? We've talked about it some -
I stress how the tests are limited sources of information.
I want to do what she wants, but I fear that having a numerical score will
leave an indelible "feeling" in her about her intelligence.
Whaddya think?
Paula
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/01 3:31:12 PM Mountain Standard Time, sjogy@...
writes:
what they purport to do. One is a reading test where the letters aren't real
letters. (That one's more about reading and decoding.) One is an oldie but
maybe still available, about cultural literacy--questions which WON'T be on
the test, but could have been--about Midwestern farming, and inner-city
knowledge.
I remember there being a section on a test once about subway schedules or
some such. I lived in a town without even a taxi, let alone a bus or train.
I'm not sure how to find them, but would start with google.com and maybe
enter something like tests about testing and see what pops up.
If you discuss some of the arguments against it, and maybe show her the worst
of some of the "believers" (people who argue with a lawyer to get into a
gifted class, or Mensa folk who will only marry within "their IQ" and believe
anything not tested on the SAT isn't real) it will help keep her from taking
it as seriously as some do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
>There are some tests given to teachers to demonstrate that tests don't do
> I want to do what she wants, but I fear that having a numerical score will
> leave an indelible "feeling" in her about her intelligence.
>
what they purport to do. One is a reading test where the letters aren't real
letters. (That one's more about reading and decoding.) One is an oldie but
maybe still available, about cultural literacy--questions which WON'T be on
the test, but could have been--about Midwestern farming, and inner-city
knowledge.
I remember there being a section on a test once about subway schedules or
some such. I lived in a town without even a taxi, let alone a bus or train.
I'm not sure how to find them, but would start with google.com and maybe
enter something like tests about testing and see what pops up.
If you discuss some of the arguments against it, and maybe show her the worst
of some of the "believers" (people who argue with a lawyer to get into a
gifted class, or Mensa folk who will only marry within "their IQ" and believe
anything not tested on the SAT isn't real) it will help keep her from taking
it as seriously as some do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KT
> There are some tests given to teachers to demonstrate that testsThe new superintendent of Memphis City Schools refused to take the
> don't do
> what they purport to do.
Gateway test (algebra) that all 8th graders are required to pass in
order to graduate in 4 years.
He said, "If the superintendent of Memphis City Schools didn't score
100%...that would be on every radio talk show in this city."
Karen
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/01 5:35:40 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< If you discuss some of the arguments against it, and maybe show her the
worst
of some of the "believers" (people who argue with a lawyer to get into a
gifted class, or Mensa folk who will only marry within "their IQ" and believe
anything not tested on the SAT isn't real) it will help keep her from taking
it as seriously as some do. >>
We have talked about this and she says she won't take it too seriously, but
she is a pretty serious person. So if your kids really wanted tests, you'd
give 'em?
p.
<< If you discuss some of the arguments against it, and maybe show her the
worst
of some of the "believers" (people who argue with a lawyer to get into a
gifted class, or Mensa folk who will only marry within "their IQ" and believe
anything not tested on the SAT isn't real) it will help keep her from taking
it as seriously as some do. >>
We have talked about this and she says she won't take it too seriously, but
she is a pretty serious person. So if your kids really wanted tests, you'd
give 'em?
p.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2001 3:59:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, sjogy@...
writes:
to-do list.
I wouldn't want her to think that I didn't want her to take it because I
thought she might not do well, though, because that would make her think that
it actually MEANT something to me. So I'd try to be casual (and forgetful)
about it.
FairTest.org is a great place to get good info about the problems with
standardized testing.
Also - I'd try buying the test myself and just let her take it - not send it
out to be graded, etc. There are some books in the regular bookstores that
have tests - just buy one of those since it has the grading key in it.
They're usually in the study skills section of the bookstore but I noticed
that here in California they've moved the SAT9 (CA's statewide standardized
test) stuff into the children's section. So - you could just let her use a
sample test. It might satisfy her curiousity.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> We have talked about this and she says she won't take it too seriously, butI would. But I'm a procrastinator and this sure wouldn't be at the top of my
> she is a pretty serious person. So if your kids really wanted tests, you'd
> give 'em?
to-do list.
I wouldn't want her to think that I didn't want her to take it because I
thought she might not do well, though, because that would make her think that
it actually MEANT something to me. So I'd try to be casual (and forgetful)
about it.
FairTest.org is a great place to get good info about the problems with
standardized testing.
Also - I'd try buying the test myself and just let her take it - not send it
out to be graded, etc. There are some books in the regular bookstores that
have tests - just buy one of those since it has the grading key in it.
They're usually in the study skills section of the bookstore but I noticed
that here in California they've moved the SAT9 (CA's statewide standardized
test) stuff into the children's section. So - you could just let her use a
sample test. It might satisfy her curiousity.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 12/11/01 2:27 PM, sjogy@... at sjogy@... wrote:
"third grade." He's 11, and should be in 5th, right? He was very upset.
He's talked a lot about doing school at home, and I've left it up to him to
figure out the curriculum :-)
The other has to do with IQ testing. When I was very young, our next door
neighbor was a psych major. As part of a project, he tested me, my sister
and brother, and my mom and dad. My mom would never say *exactly* what our
scores were, just that dad was lowest and she and the kids were all above
145. She liked that. (Dad was soon out of the picture, btw.) I lived in
the shadow of that number all my life; I got the "she's not working up to
her potential" comment on my report cards. I never understood why school
wasn't easy for me if I was so smart.
I took an online IQ test the other day (the Internet is a *dangerous*
thing!). My score was 113. I'm very happy with that, because now I'm
working WAY above my potential <ggg>
I also quickly realized how those kinds of tests fail. A young child is
given a different type of test, right? Not "answer these written questions
in 22 seconds each." As an adult, I have years of conditioning behind me.
I blanch at tests, particularly timed ones. I have years of terror, brought
on by math word problems, or those logic problems about who is taller if
Roger is shortest and his brother is taller than George, you know? And those
ones that want you to figure out what goes next in a sequence -- I can
always find other things but never the one they want.
I've been schooled into stupidity. School lowered my IQ. <g>
Nancy
--
I really don't understand the theory that kids need an
"opportunity" to live like savages so they can be properly socialized.
They can learn the same lessons in the safety of their homes by reading
"Lord of the Flies."
-- a homeschooling mom
> I want to do what she wants, but I fear that having a numerical score willTwo things. Alex took some online test which rated his grade level as
> leave an indelible "feeling" in her about her intelligence.
"third grade." He's 11, and should be in 5th, right? He was very upset.
He's talked a lot about doing school at home, and I've left it up to him to
figure out the curriculum :-)
The other has to do with IQ testing. When I was very young, our next door
neighbor was a psych major. As part of a project, he tested me, my sister
and brother, and my mom and dad. My mom would never say *exactly* what our
scores were, just that dad was lowest and she and the kids were all above
145. She liked that. (Dad was soon out of the picture, btw.) I lived in
the shadow of that number all my life; I got the "she's not working up to
her potential" comment on my report cards. I never understood why school
wasn't easy for me if I was so smart.
I took an online IQ test the other day (the Internet is a *dangerous*
thing!). My score was 113. I'm very happy with that, because now I'm
working WAY above my potential <ggg>
I also quickly realized how those kinds of tests fail. A young child is
given a different type of test, right? Not "answer these written questions
in 22 seconds each." As an adult, I have years of conditioning behind me.
I blanch at tests, particularly timed ones. I have years of terror, brought
on by math word problems, or those logic problems about who is taller if
Roger is shortest and his brother is taller than George, you know? And those
ones that want you to figure out what goes next in a sequence -- I can
always find other things but never the one they want.
I've been schooled into stupidity. School lowered my IQ. <g>
Nancy
--
I really don't understand the theory that kids need an
"opportunity" to live like savages so they can be properly socialized.
They can learn the same lessons in the safety of their homes by reading
"Lord of the Flies."
-- a homeschooling mom
Elizabeth Hill
>Hi, Paula --
>
> We have talked about this and she says she won't take it too
> seriously, but
> she is a pretty serious person. So if your kids really wanted tests,
> you'd
> give 'em?
What about just getting something like an SAT test prep book and messing
with the tests in there? Even though the age level isn't right, I might
prefer messing around to formally administering a test. But I'm
assumingher purpose is just curiousity about standardized tests. If
your daughter really, really wants to "measure" herself, then I don't
know what to suggest.
There was a book written last year (I think) about the reasons the SAT
test was created and popularized. There was a flurry of magazine
articles on the topic as well. You and your daughter could find it
interesting to know more about this topic. I think it would help see
the whole thing as more strange than scientific.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/01 8:46:17 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< If
your daughter really, really wants to "measure" herself, then I don't
know what to suggest. >>
Sadly, this is what she wants.
I like Pam's suggestion about being forgetful, which is what I am anyway
<gg>. The reason I bring it up now is that my group may administer a test to
a bunch of kids at once. So she's going to hear about this from other kids
and may want to do it.
Zoe is very linear. She likes to do every page in workbooks, and she likes
textbooks. She loves to take classes and would fill every day up to the brim
if we had the time and money. She wants to go to college ASAP and plans on
taking community college classes as soon as she is able. (Luckily, Quinn is
the complete opposite or I might think that old schooliness was rubbing off
from me <g>.) She's the kid we homeschool because she would be such a "good
girl" in school.
Think I will get a practice test and see if that satisfies her somehow.
Thanks all.
Paula
<< If
your daughter really, really wants to "measure" herself, then I don't
know what to suggest. >>
Sadly, this is what she wants.
I like Pam's suggestion about being forgetful, which is what I am anyway
<gg>. The reason I bring it up now is that my group may administer a test to
a bunch of kids at once. So she's going to hear about this from other kids
and may want to do it.
Zoe is very linear. She likes to do every page in workbooks, and she likes
textbooks. She loves to take classes and would fill every day up to the brim
if we had the time and money. She wants to go to college ASAP and plans on
taking community college classes as soon as she is able. (Luckily, Quinn is
the complete opposite or I might think that old schooliness was rubbing off
from me <g>.) She's the kid we homeschool because she would be such a "good
girl" in school.
Think I will get a practice test and see if that satisfies her somehow.
Thanks all.
Paula
Pam Hartley
You could do it another way -- buy every single test you can possibly lay
your hands on and sit down with her and show her how to take tests. As a
former good girl <g> I am sure you remember. ;)
This gives her some insight on a necessary (if she's determined on college,
and some tests crop up in real life, too) skill, and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test", too, because she can see how they're
constructed, their inherent flaws, the little tricks available even when you
don't know the answers, etc.
Part of this can include watching game shows with her. "Who Wants to Be A
Millionaire" is an excellent multiple-choice test opportunity. :)
Pam
----------
From: sjogy@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Standardized tests
Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001, 6:31 AM
Zoe is very linear. She likes to do every page in workbooks, and she likes
textbooks. She loves to take classes and would fill every day up to the brim
if we had the time and money. She wants to go to college ASAP and plans on
taking community college classes as soon as she is able.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your hands on and sit down with her and show her how to take tests. As a
former good girl <g> I am sure you remember. ;)
This gives her some insight on a necessary (if she's determined on college,
and some tests crop up in real life, too) skill, and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test", too, because she can see how they're
constructed, their inherent flaws, the little tricks available even when you
don't know the answers, etc.
Part of this can include watching game shows with her. "Who Wants to Be A
Millionaire" is an excellent multiple-choice test opportunity. :)
Pam
----------
From: sjogy@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Standardized tests
Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001, 6:31 AM
Zoe is very linear. She likes to do every page in workbooks, and she likes
textbooks. She loves to take classes and would fill every day up to the brim
if we had the time and money. She wants to go to college ASAP and plans on
taking community college classes as soon as she is able.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 12:46:33 PM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< You could do it another way -- buy every single test you can possibly lay
your hands on and sit down with her and show her how to take tests. As a
former good girl <g> I am sure you remember. ;)
This gives her some insight on a necessary (if she's determined on college,
and some tests crop up in real life, too) skill, and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test", too, because she can see how they're
constructed, their inherent flaws, the little tricks available even when you
don't know the answers, etc. >>
PamIam, you're a genius!
Paula
<< You could do it another way -- buy every single test you can possibly lay
your hands on and sit down with her and show her how to take tests. As a
former good girl <g> I am sure you remember. ;)
This gives her some insight on a necessary (if she's determined on college,
and some tests crop up in real life, too) skill, and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test", too, because she can see how they're
constructed, their inherent flaws, the little tricks available even when you
don't know the answers, etc. >>
PamIam, you're a genius!
Paula
Pam Hartley
Yeah, so the tests used to say.
Just kidding, I flop on IQ tests. ;)
Pam
----------
From: sjogy@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Standardized tests
Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001, 10:58 AM
PamIam, you're a genius!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just kidding, I flop on IQ tests. ;)
Pam
----------
From: sjogy@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Standardized tests
Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001, 10:58 AM
PamIam, you're a genius!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 11:46:30 AM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test" >>
Juju is as juju does.
Tests can give people diarrhea (sp? I give...) and there's some power.
And the scores can make or break a future. And all for just being a lame
little number. If that's not juju, transubstantiation ain't either.
(Hahahaha.)
<<Part of this can include watching game shows with her. "Who Wants to Be A
Millionaire" is an excellent multiple-choice test opportunity. :)>>
And Family Feud--the question isn't what YOU think is a good answer, but what
you think a random 100 people said. It's akin to that giving the professor
what he wants/likes/believes instead of what you think is objectively right.
Sandra
<< and takes the (forgive me,
Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test" >>
Juju is as juju does.
Tests can give people diarrhea (sp? I give...) and there's some power.
And the scores can make or break a future. And all for just being a lame
little number. If that's not juju, transubstantiation ain't either.
(Hahahaha.)
<<Part of this can include watching game shows with her. "Who Wants to Be A
Millionaire" is an excellent multiple-choice test opportunity. :)>>
And Family Feud--the question isn't what YOU think is a good answer, but what
you think a random 100 people said. It's akin to that giving the professor
what he wants/likes/believes instead of what you think is objectively right.
Sandra
Karin
Forever after, from now on whenever I hear the word juju I will think of Sandra!
Karin
from unschooling.com MIL troubles
In a message dated 12/12/01 , SandraDodd@... writes:
Karin
from unschooling.com MIL troubles
In a message dated 12/12/01 , SandraDodd@... writes:
>>Juju is as juju does.<<[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dan Vilter
> You could do it another way -- buy every single test you can possibly layUnmasking the juju is only the first step. I would also take the time not
> your hands on and sit down with her and show her how to take tests. As a
> former good girl <g> I am sure you remember. ;)
>
> This gives her some insight on a necessary (if she's determined on college,
> and some tests crop up in real life, too) skill, and takes the (forgive me,
> Sandra <g>) juju away from "a test", too, because she can see how they're
> constructed, their inherent flaws, the little tricks available even when you
> don't know the answers, etc.
only to point out all the flaws of such tests, but who the *audience* for
these tests is. Who uses these scores? The politician and admissions officer
are the first easy targets for in depth discussion on there motivations, how
they are feed information, and what they do with your "data." How is it
used? By you? Your child? A boss? An administrator? A Lazy administrator?
What is assessment? What kind of assessment do these tests make? So who
made up these tests and why? I would think that a look at the
credentials of the people who put together whatever test your child wants to
take would show a mindset and pedagogy vastly different from you and your
daughter or son. I would also discuss how committees function and how
compromise affects the final product.
-Dan Vilter
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 7:23:21 AM, dvilter@... writes:
<< I would also discuss how committees function and how
compromise affects the final product. >>
Could you tell us more about this?
Paula
<< I would also discuss how committees function and how
compromise affects the final product. >>
Could you tell us more about this?
Paula
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 6:47:56 AM, sjogy@... writes:
<< << I would also discuss how committees function and how
compromise affects the final product. >>
non-standard students, so that someone with a good test score might be bumped
for someone from a foreign country, or who was alternatively educated, for
the "balance" and diversity bonus that the college gets.
Sandra
<< << I would also discuss how committees function and how
compromise affects the final product. >>
>>AND that many colleges have a reserved number or percentage of places for
non-standard students, so that someone with a good test score might be bumped
for someone from a foreign country, or who was alternatively educated, for
the "balance" and diversity bonus that the college gets.
Sandra
Dan Vilter
> << I would also discuss how committees function and howWhat is that quote? -A camel is a horse designed by committee-
> compromise affects the final product. >>
>
> Could you tell us more about this?
>
> Paula
The concept is that in order to get a committee, a group, to agree on nearly
anything there must be compromise by at least some of its members. So no
matter how good or noble or fair or insightful each member of the committee
is, their individual strength or vision will be weakened in some manner in
order to facilitate agreement. The final product is rarely as strong or
economical as the original idea.
For years I sat on the curriculum committee for a large university. With
each meeting I was amazed with how nearly every proposal got twisted and
changed to meet each members' concerns. On occasion the changes were so
great or subtly odd, the person initiating the proposal withdrew it because
they didn't recognize it any longer. Many of the changes were to make them
fit with the policies of the rest of the university. Others seemed to have
no logical basis and were often politically motivated. What ever the reason,
the committee seldom made the original idea more efficient and accurate.
These interactions are present in groups of all sizes. It should be easy to
illustrate this with your support or park day group. Where does the group of
adults sit? I'm sure everyone has some opinion on the sun or shade or
benches or chairs, the view of the park or distance the play equipment. How
does a group of your friends decide where to eat? Or how about any number
of daily decisions you and your spouse make for the family or each other.
-Dan Vilter
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/01 4:59:49 PM, sjogy@... writes:
<< So if your kids really wanted tests, you'd
give 'em? >>
I wouldn't. I'd tell them to wait until they were older and pay for and take
their own and keep me out of it.
Or I'd go to Title Wave (our local homeschooling-specialist bookstore) and
get some "prepare for the LSAT" or "...GRE" test books and give them those,
for intimidation factor. {LOL! I just now thought of that, but it's not a
bad idea... why start with ACT or PSAT instead of going right to the
grad-school stuff!?}
Sandra
<< So if your kids really wanted tests, you'd
give 'em? >>
I wouldn't. I'd tell them to wait until they were older and pay for and take
their own and keep me out of it.
Or I'd go to Title Wave (our local homeschooling-specialist bookstore) and
get some "prepare for the LSAT" or "...GRE" test books and give them those,
for intimidation factor. {LOL! I just now thought of that, but it's not a
bad idea... why start with ACT or PSAT instead of going right to the
grad-school stuff!?}
Sandra
Carol & Mac
And there was me thinking it was: "a kiwi is an eagle designed by a
committee" <bg>
Carol
in New Zealand
Dan Vilter wrote:
committee" <bg>
Carol
in New Zealand
Dan Vilter wrote:
> What is that quote? -A camel is a horse designed by committee-