dealing with kids who lie
Su Penn
How do you deal with kids who lie? I would really like to hear from other parents about this. Not your own kids--but your kids' friends. My kids have some friends who lie so consistently that the boys no longer believe what their friends say, and I have gotten skittish about saying things to the parents like, "So, little Octavian says you're going to Las Vegas next week!" because such things have so often turned out not to be true. I'm struggling with how to respond to the children, and also with how to talk to my kids about this.
Some of the lies seem to be face-saving lies. Eric beats a kid at a video game, so the kid tells Eric about how much better than Eric his brother is at that game. Or my kids mention an upcoming trip, and the friend tells a big story about the much bigger and better vacation he and his family are taking soon. Or a kid seems to want to cover up areas of ignorance, so confronted with, say, a video game he hasn't played before, he'll nonetheless make up a bunch of stuff about what happens in the higher levels (this is not exactly lying...it's something else, similar and part of a pattern of behavior but not quite the same). Caught out, he'll claim to have gotten the information from "a friend."
I know that lying is a common childhood thing, but in these cases it's a very consistent behavior that happens every time the kids are together. (About one of their friends, the quip about Clinton fits: "Every word out of his mouth is a lie, including 'and' and 'the.'") The boys have caught on to it to the point that they will say to me or David, "Octavian says he used to have a lot of really cool Legos, too, but he gave them away, but I'm not sure that's true." What do I tell the boys? Do I talk to them about the factors (like, in one case, economic disparity between homes) that might lead a child to lie like this? Do I counsel them to ignore lies because of the motives I think lie behind them, or to confront them?
in one case, the parents have been very helpful in talking about it, but it seems like some of the strategies that work for them (like asking mildly, "Is that something you know, or something you just think might be true, or something from your imagination?") don't work as well for me--I think this kid doesn't feel as safe with me, so he won't admit to having made something up if I ask that.
In another case, when I mentioned "Hey, your kid says this thing!" and it turned out not to be true, the parent was angry and indicated she would punish her child for the lie, and I don't want to get kids in trouble, God knows, for what I think are most likely adaptive but not all that functional responses to situations that are challenging for them.
In neither case is restricting visits a very good option right now. One of the kids is the son of my best friends, and he was only able to be taken out of school this year (which he desperately needed) because I agreed to keep him two days a week (we're down to one day a week now that his mom's job has ended for the summer), and there are a variety of reasons why, for the most part, I want the other one--a neighbor kid--to feel welcome at our home. The boys are not wanting less contact with their friends, at least not that they've told me.
I have a lot of sympathy for these kids but I am also frustrated and sometimes irritated, and just a few minutes ago there was a big fight when my kids challenged a friend and he got defensive.
I'm looking for any ideas people have; I just want to get outside my own head with this and get some new ideas to mull over.
Thanks,
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Some of the lies seem to be face-saving lies. Eric beats a kid at a video game, so the kid tells Eric about how much better than Eric his brother is at that game. Or my kids mention an upcoming trip, and the friend tells a big story about the much bigger and better vacation he and his family are taking soon. Or a kid seems to want to cover up areas of ignorance, so confronted with, say, a video game he hasn't played before, he'll nonetheless make up a bunch of stuff about what happens in the higher levels (this is not exactly lying...it's something else, similar and part of a pattern of behavior but not quite the same). Caught out, he'll claim to have gotten the information from "a friend."
I know that lying is a common childhood thing, but in these cases it's a very consistent behavior that happens every time the kids are together. (About one of their friends, the quip about Clinton fits: "Every word out of his mouth is a lie, including 'and' and 'the.'") The boys have caught on to it to the point that they will say to me or David, "Octavian says he used to have a lot of really cool Legos, too, but he gave them away, but I'm not sure that's true." What do I tell the boys? Do I talk to them about the factors (like, in one case, economic disparity between homes) that might lead a child to lie like this? Do I counsel them to ignore lies because of the motives I think lie behind them, or to confront them?
in one case, the parents have been very helpful in talking about it, but it seems like some of the strategies that work for them (like asking mildly, "Is that something you know, or something you just think might be true, or something from your imagination?") don't work as well for me--I think this kid doesn't feel as safe with me, so he won't admit to having made something up if I ask that.
In another case, when I mentioned "Hey, your kid says this thing!" and it turned out not to be true, the parent was angry and indicated she would punish her child for the lie, and I don't want to get kids in trouble, God knows, for what I think are most likely adaptive but not all that functional responses to situations that are challenging for them.
In neither case is restricting visits a very good option right now. One of the kids is the son of my best friends, and he was only able to be taken out of school this year (which he desperately needed) because I agreed to keep him two days a week (we're down to one day a week now that his mom's job has ended for the summer), and there are a variety of reasons why, for the most part, I want the other one--a neighbor kid--to feel welcome at our home. The boys are not wanting less contact with their friends, at least not that they've told me.
I have a lot of sympathy for these kids but I am also frustrated and sometimes irritated, and just a few minutes ago there was a big fight when my kids challenged a friend and he got defensive.
I'm looking for any ideas people have; I just want to get outside my own head with this and get some new ideas to mull over.
Thanks,
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
C Johnson
My children have several friends who do this. We call it telling "tall tales". My children are 13 and 10. We have discussed the reasons these children might do this to help them understand. I have also had a lot of discussions with my 13 yro daughter about picking your battles, because she cannot stand lying. The only time I say something is if they take their lie a little too far, like talking about riding a wild bison. I usually keep this between the other children and us because their parents punish them and I feel bad when this happens. So far the only time I have told a parent was when another child stole from my daughter and she caught her. I was worried about her stealing from other children and not being caught.
BB,
Chrissie
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BB,
Chrissie
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Robin Bentley
>Is it just economic disparity? Are there other reasons why these kids
> The boys have caught on to it to the point that they will say to me
> or David, "Octavian says he used to have a lot of really cool Legos,
> too, but he gave them away, but I'm not sure that's true." What do I
> tell the boys? Do I talk to them about the factors (like, in one
> case, economic disparity between homes) that might lead a child to
> lie like this? Do I counsel them to ignore lies because of the
> motives I think lie behind them, or to confront them?
>
might lie? To feel important or powerful? To gain some control? To
mitigate the lack of freedom they might have in their own homes? Do
their parents lie to them? This was the situation with my daughter's
friend. She was caught between her warring parents, her mother was
really controlling and wavered between outright lying and telling her
daughter the gruesome reality.
I think it's worth talking about those things with your kids. They
might have some good insights themselves on why they think these kids
are lying - you can discuss those ideas. Do you think there's reason
to be accepting of them, in spite of their lying?
You can even talk about when lying might be justified. There are real
reasons to lie. To protect someone else. To protect yourself. Talk
about that in terms of ethics and social behavior.
I'm not sure why you have to address this with the parents. Can you
explain why you felt that was necessary?
If you say "lying is unequivocally wrong" (and I'm not say you are),
that doesn't give kids much room to understand other people's
motivations for lying. Using that "Clinton quip" about friends is
pretty judgmental and harsh. And your kids are pretty young to
understand the Clinton context, anyway.
Maybe when your kids hear what they think is a lie, they should always
come to you, instead of challenging their friends. Challenging them
won't help. You might consider talking with these boys in a casual
way, sometime. Find out what's going on in their heads without
directly addressing the lying itself.
Perhaps suggesting they ignore what their friends say, as if it's just
a story and to take their stories "with a grain of salt" is a better
way to deal with it at this point.
Robin B.
Su Penn
On Jun 11, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> I'm not sure why you have to address this with the parents. Can youIn the case of one kid, he is my best friends' sons and this is a problem he's had for years--his preschool teacher was the first one to talk to them about it, and he's 10 now--that they've been working on with him with little success. When he began spending two days a week at my house, it was coming up so much that I talked to them about how they'd like me to handle it. During the first two months he was with us (fresh after being pulled out of 4th grade) it was almost literally true that everything he said was untrue in some way--it was either an out-and-out lie ("My birthday party is this Saturday but you're not invited") or the kind of stories kids tell to seem "cool" (like a story about his fabulous Disney World vacation, which was completely a fabrication). My joking Clinton comment may have seemed rude and judgmental to you (jokes often don't come across well in e-mail) but actually pretty accurately reflected the situation. Because it was so consistent, and I knew the parents were trying to work with him on social skills, I asked them what they'd like me to do. I felt it was necessary because I wanted to be their partner, and for any response I made to be in keeping with the way they were choosing to handle it, rather than doing something that would inadvertently undermine their efforts.
> explain why you felt that was necessary?
Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Robin Bentley
> Because it was so consistent, and I knew the parents were trying toOkay, makes sense.
> work with him on social skills, I asked them what they'd like me to
> do. I felt it was necessary because I wanted to be their partner,
> and for any response I made to be in keeping with the way they were
> choosing to handle it, rather than doing something that would
> inadvertently undermine their efforts.
> My joking Clinton comment may have seemed rude and judgmental to youI thought your kids were saying it. In that case, I wondered why they
> (jokes often don't come across well in e-mail) but actually pretty
> accurately reflected the situation.
would even have a context for it. *You* might have context, on the
other hand <g>.
> In the case of one kid, he is my best friends' sons and this is aThis sounds like more serious than just a social skills problem. Maybe
> problem he's had for years--his preschool teacher was the first one
> to talk to them about it, and he's 10 now--that they've been working
> on with him with little success. When he began spending two days a
> week at my house, it was coming up so much that I talked to them
> about how they'd like me to handle it. During the first two months
> he was with us (fresh after being pulled out of 4th grade) it was
> almost literally true that everything he said was untrue in some
> way--it was either an out-and-out lie ("My birthday party is this
> Saturday but you're not invited") or the kind of stories kids tell
> to seem "cool" (like a story about his fabulous Disney World
> vacation, which was completely a fabrication).
he needs therapy?
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-How do you deal with kids who lie? I would really like to hear from
other parents about this. Not your own kids--but your kids' friends.
My kids have some friends who lie so consistently that the boys no
longer believe what their friends say, and I have gotten skittish
about saying things to the parents like, "So, little Octavian says
you're going to Las Vegas next week!" because such things have so
often turned out not to be true. I'm struggling with how to respond to
the children, and also with how to talk to my kids about this.-=-
I wouldn't make chit-chat with the parents that could get the kid in
trouble.
Depending on the age, it might be something he'll grow out of.
Don't struggle. Be matter-of-fact, and kind and compassionate.
-=- Or my kids mention an upcoming trip, and the friend tells a big
story about the much bigger and better vacation he and his family are
taking soon.-=-
I would recommend that my children not brag to the boy, if he's
feeling sad that he doesn't have cool stuff to report. They can play
with him without getting into reciting what they have that he doesn't,
maybe, especially if he's likely to cover over with bravado or
bluff. Maybe the kindest thing your own children could do would be
to say nice things to and about the boy. Maybe he doesn't get enough
of that. Maybe he needs to hear that some of the things he knows and
can do are cool and impressive.
When Marty was seven or eight he went through a season of saying
things that weren't true. I said various things but one was "Do you
wish that would happen, you mean?" and gave him a chance to rephrase.
Sometimes once he started the story he didn't know how to get back out
of it. I reminded him a few times how important it was to be
trustworthy, and somehow he moved out of that into being very
truthful. We coached him gently.
-=-The boys have caught on to it to the point that they will say to me
or David, "Octavian says he used to have a lot of really cool Legos,
too, but he gave them away, but I'm not sure that's true." What do I
tell the boys? Do I talk to them about the factors (like, in one case,
economic disparity between homes) that might lead a child to lie like
this?-=-
Gently and in simple terms, maybe, yes. Be careful not to give them
things that they might repeat to the boy that would hurt his feelings
worse.
-=-Do I counsel them to ignore lies because of the motives I think
lie behind them, or to confront them?-=-
Neither. I would help them think of ways to pass on by the
situations without attaching to them. If he says "I used to have a
dog like that," your kid could say "Those dogs are pretty," not "What
was his name, then?" or "what happened to him?" or "I bet you
didn't." Neither entrapment nor argument will help the boy. Maybe
just diverting the stories into other topics, kind of changing the
subject or saying something that is simple and doesn't say "HOW COOL!"
or "REALLY?" would be better than either buying into the lie or
calling it a lie.
Saving face for the guest might be the boys' goal.
If it were me, I would talk to the other-family kid one-on-one
somehow, casually if possible, and say it's important to only say what
REALLY happened. It can be something that short. Or if a longer talk
is better, maybe: "When you tell a story, it's better to say 'I wish'
or 'wouldn't it be cool if...' than to say it as if it were true.
And be careful with the truth."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other parents about this. Not your own kids--but your kids' friends.
My kids have some friends who lie so consistently that the boys no
longer believe what their friends say, and I have gotten skittish
about saying things to the parents like, "So, little Octavian says
you're going to Las Vegas next week!" because such things have so
often turned out not to be true. I'm struggling with how to respond to
the children, and also with how to talk to my kids about this.-=-
I wouldn't make chit-chat with the parents that could get the kid in
trouble.
Depending on the age, it might be something he'll grow out of.
Don't struggle. Be matter-of-fact, and kind and compassionate.
-=- Or my kids mention an upcoming trip, and the friend tells a big
story about the much bigger and better vacation he and his family are
taking soon.-=-
I would recommend that my children not brag to the boy, if he's
feeling sad that he doesn't have cool stuff to report. They can play
with him without getting into reciting what they have that he doesn't,
maybe, especially if he's likely to cover over with bravado or
bluff. Maybe the kindest thing your own children could do would be
to say nice things to and about the boy. Maybe he doesn't get enough
of that. Maybe he needs to hear that some of the things he knows and
can do are cool and impressive.
When Marty was seven or eight he went through a season of saying
things that weren't true. I said various things but one was "Do you
wish that would happen, you mean?" and gave him a chance to rephrase.
Sometimes once he started the story he didn't know how to get back out
of it. I reminded him a few times how important it was to be
trustworthy, and somehow he moved out of that into being very
truthful. We coached him gently.
-=-The boys have caught on to it to the point that they will say to me
or David, "Octavian says he used to have a lot of really cool Legos,
too, but he gave them away, but I'm not sure that's true." What do I
tell the boys? Do I talk to them about the factors (like, in one case,
economic disparity between homes) that might lead a child to lie like
this?-=-
Gently and in simple terms, maybe, yes. Be careful not to give them
things that they might repeat to the boy that would hurt his feelings
worse.
-=-Do I counsel them to ignore lies because of the motives I think
lie behind them, or to confront them?-=-
Neither. I would help them think of ways to pass on by the
situations without attaching to them. If he says "I used to have a
dog like that," your kid could say "Those dogs are pretty," not "What
was his name, then?" or "what happened to him?" or "I bet you
didn't." Neither entrapment nor argument will help the boy. Maybe
just diverting the stories into other topics, kind of changing the
subject or saying something that is simple and doesn't say "HOW COOL!"
or "REALLY?" would be better than either buying into the lie or
calling it a lie.
Saving face for the guest might be the boys' goal.
If it were me, I would talk to the other-family kid one-on-one
somehow, casually if possible, and say it's important to only say what
REALLY happened. It can be something that short. Or if a longer talk
is better, maybe: "When you tell a story, it's better to say 'I wish'
or 'wouldn't it be cool if...' than to say it as if it were true.
And be careful with the truth."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
My eldest son had a problem with a friend who lied. They are no longer
close friends because of this reason. My husband dealt with it the
best--gently inserting the truth into a story to diffuse the situation. He
reassured the boy that we liked him whether or not he was a spelling bee
champion. (This was highly unlikely as my son beat him at Scrabble prior to
his making that statement and he seemed to be quite a poor reader and
speller).
My son never pretended to believe his friend, and a few times when other
kids accused him of lying, Rowan always calmly asked everyone what did it
matter if the boy had been untruthful or not. One time this boy left in a
huff because other kids had accused him of lying and he expected my son to
back him that he had not cheated at a game. Rowan instead sided with the
other kids. Rowan asked him friend to apologize, which offended D. I
overheard him telling the other kids after D. left that they shouldn't have
been so mean.
My son often observed this boy's parents lying to avoid confrontations with
him. My husband at one point drew the ire of the boy's mother by telling
him that his parents had told my husband that there could be no gameboy
playing during visits. This led to the boy going home and crying for hours
according to his mother and this was inconvenient for her as she had a yoga
studio in her home. She told my partner that he should not have told the
boys the truth about who was deciding about the gameboy play being banned.
This helped me be more patient, because I realized lying was part of his
family's "normal" way of living.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
close friends because of this reason. My husband dealt with it the
best--gently inserting the truth into a story to diffuse the situation. He
reassured the boy that we liked him whether or not he was a spelling bee
champion. (This was highly unlikely as my son beat him at Scrabble prior to
his making that statement and he seemed to be quite a poor reader and
speller).
My son never pretended to believe his friend, and a few times when other
kids accused him of lying, Rowan always calmly asked everyone what did it
matter if the boy had been untruthful or not. One time this boy left in a
huff because other kids had accused him of lying and he expected my son to
back him that he had not cheated at a game. Rowan instead sided with the
other kids. Rowan asked him friend to apologize, which offended D. I
overheard him telling the other kids after D. left that they shouldn't have
been so mean.
My son often observed this boy's parents lying to avoid confrontations with
him. My husband at one point drew the ire of the boy's mother by telling
him that his parents had told my husband that there could be no gameboy
playing during visits. This led to the boy going home and crying for hours
according to his mother and this was inconvenient for her as she had a yoga
studio in her home. She told my partner that he should not have told the
boys the truth about who was deciding about the gameboy play being banned.
This helped me be more patient, because I realized lying was part of his
family's "normal" way of living.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband at one point drew the ire of the boy's mother by telling
him that his parents had told my husband that there could be no gameboy
playing during visits. This led to the boy going home and crying for
hours
according to his mother and this was inconvenient for her as she had a
yoga
studio in her home. She told my partner that he should not have told the
boys the truth about who was deciding about the gameboy play being
banned.
This helped me be more patient, because I realized lying was part of his
family's "normal" way of living.-=-
OH my. His parents had said "Yes, you can go there, but they won't
let you play gameboy so don't even ask" or some such?
They/the other kid's parents were lying about YOU? Eeeek.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
him that his parents had told my husband that there could be no gameboy
playing during visits. This led to the boy going home and crying for
hours
according to his mother and this was inconvenient for her as she had a
yoga
studio in her home. She told my partner that he should not have told the
boys the truth about who was deciding about the gameboy play being
banned.
This helped me be more patient, because I realized lying was part of his
family's "normal" way of living.-=-
OH my. His parents had said "Yes, you can go there, but they won't
let you play gameboy so don't even ask" or some such?
They/the other kid's parents were lying about YOU? Eeeek.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-So far the only time I have told a parent was when another child
stole from my daughter and she caught her. I was worried about her
stealing from other children and not being caught. -=-
I've told fairly young kids (7, 10) that the thing they're doing is
something adults go to prison for sometimes. It could be theft or
violence or severe sneakiness or bullying/extortion kind of kid-
behavior. A couple of times other on discussion lists have said I
was TERRIBLE and they would *never* tell their child that he could go
to jail.
I didn't say the child could go to jail. I said they were doing
something as children that was wrong--so wrong that if an adult did
it, he could be put in jail. I wasn't playing "I'll call the police
right now" boogey-man games with them.
I suppose there might be quite a few people in jail who had mothers
who thought it would be TERRIBLE ever to mention "jail" or "prison" or
even "police" in front of their precious child.
And I'm not saying every time the neighbor claims he used to have 100
rabbits you assume it's a lie and define misrepresentation or perjury
to him (not that he would have sworn solemnly in a courtroom that he
had 100 rabbits...). I still think compassion and patience are
good. I'm saying that IF a parent speaks to a child who's not seeing
why some behavior or another one might be bad, it can be useful to
say, "No, really; a crime, if an adult does it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stole from my daughter and she caught her. I was worried about her
stealing from other children and not being caught. -=-
I've told fairly young kids (7, 10) that the thing they're doing is
something adults go to prison for sometimes. It could be theft or
violence or severe sneakiness or bullying/extortion kind of kid-
behavior. A couple of times other on discussion lists have said I
was TERRIBLE and they would *never* tell their child that he could go
to jail.
I didn't say the child could go to jail. I said they were doing
something as children that was wrong--so wrong that if an adult did
it, he could be put in jail. I wasn't playing "I'll call the police
right now" boogey-man games with them.
I suppose there might be quite a few people in jail who had mothers
who thought it would be TERRIBLE ever to mention "jail" or "prison" or
even "police" in front of their precious child.
And I'm not saying every time the neighbor claims he used to have 100
rabbits you assume it's a lie and define misrepresentation or perjury
to him (not that he would have sworn solemnly in a courtroom that he
had 100 rabbits...). I still think compassion and patience are
good. I'm saying that IF a parent speaks to a child who's not seeing
why some behavior or another one might be bad, it can be useful to
say, "No, really; a crime, if an adult does it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-You can even talk about when lying might be justified. There are real
reasons to lie. To protect someone else. To protect yourself. Talk
about that in terms of ethics and social behavior.-=-
Some people go an entire lifetime without the dire need to lie to
protect life or property.
Millions more use that "lying might be justified" idea to soothe
themselves when they lie.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reasons to lie. To protect someone else. To protect yourself. Talk
about that in terms of ethics and social behavior.-=-
Some people go an entire lifetime without the dire need to lie to
protect life or property.
Millions more use that "lying might be justified" idea to soothe
themselves when they lie.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca M.
--- Robin Bentley wrote:
I liked how Marina's son had the attitude of "what does it matter"... there's no use arguing with a lie, as a person who is using it to cope will often dig themselves deeper. Most of the time, kids who lie have a good reason for doing so, even if we can't figure it out or address it with them.
It may (or may not - you choose) be helpful to talk to your own kids about why a person may be lying... Robin's list is fabulous. I'd add: To protect a fragile sense of self? To correct a sense of lack in who they are or in some other aspect of life? To avoid embarrassment or shame? To avoid getting in trouble? I'm sure there are many more possible reasons that are compelling to the person who is lying.
Some people lie compulsively and in that case appropriate therapy may be the helpful path. Personally, I wouldn't suggest that to a parent of my child's friend (or even to a family friend)... unless they brought it up.
:) Rebecca
>Lying is a coping mechanism, no matter what the person's age.
>*Are there other reasons why these kids might lie? To feel important or powerful? To gain some control? To mitigate the lack of freedom they might have in their own homes? Do their parents lie to them? *
I liked how Marina's son had the attitude of "what does it matter"... there's no use arguing with a lie, as a person who is using it to cope will often dig themselves deeper. Most of the time, kids who lie have a good reason for doing so, even if we can't figure it out or address it with them.
It may (or may not - you choose) be helpful to talk to your own kids about why a person may be lying... Robin's list is fabulous. I'd add: To protect a fragile sense of self? To correct a sense of lack in who they are or in some other aspect of life? To avoid embarrassment or shame? To avoid getting in trouble? I'm sure there are many more possible reasons that are compelling to the person who is lying.
Some people lie compulsively and in that case appropriate therapy may be the helpful path. Personally, I wouldn't suggest that to a parent of my child's friend (or even to a family friend)... unless they brought it up.
:) Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
I went to put some of this on a page on my website (as I do...) and
there was already a page:
http://sandradodd.com/lies
Sandra
there was already a page:
http://sandradodd.com/lies
Sandra
Robin Bentley
>True.
> Some people go an entire lifetime without the dire need to lie to
> protect life or property.
>Also true.
> Millions more use that "lying might be justified" idea to soothe
> themselves when they lie.
But when talking to your kids about lying, you *can* talk about those
extremes. And tell them what is truly appropriate in all but those
cases.
Robin B.
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