debbiernoll

Hi everyone. We've been unschooling for several months now and I'm realizing more and more that we didn't transition, as far as our parenting goes, slowly enough. I *thought* I was not letting go of everything all at once but I realize now that I may have let go too quickly of some order, structure and boundaries that were comforting and familiar to my children, in particular my youngest who just turned 7. I don't necessarily want to back track and I feel like I'm understanding the concepts of unschooling so much more now than I did a few months ago but I'm not really sure what the journey from where we were to where we want to be should look like. I used to have a plan, and a familiar way of handling most situation (and most of them were printed out and posted all over the house, lists, charts, rewards etc.) I knew what I was going to say, how I was going to act and what punishment/ reward/ lecture etc. would be used. I don't agree with most of those methods anymore though and didn't like the results I was seeing, so it would feel hypocritical to revert back but on the other hand I feel like I have no plan anymore and sometimes react worse for not knowing how to react.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well. I guess, what I'm looking for are ways other people transitioned from traditional parenting to unschooling. I know that not every situation or family is going to look the same but I'm wondering if examples of what worked, and maybe even what didn't, would be helpful to myself and others who may find themselves jumping in too quickly, despite all the advice not to.

Thanks,

Debbie

Sandra Dodd

-=- I used to have a plan, and a familiar way of handling most
situation (and most of them were printed out and posted all over the
house, lists, charts, rewards etc.) I knew what I was going to say,
how I was going to act and what punishment/ reward/ lecture etc. would
be used. I don't agree with most of those methods anymore though and
didn't like the results I was seeing, so it would feel hypocritical to
revert back but on the other hand I feel like I have no plan anymore
and sometimes react worse for not knowing how to react.-=-


Your kids don't know, either.

Replace what you had before with something new, rather than with
nothing at all. If before the answer used to be NO, then discuss it
each time, briefly--talk through your process. Say "If we were the
only ones here..." or "If it weren't so late at night..." it would be
okay, but because [state prohibitive factors], it would be better to
wait until tomorrow. Help them see how to make decisions in light
of courtesy and forward-looking factors.

It will be hard if they felt that decisions were made without those
factors before (toward them), but you could discuss that. "I'm sorry
I used to say no without thinking, and am willing to say yes more now,
but we DO need to think."

Helping them learn to see things as decisions they make after thought,
rather than impulsive blasts of "whatever" might help.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well. I guess, what I'm looking for are ways other people transitioned from traditional parenting to unschooling. I know that not every situation or family is going to look the same but I'm wondering if examples of what worked, and maybe even what didn't, would be helpful to myself and others who may find themselves jumping in too quickly, despite all the advice not to.***

I think one of the underlying ideas behind transitioning gets lost a bit with how overwhelming it all is. If a family has rewards and punishments for behavioral conditioning, it means that there are things that the kids are doing that the parents don't like and want to prevent from happening. If parents can see what those things are, exactly, and understand why they are happening, it's easier to see how to prevent it.

It has a lot to do with seeing the world from the perspective of the child and really understanding appropriate expectations of children's behavior. For instance, a 3 yr old really may not be able to sit still at the dinner table, so no matter how much a parent might expect this behavior, it's not going to happen, even if multiple punishments are doled out, the wiggly behavior will continue to happen. Knowing that a 3 yr old can't sit still and starting from that place for peaceful dinners, will help parents a lot in what TO do.

If parents can get to a point where the child isn't the problem and the behavior isn't necessarily the problem either, then finding solutions are more about helping kids navigate their world easier with less frustrations and less things to act out about. Kids who behave badly are reacting to their environment. Change the environment, not the kid. Meet underlying needs first BEFORE addressing behavior. Do that enough times until it becomes more second nature and the behavioral issues start becoming non issues. Be sweet and kind, even when you want to tell a kid to "knock it off!" If the issue is angry kids, find ways to help kids diffuse anger within themselves before they reach the explosion point. If the issue is hitting or physical, physically stop it and kindly and gently help them be calmer.

If the issues are other things like leaving toys in pathways or dirty dishes on floors in bedrooms, that sort of thing takes a while for kids to do themselves, especially if it's become a power struggle in the past. Sweetly do those things for them as a gift. Clear the rooms of dirty dishes, move things out of pathways, tidy up toys for them so they can have space to move on to the next big thing. Do that with sweetness in your thoughts. Know that for whatever reason they aren't able to do it for themselves just yet and will when they are able.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>For instance, a 3 yr old really may not be able to sit still at the
dinner table, so no matter how much a parent might expect this behavior,
it's not going to happen, even if multiple punishments are doled out, the
wiggly behavior will continue to happen. Knowing that a 3 yr old can't sit
still and starting from that place for peaceful dinners, will help parents a
lot in what TO do.<<<

Lots of adults are wiggly. :D Funny way to put it, isn't it?

It's probably more noticeable in children when one might be observing with
traditional expectations of "weeding" out certain behaviors or waiting for
them to be outgrown. I sometimes bop my feet up and down or drum with a
pencil or something. I used to do it a lot more. Some people who do that
sort of thing frequently. I don't think it's a character flaw-- just a
unique expression and some people prefer to think through things in rhythm
and motion. It's the way they're wired. I definitely think it's the way many
more people are wired as kids.

~Katherine





On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:

> ***I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well. I guess, what I'm
> looking for are ways other people transitioned from traditional parenting to
> unschooling. I know that not every situation or family is going to look the
> same but I'm wondering if examples of what worked, and maybe even what
> didn't, would be helpful to myself and others who may find themselves
> jumping in too quickly, despite all the advice not to.***
>
> I think one of the underlying ideas behind transitioning gets lost a bit
> with how overwhelming it all is. If a family has rewards and punishments
> for behavioral conditioning, it means that there are things that the kids
> are doing that the parents don't like and want to prevent from happening.
> If parents can see what those things are, exactly, and understand why they
> are happening, it's easier to see how to prevent it.
>
> It has a lot to do with seeing the world from the perspective of the child
> and really understanding appropriate expectations of children's behavior.
> For instance, a 3 yr old really may not be able to sit still at the dinner
> table, so no matter how much a parent might expect this behavior, it's not
> going to happen, even if multiple punishments are doled out, the wiggly
> behavior will continue to happen. Knowing that a 3 yr old can't sit still
> and starting from that place for peaceful dinners, will help parents a lot
> in what TO do.
>
> If parents can get to a point where the child isn't the problem and the
> behavior isn't necessarily the problem either, then finding solutions are
> more about helping kids navigate their world easier with less frustrations
> and less things to act out about. Kids who behave badly are reacting to
> their environment. Change the environment, not the kid. Meet underlying
> needs first BEFORE addressing behavior. Do that enough times until it
> becomes more second nature and the behavioral issues start becoming non
> issues. Be sweet and kind, even when you want to tell a kid to "knock it
> off!" If the issue is angry kids, find ways to help kids diffuse anger
> within themselves before they reach the explosion point. If the issue is
> hitting or physical, physically stop it and kindly and gently help them be
> calmer.
>
> If the issues are other things like leaving toys in pathways or dirty
> dishes on floors in bedrooms, that sort of thing takes a while for kids to
> do themselves, especially if it's become a power struggle in the past.
> Sweetly do those things for them as a gift. Clear the rooms of dirty
> dishes, move things out of pathways, tidy up toys for them so they can have
> space to move on to the next big thing. Do that with sweetness in your
> thoughts. Know that for whatever reason they aren't able to do it for
> themselves just yet and will when they are able.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

debbiernoll

=====Kids who behave badly are reacting to
> their environment. Change the environment, not the kid. Meet underlying
> needs first BEFORE addressing behavior. Do that enough times until it
> becomes more second nature and the behavioral issues start becoming non
> issues. Be sweet and kind, even when you want to tell a kid to "knock it
> off!" If the issue is angry kids, find ways to help kids diffuse anger
> within themselves before they reach the explosion point. If the issue is
> hitting or physical, physically stop it and kindly and gently help them be
> calmer.=====

My older two, 12 and 10, can understand more of the transition we are making and the reasons behind it. For my 12 year old, it's been great for our relationship. My 7 year old however, is reacting badly. I've been accused of "spoiling" her in the past by indulging her because she is the youngest and I will admit It bothers me to think that others would view her that way. She's been acting out a lot in the past few months, hitting, crying, throwing fits, acting like a baby, purposely doing the opposite of what's been asked, being mean to her siblings. She doesn't like to talk about things when I try to find out what might be bothering her. She hides or sometimes becomes more aggressive. I think there are a lot of factors going on. Being home with her brother and sister is one, they were usually in school when she was home. She really resents being the youngest and having them around just reminds her that they are capable of more than she is, I think.

I'm trying to be more patient, loving, and understanding but then it seems like sometimes it all bottles up and I explode. If I'm trying to be loving and she kicks me, for example. She's also VERY sensitive so I feel like I end up doing far more damage then. Because of her behavior, she sometimes ends up with her friends mad at her, her brother and sister mad at her, me frustrated with her and I feel like that is just a lot for a 7 year old to handle. I don't want her to feel like she is "bad" and I think she does. I know, in the past, being "good" has always been VERY important to her, something that concerned me a little bit as well. Am I making her feel more responsible, for her behavior by not punishing or rewarding? Is there a way to "ease away" from that kind of parenting?

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> >>>For instance, a 3 yr old really may not be able to sit still at the
> dinner table, so no matter how much a parent might expect this behavior,
> it's not going to happen, even if multiple punishments are doled out, the
> wiggly behavior will continue to happen. Knowing that a 3 yr old can't sit
> still and starting from that place for peaceful dinners, will help parents a
> lot in what TO do.<<<
>
> Lots of adults are wiggly. :D Funny way to put it, isn't it?
>
> It's probably more noticeable in children when one might be observing with
> traditional expectations of "weeding" out certain behaviors or waiting for
> them to be outgrown. I sometimes bop my feet up and down or drum with a
> pencil or something. I used to do it a lot more. Some people who do that
> sort of thing frequently. I don't think it's a character flaw-- just a
> unique expression and some people prefer to think through things in rhythm
> and motion. It's the way they're wired. I definitely think it's the way many
> more people are wired as kids.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> > ***I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well. I guess, what I'm
> > looking for are ways other people transitioned from traditional parenting to
> > unschooling. I know that not every situation or family is going to look the
> > same but I'm wondering if examples of what worked, and maybe even what
> > didn't, would be helpful to myself and others who may find themselves
> > jumping in too quickly, despite all the advice not to.***
> >
> > I think one of the underlying ideas behind transitioning gets lost a bit
> > with how overwhelming it all is. If a family has rewards and punishments
> > for behavioral conditioning, it means that there are things that the kids
> > are doing that the parents don't like and want to prevent from happening.
> > If parents can see what those things are, exactly, and understand why they
> > are happening, it's easier to see how to prevent it.
> >
> > It has a lot to do with seeing the world from the perspective of the child
> > and really understanding appropriate expectations of children's behavior.
> > For instance, a 3 yr old really may not be able to sit still at the dinner
> > table, so no matter how much a parent might expect this behavior, it's not
> > going to happen, even if multiple punishments are doled out, the wiggly
> > behavior will continue to happen. Knowing that a 3 yr old can't sit still
> > and starting from that place for peaceful dinners, will help parents a lot
> > in what TO do.
> >
> > If parents can get to a point where the child isn't the problem and the
> > behavior isn't necessarily the problem either, then finding solutions are
> > more about helping kids navigate their world easier with less frustrations
> > and less things to act out about. Kids who behave badly are reacting to
> > their environment. Change the environment, not the kid. Meet underlying
> > needs first BEFORE addressing behavior. Do that enough times until it
> > becomes more second nature and the behavioral issues start becoming non
> > issues. Be sweet and kind, even when you want to tell a kid to "knock it
> > off!" If the issue is angry kids, find ways to help kids diffuse anger
> > within themselves before they reach the explosion point. If the issue is
> > hitting or physical, physically stop it and kindly and gently help them be
> > calmer.
> >
> > If the issues are other things like leaving toys in pathways or dirty
> > dishes on floors in bedrooms, that sort of thing takes a while for kids to
> > do themselves, especially if it's become a power struggle in the past.
> > Sweetly do those things for them as a gift. Clear the rooms of dirty
> > dishes, move things out of pathways, tidy up toys for them so they can have
> > space to move on to the next big thing. Do that with sweetness in your
> > thoughts. Know that for whatever reason they aren't able to do it for
> > themselves just yet and will when they are able.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

k

>>>Am I making her feel more responsible, for her behavior by not punishing or rewarding? Is there a way to "ease away" from that kind of parenting?<<<

I think finding things to do with her, just the two of you, like mommy
mini-dates sprinkled throughout the day is a great way to ease into a
better partnering with your daughter. If you had a friend who
particularly wanted to hang out with just you yet some other friends
dropped in, that's sort of a possibility of what she might be going
through. Seven is still real little. Karl will turn 7 in July, and
there is nothing he likes better than hanging out and talking and
sharing ideas and laughing and singing and playing together with me. I
wouldn't want to transition him out of it before he's totally ready
to.

~Katherine

Schuyler

Linnaea went through a period that sounds similar at about 7 years old. It may be that it was developmental more than it is about changing parenting tactics. What helped me a lot was to recognize that it wasn't personal, it wasn't about me. Being kind and constant, present, aware, and making sure that there were lots of the basics available. Food readily available, comfort, sleep, those things near to hand made it much easier.

It was hard, I can remember walking through downtown Norwich and crying one day after I'd spent the morning dealing with a daughter who was sure that everyone hated her and that she was horrible and would be better off dead. She was sure that her brother was better at all things than she was and a lot of her anger was directed at him. I had to be very present, I couldn't go off and do something on my own in another room at all. And Simon would get really hurt, he hates tension and he would shrink into this little pile of misery at the first moment of it. That made it even harder for me to be gentle with Linnaea. But the gentle response was the only response that helped. The angry response, the frustrated response, the storming response, none of those had any positive effect. Learning to come to her with help in mind and love all over the place, that had positive impact, each and every time.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: debbiernoll <debbiernoll@...>


My older two, 12 and 10, can understand more of the transition we are making and the reasons behind it. For my 12 year old, it's been great for our relationship. My 7 year old however, is reacting badly. I've been accused of "spoiling" her in the past by indulging her because she is the youngest and I will admit It bothers me to think that others would view her that way. She's been acting out a lot in the past few months, hitting, crying, throwing fits, acting like a baby, purposely doing the opposite of what's been asked, being mean to her siblings. She doesn't like to talk about things when I try to find out what might be bothering her. She hides or sometimes becomes more aggressive. I think there are a lot of factors going on. Being home with her brother and sister is one, they were usually in school when she was home. She really resents being the youngest and having them around just reminds her that they are capable of more than she is, I think.


I'm trying to be more patient, loving, and understanding but then it seems like sometimes it all bottles up and I explode. If I'm trying to be loving and she kicks me, for example. She's also VERY sensitive so I feel like I end up doing far more damage then. Because of her behavior, she sometimes ends up with her friends mad at her, her brother and sister mad at her, me frustrated with her and I feel like that is just a lot for a 7 year old to handle. I don't want her to feel like she is "bad" and I think she does. I know, in the past, being "good" has always been VERY important to her, something that concerned me a little bit as well. Am I making her feel more responsible, for her behavior by not punishing or rewarding? Is there a way to "ease away" from that kind of parenting?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

debbiernoll

===The angry response, the
frustrated response, the storming response, none of those had any positive
effect. Learning to come to her with help in mind and love all over the place,
that had positive impact, each and every time.===

Yes. Anger just makes her more angry, aggressive and defensive. She tends to retreat into herself or hide under the covers and not come out. She really has a hard time talking about her feelings.

foehn_jye

>>>She really resents being the youngest and having them around just reminds her that they are capable of more than she is, I think.<<<

Have you tried asking her if this is the case?

Are there things she's particularly talented in or loves doing on her own, without the influence of her siblings? If so, maybe helping her to pursue her interests will help her to feel more capable in other areas.

My own 7-yr old dd sounds very similar to yours. Her current passions are singing and gymnastics. I try to provide her with a lot of focused attention on these two interests in simple ways--filming videos of her singing, which we upload to the computer and she then watches over and over. I help her to practice her gymnastics at home, we jump on the trampoline together, and I volunteered to lead younger kids' classes at the gym so that I'm physically present while she is working with her coach.

>>> I'm trying to be more patient, loving, and understanding but then it seems like sometimes it all bottles up and I explode.<<<

Are you trying to change your parenting methods too rapidly? Maybe be gentle on yourself and know that change takes time. As much as one may want to become a "perfect"/mindful/gentle parent immediately, it takes work, and an understanding that there is no perfect. I have found that shifting my own reactions takes a lot of practice. Knowing where I want to be is half the work. Practicing my manner of communication is the other half...at least that's how it seems for me these days! Kids provide us with endless opportunities to practice!

>>>Because of her behavior...<<<

I think it would help to try to not focus on behavior, and make a really concerted effort to figure out what things trigger frustration for her. Help her to understand the triggers, and then try to set up an environment where you can work to eliminate the ones that you can. My daughter is also very sensitive and had recently been having big, fearful reactions to bees. For example, if we were taking a walk or on a picnic and a bee flies near her, she would suddenly blurt out that we HAVE TO GO HOME NOW!!! Regardless of who we were with, or how far of a walk home. We have been talking and reading a lot lately about bees and their importance to our food supply, and talking about what endangers bees, and the bee industry and how aspects of it may be stressing bees. In the last several weeks she has become less reactive and will sometimes not even notice them. Working to helping her understand the role bees play in the environment has seemed to help deactivate the stressor...at least a little bit.

>>>Am I making her feel more responsible, for her behavior by not punishing or rewarding? Is there a way to "ease away" from that kind of parenting?<<<

I imagine that she is not necessarily feeling more responsible, but maybe she is feeling confused. If you've made rapid, and big changes in the way you react and communicate with your kids, have you talked to them individually about why you're changing? Maybe she is uncertain if you'll react one way vs. another way, and that may be causing bigger reaction/frustration for her. I always find it helpful to be honest. If I react in a manner that is less than helpful, I apologize as soon as I can and tell my kids that I'll try harder to not react in yucky ways.

Books that have helped me are How to Talk so Kids will Listen, and Listen so Kids will Talk; Siblings without Rivalry; Raising our Children, Raising Ourselves; and Unconditional Parenting. None of these books are Unschooling books, but they were like stepping stones for me when I was seeking to move away from the parenting style I grew up with and working towards becoming the parent I want to be. While they do tend to be geared towards young children, I think there is value in there applicable to children of all ages.