Confidence in kindness (long and not happy)
Sandra Dodd
Su Penn wrote something in the marriage counseling topic. I'm quoting
it below. I want to change direction with it, and I'm not leading to
something really happy, so those on the brink of dismay or depression
should skip it. It will be here to read later, someday.
**************
You said you weren't used to defending your parenting; one thing I've
gotten better at over the years is realizing I don't have to. Not
everyone has to understand and approve of what we do. Recently, a
mother of five kids told me, "You need to crack down on Yehva, or
she'll be completely out of control by the time she's six!"
I just said, "We just don't think about kids that way at our house."
She repeated how important it was for me to "discipline" Yehva. I was
upset and felt attacked, sure, but all I said was, "Well, time will
tell."
**************
This was posted by me Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:26 pm on a list I no longer
recommend to people:
**************
I wrote some of this in a comment on Shan Burton's blog, here:
http://memismommy.blogspot.com/2010/02/fifteen-years-from-now.html
I'm expanding on it for this list, though.
I have a photo of Kirby and Marty I've just lately scanned and sent to
Lee Stranahan for his project. http://tinyurl.com/yk2v8ad
A year or two after that, a friend of mine who also had two children
about those ages said to me, at a party at her house, that Kirby was
going to grow up to hit me. "When he's a teenager, he's going to hit
you."
It didn't make me worry, but it was like a curse, like a bet. If Kirby
hit me, she won. If Kirby didn't, she lost.
I should perhaps mention that she and her husband were Kirby's
godparents.
Then and for a couple of years after, that mom used to go and hang out
at the park day where the la leche league playgroup was turning into
an unschooling group as more kids went to school. Her kids could have
made GREAT unschoolers, and they were friends with my kids, but they
went to school. She used to come and sit and do needlepoint while we
talked. She said she might bring her kids home soon, but certainly
they would never to go middle school! When they could read, she'd
homeschool.
Five years or so out from the night of the curse, her husband killed
himself. When he was missing, before they found the body in the shed,
she called me, twice, to see if I had heard from him. I was, indeed,
one of the few people he was likely to have called if he had just left
the property rather than the whole planet.
I knew, but not everyone knew, that the reason he killed himself is
that his wife had told him she wanted a divorce and he needed to move
out. No matter that it was his house first, and he had done much of
the work himself. No "let's fix this," just "move out."
I know dozens of stories that could make this clearer, but nothing
would make it happier.
I went to the memorial service, at her house. I knew nearly everyone
there. I observed the interactions among children, between adults. I
saw her get to play the grieving widow card, and never seem to
consider the least blame for her children having lost their father.
They were about to lose him one way or the other, but this way she
could blame Stan alone.
After that day I decided not to go back, not for 4th of July parties,
not for Christmas, not for projects. I slipped away. Before I went I
told some other mutual friends that the situation was toxic and I
wasn't going to be a part of it any more, that my kids' lives were
happy and I was going to keep away. I said Stan had died of the
cynicism and pessimism that permeated that whole house, all the time.
People couldn't express a happy thought without others jumping on them
and telling them that they didn't know what they were talking about,
or that if they thought that was good/nice/funny, then they were stupid.
About five years after the dad died, +/- ten years after the original
"he will hit you," a friend of ours who knew about it all spoke one
brief statement to me. I didn't respond. It was a message that was
best unresponded to. It was: "Jeff hit Linda." The mother who assured
me that her childrearing was right and mine would lead to violence had
been hit by her son.
I had not. Still haven't. Kirby is 23. Jeff will never be. He died of
an overdose in December. I don't know if it was accidental, but he had
attempted suicide some time back.
His mother didn't seem very grieved. She said he was just his father's
son; bad genetics. Somehow she managed to take no responsibility for
either situation.
I have one other family's story and another marriage counselling
resource to share, and then if the moderators want me off the list
I'll go. I don't have much interest in being in a group that isn't
focussed on positive and joyful options and outcomes. It reminds me
too much of Stan and Linda's house.
Sandra
------------------------------
Someone complained, there, about me sharing that:
-=-I have never met you, Sandra, or any other poster on the
list, only knowing you through your words. I am puzzled by the stories
you
share, Sandra, and wondering if you can help me understand why you
have shared
several stories (very sad ones!) that are not your own, even including
names
which I assume not to be changed to protect privacy.-=-
I responded:
Death is a matter of public record, as are marriage and divorce. None
of those have to do with privacy.
Then I decided that wasn't enough and responded again:
-------------------------------
-=- I am puzzled by the stories you share, Sandra, and wondering if
you can help me understand why you have shared several stories (very
sad ones!) that are not your own, even including names which I assume
not to be changed to protect privacy. -=-
-= why you have shared several stories (very sad ones!) that are not
your own-=-
I shared one story.
This family was intimately involved with mine, and over the years made
different decisions that led to very different results.
I'm puzzled by people not understanding. My son's godmother. A
promise/curse that my son would grow up to hit me. Me, called to help
locate a man who had shot himself. What part of that is not my story?
My own marriage is 25 years, with six years together before that. Our
choices went another direction, with a focus on our children's joy and
on creating an unschooling nest for our children.
....
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it below. I want to change direction with it, and I'm not leading to
something really happy, so those on the brink of dismay or depression
should skip it. It will be here to read later, someday.
**************
You said you weren't used to defending your parenting; one thing I've
gotten better at over the years is realizing I don't have to. Not
everyone has to understand and approve of what we do. Recently, a
mother of five kids told me, "You need to crack down on Yehva, or
she'll be completely out of control by the time she's six!"
I just said, "We just don't think about kids that way at our house."
She repeated how important it was for me to "discipline" Yehva. I was
upset and felt attacked, sure, but all I said was, "Well, time will
tell."
**************
This was posted by me Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:26 pm on a list I no longer
recommend to people:
**************
I wrote some of this in a comment on Shan Burton's blog, here:
http://memismommy.blogspot.com/2010/02/fifteen-years-from-now.html
I'm expanding on it for this list, though.
I have a photo of Kirby and Marty I've just lately scanned and sent to
Lee Stranahan for his project. http://tinyurl.com/yk2v8ad
A year or two after that, a friend of mine who also had two children
about those ages said to me, at a party at her house, that Kirby was
going to grow up to hit me. "When he's a teenager, he's going to hit
you."
It didn't make me worry, but it was like a curse, like a bet. If Kirby
hit me, she won. If Kirby didn't, she lost.
I should perhaps mention that she and her husband were Kirby's
godparents.
Then and for a couple of years after, that mom used to go and hang out
at the park day where the la leche league playgroup was turning into
an unschooling group as more kids went to school. Her kids could have
made GREAT unschoolers, and they were friends with my kids, but they
went to school. She used to come and sit and do needlepoint while we
talked. She said she might bring her kids home soon, but certainly
they would never to go middle school! When they could read, she'd
homeschool.
Five years or so out from the night of the curse, her husband killed
himself. When he was missing, before they found the body in the shed,
she called me, twice, to see if I had heard from him. I was, indeed,
one of the few people he was likely to have called if he had just left
the property rather than the whole planet.
I knew, but not everyone knew, that the reason he killed himself is
that his wife had told him she wanted a divorce and he needed to move
out. No matter that it was his house first, and he had done much of
the work himself. No "let's fix this," just "move out."
I know dozens of stories that could make this clearer, but nothing
would make it happier.
I went to the memorial service, at her house. I knew nearly everyone
there. I observed the interactions among children, between adults. I
saw her get to play the grieving widow card, and never seem to
consider the least blame for her children having lost their father.
They were about to lose him one way or the other, but this way she
could blame Stan alone.
After that day I decided not to go back, not for 4th of July parties,
not for Christmas, not for projects. I slipped away. Before I went I
told some other mutual friends that the situation was toxic and I
wasn't going to be a part of it any more, that my kids' lives were
happy and I was going to keep away. I said Stan had died of the
cynicism and pessimism that permeated that whole house, all the time.
People couldn't express a happy thought without others jumping on them
and telling them that they didn't know what they were talking about,
or that if they thought that was good/nice/funny, then they were stupid.
About five years after the dad died, +/- ten years after the original
"he will hit you," a friend of ours who knew about it all spoke one
brief statement to me. I didn't respond. It was a message that was
best unresponded to. It was: "Jeff hit Linda." The mother who assured
me that her childrearing was right and mine would lead to violence had
been hit by her son.
I had not. Still haven't. Kirby is 23. Jeff will never be. He died of
an overdose in December. I don't know if it was accidental, but he had
attempted suicide some time back.
His mother didn't seem very grieved. She said he was just his father's
son; bad genetics. Somehow she managed to take no responsibility for
either situation.
I have one other family's story and another marriage counselling
resource to share, and then if the moderators want me off the list
I'll go. I don't have much interest in being in a group that isn't
focussed on positive and joyful options and outcomes. It reminds me
too much of Stan and Linda's house.
Sandra
------------------------------
Someone complained, there, about me sharing that:
-=-I have never met you, Sandra, or any other poster on the
list, only knowing you through your words. I am puzzled by the stories
you
share, Sandra, and wondering if you can help me understand why you
have shared
several stories (very sad ones!) that are not your own, even including
names
which I assume not to be changed to protect privacy.-=-
I responded:
Death is a matter of public record, as are marriage and divorce. None
of those have to do with privacy.
Then I decided that wasn't enough and responded again:
-------------------------------
-=- I am puzzled by the stories you share, Sandra, and wondering if
you can help me understand why you have shared several stories (very
sad ones!) that are not your own, even including names which I assume
not to be changed to protect privacy. -=-
-= why you have shared several stories (very sad ones!) that are not
your own-=-
I shared one story.
This family was intimately involved with mine, and over the years made
different decisions that led to very different results.
I'm puzzled by people not understanding. My son's godmother. A
promise/curse that my son would grow up to hit me. Me, called to help
locate a man who had shot himself. What part of that is not my story?
My own marriage is 25 years, with six years together before that. Our
choices went another direction, with a focus on our children's joy and
on creating an unschooling nest for our children.
....
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 20, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
It wasn't until I was relaying the story to a friend a year or two later, and she said, "Wow, that's really f***ed up," that I realized how f***ed up it was to _assume_ that your child's default setting was to be an abuser.
Sometimes I think we shape our kids into what we believe kids are. I know so many parents who think discipline is paramount, and when their kids resist being disciplined, they see that as proof that kids need to be disciplined, so they discipline harder, take more away, impose more rules, and the kids resisting those or subverting them is taken as more proof of how much discipline is needed.
Whereas we unschoolers assume the best about our kids. When Eric resists adult direction, we take that to mean he needs more autonomy, and when he give him more autonomy, he responds by being an easier kid to get along with. We never required chores, expecting that kids would want to be part of the family and would help out as and when they were able, and lo and behold, Eric has recently begun really helping with things like unloading groceries, or entertaining his little sister while I cook. And when I thank him, or point out how much it helped, he seems to really like knowing he has done something that meaningfully contributed to the family.
So, the mom down the street calls me up to say how out-of-control her daughter is and to ask advice because she has already imposed the strictest punishment she can think of and her daughter still won't give in, what should she do? When for the last 8 years she's been controlling everything that poor kid does down to refusing to let her daughter get a different haircut and telling her to eat a grape before she has another bite of cheese.
And friends who spent the last 9 years telling me I needed to discipline Eric more are telling me how much they admire his social skills, and how good he is with his younger siblings, and how much he helped out when he visited their house. (One friend in particular has capitulated--she told me recently, "Eric is a real unschooling success story.").
Kids behave like kids behave. As parents, we have the choice to ascribe positive or negative motivations to them, to look at them judgmentally or lovingly even when they're being very challenging for us, to contribute to a positive or a negative reinforcing cycle.
Or something like that.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> A year or two after that, a friend of mine who also had two childrenMany years ago, I knew a woman through my job who was a single mom with one son who was about 7 or 8 at that time. I remember her talking about some discipline problems she was having with him, and saying something like, "If I don't get control of him now, what's going to happen when he's bigger and heavier than me?" It kind of made sense to me at the time; I was a man-hating radical lesbian feminist and perfectly well-prepared to believe that boys who weren't shown who the boss was would grow up to push their moms around.
> about those ages said to me, at a party at her house, that Kirby was
> going to grow up to hit me. "When he's a teenager, he's going to hit
> you."
> It didn't make me worry, but it was like a curse, like a bet. If Kirby
> hit me, she won. If Kirby didn't, she lost.
It wasn't until I was relaying the story to a friend a year or two later, and she said, "Wow, that's really f***ed up," that I realized how f***ed up it was to _assume_ that your child's default setting was to be an abuser.
Sometimes I think we shape our kids into what we believe kids are. I know so many parents who think discipline is paramount, and when their kids resist being disciplined, they see that as proof that kids need to be disciplined, so they discipline harder, take more away, impose more rules, and the kids resisting those or subverting them is taken as more proof of how much discipline is needed.
Whereas we unschoolers assume the best about our kids. When Eric resists adult direction, we take that to mean he needs more autonomy, and when he give him more autonomy, he responds by being an easier kid to get along with. We never required chores, expecting that kids would want to be part of the family and would help out as and when they were able, and lo and behold, Eric has recently begun really helping with things like unloading groceries, or entertaining his little sister while I cook. And when I thank him, or point out how much it helped, he seems to really like knowing he has done something that meaningfully contributed to the family.
So, the mom down the street calls me up to say how out-of-control her daughter is and to ask advice because she has already imposed the strictest punishment she can think of and her daughter still won't give in, what should she do? When for the last 8 years she's been controlling everything that poor kid does down to refusing to let her daughter get a different haircut and telling her to eat a grape before she has another bite of cheese.
And friends who spent the last 9 years telling me I needed to discipline Eric more are telling me how much they admire his social skills, and how good he is with his younger siblings, and how much he helped out when he visited their house. (One friend in particular has capitulated--she told me recently, "Eric is a real unschooling success story.").
Kids behave like kids behave. As parents, we have the choice to ascribe positive or negative motivations to them, to look at them judgmentally or lovingly even when they're being very challenging for us, to contribute to a positive or a negative reinforcing cycle.
Or something like that.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-And friends who spent the last 9 years telling me I needed to
discipline Eric more are telling me how much they admire his social
skills, and how good he is with his younger siblings, and how much he
helped out when he visited their house. (One friend in particular has
capitulated--she told me recently, "Eric is a real unschooling success
story.").-=-
On Keith's side there are five grandchildren: Two boys about the ages
of Kirby and Marty, sons of the eldest of three brothers, in South
Carolina. Middle brother didn't reproduce. Keith has our three.
Keith's mom died last year. Kirby had a big project at work and so
didn't come to the funeral. Marty and Holly went. They had been to
the middle brother's funeral the year before.
Keith's dad is dying, gently. He's 92.
Those other kids won't come and visit. I haven't seen them since
Marty was little. Holly's never met them.
When the kids were little, there were photos on the fridge at
grandma's of all the grandkids. Those two were in jackets and ties
with haircuts. My three were nekkid in the bathtub, Holly pouring
water on Kirby's head.
As years passed, the "right" two slipped away and our three were more
interested in the grandparents.
Holly asked me this week whether she'll get to see her grandpa before
he dies. She'll be home in July. She asked Marty if they could drive
down to Alamogordo when she gets back.
Another one of those unforeseen outcomes. Who could've guessed?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discipline Eric more are telling me how much they admire his social
skills, and how good he is with his younger siblings, and how much he
helped out when he visited their house. (One friend in particular has
capitulated--she told me recently, "Eric is a real unschooling success
story.").-=-
On Keith's side there are five grandchildren: Two boys about the ages
of Kirby and Marty, sons of the eldest of three brothers, in South
Carolina. Middle brother didn't reproduce. Keith has our three.
Keith's mom died last year. Kirby had a big project at work and so
didn't come to the funeral. Marty and Holly went. They had been to
the middle brother's funeral the year before.
Keith's dad is dying, gently. He's 92.
Those other kids won't come and visit. I haven't seen them since
Marty was little. Holly's never met them.
When the kids were little, there were photos on the fridge at
grandma's of all the grandkids. Those two were in jackets and ties
with haircuts. My three were nekkid in the bathtub, Holly pouring
water on Kirby's head.
As years passed, the "right" two slipped away and our three were more
interested in the grandparents.
Holly asked me this week whether she'll get to see her grandpa before
he dies. She'll be home in July. She asked Marty if they could drive
down to Alamogordo when she gets back.
Another one of those unforeseen outcomes. Who could've guessed?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
The story is very sad to be sure. And it's possible that it could have
been Sandra's life had she made other choices. I think that's the
point of telling the story on this list.
When those things happen, to say that it was nobody's fault and that
things couldn't have been different is very frightening. That's not
what I got from Sandra's story. That story, to me, means that, fault
aside, making decisions with the happiness, sanity and peace of one's
family in view is so much less likely to turn into struggles that lead
to not just one death but two.
It's not so uncommon, unfortunately, for family infighting to get
those kinds of results. I know of two separate and unrelated families
close to me which ended up in a total of 3 deaths. Sandra's story is
enough to get the point across. So I won't tell those stories here.
One of them is the closest friend I ever had. I'm in contact with the
children and the husband who are very sweet and doing alright. All my
friend's children have nothing to do anymore with the toxic element,
an adoptive parent. They hang with my friend's widowed hubby instead.
:) Their lives are sweet and sane, as well as bittersweet, and they
are recovering well as far as I know.
~Katherine
been Sandra's life had she made other choices. I think that's the
point of telling the story on this list.
When those things happen, to say that it was nobody's fault and that
things couldn't have been different is very frightening. That's not
what I got from Sandra's story. That story, to me, means that, fault
aside, making decisions with the happiness, sanity and peace of one's
family in view is so much less likely to turn into struggles that lead
to not just one death but two.
It's not so uncommon, unfortunately, for family infighting to get
those kinds of results. I know of two separate and unrelated families
close to me which ended up in a total of 3 deaths. Sandra's story is
enough to get the point across. So I won't tell those stories here.
One of them is the closest friend I ever had. I'm in contact with the
children and the husband who are very sweet and doing alright. All my
friend's children have nothing to do anymore with the toxic element,
an adoptive parent. They hang with my friend's widowed hubby instead.
:) Their lives are sweet and sane, as well as bittersweet, and they
are recovering well as far as I know.
~Katherine
k
>>>And it's possible that it could have been Sandra's life had she made other choices. <<<No no no... I meant to say it could be ANYONE's life if one makes
different decisions.
Still not perfect but I wanted to correct that comment immediately.
My proofing sucks. Sorry about that.
~Katherine
On 5/20/10, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> The story is very sad to be sure. And it's possible that it could have
> been Sandra's life had she made other choices. I think that's the
> point of telling the story on this list.
>
> When those things happen, to say that it was nobody's fault and that
> things couldn't have been different is very frightening. That's not
> what I got from Sandra's story. That story, to me, means that, fault
> aside, making decisions with the happiness, sanity and peace of one's
> family in view is so much less likely to turn into struggles that lead
> to not just one death but two.
>
> It's not so uncommon, unfortunately, for family infighting to get
> those kinds of results. I know of two separate and unrelated families
> close to me which ended up in a total of 3 deaths. Sandra's story is
> enough to get the point across. So I won't tell those stories here.
>
> One of them is the closest friend I ever had. I'm in contact with the
> children and the husband who are very sweet and doing alright. All my
> friend's children have nothing to do anymore with the toxic element,
> an adoptive parent. They hang with my friend's widowed hubby instead.
> :) Their lives are sweet and sane, as well as bittersweet, and they
> are recovering well as far as I know.
>
> ~Katherine
>
Katy Jennings
====When the kids were little, there were photos on the fridge at grandma's of all the grandkids. Those two were in jackets and ties with haircuts. My three were nekkid in the bathtub, Holly pouring water on Kirby's head.====
I met Keith's dad, a few times. In his conservative, fairly old-fashioned home, was a huge smiling picture of Holly on the fridge with pink hair. I don't remember any other pictures of other grandkids, maybe they were there, but Holly was prominent. It may have been a family picture, from a wedding?, but anyway, the thing that struck me was that he was not ashamed of her pink hair, he had her out for all to see. I commented on how wonderful she is, and he agreed. My grandparents, actually my dad's whole family, are very conservative, the only pictures allowed to be seen are the Sunday-best type, boys in ties and girls in dresses never looking happy. Richard and I are lucky to have my mom here who has nekkid, dirty, dyed, happy, kid pics everywhere.
Katy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I met Keith's dad, a few times. In his conservative, fairly old-fashioned home, was a huge smiling picture of Holly on the fridge with pink hair. I don't remember any other pictures of other grandkids, maybe they were there, but Holly was prominent. It may have been a family picture, from a wedding?, but anyway, the thing that struck me was that he was not ashamed of her pink hair, he had her out for all to see. I commented on how wonderful she is, and he agreed. My grandparents, actually my dad's whole family, are very conservative, the only pictures allowed to be seen are the Sunday-best type, boys in ties and girls in dresses never looking happy. Richard and I are lucky to have my mom here who has nekkid, dirty, dyed, happy, kid pics everywhere.
Katy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]