Marriage Counseling and Unschooling
nowanestof4
Hello,
We have been unschooling our 5yo daughter and soon-to-be 3yo son for one year now.
My husband and I have been having difficulties in our marriage, so about five weeks ago we started seeing a counselor. Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to communicate came up, the counselor looked at me and said, very animatedly, that my children "*need* to be in bed by X-o'clock." She knows that our children are being homeschooled, but does not know the specifics, and my hasty attempt at explaining to her that "we do not have to wake up at six'o'clock, so we do not have to go to bed at eight'o'clock" was received with "so what? they still need to be in bed at X-o'clock. it's about setting limits, and about you and your husband having time for each other." She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my parenting. This completely threw me off, as I am not used to having to defend my parenting style, and hastily told her that it is the result of a lot of research, thinking, and soul-searching (not those exact words though). I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt patronized, which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it ended with her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.
I realize that my husband and I need to explain to her that this is how we have decided to raise our children, and that it should be respected, but I feel she is someone who thinks that there is one right way to do it, the one she approves of. There is also the issue of my husband not being in agreement with some aspects of unschooling, and I fear that someone like her will support and further that.
I would like to know if any of you have had experience with this kind of situation, and what your thoughts are. If you need more specifics, in order to better understand the situation, I will try my best to provide them.
Thank you very much for your time,
Cristina
We have been unschooling our 5yo daughter and soon-to-be 3yo son for one year now.
My husband and I have been having difficulties in our marriage, so about five weeks ago we started seeing a counselor. Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to communicate came up, the counselor looked at me and said, very animatedly, that my children "*need* to be in bed by X-o'clock." She knows that our children are being homeschooled, but does not know the specifics, and my hasty attempt at explaining to her that "we do not have to wake up at six'o'clock, so we do not have to go to bed at eight'o'clock" was received with "so what? they still need to be in bed at X-o'clock. it's about setting limits, and about you and your husband having time for each other." She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my parenting. This completely threw me off, as I am not used to having to defend my parenting style, and hastily told her that it is the result of a lot of research, thinking, and soul-searching (not those exact words though). I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt patronized, which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it ended with her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.
I realize that my husband and I need to explain to her that this is how we have decided to raise our children, and that it should be respected, but I feel she is someone who thinks that there is one right way to do it, the one she approves of. There is also the issue of my husband not being in agreement with some aspects of unschooling, and I fear that someone like her will support and further that.
I would like to know if any of you have had experience with this kind of situation, and what your thoughts are. If you need more specifics, in order to better understand the situation, I will try my best to provide them.
Thank you very much for your time,
Cristina
Vidyut Kale
Hi Christina,
Its wonderful that you are getting help for your marriage.
The role of counsellors as change agents is often misunderstood. It is not
her job to tell you what to do. It is to help the two of you find options.
She may make suggestions that she thinks are really important to try, but
they have no power beyond what you give them. This might help with the
defensiveness.
I think it might be useful to see where your husband is on the issue of
sleep times and speak directly with him in her presence and ask her
assistance in facilitating the communication rather than specific action
suggestions. Most counsellors should be open to that, since it is what the
passion for the work is all about anyway. You could even bluntly ask for her
assistance in controlling her own emotions, since there are already two
opinions feeling strongly on the subject, and her joining the fray will help
no one. Don't accuse, get defensive, angry, etc. Just accept that as a
person, she feels strongly about her own beliefs and her involvement with
your case makes it feel intimate and urgent that she do something if she
feels that things are going on a track with potential for trouble. Its nice
she's so involved and cares, but she could help more by helping the two of
you learn to dialogue around issues.... blah,,, blah. Basically, she's not
evil, and nice that she cares, but you are paying the bill to get your work
done, not hers.
For what its worth, relationships of any intimacy - whether with a
counsellor or husband will go through issues where there is disagreement. It
works out better in the long run to work through it than change counsellors
and begin from the beginning with a new person all over again. Otherwise,
you simply end up paying for people to become acquainted with your case and
leaving while you make a career out of explaining your life to them. Insist
that professional boundaries be maintained, and use the service she offers
as intended. You are not required to act on her wishes or to provide her
coaching on different ways of life. Her business is the dynamics between the
two of you, not specifics of decisions made - be it your child's sleep
timings or if you eat food with preservatives.
hope this helps.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its wonderful that you are getting help for your marriage.
The role of counsellors as change agents is often misunderstood. It is not
her job to tell you what to do. It is to help the two of you find options.
She may make suggestions that she thinks are really important to try, but
they have no power beyond what you give them. This might help with the
defensiveness.
I think it might be useful to see where your husband is on the issue of
sleep times and speak directly with him in her presence and ask her
assistance in facilitating the communication rather than specific action
suggestions. Most counsellors should be open to that, since it is what the
passion for the work is all about anyway. You could even bluntly ask for her
assistance in controlling her own emotions, since there are already two
opinions feeling strongly on the subject, and her joining the fray will help
no one. Don't accuse, get defensive, angry, etc. Just accept that as a
person, she feels strongly about her own beliefs and her involvement with
your case makes it feel intimate and urgent that she do something if she
feels that things are going on a track with potential for trouble. Its nice
she's so involved and cares, but she could help more by helping the two of
you learn to dialogue around issues.... blah,,, blah. Basically, she's not
evil, and nice that she cares, but you are paying the bill to get your work
done, not hers.
For what its worth, relationships of any intimacy - whether with a
counsellor or husband will go through issues where there is disagreement. It
works out better in the long run to work through it than change counsellors
and begin from the beginning with a new person all over again. Otherwise,
you simply end up paying for people to become acquainted with your case and
leaving while you make a career out of explaining your life to them. Insist
that professional boundaries be maintained, and use the service she offers
as intended. You are not required to act on her wishes or to provide her
coaching on different ways of life. Her business is the dynamics between the
two of you, not specifics of decisions made - be it your child's sleep
timings or if you eat food with preservatives.
hope this helps.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
A useful way of establishing the boundaries may be to say something like
"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we follow
with out son. I'm sure you'll find it interesting, since your work deals
with so much psychology. If you like, after the session, I can tell you
about it over a cup of coffee." Point being, you and your beliefs matter,
but don't bill us for it. Or, in other words, your problem with it is not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we follow
with out son. I'm sure you'll find it interesting, since your work deals
with so much psychology. If you like, after the session, I can tell you
about it over a cup of coffee." Point being, you and your beliefs matter,
but don't bill us for it. Or, in other words, your problem with it is not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
On May 20, 2010, at 4:50 AM, nowanestof4 wrote:
Paula
> I would like to know if any of you have had experience with this kind of situation, and what your thoughts are.Find another counselor. You will never be comfortable with this one.
Paula
Claire
Cristina wrote:
But with young kids, and living an unschooling lifestyle, communication between the parents is often going to be a bit piecemeal. That doesn't mean it can't be satisfactory communication, it depends on your expectations.
There are times when I feel like there is a gulf between my partner and I because we are both so busy in our separate spheres - I feel alone and under-appreciated. The best way for me to overcome these feelings is to reach out to him and try to re-connect, even if it is a quick cuddle on the couch or sharing a funny story. Sex is a great way to re-connect too, but often there's not much time for that either!
My view on your counselor is that she should be helping you and your husband get to the heart of what is troubling your marriage, not emphasising peripheral things like kids' bedtimes. What is really the issue here? (You don't have to answer here of course!) If your husband does have concerns about aspects of unschooling, take his concerns seriously, research a solid answer and present it to him as part of your ongoing dialogue about your unschooling life.
I am completely convinced by all the good advice from the list that maintaining a good relationship with your partner is vital to unschooling. This thought has helped me many times to focus on all the good things about my partner, and to reach out to him with love and respect.
Claire
>>Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to >>communicate came up,...I can totally relate to this as I also have a 5 year old and almost 3 year old. We also have never had set bedtimes, so my partner and I do not have a great deal of time to ourselves. He rings me from work every day at lunchtime, just so we can catch up on how each other's day is going. I sometimes email him during the day with a cute story about what the kids are doing. I keep a diary recording snippets of what we do each day, and he enjoys reading this when he gets home from work. When we are all driving in the car is often a good time for a chat.
But with young kids, and living an unschooling lifestyle, communication between the parents is often going to be a bit piecemeal. That doesn't mean it can't be satisfactory communication, it depends on your expectations.
There are times when I feel like there is a gulf between my partner and I because we are both so busy in our separate spheres - I feel alone and under-appreciated. The best way for me to overcome these feelings is to reach out to him and try to re-connect, even if it is a quick cuddle on the couch or sharing a funny story. Sex is a great way to re-connect too, but often there's not much time for that either!
My view on your counselor is that she should be helping you and your husband get to the heart of what is troubling your marriage, not emphasising peripheral things like kids' bedtimes. What is really the issue here? (You don't have to answer here of course!) If your husband does have concerns about aspects of unschooling, take his concerns seriously, research a solid answer and present it to him as part of your ongoing dialogue about your unschooling life.
I am completely convinced by all the good advice from the list that maintaining a good relationship with your partner is vital to unschooling. This thought has helped me many times to focus on all the good things about my partner, and to reach out to him with love and respect.
Claire
Sandra Dodd
-=-I realize that my husband and I need to explain to her that this is
how we have decided to raise our children, and that it should be
respected, but I feel she is someone who thinks that there is one
right way to do it, the one she approves of. There is also the issue
of my husband not being in agreement with some aspects of unschooling,
and I fear that someone like her will support and further that.-=-
I'm going to start there, and not at your beginning.
Unless your husband agrees with all aspects of unschooling, then that
is NOT how you (plural; you used "we") have decided to raise your
children.
If you are making decisions your husband doesn't agree with, that will
harm the marriage.
It would be better to have a strong marriage with your children in
school than to risk separation or divorce.
-=-She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my
parenting. This completely threw me off, as I am not used to having to
defend my parenting style-=-
I'm surprised it threw you off. I'm surprised you didn't know before
you went there that the result would be that.
If you're not used to having to defend your parenting style, it's
probably because your children are so young.
-=-There is also the issue of my husband not being in agreement with
some aspects of unschooling, and I fear that someone like her will
support and further that.-=-
If your husband wants to unschool, the best thing to do is to get to
conferences quickly so he can hear speakers, meet older unschooled
kids, unschooling dads, and see families interacting.
If your husband does NOT want to unschool, the best thing to do is
back off of that until he might someday change his mind.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Pam Sorooshian knows a consellor in California who might be able to
help, but it's not like every town has unschooling-friendly
professionals. Not even every country!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
how we have decided to raise our children, and that it should be
respected, but I feel she is someone who thinks that there is one
right way to do it, the one she approves of. There is also the issue
of my husband not being in agreement with some aspects of unschooling,
and I fear that someone like her will support and further that.-=-
I'm going to start there, and not at your beginning.
Unless your husband agrees with all aspects of unschooling, then that
is NOT how you (plural; you used "we") have decided to raise your
children.
If you are making decisions your husband doesn't agree with, that will
harm the marriage.
It would be better to have a strong marriage with your children in
school than to risk separation or divorce.
-=-She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my
parenting. This completely threw me off, as I am not used to having to
defend my parenting style-=-
I'm surprised it threw you off. I'm surprised you didn't know before
you went there that the result would be that.
If you're not used to having to defend your parenting style, it's
probably because your children are so young.
-=-There is also the issue of my husband not being in agreement with
some aspects of unschooling, and I fear that someone like her will
support and further that.-=-
If your husband wants to unschool, the best thing to do is to get to
conferences quickly so he can hear speakers, meet older unschooled
kids, unschooling dads, and see families interacting.
If your husband does NOT want to unschool, the best thing to do is
back off of that until he might someday change his mind.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Pam Sorooshian knows a consellor in California who might be able to
help, but it's not like every town has unschooling-friendly
professionals. Not even every country!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Basically, she's not evil, and nice that she cares, but you are
paying the bill to get your work
done, not hers.=-
That sounds nice in theory, but going to a professional means
accepting, to some extent, the professional advice you're paying for.
You're paying the bill for that person's advice. Even if she were
advertised as a mediator rather than counsellor, she could still
mediate in her own preferred way.
-=-It
works out better in the long run to work through it than change
counsellors
and begin from the beginning with a new person all over again.
Otherwise,
you simply end up paying for people to become acquainted with your
case and
leaving while you make a career out of explaining your life to them.
Insist
that professional boundaries be maintained, and use the service she
offers
as intended.-=-
"It works out better" is too strong a statement to make. If a
counsellor has no concept whatsoever of any alternative lifestyle,
there's no sense trying to teach her. And "as intended" at the end
of the passage above is a problem. What the wife "intends" isn't even
what the husband intends, necessarily.
If they've decided to go for help, one of them might be wanting
someone to slowly help untangle all issues, and the other might be
wanting to hire a tiebreaker.
-=-You are not required to act on her wishes...-=-
Unless the agreement in advance was that she was being used as a
tiebreaker. Not that it's a good idea, but if the family is using
money that's putting more strain on the marriage, to ignore the
counsellor would not improve the relationship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
paying the bill to get your work
done, not hers.=-
That sounds nice in theory, but going to a professional means
accepting, to some extent, the professional advice you're paying for.
You're paying the bill for that person's advice. Even if she were
advertised as a mediator rather than counsellor, she could still
mediate in her own preferred way.
-=-It
works out better in the long run to work through it than change
counsellors
and begin from the beginning with a new person all over again.
Otherwise,
you simply end up paying for people to become acquainted with your
case and
leaving while you make a career out of explaining your life to them.
Insist
that professional boundaries be maintained, and use the service she
offers
as intended.-=-
"It works out better" is too strong a statement to make. If a
counsellor has no concept whatsoever of any alternative lifestyle,
there's no sense trying to teach her. And "as intended" at the end
of the passage above is a problem. What the wife "intends" isn't even
what the husband intends, necessarily.
If they've decided to go for help, one of them might be wanting
someone to slowly help untangle all issues, and the other might be
wanting to hire a tiebreaker.
-=-You are not required to act on her wishes...-=-
Unless the agreement in advance was that she was being used as a
tiebreaker. Not that it's a good idea, but if the family is using
money that's putting more strain on the marriage, to ignore the
counsellor would not improve the relationship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A useful way of establishing the boundaries may be to say something
like
"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we
follow
with out son. I'm sure you'll find it interesting, since your work deals
with so much psychology. If you like, after the session, I can tell you
about it over a cup of coffee." Point being, you and your beliefs
matter,
but don't bill us for it. Or, in other words, your problem with it is
not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate
things.-=-
Vidyut, this advice seems more likely to cause strife than peace, in
the family that's asking and in others reading here. Please think
more broadly before you respond. Sometimes it seems you're writing as
though the counsellor were you, the mom were you, and the dad were
you. Sorry to be so blunt, but your advice is always quick and
strong, but sometimes unstable in everyday situations. If you were
getting along really well with your own relatives, that would be a
better place from which to speak.
About this you're wrong: " your problem with it is not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate
things."
Her problem with it is shared by just about 100% of the professionals
they might see, and about that percentage of families around them. So
that IS part of the dynamic, if the husband isn't in favor of all of
unschooling as the mother sees it.
-=-"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we
follow
with [our] son."-=-
Then the counsellor can easily say that that parenting and education
system (being used with children who aren't school-age) is causing
problems in the marriage.
When marriages fall, unschooling almost always goes away. This list
is for helping people understand unschooling in order to do it.
Encouraging any reckless behavior that can remove the ability to
unschool is a bad idea.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like
"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we
follow
with out son. I'm sure you'll find it interesting, since your work deals
with so much psychology. If you like, after the session, I can tell you
about it over a cup of coffee." Point being, you and your beliefs
matter,
but don't bill us for it. Or, in other words, your problem with it is
not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate
things.-=-
Vidyut, this advice seems more likely to cause strife than peace, in
the family that's asking and in others reading here. Please think
more broadly before you respond. Sometimes it seems you're writing as
though the counsellor were you, the mom were you, and the dad were
you. Sorry to be so blunt, but your advice is always quick and
strong, but sometimes unstable in everyday situations. If you were
getting along really well with your own relatives, that would be a
better place from which to speak.
About this you're wrong: " your problem with it is not a
part of the dynamic between me and my husband and don't complicate
things."
Her problem with it is shared by just about 100% of the professionals
they might see, and about that percentage of families around them. So
that IS part of the dynamic, if the husband isn't in favor of all of
unschooling as the mother sees it.
-=-"The sleep timing is a part of a parenting and education system we
follow
with [our] son."-=-
Then the counsellor can easily say that that parenting and education
system (being used with children who aren't school-age) is causing
problems in the marriage.
When marriages fall, unschooling almost always goes away. This list
is for helping people understand unschooling in order to do it.
Encouraging any reckless behavior that can remove the ability to
unschool is a bad idea.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- When we are all driving in the car is often a good time for a
chat.-=-
If the kids are asleep or otherwise occupied, that's fine, but my
husband used to get in the car with my kids and maybe a friend or two
of theirs, and start talking to me about the details of committee
politics where he works, or about car repairs in the distant future.
That's not the best use of a car full of kids. On a long trip maybe,
part of the time, but I remember LONG car trips with my parents where
they talked and we were told to be quiet and it was none of our
business. I don't think that's happening, but it my "what about the
kids?" flag did spring up.
ANYone with young children is going to have issues. "I can totally
relate to this as I also have a 5 year old and almost 3 year old. We
also have never had set bedtimes, so my partner and I do not have a
great deal of time to ourselves. He rings me from work every day at
lunchtime, just so we can catch up on how each other's day is going."
Even with a bedtime, you wouldn't be able to turn the kids off like
robots. Parents would still be exhausted, and kids still wake up.
-=-My view on your counselor is that she should be helping you and
your husband get to the heart of what is troubling your marriage, not
emphasising peripheral things like kids' bedtimes.-=-
I don't think it's seen as a peripheral issue to counsellors. The
traditional schedule is kids in bed by 7:00, parents have two hours
together. If parents come and say "we need more time together" the
counsellor will start with those assumed hours.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chat.-=-
If the kids are asleep or otherwise occupied, that's fine, but my
husband used to get in the car with my kids and maybe a friend or two
of theirs, and start talking to me about the details of committee
politics where he works, or about car repairs in the distant future.
That's not the best use of a car full of kids. On a long trip maybe,
part of the time, but I remember LONG car trips with my parents where
they talked and we were told to be quiet and it was none of our
business. I don't think that's happening, but it my "what about the
kids?" flag did spring up.
ANYone with young children is going to have issues. "I can totally
relate to this as I also have a 5 year old and almost 3 year old. We
also have never had set bedtimes, so my partner and I do not have a
great deal of time to ourselves. He rings me from work every day at
lunchtime, just so we can catch up on how each other's day is going."
Even with a bedtime, you wouldn't be able to turn the kids off like
robots. Parents would still be exhausted, and kids still wake up.
-=-My view on your counselor is that she should be helping you and
your husband get to the heart of what is troubling your marriage, not
emphasising peripheral things like kids' bedtimes.-=-
I don't think it's seen as a peripheral issue to counsellors. The
traditional schedule is kids in bed by 7:00, parents have two hours
together. If parents come and say "we need more time together" the
counsellor will start with those assumed hours.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jen
Cristina,
Maybe this counselor will realize that she has allowed her "stuff" to get in the way of the therapeutic relationship and she may back down. If she validates your experience of feeling patronized and can approach your parenting and homeschooling style with curiosity rather than with an authoritarian attitude than you might be able to work with her. If not I would not hesitate to move onto someone else.
Not every counselor is a good fit for every couple. If you have options in your area I would encourage you to look into them. Finding a counselor that will support your family values could make all the difference in the effectiveness you and your husband will experience. It can take some searching to find the right fit. You and your husband could create a list of interview questions for any potential counselor that can help you decide if they are a good fit for your family. Shop around a little and do not be afraid to know something about the person you are going to be working with.
I am currently finishing my Masters degree in Marriage and Family Therapy. I fully expect my future clients to interview me and to feel confident that we can work together within their value system. I would never want a client of mine to feel judged by me or patronized. If a client ever said that to me I would immediately back off and consider why I was coming off that way. I know it might be hard to think about starting over with someone new but it may be very worth while if you can find someone who can honor your families values.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Maybe this counselor will realize that she has allowed her "stuff" to get in the way of the therapeutic relationship and she may back down. If she validates your experience of feeling patronized and can approach your parenting and homeschooling style with curiosity rather than with an authoritarian attitude than you might be able to work with her. If not I would not hesitate to move onto someone else.
Not every counselor is a good fit for every couple. If you have options in your area I would encourage you to look into them. Finding a counselor that will support your family values could make all the difference in the effectiveness you and your husband will experience. It can take some searching to find the right fit. You and your husband could create a list of interview questions for any potential counselor that can help you decide if they are a good fit for your family. Shop around a little and do not be afraid to know something about the person you are going to be working with.
I am currently finishing my Masters degree in Marriage and Family Therapy. I fully expect my future clients to interview me and to feel confident that we can work together within their value system. I would never want a client of mine to feel judged by me or patronized. If a client ever said that to me I would immediately back off and consider why I was coming off that way. I know it might be hard to think about starting over with someone new but it may be very worth while if you can find someone who can honor your families values.
Best wishes to you and your family.
--- In [email protected], "nowanestof4" <dorina773@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> We have been unschooling our 5yo daughter and soon-to-be 3yo son for one year now.
>
> My husband and I have been having difficulties in our marriage, so about five weeks ago we started seeing a counselor. Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to communicate came up, the counselor looked at me and said, very animatedly, that my children "*need* to be in bed by X-o'clock." She knows that our children are being homeschooled, but does not know the specifics, and my hasty attempt at explaining to her that "we do not have to wake up at six'o'clock, so we do not have to go to bed at eight'o'clock" was received with "so what? they still need to be in bed at X-o'clock. it's about setting limits, and about you and your husband having time for each other." She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my parenting. This completely threw me off, as I am not used to having to defend my parenting style, and hastily told her that it is the result of a lot of research, thinking, and soul-searching (not those exact words though). I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt patronized, which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it ended with her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.
>
> I realize that my husband and I need to explain to her that this is how we have decided to raise our children, and that it should be respected, but I feel she is someone who thinks that there is one right way to do it, the one she approves of. There is also the issue of my husband not being in agreement with some aspects of unschooling, and I fear that someone like her will support and further that.
>
> I would like to know if any of you have had experience with this kind of situation, and what your thoughts are. If you need more specifics, in order to better understand the situation, I will try my best to provide them.
>
> Thank you very much for your time,
>
> Cristina
>
Rebecca M.
Cristina wrote:
Your children's bedtimes are not on the table. You marriage is. Also, I don't believe that it's as simple as bundling the children off to bed and that will fix the marriage.
If your husband isn't comfortable with the way the two of you are raising your kids, then a conversation about that is something a therapist can help mediate. But it's absolutely not her place to impose her values and judgements on your family life.
What happened to Unconditional Positive Regard (a la Carl Rogers) which is the foundation of any therapeutic relationship worth its salt?
- Rebecca (who hasn't read the other replies yet, in case I'm saying what's already been said)
>**"so what? they still need to be in bed at X-o'clock. it's about setting limits, and about you and your husband having time for each other." She was adamant about this, and seemed judgmental about my parenting. **In all seriousness, I believe you need a different marriage counsellor.
Your children's bedtimes are not on the table. You marriage is. Also, I don't believe that it's as simple as bundling the children off to bed and that will fix the marriage.
>**I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt patronized, which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it ended with her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.**Absolutely, you need to find a different therapist who supports "attachment" parenting, if not unschooling.
If your husband isn't comfortable with the way the two of you are raising your kids, then a conversation about that is something a therapist can help mediate. But it's absolutely not her place to impose her values and judgements on your family life.
What happened to Unconditional Positive Regard (a la Carl Rogers) which is the foundation of any therapeutic relationship worth its salt?
- Rebecca (who hasn't read the other replies yet, in case I'm saying what's already been said)
Rebecca M.
--- In [email protected], Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
In technical terms, there may be some "counter-transference" going on for the therapist, so the whole "unschooling" factor is a non-issue in this situation. If the therapist can't take care of the counter-transference herself, it's not a healthy situation for the family to be in and will simply be a waste of money and time and emotional energy. If the therapist is aware of what happened for her, Cristina should be getting an apology call. If not, then I still say find someone who will support all the relationships in the family.
My husband and I have talked about people we know who leave their kids for extended holidays, etc. and we just don't get it. Sure, having younger children can put a stressor on the relationship, but so can finances, outside relationships, division of labour in the home, etc. But our family is our family and our marriage is about us, sure, but it's about us in the context of our family. Putting two of those family members to bed at a set time is not going to all of a sudden change the dynamics in our family.
I'm always surprised when I hear professionals go for "simple" solutions like this (as if they work). I know I shouldn't be surprised but I am.
- Rebecca
> Don't accuse, get defensive, angry, etc. Just accept that as aThe role of the therapist is to be a "container" for the client, not the other way around. If Cristina approaches her therapist like this (as it's a level of "care-taking"), it is a shift in roles and will muddy the client/counsellor relationship.
> person, she feels strongly about her own beliefs and her involvement with
> your case makes it feel intimate and urgent that she do something if she
> feels that things are going on a track with potential for trouble. Its nice
> she's so involved and cares, but she could help more by helping the two of
> you learn to dialogue around issues.... blah,,, blah.
In technical terms, there may be some "counter-transference" going on for the therapist, so the whole "unschooling" factor is a non-issue in this situation. If the therapist can't take care of the counter-transference herself, it's not a healthy situation for the family to be in and will simply be a waste of money and time and emotional energy. If the therapist is aware of what happened for her, Cristina should be getting an apology call. If not, then I still say find someone who will support all the relationships in the family.
My husband and I have talked about people we know who leave their kids for extended holidays, etc. and we just don't get it. Sure, having younger children can put a stressor on the relationship, but so can finances, outside relationships, division of labour in the home, etc. But our family is our family and our marriage is about us, sure, but it's about us in the context of our family. Putting two of those family members to bed at a set time is not going to all of a sudden change the dynamics in our family.
I'm always surprised when I hear professionals go for "simple" solutions like this (as if they work). I know I shouldn't be surprised but I am.
- Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
-=-What happened to Unconditional Positive Regard (a la Carl Rogers)
which is the foundation of any therapeutic relationship worth its
salt?-=-
This assumption about how therapy will be seems more skewed than the
therapist's assumption that a non-typical lifestyle is causing some of
the marital problems.
Therapy comes from different starting places, and not all are Carl
Rogers. Some involve the Bible. Some involve a social-work point of
view. There are still some Freudians around who want you to talk for
years without feedback. Some specialize in recovery from substance
abuse (directly or indirectly) and are unlikely to show any
unconditional positive regard for drug or alcohol use.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
which is the foundation of any therapeutic relationship worth its
salt?-=-
This assumption about how therapy will be seems more skewed than the
therapist's assumption that a non-typical lifestyle is causing some of
the marital problems.
Therapy comes from different starting places, and not all are Carl
Rogers. Some involve the Bible. Some involve a social-work point of
view. There are still some Freudians around who want you to talk for
years without feedback. Some specialize in recovery from substance
abuse (directly or indirectly) and are unlikely to show any
unconditional positive regard for drug or alcohol use.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
> My husband and I have been having difficulties in our marriage, so about five weeks ago we started seeing a counselor. Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to communicate came up, the counselor looked at me and said, very animatedly, that my children "*need* to be in bed by X-o'clock."A few years ago, I was seeing a therapist who was really helping me. I don't know why I was originally referred to her, because she specialized in children, but she was great for me. She often worked with kids in our local public schools, and this colored her perspective in interesting ways--she really sees the problems that kids have in school, and on at least two occasions told me that I should under no circumstances let my kids attend the schools in our district, which are widely considered the best in the area, because of the very toxic student culture. At the same time, she had this huge blind spot of assuming that adapting to school was the kid's responsibility, and definitely had that "school is like the weather--you can't avoid it" mentality. She once told me that gifted kids are not going to get their needs met in school and they "just have to learn to deal with boredom."
When she made comments suggesting that I do things differently with Eric (he was my only kid at the time), similar to your therapist telling you to put your kids to bed earlier, I just let it go. I didn't say, "I don't do things that way," or lay out my reasons for not putting Eric in time-out or whatever. I just moved on. She was helping me so much in other ways that I was not going to walk out over her expectation that I'd be an "authoritarian" parent, setting limits for my kid in conventional ways, even when she was suggesting that as a solution to problems I was having.
So, for me, it was a matter of asking myself whether she was helping me enough that I could cope with the occasional comment or suggestion I wasn't comfortable with. She definitely was. If parenting issues had been more central to what I was dealing with, and we were having to discuss them all the time, that might have changed.
You have a more complicated situation because there are three of you in the room and you and your husband are not 100% in agreement. But for me with my therapist, it was helpful to remember that I did not have to defend every choice to her, and I didn't have to take every suggestion.
In your situation, I might have just replied, "That may be harder than it sounds...I'd like to talk about some other ideas, too," or, "hmmm...OK. What else could we also try?" or let a moment of silence just sit there and then started talking about whatever I needed to talk about. It is possible to be helped very much by a therapist you don't agree with 100%, and I usually just let comments like that pass by without engaging them. If it were happening a lot, it might change the equation.
You said you weren't used to defending your parenting; one thing I've gotten better at over the years is realizing I don't have to. Not everyone has to understand and approve of what we do. Recently, a mother of five kids told me, "You need to crack down on Yehva, or she'll be completely out of control by the time she's six!"
I just said, "We just don't think about kids that way at our house."
She repeated how important it was for me to "discipline" Yehva. I was upset and felt attacked, sure, but all I said was, "Well, time will tell." I am always happy to answer questions asked in good faith, but I no longer feel the need to have everyone around me think I'm doing the right thing.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Rebecca M.
You're right, Sandra. There are many approaches to the helping relationship.
In the University grad level counselling program I know about, unconditional positive regard is considered to be the foundation of a healthy therapeutic relationship (and the roots of empathy), regardless of the counsellor's overall theoretical orientation (although most counsellors/psychotherapists I know use an eclectic approach). I'm speaking from my personal experience.
Psychiatry (where a lot of psychodynamic theory still lives) is a whole different kettle of fish.
- Rebecca
In the University grad level counselling program I know about, unconditional positive regard is considered to be the foundation of a healthy therapeutic relationship (and the roots of empathy), regardless of the counsellor's overall theoretical orientation (although most counsellors/psychotherapists I know use an eclectic approach). I'm speaking from my personal experience.
Psychiatry (where a lot of psychodynamic theory still lives) is a whole different kettle of fish.
> Some specialize in recovery from substanceUnconditional positive regard for the client, not the behaviour.
> abuse (directly or indirectly) and are unlikely to show any
> unconditional positive regard for drug or alcohol use.
- Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Some specialize in recovery from substance
The client is a couple. If they don't agree, then how can positive
regard for both be foremost?
The goal is to keep the marriage together. If having the kids up so
much the parents don't get time alone is harming the marriage (IF
that's part of what's harming the marriage; we don't even need to
know, but can assume it might be), then that IS showing positive
regard, to suggest that something might help.
Sometimes people join this list and are cranky that they aren't shown
unconditional positive regard, as individuals, or for their
recommended or reported behavior. The "client" of this list is
unschooling. We're trying to support unschooling. And in a case in
which a parent on this list is wanting us to approve or support
behavior that's making a child unhappy, we're likely to side with the
child.
But for unschooling to work, the parents need to be in agreement about
unschooling first.
If unschooling is adversely affecting a marriage, the pro-unschooling
parent should back down some, or even all the way, rather than stand
by unschooling with the other partner as "the enemy."
If I go out right now and buy myself a yacht, and then tell my husband
"we own a yacht," or we own a contract to make payments on a yacht, he
would surely object. I might find myself without a yacht and without
a husband.
Unschooling can do that too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> abuse (directly or indirectly) and are unlikely to show anyUnconditional positive regard for the client, not the behaviour.-=-
> unconditional positive regard for drug or alcohol use.
The client is a couple. If they don't agree, then how can positive
regard for both be foremost?
The goal is to keep the marriage together. If having the kids up so
much the parents don't get time alone is harming the marriage (IF
that's part of what's harming the marriage; we don't even need to
know, but can assume it might be), then that IS showing positive
regard, to suggest that something might help.
Sometimes people join this list and are cranky that they aren't shown
unconditional positive regard, as individuals, or for their
recommended or reported behavior. The "client" of this list is
unschooling. We're trying to support unschooling. And in a case in
which a parent on this list is wanting us to approve or support
behavior that's making a child unhappy, we're likely to side with the
child.
But for unschooling to work, the parents need to be in agreement about
unschooling first.
If unschooling is adversely affecting a marriage, the pro-unschooling
parent should back down some, or even all the way, rather than stand
by unschooling with the other partner as "the enemy."
If I go out right now and buy myself a yacht, and then tell my husband
"we own a yacht," or we own a contract to make payments on a yacht, he
would surely object. I might find myself without a yacht and without
a husband.
Unschooling can do that too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-In your situation, I might have just replied, "That may be harder
than it sounds...I'd like to talk about some other ideas, too," or,
"hmmm...OK. What else could we also try?" or let a moment of silence
just sit there and then started talking about whatever I needed to
talk about. -=-
It depends what issue had been stated just before that advice.
If someone went in and said "I have a gambling problem, and it's about
to cost my my marriage," and the counsellor said "You need to destroy
your casino cards, throw the mailing away when they arrive, and don't
even go to the casino's at all," if the person said "hmmmm... OK.
What else could I also try?" that would seem to be a waste of money.
I'm not saying putting kids to bed is the only thing to try. I'm
saying going to a mainstream marriage therapist is not likely to net a
person an attachment parenting advisor.
A friend of mine once asked me during a gathering (party or something,
but several people in the room) to tell me why my chocolate chip
cookies were better than hers, and to tell me how I make them.
I said, "First, I use real butter..." and I was cut off by her
laughing and saying, "Well I'm not going to do that. Then what?"
Then nothing. She was using margarine and her cookies weren't
working. "Then what" was going to be to refrigerate the dough, but I
didn't bother to finish, because she rejected the basis of the recipe.
If she had been paying by the hour, should I have slowly gone on
through the other steps, not believing it was going to help? Some
counsellors will; some won't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
than it sounds...I'd like to talk about some other ideas, too," or,
"hmmm...OK. What else could we also try?" or let a moment of silence
just sit there and then started talking about whatever I needed to
talk about. -=-
It depends what issue had been stated just before that advice.
If someone went in and said "I have a gambling problem, and it's about
to cost my my marriage," and the counsellor said "You need to destroy
your casino cards, throw the mailing away when they arrive, and don't
even go to the casino's at all," if the person said "hmmmm... OK.
What else could I also try?" that would seem to be a waste of money.
I'm not saying putting kids to bed is the only thing to try. I'm
saying going to a mainstream marriage therapist is not likely to net a
person an attachment parenting advisor.
A friend of mine once asked me during a gathering (party or something,
but several people in the room) to tell me why my chocolate chip
cookies were better than hers, and to tell me how I make them.
I said, "First, I use real butter..." and I was cut off by her
laughing and saying, "Well I'm not going to do that. Then what?"
Then nothing. She was using margarine and her cookies weren't
working. "Then what" was going to be to refrigerate the dough, but I
didn't bother to finish, because she rejected the basis of the recipe.
If she had been paying by the hour, should I have slowly gone on
through the other steps, not believing it was going to help? Some
counsellors will; some won't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
I have been to many counselors over the years and have not yet come across one who understands or truly supports unschooling. That being said, I have found counselors who respect that this is the way I choose to care for my children. I have to be very firm that I'm not interested in changing the way I do things with my children. Once they meet my children, they are very impressed. I usually get comments about how pleasant and intelligent and engaged my children are compared to other children that they see in their work.
From my experience, I think there are two things you can do. You can explain to this counselor that this is the way you do things and that you haven't come to her for parenting advice. Loan her some of the books you've read on this. Tell her that you expect her to respect you on this issue because there is no wiggle room.
The other thing you can do is try to find another counselor who's at least more understanding and respectful of your choices in this. I have found that licensed clinical social workers are a lot better at that then therapists, counselors, psychologists and psychiatrists.
Alysia
From my experience, I think there are two things you can do. You can explain to this counselor that this is the way you do things and that you haven't come to her for parenting advice. Loan her some of the books you've read on this. Tell her that you expect her to respect you on this issue because there is no wiggle room.
The other thing you can do is try to find another counselor who's at least more understanding and respectful of your choices in this. I have found that licensed clinical social workers are a lot better at that then therapists, counselors, psychologists and psychiatrists.
Alysia
Rebecca M.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
The client is not the marriage. The clients are the people who are working through their relationship. And they both deserve to be respected.
Your arguments here almost sound like you are supporting the therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The situation, as I saw it, was that the therapist was imposing her p.o.v. about proper parenting practices (oooo, alliteration!) on the marital relationship, causing her client discomfort.
If there is a disagreement about parenting practices, then it certainly is something for the couple to sort out and yes, it may mean making some changes and compromises if both parties want the relationship to work. But it's not an all or nothing situation, surely.
But I do agree that this list is not about supporting individual posters and is more about supporting the ideas and actions of unschooling.
I suspect it is possible to say the hard things kindly, though, while showing positive regard for the poster.
- Rebecca
> The client is a couple. If they don't agree, then how can positiveA skilled therapist can do it. Surely it's possible to see two opposing view points at the same time and not take sides, yet help each party feel equally supported? Surely we do this with our kids all the time when they have a conflict or disagreement with each other?
> regard for both be foremost?
> The goal is to keep the marriage together.That's not always the goal of family counselling. It's not always in the best interests of all parties to keep the marriage together. I know that you believe that it is because without a cohesive family unit, it will take unschooling out of the picture altogether (although I do know several single parents who have found ways to have their children learn at home or unschool, so it's not impossible).
The client is not the marriage. The clients are the people who are working through their relationship. And they both deserve to be respected.
Your arguments here almost sound like you are supporting the therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> But for unschooling to work, the parents need to be in agreement aboutCristina never said that there was a disagreement about unschooling or parenting in the marriage (I missed it if she did). And we certainly don't need those details, but we are assuming quite a lot when we discuss this situation further without this information.
> unschooling first.
> If unschooling is adversely affecting a marriage, the pro-unschooling
> parent should back down some, or even all the way, rather than stand
> by unschooling with the other partner as "the enemy."
The situation, as I saw it, was that the therapist was imposing her p.o.v. about proper parenting practices (oooo, alliteration!) on the marital relationship, causing her client discomfort.
If there is a disagreement about parenting practices, then it certainly is something for the couple to sort out and yes, it may mean making some changes and compromises if both parties want the relationship to work. But it's not an all or nothing situation, surely.
> Sometimes people join this list and are cranky that they aren't shownThis list is quite different than a therapeutic relationship between a client and a counsellor. I'm not sure the comparison carries well.
> unconditional positive regard, as individuals, or for their
> recommended or reported behavior. The "client" of this list is
> unschooling. We're trying to support unschooling. And in a case in
> which a parent on this list is wanting us to approve or support
> behavior that's making a child unhappy, we're likely to side with the
> child.
But I do agree that this list is not about supporting individual posters and is more about supporting the ideas and actions of unschooling.
I suspect it is possible to say the hard things kindly, though, while showing positive regard for the poster.
- Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
-=From my experience, I think there are two things you can do. You can
explain to this counselor that this is the way you do things and that
you haven't come to her for parenting advice. Loan her some of the
books you've read on this. Tell her that you expect her to respect you
on this issue because there is no wiggle room.-=-
If I were the counsellor and a husband and wife were not agreeing
about their child-rearing practices and the mother loaned me books and
said she expected me to respect that because there was no wiggle room,
I would point at THAT as a marriage problem.
There MUST be "wiggle room." Unless and until the parents together
declare "no wiggle room," unschooling is NOT a done deal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
explain to this counselor that this is the way you do things and that
you haven't come to her for parenting advice. Loan her some of the
books you've read on this. Tell her that you expect her to respect you
on this issue because there is no wiggle room.-=-
If I were the counsellor and a husband and wife were not agreeing
about their child-rearing practices and the mother loaned me books and
said she expected me to respect that because there was no wiggle room,
I would point at THAT as a marriage problem.
There MUST be "wiggle room." Unless and until the parents together
declare "no wiggle room," unschooling is NOT a done deal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that you believe that it is because without a cohesive
family unit, it will take unschooling out of the picture altogether
(although I do know several single parents who have found ways to have
their children learn at home or unschool, so it's not impossible). -=-
Single parents, yes.
Divorced parents?
These several single parents you know... if any of them are divorced
and the divorce had anything to do with unschooling, are they still
unschooling? Do you know any whose divorce had nothing to do with
unschooling at all, but still the unschooling was undone?
I know one of the latter. The dad was the most pro-homeschool of the
two. He was the stay-at-home parent. When they divorced, he had
nothing to use against the ex wife, so he went for the unschooling.
It shocked everyone who knew them. It made no sense. But divorcing
people, like wounded animals, put the claws and teeth out irrationally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
family unit, it will take unschooling out of the picture altogether
(although I do know several single parents who have found ways to have
their children learn at home or unschool, so it's not impossible). -=-
Single parents, yes.
Divorced parents?
These several single parents you know... if any of them are divorced
and the divorce had anything to do with unschooling, are they still
unschooling? Do you know any whose divorce had nothing to do with
unschooling at all, but still the unschooling was undone?
I know one of the latter. The dad was the most pro-homeschool of the
two. He was the stay-at-home parent. When they divorced, he had
nothing to use against the ex wife, so he went for the unschooling.
It shocked everyone who knew them. It made no sense. But divorcing
people, like wounded animals, put the claws and teeth out irrationally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I suspect it is possible to say the hard things kindly, though,
while showing positive regard for the poster.-=-
Every member of the group is welcome to demonstrate that.
Nothing about the group guarantees that.
The purpose of the group stands.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
while showing positive regard for the poster.-=-
Every member of the group is welcome to demonstrate that.
Nothing about the group guarantees that.
The purpose of the group stands.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your arguments here almost sound like you are supporting the
therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's
your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
I'm trying to keep the discussion on the middle of the table where it
can be looked at clearly. It's easy to turn something into a protest
or pep rally and lose all sense of balance.
Extreme advice based on ideal assumptions probably won't help keep the
marriage together and help unschooling to thrive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's
your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
I'm trying to keep the discussion on the middle of the table where it
can be looked at clearly. It's easy to turn something into a protest
or pep rally and lose all sense of balance.
Extreme advice based on ideal assumptions probably won't help keep the
marriage together and help unschooling to thrive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your arguments here almost sound like you are supporting the
therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's
your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
This question is harsh. I kept thinking about it after I responded.
The therapist and her approach and her reactions are real. She won't
change due to support or lack thereof on this list. She might not
change from a direct request from a client.
We're not talking theoreticals here. Someone has a pressing need.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
therapist and her approach and reactions, but I don't think that's
your intention. Correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
This question is harsh. I kept thinking about it after I responded.
The therapist and her approach and her reactions are real. She won't
change due to support or lack thereof on this list. She might not
change from a direct request from a client.
We're not talking theoreticals here. Someone has a pressing need.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 20, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
It might be possible that _right_now_ in the life of a family, getting the kids to bed earlier is the best available solution to the problem of parents needing time together. It might be helpful, and certainly in line with unschooling principles, to explore other options like having a babysitter and a date night, or the parents getting up a little earlier for a private breakfast together, or (something that has been a lifeline for me and David) IM-ing a lot during the day. But maybe the solution that comes closest to meeting everyone's needs is moving toward an earlier bedtime. Or maybe it's a triage situation: the marriage has to be saved before anything else can happen, akin to stopping the arterial bleeding and only then attending to the little cuts and bruises. Or maybe there's a husband or wife who needs to feel loved and valued before he/she can feel generous about giving more time and consideration to the kids...
I almost replied to my own post about my experience with my therapist to say: On the other hand, it might be worth giving a couple of minute's thought to whether there is a kernel of truth in what the therapist is saying. Maybe not the blanket Kids Need to Be in Bed by Eight statement, but that getting kids to bed earlier should maybe not be dismissed out of hand. The word "arbitrary" hasn't come up here lately that I've noticed, but it's useful to remember: unschooling doesn't necessarily mean No Limits, No Set Bedtime Ever, but something more like "No Arbitrary Limits." Maybe there's a loving way to transition the kids to an earlier bedtime or an earlier "in bed with something special but quiet to do" time.
When I was so sick for 18 months, I started seriously considering whether the kids would be better off in school. I'm very committed to unschooling but had I not begun to improve a few months ago, school, with activities and resources, might have become a better choice than continuing to be at home with a sick, exhausted, discouraged mom.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> The goal is to keep the marriage together. If having the kids up soSometimes the best available solution _right_now_ is not the best solution forever, or the most ideal solution. That's often my response when people ask me if I don't feel like, I dunno, a cultural appropriator or culture-killer for adopting a black baby into a white family: Sure, it would be great if there had a been a stable black family available to take her. If such a family had been available, I am 100% sure the birthmother would have picked them instead of us. We were the best _available_ family. Maybe it's ideal for all black children to be placed with black families, but that is just not possible. We're the compromise; we're the just-good-enough solution. Much better than Yehva's other options, which were staying with a drug-addicted mother, or being raised in poverty by a relative like the birthmother's other kids, or being removed from her birthmother to foster care.
> much the parents don't get time alone is harming the marriage (IF
> that's part of what's harming the marriage; we don't even need to
> know, but can assume it might be), then that IS showing positive
> regard, to suggest that something might help.
It might be possible that _right_now_ in the life of a family, getting the kids to bed earlier is the best available solution to the problem of parents needing time together. It might be helpful, and certainly in line with unschooling principles, to explore other options like having a babysitter and a date night, or the parents getting up a little earlier for a private breakfast together, or (something that has been a lifeline for me and David) IM-ing a lot during the day. But maybe the solution that comes closest to meeting everyone's needs is moving toward an earlier bedtime. Or maybe it's a triage situation: the marriage has to be saved before anything else can happen, akin to stopping the arterial bleeding and only then attending to the little cuts and bruises. Or maybe there's a husband or wife who needs to feel loved and valued before he/she can feel generous about giving more time and consideration to the kids...
I almost replied to my own post about my experience with my therapist to say: On the other hand, it might be worth giving a couple of minute's thought to whether there is a kernel of truth in what the therapist is saying. Maybe not the blanket Kids Need to Be in Bed by Eight statement, but that getting kids to bed earlier should maybe not be dismissed out of hand. The word "arbitrary" hasn't come up here lately that I've noticed, but it's useful to remember: unschooling doesn't necessarily mean No Limits, No Set Bedtime Ever, but something more like "No Arbitrary Limits." Maybe there's a loving way to transition the kids to an earlier bedtime or an earlier "in bed with something special but quiet to do" time.
When I was so sick for 18 months, I started seriously considering whether the kids would be better off in school. I'm very committed to unschooling but had I not begun to improve a few months ago, school, with activities and resources, might have become a better choice than continuing to be at home with a sick, exhausted, discouraged mom.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
alexandriapalonia
Assuming that your husband works fulltime outside the home, if your children aren't in bed at 8pm, when would you otherwise find time to communicate?
In my own life, my husband is generally out of the house and at work by 6 or 7am, and is often not home until 7pm. This doesn't give us a lot of time together, and still less time together without our daughter. If we needed more "time to communicate [presumably without the children] ," we would need to carve out some time between 7pm and 5 or 6am . . . which, in our case, would probably be in the evening, since getting up any earlier would be physically hard on my husband.
If you were willing to get a babysitter, and to go out somewhere (or have the children go out with the sitter) to have "time to communicate," the bedtime wouldn't be an issue, because you'd be creating time alone for the communication. This is a far more expensive solution, since one imagines you'd need the babysitter every night for an extended period of time, which I imagine is why the counselor didn't suggest it (because it's likely cost-prohibitive, and she's interested in you having a longterm communication solution). You could, as I think of it, get an evening nanny. A live-in evening nanny would solve the physical end (providing care for the children while allowing the parents the freedom and flexibility to take whatever time in the evening, any evening, to work on their relationship without interruption).
But I agree with Sandra -- it's better for children to have an artificially-imposed bedtime and two (hopefully happily) married parents than it is to stick to your no-bedtime-because-we-don't-have-to-get-up guns and a broken family.
Andrea
In my own life, my husband is generally out of the house and at work by 6 or 7am, and is often not home until 7pm. This doesn't give us a lot of time together, and still less time together without our daughter. If we needed more "time to communicate [presumably without the children] ," we would need to carve out some time between 7pm and 5 or 6am . . . which, in our case, would probably be in the evening, since getting up any earlier would be physically hard on my husband.
If you were willing to get a babysitter, and to go out somewhere (or have the children go out with the sitter) to have "time to communicate," the bedtime wouldn't be an issue, because you'd be creating time alone for the communication. This is a far more expensive solution, since one imagines you'd need the babysitter every night for an extended period of time, which I imagine is why the counselor didn't suggest it (because it's likely cost-prohibitive, and she's interested in you having a longterm communication solution). You could, as I think of it, get an evening nanny. A live-in evening nanny would solve the physical end (providing care for the children while allowing the parents the freedom and flexibility to take whatever time in the evening, any evening, to work on their relationship without interruption).
But I agree with Sandra -- it's better for children to have an artificially-imposed bedtime and two (hopefully happily) married parents than it is to stick to your no-bedtime-because-we-don't-have-to-get-up guns and a broken family.
Andrea
> Today, when the issue of my husband and I not having enough time to communicate came up, the counselor looked at me and said, very animatedly, that my children "*need* to be in bed by X-o'clock." She knows that our children are being homeschooled, but does not know the specifics, and my hasty attempt at explaining to her that "we do not have to wake up at six'o'clock, so we do not have to go to bed at eight'o'clock" was received with "so what? they still need to be in bed at X-o'clock. it's about setting limits, and about you and your husband having time for each other."
> Cristina
>
Rebecca M.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.**
If the therapist "got upset" and was "judgmental", then it's time to find someone who won't do these things when a client feels defensive or doesn't agree with the therapist's suggestions (regardless of what we call it).
- Rebecca
>No, she won't.
> The therapist and her approach and her reactions are real. She won't
> change due to support or lack thereof on this list.
> She might notProbably not.
> change from a direct request from a client.
> We're not talking theoreticals here. Someone has a pressing need.Exactly. This was the need stated:
>**I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt patronized,which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it ended with
her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.**
If the therapist "got upset" and was "judgmental", then it's time to find someone who won't do these things when a client feels defensive or doesn't agree with the therapist's suggestions (regardless of what we call it).
- Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
-=->**I was at a loss of what to say, and got upset, told her I felt
patronized,
which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it
ended with
her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.**
-=-If the therapist "got upset" and was "judgmental", then it's time
to find someone who won't do these things when a client feels
defensive or doesn't agree with the therapist's suggestions
(regardless of what we call it). -=-
Or it's potentially even more useful to suggest that the original
poster could see the whole thing a different way.
Perhaps the therapist wasn't so upset and judgmental as the client was
at a loss, and upset, and became confrontational.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patronized,
which in turn got her upset, and I feel it did not end well, that it
ended with
her being judgmental of me, and with me feeling defensive.**
-=-If the therapist "got upset" and was "judgmental", then it's time
to find someone who won't do these things when a client feels
defensive or doesn't agree with the therapist's suggestions
(regardless of what we call it). -=-
Or it's potentially even more useful to suggest that the original
poster could see the whole thing a different way.
Perhaps the therapist wasn't so upset and judgmental as the client was
at a loss, and upset, and became confrontational.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== Even with a bedtime, you wouldn't be able to turn the kids off like robots. Parents would still be exhausted, and kids still wake up.==
I know this from my own experience and from listening to friends complain about bedtime. With my oldest, I worked and he went to school so we needed to be in bed by a certain time to make sure we got enough sleep for the next day. Also, as a single parent I thought I needed/deserved some quiet, alone time at night after my son was in bed. It rarely worked out that way even when I read to him or sat or laid down with him until he fell asleep. He almost invariably would be up at least once to go to the bathroom or need a drink of water or something. Sometimes he just didn't want to go to sleep and it became a huge power struggle and we were both miserable. I rarely got my extended period of quiet, alone time.
==I don't think it's seen as a peripheral issue to counsellors. The traditional schedule is kids in bed by 7:00, parents have two hours together. If parents come and say "we need more time together" the counsellor will start with those assumed hours.==
Yep, that has been my experience. I've never gone specifically for marriage counseling but my husband comes to counseling with me as often as he can. One of my husband's most important complaints is that we don't get that couples time with 3 kids. Bedtimes and date nights and the like always come up with the counselors. That's when I firmly say that's not an option for me because of whatever circumstances there may be at the time. If the counselor continues to push the issue, I just tell her (I tend to seek only female medical professionals) that I don't think things are working out and I'm going to look for someone else.
I should probably add that my husband understands that as the kids get older we do get more and more time for just the two of us if we are creative. The last time my husband was home we both were up in the morning before the kids and then for a little while when they were occupied with watching Saturday morning cartoons. My husband and I sat at the kitchen table and talked for about an hour. My husband commented that he would start making more of an effort to be available for such times, which previously he hadn't been because he'd get up and get involved in something. So this is not an issue that is threatening our marriage. It's just something we want to improve upon.
Alysia
I know this from my own experience and from listening to friends complain about bedtime. With my oldest, I worked and he went to school so we needed to be in bed by a certain time to make sure we got enough sleep for the next day. Also, as a single parent I thought I needed/deserved some quiet, alone time at night after my son was in bed. It rarely worked out that way even when I read to him or sat or laid down with him until he fell asleep. He almost invariably would be up at least once to go to the bathroom or need a drink of water or something. Sometimes he just didn't want to go to sleep and it became a huge power struggle and we were both miserable. I rarely got my extended period of quiet, alone time.
==I don't think it's seen as a peripheral issue to counsellors. The traditional schedule is kids in bed by 7:00, parents have two hours together. If parents come and say "we need more time together" the counsellor will start with those assumed hours.==
Yep, that has been my experience. I've never gone specifically for marriage counseling but my husband comes to counseling with me as often as he can. One of my husband's most important complaints is that we don't get that couples time with 3 kids. Bedtimes and date nights and the like always come up with the counselors. That's when I firmly say that's not an option for me because of whatever circumstances there may be at the time. If the counselor continues to push the issue, I just tell her (I tend to seek only female medical professionals) that I don't think things are working out and I'm going to look for someone else.
I should probably add that my husband understands that as the kids get older we do get more and more time for just the two of us if we are creative. The last time my husband was home we both were up in the morning before the kids and then for a little while when they were occupied with watching Saturday morning cartoons. My husband and I sat at the kitchen table and talked for about an hour. My husband commented that he would start making more of an effort to be available for such times, which previously he hadn't been because he'd get up and get involved in something. So this is not an issue that is threatening our marriage. It's just something we want to improve upon.
Alysia
keetry
== When she made comments suggesting that I do things differently with Eric (he was my only kid at the time), similar to your therapist telling you to put your kids to bed earlier, I just let it go. I didn't say, "I don't do things that way," or lay out my reasons for not putting Eric in time-out or whatever. I just moved on.==
This is a find approach if you are the only one getting counseling. However, it won't work for a couple if both partners aren't on the same page. If I just let it roll off because it's not an option for me but my spouse takes it to heart, there will be even more problems at home within the marriage.
Alysia
This is a find approach if you are the only one getting counseling. However, it won't work for a couple if both partners aren't on the same page. If I just let it roll off because it's not an option for me but my spouse takes it to heart, there will be even more problems at home within the marriage.
Alysia