Sandra Dodd

This was me responding to a blog comment assuring all readers that all
good parents unschool, whether their kids go to school or not... it
got stirred up again (link below). This is the problem with
counting years before school age. I don't count Kirby's first four
years, even though we were doing all the things we do now, because we
figured he would go to school. Even if we had planned to homeschool,
if we sent him to kindergarten, I wouldn't have said "we unschooled
him for four years."

But that's me. It's very important to me to be clear and truthful.
Others don't have those scruples, and sometimes it pisses me off.
Then I remind myself there have always been and will always be
unscrupulous people. So the task for anyone here who's reading about
unschooling is to remember that as well. Not all sources and advice
are equally useful or equally based on knowledge and experience.

==================

A child who goes to school for nine or ten months a year earns that
summer vacation and shouldn't need mom-summer-school.

-=- For example, my children were unschooled exclusively for the first
three years of their lives (like many children are)-=-

A child who went to school at the age of four was not unschooled for
three years before that.

Unschooling is instead of regular schooling, not around the edges of.
It's quite dismissive of unschooling to say "Oh, we all do that."

Sandra
=====================

http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html

When someone joins the military, does their time in grade count from
the time they sign an enlistment form? From the time they decided
they would join? From the time they played army as a kid? There is
"is" and there is "isn't."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/14/2010 8:32 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> Then I remind myself there have always been and will always be
> unscrupulous people. So the task for anyone here who's reading about
> unschooling is to remember that as well. Not all sources and advice
> are equally useful or equally based on knowledge and experience.

And there are people who have staked making a living on "selling"
themselves, so they tell people what they think they want to hear.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-And there are people who have staked making a living on "selling"
themselves, so they tell people what they think they want to hear.-=-

Pam's been there when I lost a couple of "jobs."

I had been asked to write a column for a California homeschooling
newsletter, because their supporters were very anti-school, and I
wasn't. Not long after they published the third thing I sent them,
which was Public School on your Own Terms (based on truth and
experience), I was no longer a columnist. That didn't break my heart.

I was asked to write a column for Home Education Magazine. It didn't
pay much. $50 a column at first, and later $100. Every other month.
That used to pay for my webpage and internet, and that's about it.
When people online complained that I wasn't nice (i.e. I wasn't
telling them what they wanted to hear), and they told the editor that
they would not renew their subscriptions to HEM if I was kept, I was
"fired." No matter that the three noisemakers weren't even
subscribers. I was hurt because it was petty and unfair, but I
didn't make a deal about it at all. When people wrote to ask what
happened to me, or to say I was the only reason they had subscribed
(my supporters being actual readers of the magazine, and not
troublemakers), they weren't treated very nicely.

That's all old, old news, and Helen H. and I are on good terms now,
but I continue to be unwilling to make nice to gain numbers (of
readers, site hits, list members, facebook friends or whatever it
might be). If someone asks a question I don't coo and say sweet
nothings. I offer what seems might help their children have a better
life. That's not always convenient for the parent who was asking, the
advice they're getting, but if we console and comfort parents about
their rotten, selfish children (as SO many parents want to be
comforted), that leads in the opposite direction from unschooling. I
tell them to stop thinking of their children as rotten and selfish if
they want the relationship to be strong and good. I do it because
I've seen it help, I've seen relationships with teens (my teens, and
many others).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I got this response, on that blog-comment discussion. It's irritating
and I have a chat to run in five minutes.

If someone's in the mood to explain what might be the problem with
claiming "three years of exclusive unschooling" with kids who were in
school from the age of four on, there's an opportunity.

------------------

Lesli has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what do you
think?":

"A child who goes to school for nine or ten months a year earns that
summer vacation and shouldn't need mom-summer-school."

First, it's not a need, it's a want...actually, more of a lifestyle.
Also, they don't really "earn" anything in the way I think you mean
it; my kids enjoy school, it's not work they toil at for which they
then need to be rewarded.

"A child who went to school at the age of four was not unschooled for
three years before that."

Are you suggesting that those first three years are different from
those of a child that does not go to school at age four? If so, how?

"It's quite dismissive of unschooling to say "Oh, we all do that.""

I agree in general, but, regarding some specific comments that are
made by people who insinuate that unschooling has a monopoly on
particular things, my feelings hold true. For instance, you wrote:

"With unschooling, what is productive is whatever leads toward more
learning, better understanding, mental skills, maturity, compassion,
awareness."

--------------------

http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

On May 14, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> But that's me. It's very important to me to be clear and truthful.
> Others don't have those scruples, and sometimes it pisses me off.

I understand your concerns about people who say they unschooled kids who were younger than school age, but in my experience the fact that David and I were thinking about unschooling means that we did and do parent our kids really differently from most people even in the years before they are "school" age. We're not attachment parents, which is a starting point for unschooling for some families, because we've slept with some of our kids and not with others and used the sling with some at some times and not with others at other times, because we were trying so hard to pay attention to our kids' needs rather than adhere to an ideology. Two of my three were bottle-fed, and I feel 100% OK about that, whereas most parents in my real-life circle describe themselves as "lactivists."

Lots of people whose kids are below school age are big on setting limits, imposing discipline (I just a couple of weeks ago had a mom tell me I ought to be cracking down more on Yehva, who is 2, because otherwise she'll be "completely out of control" by the time she's six), using time-outs, controlling food, restricting TV and video, buying only wooden toys, setting a deadline for toilet-training that might or might not suit their child's development and interests, getting that early start on literacy with those flash cards, enrolling them in all those enrichment classes: music and swimming at six months, tiny tot soccer at 2 or 3. All of those things, in some circumstances, are not in line with unschooling principles. So there are very real differences between what an unschooling family might do when their kids are very young, and what other families might do. Very real differences between how unschooling parents see their kids and how other families do.

Honestly, if I were up agains the wall and had to call it something, I don't know what to call what we do with our pre-school-age kids except "unschooling." I hear your concern that you think parents of young children are claiming unschooling when that's not what they're doing, and I agree that's a problem (it's like people who claim to "unschool" in the summer, when they're not doing formal lessons). But for some of us, I don't know what else you'd call it without doing violence to the truth. It seems like your definition depends on a child being at an age where unschooling is chosen over school, but at least where I live, you have that pressure practically from birth, and unschooling principles are both valuable and valid in thinking about how to respond to it and how to be with your kids. It becomes meaningful to say, "We're unschooling our 3-year-old."

Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

k

Su, this may be true of you and you've continued with unschooling your
children. If you wanted to do unschooling and couldn't for some reason, you
could honestly consider your children's early years unschooling in practice
no matter what you call it.

However, many people think that when their child/ren aren't in school, that
they're unschooling at that time. They're not parenting their children in
ways that support unschooling for that time. They just have their children
with them rather than in school--- while life as they know it continues as
usual and nothing has taken place in their lives that would support
unschooling academically let alone as wholelife or radical unschooling.
Their kids just happen to be out of school during the summer and the
parent(s) want/s to claim unschooling by default.

And that's not honestly unschooling in the least. It's just claiming a
label.

~Katherine




On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Su Penn <su@...> wrote:

>
> On May 14, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > But that's me. It's very important to me to be clear and truthful.
> > Others don't have those scruples, and sometimes it pisses me off.
>
> I understand your concerns about people who say they unschooled kids who
> were younger than school age, but in my experience the fact that David and I
> were thinking about unschooling means that we did and do parent our kids
> really differently from most people even in the years before they are
> "school" age. We're not attachment parents, which is a starting point for
> unschooling for some families, because we've slept with some of our kids and
> not with others and used the sling with some at some times and not with
> others at other times, because we were trying so hard to pay attention to
> our kids' needs rather than adhere to an ideology. Two of my three were
> bottle-fed, and I feel 100% OK about that, whereas most parents in my
> real-life circle describe themselves as "lactivists."
>
> Lots of people whose kids are below school age are big on setting limits,
> imposing discipline (I just a couple of weeks ago had a mom tell me I ought
> to be cracking down more on Yehva, who is 2, because otherwise she'll be
> "completely out of control" by the time she's six), using time-outs,
> controlling food, restricting TV and video, buying only wooden toys, setting
> a deadline for toilet-training that might or might not suit their child's
> development and interests, getting that early start on literacy with those
> flash cards, enrolling them in all those enrichment classes: music and
> swimming at six months, tiny tot soccer at 2 or 3. All of those things, in
> some circumstances, are not in line with unschooling principles. So there
> are very real differences between what an unschooling family might do when
> their kids are very young, and what other families might do. Very real
> differences between how unschooling parents see their kids and how other
> families do.
>
> Honestly, if I were up agains the wall and had to call it something, I
> don't know what to call what we do with our pre-school-age kids except
> "unschooling." I hear your concern that you think parents of young children
> are claiming unschooling when that's not what they're doing, and I agree
> that's a problem (it's like people who claim to "unschool" in the summer,
> when they're not doing formal lessons). But for some of us, I don't know
> what else you'd call it without doing violence to the truth. It seems like
> your definition depends on a child being at an age where unschooling is
> chosen over school, but at least where I live, you have that pressure
> practically from birth, and unschooling principles are both valuable and
> valid in thinking about how to respond to it and how to be with your kids.
> It becomes meaningful to say, "We're unschooling our 3-year-old."
>
> Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
> tapeflags.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

==if I were up agains the wall and had to call it something, I don't know what to call what we do with our pre-school-age kids except "unschooling."...<snip>...It seems like your definition depends on a child being at an age where unschooling is chosen over school, but at least where I live, you have that pressure practically from birth, and unschooling principles are both valuable and valid in thinking about how to respond to it and how to be with your kids. It becomes meaningful to say, "We're unschooling our 3-year-old."==

I have the same experience. There is a lot of pressure to put very young children, even babies, in daycare/preschool asap. Part-time 3 and 4 year old preschool is free here so people think parents have no excuse for not putting their toddlers in preschool. It's considered abnormal to keep your babies, toddlers and preschoolers home whether you work or not. I don't have any children at the moment who are school-age. My middle son is 6.5 years old. All of his friends are in school. People are confused that my son is not in school, too, even though the compulsory age here is 7. Most people don't even know that. They assume that kids are required by law to attend kindergarten at the age of 6. So when I tell people my kids don't go to daycare or preschool or school, I'm inevitably asked why not. They do need to get prepared for "real" school as early as possible, after all. I then tell people that we intend to homeschool. At that, it's almost always assumed that I'm doing preschool/kindergarten at home. I'm asked how I'm "working" with my kids. People want to know how much time I spend reading to them, doing math facts, phonics, etc. That's when I try to explain that we do unschooling.

Of course, that's very different from the person who just doesn't send his/her child to school until the compulsory age or who considers school summer vacation as a time for unschooling. I wouldn't know how else to describe what we do.

Alysia

Sandra Dodd

-=where I live, you have that pressure
> practically from birth, and unschooling principles are both
valuable and
> valid in thinking about how to respond to it and how to be with
your kids.
> It becomes meaningful to say, "We're unschooling our 3-year-old."
>
> Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5-=-

I know there are places where the expectations of parents with babies
are crazy. Between Virginia and Boston, it seems. That won't be
helped by someone in, say Texas, claiming to have three years of
exclusive unschooling experience, in a discussion about homeschoolers,
if her kids each and every one went to school at four (not even five
or six, but barely-not-three) and were in school from then on.

If Eric has been unschooled for three years (since five) or eight
years, would you want someone to shush you in a discussion with a
claim of having exclusive unschooled her three children for three
years each?

I think it's a way for a person to claim rank and experience she
doesn't even begin to have.

And it's another case of knowing who's really successfully unschooling
and who's just pooting hot air. But because we've been discussing
such things here, I brought the example.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***and they told the editor that

they would not renew their subscriptions to HEM if I was kept, I was

"fired." No matter that the three noisemakers weren't even

subscribers. I was hurt because it was petty and unfair, but I

didn't make a deal about it at all. When people wrote to ask what

happened to me, or to say I was the only reason they had subscribed

(my supporters being actual readers of the magazine, and not

troublemakers), they weren't treated very nicely.***

I remember when that happened.  The last HEM magazine I ever read was the last one where I realized you weren't in it!  That magazine stopped being worth even looking at for FREE at the library without you there!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

*** That magazine stopped being worth even looking at for FREE at the library without you there!***

That's how I felt too. I only subscribed to read Sandra's column. When she wasn't there, the magazine wasn't worth it. What a great world where we can read Sandra at this list and on her blogs and at her website. And for free! And no ads for curriculum!

Deb Lewis




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> This was me responding to a blog comment assuring all readers that all
> good parents unschool, whether their kids go to school or not... it
> got stirred up again (link below). This is the problem with
> counting years before school age. I don't count Kirby's first four
> years, even though we were doing all the things we do now, because we
> figured he would go to school. Even if we had planned to homeschool,
> if we sent him to kindergarten, I wouldn't have said "we unschooled
> him for four years."
>
> But that's me. It's very important to me to be clear and truthful.
> Others don't have those scruples, and sometimes it pisses me off.
> Then I remind myself there have always been and will always be
> unscrupulous people. So the task for anyone here who's reading about
> unschooling is to remember that as well. Not all sources and advice
> are equally useful or equally based on knowledge and experience.
>
> ==================
>
> A child who goes to school for nine or ten months a year earns that
> summer vacation and shouldn't need mom-summer-school.
>
> -=- For example, my children were unschooled exclusively for the first
> three years of their lives (like many children are)-=-
>
> A child who went to school at the age of four was not unschooled for
> three years before that.
>
> Unschooling is instead of regular schooling, not around the edges of.
> It's quite dismissive of unschooling to say "Oh, we all do that."
>
> Sandra
> =====================
>
>



I commented on that too. Perhaps worth repeating here:

=====

My children weren't "unschooled" exclusively for the first three years of their lives. They were parented.

It's my view that a child not yet of "school age" cannot by definition be "unschooling". I'm happy to argue that point until the cows come home, even with unschoolers.

It seems clear to me from the origin of the term "unschooling" that the idea being conveyed is of either removing a child from school or not sending a child to school when he or she becomes eligible to attend.

When my daughter was in the first three years of her life, why on earth would it have even crossed my mind to compare her lifestyle with the lifestyle of a child who was attending school? It what way was her lifestyle an "alternative" to school? To think so would have been utterly nonsensical.

=====


Bob

Sarah

"It seems clear to me from the origin of the term "unschooling" that the idea being conveyed is of either removing a child from school or not sending a child to school when he or she becomes eligible to attend.

When my daughter was in the first three years of her life, why on earth would it have even crossed my mind to compare her lifestyle with the lifestyle of a child who was attending school? It what way was her lifestyle an "alternative" to school? To think so would have been utterly nonsensical."

You are right, and yet I parented very differently in their first five years than I would have without reading about unschooling. Not least in that, as a caring parent, I would have put a lot of time and effort into preparing my children for the stresses of school; reading books about it, going to see it, maybe attending the attached nursery. Our lives were different because of unschooling, whatever you call what we were doing.

Sarah

keetry

== My children weren't "unschooled" exclusively for the first three years of their lives. They were parented.==


I think a lot of people don't understand that it's parenting to interact with your baby, to read to them, play games, even just responding in a positive way to a baby's cry. All of that is presented as "enrichment", getting them ready for school. (Well, except for responding to a baby's cries. That you are not supposed to ever do.) It's not just normal parenting. It's something special that goes above and beyond. So, in a lot of people's minds, they think of something very different from what you or I or many on this list would think of as parenting for the first 3 or 5 years. Maybe that's why, when a parent who does all of that with their babies comes across unschooling, they think they've been unschooling. Of course, it can't really be unschooling if it's all in pursuit of a specific result, preparation for school, but they probably don't understand that.

I wouldn't say that I unschooled my 2 younger boys from birth but I knew before each of them was born that I wanted to homeschool them. By the time my 2nd was about 6 months old I had become very interested in unschooling and had started trying to implement it into our life with our 13 year old. So, when daycare/preschool/kindergarten came up in conversation in reference to my younger boys, I would talk about our plans to home/unschool. Actually, I'm getting pretty tired of the questions about what I do to work with my kids at home. I've started giving the exasperated response that they aren't even school-age yet.

Alysia

katelovessunshine

>
> But that's me. It's very important to me to be clear and truthful.
> Others don't have those scruples, and sometimes it pisses me off.
> Then I remind myself there have always been and will always be
> unscrupulous people. So the task for anyone here who's reading >about unschooling is to remember that as well. Not all sources and >advice are equally useful or equally based on knowledge and experience.
>

Being clear and honest is extremely important. I've been in groups where "knowing" a person was really reading posts on a list. Then when you said you "know" that person, you have to say something like "when we were standing in her kitchen together, she said to me..."

It can become quite laborious to be as clear as needs to be when a subject is near and dear to our hearts.

Personally, my mother dropped me at school at three. I was among the experimental students of the late 60s and 70s. I went to a school designed by Buckminster Fuller. Periodically through my school years, cirriculum would change from basics to theory & back again. I attended an alternative high school what would be called a magnet school now. Tested out. A few years later I started to college as an adult & graduated with honors.

My children's story is a mix as well. My oldest went to school (he's 28). My next two (now, 17 & 18) went to school for the end of one year and the beginning of another which totalled about four months (during 1st/2nd & 2nd/3rd), when both mom & dad needed to work & the schedules weren't flexible. The youngest has been to daycare/preschool when he was 3 (during that same awful time) but has never been to school. Still all three clearly remember that experience and have navigated themselves in ways because of it.

We have all kinds of books around the house, even text books. Some were considered cirriculum in the 19th century, some are considered cirriculum now.

We have a friend who is a linguist, my 18 year old loves grammar. Who knows maybe he's the next Noam Chompsky, maybe he just likes playing with language?

Over the course of time, I've been told that we don't fit into any of the categories. I've also been told that we fit into all of the categories at one time or another. It just depends on who wants us in or out of a particular category. I prefer no category. I don't like the limiting of check this box or check that box. Under Race they offer exclusive sub-categories, not even historically known blends and never offer "human" as a selection.

I share this because I find labeling and categorizing problematic. There is too much that happens over the course of a life time (and certainly through generations) to say that this or that experience excluded a person from or included a person in a particular group.

Others ideas about homeschooling, unschooling, etc have lead me recently to say more often than anything else, My kids are tutored. Because it's outside the normal response, it usually ends that particular thread. Experience has taught me that most questioners aren't really interested or seeking information, but they do want to label you with their preconceived ideas.

However, when I'm asked I take the time to be clear. What I mean by tutored is that we facilite, through a variety of ways, the skills and experiences they'll need to meet the challenges they'll have in life. It's a big job whatever you want to call it. And for each child the way is different because each of child is unique.

I don't care for the puff-up of credentials because it seems false. Beethoven had many students who especially after his death claimed him as their teacher. Beethoven didn't need to claim any teacher and was actually quite critical of the few people who claimed to have taught him.

I've read many books by experts who didn't have a clue about life or their subject. While some people still adhere to Dr Spock, I think the man ruined entire generations with bad advise. He was an abused child of a mentally ill mother, who by his own admission didn't know enough and never dealt with his past.

Regards,
Kate

Emily S

>
> My children weren't "unschooled" exclusively for the first three years of their lives. They were parented.
>

Mine are being parented too. But there are lots of ways to parent babies and little kids. I am parenting quite differently from many people I know and it is *because* of unschooling.



> It's my view that a child not yet of "school age" cannot by definition be "unschooling". I'm happy to argue that point until the cows come home, even with unschoolers.
>

That makes sense to me. I really do understand that unschooling is an alternative to school, therefore if a child doesn't need to be in school it seems odd to call what they are doing unschooling, but what else do we call it? I'm not saying that the simple default lack of school is the same thing as unschooling. However, what age is "school age?" School is not compulsory where I live until the age of 7. Most people don't know that. They send their kids at 4 or 5. So is my 4 year old now an unschooler or do we need to wait until she would start kindergarten this fall? Or until she's 7? The fact is we have been doing things differently with her since she was 2, when I started reading about unschooling, *because* of unschooling.





> It seems clear to me from the origin of the term "unschooling" that the idea being conveyed is of either removing a child from school or not sending a child to school when he or she becomes eligible to attend.
>

I agree that is the definition of the word. Maybe there needs to be a different term for this style of parenting before the school years.


> When my daughter was in the first three years of her life, why on earth would it have even crossed my mind to compare her lifestyle with the lifestyle of a child who was attending school? It what way was her lifestyle an "alternative" to school? To think so would have been utterly nonsensical.
>


Had you learned anything about unschooling or starting living that way when your daughter was 3? I know a lot of unschoolers didn't start until their kids were already in school for a year or two and pulled them out. Or they started with curriculum. Then, no, of course they wouldn't then retroactively compare those first 3 years to unschooling. I knew I was going to homeschool my kids before my first one was born. I started learning about unschooling when my daughter was 2.

It "crosses my mind" on a daily basis because I am doing things this way because of unschooling. It is not an alternative to school until this fall (except preschool and preschool curriculum!), but it is an alternative to punishments and rewards, arbitrary restrictions on food, tv, clothes, etc. I am actively focusing on partnering with my children and saying yes more and strewing and getting involved in their interests because of unschooling.

I think the problem comes in the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling. If someone reads about unschooling for academics only, then yah, that might not look much different than what they did with their kids when their kids were little. In fact, I know homeschoolers who intentionally unschool until their kids are 6 or 7, not just by default of the school system, but in an active way. But they are not radically unschooling and they do have the intention of doing curriculum at some point, so it looks very different from someone like me who is radically unschooling and has no intention of sending my kids to school or using curriculum.

Emily

Vidyut Kale

"Are you suggesting that those first three years are different from
those of a child that does not go to school at age four? If so, how?"

In the same way a person who eats meat only after 6pm isn't a vegetarian in
the morning. I am guilty of being in the pre-school bracket and calling what
I do unschooling. However, I see it as a matter of the direction I am
travelling in. I embrace the label because that is what fits my belief
system and vision for him most closely. If Nisarga ends up in school, no
matter how loudly I yell now or then, I didn't unschool him - simply because
he didn't go to school when there wasn't school, but did when there was,
like every schooling child in the world. Let's just say all the talk about
fitting the belief system and so on was a lot of air, since that belief
system doesn't really include school, does it? If I was unschooling, how did
the little guy land up in school?

It isn't the first three years that are different. It is the stories we run
in our mind that make the difference. if my belief is in the schooling
system, no matter how much I claim unschooling and the fancy ideas appeal to
me, my kid will end up in school. Doesn't make me a lousy parent. Just not
an unschooler. If my belief is in the principles of unschooling, I don't see
how taking that train is going to lead to a station called school. I can
claim all I like, its all about what I'm doing. And if what I'm doing finds
me in a shop fitting N for uniforms, I think its safe to say that I bought a
ticket to one place while fantasizing that I was going somewhere else.

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>Our lives were different because of unschooling, whatever you call what
we were doing.<<<

I would call it parenting with the intention to unschool in the future.
That's not the same thing as parenting as I already would anyway, and then
when my child came of school age to say that I was unschooling in my child's
pre-schooling years. (Some people do that.)

~Katherine




On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Sarah <yahoo@...> wrote:

> "It seems clear to me from the origin of the term "unschooling" that the
> idea being conveyed is of either removing a child from school or not sending
> a child to school when he or she becomes eligible to attend.
>
> When my daughter was in the first three years of her life, why on earth
> would it have even crossed my mind to compare her lifestyle with the
> lifestyle of a child who was attending school? It what way was her lifestyle
> an "alternative" to school? To think so would have been utterly
> nonsensical."
>
> You are right, and yet I parented very differently in their first five
> years than I would have without reading about unschooling. Not least in
> that, as a caring parent, I would have put a lot of time and effort into
> preparing my children for the stresses of school; reading books about it,
> going to see it, maybe attending the attached nursery. Our lives were
> different because of unschooling, whatever you call what we were doing.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/15/2010 7:08 AM, Sarah wrote:
> You are right, and yet I parented very differently in their first five
> years than I would have without reading about unschooling. Not least
> in that, as a caring parent, I would have put a lot of time and effort
> into preparing my children for the stresses of school; reading books
> about it, going to see it, maybe attending the attached nursery. Our
> lives were different because of unschooling, whatever you call what we
> were doing.


You were pre-unschooling?

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/15/2010 9:41 AM, katelovessunshine wrote:
> I share this because I find labeling and categorizing problematic.
> There is too much that happens over the course of a life time (and
> certainly through generations) to say that this or that experience
> excluded a person from or included a person in a particular group.

Labeling and categorizing is essential - you label yourself, by using
your own name. I think it is a certain type of labeling and categorizing
that you probably object to, not all possible labeling and categorizing.

When we talk about unschoolers and unschooling, it isn't with the
purpose of deciding who is "in" and who is "out" of a group, though. It
is to make it clear what we are here to talk about - not curriculum-use,
not testing, not the Charlotte Mason method or the Thomas Jefferson method.

>
> Others ideas about homeschooling, unschooling, etc have lead me
> recently to say more often than anything else, My kids are tutored.
> Because it's outside the normal response, it usually ends that
> particular thread. Experience has taught me that most questioners
> aren't really interested or seeking information, but they do want to
> label you with their preconceived ideas.

Are they tutored?

>
> However, when I'm asked I take the time to be clear. What I mean by
> tutored is that we facilite, through a variety of ways, the skills and
> experiences they'll need to meet the challenges they'll have in life.

You're purposely misleading people, though, when you just say
"tutored.". I mean, you say it even though you know that when they hear
"tutor" that they think of someone sitting down and instructing the kids
in specific subjects, which isn't what you're doing if you're unschooling.

Reminds me of my mom insisting that I "taught" my kids to read. She knew
that wasn't true - she knew they'd learned without instruction, each in
their own way and time. But she decided to stretch the idea of
"teaching" to include creating a print-rich, supportive environment and
letting nature take its course.

-pam

k

>>>I would call it parenting with the intention to unschool in the
future.<<<

I want to say a bit more about the benefits of slowly easing into
unschooling "status" or practice before one's child approaches school age.

I avoided making a distinction because first of all had I NOT been
influenced by unschooling ideas I wouldn't have been expected to say
anything one way or the other.

So... what I did say was I'm looking into unschooling ... I'm interested in
unschooling. That gave my resistant relatives and friends time to acclimate
somewhat to the idea, or at least the word unschooling, before I was
actually doing anything different academically. So that, by the time Karl
was 5 and 6 years old and I'm still onto the unschooling thought, there's
little to be shocked about. The questions I get now are much calmer than
when I first broached the idea. For us, it provided a bit of cushion to NOT
claim we were unschooling before we would even have been schooling Karl.

------------------------
Going way way back to the beginning, as to the original idea of this thread,
for me the pertinent question is: If we're on a blog and each comment is
saying "I'm an unschooling parent!" --even if it's just in some of their
minds only-- and the unschooling ideas being touted conflict with one
another, then how does anyone (especially a newbie) know what unschooling
really is?

~Katherine



On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 9:50 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:

> >>>Our lives were different because of unschooling, whatever you call what
> we were doing.<<<
>
> I would call it parenting with the intention to unschool in the future.
> That's not the same thing as parenting as I already would anyway, and then
> when my child came of school age to say that I was unschooling in my child's
> pre-schooling years. (Some people do that.)
>
> ~Katherine
>


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Sarah

> You were pre-unschooling?
>
> -pam
>

Sounds about right :)

I suppose that I wouldn't have called it 'schooling' if I'd been preparing to send them to school.

I guess that the lack of distinction between what I'm doing now and what I was doing then is part of it, I was parenting then and I'm parenting now- influenced a good deal by my reading and thinking on unschooling. Nothing has changed with my eldest's birthday, and I don't do anything new (philosophically speaking) with my school-aged child that I don't do with his little brother.

I think there is also a part of me that is resistant to defining what I do in negative terms- in opposition to school; what I don't do rather than what I do. But then it is much harder to make a definition in those terms. I don't really know where I'd start!

Sarah

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Emily S" <saturnfire16@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Had you learned anything about unschooling or starting living that way when your daughter was 3?


I first learned about unschooling when my daughter was almost 18 and had graduated from high school. My first encounter with the term "unschooling" was several months *after* my wife and I had removed our son from school at his request and he'd already reverted full-time to the lifestyle he'd had before he started school, which was essentially doing what he liked and not doing what he didn't like.



>
> I think the problem comes in the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling. If someone reads about unschooling for academics only, then yah, that might not look much different than what they did with their kids when their kids were little. In fact, I know homeschoolers who intentionally unschool until their kids are 6 or 7, not just by default of the school system, but in an active way. But they are not radically unschooling and they do have the intention of doing curriculum at some point, so it looks very different from someone like me who is radically unschooling and has no intention of sending my kids to school or using curriculum.
>
> Emily
>


Well, that's the tricky situation I'm in. Is what I'm doing with my son "radical unschooling"? Perhaps if you followed me around for a day you might think that what you're seeing is radical unschooling, but in fact what I'm doing is what I've been doing since I became a parent in 1985. And coincidentally my son doesn't go to school.

That's why I find it confusing when radical unschooling is presented as a progression from unschooling academics to unschooling all aspects of a child's life. There was no such progression to be made in my life because I was already there. And I wasn't "unschooling" all aspects of my son's life, I was parenting.

Bob

[email protected]

Hi all ,

I have been reading all the responses to the last posts about " what is unschooling".

As a fyi I'm still new to the whole unschooling. World or lifestyle . I struggle with allowing my self to say yes more and "no" less .. I find that my first reaction is to say " no" to my kids . It drives me nuts that I do that .. But I'm learning to be a yes person and just enjoy watching kids learn though daily life .
The whole point of me replying to u all was I have a question . . Is it still unschooling if I asked my kids you want to read with me and they say yes and we sit and read for a hour . Then they get bored or want to move on . Is it unschooling to ask if the kids want to do something ? I hope this is not a lame question for you all. .
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 16, 2010, at 11:11 AM, mhstearns@... wrote:

> Is it still unschooling if I asked my kids you want to read with me
> and they say yes and we sit and read for a hour . Then they get
> bored or want to move on . Is it unschooling to ask if the kids want
> to do something ? I hope this is not a lame question for you all.

Unschooling is living as though school didn't exist.

I assume you don't live with your husband as though there are things
he should be learning in school.

Do you sometimes ask your husband if he'd like to do something?

It's like that, except more involved since kids have less experience
with what's available in the world that they might like or might
support or connect to what they already like.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

That's what I thought .. I was just double checking :) thanks so much for the reply . Hope u have a great sunday

Holley
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 12:05:21
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling credentials


On May 16, 2010, at 11:11 AM, mhstearns@... wrote:

> Is it still unschooling if I asked my kids you want to read with me
> and they say yes and we sit and read for a hour . Then they get
> bored or want to move on . Is it unschooling to ask if the kids want
> to do something ? I hope this is not a lame question for you all.

Unschooling is living as though school didn't exist.

I assume you don't live with your husband as though there are things
he should be learning in school.

Do you sometimes ask your husband if he'd like to do something?

It's like that, except more involved since kids have less experience
with what's available in the world that they might like or might
support or connect to what they already like.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling is living as though school didn't exist.-=-

That is one inspiring way to look at it, but sometimes a family takes
that too far, and there's a recent connect-the-dots trail that can
lead to loss of custody.

Now it's been said in People Magazine and on a morning network show
that unschooling is legal in all 50 states. (Apologies for a moment
for those outside those places and Puerto Rico the 51st state which
would mess up the flag just too horribly, I suppose...)...

"Unschooling" doesn't exist in anybody's law.
Homeschooling is legal. Unschoolers need to live like homeschooling
laws exist, I think.

But yes, ideally, don't live a school life at home.

And if you and your husband never did any cool stuff before, learn to
do some now!

Sandra

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katelovessunshine

>
> You're purposely misleading people, though, when you just say
> "tutored.". I mean, you say it even though you know that when they hear
> "tutor" that they think of someone sitting down and instructing the kids
> in specific subjects, which isn't what you're doing if you're unschooling.
>
> Reminds me of my mom insisting that I "taught" my kids to read. She knew
> that wasn't true - she knew they'd learned without instruction, each in
> their own way and time. But she decided to stretch the idea of
> "teaching" to include creating a print-rich, supportive environment and
> letting nature take its course.
>
> -pam
>

Hi Pam,

Please let me be clear, I don't mislead them at all. I answer the question in a way they understand that my kids aren't in school and have an individualized learning experience.

If a word brings to mind a particular scenario for one person but another scenario for another, how can we ever be sure that any words we use are understood at all? No, I think that if we use words correctly, even if they conjure different pictures in the minds of others from what we mean, if we've used them within their given meaning, we've done our job. If clarity is needed, then it needs to be requested.

If a word has more than one meaning and I use the word correctly I don't believe that it's my place to "teach" other adults that popular culture has given them narrow definitions of life. All life isn't just definition number 1 in the dictionary.

More to my definition of tutor is the adult/guardian/teacher who is responsible for the child/student. I am responsible for their learn experience. I provide for them individual attention through their learning years. I am their guardian/tutor/parent.

I look at this much the same way I look at "parent" in general. There are many people that produce offspring, to my definition this does not make one a "parent." Being a parent requires positive action in raising a child. Much like alligators have offspring, they really don't qualify as parents. Elephants, however, are very good parents, with parent child interaction well into the teen years.

There are some things that my kids do that they have been tutored and not by me: music for example, they all have attended lessons and expanded on those lessons. The lessons were given by people who had different titles: teacher, mentor, tutor and musician.

Sometimes in the course of events we are sitting at the table or on the sofa or outside and there are questions and answers that might be viewed by an outside observer as a tutoring session. I consider it conversation. I'm quite visual, so I use my hands & draw pictures or doodle words as I make my point. Sometimes we turn to resources, pull a book of the shelf and look at it together. And we get sidetracked: the journey from one thing to another is always exciting and we often turn and say, how did we get on this subject?

I must say that at this point in our journey tutoring goes both ways. My daughter has a talent for sewing and has been tutoring me. She sits beside me and instructs me along the way. I've improved. What is fabulous is that the dynamic, when developed in a healthy way, it should go both ways, no one person has all the answers. I am not offended by her "teaching" or "tutoring" or "facilitating" or "guiding" me in skill I want to learn.

It would be lovely if your mom could find another word that would describe the time period your kids learned to read other than teach, but it's good that she's expanded her definitions to include more than rigid school defined "teach" & "learn". She's trying, which is more than other grandparents. I don't suppose you'd like the word tutor? LOL ;)

Regards,
Kate

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>That's why I find it confusing when radical unschooling is presented as a progression from unschooling academics to unschooling all aspects of a child's life. There was no such progression to be made in my life because I was already there. And I wasn't "unschooling" all aspects of my son's life, I was parenting.

Bob
***************************


this is the first time i have ever heard my own childhood reflected so clearly - i went to school. but, other than that, if i was followed around my entire childhood, if people didn't know i went to school, or if it was summer vacation or something, people who identify now as radical unschoolers would probably say my parents were radical unschoolers. but this is well before that label existed, possibly even before the concept of unschooling existed at all (when was that?)

i never had a bedtime, never had arbitrary limits set on food or sleepovers, or anything else, really. i learned more through games and exploration of the world (international travel, etc) with my parents than i ever learned at school, and my parents didn't hold much, if any, respect for school, it just didn't seem like an option (probably wasn't really....) to not go. if i wanted to stay home, i stayed home, i was ever asked if i did my homework or made to do one thing before another (and it wasn't neglectful not asking, it was respectful of me/devaluing school not asking). my parents included me in their lives and treated me like an adult for the most part. there were parts of that that i feel were detrimental - benign neglect in a way - and that i am choosing not to replicate, but for purposes of differentiating the parenting peice from the unschooling piece, it's interesting that my life was backward from that of many. school very much did exist for me and i went there every day, but the rest of my life reflected the lives of those of us who choose to live as if school didn't exist.

lyla

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Pam Sorooshian

On 5/16/2010 8:11 AM, mhstearns@... wrote:
> Is it still unschooling if I asked my kids you want to read with me
> and they say yes and we sit and read for a hour . Then they get bored
> or want to move on . Is it unschooling to ask if the kids want to do
> something ? I hope this is not a lame question for you all. .

Not at all a lame question. But it scares me.

Asking them to read should not be any different than asking if they want
to go outside and play pirates or help you bake a cake or wash the dog
or go to the grocery store or play with bubbles or anything else.
I'm a little afraid that the unschooling message that some people hear
is rather far removed from the message most of us think we're sending.

Unschooling IS very very often comprised of asking if the kids want to
do something. That is a HUGE part of unschooling. (Caps for emphasis.)

Unschooling is also strewing - bring ideas, objects, experiences,
opportunities of all kinds into their lives. We don't force them. We
don't force them. But we certain offer. And we often recommend, too. And
once in a while we say, "I think you should....". Unschooling is not
child-led learning. It is child-centered. It is child-considered. It is
a parent and child dance in which sometimes one leads, sometimes the
other, and when it is going really well nobody is leading, they are
completely in synh.

When someone asks if it is okay to as if their kids want to read with
them, I am really worried that they are taking a far far too hands-off
approach - a wait-and-see approach - sitting back and waiting for the
kids to come up with ideas of what they want to do. Unschooling parents
are very involved in offering the world to their child. There is an art
to knowing when to back off and when to step up and be actively
involved, but even when kids are busily pursuing an interest on their
own, unschooling parents are paying attention and readying themselves to
offer enhancements or extensions or alternatives, etc.

-pam sorooshian






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Pam Sorooshian

On 5/16/2010 9:49 AM, katelovessunshine wrote:
> If a word brings to mind a particular scenario for one person but
> another scenario for another, how can we ever be sure that any words
> we use are understood at all?

I doubt there is anybody who hears the word, "tutor," and immediately
thinks a kid is living a life with NO instruction, no teaching, no
lessons, no assignments.

I don't object if someone wants to mislead a bit when talking to others
about what their kids do for "schooling." We just say "homeschooling" -
but, reality is, in California there is no such thing, legally speaking.
(There IS tutoring - and it means being tutored by a credentialed
teacher in required subjects for a certain number of hours during
certain times of day.) I don't take time, either, to explain the
nuances of the law and how what we do is usually called unschooling and
what that is, etc.

-pam








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