Meal time restrictions
ohsoverymom
Ugh! What do you do when visiting friends or family who won't let your children eat between meals? It makes me nuts. My children know when they're hungry and aren't just eating because they're glutinous pigs. NOR are they going to 'spoil their dinner' if they don't eat it, it's because they don't like what you made. And I'm sorry, adults are allowed to not like certain types of food, why aren't children?
We've started bringing a hoard of snacks in our luggage and the kids sneak into the guest room to eat a granola bar or something to tide them over until the official meal time.
I forgot our stash last week and my six year old was crying at the counter while his grandmother cooked dinner. She refused to let him nibble so much as a piece of bread. I had gone out to run an errand or I would have marched in there and given him what he wanted.
When we all sat down to eat, he downed four full platefuls of rice, meatballs, and heaps of green beans. She was floored.
"Oh, I guess he really was hungry?"
Um, yes.
~Jessica
We've started bringing a hoard of snacks in our luggage and the kids sneak into the guest room to eat a granola bar or something to tide them over until the official meal time.
I forgot our stash last week and my six year old was crying at the counter while his grandmother cooked dinner. She refused to let him nibble so much as a piece of bread. I had gone out to run an errand or I would have marched in there and given him what he wanted.
When we all sat down to eat, he downed four full platefuls of rice, meatballs, and heaps of green beans. She was floored.
"Oh, I guess he really was hungry?"
Um, yes.
~Jessica
Su Penn
On May 13, 2010, at 10:30 PM, ohsoverymom wrote:
You mention "luggage" which makes me think you're making extended visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult, have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're still giving too much authority to your mother.
Maybe I'm too quick to suggest people take a break from bad family dynamics, but I was estranged from my parents for awhile in my 20s, and I once had to re-train my dad not to be a jerk to me by telling him, "I'm going to walk out the door if you do that again," and then walking out the door when he did it. Oddly enough, in the long run both of these things led to much-improved relationships.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> We've started bringing a hoard of snacks in our luggage and the kids sneak into the guest room to eat a granola bar or something to tide them over until the official meal time.I don't mean to sound snarky or dismissive, but I don't visit people like that. I once had a close friend tell Eric, who was maybe 5 at the time, that they had a rule at their house that the adults made up the plates and the kids had to eat at least two bites of everything on it. I said No. If she'd pushed it, we'd have left. If she hadn't been willing to be flexible about it, we wouldn't have visited at meal times anymore. I do believe in obeying other people's house rules--this same friend has a "kids must sit at the table to eat" rule, and even though we don't have that rule at our house, I'm OK with it. But it gets into different territory when you're talking about the integrity of a child's body and his responses to it--to me, that crosses a line.
You mention "luggage" which makes me think you're making extended visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult, have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're still giving too much authority to your mother.
> I forgot our stash last week and my six year old was crying at the counter while his grandmother cooked dinner. She refused to let him nibble so much as a piece of bread. I had gone out to run an errand or I would have marched in there and given him what he wanted.Make sure she understands that your kids are to be allowed to eat when they're hungry. If she can't do that, don't forget the stash. Don't leave them alone with their grandmother. Don't visit.
Maybe I'm too quick to suggest people take a break from bad family dynamics, but I was estranged from my parents for awhile in my 20s, and I once had to re-train my dad not to be a jerk to me by telling him, "I'm going to walk out the door if you do that again," and then walking out the door when he did it. Oddly enough, in the long run both of these things led to much-improved relationships.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
ohsoverymom
>>I don't mean to sound snarky or dismissive, but I don't visit people like that. I once had a close friend tell Eric, who was maybe 5 at the time, that they had a rule at their house that the adults made up the plates and the kids had to eat at least two bites of everything on it. I said No. If she'd pushed it, we'd have left. If she hadn't been willing to be flexible about it, we wouldn't have visited at meal times anymore. I do believe in obeying other people's house
rules--this same friend has a "kids must sit at the table to eat" rule, and even though we don't have that rule at our house, I'm OK with it. But it gets into different territory when you're talking about the integrity of a child's body and his responses to it--to me, that crosses a line.
>>I agree, this is my Mother in Law's house - I'm okay with her 'everyone at the table for meals' rule, and her 'no jumping on my sofas' rule and her 'get off my coffee table this instant' rule. Though I'd reword that last one.
I try to be somewhat gentle with her, as she has some food and (in her mind, she looks great) weight issues.
>>You mention "luggage" which makes me think you're making extended visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult, have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're still giving too much authority to your mother.
>>Oh heavens, not my mother, my mother is great in giving my kids the room they need/want (she homeschooled my two younger siblings). This is my mother in law.
"Sneak" is probably the wrong word, we do kind of feel like we're eating contraband food, but she knows I bring it and knows they snack on it. She rolls her eyes at me. I think the weirdest thing, is that it's more about her kitchen getting messed up in between meals than anything... though I don't know, she does have strange food issues. I understand that, it'd be nice if when I cleaned the kitchen it stayed that way, but I think it's more important for kids to eat when they're hungry, just like I do. And they can wipe up after themselves.
Yes, they live in another state, so we make a trip a few times a year. My parents are in the same area (about an hour apart) and we spend the bulk of the time with my more understanding parents and then one night with my husband's parents. They still work so Friday night to Saturday works out without them feeling shunned.
>>Make sure she understands that your kids are to be allowed to eat when they're hungry. If she can't do that, don't forget the stash. Don't leave them alone with their grandmother. Don't visit.
>>We've gone over this several times with her. My husband was very angry when he found out she had not let our son eat. We don't want to burn a family bridge though. Most relations are very good, the food thing is a hard one for her.
I normally don't forget the stash - I was out purchasing some snacks for our stay plus our ride home. She's funny about meal times so I didn't expect her to be in the kitchen cooking (and noticing grandkids in the pantry) until later.
Not visiting is not an option, we love them very much and they've come a long way.
>>Maybe I'm too quick to suggest people take a break from bad family dynamics, but I was estranged from my parents for awhile in my 20s, and I once had to re-train my dad not to be a jerk to me by telling him, "I'm going to walk out the door if you do that again," and then walking out the door when he did it. Oddly enough, in the long run both of these things led to much-improved relationships.
>>I wouldn't call our relationship with my inlaws a 'bad family dynamic' My in laws have had to learn to deal with a lot of our unconventional choices - homebirth, unassisted birth, not vaccinating, cloth diapers, homeschooling/unschooling, natural doctors, differing political views... I'm thrilled, given all that that they don't give us a hard time, yell at us, threaten us, demand to see school records or anything like that (I've heard terrible stories).
I admit I tend towards being a peacemaker over a wavemaker, and believe I can have a greater influence with skeptical or hardnosed family members by being gentle about how we live.
They drive me batty sometimes, but I do hope we can help them see things in a different light by just showing them how we live so they can see there are other options.
Won't say I don't need to vent now and then, though!
Allowing a child to have autonomy is one of our last big hurdles with them, and I hope she can come around.
Sandra Dodd
-=-You mention "luggage" which makes me think you're making extended
visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult,
have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're
still giving too much authority to your mother.-=-
I disagree.
The mother DOES have authority in her house. If she has rules to the
extent that even adults will be dishonest and sneaky, that's HER
problem.
When we visited Keith's parents, and his mom was pretty much that way
about food, we would offer to go to the store, or just say "We're
going out a bit," and take the kids for a burger if they wanted.
Turns out Keith had survived his teen years in just that fashion, so
his mother would swear in court she had limited his intake, but
because he lived where food was for sale at drive-throughs, she
couldn't even begin to. When he was the last child at home, he had a
best friend who was the oldest of eight or nine kids, and would eat at
their house, too. One more kid wasn't a big deal for them.
-=-Maybe I'm too quick to suggest people take a break from bad family
dynamics, but I was estranged from my parents for awhile in my 20s,
and I once had to re-train my dad not to be a jerk to me by telling
him, "I'm going to walk out the door if you do that again," and then
walking out the door when he did it. Oddly enough, in the long run
both of these things led to much-improved relationships.
-=-
That was you, the child, though.
To separate kids from grandparents is something pretty harsh for the
middle generation to decide. I think being sneaky is better than
putting the ultimatum on 80 year olds in their own home.
Keith's dad is 92 or so, and Keith stayed with him last weekend. He's
not going to last much longer. He has no idea how to get himself any
food because he went from his mom's house to the navy to his wife's
house, and she was so controlling of food he hardly made himself a
piece of toast, and between meals his option was pretty much a banana.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult,
have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're
still giving too much authority to your mother.-=-
I disagree.
The mother DOES have authority in her house. If she has rules to the
extent that even adults will be dishonest and sneaky, that's HER
problem.
When we visited Keith's parents, and his mom was pretty much that way
about food, we would offer to go to the store, or just say "We're
going out a bit," and take the kids for a burger if they wanted.
Turns out Keith had survived his teen years in just that fashion, so
his mother would swear in court she had limited his intake, but
because he lived where food was for sale at drive-throughs, she
couldn't even begin to. When he was the last child at home, he had a
best friend who was the oldest of eight or nine kids, and would eat at
their house, too. One more kid wasn't a big deal for them.
-=-Maybe I'm too quick to suggest people take a break from bad family
dynamics, but I was estranged from my parents for awhile in my 20s,
and I once had to re-train my dad not to be a jerk to me by telling
him, "I'm going to walk out the door if you do that again," and then
walking out the door when he did it. Oddly enough, in the long run
both of these things led to much-improved relationships.
-=-
That was you, the child, though.
To separate kids from grandparents is something pretty harsh for the
middle generation to decide. I think being sneaky is better than
putting the ultimatum on 80 year olds in their own home.
Keith's dad is 92 or so, and Keith stayed with him last weekend. He's
not going to last much longer. He has no idea how to get himself any
food because he went from his mom's house to the navy to his wife's
house, and she was so controlling of food he hardly made himself a
piece of toast, and between meals his option was pretty much a banana.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I agree, this is my Mother in Law's house - I'm okay with her
'everyone at the
table for meals' rule, and her 'no jumping on my sofas' rule and her
'get off my
coffee table this instant' rule. Though I'd reword that last one.-=-
How and why would you reword the last one?
My first thought was "why are your kids on my coffee table!?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'everyone at the
table for meals' rule, and her 'no jumping on my sofas' rule and her
'get off my
coffee table this instant' rule. Though I'd reword that last one.-=-
How and why would you reword the last one?
My first thought was "why are your kids on my coffee table!?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 14, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
We agree that the mother has authority in her house, except that, as I said, I draw a line at the skin--a person can have authority in their house, but to me that gets muddied when it gets to the point of what is being done to a person's body. Restricting or forcing food crosses the line, for me, from the person who is boss of the house having authority to the person who is boss of the body having authority.
A person does have authority in her home. But, as an adult, I can choose whether to go to that home and submit myself to that authority. I was willing to choose not to see my parents for awhile because my father could not understand the limits on his authority over me once I was an adult; most people I know are not willing to make that decision, but honestly (this is not aimed at the OP by any means) I think sometimes adult children continue to let their parents define the relationship long after they should take some control of it. I have one friend, for instance, who still speaks to her mother every day even though all her mother does is criticize her choices (down to the level of what she's serving her kids for lunch). She complains endlessly to her friends about the latest crappy thing her mother said to her, and when everyone suggests the obvious--that she cut down on the phone calls, or not tell her mother what she's serving for lunch, or whatever, she says that's impossible. Sometimes I just like to remind people that it actually is possible. You can choose to set limits with your parents or not, but I think it's healthy to recognize that you have that option.
I think this kind of thing takes discernment--one of my favorite words, very useful, and applicable in an unschooling context. It has to do with sorting out what to do in a complicated situation. Relationships are complicated. When I was young, I somehow thought all friendships should be pretty much perfect; as I've gotten older, I've learned that in many relationships, there's a complicated calculus of deciding whether a relationship is worth it, that some friends can be counted on for certain things and others can't, or that you may love this person to death but their habit of always being at least an hour late is something you're going to have to decide to put up with if you're going to keep the relationship (and you might make a different decision for someone who was always late that you didn't love quite so much).
The OP's situation is complicated because there is this one issue in what otherwise sounds like a good relationship. But if the mother-in-law can't adapt herself, I would look to other options than submitting to her authority in her home. I would not sneak around, but I would feed my kids. I might stay in a hotel instead of at her house and visit for limited times. I would absolutely not again leave my child alone in my mother-in-law's care, at least for awhile, because I wouldn't leave my kids with any person I didn't think could be trusted to do something so basic as feed him when he was hungry.
*shrug* But what do I know? My partner's parents had the good grace to die a year before I started seeing him, so I don't have in-law issues.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> -=-You mention "luggage" which makes me think you're making extendedI'm not actually clear on how we're disagreeing here, but that's OK.
> visits, more than just an afternoon? The idea that you, as an adult,
> have to sneak around to feed your kids suggests that maybe you're
> still giving too much authority to your mother.-=-
>
> I disagree.
> The mother DOES have authority in her house. If she has rules to the
> extent that even adults will be dishonest and sneaky, that's HER
> problem.
We agree that the mother has authority in her house, except that, as I said, I draw a line at the skin--a person can have authority in their house, but to me that gets muddied when it gets to the point of what is being done to a person's body. Restricting or forcing food crosses the line, for me, from the person who is boss of the house having authority to the person who is boss of the body having authority.
A person does have authority in her home. But, as an adult, I can choose whether to go to that home and submit myself to that authority. I was willing to choose not to see my parents for awhile because my father could not understand the limits on his authority over me once I was an adult; most people I know are not willing to make that decision, but honestly (this is not aimed at the OP by any means) I think sometimes adult children continue to let their parents define the relationship long after they should take some control of it. I have one friend, for instance, who still speaks to her mother every day even though all her mother does is criticize her choices (down to the level of what she's serving her kids for lunch). She complains endlessly to her friends about the latest crappy thing her mother said to her, and when everyone suggests the obvious--that she cut down on the phone calls, or not tell her mother what she's serving for lunch, or whatever, she says that's impossible. Sometimes I just like to remind people that it actually is possible. You can choose to set limits with your parents or not, but I think it's healthy to recognize that you have that option.
I think this kind of thing takes discernment--one of my favorite words, very useful, and applicable in an unschooling context. It has to do with sorting out what to do in a complicated situation. Relationships are complicated. When I was young, I somehow thought all friendships should be pretty much perfect; as I've gotten older, I've learned that in many relationships, there's a complicated calculus of deciding whether a relationship is worth it, that some friends can be counted on for certain things and others can't, or that you may love this person to death but their habit of always being at least an hour late is something you're going to have to decide to put up with if you're going to keep the relationship (and you might make a different decision for someone who was always late that you didn't love quite so much).
The OP's situation is complicated because there is this one issue in what otherwise sounds like a good relationship. But if the mother-in-law can't adapt herself, I would look to other options than submitting to her authority in her home. I would not sneak around, but I would feed my kids. I might stay in a hotel instead of at her house and visit for limited times. I would absolutely not again leave my child alone in my mother-in-law's care, at least for awhile, because I wouldn't leave my kids with any person I didn't think could be trusted to do something so basic as feed him when he was hungry.
*shrug* But what do I know? My partner's parents had the good grace to die a year before I started seeing him, so I don't have in-law issues.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
keetry
==> Make sure she understands that your kids are to be allowed to eat when they're hungry. If she can't do that, don't forget the stash. Don't leave them alone with their grandmother. Don't visit.
Alysia
> >>Have you asked her why she does this and then really listened to her reasons rather than just telling her what you expect her to do?
>
> We've gone over this several times with her. My husband was very angry when he found out she had not let our son eat. We don't want to burn a family bridge though. Most relations are very good, the food thing is a hard one for her.==
Alysia
lalow66
We have had similiar issues at my mothers house.. however, it centers more about my children milling around the kitchen looking for food when she is trying to cook than about them actually eating in between meals. When my kids hear someone in the kitchen they gravitate towards it and ask or look for food. So when at my moms i can of direct the kids toward the table so they are not under her feet and provide some snacks, mostly cut up veggies and fruit or crackers for them to nibble on while she cooks. Typically that makes everyone happy. I have also just made them their dinner earlier and fed them all and told my mom it was so we (the adults) could eat and talk without worrying about the kids. But I usually do it more when they seem hungry and she is planning to eat later or what she is planning isnt something that is going to be all that tempting for them.
Sandra Dodd
-=-We agree that the mother has authority in her house, except that,
as I said, I draw a line at the skin--a person can have authority in
their house, but to me that gets muddied when it gets to the point of
what is being done to a person's body. Restricting or forcing food
crosses the line, for me, from the person who is boss of the house
having authority to the person who is boss of the body having
authority.-=-
I absolutely agree that she shouldn't pierce or tattoo visitors in her
home against their mother's will. She shouldn't give them haircuts.
She has authority over the dispensing of the food she has bought and
prepared, though.
And so I think it's okay for the mom to feed her kids with food she's
brought, but not to require hosts to feed her kids on her or their
schedule.
-= I think sometimes adult children continue to let their parents
define the relationship long after they should take some control of
it. I have one friend, for instance, who still speaks to her mother
every day -=-
Absolutely. When it's by phone, that's neutral territory. When it's
in a restaurant, more neutral. When my mother-in-law visited us, she
had nothing to say about when and what my kids ate in their own home.
When I visited her, she did. She tried the same-old old-timey crap.
Once she served beef tongue (before we had kids) and I said (as
politely as I could) that I wasn't going to have any and she said "Oh
yes you are." Yeah. I didn't. Another time she told Marty he
couldn't have his desert if he didn't finish his plate. He was three
or four, and the glorious desert was a brown little raisin compote
that didn't look very good at all, but still Marty wanted to have some
because other people had some, in a pretty little bowl. She said
no. I slid mine over in front of him and said, "Here, Marty; you can
have mine."
I endured the sharp dirty look. I didn't tell her that we were never
coming back, though, nor tell her anything. Just let it be the little
thing it was. It was littler for us than for her, I'm sure, so I
didn't add to it.
-=- But if the mother-in-law can't adapt herself, I would look to
other options than submitting to her authority in her home. I would
not sneak around, but I would feed my kids.-=-
I wouldn't lie and "sneak," but I wouldn't feed my kids at her kitchen
table. I'd remind them there was food in the car or the backpack.
-=-My partner's parents had the good grace to die a year before I
started seeing him, so I don't have in-law issues.-=-
I hope one of my kids doesn't marry someone someday who would write
that about me, had I died before he or she met me. I understand the
sentiment; my first husband was orphaned, but I had met his parents
and they knew and liked me. I married him to help take care of the 10
and 12 year olds they left, too.
It's possible that advice to people with in-laws would be better
coming from people who have dealt with in-laws for real. There IS a
relationship between children and grandparents that has nothing to do
with the middle generation. I was fortunate enough to have four
grandparents. One died when I was 11, one when I was 17, and the
others lasted until I was grown. My paternal grandmother met my
Kirby, who was named after her eldest child, my dad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
as I said, I draw a line at the skin--a person can have authority in
their house, but to me that gets muddied when it gets to the point of
what is being done to a person's body. Restricting or forcing food
crosses the line, for me, from the person who is boss of the house
having authority to the person who is boss of the body having
authority.-=-
I absolutely agree that she shouldn't pierce or tattoo visitors in her
home against their mother's will. She shouldn't give them haircuts.
She has authority over the dispensing of the food she has bought and
prepared, though.
And so I think it's okay for the mom to feed her kids with food she's
brought, but not to require hosts to feed her kids on her or their
schedule.
-= I think sometimes adult children continue to let their parents
define the relationship long after they should take some control of
it. I have one friend, for instance, who still speaks to her mother
every day -=-
Absolutely. When it's by phone, that's neutral territory. When it's
in a restaurant, more neutral. When my mother-in-law visited us, she
had nothing to say about when and what my kids ate in their own home.
When I visited her, she did. She tried the same-old old-timey crap.
Once she served beef tongue (before we had kids) and I said (as
politely as I could) that I wasn't going to have any and she said "Oh
yes you are." Yeah. I didn't. Another time she told Marty he
couldn't have his desert if he didn't finish his plate. He was three
or four, and the glorious desert was a brown little raisin compote
that didn't look very good at all, but still Marty wanted to have some
because other people had some, in a pretty little bowl. She said
no. I slid mine over in front of him and said, "Here, Marty; you can
have mine."
I endured the sharp dirty look. I didn't tell her that we were never
coming back, though, nor tell her anything. Just let it be the little
thing it was. It was littler for us than for her, I'm sure, so I
didn't add to it.
-=- But if the mother-in-law can't adapt herself, I would look to
other options than submitting to her authority in her home. I would
not sneak around, but I would feed my kids.-=-
I wouldn't lie and "sneak," but I wouldn't feed my kids at her kitchen
table. I'd remind them there was food in the car or the backpack.
-=-My partner's parents had the good grace to die a year before I
started seeing him, so I don't have in-law issues.-=-
I hope one of my kids doesn't marry someone someday who would write
that about me, had I died before he or she met me. I understand the
sentiment; my first husband was orphaned, but I had met his parents
and they knew and liked me. I married him to help take care of the 10
and 12 year olds they left, too.
It's possible that advice to people with in-laws would be better
coming from people who have dealt with in-laws for real. There IS a
relationship between children and grandparents that has nothing to do
with the middle generation. I was fortunate enough to have four
grandparents. One died when I was 11, one when I was 17, and the
others lasted until I was grown. My paternal grandmother met my
Kirby, who was named after her eldest child, my dad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 14, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
David was an only child, his parents died when he was only 24 or 25, within a few months of each other and from different causes. His only close relative, an uncle who lives in the same town we do, cut him off after his mother's funeral because he was in a same-sex relationship at the time (never mind that his lover had spent at least the year before his mother's cancer diagnosis living with David's parents and caring for them while David was out of state in school. Bastard.)
.
The only time we've heard from any of his family in 17 years is once when they needed him to sign off on a great-aunt's will.
Maybe it comes from being queer, but very often one of the losses you suffer (or did when I was a young adult; hopefully that's changing) is of your biological family. I think my own experiences with that disapproval or enforced silence or lack of acceptance (and David's, too) makes me less sentimental about biological family than a lot of people are. My kids aren't close to my parents, although we see them a few times a year, because my parents aren't people you can get close to. I have a pretty comfortable relationship with my folks right now, but I wouldn't think I was damaging my kids if i still had the crap relationship with my parents I had in my 20s and early 30s and wasn't choosing to see them.
I sound all bitter and nasty and I'm not really. I'm just... less inclined to give parents as much slack as it seems like most people do.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> -=-My partner's parents had the good grace to die a year before IIt was a joke. It was my way of saying, "This is my experience; YMMV," which ought to always be implicit anyway. I actually feel it as a loss in my life that I didn't know Dan and Lucille, and that the kids didn't know that set of grandparents (they had died, oh, 10 or 11 years before our oldest was born). David claims they would have loved me and vice versa, especially his mom, but that's easy to claim--he says sometimes it's easier to love your dead parents than your live ones, because they've stopped doing all those annoying things they used to do.
> started seeing him, so I don't have in-law issues.-=-
>
> I hope one of my kids doesn't marry someone someday who would write
> that about me, had I died before he or she met me.
David was an only child, his parents died when he was only 24 or 25, within a few months of each other and from different causes. His only close relative, an uncle who lives in the same town we do, cut him off after his mother's funeral because he was in a same-sex relationship at the time (never mind that his lover had spent at least the year before his mother's cancer diagnosis living with David's parents and caring for them while David was out of state in school. Bastard.)
.
The only time we've heard from any of his family in 17 years is once when they needed him to sign off on a great-aunt's will.
Maybe it comes from being queer, but very often one of the losses you suffer (or did when I was a young adult; hopefully that's changing) is of your biological family. I think my own experiences with that disapproval or enforced silence or lack of acceptance (and David's, too) makes me less sentimental about biological family than a lot of people are. My kids aren't close to my parents, although we see them a few times a year, because my parents aren't people you can get close to. I have a pretty comfortable relationship with my folks right now, but I wouldn't think I was damaging my kids if i still had the crap relationship with my parents I had in my 20s and early 30s and wasn't choosing to see them.
I sound all bitter and nasty and I'm not really. I'm just... less inclined to give parents as much slack as it seems like most people do.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
ohsoverymom
>>How and why would you reword the last one?
My first thought was "why are your kids on my coffee table!?"
>>Ha, when they're 15 months old and just learning to climb everything I don't think being sharp with them is the answer, they're babies! So I'd reword it to something sweeter, "Oh what are you doing up here? Let's go find a ball."
~ Jessica
ohsoverymom
>>I absolutely agree that she shouldn't pierce or tattoo visitors in her
home against their mother's will. She shouldn't give them haircuts.
She has authority over the dispensing of the food she has bought and
prepared, though.
And so I think it's okay for the mom to feed her kids with food she's
brought, but not to require hosts to feed her kids on her or their
schedule.
>>I like this perspective, it's one I hadn't really considered. I'm too busy feeling 'mama bear' over making sure my children aren't crying with hunger pains at 5:00 because dinner isn't until 6 and they've been kicked out of the kitchen.
We had a good talk on the tele last night, after I'd posted some of this and I got to explain (again, but it seemed to have been taken better) that my children know when they're hungry and that snacks in between meals are beneficial, and don't 'destroy' their appetites for full meals. They're growing boys who do a lot of active rough and tumble play. Three square meals a day just isn't quite enough.
I find the whole strict meal time schedule, no snacks in between, no dessert if you don't clean your plate stuff so... mind boggling. Special rules constructed just for children. Because certainly, if an adult needs a little nibble on this or that to tide them over until lunch, they go get it. If an adult is full to bursting and can't finish their meal they stop eating. If an adult dislikes mushrooms, they avoid them.
~ Jessica
ohsoverymom
>>When we visited Keith's parents, and his mom was pretty much that way
about food, we would offer to go to the store, or just say "We're
going out a bit," and take the kids for a burger if they wanted.
Turns out Keith had survived his teen years in just that fashion, so
his mother would swear in court she had limited his intake, but
because he lived where food was for sale at drive-throughs, she
couldn't even begin to. When he was the last child at home, he had a
best friend who was the oldest of eight or nine kids, and would eat at
their house, too. One more kid wasn't a big deal for them.
>>I wonder what powered that for your MIL, if it was a weight issue or a discipline issue or just old school child rearing? My MIL has the strangest relationship with food and nobody is sure why. She had five children and looks great, though I know you can look amazing and still find things about yourself to hate.
She will make just enough rolls for each person at the table to have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal and still want more when there isn't any?"
My husband, his brother, and their father would do just what you describe - eat extra food by going through drive throughs, stop in at gas stations to purchase snacks, or in the case of my husband and his brother, eat at friend's houses.
Given all that though, my FIL seems to have some old school ideas as well too - has told the children they must clean their plates for dessert or gotten them a snack but insisted they had to eat it all. I've always stepped in and given them dessert anyway or swept away their snack if they were full and didn't finish it. Nobody has seemed upset at this.
~Jessica
ohsoverymom
>>Have you asked her why she does this and then really listened to her reasons rather than just telling her what you expect her to do?
>>Good question! You know, I don't know if I have in such a point blank manner. I've gathered from things she's said and just how she is in regard to food that:
a) She believes children need to be regulated, that they'll over eat if not watched carefully, that they'll 'spoil' their dinners if they snack at 3pm.
b) Has her own food issues, thinks we all need to eat less, be hungry more. Is afraid of being fat, wishes she was thinner. Used to worry about my very plump babies and ask me if I worried about them too (no I did not, good grief).
c) Doesn't like kids to be underfoot while she's cooking, doesn't like the kitchen to be 'gotten into' between meals. My mom doesn't like this either and I admit I get frustrated sometimes if I've got a toddler hanging off one leg while I'm trying to get a meal on the table.
From this conversation on this list, I think the next time it comes up or we talk about it I'll have to apologize for any unintentioned offense by bringing our own food and ask if she's got an actual reason for the no eating between meals thing.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wonder what powered that for your MIL, if it was a weight issue
or a discipline issue or just old school child rearing?-=-
The Depression, WWII, being a nurse, being a controlling, disdainful
person.
-=-She will make just enough rolls for each person at the table to
have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of
family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at
the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal
and still want more when there isn't any?" -=-
Yep. Thanksgiving at their house was not a feast. It was a meal with
a traditional menu. One pie. That's it. You didn't need more turkey.
The extra is already in the freezer for them for next week.
It's got nothing to do with abundance, that's for sure.
Sandra
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or a discipline issue or just old school child rearing?-=-
The Depression, WWII, being a nurse, being a controlling, disdainful
person.
-=-She will make just enough rolls for each person at the table to
have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of
family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at
the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal
and still want more when there isn't any?" -=-
Yep. Thanksgiving at their house was not a feast. It was a meal with
a traditional menu. One pie. That's it. You didn't need more turkey.
The extra is already in the freezer for them for next week.
It's got nothing to do with abundance, that's for sure.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I find the whole strict meal time schedule, no snacks in between,
no dessert if you don't clean your plate stuff so... mind boggling.
Special rules constructed just for children. Because certainly, if an
adult needs a little nibble on this or that to tide them over until
lunch, they go get it. -=-
Depends.
Scheduled formal meals have to do with great houses and servants and
only eating when the man of the house eats, don't pick your spoon up
before the hostess does, etc. In such cases, there are many people
without the freedom to scrounge in the kitchen.
The only holdover I ever hear about is the White House. Surely there
are rich people somewhere who have formal meals and dress up and sit
in some precedential order, but it's not in New Mexico.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
no dessert if you don't clean your plate stuff so... mind boggling.
Special rules constructed just for children. Because certainly, if an
adult needs a little nibble on this or that to tide them over until
lunch, they go get it. -=-
Depends.
Scheduled formal meals have to do with great houses and servants and
only eating when the man of the house eats, don't pick your spoon up
before the hostess does, etc. In such cases, there are many people
without the freedom to scrounge in the kitchen.
The only holdover I ever hear about is the White House. Surely there
are rich people somewhere who have formal meals and dress up and sit
in some precedential order, but it's not in New Mexico.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Ha, when they're 15 months old and just learning to climb
everything I don't think being sharp with them is the answer, they're
babies! So I'd reword it to something sweeter, "Oh what are you doing
up here? Let's go find a ball." -=-
If they're just babies, the mom should be right there.
If they're just babies, why talk to them about what they're doing?
Gently pick them up and find something cool to show them.
It's not the babies' responsibility to take care of other people's
belongings; it's the mother's responsibility.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
everything I don't think being sharp with them is the answer, they're
babies! So I'd reword it to something sweeter, "Oh what are you doing
up here? Let's go find a ball." -=-
If they're just babies, the mom should be right there.
If they're just babies, why talk to them about what they're doing?
Gently pick them up and find something cool to show them.
It's not the babies' responsibility to take care of other people's
belongings; it's the mother's responsibility.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== From this conversation on this list, I think the next time it comes up or we talk about it I'll have to apologize for any unintentioned offense by bringing our own food and ask if she's got an actual reason for the no eating between meals thing.==
Asking her why she does certain things a certain way in a nonjudgmental, noncritical manner could lead to some interesting conversations and a better understanding of each other and a closer relationship. With all those issues around food, do you suppose anyone has ever listened to how she feels about it all?
Alysia
Asking her why she does certain things a certain way in a nonjudgmental, noncritical manner could lead to some interesting conversations and a better understanding of each other and a closer relationship. With all those issues around food, do you suppose anyone has ever listened to how she feels about it all?
Alysia
Kelly Halldorson
-=-She will make just enough rolls for each person at the table to
have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of
family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at
the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal
and still want more when there isn't any?" -=-
It's funny when you step back and see things differently. For me food was the *first* thing that came...it happened even before I took my kids out of school. And I believe my perspective change there helped pave the way for a perspective change on the academic/learning end of things. (along with other influences)
But this is how it unfolded for me.
When the kids were young holidays were always particularly stress inducing...mostly because of food issues. My middle son, Griffin, was a extremely "picky" eater (and generally a strongly free thinking, nonconformist individual) and none of my family approved of that.
Lots of you really have to teach him this or that. You really need to get him in control etc...
One time we were at a holiday dinner at a family members home...Christmas maybe. I had already decided I was going to let my kids eat whatever they wanted...but was feeling uneasy about following through...then...
My aunt has three kids the same ages of mine. I watched my her dish out for for her kids...mashed potatoes with gravy & butter, rolls with butter, green beans, ham, turkey with gravy...etc --- her kids asked if they could have some of the fruit salad (fresh cut, no sugar added beautiful fruit salad). She said, "No, you have to eat the meal first."
It boggled my mind that someone would have to eat the "unhealthy" foods before the healthy foods. It felt like there was no purpose other than to control the kids. I mean, my thought *had* always been at least it made some sort of sense to eat a "healthy" dinner before ice cream or some other "unhealthy" dessert.
Now we often have ice cream for dinner or burritos for breakfast and nothing for dessert.
Kelly
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of
family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at
the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal
and still want more when there isn't any?" -=-
It's funny when you step back and see things differently. For me food was the *first* thing that came...it happened even before I took my kids out of school. And I believe my perspective change there helped pave the way for a perspective change on the academic/learning end of things. (along with other influences)
But this is how it unfolded for me.
When the kids were young holidays were always particularly stress inducing...mostly because of food issues. My middle son, Griffin, was a extremely "picky" eater (and generally a strongly free thinking, nonconformist individual) and none of my family approved of that.
Lots of you really have to teach him this or that. You really need to get him in control etc...
One time we were at a holiday dinner at a family members home...Christmas maybe. I had already decided I was going to let my kids eat whatever they wanted...but was feeling uneasy about following through...then...
My aunt has three kids the same ages of mine. I watched my her dish out for for her kids...mashed potatoes with gravy & butter, rolls with butter, green beans, ham, turkey with gravy...etc --- her kids asked if they could have some of the fruit salad (fresh cut, no sugar added beautiful fruit salad). She said, "No, you have to eat the meal first."
It boggled my mind that someone would have to eat the "unhealthy" foods before the healthy foods. It felt like there was no purpose other than to control the kids. I mean, my thought *had* always been at least it made some sort of sense to eat a "healthy" dinner before ice cream or some other "unhealthy" dessert.
Now we often have ice cream for dinner or burritos for breakfast and nothing for dessert.
Kelly
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
My in-laws are quite strict about food. They have breakfast and than coffee with a snack and then lunch and then tea and then dinner with a dessert. The meals aren't large but they are very concerned that all is eaten. They both lived through WWII in the UK with ration books extending into the 1950s. I am so certain that their childhoods of need coloured their experiences with food all the way through their lives into their late 70s. I don't imagine they will ever feel that food is something to make assumptions about.
When we visit we have had stores of food in the bedroom, we've tried to go out and get food during the day as much as possible. My mil isn't keen on us spending lots of money, so we don't talk about what we do when we are out, except in broad terms, in generalities. David is much better at dealing with his parents than I will ever be, so he does most of that. As Simon and Linnaea have gotten older they have been much better at recognizing the limitations of a visit with their grandparents. And I'm much better at being softer with my in-laws than I used to be, mostly.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: ohsoverymom <verymom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 14 May, 2010 3:30:48
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Meal time restrictions
Ugh! What do you do when visiting friends or family who won't let your children eat between meals? It makes me nuts. My children know when they're hungry and aren't just eating because they're glutinous pigs. NOR are they going to 'spoil their dinner' if they don't eat it, it's because they don't like what you made. And I'm sorry, adults are allowed to not like certain types of food, why aren't children?
We've started bringing a hoard of snacks in our luggage and the kids sneak into the guest room to eat a granola bar or something to tide them over until the official meal time.
I forgot our stash last week and my six year old was crying at the counter while his grandmother cooked dinner. She refused to let him nibble so much as a piece of bread. I had gone out to run an errand or I would have marched in there and given him what he wanted.
When we all sat down to eat, he downed four full platefuls of rice, meatballs, and heaps of green beans. She was floored.
"Oh, I guess he really was hungry?"
Um, yes.
~Jessica
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When we visit we have had stores of food in the bedroom, we've tried to go out and get food during the day as much as possible. My mil isn't keen on us spending lots of money, so we don't talk about what we do when we are out, except in broad terms, in generalities. David is much better at dealing with his parents than I will ever be, so he does most of that. As Simon and Linnaea have gotten older they have been much better at recognizing the limitations of a visit with their grandparents. And I'm much better at being softer with my in-laws than I used to be, mostly.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: ohsoverymom <verymom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 14 May, 2010 3:30:48
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Meal time restrictions
Ugh! What do you do when visiting friends or family who won't let your children eat between meals? It makes me nuts. My children know when they're hungry and aren't just eating because they're glutinous pigs. NOR are they going to 'spoil their dinner' if they don't eat it, it's because they don't like what you made. And I'm sorry, adults are allowed to not like certain types of food, why aren't children?
We've started bringing a hoard of snacks in our luggage and the kids sneak into the guest room to eat a granola bar or something to tide them over until the official meal time.
I forgot our stash last week and my six year old was crying at the counter while his grandmother cooked dinner. She refused to let him nibble so much as a piece of bread. I had gone out to run an errand or I would have marched in there and given him what he wanted.
When we all sat down to eat, he downed four full platefuls of rice, meatballs, and heaps of green beans. She was floored.
"Oh, I guess he really was hungry?"
Um, yes.
~Jessica
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow66
"
makes me laugh. when my mom cooks she seems to have a difficult time judgeing how much is needed per person. for example she will scramble like 6 eggs and there are 8 of us eating. we have 4 kids, all who love to eat eggs and I make atleast 10 eggs for just us. If I say something like, I am not sure that is enough eggs mom. She just shrugs and says something like, "well I am not eating much". Evidently either are we!
Drives my husband crazy cause this goes for pancakes too. Like she will make one recipe of pancakes and he never makes less than three. My husband is always afraid there will not be enough and my mother always thinks there is too much. On pancake days he always tries to get up early and volunteers to cook for her so he can make lots of pancakes.
I think she has figured him out but she is ok with since she gets a break.
> -=-She will make just enough rolls for each person at the table to"
> have one. No seconds. Instead of making plenty of food for a crowd of
> family (say Thanksgiving) she'll make sure we're all left wanting at
> the end. Has said aloud, "Isn't that just perfect? To finish a meal
> and still want more when there isn't any?" -=-
>
makes me laugh. when my mom cooks she seems to have a difficult time judgeing how much is needed per person. for example she will scramble like 6 eggs and there are 8 of us eating. we have 4 kids, all who love to eat eggs and I make atleast 10 eggs for just us. If I say something like, I am not sure that is enough eggs mom. She just shrugs and says something like, "well I am not eating much". Evidently either are we!
Drives my husband crazy cause this goes for pancakes too. Like she will make one recipe of pancakes and he never makes less than three. My husband is always afraid there will not be enough and my mother always thinks there is too much. On pancake days he always tries to get up early and volunteers to cook for her so he can make lots of pancakes.
I think she has figured him out but she is ok with since she gets a break.
ohsoverymom
>>I'm not always right there. I'm not glued to my children 100% of the time. They play. If I see the baby on the furniture at my in laws, I pull him off, I don't yell at him.
> If they're just babies, the mom should be right there.
> If they're just babies, why talk to them about what they're doing?
> Gently pick them up and find something cool to show them.
>
> It's not the babies' responsibility to take care of other people's
> belongings; it's the mother's responsibility.
>>
JoyErin
-= They have breakfast and than coffee with a snack and then lunch and then
tea and then dinner with a dessert. =- My UK mil, born during the war is
the same. When we go out it's always better
if we can stop somewhere for the needed tea breaks. I've grown to like the
breaks but took me a few times to remember to make sure it was a part of any
planned outing.
-= The meals aren't large but they are very concerned that all is eaten.
=- Same with us - in that the meals aren't large. I've seen my mil leave
half her meal on her plate more than once and only certain
leftovers are kept (cooked veggies I think - my least favorite leftovers
<g>). Yet mil had tried to get the kids to eat everything on their plates.
This had confused me as the two didn't seem to connect to me.
Thinking about it now though... maybe she thinks, or thought, it's important
for children to eat a lot at the meal times because they are young and have
lots of growing yet to do.
-= When we visit we have had stores of food in the bedroom, we've tried to
go out and get food during the day as much as possible. =-
oh yes! lol We definitely do that as well. When we first moved over here
to the UK we lived with mil without a car for 2 weeks! My own mother was
the kind of person who always made to much and always had
leftovers for later and I hadn't experienced mil's way of doing things
before and was unprepared for the food issue. My husband doesn't remember
very much from his childhood. Dh and I tried to make sure the kids
always had enough to eat so ur own servings at meal times would end up being
very small. Dh lost about 10 pounds in those 2 weeks and I lost about 5!
We were ok with losing a couple of pounds but being hungry
doesn't help with patience in a situation when we needed it even more.
Joy K
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tea and then dinner with a dessert. =- My UK mil, born during the war is
the same. When we go out it's always better
if we can stop somewhere for the needed tea breaks. I've grown to like the
breaks but took me a few times to remember to make sure it was a part of any
planned outing.
-= The meals aren't large but they are very concerned that all is eaten.
=- Same with us - in that the meals aren't large. I've seen my mil leave
half her meal on her plate more than once and only certain
leftovers are kept (cooked veggies I think - my least favorite leftovers
<g>). Yet mil had tried to get the kids to eat everything on their plates.
This had confused me as the two didn't seem to connect to me.
Thinking about it now though... maybe she thinks, or thought, it's important
for children to eat a lot at the meal times because they are young and have
lots of growing yet to do.
-= When we visit we have had stores of food in the bedroom, we've tried to
go out and get food during the day as much as possible. =-
oh yes! lol We definitely do that as well. When we first moved over here
to the UK we lived with mil without a car for 2 weeks! My own mother was
the kind of person who always made to much and always had
leftovers for later and I hadn't experienced mil's way of doing things
before and was unprepared for the food issue. My husband doesn't remember
very much from his childhood. Dh and I tried to make sure the kids
always had enough to eat so ur own servings at meal times would end up being
very small. Dh lost about 10 pounds in those 2 weeks and I lost about 5!
We were ok with losing a couple of pounds but being hungry
doesn't help with patience in a situation when we needed it even more.
Joy K
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==when my mom cooks she seems to have a difficult time judgeing how much is needed per person. for example she will scramble like 6 eggs and there are 8 of us eating. we have 4 kids, all who love to eat eggs and I make atleast 10 eggs for just us. If I say something like, I am not sure that is enough eggs mom. She just shrugs and says something like, "well I am not eating much". Evidently either are we!==
Another thing to consider is older people don't eat as much. My dad is 70 and my mom is 67. I've seen the portions my mother eats get smaller and smaller over the years. I'm now the one who worries that she doesn't eat enough. My dad has stomach problems so he can only handle small amounts of food at a time. Since most of the time they are cooking only for themselves (they're divorced), it makes sense that they would have a hard time figuring out how much food to make for a group of growing children.
Alysia
Another thing to consider is older people don't eat as much. My dad is 70 and my mom is 67. I've seen the portions my mother eats get smaller and smaller over the years. I'm now the one who worries that she doesn't eat enough. My dad has stomach problems so he can only handle small amounts of food at a time. Since most of the time they are cooking only for themselves (they're divorced), it makes sense that they would have a hard time figuring out how much food to make for a group of growing children.
Alysia
keetry
==David is much better at dealing with his parents than I will ever be, so he does most of that.==
My husband and I have come to the agreement that, as much as possible, I will deal with issues with my parents and he will deal with issues with his dad. It's usually a lot easier and more comfortable for everyone that way.
Alysia
My husband and I have come to the agreement that, as much as possible, I will deal with issues with my parents and he will deal with issues with his dad. It's usually a lot easier and more comfortable for everyone that way.
Alysia
eintob, d.a.
I have the opposite problem with my mother. She grew up very poor in a remote village in the Phillippines. She never had enough until she married my dad. She cannot estimate how much food to cook...she cooks enough to feed an army and still have leftovers for a week. If my kids look bored she offers food. She carries candy and gum in her purse and is always stuffing something in my kids' mouths. I unfortunately seem to have inherited the same problem and can't cook proper portions either. And nobody tends to eat the leftovers (except me) but it's not okay to throw them out until at least 7 days have gone by.
~Michelle
~Michelle
--- In [email protected], "lalow66" <lalow@...> wrote:
> makes me laugh. when my mom cooks she seems to have a difficult time judgeing how much is needed per person. for example she will scramble like 6 eggs and there are 8 of us eating. we have 4 kids, all who love to eat eggs and I make atleast 10 eggs for just us. If I say something like, I am not sure that is enough eggs mom. She just shrugs and says something like, "well I am not eating much". Evidently either are we!
> Drives my husband crazy cause this goes for pancakes too. Like she will make one recipe of pancakes and he never makes less than three. My husband is always afraid there will not be enough and my mother always thinks there is too much. On pancake days he always tries to get up early and volunteers to cook for her so he can make lots of pancakes.
> I think she has figured him out but she is ok with since she gets a break.
>