[AlwaysLearning] Attraction -- was Influences - Libertarian
Kelly Halldorson
+++>As a religious belief - it's a nice one. Problem is, they claim it is science based on quantum physics.<+++
I think science is it's own form of religion. I don't know enough about quantum physics to make any kind of *educated* statement on it. Neither are of that much interest to me personally other than I'm interested in why people are so interested in them.
+++>Bigger problem is that there are unschoolers who claim that adding Law of Attraction is advanced unschooling.<+++
Maybe it is to them, that is not a threat to me...or what I or my family do. I just don't see it as a problem. Maybe it's easier for me to come to that point of view because I'm newer to unschooling and I don't feel any kind of vested interest or ownership about what it means. Maybe not.
I can certainly understand/get the perspective. I just don't share it.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think science is it's own form of religion. I don't know enough about quantum physics to make any kind of *educated* statement on it. Neither are of that much interest to me personally other than I'm interested in why people are so interested in them.
+++>Bigger problem is that there are unschoolers who claim that adding Law of Attraction is advanced unschooling.<+++
Maybe it is to them, that is not a threat to me...or what I or my family do. I just don't see it as a problem. Maybe it's easier for me to come to that point of view because I'm newer to unschooling and I don't feel any kind of vested interest or ownership about what it means. Maybe not.
I can certainly understand/get the perspective. I just don't share it.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/10/2010 1:41 PM, Kelly Halldorson wrote:
it doesn't bother you. It's clearly not a threat to me - my unschooled
kids are grown. The problem is that people come across
radical-unschooling-law-of-attraction-style and think that is what
radical unschooling is. If they aren't interested in accepting the Law
of Attraction belief system, they can be turned off of unschooling. In
case you think that's not likely, I've already had people tell me that
they would not unschool because it is associated with a bunch of
new-agey stuff.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> +++>Bigger problem is that there are unschoolers who claim that addingKind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to you means
> Law of Attraction is advanced unschooling.<+++
>
> Maybe it is to them, that is not a threat to me...or what I or my
> family do. I just don't see it as a problem. Maybe it's easier for me
> to come to that point of view because I'm newer to unschooling and I
> don't feel any kind of vested interest or ownership about what it
> means. Maybe not.
it doesn't bother you. It's clearly not a threat to me - my unschooled
kids are grown. The problem is that people come across
radical-unschooling-law-of-attraction-style and think that is what
radical unschooling is. If they aren't interested in accepting the Law
of Attraction belief system, they can be turned off of unschooling. In
case you think that's not likely, I've already had people tell me that
they would not unschool because it is associated with a bunch of
new-agey stuff.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Halldorson
+++
Note to moderators/owner: If this post is inappropriate please just hold it back. I will not be offended. I will not be upset. No biggie. I do hope it's not because I've tried hard to respond kindly, respectfully and keep it on topic. But again no biggie.
+++
I wrote:
===>Kind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to you means
it doesn't bother you. <===
"selfish attitude" ? because I *choose* to not allow other people's life choices to affect me in a negative way?
===>It's clearly not a threat to me - my unschooled
kids are grown. <===
But you are paid to speak about unschooling, yes?
My children are currently unschooling. We do *not* do/invoke/whatever the Law of Attraction component. We do have friends that do, good friends. And they remain our friends and support us even though that piece is not a part of our life.
===>The problem is that people come across
radical-unschooling-law-of-attraction-style and think that is what
radical unschooling is. <===
Those are people who are only looking at the surface. There are also people, I'm sure who come to unschooling *because* of the Law of Attraction component. It could be a gateway. I don't personally understand the connection (at all) but other people do. If it leads them to a more peaceful loving life with their children. That's great, from my perspective. What if one of your *kids* (I realize they are grown now) had a sudden interest in Law of Attraction? Would you honor that interest?
===>If they aren't interested in accepting the Law
of Attraction belief system, they can be turned off of unschooling.<===
That's unfortunate but I would argue their interest wasn't that strong to begin with. And probably not open enough to *get* unschooling (at least the whole life unschooling) if they already have such a strong negative attachment to it.
===> In case you think that's not likely, I've already had people tell me that
they would not unschool because it is associated with a bunch of
new-agey stuff."<===
Oh, I'm sure it's likely. I don't dispute you on that at all. I'm sure you've seen that before. I am sure some of those people just were not open to unschooling at all and maybe that was just an excuse used to avoid discussing it further?
I will say that although I call myself new to unschooling. I first joined an unschooling over four years ago. I have been a reading member of this list since the summer of 2008? I have only in the last year and a half embrassed the term unschooling for our family...however well before that I would say we are "unschooly." We have been living without curriculum for over three years now and my kids are 15, 13 & 12.
One of the biggest turn-offs for new unschoolers that *I* have seen (you have way more experience with this but I do actually meet a lot of almost unschoolers or interested in unschooling through my activism here in NH)...anyway....the biggest turn-off I've seen and heard is about *unschooling dogma* or about judgments from other unschooling parents.
===>I think the point may have been misunderstood. I doubt anybody here
objects to people choosing to believe in anything they choose to believe
in, including the law of attraction, libertarianism, or anything else.<===
The only thing I have to say here is...libertarian thought/philosophy (again I'm not talking about the Libertarian political party either) is just that it is *not* religion or a *belief system* it's a philosophy. It's not based on anything spiritual or supernatural or whatever. It's a philosophical perspective on governing people. Much like unschooling is a philosophical perspective on parenting.
===>I think it is unethical for people to go around identifying unschooling
with the law of attraction or with libertarianism or Christianity or any
other particular belief system.00<===
Unethical? Really...why? I am totally bewildered. And to stay on topic how does that make you a better unschooling parent? Is grouping it with mindfulness (and yes, I read the explanation on page 199 of Sandra's book), Attachment Parenting or La Leche League...unethical?
I truly do not understand. I'm open to hearing though...and I hope that I have not come of angry, upset or otherwise...I am enjoying the discussion (although, I'm very concerned about being unintentionally hurtful - email can be a challenging medium in that way).
Trying to understand,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Note to moderators/owner: If this post is inappropriate please just hold it back. I will not be offended. I will not be upset. No biggie. I do hope it's not because I've tried hard to respond kindly, respectfully and keep it on topic. But again no biggie.
+++
I wrote:
> Maybe it is to them, that is not a threat to me...or what I or myPam wrote:
> family do. I just don't see it as a problem. Maybe it's easier for me
> to come to that point of view because I'm newer to unschooling and I
> don't feel any kind of vested interest or ownership about what it
> means. Maybe not.
===>Kind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to you means
it doesn't bother you. <===
"selfish attitude" ? because I *choose* to not allow other people's life choices to affect me in a negative way?
===>It's clearly not a threat to me - my unschooled
kids are grown. <===
But you are paid to speak about unschooling, yes?
My children are currently unschooling. We do *not* do/invoke/whatever the Law of Attraction component. We do have friends that do, good friends. And they remain our friends and support us even though that piece is not a part of our life.
===>The problem is that people come across
radical-unschooling-law-of-attraction-style and think that is what
radical unschooling is. <===
Those are people who are only looking at the surface. There are also people, I'm sure who come to unschooling *because* of the Law of Attraction component. It could be a gateway. I don't personally understand the connection (at all) but other people do. If it leads them to a more peaceful loving life with their children. That's great, from my perspective. What if one of your *kids* (I realize they are grown now) had a sudden interest in Law of Attraction? Would you honor that interest?
===>If they aren't interested in accepting the Law
of Attraction belief system, they can be turned off of unschooling.<===
That's unfortunate but I would argue their interest wasn't that strong to begin with. And probably not open enough to *get* unschooling (at least the whole life unschooling) if they already have such a strong negative attachment to it.
===> In case you think that's not likely, I've already had people tell me that
they would not unschool because it is associated with a bunch of
new-agey stuff."<===
Oh, I'm sure it's likely. I don't dispute you on that at all. I'm sure you've seen that before. I am sure some of those people just were not open to unschooling at all and maybe that was just an excuse used to avoid discussing it further?
I will say that although I call myself new to unschooling. I first joined an unschooling over four years ago. I have been a reading member of this list since the summer of 2008? I have only in the last year and a half embrassed the term unschooling for our family...however well before that I would say we are "unschooly." We have been living without curriculum for over three years now and my kids are 15, 13 & 12.
One of the biggest turn-offs for new unschoolers that *I* have seen (you have way more experience with this but I do actually meet a lot of almost unschoolers or interested in unschooling through my activism here in NH)...anyway....the biggest turn-off I've seen and heard is about *unschooling dogma* or about judgments from other unschooling parents.
===>I think the point may have been misunderstood. I doubt anybody here
objects to people choosing to believe in anything they choose to believe
in, including the law of attraction, libertarianism, or anything else.<===
The only thing I have to say here is...libertarian thought/philosophy (again I'm not talking about the Libertarian political party either) is just that it is *not* religion or a *belief system* it's a philosophy. It's not based on anything spiritual or supernatural or whatever. It's a philosophical perspective on governing people. Much like unschooling is a philosophical perspective on parenting.
===>I think it is unethical for people to go around identifying unschooling
with the law of attraction or with libertarianism or Christianity or any
other particular belief system.00<===
Unethical? Really...why? I am totally bewildered. And to stay on topic how does that make you a better unschooling parent? Is grouping it with mindfulness (and yes, I read the explanation on page 199 of Sandra's book), Attachment Parenting or La Leche League...unethical?
I truly do not understand. I'm open to hearing though...and I hope that I have not come of angry, upset or otherwise...I am enjoying the discussion (although, I'm very concerned about being unintentionally hurtful - email can be a challenging medium in that way).
Trying to understand,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-===>Kind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to
you means
it doesn't bother you. <===
-=-"selfish attitude" ? because I *choose* to not allow other people's
life choices to affect me in a negative way? -=-
No. Not because of that. Because you seemed to be saying that if it
doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone.
It might not bother an individual mom that the hospital gave her a
case of free formula and her baby shower was mostly baby bottles, even
though she intends to breastfeed. She might give all that stuff away
without another thought, and breastfeed without a problem in the world.
That wouldn't change the fact that those 'gifts' from the hospital,
and that family-and-friends pressure is harmful to breastfeeding in
general.
Pam's kids are grown. Joyce's daughter is grown. My kids are grown.
We're still helping other people understand unschooling. Many others
are here too whose kids are teens, who have been examining unschooling
carefully, and sharing with others, for five or ten years or more.
They can help more easily if the topic can be seen more clearly.
If it doesn't hurt your unschooling, that doesn't mean it's in no
danger of keeping others from understanding unschooling as directly
and clearly as possible, for the good of their children and of
peaceful relationships in their family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you means
it doesn't bother you. <===
-=-"selfish attitude" ? because I *choose* to not allow other people's
life choices to affect me in a negative way? -=-
No. Not because of that. Because you seemed to be saying that if it
doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone.
It might not bother an individual mom that the hospital gave her a
case of free formula and her baby shower was mostly baby bottles, even
though she intends to breastfeed. She might give all that stuff away
without another thought, and breastfeed without a problem in the world.
That wouldn't change the fact that those 'gifts' from the hospital,
and that family-and-friends pressure is harmful to breastfeeding in
general.
Pam's kids are grown. Joyce's daughter is grown. My kids are grown.
We're still helping other people understand unschooling. Many others
are here too whose kids are teens, who have been examining unschooling
carefully, and sharing with others, for five or ten years or more.
They can help more easily if the topic can be seen more clearly.
If it doesn't hurt your unschooling, that doesn't mean it's in no
danger of keeping others from understanding unschooling as directly
and clearly as possible, for the good of their children and of
peaceful relationships in their family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
This is way too much writing for a simple idea. I think people should
try to be clear about what they are really talking about...if they are
talking about combining unschooling with their own personal beliefs
(political or religious), they should be clear that that is what they
are talking about and not claim to be speaking about unschooling, in
general.
===>Kind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to you means
it doesn't bother you.<===
"selfish attitude" ? because I*choose* to not allow other people's life choices to affect me in a negative way?
Selfish in the sense that you don't care if others might be misled,
confused, or deterred, as long as it doesn't affect your own family.
registration fee (always for me, sometimes for my family) and sometimes
they give me a hotel room for all or part of the conference. Sometimes I
get reimbursed for part of my transportation costs and occasionally some
food expenses. I don't think I have ever even broken even - it has
always ended up costing me to speak at a conference.
Did you picture unschooling speakers as out there making big bucks on
the speaker circuit? There are those who seem to be trying to do that,
but I doubt they're making much. I like it that unschooling is mostly
not being touted by people making a bunch of money off it. With no
vested financial interest, I'm free to say what I want to say.
nice to hang out with. But, so what? I have all kinds of friends with
all kinds of beliefs. We're not talking about who to be friends with.
I put a fairly large amount of time and effort into helping people
better understand unschooling. Some people promote their own brand of
unschooling (unschooling libertarians, unschooling through Law of
Attraction, unschooling Christianity, etc) in the news media, to the
public, to people online, etc. and call it unschooling - as if their
personal belief system, philosophy, political agenda, or religion are
part and parcel OF unschooling, in general. I don't like it and I think
they should make it clear that they are not, in fact, talking just about
unschooling. I think they muddy the waters and that it is already
difficult enough to talk clearly about unschooling and they make it
harder when they don't distinguish between what they, themselves,
believe in versus what unschooling is.
to do with metaphysics.
metaphysics or politics or anything else - I have no problem with that.
It is when they claim that what they are writing or speaking about IS
unschooling that I have a problem with it.
have conversations about it, etc? Done.
were having serious problems at school and parents considered
homeschooling, but the only homeschoolers they came across identified
homeschooling as something for Christians. That kept people from
pursuing homeschooling, sometimes for years.
another. Two wrongs make a right?
not equating "belief" with anything supernatural or religious.
unschooling with this other belief system," and honest would be to take
care that I was clear about that.
rather than less?
about attachment parenting, then yes. Most people involved in attachment
parenting don't even homeschool, much less unschool. If they claimed
unschooling was the same as breastfeeding? Huh?
almost none of that on any unschooling lists. It isn't relevant to those
who don't share them with me and I'm not here to persuade or argue
religion or politics. If I wanted to talk with other unschoolers about
how unschooling relates to my own particular religious or political
beliefs, I'd make it clear that that is what we were talking about and
they could choose to participate or not. I don't NEED people to share
my political or religious beliefs in order to talk with them about
unschooling, though. If I say I'm talking about unschooling, I don't
push my politics or my religion as if they are unschooling. I don't
claim that unschooling combined with my belief systems (political or
religious) is more advanced unschooling.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
try to be clear about what they are really talking about...if they are
talking about combining unschooling with their own personal beliefs
(political or religious), they should be clear that that is what they
are talking about and not claim to be speaking about unschooling, in
general.
> > Maybe it is to them, that is not a threat to me...or what I or myPam wrote:
> > family do. I just don't see it as a problem. Maybe it's easier for me
> > to come to that point of view because I'm newer to unschooling and I
> > don't feel any kind of vested interest or ownership about what it
> > means. Maybe not.
>
===>Kind of a selfish attitude, though - that it isn't a threat to you means
it doesn't bother you.<===
"selfish attitude" ? because I*choose* to not allow other people's life choices to affect me in a negative way?
Selfish in the sense that you don't care if others might be misled,
confused, or deterred, as long as it doesn't affect your own family.
> ===>It's clearly not a threat to me - my unschooledReally? I sometimes have gotten to go to conferences without paying the
> kids are grown.<===
>
> But you are paid to speak about unschooling, yes?
>
registration fee (always for me, sometimes for my family) and sometimes
they give me a hotel room for all or part of the conference. Sometimes I
get reimbursed for part of my transportation costs and occasionally some
food expenses. I don't think I have ever even broken even - it has
always ended up costing me to speak at a conference.
Did you picture unschooling speakers as out there making big bucks on
the speaker circuit? There are those who seem to be trying to do that,
but I doubt they're making much. I like it that unschooling is mostly
not being touted by people making a bunch of money off it. With no
vested financial interest, I'm free to say what I want to say.
> My children are currently unschooling. We do*not* do/invoke/whatever the Law of Attraction component. We do have friends that do, good friends. And they remain our friends and support us even though that piece is not a part of our life.I like people who have chosen to be as positive as possible. Makes them
>
nice to hang out with. But, so what? I have all kinds of friends with
all kinds of beliefs. We're not talking about who to be friends with.
I put a fairly large amount of time and effort into helping people
better understand unschooling. Some people promote their own brand of
unschooling (unschooling libertarians, unschooling through Law of
Attraction, unschooling Christianity, etc) in the news media, to the
public, to people online, etc. and call it unschooling - as if their
personal belief system, philosophy, political agenda, or religion are
part and parcel OF unschooling, in general. I don't like it and I think
they should make it clear that they are not, in fact, talking just about
unschooling. I think they muddy the waters and that it is already
difficult enough to talk clearly about unschooling and they make it
harder when they don't distinguish between what they, themselves,
believe in versus what unschooling is.
> ===>The problem is that people come acrossThose are people who are misled into thinking unschooling has something
> radical-unschooling-law-of-attraction-style and think that is what
> radical unschooling is.<===
>
> Those are people who are only looking at the surface.
to do with metaphysics.
> There are also people, I'm sure who come to unschooling*because* of the Law of Attraction component. It could be a gateway.If someone wants to talk and write about how unschooling relates to
metaphysics or politics or anything else - I have no problem with that.
It is when they claim that what they are writing or speaking about IS
unschooling that I have a problem with it.
> I don't personally understand the connection (at all) but other people do. If it leads them to a more peaceful loving life with their children. That's great, from my perspective. What if one of your*kids* (I realize they are grown now) had a sudden interest in Law of Attraction? Would you honor that interest?Do you mean would I support it by helping them get more information and
>
have conversations about it, etc? Done.
> ===>If they aren't interested in accepting the LawI disagree. I have heard over and over and over from people whose kids
> of Attraction belief system, they can be turned off of unschooling.<===
>
> That's unfortunate but I would argue their interest wasn't that strong to begin with. And probably not open enough to*get* unschooling (at least the whole life unschooling) if they already have such a strong negative attachment to it.
>
were having serious problems at school and parents considered
homeschooling, but the only homeschoolers they came across identified
homeschooling as something for Christians. That kept people from
pursuing homeschooling, sometimes for years.
> ===> In case you think that's not likely, I've already had people tell me thatDifferent discussion. Unless you think that one turn-off justifies
> they would not unschool because it is associated with a bunch of
> new-agey stuff."<===
>
> Oh, I'm sure it's likely. I don't dispute you on that at all. I'm sure you've seen that before. I am sure some of those people just were not open to unschooling at all and maybe that was just an excuse used to avoid discussing it further?
>
> I will say that although I call myself new to unschooling. I first joined an unschooling over four years ago. I have been a reading member of this list since the summer of 2008? I have only in the last year and a half embrassed the term unschooling for our family...however well before that I would say we are "unschooly." We have been living without curriculum for over three years now and my kids are 15, 13& 12.
>
> One of the biggest turn-offs for new unschoolers that*I* have seen (you have way more experience with this but I do actually meet a lot of almost unschoolers or interested in unschooling through my activism here in NH)...anyway....the biggest turn-off I've seen and heard is about*unschooling dogma* or about judgments from other unschooling parents.
>
another. Two wrongs make a right?
> ===>I think the point may have been misunderstood. I doubt anybody hereHuh? Libertarians believe in certain things. So do unschoolers. I was
> objects to people choosing to believe in anything they choose to believe
> in, including the law of attraction, libertarianism, or anything else.<===
>
> The only thing I have to say here is...libertarian thought/philosophy (again I'm not talking about the Libertarian political party either) is just that it is*not* religion or a*belief system* it's a philosophy. It's not based on anything spiritual or supernatural or whatever. It's a philosophical perspective on governing people. Much like unschooling is a philosophical perspective on parenting.
>
not equating "belief" with anything supernatural or religious.
> ===>I think it is unethical for people to go around identifying unschoolingIt isn't honest. Honest would be to say, "I'm talking about combining
> with the law of attraction or with libertarianism or Christianity or any
> other particular belief system.00<===
>
> Unethical? Really...why? I am totally bewildered.
unschooling with this other belief system," and honest would be to take
care that I was clear about that.
> And to stay on topic how does that make you a better unschooling parent?How does what make who a better unschooling parent? Being more honest
rather than less?
> Is grouping it with mindfulness (and yes, I read the explanation on page 199 of Sandra's book), Attachment Parenting or La Leche League...unethical?If someone claimed to be talking about unschooling, but instead talked
>
about attachment parenting, then yes. Most people involved in attachment
parenting don't even homeschool, much less unschool. If they claimed
unschooling was the same as breastfeeding? Huh?
> I truly do not understand. I'm open to hearing though...and I hope that I have not come of angry, upset or otherwise...I am enjoying the discussion (although, I'm very concerned about being unintentionally hurtful - email can be a challenging medium in that way).I have my own personal political and religious beliefs. I have shared
>
>
almost none of that on any unschooling lists. It isn't relevant to those
who don't share them with me and I'm not here to persuade or argue
religion or politics. If I wanted to talk with other unschoolers about
how unschooling relates to my own particular religious or political
beliefs, I'd make it clear that that is what we were talking about and
they could choose to participate or not. I don't NEED people to share
my political or religious beliefs in order to talk with them about
unschooling, though. If I say I'm talking about unschooling, I don't
push my politics or my religion as if they are unschooling. I don't
claim that unschooling combined with my belief systems (political or
religious) is more advanced unschooling.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
Can't make out what the fuss is about. You have a set of beliefs you
associate with unschooling. Great.
They seem peripheral and irrelevant to me, but I have a 'core' of
appreciative inquiry and experiential learning. More labels, though they are
profound for me. Great.
Can we stay with the unschooling?
I don't see how either your or my 'garnish' of beliefs is required for
others to understand or worth debate and dissection to conclusion.
No offense meant, but your whole post seems 'extra-curricular'.
Vidyut
associate with unschooling. Great.
They seem peripheral and irrelevant to me, but I have a 'core' of
appreciative inquiry and experiential learning. More labels, though they are
profound for me. Great.
Can we stay with the unschooling?
I don't see how either your or my 'garnish' of beliefs is required for
others to understand or worth debate and dissection to conclusion.
No offense meant, but your whole post seems 'extra-curricular'.
Vidyut
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Kelly Halldorson <kelly@...>wrote:
>
>
> +++
> Note to moderators/owner: If this post is inappropriate please just hold it
> back. I will not be offended. I will not be upset. No biggie. I do hope it's
> not because I've tried hard to respond kindly, respectfully and keep it on
> topic. But again no biggie.
> +++
>
> ...
>
> Trying to understand,
> Kelly
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The only thing I have to say here is...libertarian thought/
philosophy (again I'm not talking about the Libertarian political
party either) is just that it is *not* religion or a *belief system*
it's a philosophy. It's not based on anything spiritual or
supernatural or whatever. It's a philosophical perspective on
governing people. Much like unschooling is a philosophical perspective
on parenting. -=-
A philosophy is a belief system, straight up.
-=-Unethical? Really...why? I am totally bewildered-=-
I don't doubt someone could be totally bewildered at something that
someone like Pam or I would see as problematical, and that's okay, but
I'm not sure it's as okay to say so strongly or repeatedly. There
are bewildering backstage bits. Not everyone needs to be backstage,
knowing the dirt and the problems, but those who are in the audience,
or who are performing onstage but have no idea how the curtains and
lights work should accept that their innocent bewilderment doesn't
equal "no problem."
-=-Is grouping it with mindfulness (and yes, I read the explanation on
page 199 of Sandra's book), Attachment Parenting or La Leche
League...unethical? -=-
This whole topic started about someone grouping John Taylor Gatto with
unschooling; equating them, or holding up a quote from him to shush an
unschooler. Then we went on to name other portals or gateways or
entrees, to say that none of them should be 'grouped with' or attached
to unschooling. They might be complementary, but they're neither
melded nor necessary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
philosophy (again I'm not talking about the Libertarian political
party either) is just that it is *not* religion or a *belief system*
it's a philosophy. It's not based on anything spiritual or
supernatural or whatever. It's a philosophical perspective on
governing people. Much like unschooling is a philosophical perspective
on parenting. -=-
A philosophy is a belief system, straight up.
-=-Unethical? Really...why? I am totally bewildered-=-
I don't doubt someone could be totally bewildered at something that
someone like Pam or I would see as problematical, and that's okay, but
I'm not sure it's as okay to say so strongly or repeatedly. There
are bewildering backstage bits. Not everyone needs to be backstage,
knowing the dirt and the problems, but those who are in the audience,
or who are performing onstage but have no idea how the curtains and
lights work should accept that their innocent bewilderment doesn't
equal "no problem."
-=-Is grouping it with mindfulness (and yes, I read the explanation on
page 199 of Sandra's book), Attachment Parenting or La Leche
League...unethical? -=-
This whole topic started about someone grouping John Taylor Gatto with
unschooling; equating them, or holding up a quote from him to shush an
unschooler. Then we went on to name other portals or gateways or
entrees, to say that none of them should be 'grouped with' or attached
to unschooling. They might be complementary, but they're neither
melded nor necessary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ohsoverymom
>>I put a fairly large amount of time and effort into helping people better understand unschooling. Some people promote their own brand of unschooling (unschooling libertarians, unschooling through Law of Attraction, unschooling Christianity, etc) in the news media, to the public, to people online, etc. and call it unschooling - as if their personal belief system, philosophy, political agenda, or religion are part and parcel OF unschooling, in general. I don't like it and I think they should make it clear that they are not, in fact, talking just about unschooling. I think they muddy the waters and that it is already difficult enough to talk clearly about unschooling and they make it harder when they don't distinguish between what they, themselves, believe in versus what unschooling is.
- quoted from Pam
>>Are there solidly defined terms individuals can use to distinguish themselves from the purist 'radical unschooling' definition? It seems to me that the people who marry unschooling with personal belief systems do so because those belief systems are so deeply a part of who they are, they find it extremely difficult to separate the two.
You see labels for different types of homeschoolers: Secular homeschoolers, Christian homeschoolers, Eclectic homeschoolers, Classical homeschoolers, etc. All of which give you a general idea of where they're coming from.
If you see someone who has entwined say, a firm belief in Zeus and daily worship rituals of him and his Mount Olympus pals with their unschooling lifestyle, and they called themselves Zeusite Unschoolers would that be a big enough distinction for you? Or do you still think it would be misleading? Because I think if I were unfamiliar with unschooling but read someone calling themselves a Zeusizte Unschooler I might google to see what other kinds of unschooling groups there were rather than just assume unschooling equaled praying to ancient Greek gods.
~ Jessica (who takes what she likes from many different homeschooling philosophies and rolls with whatever her kids are interested in)
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/13/2010 6:47 PM, ohsoverymom wrote:
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If you see someone who has entwined say, a firm belief in Zeus andThat would be great if people would be clear like that.
> daily worship rituals of him and his Mount Olympus pals with their
> unschooling lifestyle, and they called themselves Zeusite Unschoolers
> would that be a big enough distinction for you? Or do you still think
> it would be misleading? Because I think if I were unfamiliar with
> unschooling but read someone calling themselves a Zeusizte Unschooler
> I might google to see what other kinds of unschooling groups there
> were rather than just assume unschooling equaled praying to ancient
> Greek gods.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ohsoverymom
>>That would be great if people would be clear like that.
>>I take it they aren't always? Is there nowhere on any informational site that offers this option? Just some suggestions? Or links to like minded groups? I know many homeschoolers crave some kind of title, some label - just so they can explain, in a tidy, neat way what they are about.
~Jessica
Sandra Dodd
I got this not through facebook. I've removed a potentially
identifying phrase; otherwise it's whole as I received it, but now
anonymous.
-------------
I just was reading through the Always Learning archives and I wanted
to drop you a note to say your list is like a breath of fresh air to
me. I spend a lot of time talking to unschoolers, and a decent-sized
portion of them are caught up in moral panics and eco-panics and other
things they stress over more than they analyze. Thank you for keeping
the logic and the actual facts in unschooling, even if it irritates
some people. I'd be sad to see unschooling become only a fringe-y
hippie thing, and I personally would never have started going to
conferences or become friends with... [all the] awesome unschoolers I
know, if I hadn't found your site and list first. The panicky people
would've driven me away real fast. So thank you!
-------------
On a different forum this week someone has recommended that a mom
"needs to" have a vision of who she wants to become, and should cut
magazine pictures out of people she wants to be like, but replace
their head with a photo of her head.
I think that's bullshit. I think that would be setting a TERRIBLE
example for one's children. Should my kids be spending time trying to
make themselves actresses or rock stars or rich people by magazine-
collage-magic? My kids are all happy to be who they are, and that's
healthy. When I've been wishing I would be different, here is exactly
what I did: I changed the way I was making decisions, and then I was
different.
Action, not magic.
Attitude and understanding, not wishing and hoping.
From the quote above: "... things they stress over more than they
analyze"--
Not everyone is analytical, that's true. And no one unschools in a
vacuum without any other influences or beliefs, hobbies, religion or
politics. But stress is bad for unschooling. Fearful reactivity is
bad for unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
identifying phrase; otherwise it's whole as I received it, but now
anonymous.
-------------
I just was reading through the Always Learning archives and I wanted
to drop you a note to say your list is like a breath of fresh air to
me. I spend a lot of time talking to unschoolers, and a decent-sized
portion of them are caught up in moral panics and eco-panics and other
things they stress over more than they analyze. Thank you for keeping
the logic and the actual facts in unschooling, even if it irritates
some people. I'd be sad to see unschooling become only a fringe-y
hippie thing, and I personally would never have started going to
conferences or become friends with... [all the] awesome unschoolers I
know, if I hadn't found your site and list first. The panicky people
would've driven me away real fast. So thank you!
-------------
On a different forum this week someone has recommended that a mom
"needs to" have a vision of who she wants to become, and should cut
magazine pictures out of people she wants to be like, but replace
their head with a photo of her head.
I think that's bullshit. I think that would be setting a TERRIBLE
example for one's children. Should my kids be spending time trying to
make themselves actresses or rock stars or rich people by magazine-
collage-magic? My kids are all happy to be who they are, and that's
healthy. When I've been wishing I would be different, here is exactly
what I did: I changed the way I was making decisions, and then I was
different.
Action, not magic.
Attitude and understanding, not wishing and hoping.
From the quote above: "... things they stress over more than they
analyze"--
Not everyone is analytical, that's true. And no one unschools in a
vacuum without any other influences or beliefs, hobbies, religion or
politics. But stress is bad for unschooling. Fearful reactivity is
bad for unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Is there nowhere on any informational site that offers this
option?-=-
There is no central office for unschooling. There is no regulatory
body, or certification.
There is just each reader's capacity for recognizing integrity and
distinguishing good sources from bad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
option?-=-
There is no central office for unschooling. There is no regulatory
body, or certification.
There is just each reader's capacity for recognizing integrity and
distinguishing good sources from bad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ohsoverymom
>>Ha ha, that made me choke on my lunch. Well of course not.
> There is no central office for unschooling. There is no regulatory
> body, or certification.
> There is just each reader's capacity for recognizing integrity and
> distinguishing good sources from bad.
>>
It just seems like I see (and have received from time to time) emails or comments from people who say "You're doing it wrong" in regard to unschooling. Since it's such a hard to explain/describe lifestyle as is, perhaps it would simply help to define offshoots somewhere.
k
For me, it would be more interesting NOT to label ourselves beyond the word
unschooling or unschoolers. That way there aren't MORE divisions to think
about. I would imagine a group that says it's LoA Unschoolers or Christian
Unschoolers ... well that would me anyone in that group would prefer NOT to
associate with unschoolers who aren't Christians or who aren't practicing
LoA.
Nothing's wrong with that if we want to belong to sectioned off groups.
That's not unlike Christians who are so sectarian that they actually dislike
other types of Christians and won't associate with them.
Geez. Do we really need "denominations" or unschooling "sects?" Yuckers.
Let's don't.
~Katherine
unschooling or unschoolers. That way there aren't MORE divisions to think
about. I would imagine a group that says it's LoA Unschoolers or Christian
Unschoolers ... well that would me anyone in that group would prefer NOT to
associate with unschoolers who aren't Christians or who aren't practicing
LoA.
Nothing's wrong with that if we want to belong to sectioned off groups.
That's not unlike Christians who are so sectarian that they actually dislike
other types of Christians and won't associate with them.
Geez. Do we really need "denominations" or unschooling "sects?" Yuckers.
Let's don't.
~Katherine
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:47 PM, ohsoverymom <verymom@...> wrote:
> >>
> I put a fairly large amount of time and effort into helping people better
> understand unschooling. Some people promote their own brand of unschooling
> (unschooling libertarians, unschooling through Law of Attraction,
> unschooling Christianity, etc) in the news media, to the public, to people
> online, etc. and call it unschooling - as if their personal belief system,
> philosophy, political agenda, or religion are part and parcel OF
> unschooling, in general. I don't like it and I think they should make it
> clear that they are not, in fact, talking just about unschooling. I think
> they muddy the waters and that it is already difficult enough to talk
> clearly about unschooling and they make it harder when they don't
> distinguish between what they, themselves, believe in versus what
> unschooling is.
> - quoted from Pam
> >>
>
> Are there solidly defined terms individuals can use to distinguish
> themselves from the purist 'radical unschooling' definition? It seems to me
> that the people who marry unschooling with personal belief systems do so
> because those belief systems are so deeply a part of who they are, they find
> it extremely difficult to separate the two.
>
> You see labels for different types of homeschoolers: Secular
> homeschoolers, Christian homeschoolers, Eclectic homeschoolers, Classical
> homeschoolers, etc. All of which give you a general idea of where they're
> coming from.
>
> If you see someone who has entwined say, a firm belief in Zeus and daily
> worship rituals of him and his Mount Olympus pals with their unschooling
> lifestyle, and they called themselves Zeusite Unschoolers would that be a
> big enough distinction for you? Or do you still think it would be
> misleading? Because I think if I were unfamiliar with unschooling but read
> someone calling themselves a Zeusizte Unschooler I might google to see what
> other kinds of unschooling groups there were rather than just assume
> unschooling equaled praying to ancient Greek gods.
>
> ~ Jessica (who takes what she likes from many different homeschooling
> philosophies and rolls with whatever her kids are interested in)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Since it's such a hard to explain/describe lifestyle as is, perhaps
it would simply help to define offshoots somewhere-=-
I agree with Katherine that unschooling should be unschooling and
people are doing it or not, but here are some notes on differences
between unschooling and similarish things:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/unitstudies
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it would simply help to define offshoots somewhere-=-
I agree with Katherine that unschooling should be unschooling and
people are doing it or not, but here are some notes on differences
between unschooling and similarish things:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/unitstudies
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***From the quote above: "... things they stress over more than they
analyze"--
Not everyone is analytical, that's true. And no one unschools in a
vacuum without any other influences or beliefs, hobbies, religion or
politics. But stress is bad for unschooling. Fearful reactivity is
bad for unschooling.***
That's interesting! Something that's bothered me more and more over the last couple of years, in unschooling discussions, is this idea that some parents are just afraid to do something "wrong" to or for their kids.
It fascinates me that a mom or dad would panic at giving a child a suggestion thinking that it might be too coersive or too this or too that. That's so weird to me! My kids know exactly how I feel about things. I don't hesitate to say "no, bad idea.", but then leave the actual decision to my child. Generally, they listen to me and take my advice. Sometimes they have really good advice in return. I see that as a direct relation to how I've given my opinions and advice, that they can in turn do the same!
If one of my kids was deeply troubled by something and my advice was to help them make a collage of wishful thinking, they'd likely be really pissed with me. What they want is an ear and honesty, straight from my heart. In any conversation or at any time during any moment of any day, we can, each of us, wish for things and keep those wishes near and dear. When you can keep them near and dear, they are much more likely to come to fruition, and when they don't, it's still nice to think about.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
analyze"--
Not everyone is analytical, that's true. And no one unschools in a
vacuum without any other influences or beliefs, hobbies, religion or
politics. But stress is bad for unschooling. Fearful reactivity is
bad for unschooling.***
That's interesting! Something that's bothered me more and more over the last couple of years, in unschooling discussions, is this idea that some parents are just afraid to do something "wrong" to or for their kids.
It fascinates me that a mom or dad would panic at giving a child a suggestion thinking that it might be too coersive or too this or too that. That's so weird to me! My kids know exactly how I feel about things. I don't hesitate to say "no, bad idea.", but then leave the actual decision to my child. Generally, they listen to me and take my advice. Sometimes they have really good advice in return. I see that as a direct relation to how I've given my opinions and advice, that they can in turn do the same!
If one of my kids was deeply troubled by something and my advice was to help them make a collage of wishful thinking, they'd likely be really pissed with me. What they want is an ear and honesty, straight from my heart. In any conversation or at any time during any moment of any day, we can, each of us, wish for things and keep those wishes near and dear. When you can keep them near and dear, they are much more likely to come to fruition, and when they don't, it's still nice to think about.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/14/2010 11:41 AM, ohsoverymom wrote:
doing it wrong." People do take it that way, sometimes. I've only ever
seen suggestions of additional ideas that a person might want to
consider. I've occasionally seen someone say, "That's not unschooling."
That's because there are people who say, "We unschool, except I do make
the kids do math and I make sure they do some writing each day and blah
blah blah." Yeah, well, that really is NOT unschooling. Sometimes we
discuss whether people who have children who aren't school age yet
should or should not refer to themselves as unschoolers. No consensus on
that one - good points on both sides.
I know people who identify as Christian unschoolers, Baha'i unschoolers,
African-American unschoolers, Southern California unschoolers, and so on
- all perfectly happy to self-identify, and when they are talking
specifically about their own "brand" of unschooling, they are clear
about it. But there are just some people who don't have the sense or
courtesy or honesty or something - to do that. I don't know if it is
because they think "their" particular brand of unschooling is "the"
right one or they just don't care that it causes confusion and is
misleading or what.
-pam
> It just seems like I see (and have received from time to time) emailsI've never, in 15+ years, seen any email that actually said: "You're
> or comments from people who say "You're doing it wrong" in regard to
> unschooling. Since it's such a hard to explain/describe lifestyle as
> is, perhaps it would simply help to define offshoots somewhere.
doing it wrong." People do take it that way, sometimes. I've only ever
seen suggestions of additional ideas that a person might want to
consider. I've occasionally seen someone say, "That's not unschooling."
That's because there are people who say, "We unschool, except I do make
the kids do math and I make sure they do some writing each day and blah
blah blah." Yeah, well, that really is NOT unschooling. Sometimes we
discuss whether people who have children who aren't school age yet
should or should not refer to themselves as unschoolers. No consensus on
that one - good points on both sides.
I know people who identify as Christian unschoolers, Baha'i unschoolers,
African-American unschoolers, Southern California unschoolers, and so on
- all perfectly happy to self-identify, and when they are talking
specifically about their own "brand" of unschooling, they are clear
about it. But there are just some people who don't have the sense or
courtesy or honesty or something - to do that. I don't know if it is
because they think "their" particular brand of unschooling is "the"
right one or they just don't care that it causes confusion and is
misleading or what.
-pam
ohsoverymom
>>I've never, in 15+ years, seen any email that actually said: "You're
doing it wrong."
>>Probably because you aren't doing it wrong?
Why would you see an email from someone who had received one unless they shared it with you?
I've received one.
I stopped calling myself an unschooler after that. I'm not annoyed by it or offended or anything, I just didn't realize there were set guidelines one had to meet before qualifying to use the term.
I identify with and feel very strongly about much I've read about unschooling / radical unschooling. John Holt remains my favorite author.
Deb Lewis
***Why would you see an email from someone who had received one unless they shared it with you?***
Because she's been on different email lists for years, helping people understand unschooling.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Because she's been on different email lists for years, helping people understand unschooling.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]