Peaceful parenting two (or three or four) small kids
eveline_hofstede
In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary: situations in which different children have different plans, which are impossible to combine. Like: being at the zoo with one child that likes to see the animals and one child that likes to spend the whole day on the zoo playground. Or being at home with one child who wants to stay at home and one child who wants to go somewhere. (Kids to young to be without an adult)
My kids are one year and four years now, so these situations are still avoidable. We sometimes get in these when we make a date with other (homeschool) families, when we have a child visiting or when I work as a `guestparent' (`daycare in our house'). But it's only a matter of time: one day my youngest will have plans of his own. And of course he has his wishes already, for example he falls asleep the easiest and most peaceful in the backpack while I walk, so if he gets tired, for him it's best that we plan a trip to the playground at that moment, but his sister is not always prepared to leave just then...
I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about this.
Also wondering: what place do you give your own preferences as a parent?
(Hmmm, I realize now that my example of a date with a homeschooling family has to do with MY preference: MY preference to stay together as a group. Of course we have the option of splitting up if my daughter doesn't want to leave the playground with the others - which we did last time and nobody but me minded, I think.)
My main question is about siblings with not-matching plans. But feel free to shoot at the other things I wrote (I have been reading this list for a few months now and I know you WILL feel free ;)).
Thanks!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
My kids are one year and four years now, so these situations are still avoidable. We sometimes get in these when we make a date with other (homeschool) families, when we have a child visiting or when I work as a `guestparent' (`daycare in our house'). But it's only a matter of time: one day my youngest will have plans of his own. And of course he has his wishes already, for example he falls asleep the easiest and most peaceful in the backpack while I walk, so if he gets tired, for him it's best that we plan a trip to the playground at that moment, but his sister is not always prepared to leave just then...
I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about this.
Also wondering: what place do you give your own preferences as a parent?
(Hmmm, I realize now that my example of a date with a homeschooling family has to do with MY preference: MY preference to stay together as a group. Of course we have the option of splitting up if my daughter doesn't want to leave the playground with the others - which we did last time and nobody but me minded, I think.)
My main question is about siblings with not-matching plans. But feel free to shoot at the other things I wrote (I have been reading this list for a few months now and I know you WILL feel free ;)).
Thanks!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good
moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about
this.-=-
Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book, so don't ask in
Europe.
Take anything you read with a grain of salt. Most books assume school
will be a factor, and that parents will want to make and enforce rules.
-=-In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary:
situations in which different children have different plans, which are
impossible to combine.-=-
It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's
adversary and partner with the other.
I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than
adults. I know it's not always possible, but if you have another
adult, or a teen, or twelve year old, one child could be at the
playground with that child and the other seeing animals.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about
this.-=-
Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book, so don't ask in
Europe.
Take anything you read with a grain of salt. Most books assume school
will be a factor, and that parents will want to make and enforce rules.
-=-In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary:
situations in which different children have different plans, which are
impossible to combine.-=-
It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's
adversary and partner with the other.
I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than
adults. I know it's not always possible, but if you have another
adult, or a teen, or twelve year old, one child could be at the
playground with that child and the other seeing animals.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eveline_hofstede
`Siblings without rivalry'
Sandra wrote: "Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book."
Would it be okay to discuss the book on this list, or is that too off topic?
I can imagine that unschoolers would find gaps in the book, but I don't immediately remember things to be opposed to.
As I remember, it's about avoiding roles (eg the musical one in the family, which might deprive the others of the option to develop their musical talent, or the bully and the victim), about healing from your own childhood, about letting each child know and feel that he / she is special (instead of 'I love you all the same'), about avoiding comparisons, about not forcing your kids to become friends, but instead help them learn to live with each other and problem solve.
"(...) and that parents will want to make and enforce rules."
"It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's adversary and partner with the other."
In the situations I discribed, I see no other option than taking the lead and forcing this or that decision. I don't want to be in that role, and feel powerless not to know a different path.
"I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than adults."
It sure goes a lot smoother when there are more grown-ups than children! :) You're very right about that.
(Exept when the other adult has critical eyes (real ones or imagined ones) on my 'permissiveness'. I have a LOT to learn there... I liked your definition of a 'bad guy': 'anyone who wants to break up your team or bring your relationship into question'.)
But as you say: "I know it's not always possible..."
I could realy use some cues for the time I spend in minority of the amount of children.
Thanks again!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
Sandra wrote: "Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book."
Would it be okay to discuss the book on this list, or is that too off topic?
I can imagine that unschoolers would find gaps in the book, but I don't immediately remember things to be opposed to.
As I remember, it's about avoiding roles (eg the musical one in the family, which might deprive the others of the option to develop their musical talent, or the bully and the victim), about healing from your own childhood, about letting each child know and feel that he / she is special (instead of 'I love you all the same'), about avoiding comparisons, about not forcing your kids to become friends, but instead help them learn to live with each other and problem solve.
"(...) and that parents will want to make and enforce rules."
"It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's adversary and partner with the other."
In the situations I discribed, I see no other option than taking the lead and forcing this or that decision. I don't want to be in that role, and feel powerless not to know a different path.
"I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than adults."
It sure goes a lot smoother when there are more grown-ups than children! :) You're very right about that.
(Exept when the other adult has critical eyes (real ones or imagined ones) on my 'permissiveness'. I have a LOT to learn there... I liked your definition of a 'bad guy': 'anyone who wants to break up your team or bring your relationship into question'.)
But as you say: "I know it's not always possible..."
I could realy use some cues for the time I spend in minority of the amount of children.
Thanks again!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
eveline_hofstede
Hi all,
(I hope my English doesn't `sound' rude... I have no problem at all reading English, but writing is far more difficult for me!)
If some of you might find the time and energy to share some of your thoughts and experiences on this subject, I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!
Beneath I will copy my original posting, Sandra's reaction and my reaction to that, for those who didn't read it. Summary: siblings with not-matching plans / wishes, Mom seeing no other option than to decide this or that, forcing one of the kids (or both) to give in.
Two more examples and a new question:
Situations in which I feel my childs adversary: 1) Today at the playground it started to rain. My 1yo was obviously no longer happy to be outside; my 4yo was not done playing yet. I said something like: `I would like to go home. What would you like to do before we leave?' She named three things and I agreed. After these, she made new plans, but I said we were really leaving now. Result: two kids crying on the way back home, me being very frustrated. 2) My 1yo climbed on a chair and started to play with the cd's. I said: `Would you like to hear some music?' and helped him open one and showed him were to put it in. Then my 4yo said: `But I don't want music on! I cannot draw with music on.' She doesn't want to be in a room alone.
New question: I read a few times that you think a young child (even up to nine years old?) is not able to make a (long term) commitment. That would make it not very useful to end a playground session the way I did. What would be a good alternative?
Eveline
Original posting:
In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary: situations in which different children have different plans, which are impossible to combine. Like: being at the zoo with one child that likes to see the animals and one child that likes to spend the whole day on the zoo playground. Or being at home with one child who wants to stay at home and one child who wants to go somewhere. (Kids to young to be without an adult)
My kids are one year and four years now, so these situations are still avoidable. We sometimes get in these when we make a date with other (homeschool) families, when we have a child visiting or when I work as a `guestparent' (`daycare in our house'). But it's only a matter of time: one day my youngest will have plans of his own. And of course he has his wishes already, for example he falls asleep the easiest and most peaceful in the backpack while I walk, so if he gets tired, for him it's best that we plan a trip to the playground at that moment, but his sister is not always prepared to leave just then...
I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about this.
Also wondering: what place do you give your own preferences as a parent?
(Hmmm, I realize now that my example of a date with a homeschooling family has to do with MY preference: MY preference to stay together as a group. Of course we have the option of splitting up if my daughter doesn't want to leave the playground with the others - which we did last time and nobody but me minded, I think.)
My main question is about siblings with not-matching plans. But feel free to shoot at the other things I wrote (I have been reading this list for a few months now and I know you WILL feel free ;)).
Thanks!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
Sandra's reaction to the original posting:
-=-I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good
moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about
this.-=-
Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book, so don't ask in
Europe.
Take anything you read with a grain of salt. Most books assume school
will be a factor, and that parents will want to make and enforce rules.
-=-In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary:
situations in which different children have different plans, which are
impossible to combine.-=-
It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's
adversary and partner with the other.
I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than
adults. I know it's not always possible, but if you have another
adult, or a teen, or twelve year old, one child could be at the
playground with that child and the other seeing animals.
Sandra
Reaction to Sandra:
`Siblings without rivalry'
Sandra wrote: "Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book."
Would it be okay to discuss the book on this list, or is that too off topic?
I can imagine that unschoolers would find gaps in the book, but I don't immediately remember things to be opposed to.
As I remember, it's about avoiding roles (eg the musical one in the family, which might deprive the others of the option to develop their musical talent, or the bully and the victim), about healing from your own childhood, about letting each child know and feel that he / she is special (instead of 'I love you all the same'), about avoiding comparisons, about not forcing your kids to become friends, but instead help them learn to live with each other and problem solve.
"(...) and that parents will want to make and enforce rules."
"It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's adversary and partner with the other."
In the situations I described, I see no other option than taking the lead and forcing this or that decision. I don't want to be in that role, and feel powerless not to know a different path.
"I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than adults."
It sure goes a lot smoother when there are more grown-ups than children! :) You're very right about that. Except when the other adult has critical eyes (real ones or imagined ones) on my
'permissiveness'. I have a LOT to learn there... I liked your definition of a 'bad guy': 'anyone who wants to break up your team or bring your relationship into question'.)
But as you say: "I know it's not always possible..."
I could really use some cues for the time I spend in minority of the amount of children.
Thanks again!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
(I hope my English doesn't `sound' rude... I have no problem at all reading English, but writing is far more difficult for me!)
If some of you might find the time and energy to share some of your thoughts and experiences on this subject, I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!
Beneath I will copy my original posting, Sandra's reaction and my reaction to that, for those who didn't read it. Summary: siblings with not-matching plans / wishes, Mom seeing no other option than to decide this or that, forcing one of the kids (or both) to give in.
Two more examples and a new question:
Situations in which I feel my childs adversary: 1) Today at the playground it started to rain. My 1yo was obviously no longer happy to be outside; my 4yo was not done playing yet. I said something like: `I would like to go home. What would you like to do before we leave?' She named three things and I agreed. After these, she made new plans, but I said we were really leaving now. Result: two kids crying on the way back home, me being very frustrated. 2) My 1yo climbed on a chair and started to play with the cd's. I said: `Would you like to hear some music?' and helped him open one and showed him were to put it in. Then my 4yo said: `But I don't want music on! I cannot draw with music on.' She doesn't want to be in a room alone.
New question: I read a few times that you think a young child (even up to nine years old?) is not able to make a (long term) commitment. That would make it not very useful to end a playground session the way I did. What would be a good alternative?
Eveline
Original posting:
In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary: situations in which different children have different plans, which are impossible to combine. Like: being at the zoo with one child that likes to see the animals and one child that likes to spend the whole day on the zoo playground. Or being at home with one child who wants to stay at home and one child who wants to go somewhere. (Kids to young to be without an adult)
My kids are one year and four years now, so these situations are still avoidable. We sometimes get in these when we make a date with other (homeschool) families, when we have a child visiting or when I work as a `guestparent' (`daycare in our house'). But it's only a matter of time: one day my youngest will have plans of his own. And of course he has his wishes already, for example he falls asleep the easiest and most peaceful in the backpack while I walk, so if he gets tired, for him it's best that we plan a trip to the playground at that moment, but his sister is not always prepared to leave just then...
I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about this.
Also wondering: what place do you give your own preferences as a parent?
(Hmmm, I realize now that my example of a date with a homeschooling family has to do with MY preference: MY preference to stay together as a group. Of course we have the option of splitting up if my daughter doesn't want to leave the playground with the others - which we did last time and nobody but me minded, I think.)
My main question is about siblings with not-matching plans. But feel free to shoot at the other things I wrote (I have been reading this list for a few months now and I know you WILL feel free ;)).
Thanks!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
Sandra's reaction to the original posting:
-=-I read `Siblings without rivalry' and I guess this would be a good
moment to reread it! But I'm also very curious about your ideas about
this.-=-
Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book, so don't ask in
Europe.
Take anything you read with a grain of salt. Most books assume school
will be a factor, and that parents will want to make and enforce rules.
-=-In certain situations I often end up being my childs adversary:
situations in which different children have different plans, which are
impossible to combine.-=-
It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's
adversary and partner with the other.
I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than
adults. I know it's not always possible, but if you have another
adult, or a teen, or twelve year old, one child could be at the
playground with that child and the other seeing animals.
Sandra
Reaction to Sandra:
`Siblings without rivalry'
Sandra wrote: "Your French neighbors are quite opposed to that book."
Would it be okay to discuss the book on this list, or is that too off topic?
I can imagine that unschoolers would find gaps in the book, but I don't immediately remember things to be opposed to.
As I remember, it's about avoiding roles (eg the musical one in the family, which might deprive the others of the option to develop their musical talent, or the bully and the victim), about healing from your own childhood, about letting each child know and feel that he / she is special (instead of 'I love you all the same'), about avoiding comparisons, about not forcing your kids to become friends, but instead help them learn to live with each other and problem solve.
"(...) and that parents will want to make and enforce rules."
"It's not child-against-child, though. You don't have to be one's adversary and partner with the other."
In the situations I described, I see no other option than taking the lead and forcing this or that decision. I don't want to be in that role, and feel powerless not to know a different path.
"I tried not to be in situations where there were more children than adults."
It sure goes a lot smoother when there are more grown-ups than children! :) You're very right about that. Except when the other adult has critical eyes (real ones or imagined ones) on my
'permissiveness'. I have a LOT to learn there... I liked your definition of a 'bad guy': 'anyone who wants to break up your team or bring your relationship into question'.)
But as you say: "I know it's not always possible..."
I could really use some cues for the time I spend in minority of the amount of children.
Thanks again!
Eveline, The Netherlands :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Beneath I will copy my original posting, Sandra's reaction and my
reaction to that, for those who didn't read it. -=-
I figured others would respond too. (This would be a good time for
others to respond too!)
If anyone's good at searching archives, there might be previous
discussion. I find that I can't think of the right phrase to get what
I need lately in archives. My head is jumbled.
I used to find two or three ways kids could be amused in the same
situation, but from different angles. If Kirby was doing something
with older kids, maybe there was a ramp the younger Marty could run up
and down, or maybe there was a sandbox where Holly could sit and play
while Kirby and Marty ran with the other kids or played on slides.
If I had thought of something they could all do together, that limited
the world a great deal.
There are ideas for younger children here:
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
I think I've given this link twice in a week, so I guess I thought I
had offered it in this topic too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reaction to that, for those who didn't read it. -=-
I figured others would respond too. (This would be a good time for
others to respond too!)
If anyone's good at searching archives, there might be previous
discussion. I find that I can't think of the right phrase to get what
I need lately in archives. My head is jumbled.
I used to find two or three ways kids could be amused in the same
situation, but from different angles. If Kirby was doing something
with older kids, maybe there was a ramp the younger Marty could run up
and down, or maybe there was a sandbox where Holly could sit and play
while Kirby and Marty ran with the other kids or played on slides.
If I had thought of something they could all do together, that limited
the world a great deal.
There are ideas for younger children here:
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
I think I've given this link twice in a week, so I guess I thought I
had offered it in this topic too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 8, 2010, at 2:37 PM, eveline_hofstede wrote:
giving her permission to do 3 more things when you wanted something
else, she in a way won the right to ignore your want. So when your
want came up again after her 3 things, she felt she could do it again.
I think better would be to make it a statement. "It's going to rain.
We'll need to leave. Want to pick 3 more things before we go?" It will
help if she feels you're role is the orchestrator rather than a peer
that she can overpower. That sounds counter to what gets said here ;-)
But I think it connects with the recent thread on authority. Your role
is the person who makes everything run so their needs can fit into the
day and keep things grounded in reality.
If the feelings of being an adversary stem from transition problems,
there might be some help here:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/transitions.html
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I would like to go home. What would you like to do before we leave?'I don't know that a 4 yo can care about someone else's wants. By
> She named three things and I agreed. After these, she made new plans
giving her permission to do 3 more things when you wanted something
else, she in a way won the right to ignore your want. So when your
want came up again after her 3 things, she felt she could do it again.
I think better would be to make it a statement. "It's going to rain.
We'll need to leave. Want to pick 3 more things before we go?" It will
help if she feels you're role is the orchestrator rather than a peer
that she can overpower. That sounds counter to what gets said here ;-)
But I think it connects with the recent thread on authority. Your role
is the person who makes everything run so their needs can fit into the
day and keep things grounded in reality.
If the feelings of being an adversary stem from transition problems,
there might be some help here:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/transitions.html
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/8/2010 11:37 AM, eveline_hofstede wrote:
out of the rain and go home and make cocoa." Or something else enticing.
-pam
> . I said something like: `I would like to go home.Instead, always talk about what you're going to do. Say, "Hey, let's get
out of the rain and go home and make cocoa." Or something else enticing.
-pam
lalow66
my kids are 5,6,7,and 8. so we have this issue alot. my 7 year old especially, wants to leave the park for example first.
so perhaps at the park, some want to leave, one wants to stay. having your child pick a couple things to wrap it up and then include in the list something at home or elsewhere.. for example
tell me three more things you would like to do before we leave and one special thing you would like to do when we get home. or on the way home etc...
good humor and playfulness help alot too.
some examples from our house that have helped lately. my oldest son plays soccer, my younger two like to play at the playground near the soccer field, my seven year old hates to go and usually complains when he has to cause he likes legos and wants the option of being inside. So we bring a small popup tent. He can retreat into it. play with his legos or ds or read or snack. When he gets overwhelmed with his friends or siblings he has a place to retreat. Home away from home. It really helps and he actually plays more with the other kids at the playground when given that option.
It requires more planning but in the end everyone is happier.
so perhaps at the park, some want to leave, one wants to stay. having your child pick a couple things to wrap it up and then include in the list something at home or elsewhere.. for example
tell me three more things you would like to do before we leave and one special thing you would like to do when we get home. or on the way home etc...
good humor and playfulness help alot too.
some examples from our house that have helped lately. my oldest son plays soccer, my younger two like to play at the playground near the soccer field, my seven year old hates to go and usually complains when he has to cause he likes legos and wants the option of being inside. So we bring a small popup tent. He can retreat into it. play with his legos or ds or read or snack. When he gets overwhelmed with his friends or siblings he has a place to retreat. Home away from home. It really helps and he actually plays more with the other kids at the playground when given that option.
It requires more planning but in the end everyone is happier.