Karen

<<Some of the comments were okay, but to inflict all that on a child who
just
wants to watch a movie with his mom is horrible.>>

Well, yeah. I plan on using it as suggestions, and because I like knowing
some background about a movie. I especially liked the "Movies We Don't
Recommend" part, since there are several great ones there as well. How could
I support anyone who puts all three Mandy Patinkin movies they mention on
the not recommended list? :) After all, The Princess Bride is worth it for
the quotes alone.

Karen



_________________________________________________________
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KT

>
>
>I don't expect to be attending many of the workshops in Sacramento (yours
>for sure, others maybe when I see a schedule) --
>

We're more than likely dropping Mindfull and going to this one, too! :)
I'm on the mailing list and I've checked prices on flights. Do you
think I need to reserve my room right away?

It would be good to see you again, Pam. I hope you can do both days.

Tuck

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 5:57:44 AM, kbmatlock@... writes:

<< I especially liked the "Movies We Don't
Recommend" part, since there are several great ones there as well. How could
I support anyone who puts all three Mandy Patinkin movies they mention on
the not recommended list? :) After all, The Princess Bride is worth it for
the quotes alone. >>

They have disparaged The Princess Bride? That can't be right!

I missed the "movies we don't recommend" part--I wanted to see what cool
stuff they had to say about some I really love.

Oh well! <g> I'll brace myself to go back in there and look. Later today.
Maybe.

Sandra

[email protected]

Well, I plan to attend the SC conference and my main interest is in meeting
other unschoolers!!
The workshops that would interest me the most would be hands on
definitely...I like being asked to do strange things that make me think.
I especially love things that give me new ideas, or fun things to try.

I had heard about the TX conference and it had sounded really interesting. I
thought the name of it was Natural Child or something though? Maybe it's a
different one after all.
There is a wonderful Ren Fair over in the Houston area that runs April
through June Sandra. THAT would be worth the drive I think!!
Too bad about the conference.

Ren, not the Fair

Pam Hartley

I think it never hurts to reserve a room right away. :) This is a popular
conference!

Anyone for forming an AlwaysLearning Sunday Lunch group in Sacramento? ;)

Pam

----------
From: KT <Tuck@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 263
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2002, 6:36 AM


>
>
>I don't expect to be attending many of the workshops in Sacramento (yours
>for sure, others maybe when I see a schedule) --
>

We're more than likely dropping Mindfull and going to this one, too! :)
I'm on the mailing list and I've checked prices on flights. Do you
think I need to reserve my room right away?

It would be good to see you again, Pam. I hope you can do both days.

Tuck


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In a message dated 3/7/02 8:52:28 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< There is a wonderful Ren Fair over in the Houston area that runs April
through June Sandra. THAT would be worth the drive I think!! >>

I've been once to the Texas Renaissance Festival near Houston, and have
camped on that site twice for big SCA events.

Dallas to Houston is too far for driving, though.

For those of you in small states, just because New Mexico and Texas touch
doesn't mean we can zip over there for the weekend very easily. I could
drive four hours in any direction and still be in New Mexico (six or seven in
some directions). We drove from Albuquerque to Houston once in a bus with 25
people. Took 25 hours. We joked that if there'd been fewer people it
wouldn't have taken as long.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 9:22:24 AM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< Anyone for forming an AlwaysLearning Sunday Lunch group in Sacramento? ;)
>>

Well just don't leave the hotel because there's a panel discussion on
unschooling (I don't know which day yet).

Dan and I and another couple of parents not on this list have a spot to
discuss the benefits of video games. I need to get that organized soon. Not
today. Again, I don't know which day yet. So maybe, Pam, Saturday would be
better. But soon the schedule will be set.

I'm doing a workshop with Richard Prystowsky, too, but we haven't decided the
topic yet. Suggestions are welcome!

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 3/7/02 4:51 AM, Karen at kbmatlock@... wrote:

> I support anyone who puts all three Mandy Patinkin movies they mention on
> the not recommended list? :) After all, The Princess Bride is worth it for
> the quotes alone.

I guess I'm going to have to look at this site after all, just to see what
criteria they could possibly have for that.

"Princess" gave me my favorite come-back to my kids' whine, "It's not FAIR!"

Nancy

Jocelyn Vilter

on 03/07/02 6:36 AM, KT at Tuck@... wrote:

> We're more than likely dropping Mindfull and going to this one, too! :)
> I'm on the mailing list and I've checked prices on flights. Do you
> think I need to reserve my room right away?

YIPEE!!!

And yeah, get a room as soon as you know for sure you're coming, they DO
sell out.

Jocelyn
So what is the deal with the Mindfull conf? It sounded so cool.

Cristina Kenski

>Dan and I and another couple of parents not on this list have a spot to
>discuss the benefits of video games. I need to get that organized soon.

Sandra, would you have any interest in sharing ideas on this topic?

I've given it a fair amount of thought - perhaps too much to go on
about in the group. But, a tidbit...

I don't know if you've read "Flow : The Psychology of Optimal Experience"
by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, but it is an excellent analysis of how the mind
works under stress, and he puts forward the idea that the optimum mental
state is one where stress (i.e. demand on a particular faculty of the mind /
body)
is pretty precisely balanced with skill level and the capabilities of the
individual.
We usually call activities producing this state "games" by the way.

This optimum performance point is reached in sports (he uses tennis as a
good
example), chess, reading, even conversation. I can tell you that all of my
best work
as a programmer is done within flow (otherwise known as "the zone") where
there is not only a high degree of organized, productive, mental effort, but
also
a timeless and largely ego-less experience of "fun" (for want of a better
term).
A day of work can be totally refreshing, if I can overcome the institutional
obstacles to getting into, and staying in, Flow.

This applies to video games, to my point of view, because video games are
one
of the only places that my son can _reliably_ enter the flow state and
remain there
for lengthy periods of time. My dw used to think it was frightening that
our son, even
when he was four would "zone out" with a game for several hours at a time,
not
eating, not drinking, not speaking. But I recognized it as "zoning in" -
hitting
that place of experience where you are optimally performing and using (while
improving) your skills. At times this is (I don't want to get melodramatic)
blissful.

So, in our culture, I think we reflexively wonder, since it's very pleasant
(and we can do it
without consuming something - eek!) must it not be "habit-forming" and
therefore
bad? This, assuming we can not ALL agree on the benefits as we might with a
running
habit or workout habit, or painting habit, or gardening or music composition
habit.

Well, I think that the experience of flow itself is good for the brain, good
for the
child. It uses the brain the way it is designed to operate optimally - or
at least
one of it's optimal modes. What seems to get lost is the idea that video
games are
"games" first. High tech, but still games. For "fun" - fun comes at all
different
intensity levels, and perhaps the most intense is flow. The thing about
flow is that
it is personal. Two tennis players are not playing "together" if they are
in flow.
Neither are two chess players. They are in their own solitary worlds.
Basketball players
and other team players have a different kind of optimal level - they always
have to keep
some attention available to monitor environmental conditions, signals, and
so on. For
some reason this lower intensity level is less disturbing to onlookers.

But video games are solitary and we see the flow for what it is - total
absorption
in a solitary productive/recreational activity.

Institutions can't exercise good control over people in a flow state and so
they break
it up, by changing the demands, creating distractions, adding elements of
boredom
that break up the focus. I think schools do this and I think workplaces
often do
this. In my industry, we can get around it much of the time. But you still
have phones,
meetings, etc.

Anywho - games (especially video games) train one's mind to enter the flow
state
and maintain it. This is why my son can kick my butt at every game, without
exception,
that we have every played together, including challenging ones like Jedi
Power Battles
and Ace Combat 04. He has already learned to enter and maintain a flow
state, which
is optimal for learning as well as performance, better than I have with
about 35 years of
practice.

Why are games good for kids? I think that is the essence of why video games
are NOT
bad. Well, some are bad, but some are clearly good - great in fact. The
same can be
said for anything. Books, movies, even people.

Video games are so solitary, and that is scary for people who, like me, grew
up immersed
in crowds of (mostly) strangers. There's no authority figures to tell you
whether you're
right or wrong - there's only the rules of the game and the score. But
being comfortable
with solitude, is just being comfortable with reality. We can connect, we
can relate, but
at the end of the day you are who you are and that is just one person. I
don't think
giving a child the choice of solitary pursuits is such a bad thing. If they
play non-stop
for 30 days, it's getting out of hand. If they are wasting away to bones
and flesh while
achieving Yoda-like levels in one game, ok, it's too much. But my
observations have shown
that these games have a natural life-cycle. My 7yo can complete a "typical"
game in a
weekend, with lots of time for other activities mixed in when he loses the
ability to
sustain flow.

I think learning to recognize and sustain flow is learning to operate your
mind in one of
it's primary optimal states. Openness, such as meditation is another
optimal state, very
different from flow - perhaps it's diametric opposite...

Flow completely transcends all boundaries of the game, games in general, and
this state,
when cultivated as a personal capability can be one of the most powerful
capabilities
one can develop. As an adult, I use it every day - from programming, to
composition
to polishing the car.

So much for the flow tidbit. Just putting out a feeler to see if this is
something, you, Sandra,
or any others want to discuss in more detail offline, or slowly here. Any
interest?

Mark Kenski
(sneaking in with Cris's ID - I haven't gotten mine set up yet)

Jocelyn Vilter

on 03/07/02 9:28 AM, Jocelyn Vilter at JVilter@... wrote:

> on 03/07/02 6:36 AM, KT at Tuck@... wrote:
>
>> We're more than likely dropping Mindfull and going to this one, too! :)
>> I'm on the mailing list and I've checked prices on flights. Do you
>> think I need to reserve my room right away?
>
> YIPEE!!!
>
> And yeah, get a room as soon as you know for sure you're coming, they DO
> sell out.
>
> Jocelyn
> So what is the deal with the Mindfull conf? It sounded so cool.

So sorry - I meant this to be a private response to Karen. Stuff I'd ask
one person, in private and not shout out to the whole party.

Jocelyn

Cindy

Pam Hartley wrote:
>
> I think it never hurts to reserve a room right away. :) This is a popular
> conference!
>
> Anyone for forming an AlwaysLearning Sunday Lunch group in Sacramento? ;)
>

I will be there too, and I usually go for the whole weekend. A lunch
would be great one of the days - I usually go to the Sudwerks which
is not too far away for one of my lunches. They have better food
than the Radisson does!

As to what type of workshop I like - I like ones where I come away
re-evaluating my beliefs and practices - I may not change anything but
at least I seriously question why I do or believe what I do!
I loved the talk Sandra and Richard did about questioning last year.
Marty Layne did a neat one entitled "Life is a Song and Dance" (using
the arts in homeschooling). She had us singing some children's songs
and giving one another backrubs!

I've wanted to attend the Long Beach conference but it always seems
to be scheduled too near my daughter's birthday! (Her birthday is
April 7).

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 10:41:39 AM, ckenski@... writes:

<< But I recognized it as "zoning in" -
hitting
that place of experience where you are optimally performing and using (while
improving) your skills. >>

That's a great way to put it.

Because I know my kids so well and I have seen what they've learned and how
they've just kind of taken it in through osmosis, and humor, and goofing
around with ideas and places and people, I have not the least touch of fear
about video games.

And for my kids, it's been great for reading, too--reading within the games,
and about them.

Sandra

Jocelyn Vilter

on 03/07/02 8:21 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> just because New Mexico and Texas touch
> doesn't mean we can zip over there for the weekend very easily.

"The sun is riz, the sun is set, and we ain't out of Texas yet."

Jocelyn
BTDT many, many times.

Sharon Rudd

Subject: Heroines Essay Contest for Youth

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[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 11:51:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, JVilter@...
writes:

<<
> And yeah, get a room as soon as you know for sure you're coming, they DO
> sell out. >>

You might want to hold out until registration and reservation information
becomes
available. Rooms are offered to conference attendees at a discount rate and
that info is not yet on the HSC conference web site.
Kathy

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Because I know my kids so well and I have seen what they've learned and how
>they've just kind of taken it in through osmosis, and humor, and goofing
>around with ideas and places and people, I have not the least touch of fear
>about video games.
>
>And for my kids, it's been great for reading, too--reading within the games,
>and about them.

Got any recommendations? Lars has Nintendo 64 but doesn't much like the
game that came with it. (Star wars racer or something) and doesn't very
often bother renting any. Now if there was a mountain biking one . . . .
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

homeschoolmd

I have observed that my children do not need to read directions to
play video games. They just sit down and figure the things out.

Unfortunately, I have also observed that my children have trouble
when they need to read directions to learn something. I don't know
if this would be true for most 10 and 12 year olds or if this is a
present "video game" generation problem. Anyone else have any
thoughts on this matter?

Pat

zenmomma *

>>Unfortunately, I have also observed that my children have trouble
when they need to read directions to learn something. I don't know
if this would be true for most 10 and 12 year olds or if this is a
present "video game" generation problem. Anyone else have any
thoughts on this matter?>>

I think this is more of a learning style thing. Some people don't like
figuring new things out from the directions, which are presented in a linear
fashion. That's not how they learn best. Lots of people, my son and dh
included, just sit down and figure things out.

~Mary
>

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[email protected]

30 years ago, my dad would overhear us kids arguing about the rules of a
board game and he would say, "Why don't you read the rules?"

Mary Ellen

snip>>>>I don't know if this would be true for most 10 and 12 year olds
or if this is a present "video game" generation problem.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan Vilter

on 3/7/02 8:27 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I'm doing a workshop with Richard Prystowsky, too, but we haven't decided the
> topic yet. Suggestions are welcome!

The first time I heard you talk in person was at the Bay Shore conference
years ago it was one of those watershed moments, and thank you again for
that. It was also the first time I heard Richard speak (in a separate
session.) I liked a lot of what he had to say up until he used the words
"you've got to kill the TV" I couldn't believe someone was actually saying
that at an education conference. In my mind It was like he was telling
people to light the bonfire and start tossing the books.

I don't know if his position has changed over the years, but my suggestion
is that you both talk about TV <G>

-Dan Vilter

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I think this is more of a learning style thing. Some people don't like
>figuring new things out from the directions, which are presented in a linear
>fashion. That's not how they learn best. Lots of people, my son and dh
>included, just sit down and figure things out.

I agree. My son and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that. He
won't even look at the directions and usually has the basics figured out
before me. That's what happened with our new digital camera. But I
struggle with the directions and usually figure out stuff he hasn't even
thought to try. When we combine our strengths instead of fighting them, we
end up way ahead.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 7:27:19 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< Got any recommendations? Lars has Nintendo 64 but doesn't much like the
game that came with it. (Star wars racer or something) and doesn't very
often bother renting any. Now if there was a mountain biking one . . . . >>

My kids love any Link and Zelda game, they played the heck out of Banjo
Kazooie, and they like Harvest Moon, but I don't think they have it for the
64. The Harvest Moon that got the most play was Super Nintendo, but now
they're all over the PS 2 version. (Gameboy Harvest Moon gets passed around
a lot, and they've all played it.)

If he has extra controllers and friends over, Mario Kart 64 seems to be the
group favorite.



Most of our games have been bought used, but the kids will save allowance to
buy new games, too.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/7/02 10:25:26 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I don't know
if this would be true for most 10 and 12 year olds or if this is a
present "video game" generation problem. Anyone else have any
thoughts on this matter? >>

I thin it's probably neither of your two choices. (Why do people narrow
their thinking down to either-or so quickly?)

We have a computer game by the learning company called Treasure Mountain.
You catch elves, answer math questions, get clues and then get tokens hidden
under the right objects. The objects you choose have to have two out of
three of the aspects of the key object (which you determine by earning clues
you get by buying nets, catching elves, and answering questions). So if the
"right" answer is three round trees, you also benefit by clicking on three
triangular trees, or two round trees, etc. It's a cool reasoning exercise.

For Marty, when he was little, he played it a whole different way. He
clicked on every object or set of objects. If he got a token, he had a clue.
He clicked until he knew where the key was. He totally ignored the elves.
But clicking costs a coin. Where'd he get the coins? He discovered what the
rest of us never needed to know. If you were totally broke, the game would
leave you money on the ground. So Marty was using the welfare money and
making it entirely a deductive reasoning game.

I don't think Marty learned less than Kirby and Holly did.

Marty is also more likely to put things together without the directions--just
throw all the parts and bolts out there and see the thing. This is a good
skill.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/8/02 10:16:51 AM, dvilter@... writes:

<<
I don't know if his position has changed over the years, but my suggestion
is that you both talk about TV <G> >>

Celebrity wrestling? But I'd whoop him too soon, and we're supposed to speak
for an hour and fifteen minutes.

What we have most in common is our big interest in Buddhism and our belief
that if you live mindfully things unfold calmly and without you even trying.
Only I do the frenetic ADD junkfood way, and he does the quiet vegetarian
way. Same results, different environments. That's why he thought we should
speak together.

I liked the thing we did in Portland, but it was not structured. It was
questions we'd both answer, and then discuss back and forth. Maybe that,
with TV as one of the questions (so after five minutes we could go to other
things! <g>). But I don't want to be confrontational with him either.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>Marty is also more likely to put things together without the
>>directions--just throw all the parts and bolts out there and see the
>>thing. This is a good skill.>>

Conor is like this too. Always has been. He has this ability to see the
"whole" in his mind and then put the pieces together to form the "whole" in
real life. He could always easily manipulate Transformers and things whose
directions would make my head spin.

Jon's like this too. He says this is why he can look at a piece of coding at
work and tell right away if there's going to be a problem. He'll still run
through it to see exactly where the problem is, but he usually has a very
good idea of where to look going in.

~Mary

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zenmomma *

>>When we combine our strengths instead of fighting them, we end up way
>>ahead.>>

I like this. It could be said of most situations.

~Mary

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[email protected]

In a message dated 3/8/02 12:49:00 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< He could always easily manipulate Transformers and things whose
directions would make my head spin.
>>

Transformers have directions!?
Marty's the only one here who does them, and so I didn't know that! <g>

Marty is the most like his dad who is a code-checking engineer too.
And Kirby is most like me, and he's Mr. Social Organization.

Yesterday Keith was making a wrap-front cloth thing to go over his armor.
Kind of a cross between a gi jacket and a medieval surcoat. And some edges
will have another color of facing (to the outside--a bordure) but there are
sleeve openings and skirt-slits which won't be faced that way, and so I was
suggesting twill tape facings, or turned hems and reinforcing patches at the
tops of the slits, and that was all AFTER the discussion of the neck cuts and
the direction of the material.

My husband can sew, and I can sew, and he's more engineerly in general, but
when it comes to cloth he likes my ideas but I have a harder time explaining
it than doing it. But he wants to do it himself.

When he made a folding case for a six-part pop-apart bench he made which he
wanted a bag for, but really wanted one envelope for each part on a long
roll-up-and-tie "envelope," that was a LOT of cloth engineering.

Sandra

Mark Kenski

On Friday, March 08, 2002 1:20 PM,
zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Wrote:

>Conor is like this too. Always has been. He has this ability to see the
>"whole" in his mind and then put the pieces together to form the "whole" in
>real life. He could always easily manipulate Transformers and things whose
>directions would make my head spin.

>Jon's like this too. He says this is why he can look at a piece of coding
at
>work and tell right away if there's going to be a problem. He'll still run
>through it to see exactly where the problem is, but he usually has a very
>good idea of where to look going in.

In so many areas of life, there are no "directions." At least none handy.
And for many tasks or problems, there are many solutions. Intuiting the
many solutions and choosing the most efficient, fun, or aesthetically
appealing makes "problems" a source of constant joy.

If you naturally tend toward this mode of being, it feels unnatural to
follow directions. Most problems (maybe all - haven't seen 'em all yet)
contain their solutions - you just need to look at them right. This, btw,
is most assuredly not something I learned in school. It's something school
didn't quite beat out of me.

The mental mode where one looks at a problem and visualizes / imagines /
invents a solution is very different than the skill of reproducing a set of
steps in sequence as told to you - i.e. "The" solution, the answer.

Moving out of this preferred and strongest mode is not fun. It's work, come
to think of it. And I'm not a big fan of work. It's to be avoided if one
has a choice.

Now, if I have to do something really important (well I have a specialist do
it and pay them with money I make doing what I'm good at, but if I am stuck
somewhere or something...) then I will seek "The Solution" and follow the
directions. And I probably won't like it. But, I acknowledge both modes are
conducive to survival and success.

Yes, I (a non-direction follower) can, if I'm painted into a corner, do many
things in ways that are not at the core of my nature. I can adapt to the
task and adopt a new mode. I try to show my son (who is prone to a mode of
seeing like my own [only his is wild and free in a way mine never was]) by
example, that there are times when you just have to let someone else tell or
show you how to do something.

Sometimes the discomfort of operating in a mode you are not accustomed to is
a growth process. The important thing to grasp is that you have a situation
that calls for a mode-switch as soon as possible, once you're there.
Closing in on 40 and I am still working on this one...

(Skydiving - that's one I won't be figuring out on my own.)

Following the directions takes patience and discipline, two things I am a
little short of. But that doesn't mean I can't see and admire the beautiful
efficiency, the pure elegance, of doing something without the effort of
trial and error. I love watching someone do something like put together
hardware that requires detailed instruction-following. Just like I love
watching people do lots of things I am not so good at doing. I like reading
short e-mails too ;)

Just my .75c
Mark

zenmomma *

>>Transformers have directions!?
>Marty's the only one here who does them, and so I didn't know that! <g>>>

LOL! Yes, they really do. But I think the only directions we ever looked at
were for Conor's first ever Transformer. He was 4, I think. After I
struggled with it for about 10 minutes, he politely took it from me and
transformed it easily. I never tried to explain anything like that again.
:-)

The more I hear about Marty (which was my beloved brother's name BTW), the
more I like him and think he and Conor would get along.

~Mary

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