"instant jobs"
Sandra Dodd
I'm going to come back to this topic to tell a story about what Kirby
did Thursday through Saturday, but I'll start it with this:
These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I suppose
the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
of these comments are very new.
i2Dog I just want to say to people look at the current job markets. If
you want to make more that $11.00 dollars a hour then collage is a
must. Even secretaries, hair stylist, cooks/cheifs ,musicians, have
some collage education or university education. But if you want an
instant job that pays good money then going to collage or university
and learning nursing or something related is the best.
=================================
•
HomieFilms @GreenFi5h
stop trying to defend this dumb bitch. Sure college does not guarantee
success but sitting at home doing nothing sure doesn't help you get
a good job you dumb fuck.
she is going to be crippled her whole life because she missed 13 years
of school and catching up with all those things is going to be hard. 17
----------
3 days ago
•
pwnuloser3200 @HomieFilms you are so right!!!! good shit dude!! I
know I love school because it's going to be worth it :P
=================================
These are the people who are pretty sure they're going to get "an
instant job that pays good
money."?
I hope school does turn out to be "worth it" for pwnuloser. I'm glad
he loves school.
Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
responding on YouTube. Oh well...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
did Thursday through Saturday, but I'll start it with this:
These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I suppose
the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
of these comments are very new.
i2Dog I just want to say to people look at the current job markets. If
you want to make more that $11.00 dollars a hour then collage is a
must. Even secretaries, hair stylist, cooks/cheifs ,musicians, have
some collage education or university education. But if you want an
instant job that pays good money then going to collage or university
and learning nursing or something related is the best.
=================================
•
HomieFilms @GreenFi5h
stop trying to defend this dumb bitch. Sure college does not guarantee
success but sitting at home doing nothing sure doesn't help you get
a good job you dumb fuck.
she is going to be crippled her whole life because she missed 13 years
of school and catching up with all those things is going to be hard. 17
----------
3 days ago
•
pwnuloser3200 @HomieFilms you are so right!!!! good shit dude!! I
know I love school because it's going to be worth it :P
=================================
These are the people who are pretty sure they're going to get "an
instant job that pays good
money."?
I hope school does turn out to be "worth it" for pwnuloser. I'm glad
he loves school.
Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
responding on YouTube. Oh well...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***These are the people who are pretty sure they're going to get "an
instant job that pays good
money."?
I hope school does turn out to be "worth it" for pwnuloser. I'm glad
he loves school.***
In my opinion, that is THE biggest lie that schools tell children to keep them there. Parents fall right into it because they don't want their children to grow up unable to support themselves.
My husband was a kid that liked school and did decently well. He tried college and ended up failing too many classes trying to work full time and do school full time. He never finished. What he does for a living now, he learned himself. Someone offered him a job the other day through word of mouth. I don't know if he'll accept it yet, it depends on the details. He doesn't have lofty aspirations to be a CEO of a fortune 500 company. He's an artist mostly, so work is earning a living for his family, it's peripheral to what he loves to do. What he loves to do is hang out with his family, play music, and create things.
No amount of schooling or college could help him do what he loves to do. At one point he was in a band that was doing really well, getting a lot of reviews, had money, and then one member decided to steal all of that money and skip town. The means to do what one loves as a way to support oneself financially is partially luck, partially just doing it, and partially talent. I don't see anywhere in that, how the lack of school would factor in, unless what you want requires it, and that would be college level things and falls under the "just doing it". I'm confident that unschoolers who choose that, do well.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
instant job that pays good
money."?
I hope school does turn out to be "worth it" for pwnuloser. I'm glad
he loves school.***
In my opinion, that is THE biggest lie that schools tell children to keep them there. Parents fall right into it because they don't want their children to grow up unable to support themselves.
My husband was a kid that liked school and did decently well. He tried college and ended up failing too many classes trying to work full time and do school full time. He never finished. What he does for a living now, he learned himself. Someone offered him a job the other day through word of mouth. I don't know if he'll accept it yet, it depends on the details. He doesn't have lofty aspirations to be a CEO of a fortune 500 company. He's an artist mostly, so work is earning a living for his family, it's peripheral to what he loves to do. What he loves to do is hang out with his family, play music, and create things.
No amount of schooling or college could help him do what he loves to do. At one point he was in a band that was doing really well, getting a lot of reviews, had money, and then one member decided to steal all of that money and skip town. The means to do what one loves as a way to support oneself financially is partially luck, partially just doing it, and partially talent. I don't see anywhere in that, how the lack of school would factor in, unless what you want requires it, and that would be college level things and falls under the "just doing it". I'm confident that unschoolers who choose that, do well.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seccotine_ch
--- Sandra Dodd wrote:
I used to work as a writer for a news portal on the Internet, and at some time, I stopped reading comments. I had the feeling that people were commenting only to dump (is this a verb in English ?) their frustration and their unhappiness, and to blame somebody - anybody - about it. YouTube is full of such comments, for what I have seen.
My English isn't good enough to put it well, but I have the feeling that, somehow, on some level, kids know/feel/guess that what they are told about school isn't completely right. This whole propaganda. You can buy it or not, but there is a part of you, even a tiny one, who feels that something isn't right. So when somebody comes, who never had to play this foolish game, who is happy and successful, this person is too often welcomed by anger, and resentment, even hatred.
I wonder if you've heard (probably) of this great little book : "The adventures of Johnny Bunko", from Daniel Pink.
http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Johnny-Bunko-Career-Guide/dp/1594482918/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272228376&sr=8-1
It is a career guide written in the manga format - and basically, it says that what teachers, counselors, etc. told you to do in order to find a great job doesn't work.
For instance, the first "lesson" says :
"There is no plan. You can't map it all out. You might think that X will lead to Y , and Y will lead to Z, but it never works that way. Life isn't an algebra problem. Well, actually, it's like an algebra problem, painted by Salvador Dali. X might lead to W and W might lead to the color blue. And the color blue might lead to a chicken quesadilla. It's nice to believe that you can map out every step ahead of time and end up where you want. But that's a fantasy. The world changes. Ten years from now, your job might be in India. Your industry might not even exist. And you'll change, too. You might discover a hidden talent. You might fall in love and move to Tahiti. So you need to make smart choices. But you can make career decisions for two different types of reasons. You can do something for instrumental reasons - because you think it's going to lead to something else, regardless of whether you enjoy it or it's worthwile ... or you can do something for fundamental reasons - because you think it's inherently valuable, regardless of what it may or may not lead to. The dirty little secret is that instrumental reasons usually don't work. Things are too complicated, too unpredictable. The most successful people - not all of the time, but most of the time - make decisions for fundamental reasons."
How unschoolish does that sound ?
I really liked it. And I think that Daniel Pink has it quite right.
Helen, from Geneva (Switzerland)
> These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I supposeThese comments are horrible. It's a shame. If I were a advocate of schooling, I wouldn't be very proud of the results of my education ...
> the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
> of these comments are very new.
>
I used to work as a writer for a news portal on the Internet, and at some time, I stopped reading comments. I had the feeling that people were commenting only to dump (is this a verb in English ?) their frustration and their unhappiness, and to blame somebody - anybody - about it. YouTube is full of such comments, for what I have seen.
My English isn't good enough to put it well, but I have the feeling that, somehow, on some level, kids know/feel/guess that what they are told about school isn't completely right. This whole propaganda. You can buy it or not, but there is a part of you, even a tiny one, who feels that something isn't right. So when somebody comes, who never had to play this foolish game, who is happy and successful, this person is too often welcomed by anger, and resentment, even hatred.
I wonder if you've heard (probably) of this great little book : "The adventures of Johnny Bunko", from Daniel Pink.
http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Johnny-Bunko-Career-Guide/dp/1594482918/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272228376&sr=8-1
It is a career guide written in the manga format - and basically, it says that what teachers, counselors, etc. told you to do in order to find a great job doesn't work.
For instance, the first "lesson" says :
"There is no plan. You can't map it all out. You might think that X will lead to Y , and Y will lead to Z, but it never works that way. Life isn't an algebra problem. Well, actually, it's like an algebra problem, painted by Salvador Dali. X might lead to W and W might lead to the color blue. And the color blue might lead to a chicken quesadilla. It's nice to believe that you can map out every step ahead of time and end up where you want. But that's a fantasy. The world changes. Ten years from now, your job might be in India. Your industry might not even exist. And you'll change, too. You might discover a hidden talent. You might fall in love and move to Tahiti. So you need to make smart choices. But you can make career decisions for two different types of reasons. You can do something for instrumental reasons - because you think it's going to lead to something else, regardless of whether you enjoy it or it's worthwile ... or you can do something for fundamental reasons - because you think it's inherently valuable, regardless of what it may or may not lead to. The dirty little secret is that instrumental reasons usually don't work. Things are too complicated, too unpredictable. The most successful people - not all of the time, but most of the time - make decisions for fundamental reasons."
How unschoolish does that sound ?
I really liked it. And I think that Daniel Pink has it quite right.
Helen, from Geneva (Switzerland)
Sandra Dodd
-=-For instance, the first "lesson" says :
"There is no plan. You can't map it all out. You might think that X
will lead to Y , and Y will lead to Z, but it never works that way.
Life isn't an algebra problem. Well, actually, it's like an algebra
problem, painted by Salvador Dali. X might lead to W and W might lead
to the color blue. And the color blue might lead to a chicken
quesadilla. It's nice to believe that you can map out every step ahead
of time and end up where you want. But that's a fantasy. The world
changes. Ten years from now, your job might be in India. Your industry
might not even exist. And you'll change, too. You might discover a
hidden talent. You might fall in love and move to Tahiti. So you need
to make smart choices. But you can make career decisions for two
different types of reasons. You can do something for instrumental
reasons - because you think it's going to lead to something else,
regardless of whether you enjoy it or it's worthwile ... or you can do
something for fundamental reasons - because you think it's inherently
valuable, regardless of what it may or may not lead to. The dirty
little secret is that instrumental reasons usually don't work. Things
are too complicated, too unpredictable. The most successful people -
not all of the time, but most of the time - make decisions for
fundamental reasons."
How unschoolish does that sound ? -=-
This is cool. Daniel Pink linked my webpage in one of his books, but
he put SandraTodd instead of Dodd. Bummer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"There is no plan. You can't map it all out. You might think that X
will lead to Y , and Y will lead to Z, but it never works that way.
Life isn't an algebra problem. Well, actually, it's like an algebra
problem, painted by Salvador Dali. X might lead to W and W might lead
to the color blue. And the color blue might lead to a chicken
quesadilla. It's nice to believe that you can map out every step ahead
of time and end up where you want. But that's a fantasy. The world
changes. Ten years from now, your job might be in India. Your industry
might not even exist. And you'll change, too. You might discover a
hidden talent. You might fall in love and move to Tahiti. So you need
to make smart choices. But you can make career decisions for two
different types of reasons. You can do something for instrumental
reasons - because you think it's going to lead to something else,
regardless of whether you enjoy it or it's worthwile ... or you can do
something for fundamental reasons - because you think it's inherently
valuable, regardless of what it may or may not lead to. The dirty
little secret is that instrumental reasons usually don't work. Things
are too complicated, too unpredictable. The most successful people -
not all of the time, but most of the time - make decisions for
fundamental reasons."
How unschoolish does that sound ? -=-
This is cool. Daniel Pink linked my webpage in one of his books, but
he put SandraTodd instead of Dodd. Bummer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Kirby took a day or two of his paid vacation time (I should've asked
him before he went to work; it might have been two days) and his
weekend to work a temporary job.
A female friend of his (sister or friend of a co-worker, someone he
met socially through co-workers) asked him if he would like to help
her as a stage hand at a small festival. Sure, he said. It would be
his weekend (Friday and Saturday) and he would take Thursday off.
He thought it was just for free, helping a friend, but it turns out he
makes $150.
When Kirby was a young teen and had a job a friend of his and Marty's
asked how he could get a job there too. They said he should go with
them to help fold flyers or set up tables for a gaming tournament.
Marty used to go and help and sometimes they would give him store
credit. The friend said no way, he wasn't going to work for them for
free.
That's how Kirby had gotten the job, though, hanging out, being
interesting and being helpful.
That's how Kirby got this job, too. Hanging out, being interesting,
seeming competent, and being willing.
Before you all consider telling your children and spouses or parents
what it was Kirby did, though, maybe peek in private at the event at
which he helped set up and then was a stagehand. He was also a stunt
man, unexpectedly. I'll let you know after I talk to him whether he
got paid extra for that, but Friday and he thought probably again
Saturday it would happen, he was part of between-sessions entertainment:
Hit on the head with a [prop/trick] frying pan "to set the world
record,"
had a cinder block laid on his groin and broken with a sledge hammer
(he said it didn't hurt but he acted the heck out of it at first)
and was a human dartboard (wood secretly covering his spine, and
special darts that stuck a little into his back but mostly into the
target).
Okay. The conference is this:
http://www.texasburlesquefest.com/
Don't show the photos to anyone under 18 as that might be illegal.
Kirby will be 24 this summer (just a reminder).
Sandra
him before he went to work; it might have been two days) and his
weekend to work a temporary job.
A female friend of his (sister or friend of a co-worker, someone he
met socially through co-workers) asked him if he would like to help
her as a stage hand at a small festival. Sure, he said. It would be
his weekend (Friday and Saturday) and he would take Thursday off.
He thought it was just for free, helping a friend, but it turns out he
makes $150.
When Kirby was a young teen and had a job a friend of his and Marty's
asked how he could get a job there too. They said he should go with
them to help fold flyers or set up tables for a gaming tournament.
Marty used to go and help and sometimes they would give him store
credit. The friend said no way, he wasn't going to work for them for
free.
That's how Kirby had gotten the job, though, hanging out, being
interesting and being helpful.
That's how Kirby got this job, too. Hanging out, being interesting,
seeming competent, and being willing.
Before you all consider telling your children and spouses or parents
what it was Kirby did, though, maybe peek in private at the event at
which he helped set up and then was a stagehand. He was also a stunt
man, unexpectedly. I'll let you know after I talk to him whether he
got paid extra for that, but Friday and he thought probably again
Saturday it would happen, he was part of between-sessions entertainment:
Hit on the head with a [prop/trick] frying pan "to set the world
record,"
had a cinder block laid on his groin and broken with a sledge hammer
(he said it didn't hurt but he acted the heck out of it at first)
and was a human dartboard (wood secretly covering his spine, and
special darts that stuck a little into his back but mostly into the
target).
Okay. The conference is this:
http://www.texasburlesquefest.com/
Don't show the photos to anyone under 18 as that might be illegal.
Kirby will be 24 this summer (just a reminder).
Sandra
Schuyler
One day Simon and Linnaea and I were sitting in the front garden of our terraced house playing the Pokemon board game. Three little boys came over and started talking to us. They asked about Simon and Linnaea and wanted to know where they went to school. I told them they didn't go to school, that we home-educated them. One little boy got really angry when he heard that Simon, a boy his age, didn't go to school. He didn't want to know that there was another way. Knowing that there was another way made his suffering unneccessary. It meant that every morning when he dragged his feet to go to school and his mom or his dad yelled at him, that was something that didn't have to be true. He got angry and he said that Simon and Linnaea had to go to school and I let it go, because he was 6 and he didn't need to feel more lost than he already felt.
I've thought about that little boy, who I never really talked to again, it was just a moment of meeting up on a sunny day in the north of England, and his shattered belief in the necessity of school and I have hoped that he's forgotten. I know there are other children whose lives we have strewn with discontent simply by the choices we have made for our children. I'm listening to the http://sandradodd.com/listen/teenpanel and that comes up at about 23 minutes into the talk. The realisation that a life is better, that the freedoms that the speaker has are greater than those of their more traditionally parented peers and how do you say that without hurting the person you are talking to.
So, maybe all those mean commenting folks are so invested in what they did that they have to justify how it had to work for them and how it has to fail for our kids and for Holly and Brenna and what a total mess we are making of their childhoods, that they are angry to see someone articulate, someone clearly enjoying their life, so they have to tell stories of gloom and doom.
The other day, on the drive to Morris dancing practice, Linnaea and I were talking about Two and a Half Men. I was comparing the early episodes to the Ant and the Grasshopper parable and how Alan was the ant and Charlie was the grasshopper and how the ant always seemed to suffer while the grasshopper continued to dance in the sunshine. Linnaea hadn't heard the story of the ant and the grasshopper so I told it to her and she dismissed it, saying that she enjoyed working, harvesting, gathering from the garden and that you didn't have to suffer to save. And I talked about how, apparently, ants only work about 25% of the time, laying around and idling much of the rest of the time. And she added that most ants are dead before the winter anyhow, at least in colder climates. But that story was something that was used against me in my childhood. I was encouraged to be the ant. I was encouraged to look to the long-term goals over the short-term ones. I can
imagine feeling that a childhood of joy and laughter would lead to an adulthood of unemployment and hardship. That you have to pay the piper.
Anyhow, I'm not saying that these folks are forgiveable, just that they are probably miserable.
Schuyler
________________________________
I used to work as a writer for a news portal on the Internet, and at some time, I stopped reading comments. I had the feeling that people were commenting only to dump (is this a verb in English ?) their frustration and their unhappiness, and to blame somebody - anybody - about it. YouTube is full of such comments, for what I have seen.
My English isn't good enough to put it well, but I have the feeling that, somehow, on some level, kids know/feel/guess that what they are told about school isn't completely right. This whole propaganda. You can buy it or not, but there is a part of you, even a tiny one, who feels that something isn't right. So when somebody comes, who never had to play this foolish game, who is happy and successful, this person is too often welcomed by anger, and resentment, even hatred.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've thought about that little boy, who I never really talked to again, it was just a moment of meeting up on a sunny day in the north of England, and his shattered belief in the necessity of school and I have hoped that he's forgotten. I know there are other children whose lives we have strewn with discontent simply by the choices we have made for our children. I'm listening to the http://sandradodd.com/listen/teenpanel and that comes up at about 23 minutes into the talk. The realisation that a life is better, that the freedoms that the speaker has are greater than those of their more traditionally parented peers and how do you say that without hurting the person you are talking to.
So, maybe all those mean commenting folks are so invested in what they did that they have to justify how it had to work for them and how it has to fail for our kids and for Holly and Brenna and what a total mess we are making of their childhoods, that they are angry to see someone articulate, someone clearly enjoying their life, so they have to tell stories of gloom and doom.
The other day, on the drive to Morris dancing practice, Linnaea and I were talking about Two and a Half Men. I was comparing the early episodes to the Ant and the Grasshopper parable and how Alan was the ant and Charlie was the grasshopper and how the ant always seemed to suffer while the grasshopper continued to dance in the sunshine. Linnaea hadn't heard the story of the ant and the grasshopper so I told it to her and she dismissed it, saying that she enjoyed working, harvesting, gathering from the garden and that you didn't have to suffer to save. And I talked about how, apparently, ants only work about 25% of the time, laying around and idling much of the rest of the time. And she added that most ants are dead before the winter anyhow, at least in colder climates. But that story was something that was used against me in my childhood. I was encouraged to be the ant. I was encouraged to look to the long-term goals over the short-term ones. I can
imagine feeling that a childhood of joy and laughter would lead to an adulthood of unemployment and hardship. That you have to pay the piper.
Anyhow, I'm not saying that these folks are forgiveable, just that they are probably miserable.
Schuyler
________________________________
I used to work as a writer for a news portal on the Internet, and at some time, I stopped reading comments. I had the feeling that people were commenting only to dump (is this a verb in English ?) their frustration and their unhappiness, and to blame somebody - anybody - about it. YouTube is full of such comments, for what I have seen.
My English isn't good enough to put it well, but I have the feeling that, somehow, on some level, kids know/feel/guess that what they are told about school isn't completely right. This whole propaganda. You can buy it or not, but there is a part of you, even a tiny one, who feels that something isn't right. So when somebody comes, who never had to play this foolish game, who is happy and successful, this person is too often welcomed by anger, and resentment, even hatred.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
"These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I suppose
the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
of these comments are very new.
.....
Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
responding on YouTube. Oh well..."
Sorry if I sound harsh, but you could stop taking this stuff so seriously.
@$$holes abound on the net. People in the public eye get shit written about
them. You are a star. Holly is a star. You have a great purpose you are
following. There's no sense in letting this stuff get to you. We can't be
universally respected and liked if we promote radical ways of thought.
The more boats you shake, the more caustic fallout is going to happen. Its
not criticism of either you or them. It just is. You are a great resource
for those who looked for a better way out of that leaky boat. You have
changed countless lives and have tons of people who appreciate the time you
spend thinking about them and their situations. No point being offended by
those who didn't and chose to plug leaks with great loads of stinky goo.
I understand that it leaves a nasty feeling. Heck, I've never met Holly, but
I don't like those comments either. Its just that those crazy people will
write a few thoughtless comments, which contaminate your joy for half a day
(more?), while they probably went on with their lives the minute they hit
'send'. Why? Why give them that importance?
People see what they project. the crap is in their minds. Like the Buddha,
we can refuse to call it ours and leave it at that.
Sorry if this offends. Its not that I'm unsympathetic or that I don't care.
I do, but I care about you and Holly. I just don't see the value in those
people to make them such a focus. I am astounded by you taking those
comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
school could have made Holly" and left it at that. Whatever they write, how
does it matter? The people who matter already know its nonsense.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
of these comments are very new.
.....
Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
responding on YouTube. Oh well..."
Sorry if I sound harsh, but you could stop taking this stuff so seriously.
@$$holes abound on the net. People in the public eye get shit written about
them. You are a star. Holly is a star. You have a great purpose you are
following. There's no sense in letting this stuff get to you. We can't be
universally respected and liked if we promote radical ways of thought.
The more boats you shake, the more caustic fallout is going to happen. Its
not criticism of either you or them. It just is. You are a great resource
for those who looked for a better way out of that leaky boat. You have
changed countless lives and have tons of people who appreciate the time you
spend thinking about them and their situations. No point being offended by
those who didn't and chose to plug leaks with great loads of stinky goo.
I understand that it leaves a nasty feeling. Heck, I've never met Holly, but
I don't like those comments either. Its just that those crazy people will
write a few thoughtless comments, which contaminate your joy for half a day
(more?), while they probably went on with their lives the minute they hit
'send'. Why? Why give them that importance?
People see what they project. the crap is in their minds. Like the Buddha,
we can refuse to call it ours and leave it at that.
Sorry if this offends. Its not that I'm unsympathetic or that I don't care.
I do, but I care about you and Holly. I just don't see the value in those
people to make them such a focus. I am astounded by you taking those
comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
school could have made Holly" and left it at that. Whatever they write, how
does it matter? The people who matter already know its nonsense.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I'd better practice making some collages with my son then so he knows how to earn a living!
Win Wenger, acknowledged creative genius and author of a book called "The Einstein Factor", once said (don't recall where now) that everything school students really need to know could be taught in 100 hours. I did email him to enquire what it is that he thought students really need to know but I didn't get a reply.
Just having a quick look at his "Project Renaissance" website, this is what he writes as the opening to an article called The Future of Education:
"One of the missions of Project Renaissance is to raise consciousness about the inadequacies of the traditional school system and its entrenched approach to education, which has squandered the gifts and potentialities of generations of human beings."
Bob
>If
>
> These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube.
> you want to make more that $11.00 dollars a hour then collage is aROFL
> must.
I'd better practice making some collages with my son then so he knows how to earn a living!
> she is going to be crippled her whole life because she missed 13 yearsThat's a classic example of how school has brainwashed people into thinking that if a person "fails" school that's it for ever. To begin with, missing 13 years of school is not the same as missing 13 years of education. Schools spread the imparting of knowledge out across a long period of time for reasons that are nothing to do with education. Add to that all the 'downtime' in a typical school day. When I obtained some academic qualifications through a correspondence college in 1976, eight years after I quit school, the syllabus my high school had taken four years to cover I covered in nine months studying in my spare time. In the world at large, a self-motivated learner is free to catch up with anything they feel the need to catch up with at any time.
> of school and catching up with all those things is going to be hard. 17
> ----------
>
Win Wenger, acknowledged creative genius and author of a book called "The Einstein Factor", once said (don't recall where now) that everything school students really need to know could be taught in 100 hours. I did email him to enquire what it is that he thought students really need to know but I didn't get a reply.
Just having a quick look at his "Project Renaissance" website, this is what he writes as the opening to an article called The Future of Education:
"One of the missions of Project Renaissance is to raise consciousness about the inadequacies of the traditional school system and its entrenched approach to education, which has squandered the gifts and potentialities of generations of human beings."
Bob
jennifer.neary
-
Jennie
>Is i2Dog saying you can get an instant job making collages? Or being a cheif?
> i2Dog I just want to say to people look at the current job markets. If you want to make more that $11.00 dollars a hour then collage is a must. Even secretaries, hair stylist, cooks/cheifs ,musicians, have some collage education or university education. But if you want an instant job that pays good money then going to collage or university and learning nursing or something related is the best.
> =================================
> These are the people who are pretty sure they're going to get "an
> instant job that pays good money."?
Jennie
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "jennifer.neary" <pcjen@...> wrote:
I think there's some confused thinking in that paragraph never mind the spelling!
Bob
>LOL
>
>
> -
> >
> > i2Dog I just want to say to people look at the current job markets. If you want to make more that $11.00 dollars a hour then collage is a must. Even secretaries, hair stylist, cooks/cheifs ,musicians, have some collage education or university education. But if you want an instant job that pays good money then going to collage or university and learning nursing or something related is the best.
> > =================================
>
>
> > These are the people who are pretty sure they're going to get "an
> > instant job that pays good money."?
>
>
> Is i2Dog saying you can get an instant job making collages? Or being a cheif?
>
>
> Jennie
>
I think there's some confused thinking in that paragraph never mind the spelling!
Bob
k
>>>Anyhow, I'm not saying that these folks are forgiveable, just that they are probably miserable.<<<That was my impression of Juju Chang in the GMA clip (was she in the
2nd clip? I didn't see her.). That she was jealous of the schooling
she went through and of her status of success as an anchor, something
she's very proud of but that might not have been very fun. So having
the idea that "you play, you pay" in mind, she might perceive
unschoolers as unrealistic because of course she doesn't have any
other experience to compare hers with other than school.
What a stew. The clips too but I mean the stew that is the mind of schoolthink.
~Katherine
On 4/26/10, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> One day Simon and Linnaea and I were sitting in the front garden of our
> terraced house playing the Pokemon board game. Three little boys came over
> and started talking to us. They asked about Simon and Linnaea and wanted to
> know where they went to school. I told them they didn't go to school, that
> we home-educated them. One little boy got really angry when he heard that
> Simon, a boy his age, didn't go to school. He didn't want to know that there
> was another way. Knowing that there was another way made his suffering
> unneccessary. It meant that every morning when he dragged his feet to go to
> school and his mom or his dad yelled at him, that was something that didn't
> have to be true. He got angry and he said that Simon and Linnaea had to go
> to school and I let it go, because he was 6 and he didn't need to feel more
> lost than he already felt.
>
> I've thought about that little boy, who I never really talked to again, it
> was just a moment of meeting up on a sunny day in the north of England, and
> his shattered belief in the necessity of school and I have hoped that he's
> forgotten. I know there are other children whose lives we have strewn with
> discontent simply by the choices we have made for our children. I'm
> listening to the http://sandradodd.com/listen/teenpanel and that comes up at
> about 23 minutes into the talk. The realisation that a life is better, that
> the freedoms that the speaker has are greater than those of their more
> traditionally parented peers and how do you say that without hurting the
> person you are talking to.
>
> So, maybe all those mean commenting folks are so invested in what they did
> that they have to justify how it had to work for them and how it has to fail
> for our kids and for Holly and Brenna and what a total mess we are making of
> their childhoods, that they are angry to see someone articulate, someone
> clearly enjoying their life, so they have to tell stories of gloom and doom.
>
> The other day, on the drive to Morris dancing practice, Linnaea and I were
> talking about Two and a Half Men. I was comparing the early episodes to the
> Ant and the Grasshopper parable and how Alan was the ant and Charlie was the
> grasshopper and how the ant always seemed to suffer while the grasshopper
> continued to dance in the sunshine. Linnaea hadn't heard the story of the
> ant and the grasshopper so I told it to her and she dismissed it, saying
> that she enjoyed working, harvesting, gathering from the garden and that you
> didn't have to suffer to save. And I talked about how, apparently, ants only
> work about 25% of the time, laying around and idling much of the rest of the
> time. And she added that most ants are dead before the winter anyhow, at
> least in colder climates. But that story was something that was used against
> me in my childhood. I was encouraged to be the ant. I was encouraged to look
> to the long-term goals over the short-term ones. I can
> imagine feeling that a childhood of joy and laughter would lead to an
> adulthood of unemployment and hardship. That you have to pay the piper.
>
> Anyhow, I'm not saying that these folks are forgiveable, just that they are
> probably miserable.
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> I used to work as a writer for a news portal on the Internet, and at some
> time, I stopped reading comments. I had the feeling that people were
> commenting only to dump (is this a verb in English ?) their frustration and
> their unhappiness, and to blame somebody - anybody - about it. YouTube is
> full of such comments, for what I have seen.
>
> My English isn't good enough to put it well, but I have the feeling that,
> somehow, on some level, kids know/feel/guess that what they are told about
> school isn't completely right. This whole propaganda. You can buy it or not,
> but there is a part of you, even a tiny one, who feels that something isn't
> right. So when somebody comes, who never had to play this foolish game, who
> is happy and successful, this person is too often welcomed by anger, and
> resentment, even hatred.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Rebecca M.
Schuyler wrote:
I suspect that's why there is so much "poof" after an unschooling piece on a major network. It's like dropping the match over the flambee. Conditions are already ripe for a reaction -- all the ingredients are there. People know that *most* kids aren't happy in school. Most adults have a residual aching feeling about their own school experiences. It's the elephant in the room because our society says, "In order to be successful, school is a necessary evil, so either fall in line or go lie in the gutter."
When people see that there really is another way (in our society, at least) and that it makes for happy children and parents, it shakes the very core of their fragile tower of social compliance. They react because it's scary and yes, it likely increases their own feelings of unhappiness. Digging themselves into a position feels safe and stable (although I believe that the seed has already been planted).
- Rebecca
>**So, maybe all those mean commenting folks are so invested in what they did that they have to justify how it had to work for them and how it has to fail for our kids and for Holly and Brenna and what a total mess we are making of their childhoods, that they are angry to see someone articulate, someone clearly enjoying their life, so they have to tell stories of gloom and doom.Schuyler, I agree. I read that quote with all the misspelled words and I thought, hm, is this person even an adult yet? Or is this a young person whose parents have been trying to get him/her to believe in the system and, so far, it's working?
>
> Anyhow, I'm not saying that these folks are forgiveable, just that they are probably miserable.**
I suspect that's why there is so much "poof" after an unschooling piece on a major network. It's like dropping the match over the flambee. Conditions are already ripe for a reaction -- all the ingredients are there. People know that *most* kids aren't happy in school. Most adults have a residual aching feeling about their own school experiences. It's the elephant in the room because our society says, "In order to be successful, school is a necessary evil, so either fall in line or go lie in the gutter."
When people see that there really is another way (in our society, at least) and that it makes for happy children and parents, it shakes the very core of their fragile tower of social compliance. They react because it's scary and yes, it likely increases their own feelings of unhappiness. Digging themselves into a position feels safe and stable (although I believe that the seed has already been planted).
- Rebecca
k
Some people while not worried about the comments however are concerned
that a trigger happy legislation might target unschooling and push it
underground. People are jealous of their schooling success (?) and
don't want to take anything else seriously unless it's to laugh as it
gets put down. Same thing if people are lounging around playing music
and a famous musician gets in trouble for some scandal. People who are
feeling on the outs from that who identify with something not as fun,
will LUV to chew on that famous musician and maybe even egg it on.
I agree that crying over criticism is silly. It's the other things
that might not be silly -- in terms of the consequences of a happy
life -- especially in the US where many people are abuzz about
economic downturn and use their jobless/lower pay as reasons to scope
for a variety of possible scapegoats.
~Katherine
that a trigger happy legislation might target unschooling and push it
underground. People are jealous of their schooling success (?) and
don't want to take anything else seriously unless it's to laugh as it
gets put down. Same thing if people are lounging around playing music
and a famous musician gets in trouble for some scandal. People who are
feeling on the outs from that who identify with something not as fun,
will LUV to chew on that famous musician and maybe even egg it on.
I agree that crying over criticism is silly. It's the other things
that might not be silly -- in terms of the consequences of a happy
life -- especially in the US where many people are abuzz about
economic downturn and use their jobless/lower pay as reasons to scope
for a variety of possible scapegoats.
~Katherine
On 4/26/10, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
> "These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I suppose
> the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
> of these comments are very new.
>
> .....
>
> Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
> Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
> responding on YouTube. Oh well..."
>
> Sorry if I sound harsh, but you could stop taking this stuff so seriously.
> @$$holes abound on the net. People in the public eye get shit written about
> them. You are a star. Holly is a star. You have a great purpose you are
> following. There's no sense in letting this stuff get to you. We can't be
> universally respected and liked if we promote radical ways of thought.
>
> The more boats you shake, the more caustic fallout is going to happen. Its
> not criticism of either you or them. It just is. You are a great resource
> for those who looked for a better way out of that leaky boat. You have
> changed countless lives and have tons of people who appreciate the time you
> spend thinking about them and their situations. No point being offended by
> those who didn't and chose to plug leaks with great loads of stinky goo.
>
> I understand that it leaves a nasty feeling. Heck, I've never met Holly, but
> I don't like those comments either. Its just that those crazy people will
> write a few thoughtless comments, which contaminate your joy for half a day
> (more?), while they probably went on with their lives the minute they hit
> 'send'. Why? Why give them that importance?
>
> People see what they project. the crap is in their minds. Like the Buddha,
> we can refuse to call it ours and leave it at that.
>
> Sorry if this offends. Its not that I'm unsympathetic or that I don't care.
> I do, but I care about you and Holly. I just don't see the value in those
> people to make them such a focus. I am astounded by you taking those
> comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
> attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
> school could have made Holly" and left it at that. Whatever they write, how
> does it matter? The people who matter already know its nonsense.
>
> Vidyut
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
k
LOL.. Sometimes my phrasing leaves much to be desired (end of 1st
paragraph, in case anybody missed that). :P *chuckle*
paragraph, in case anybody missed that). :P *chuckle*
On 4/26/10, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> Some people while not worried about the comments however are concerned
> that a trigger happy legislation might target unschooling and push it
> underground. People are jealous of their schooling success (?) and
> don't want to take anything else seriously unless it's to laugh as it
> gets put down. Same thing if people are lounging around playing music
> and a famous musician gets in trouble for some scandal. People who are
> feeling on the outs from that who identify with something not as fun,
> will LUV to chew on that famous musician and maybe even egg it on.
>
> I agree that crying over criticism is silly. It's the other things
> that might not be silly -- in terms of the consequences of a happy
> life -- especially in the US where many people are abuzz about
> economic downturn and use their jobless/lower pay as reasons to scope
> for a variety of possible scapegoats.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
> On 4/26/10, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
>> "These comments were under the video of Holly, on YouTube. I suppose
>> the comments got stirred up because of the shit storm last week. Some
>> of these comments are very new.
>>
>> .....
>>
>> Holly had a $10 an hour job working to help set up an art gallery in
>> Silver City. I forgot about that, when I was wasting my time
>> responding on YouTube. Oh well..."
>>
>> Sorry if I sound harsh, but you could stop taking this stuff so
>> seriously.
>> @$$holes abound on the net. People in the public eye get shit written
>> about
>> them. You are a star. Holly is a star. You have a great purpose you are
>> following. There's no sense in letting this stuff get to you. We can't be
>> universally respected and liked if we promote radical ways of thought.
>>
>> The more boats you shake, the more caustic fallout is going to happen.
>> Its
>> not criticism of either you or them. It just is. You are a great resource
>> for those who looked for a better way out of that leaky boat. You have
>> changed countless lives and have tons of people who appreciate the time
>> you
>> spend thinking about them and their situations. No point being offended
>> by
>> those who didn't and chose to plug leaks with great loads of stinky goo.
>>
>> I understand that it leaves a nasty feeling. Heck, I've never met Holly,
>> but
>> I don't like those comments either. Its just that those crazy people will
>> write a few thoughtless comments, which contaminate your joy for half a
>> day
>> (more?), while they probably went on with their lives the minute they hit
>> 'send'. Why? Why give them that importance?
>>
>> People see what they project. the crap is in their minds. Like the
>> Buddha,
>> we can refuse to call it ours and leave it at that.
>>
>> Sorry if this offends. Its not that I'm unsympathetic or that I don't
>> care.
>> I do, but I care about you and Holly. I just don't see the value in those
>> people to make them such a focus. I am astounded by you taking those
>> comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
>> attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
>> school could have made Holly" and left it at that. Whatever they write,
>> how
>> does it matter? The people who matter already know its nonsense.
>>
>> Vidyut
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- But that story was something that was used against me in my
childhood. I was encouraged to be the ant. I was encouraged to look to
the long-term goals over the short-term ones. I can imagine feeling
that a childhood of joy and laughter would lead to an adulthood of
unemployment and hardship. That you have to pay the piper. -=-
How true! We had that story in two or three of our "readers" or it
came up one way or another more than twice while I was in elementary
school. And it was on TV, on some kids' show (Captain Kangaroo,
probably).
It was a way to make people feel guilty early and often, if they
weren't doing what would lead to a long, secure winter. And maybe
that came partly from the horrors of the 19th century and early 20th
in general--diseases and wars and the ease with which people were just
put off land they had worked and built houses on. I know that still
happens some places, but in Europe and the U.S., it was happening
quite a bit, in various places, in those days. And for black families
in the U.S.... double disaster with disease and the Great Depression.
So being irresponsible and farting around (or drinking--prohibition
days in the U.S.) were the worst possible things to do. Thousands
would turn and point and say "stop it."
Perhaps those in the discussions who are telling me and a bunch of you
that we're the worst possible parents and the lowest type of idiots
are carrying on that tradition. But I think this is a big part, too.
I'm guessing it's Joanna Murphy. I wrote to ask but the mail was
returned.
Joanna has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what do you
think?":
Crunchy Chicken said: "Many unschoolers have painted traditional
schooling with a broad brush that is offensive to many, much like the
opposite side has done with unschooling."
But it's not the same. All of us who unschool have come from a
background of having gone to school, and often having had our kids in
school. My oldest was in two schools, as a matter of fact. That
doesn't make me an expert on schools, but it does give me a base of
experience, combined with my own and my husband's experience, to form
an intelligent opinion about school.
If I say something unflattering about school, it's because I had a
real experience. And I answer the statewide homeschool information
line for my state, so I many experiences to draw on from which to form
an opinion. People talking about unschooling who haven't DONE
unschooling, or seen it in action in some concrete way don't have the
right to paint any picture of it at all. They can make connections,
ask questions, have an opinion, etc., but to make any pronouncements
about it such as it couldn't possibly work, doesn't really make sense
to me at all.
If someone says something "offensive" about school, and a reader
hasn't had that experience, then chances are they know someone who
has. If they haven't and they don't, then that's fine too (and a good
thing!), but the stories are in the news all the time. It's not as if
we are making this stuff up! There are reasons that we've searched out
an alternative to traditional schooling. And don't forget that you
posed the question on your blog. If we all felt warm and fuzzy about
traditional school, we probably wouldn't have chosen to unschool, and
you wouldn't have asked the question.
======
It is complex, whatever it all is, and we're at the bottom of the
funnel getting dumped on sometimes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
childhood. I was encouraged to be the ant. I was encouraged to look to
the long-term goals over the short-term ones. I can imagine feeling
that a childhood of joy and laughter would lead to an adulthood of
unemployment and hardship. That you have to pay the piper. -=-
How true! We had that story in two or three of our "readers" or it
came up one way or another more than twice while I was in elementary
school. And it was on TV, on some kids' show (Captain Kangaroo,
probably).
It was a way to make people feel guilty early and often, if they
weren't doing what would lead to a long, secure winter. And maybe
that came partly from the horrors of the 19th century and early 20th
in general--diseases and wars and the ease with which people were just
put off land they had worked and built houses on. I know that still
happens some places, but in Europe and the U.S., it was happening
quite a bit, in various places, in those days. And for black families
in the U.S.... double disaster with disease and the Great Depression.
So being irresponsible and farting around (or drinking--prohibition
days in the U.S.) were the worst possible things to do. Thousands
would turn and point and say "stop it."
Perhaps those in the discussions who are telling me and a bunch of you
that we're the worst possible parents and the lowest type of idiots
are carrying on that tradition. But I think this is a big part, too.
I'm guessing it's Joanna Murphy. I wrote to ask but the mail was
returned.
Joanna has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what do you
think?":
Crunchy Chicken said: "Many unschoolers have painted traditional
schooling with a broad brush that is offensive to many, much like the
opposite side has done with unschooling."
But it's not the same. All of us who unschool have come from a
background of having gone to school, and often having had our kids in
school. My oldest was in two schools, as a matter of fact. That
doesn't make me an expert on schools, but it does give me a base of
experience, combined with my own and my husband's experience, to form
an intelligent opinion about school.
If I say something unflattering about school, it's because I had a
real experience. And I answer the statewide homeschool information
line for my state, so I many experiences to draw on from which to form
an opinion. People talking about unschooling who haven't DONE
unschooling, or seen it in action in some concrete way don't have the
right to paint any picture of it at all. They can make connections,
ask questions, have an opinion, etc., but to make any pronouncements
about it such as it couldn't possibly work, doesn't really make sense
to me at all.
If someone says something "offensive" about school, and a reader
hasn't had that experience, then chances are they know someone who
has. If they haven't and they don't, then that's fine too (and a good
thing!), but the stories are in the news all the time. It's not as if
we are making this stuff up! There are reasons that we've searched out
an alternative to traditional schooling. And don't forget that you
posed the question on your blog. If we all felt warm and fuzzy about
traditional school, we probably wouldn't have chosen to unschool, and
you wouldn't have asked the question.
======
It is complex, whatever it all is, and we're at the bottom of the
funnel getting dumped on sometimes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I am astounded by you taking those
comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
school could have made Holly" and left it at that.-=-
Mostly that was the feeling. RELIEF! Relief that my kids weren't
around people so mean and negative, and hadn't been provided the
school environment that creates a lot of that defense/attack emotion
and behavior. The logical part of me knew that.
The mother/protector part of me saw teenaged boys and grown men
insulting my daughter.
That's real too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
comments seriously. In your place, I wouldn't have given them further
attention beyond "thank you for providing a sample of what 13 years of
school could have made Holly" and left it at that.-=-
Mostly that was the feeling. RELIEF! Relief that my kids weren't
around people so mean and negative, and hadn't been provided the
school environment that creates a lot of that defense/attack emotion
and behavior. The logical part of me knew that.
The mother/protector part of me saw teenaged boys and grown men
insulting my daughter.
That's real too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-"One of the missions of Project Renaissance is to raise
consciousness about the inadequacies of the traditional school system
and its entrenched approach to education, which has squandered the
gifts and potentialities of generations of human beings."-=-
OH YIKES. Them's some harsh words, and I've been in there and seen
that, and have stories from my parents' and grandparents' school days
too. SAD stories.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consciousness about the inadequacies of the traditional school system
and its entrenched approach to education, which has squandered the
gifts and potentialities of generations of human beings."-=-
OH YIKES. Them's some harsh words, and I've been in there and seen
that, and have stories from my parents' and grandparents' school days
too. SAD stories.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I agree that crying over criticism is silly.-=-
HEY, HEY, HEY...
I wasn't crying.
And until it's one of YOUR kids being insulted insanely in public,
give me some slack.
I don't need to help anybody anymore at all (even if I ever did "need
to") because my kids are grown. I could delete my site, pull my books
off LuLu's site, and give this list to Joyce and Pam.
OH WAIT! Their kids are grown too.
I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity
would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HEY, HEY, HEY...
I wasn't crying.
And until it's one of YOUR kids being insulted insanely in public,
give me some slack.
I don't need to help anybody anymore at all (even if I ever did "need
to") because my kids are grown. I could delete my site, pull my books
off LuLu's site, and give this list to Joyce and Pam.
OH WAIT! Their kids are grown too.
I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity
would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
delialowell
******* I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.*******
Sandra, absolutely. In fact, I really admire your approach in responding to some of those comments, because in your shoes my short temper would probably have prompted me to fire off a few - no, a lot - of four-letter words that would have accomplished nothing except to bait the trolls.
I am so grateful and appreciative for all that you have done and continue to do, the time you spend, the efforts that you make. I spent the first half of my life involved in show biz, so I understand what it's like to put yourself out there and be left open to criticism and opinions that are not always kind. I can't imagine what it feels like when the person being criticized is your child. My daughter (Dee) is nine, and when she read some of the comments about Holly she was angry. She called those posters ignoramuses, and I wholeheartedly agree.
Kris
Sandra, absolutely. In fact, I really admire your approach in responding to some of those comments, because in your shoes my short temper would probably have prompted me to fire off a few - no, a lot - of four-letter words that would have accomplished nothing except to bait the trolls.
I am so grateful and appreciative for all that you have done and continue to do, the time you spend, the efforts that you make. I spent the first half of my life involved in show biz, so I understand what it's like to put yourself out there and be left open to criticism and opinions that are not always kind. I can't imagine what it feels like when the person being criticized is your child. My daughter (Dee) is nine, and when she read some of the comments about Holly she was angry. She called those posters ignoramuses, and I wholeheartedly agree.
Kris
Su Penn
On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Lately, I've also appreciated hearing you mention things like that you felt overwhelmed when your kids were young, or a certain time when things weren't perfect between Keith and Kirby. And I appreciated you sharing your hell of a week, too. It was kind of nice to realize that happens to you sometimes! And to send my sympathy out into the ether, for what it was worth.
I don't think this list is perfect, but when I've tried to join other unschooling discussion lists, it always ends up feeling like there's just not as high a standard. I recently joined one where the first lengthy discussion I saw was all about what math curriculum to buy. "This is an unschooling list?" I thought. Nobody was even bothering to question whether buying a math curriculum was a good idea or not. I don't need people telling me to buy a math curriculum; I struggle to let go of the idea that my kids (my oldest in particular) "should" be at a certain level in math and reading. I need people who, if I say, "I'm thinking about doing math worksheets with Eric..." will question that, give me other ideas, tell me stories of how their kids learned and used math.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymityI have actually always been amazed at you, Joyce, and Pam and how you have hung in over the years. I used to be a moderator on AlwaysUnschooled, and I left the list partly for personal reasons and partly because I just didn't have the patience to deal with the "what about TV? What about sugar? What about college?" questions for the 1000th time.
> would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.
Lately, I've also appreciated hearing you mention things like that you felt overwhelmed when your kids were young, or a certain time when things weren't perfect between Keith and Kirby. And I appreciated you sharing your hell of a week, too. It was kind of nice to realize that happens to you sometimes! And to send my sympathy out into the ether, for what it was worth.
I don't think this list is perfect, but when I've tried to join other unschooling discussion lists, it always ends up feeling like there's just not as high a standard. I recently joined one where the first lengthy discussion I saw was all about what math curriculum to buy. "This is an unschooling list?" I thought. Nobody was even bothering to question whether buying a math curriculum was a good idea or not. I don't need people telling me to buy a math curriculum; I struggle to let go of the idea that my kids (my oldest in particular) "should" be at a certain level in math and reading. I need people who, if I say, "I'm thinking about doing math worksheets with Eric..." will question that, give me other ideas, tell me stories of how their kids learned and used math.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
NCMama
I didn't realize your book was on Lulu.com - Someone on my local unschooling list posted this today:
http://www.Lulu.com
$10 off your order of $25 or more
Enter code FRIEND6327 at checkout
Offer ends 5/3/10
Here's the link to the book - and it's just enough to use the coupon!
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/big-book-of-unschooling/6009519
Caren
http://www.Lulu.com
$10 off your order of $25 or more
Enter code FRIEND6327 at checkout
Offer ends 5/3/10
Here's the link to the book - and it's just enough to use the coupon!
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/big-book-of-unschooling/6009519
Caren
Jenny Cyphers
"One of the missions of Project Renaissance is to raise consciousness about the inadequacies of the traditional school system and its entrenched approach to education, which has squandered the gifts and potentialities of generations of human beings."
Oh Bob! That is something that I feel deeply all the time! I have all these amazing teenagers that Chamille has brought to my life, schooled kids, that are just brilliant and full of life. It's so sad to me, to see all that wonderful creative energy stuck inside 4 walls all day doing meaningless to them stuff with the promise of one day being able to use that meaningless stuff.
The sheer boredom and hatred of school that they experience is only part of the damage! By the time they get to 18 or 24 they have lost lots of that energy that so many teenagers just have. I so love that my kids don't have to experience either of those things. They don't need to experience boredom combined with hatred and feeling stuck. They can use that wonderful energy to keep their momentum of life going. School is like riding a bike and slowing down at the bottom of a big hill. Real life is like taking the momentum of the fun ride down hill to pull you up the next hill.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh Bob! That is something that I feel deeply all the time! I have all these amazing teenagers that Chamille has brought to my life, schooled kids, that are just brilliant and full of life. It's so sad to me, to see all that wonderful creative energy stuck inside 4 walls all day doing meaningless to them stuff with the promise of one day being able to use that meaningless stuff.
The sheer boredom and hatred of school that they experience is only part of the damage! By the time they get to 18 or 24 they have lost lots of that energy that so many teenagers just have. I so love that my kids don't have to experience either of those things. They don't need to experience boredom combined with hatred and feeling stuck. They can use that wonderful energy to keep their momentum of life going. School is like riding a bike and slowing down at the bottom of a big hill. Real life is like taking the momentum of the fun ride down hill to pull you up the next hill.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-School is like riding a bike and slowing down at the bottom of a
big hill. Real life is like taking the momentum of the fun ride down
hill to pull you up the next hill.-=-
This is beautiful.
I'm glad for all the great writing today. It's also a little
depressing.
I was just talking to Kirby. He said the girl who had the stage crew
contract works with him at Blizzard, and she's also an exotic dancer.
She performed the first night. I asked him if it was awkward, seeing
a co-worker naked. He said not for him, but his boss didn't come to
the festival at all because of that. He told the boss that Midge was
only performing on Thursday and that he could come one of the other
nights, but he opted out, Kirby figured for fear of seeing an employee
"out of uniform."
He did indeed get to be a stuntman again the next night, and said
"only one person stuck me with a dart Saturday night."
OH! I didn't know the darts were being thrown from the audience!! He
had a blast.
The people he most enjoyed meeting and talking to were two veteran
performers, one older than I am (Satan's Angel) and one not quite so
old, but still has been doing it a long time (Dusty Summers). They
were talkative and interesting and he was glad to meet them. He said
the performers and organizers seemed ecstatic that they were there, so
they must be famous within the industry.
He told me about the sole male performer, "The Mystic," a
contortionist who wore a face mask; a hoop-hanging acrobat; a midget
who did a routine to an AC-DC song, dressed in a school-boy uniform
(at first).
He said the show ended at 12:30 Saturday night, and they finished
breaking down at 4:30 a.m. Then he worked at his regular job on
Sunday.
So he learned a lot. Not a bit of it was stuff he would've learned in
school ;-P
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
big hill. Real life is like taking the momentum of the fun ride down
hill to pull you up the next hill.-=-
This is beautiful.
I'm glad for all the great writing today. It's also a little
depressing.
I was just talking to Kirby. He said the girl who had the stage crew
contract works with him at Blizzard, and she's also an exotic dancer.
She performed the first night. I asked him if it was awkward, seeing
a co-worker naked. He said not for him, but his boss didn't come to
the festival at all because of that. He told the boss that Midge was
only performing on Thursday and that he could come one of the other
nights, but he opted out, Kirby figured for fear of seeing an employee
"out of uniform."
He did indeed get to be a stuntman again the next night, and said
"only one person stuck me with a dart Saturday night."
OH! I didn't know the darts were being thrown from the audience!! He
had a blast.
The people he most enjoyed meeting and talking to were two veteran
performers, one older than I am (Satan's Angel) and one not quite so
old, but still has been doing it a long time (Dusty Summers). They
were talkative and interesting and he was glad to meet them. He said
the performers and organizers seemed ecstatic that they were there, so
they must be famous within the industry.
He told me about the sole male performer, "The Mystic," a
contortionist who wore a face mask; a hoop-hanging acrobat; a midget
who did a routine to an AC-DC song, dressed in a school-boy uniform
(at first).
He said the show ended at 12:30 Saturday night, and they finished
breaking down at 4:30 a.m. Then he worked at his regular job on
Sunday.
So he learned a lot. Not a bit of it was stuff he would've learned in
school ;-P
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Sandra, I didn't think *you* were crying at all! I lost the thought in
the original post and I was being much more general when I said
"silly." I wasn't talking about any specific individual. My comment
wasn't about you. And had I paid more attention to the direction of
the entire thread, I could have avoided seeming more specific than I
intended.
And I don't seriously see many unschooling parents crying. Some may
have been focusing on the negatives of criticism a bit more than
others. But I mostly just saw annoyance at wanting to answer
uninformed opinion but really preferring to get on with their own
happy lives away from crud and criticism.
What's silly are the comments about Holly. Goofy stuff.
~Katherine
the original post and I was being much more general when I said
"silly." I wasn't talking about any specific individual. My comment
wasn't about you. And had I paid more attention to the direction of
the entire thread, I could have avoided seeming more specific than I
intended.
And I don't seriously see many unschooling parents crying. Some may
have been focusing on the negatives of criticism a bit more than
others. But I mostly just saw annoyance at wanting to answer
uninformed opinion but really preferring to get on with their own
happy lives away from crud and criticism.
What's silly are the comments about Holly. Goofy stuff.
~Katherine
On 4/26/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I agree that crying over criticism is silly.-=-
>
> HEY, HEY, HEY...
> I wasn't crying.
> And until it's one of YOUR kids being insulted insanely in public,
> give me some slack.
>
> I don't need to help anybody anymore at all (even if I ever did "need
> to") because my kids are grown. I could delete my site, pull my books
> off LuLu's site, and give this list to Joyce and Pam.
>
> OH WAIT! Their kids are grown too.
>
> I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity
> would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
k
>>> I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.<<<Sarcasm to follow: I especially love it when people pipe up with,
"This isn't about how you or your kids feel." (paraphrased) /end
sarcasm/
Geez, I thought it was. That's such a big part of unschooling in the
first place. It IS about feelings. Which is why education, though a
by-product of paying attention to the emotional life of a family,
isn't the primary focus of unschooling.
~Katherine
On 4/26/10, Su Penn <su@...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
>> I would appreciate it if people whose kids are enjoying anonymity
>> would step back a bit from telling me I'm wrong to have feelings.
>
> I have actually always been amazed at you, Joyce, and Pam and how you have
> hung in over the years. I used to be a moderator on AlwaysUnschooled, and I
> left the list partly for personal reasons and partly because I just didn't
> have the patience to deal with the "what about TV? What about sugar? What
> about college?" questions for the 1000th time.
>
> Lately, I've also appreciated hearing you mention things like that you felt
> overwhelmed when your kids were young, or a certain time when things weren't
> perfect between Keith and Kirby. And I appreciated you sharing your hell of
> a week, too. It was kind of nice to realize that happens to you sometimes!
> And to send my sympathy out into the ether, for what it was worth.
>
> I don't think this list is perfect, but when I've tried to join other
> unschooling discussion lists, it always ends up feeling like there's just
> not as high a standard. I recently joined one where the first lengthy
> discussion I saw was all about what math curriculum to buy. "This is an
> unschooling list?" I thought. Nobody was even bothering to question whether
> buying a math curriculum was a good idea or not. I don't need people telling
> me to buy a math curriculum; I struggle to let go of the idea that my kids
> (my oldest in particular) "should" be at a certain level in math and
> reading. I need people who, if I say, "I'm thinking about doing math
> worksheets with Eric..." will question that, give me other ideas, tell me
> stories of how their kids learned and used math.
>
> Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
> tapeflags.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
keetry
I think those comments are a perfect example of why someone would choose not to send their children to school. If these are the great minds that schools are turning out, I want nothing to do with it.
Alysia
Alysia
> HomieFilms @GreenFi5h
> stop trying to defend this dumb bitch. Sure college does not guarantee
> success but sitting at home doing nothing sure doesn't help you get
> a good job you dumb fuck.
> she is going to be crippled her whole life because she missed 13 years
> of school and catching up with all those things is going to be hard. 17
> ----------
>
> 3 days ago
> â¢
> pwnuloser3200 @HomieFilms you are so right!!!! good shit dude!! I
> know I love school because it's going to be worth it :P
> =================================
keetry
==It IS about feelings. Which is why education, though a by-product of paying attention to the emotional life of a family, isn't the primary focus of unschooling.==
I took that quote from a post on feelings but I had to because it really drove things home for me in trying to answer this question. I've been thinking about the question since it was first posted. I wrote a couple of responses but they were too lengthy and meandering. This quote, though, gets right to it.
No amount of education or knowledge or intelligence or success is worth anything if one is not happy, if one doesn't feel good about himself and what he does. It is more important to me that my children feel good about themselves than that they can spit back rote answers on a test. If they feel good about themselves and they've learned the tools necessary to find any answers they need, they can do anything.
Alysia
I took that quote from a post on feelings but I had to because it really drove things home for me in trying to answer this question. I've been thinking about the question since it was first posted. I wrote a couple of responses but they were too lengthy and meandering. This quote, though, gets right to it.
No amount of education or knowledge or intelligence or success is worth anything if one is not happy, if one doesn't feel good about himself and what he does. It is more important to me that my children feel good about themselves than that they can spit back rote answers on a test. If they feel good about themselves and they've learned the tools necessary to find any answers they need, they can do anything.
Alysia
keetry
I've been thinking about this some more. I find it interesting that people can say that unschooled kids will grow up to be unemployable adults. Maybe it would be possible to find some adults who were unschooled who don't contribute to society in any way just because anything is a possibility. I don't have any idea how many unschooled adults are out there and what they are doing. However, there are many, many schooled adults who don't work, are unemployable and are otherwise not contributing to society. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that since an 18 or 22 or 24 year old didn't go to college or isn't completely self-sufficient that unschooling doesn't work. If that were true, what does that say about the numerous schooled adults who haven't done that? When you look at the big picture, statements like that make school look worse, in my opinion.
Alysia
Alysia