rules/principles
Sandra Dodd
Rebecca in British Columbia wrote this in response to questions about
unschooling on a blog. It's clear and concise, and if I can get a
last name to go with this, I'd love to save it on my site under
principles, please!
---------------
Crunchy Chicken also asks:
"The families that GMA covers do radical unschooling which extends
their unschooling ideas to their parenting and they have no rules. Is
this common?"
There is a difference between rules (which are very black and white,
not very flexible) and principles (which are all encompassing and
provide opportunities for dialogue). I would say that many
"mainstream" parents also use something like principles for raising
their children. "Rules" are what "Brick Wall" parents (a Barbara
Coloroso term) stick to when they are dealing with their kids. It's
the "my way or the highway" approach to parenting and tends to be
absolute, resulting in punishment or "consequences" for relatively
minor misdemeanors. Other parents have "rules" but really use them as
guidelines for their children's behaviour rather than opportunities to
be authoritarian or punitive. They may think "natural" or "logical"
consequences are a fair way to deal with a child's behaviour, not
realizing that those are often punitive in their own right. eg) a
child forgets his lunch and goes hungry as a result... a "natural"
consequence; or a child leaves his Lego on the floor for a week, so it
gets piled in a bag and put on the top shelf in the closet ... a
"logical" consequence that takes away something the child cares deeply
about.
Radical unschooling takes discipline to a different level with
principles. Principles guide the interactions within the family. They
help to provide a compass for behaviour... for all family members. But
unschooling parents also realize that when a child's behaviour is
difficult to live with, it may be because the child is trying to
communicate something they can't put into words. Unschooling parents
take the time to get to the root of the problem rather than punishing
a child or isolating a child through time out. It's a compassionate
approach to "discipline" that doesn't mean that "anything goes". It
simply means that children are treated respectfully, gently, and with
kindness at all times.
unschooling on a blog. It's clear and concise, and if I can get a
last name to go with this, I'd love to save it on my site under
principles, please!
---------------
Crunchy Chicken also asks:
"The families that GMA covers do radical unschooling which extends
their unschooling ideas to their parenting and they have no rules. Is
this common?"
There is a difference between rules (which are very black and white,
not very flexible) and principles (which are all encompassing and
provide opportunities for dialogue). I would say that many
"mainstream" parents also use something like principles for raising
their children. "Rules" are what "Brick Wall" parents (a Barbara
Coloroso term) stick to when they are dealing with their kids. It's
the "my way or the highway" approach to parenting and tends to be
absolute, resulting in punishment or "consequences" for relatively
minor misdemeanors. Other parents have "rules" but really use them as
guidelines for their children's behaviour rather than opportunities to
be authoritarian or punitive. They may think "natural" or "logical"
consequences are a fair way to deal with a child's behaviour, not
realizing that those are often punitive in their own right. eg) a
child forgets his lunch and goes hungry as a result... a "natural"
consequence; or a child leaves his Lego on the floor for a week, so it
gets piled in a bag and put on the top shelf in the closet ... a
"logical" consequence that takes away something the child cares deeply
about.
Radical unschooling takes discipline to a different level with
principles. Principles guide the interactions within the family. They
help to provide a compass for behaviour... for all family members. But
unschooling parents also realize that when a child's behaviour is
difficult to live with, it may be because the child is trying to
communicate something they can't put into words. Unschooling parents
take the time to get to the root of the problem rather than punishing
a child or isolating a child through time out. It's a compassionate
approach to "discipline" that doesn't mean that "anything goes". It
simply means that children are treated respectfully, gently, and with
kindness at all times.
Robin Bentley
This *is* lovely.
Where are you, Rebecca? I'd like to meet you the next time I come home
to Vancouver, if you're there!
Robin B.
Where are you, Rebecca? I'd like to meet you the next time I come home
to Vancouver, if you're there!
Robin B.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There is a difference between rules (which are very black and white,
> not very flexible) and principles (which are all encompassing and
> provide opportunities for dialogue). I would say that many
> "mainstream" parents also use something like principles for raising
> their children. "Rules" are what "Brick Wall" parents (a Barbara
> Coloroso term) stick to when they are dealing with their kids. It's
> the "my way or the highway" approach to parenting and tends to be
> absolute, resulting in punishment or "consequences" for relatively
> minor misdemeanors. Other parents have "rules" but really use them as
> guidelines for their children's behaviour rather than opportunities to
> be authoritarian or punitive. They may think "natural" or "logical"
> consequences are a fair way to deal with a child's behaviour, not
> realizing that those are often punitive in their own right. eg) a
> child forgets his lunch and goes hungry as a result... a "natural"
> consequence; or a child leaves his Lego on the floor for a week, so it
> gets piled in a bag and put on the top shelf in the closet ... a
> "logical" consequence that takes away something the child cares deeply
> about.
>
> Radical unschooling takes discipline to a different level with
> principles. Principles guide the interactions within the family. They
> help to provide a compass for behaviour... for all family members. But
> unschooling parents also realize that when a child's behaviour is
> difficult to live with, it may be because the child is trying to
> communicate something they can't put into words. Unschooling parents
> take the time to get to the root of the problem rather than punishing
> a child or isolating a child through time out. It's a compassionate
> approach to "discipline" that doesn't mean that "anything goes". It
> simply means that children are treated respectfully, gently, and with
> kindness at all times.
Rebecca M.
> This *is* lovely.Thanks. I had an inspired moment this morning. Apparently. :)
> Where are you, Rebecca? I'd like to meet you the next time I come homeI'm on Vancouver Island (the south end). Feel free to let me know if you plan to be in the neighbourhood as there are other RU folks in the vicinity. It would be lovely to get together.
> to Vancouver, if you're there!
:) Rebecca
Pam Sorooshian
> It simply means that children are treated respectfully, gently, andThose words are sweet, but mostly too vague for conveying what radical
> with kindness at all times.
unschoolers do that is different than any other respectul, gentle, and
kind parents.
Conventional parents usually don't think they are being disrespectful or
unkind, and they often think they are using only gentle punishments,
referred to as "natural" or "logical" consequences.
What do radical unschoolers do that is different?
First, it is "Parenting with Interpersonal Intelligence." I think it is
all about having a clear idea in our own heads, as parents, of what our
interactions with our children mean TO THEM, from their point of view.
Parents send their kids to their room to, "Think it over," or give them
some kind of punishment to get them to, "Think about what you did." But
what are the kids most likely thinking? "She's so mean." "She doesn't
understand." "She's not fair." "She didn't listen to me." "She doesn't
care." "I HATE her." "I'll never treat MY children like this."
When we are more able to think from our kids' point of view, we are more
able to figure out what we can do that will really help a situation. It
makes a huge difference in what choices we make, as parents.
Second - most people are completely and totally and thoroughly
brainwashed by the whole Skinnerian behaviorist approach to "training"
children. When a child is, for example, lashing out at a sibling, that
is a child who needs a parent to help him work through some kind of
problem. But most parents think that any show of sympathy will be
perceived as a reward by the child for his misbehavior and will
condition him to do more and more of it.
It is very hard to get out of that mindset - but children are not circus
animals, to be trained with reward and punishment. Unschoolers drop
that "trained animal" paradigm - and that is a HUGE huge gigantic big
change that requires us to re-examine every aspect of parenting - and to
treat our children like real human beings, with complex needs and
interests.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca M.
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I'd actually run out of room in the comment. I'd used up all my characters and was trying to keep things short. As well as sweet. :)
I had thought about commenting on my comment but didn't want to wear out my welcome. Your words here help me clarify my thinking.
"Other parents have "rules" but really use them as guidelines for their children's behaviour rather than opportunities to be authoritarian or punitive. They may, however, think "natural" or "logical" consequences are a fair way to deal with a child's behaviour, not realizing that those are often punitive in their own right. eg) a child forgets his lunch and goes hungry as a result... a "natural" consequence; or a child leaves his Lego on the floor for a week, so it gets piled in a bag and put on the top shelf in the closet ... a "logical" consequence that takes away something the child cares deeply about."
That "however" I added in front of natural and logical consequences seems small but it really needed to be there the first time around. Most parents simply don't understand that there are choices. Their intentions are good but fall short because they read the conventional parenting material that is most readily available, not realizing that it's just a variation on a theme (punitive).
After I graduated with my first degree, I worked in a behavioural residential program. There was even a token economy and it was "lock-up". The "clientele" were mostly street kids who were there by court order (at high risk for harming themselves or others) and did not respond well to the "point system". Some of the child care workers were stuck on the point card (very behavioural), giving points for conforming to the rules and taking away points for asserting independence, and the kids hated them (the workers). Other child care workers stuck the point card in their back pocket for the shift and gave a lump sum at the end of the day. These were the workers that the kids loved and responded to. Not because of the lump sum (which they got to spend in the "store"). Because of the relationship because that is how these folks worked with the kids (and I learned a great deal from them).
That is the piece that I really wanted to add in there. It's all about relationship. That's what principles support. Not good behaviour. Good, solid, loving, unconditional relationships. When relationships are in order, the behaviour follows because people feel supported, understood, valued, and the list goes on.
The difference is that radical unschoolers have examined their own "schooled" perspectives, deschooled their thinking (about learning and about relationships) and have moved into an integrated living/learning lifestyle with their children. I was going to use the word "integrity" but scared myself a little. However, I think that's true. It is about integrity in that we live our beliefs in all areas of our lives.
It was what I meant to be heading toward when I spoke of "getting to the root of the problem" rather than just seeing is as problem behaviour.
Sometimes I wish someone had locked Skinner in his own box for an afternoon. Behaviourism set our whole society back several paces when people started to apply the theories to real live children (and adults) without accounting for the complexity of being human.
I do think things are shifting. This afternoon I was reflecting on how the trend toward attachment parenting (and all that entails) may be setting the stage for more people to be drawn toward unschooling and that this may mean that they actually "get it" sooner than people have in the past. I have no idea if that's true, but I think it might be nice it was.
- Rebecca
> > It simply means that children are treated respectfully, gently, andI agree, Pam.
> > with kindness at all times.
>
> Those words are sweet, but mostly too vague for conveying what radical
> unschoolers do that is different than any other respectul, gentle, and
> kind parents.
I'd actually run out of room in the comment. I'd used up all my characters and was trying to keep things short. As well as sweet. :)
I had thought about commenting on my comment but didn't want to wear out my welcome. Your words here help me clarify my thinking.
> Conventional parents usually don't think they are being disrespectful orI revised it a teeny bit for my own blog and made sure that this part read as:
> unkind, and they often think they are using only gentle punishments,
> referred to as "natural" or "logical" consequences.
"Other parents have "rules" but really use them as guidelines for their children's behaviour rather than opportunities to be authoritarian or punitive. They may, however, think "natural" or "logical" consequences are a fair way to deal with a child's behaviour, not realizing that those are often punitive in their own right. eg) a child forgets his lunch and goes hungry as a result... a "natural" consequence; or a child leaves his Lego on the floor for a week, so it gets piled in a bag and put on the top shelf in the closet ... a "logical" consequence that takes away something the child cares deeply about."
That "however" I added in front of natural and logical consequences seems small but it really needed to be there the first time around. Most parents simply don't understand that there are choices. Their intentions are good but fall short because they read the conventional parenting material that is most readily available, not realizing that it's just a variation on a theme (punitive).
After I graduated with my first degree, I worked in a behavioural residential program. There was even a token economy and it was "lock-up". The "clientele" were mostly street kids who were there by court order (at high risk for harming themselves or others) and did not respond well to the "point system". Some of the child care workers were stuck on the point card (very behavioural), giving points for conforming to the rules and taking away points for asserting independence, and the kids hated them (the workers). Other child care workers stuck the point card in their back pocket for the shift and gave a lump sum at the end of the day. These were the workers that the kids loved and responded to. Not because of the lump sum (which they got to spend in the "store"). Because of the relationship because that is how these folks worked with the kids (and I learned a great deal from them).
That is the piece that I really wanted to add in there. It's all about relationship. That's what principles support. Not good behaviour. Good, solid, loving, unconditional relationships. When relationships are in order, the behaviour follows because people feel supported, understood, valued, and the list goes on.
> I think it isI do think there are people out there who aren't unschoolers who parent this way or who want to parent this way. However, they break trust with their children every single day they send them to school. When I was a school counsellor (a couple of degrees and several years later), I spent a good deal of my time (when not dealing with "behaviour problems") helping children and parents with school refusal. I often recommended homeschooling (to the chagrin of my principals) when a child was so clearly devastated by the separation with the parent. The parents were so relieved that someone didn't think it was a problem that their child didn't want to separate (they had been blamed so often for being too enmeshed) - they didn't want to either but thought they "had to" (another bi-product of going through the school system ourselves).
> all about having a clear idea in our own heads, as parents, of what our
> interactions with our children mean TO THEM, from their point of view.
The difference is that radical unschoolers have examined their own "schooled" perspectives, deschooled their thinking (about learning and about relationships) and have moved into an integrated living/learning lifestyle with their children. I was going to use the word "integrity" but scared myself a little. However, I think that's true. It is about integrity in that we live our beliefs in all areas of our lives.
> When we are more able to think from our kids' point of view, we are moreYes... seeing things through the eyes of our child. True empathy. Those things need to be in there as well.
> able to figure out what we can do that will really help a situation. It
> makes a huge difference in what choices we make, as parents.
It was what I meant to be heading toward when I spoke of "getting to the root of the problem" rather than just seeing is as problem behaviour.
> But most parents think that any show of sympathy will beI know! And how far from the truth!
> perceived as a reward by the child for his misbehavior and will
> condition him to do more and more of it.
Sometimes I wish someone had locked Skinner in his own box for an afternoon. Behaviourism set our whole society back several paces when people started to apply the theories to real live children (and adults) without accounting for the complexity of being human.
I do think things are shifting. This afternoon I was reflecting on how the trend toward attachment parenting (and all that entails) may be setting the stage for more people to be drawn toward unschooling and that this may mean that they actually "get it" sooner than people have in the past. I have no idea if that's true, but I think it might be nice it was.
- Rebecca