Seeing the difference between us and them
Sandra Dodd
MadameMim said...
I think it would depend on the child. I would love to do
unschooling...if my little one would cooperate. This would maybe work
a little better if your child has been in school for a few years and
has started developing interests.
However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult...
------------------------------------------------------
I'm not hesitating today to say "us and them" because I'm really tired
of "them" this week.
With each year I move away from school life and into real life without
school, the more shocked I am at how dismissive and derisive people
can be about children. And their OWN children.
My response was that it was impossible to refer to any on as "an
unmotivated, lazy little thing" without being deeply mean.
http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html
Anyone with any energy left this week to try to change the world might
want to put in a word.
All week I never went to the ABC/Good Morning America comments. I
figured that would just be too much. There are over 100 comments some
places (the link above has 89); I'm afraid GMA's site would have
hundreds.
I didn't say I was sure that anyone who had unschooled for even just
one year would not refer to ANYone as "an unmotivated, lazy little
thing." I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here
with people who have been moving steadily away from such negativity.
I didn't realize how far I had gone until this week.
Sandra
I think it would depend on the child. I would love to do
unschooling...if my little one would cooperate. This would maybe work
a little better if your child has been in school for a few years and
has started developing interests.
However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult...
------------------------------------------------------
I'm not hesitating today to say "us and them" because I'm really tired
of "them" this week.
With each year I move away from school life and into real life without
school, the more shocked I am at how dismissive and derisive people
can be about children. And their OWN children.
My response was that it was impossible to refer to any on as "an
unmotivated, lazy little thing" without being deeply mean.
http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html
Anyone with any energy left this week to try to change the world might
want to put in a word.
All week I never went to the ABC/Good Morning America comments. I
figured that would just be too much. There are over 100 comments some
places (the link above has 89); I'm afraid GMA's site would have
hundreds.
I didn't say I was sure that anyone who had unschooled for even just
one year would not refer to ANYone as "an unmotivated, lazy little
thing." I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here
with people who have been moving steadily away from such negativity.
I didn't realize how far I had gone until this week.
Sandra
seccotine_ch
=== I didn't say I was sure that anyone who had unschooled for even just one year would not refer to ANYone as "an unmotivated, lazy little thing." ===
One of my teachers at University, whose field is special education and motivation issues, says that it is WRONG to say : This kid is unmotivated.
She says that kids are ALWAYS motivated by something. The problem for the teacher might be that the kid is not motivated by hearing her or doing what she wants him to do - or at least more motivated by doing something else, which appears more interesting/appealing (or less frightening/endangering).
So we should say : this kid is not motivated by what I'm proposing to her or asking her to do.
I really like this.
=== I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here with people who have been moving steadily away from such negativity. I didn't realize how far I had gone until this week. ===
I've spent some time reading all the comments here and there and the reactions in various blogs and sites. I have been sadly surprised by the incredible negativity and defensiveness (?)of so many people, but even more by the fact that people are incredibly not curious. Aren't they willing to change their mind, or at least to learn something new, something unusual ? No. They know better, period.
It is a bit similar here, though it is extended to the whole idea of homeschooling, because homeschooling isn't very common (they have trouble accepting a life without GOING to school, I guess they can't even imagine one without DOING school).
I would just add something, though : in these comments and forums, there is always a selection bias. For 100 people who answer, there are so many more who read, and, hopefully, want to know more and go to unschooling blogs and sites. Some of them will think about their choices and maybe change them, for a happier and more joyful life. Who knows ?
Kindest regards from the other shore of the Puddle :)
Helen, from Geneva Switzerland, unschooling mom of Sylvain, Cyrielle, Circé et Valérian
One of my teachers at University, whose field is special education and motivation issues, says that it is WRONG to say : This kid is unmotivated.
She says that kids are ALWAYS motivated by something. The problem for the teacher might be that the kid is not motivated by hearing her or doing what she wants him to do - or at least more motivated by doing something else, which appears more interesting/appealing (or less frightening/endangering).
So we should say : this kid is not motivated by what I'm proposing to her or asking her to do.
I really like this.
=== I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here with people who have been moving steadily away from such negativity. I didn't realize how far I had gone until this week. ===
I've spent some time reading all the comments here and there and the reactions in various blogs and sites. I have been sadly surprised by the incredible negativity and defensiveness (?)of so many people, but even more by the fact that people are incredibly not curious. Aren't they willing to change their mind, or at least to learn something new, something unusual ? No. They know better, period.
It is a bit similar here, though it is extended to the whole idea of homeschooling, because homeschooling isn't very common (they have trouble accepting a life without GOING to school, I guess they can't even imagine one without DOING school).
I would just add something, though : in these comments and forums, there is always a selection bias. For 100 people who answer, there are so many more who read, and, hopefully, want to know more and go to unschooling blogs and sites. Some of them will think about their choices and maybe change them, for a happier and more joyful life. Who knows ?
Kindest regards from the other shore of the Puddle :)
Helen, from Geneva Switzerland, unschooling mom of Sylvain, Cyrielle, Circé et Valérian
k
>>>I have been sadly surprised by the incredible negativity and defensiveness (?)of so many people, but even more by the fact that people are incredibly not curious.<<<A neat thing tho. I've had several people on my Facebook friend list
who have never heard of unschooling.
Some were dismissive "outloud" so to speak on my wall, some real life
friends and in particular I am remembering a former test adminstrator.
So you can imagine. Pffft! on both sides. I didn't try to hard to tell
them like it is. Unschooling is not what they are thinking, and I'm
not motivated by their remarks to change how someone thinks. Since it
is my wall, I figure I get to keep posting what I wish without
reference to what others think.
I'm not motivated to changing my thinking about unschooling for people
who don't know diddly about it. > ^.^ < Oh I like that phrasing too,
Helen. It's kind of fun.
Some have been very interested and have sent me messages on the side
about it as well as commented about their interest. Some aren't even
parents yet. So that's nice. They got to hear of it first from me.
~Katherine
On 4/23/10, seccotine_ch <seccotine@...> wrote:
> === I didn't say I was sure that anyone who had unschooled for even just one
> year would not refer to ANYone as "an unmotivated, lazy little thing." ===
>
> One of my teachers at University, whose field is special education and
> motivation issues, says that it is WRONG to say : This kid is unmotivated.
>
> She says that kids are ALWAYS motivated by something. The problem for the
> teacher might be that the kid is not motivated by hearing her or doing what
> she wants him to do - or at least more motivated by doing something else,
> which appears more interesting/appealing (or less frightening/endangering).
>
> So we should say : this kid is not motivated by what I'm proposing to her or
> asking her to do.
>
> I really like this.
>
> === I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here with people
> who have been moving steadily away from such negativity. I didn't realize
> how far I had gone until this week. ===
>
> I've spent some time reading all the comments here and there and the
> reactions in various blogs and sites. I have been sadly surprised by the
> incredible negativity and defensiveness (?)of so many people, but even more
> by the fact that people are incredibly not curious. Aren't they willing to
> change their mind, or at least to learn something new, something unusual ?
> No. They know better, period.
>
> It is a bit similar here, though it is extended to the whole idea of
> homeschooling, because homeschooling isn't very common (they have trouble
> accepting a life without GOING to school, I guess they can't even imagine
> one without DOING school).
>
> I would just add something, though : in these comments and forums, there is
> always a selection bias. For 100 people who answer, there are so many more
> who read, and, hopefully, want to know more and go to unschooling blogs and
> sites. Some of them will think about their choices and maybe change them,
> for a happier and more joyful life. Who knows ?
>
> Kindest regards from the other shore of the Puddle :)
>
> Helen, from Geneva Switzerland, unschooling mom of Sylvain, Cyrielle, Circé
> et Valérian
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
keetry
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Alysia
>I don't know how you can keep up the energy to continue combating this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.
> MadameMim said...
> I think it would depend on the child. I would love to do
> unschooling...if my little one would cooperate. This would maybe work
> a little better if your child has been in school for a few years and
> has started developing interests.
>
> However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
> mean), it could be difficult...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> I'm not hesitating today to say "us and them" because I'm really tired
> of "them" this week.
>
> With each year I move away from school life and into real life without
> school, the more shocked I am at how dismissive and derisive people
> can be about children. And their OWN children.
>
> My response was that it was impossible to refer to any on as "an
> unmotivated, lazy little thing" without being deeply mean.
>
> http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html
>
> Anyone with any energy left this week to try to change the world might
> want to put in a word.
>
> All week I never went to the ABC/Good Morning America comments. I
> figured that would just be too much. There are over 100 comments some
> places (the link above has 89); I'm afraid GMA's site would have
> hundreds.
>
>
>
> I didn't say I was sure that anyone who had unschooled for even just
> one year would not refer to ANYone as "an unmotivated, lazy little
> thing." I thought it, but figured I would share the contrast here
> with people who have been moving steadily away from such negativity.
> I didn't realize how far I had gone until this week.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
Alysia
SeckingerHomeschool
<<I didn't try to hard to tell
them like it is.>>
I wish I'd used that same restraint rather than battle with the ignorant. I'm learning, from this list, how to deal with adults moreso than how to live within our own happy family. Many thanks for that!
Deena in GA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them like it is.>>
I wish I'd used that same restraint rather than battle with the ignorant. I'm learning, from this list, how to deal with adults moreso than how to live within our own happy family. Many thanks for that!
Deena in GA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't know how you can keep up the energy to continue combating
this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.-=-
It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.
I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to
get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some
Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.-=-
It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.
I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to
get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some
Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
I really don't see how being in school for a few years FIRST can possibly help a child develop interests.
I was really offended by: "However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult..." All I could think of is "WOW I feel so sorry for her kid"
What she said and thinks about her own child IS mean - no way around it. I'm thinking her child is fairly young as she called the child "my little one". And "if my little one would cooperate" means she still thinks she would be in charge all the time - the controller and the child the cooperator.
This reminds me of a friend of mine that has a very mean mother - She says mean things to my friend about her personally and then says "Well, if I don't tell you like it is, who will?" Trying to make it sound like she is not being mean - but she IS!!!!
Lisa W.
MadameMim said...
I think it would depend on the child. I would love to do
unschooling...if my little one would cooperate. This would maybe work
a little better if your child has been in school for a few years and
has started developing interests.
However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was really offended by: "However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult..." All I could think of is "WOW I feel so sorry for her kid"
What she said and thinks about her own child IS mean - no way around it. I'm thinking her child is fairly young as she called the child "my little one". And "if my little one would cooperate" means she still thinks she would be in charge all the time - the controller and the child the cooperator.
This reminds me of a friend of mine that has a very mean mother - She says mean things to my friend about her personally and then says "Well, if I don't tell you like it is, who will?" Trying to make it sound like she is not being mean - but she IS!!!!
Lisa W.
MadameMim said...
I think it would depend on the child. I would love to do
unschooling...if my little one would cooperate. This would maybe work
a little better if your child has been in school for a few years and
has started developing interests.
However, if a child is an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being
mean), it could be difficult...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===My response was that it was impossible to refer to any on as "an unmotivated, lazy little thing" without being deeply mean. http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html. Anyone with any energy left this week to try to change the world might want to put in a word.===
I appreciate you commenting over there, Sandra, and other unschoolers who have too. It's a blog I regularly read and I respect all that she does in the environmental community, but because of the usual focus of that blog (environmental issues) it's not really the venue for a discussion about school. Perhaps I should ask her when she's going to do a post entitled, "Public School - What Do You Think?" [bwg].
Another commentor said some mean things about her own kids. When I quoted what she (I'm assuming the commentor is a she) said about her kids and then said, well then, unschooling wouldn't be a good choice for your family, she got pissy and said it was unfair of me to say that. So she was either being flippant and thought what she said about her kids was funny in that "I'm bitching about my kids" way (which is NEVER funny), or she meant it and is defensive about having been called on it. Either way, the things she said about her kids were mean, and was a huge reminder to me that I don't think like "them" or disrespect my child like "them" -- and I'm so very glad that I don't.
It was very nice to be in the unschooling chat today and just let all the unschooling-friendliness and the general people-friendliness wash over me.
Glenda
I appreciate you commenting over there, Sandra, and other unschoolers who have too. It's a blog I regularly read and I respect all that she does in the environmental community, but because of the usual focus of that blog (environmental issues) it's not really the venue for a discussion about school. Perhaps I should ask her when she's going to do a post entitled, "Public School - What Do You Think?" [bwg].
Another commentor said some mean things about her own kids. When I quoted what she (I'm assuming the commentor is a she) said about her kids and then said, well then, unschooling wouldn't be a good choice for your family, she got pissy and said it was unfair of me to say that. So she was either being flippant and thought what she said about her kids was funny in that "I'm bitching about my kids" way (which is NEVER funny), or she meant it and is defensive about having been called on it. Either way, the things she said about her kids were mean, and was a huge reminder to me that I don't think like "them" or disrespect my child like "them" -- and I'm so very glad that I don't.
It was very nice to be in the unschooling chat today and just let all the unschooling-friendliness and the general people-friendliness wash over me.
Glenda
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/23/2010 3:25 PM, seccotine_ch wrote:
list) saw GMA and asked some really straightforward, practical questions
about radical unschooling - a few others chimed in. They seemed sort of
disbelieving, but genuinely interested. At one point in the very lengthy
discussion, the original person said that she couldn't really imagine
giving up rules and punishments, but that the discussion had made her
realize that she could do a lot more "heading off" problems by thinking
more creatively. I got the feeling from that discussion that a lot of
people felt the same way - they didn't really want to jump into radical
unschooling, but they felt they could be better parents by incorporating
some of our ideas.
So - I think that was nice. We certainly weren't dismissed out of hand
as wackos. At least.
-pam
> I've spent some time reading all the comments here and there and theTo offer some encouragement - someone on the HSC list (California state
> reactions in various blogs and sites. I have been sadly surprised by
> the incredible negativity and defensiveness (?)of so many people, but
> even more by the fact that people are incredibly not curious. Aren't
> they willing to change their mind, or at least to learn something new,
> something unusual ? No. They know better, period.
list) saw GMA and asked some really straightforward, practical questions
about radical unschooling - a few others chimed in. They seemed sort of
disbelieving, but genuinely interested. At one point in the very lengthy
discussion, the original person said that she couldn't really imagine
giving up rules and punishments, but that the discussion had made her
realize that she could do a lot more "heading off" problems by thinking
more creatively. I got the feeling from that discussion that a lot of
people felt the same way - they didn't really want to jump into radical
unschooling, but they felt they could be better parents by incorporating
some of our ideas.
So - I think that was nice. We certainly weren't dismissed out of hand
as wackos. At least.
-pam
Josh Moll
That's a lovely dialogue, that's being concerned and caring.
Good that you're safely home again.
You have my thanks for still speaking up about unschooling, otherwise I would not be unschooling happily now.
Josh
http://thuisschool.wordpress.com/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 2:14:10 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Seeing the difference between us and them
-=-I don't know how you can keep up the energy to continue combating
this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.-=-
It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.
I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to
get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some
Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good that you're safely home again.
You have my thanks for still speaking up about unschooling, otherwise I would not be unschooling happily now.
Josh
http://thuisschool.wordpress.com/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 2:14:10 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Seeing the difference between us and them
-=-I don't know how you can keep up the energy to continue combating
this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.-=-
It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.
I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to
get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some
Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.That's the difference, huh? Just like everything else. It's all in how you look at it. Coming at it from the point of view that you are getting info out to someone who IS curious and interested rather than just arguing with the ignorant fool who's saying nasty things makes it easier to keep going.
>
> I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
> undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
> comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
> kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
>
> There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
> if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
Alysia
Rebecca M.
--- Pam Sorooshian wrote:
There are many loving, caring parents out there who haven't let their babies "cry it out" and who have big hearts for their children, but maybe haven't stumbled onto the alternatives for school.
If any of them watched either the 2nd ABC piece (the 1st one was a train wreck - I can't see anything redeeming about it) or the CCN interview, then perhaps they are now ready to begin an unschooling journey with their children that they may have missed otherwise.
I owe a lot to a couple of RU friends of mine who have always unschooled their children. If I hadn't seen their lives in action, we still might be stuck in old ways of doing things. Even though we started off attachment parenting and our child has never been to school, we didn't naturally RU. I needed to see it and hear about it and know about it.
- Rebecca (who ended up talking about RU with her massage therapist (RMT) this week during her treatment... turns out the RMT wants to homeschool)
>**At one point in the very lengthyThat's fantastic. And encouraging.
> discussion, the original person said that she couldn't really imagine
> giving up rules and punishments, but that the discussion had made her
> realize that she could do a lot more "heading off" problems by thinking
> more creatively. I got the feeling from that discussion that a lot of
> people felt the same way - they didn't really want to jump into radical
> unschooling, but they felt they could be better parents by incorporating
> some of our ideas.**
There are many loving, caring parents out there who haven't let their babies "cry it out" and who have big hearts for their children, but maybe haven't stumbled onto the alternatives for school.
If any of them watched either the 2nd ABC piece (the 1st one was a train wreck - I can't see anything redeeming about it) or the CCN interview, then perhaps they are now ready to begin an unschooling journey with their children that they may have missed otherwise.
I owe a lot to a couple of RU friends of mine who have always unschooled their children. If I hadn't seen their lives in action, we still might be stuck in old ways of doing things. Even though we started off attachment parenting and our child has never been to school, we didn't naturally RU. I needed to see it and hear about it and know about it.
- Rebecca (who ended up talking about RU with her massage therapist (RMT) this week during her treatment... turns out the RMT wants to homeschool)
Rebecca M.
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Min is still looking for "school at home" where the child is asked to do things ("academic") and the child does do things she is asked, even if she doesn't want to.
Yes. There is an Us. And there is a Them.
You were firm in your clarification, you kept it clean, and you patiently set the record straight - time and time and time again.
- Rebecca
> MadameMin wrote: **I would love to doI laughed when I read that. Clearly, MM doesn't really get how kids work at all. Or unschooling (hasn't bothered, I imagine... not sure what she was doing when she was supposed to be reading the interview... maybe she skipped straight to the comments).
> unschooling...if my little one would cooperate.**
Min is still looking for "school at home" where the child is asked to do things ("academic") and the child does do things she is asked, even if she doesn't want to.
> MadameMin also wrote: **However, if a child isAgain, clearly someone who doesn't understand children... I have never been able to understand how someone who loves their child can say things like the above - about any child. Sure, sometimes in moments of extreme frustration, even the most loving parent may say something they later regret (and apologize for and then make restitution for to rebuild trust). But to be so casual about it because it's a real belief...
>an unmotivated, lazy little thing (not being mean),
>it could be difficult...**
Yes. There is an Us. And there is a Them.
> **My response was that it was impossible to refer to any on as "anI loved your response, Sandra. I loved all your responses in the comments.
> unmotivated, lazy little thing" without being deeply mean.**
You were firm in your clarification, you kept it clean, and you patiently set the record straight - time and time and time again.
- Rebecca
Sandra Dodd
-=-You have my thanks for still speaking up about unschooling,
otherwise I would not be unschooling happily now.-=-
Thanks, Josh.
I had a nice evening last night. Talked to Holly by Skype, Kirby by
phone (in the middle of the night, but he was fine, and that's a
different story) and slept well between awakenings.
Today I'm feeling less stressed, but I wake up and the differences are
still there. One blogger who started off insulting unschoolers,
though politely, has said that the blog comments are now starting to
"turn her off." Oh. I can't find it in my heart to feel bad.
=============
Crunchy Chicken has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what
do you think?":
I can appreciate the frustration unschoolers have been dealing with
the last week or so on other forums, but bringing that defensiveness
to this post doesn't help the discussion here.
If you take issue with specific comments, please address them, but the
majority of us here are interested in what you have to say and are
fairly open-minded.
But I, for one, am starting to get turned off from the insults and
occasional self-righteousness. I hope this isn't representative of the
unschooling community.
================
Sandra Dodd has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what do
you think?":
Again, the unschoolers are being criticized for defending their
families and children. What we've done isn't easy. It would be way
easier to put the kids in school and copy what the neighbors do.
We're criticized not only by the general public, but by school-at-
homers. We get used to criticism. But there IS a cumulative effect. A
question that's okay the first five times and irritating the next ten
can be infuriating the hundredth time. And when it's put in the form
of a strong statement in the probably-to-assuredly range, it seems
unfair to complain when those who have been disparaged respond.
-=-I really like the theory behind unschooling, but I don't believe
that children would learn everything that I personally think is
important to be able to make certain life choices later. In other
words, it doesn't provide them with the toolset to do certain things
as an adult-=-
Although that is more politely worded than some of the other
criticisms flying this week, it's the same thing. It says we're
neglecting our children and don't care whether they'll be able to live
in the world as an adult.
It's not true. Should be be allowed to detail why we know it can work,
or would the polite thing to do be to say "Perhaps you're right" for
the sake of peace on a blog page?
====================
It's up to 102 comments, but she started it! :-) (I know, I'm at
the "she started it" emotion, but that's progress from Wednesday or so
of this week.)
http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherwise I would not be unschooling happily now.-=-
Thanks, Josh.
I had a nice evening last night. Talked to Holly by Skype, Kirby by
phone (in the middle of the night, but he was fine, and that's a
different story) and slept well between awakenings.
Today I'm feeling less stressed, but I wake up and the differences are
still there. One blogger who started off insulting unschoolers,
though politely, has said that the blog comments are now starting to
"turn her off." Oh. I can't find it in my heart to feel bad.
=============
Crunchy Chicken has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what
do you think?":
I can appreciate the frustration unschoolers have been dealing with
the last week or so on other forums, but bringing that defensiveness
to this post doesn't help the discussion here.
If you take issue with specific comments, please address them, but the
majority of us here are interested in what you have to say and are
fairly open-minded.
But I, for one, am starting to get turned off from the insults and
occasional self-righteousness. I hope this isn't representative of the
unschooling community.
================
Sandra Dodd has left a new comment on the post "Unschooling - what do
you think?":
Again, the unschoolers are being criticized for defending their
families and children. What we've done isn't easy. It would be way
easier to put the kids in school and copy what the neighbors do.
We're criticized not only by the general public, but by school-at-
homers. We get used to criticism. But there IS a cumulative effect. A
question that's okay the first five times and irritating the next ten
can be infuriating the hundredth time. And when it's put in the form
of a strong statement in the probably-to-assuredly range, it seems
unfair to complain when those who have been disparaged respond.
-=-I really like the theory behind unschooling, but I don't believe
that children would learn everything that I personally think is
important to be able to make certain life choices later. In other
words, it doesn't provide them with the toolset to do certain things
as an adult-=-
Although that is more politely worded than some of the other
criticisms flying this week, it's the same thing. It says we're
neglecting our children and don't care whether they'll be able to live
in the world as an adult.
It's not true. Should be be allowed to detail why we know it can work,
or would the polite thing to do be to say "Perhaps you're right" for
the sake of peace on a blog page?
====================
It's up to 102 comments, but she started it! :-) (I know, I'm at
the "she started it" emotion, but that's progress from Wednesday or so
of this week.)
http://www.thecrunchychicken.com/2010/04/unschooling-what-do-you-think.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
The fact that unschoolers CAN answer objections about unschooling is
encouraging to people who are mightily attracted to the idea but can't
picture themselves answering real life opposition to what they could
be, would rather be, doing. They want to do the very best, and school
ain't it. They know that.
So when unschoolers dive in and talk about the logistics (as they're
asked) it's important for people who aren't sure it would fit their
schedules or that they could fit into such loose schedule flexibility.
And on TOP of that, to know that unschoolers haven't checked out, they
are paying attention to why and how they unschool their children, that
they HAVE found ways to deal with the jealousy about what looks like
"too" easy of a life, that the reality of MORE intense parenting is
doable.... all these things are what people who are interested (but
maybe not asking about it or posting comments) want to know.
Hecklers and trolls are weak versions of real life pirates, and they
can't push down the appeal for unschooling. It's a jolly darn good
alternative. Ignoring such would-be detractions and saying what
unschooling really is only sharpens our skillz! lol The cranks are
only helping us so don't give up the "ship." Thank them! Shhhhh don't
tell them their objective isn't working.
Most people are not trying to heckle. They are curious and probably
quite a bit scandalized. ;)
This is to my mind very similar to the 60s when Allen Ginsberg and
others were talking about US culture and how they wanted to live very
differently. The detractors only ended up vaulting them to the
spotlight. That's certainly not a bad thing. I don't at all see
unschooling as that big (I might be wrong) but the way the GMA clip
went seems to be running along on the same principle.
~Katherine
________________________________
encouraging to people who are mightily attracted to the idea but can't
picture themselves answering real life opposition to what they could
be, would rather be, doing. They want to do the very best, and school
ain't it. They know that.
So when unschoolers dive in and talk about the logistics (as they're
asked) it's important for people who aren't sure it would fit their
schedules or that they could fit into such loose schedule flexibility.
And on TOP of that, to know that unschoolers haven't checked out, they
are paying attention to why and how they unschool their children, that
they HAVE found ways to deal with the jealousy about what looks like
"too" easy of a life, that the reality of MORE intense parenting is
doable.... all these things are what people who are interested (but
maybe not asking about it or posting comments) want to know.
Hecklers and trolls are weak versions of real life pirates, and they
can't push down the appeal for unschooling. It's a jolly darn good
alternative. Ignoring such would-be detractions and saying what
unschooling really is only sharpens our skillz! lol The cranks are
only helping us so don't give up the "ship." Thank them! Shhhhh don't
tell them their objective isn't working.
Most people are not trying to heckle. They are curious and probably
quite a bit scandalized. ;)
This is to my mind very similar to the 60s when Allen Ginsberg and
others were talking about US culture and how they wanted to live very
differently. The detractors only ended up vaulting them to the
spotlight. That's certainly not a bad thing. I don't at all see
unschooling as that big (I might be wrong) but the way the GMA clip
went seems to be running along on the same principle.
~Katherine
________________________________
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 2:14:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Seeing the difference between us and them
>
>
> -=-I don't know how you can keep up the energy to continue combating
> this sort of thing. I get fed up so quickly.-=-
>
> It's not that I'm not fed up; I am.
>
> I don't see it as combating the crap. I see it as point out for those
> undecided readers that unschoolers HAVE thought of all those lame
> comebacks, that we've heard them before, and that they're thoughtless
> kneejerk quotes from other thoughtless kneejerk conversations.
>
> There are people reading those exchanges who will unschool next year,
> if not next week, because they read what I wrote.
>
> And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to
> get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some
> Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
>
> "Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
>
> "Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
> that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
> breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
> I enjoy seeing.
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is to my mind very similar to the 60s when Allen Ginsberg and
others were talking about US culture and how they wanted to live very
differently. The detractors only ended up vaulting them to the
spotlight. That's certainly not a bad thing. I don't at all see
unschooling as that big (I might be wrong) but the way the GMA clip
went seems to be running along on the same principle.-=-
Very good point, Katherine. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
others were talking about US culture and how they wanted to live very
differently. The detractors only ended up vaulting them to the
spotlight. That's certainly not a bad thing. I don't at all see
unschooling as that big (I might be wrong) but the way the GMA clip
went seems to be running along on the same principle.-=-
Very good point, Katherine. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
Excuse my ignorance, but what language is that on your blog? I'm fascinated with the fact that there are ever increasing unschoolers in Europe! http://thuisschool. wordpress. com/
If you ever care to share, add your perspective of unschooling from another country! I really love that sort of thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you ever care to share, add your perspective of unschooling from another country! I really love that sort of thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Josh Moll
I'm Dutch. From the Netherlands... And unschooling happily.
and learning more from all of you. Thanks,
Josh (mama of big son, 17 and Alma, 8)
http://thuisschool.wordpress.com/
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 7:38:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Seeing the difference between us and them
Excuse my ignorance, but what language is that on your blog? I'm fascinated with the fact that there are ever increasing unschoolers in Europe! http://thuisschool. wordpress. com/
If you ever care to share, add your perspective of unschooling from another country! I really love that sort of thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and learning more from all of you. Thanks,
Josh (mama of big son, 17 and Alma, 8)
http://thuisschool.wordpress.com/
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 7:38:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Seeing the difference between us and them
Excuse my ignorance, but what language is that on your blog? I'm fascinated with the fact that there are ever increasing unschoolers in Europe! http://thuisschool. wordpress. com/
If you ever care to share, add your perspective of unschooling from another country! I really love that sort of thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
Netherlands and Dutch was my first guess based on what I saw in word structure, which I know very little about, but I have more than a few German friends and it seemed similar, but I knew it wasn't German!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DaBreeze21
-=-And I'm really tired. Keith knew that. When I was leaving at 5:45 to get to the post office before 6:00 to mail three books and some Thinking Sticks, he said "be aware."
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra-=-
Sandra-
I was on vacation last week with my husband, kids, and parents. I've been catching up on reading because I basically didn't check my email for a week.
This morning I'm reading and this made me tear up. It was really sweet. I don't know how you do it either - do you think about taking a break? I don't want you to, but just wondering for your own mental/physical health if you think about it.
But just wanted to add my thanks (again) to the pile already out there. *YOU* are a voice in my head now, and a significant one. How amazing is that? I'm sure you are a positive voice in many people's heads - people who have never met you.
It stings me to read the comments that people make about unschooling and I am not even at the start gate yet (DD almost 4, DS 9 mos). After reading here for over two years and thinking and trying out ideas that I've learned, unschooling and all that goes along with it seems so natural and right. I forget that most of the world doesn't see it that way.
Anyways, back to catching up. I can't delete a single email from this list without reading it!
Susan
"Of what?" I said as though I didn't know what he meant.
"Of everything. Be cautious and quick," or something sweet like
that. I was extra careful. Didn't even listen to the radio, I just
breathed and looked at the beautiful clouds and the familiar buildings
I enjoy seeing.
Sandra-=-
Sandra-
I was on vacation last week with my husband, kids, and parents. I've been catching up on reading because I basically didn't check my email for a week.
This morning I'm reading and this made me tear up. It was really sweet. I don't know how you do it either - do you think about taking a break? I don't want you to, but just wondering for your own mental/physical health if you think about it.
But just wanted to add my thanks (again) to the pile already out there. *YOU* are a voice in my head now, and a significant one. How amazing is that? I'm sure you are a positive voice in many people's heads - people who have never met you.
It stings me to read the comments that people make about unschooling and I am not even at the start gate yet (DD almost 4, DS 9 mos). After reading here for over two years and thinking and trying out ideas that I've learned, unschooling and all that goes along with it seems so natural and right. I forget that most of the world doesn't see it that way.
Anyways, back to catching up. I can't delete a single email from this list without reading it!
Susan