troubadour4me

Lukas is now 8 and a half. Bright,clever and funny!
He loves singing and dancing and is so witty!
and a whole lot more good stuff but i am here because i need help, I guess with helping him respect others stuff.
I am thinking what i am doing or not doing for him that this keeps happening.
most of my stuff gets broken,gone into or moved on a daily basis reguardless of the "this is private,please ask first" talks we have had.
We told him that wallets and purses are private. Sometimes he will ask,mommy:can i look at your money or license or for coins in your purse? Most of the time,i say"sure" the times when i say no,he does what he wants anyway and goes in it. Sometimes he doesn't ask and i find my stuff scattered around the room.
I have my jewelery necklaces hanging on hooks in the back room and i told him that i don't want them touched or moved. Sometimes i will find him swinging a necklace around or it laying on the floor in the house somewhere.
Last night,everything seemed to be going okay,he was happy,I told him i was hungry and made a sandwich. He stayed at the kitchen table while i went into the family room(he hates bread,the smell...)I was on the chair watching t.v. and when i was done eating I walked back into the kitchen and he was picking apart all the clay off a vase i made. it was all over the floor!
He picked all the shells off a box i glued them on because he didn't like them on it.
I don't want to have to lock up all my stuff.
they are days that 2 or 3 of my things are broken.
okay,now your wondering,why can't he look at my jewelery or wear it? He can,I want him to ask first not take it and throw it somewhere. I offered and gave him some.
When he broke something, I said:come here! Why did you do that? He replies: I have no idea! and walks away.
so,I tried explaining to him that i am hurt and sad when he does it. He says: okay, I get it and leaves. But he doesn't really because it keeps happening. When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did.
Alot of times he thinks he can say he's sorry and all is okay. Last night instead of me saying" okay". I said: I want to know why you took the clay off the vase! He said his brain is telling him to do bad things,he can't help it. I told him maybe when he gets those thoughts to tell his brain to stop and ask why. He said okay.
was that a good thing to suggest?
What might be leading up to this stuff and what can can i do better?

Sandra Dodd

-=-okay,now your wondering,why can't he look at my jewelery or wear
it? He can,I want him to ask first not take it and throw it somewhere.
I offered and gave him some.-=-

No, I was wondering why it's not in a locked jewelry box if you have a
kid who messes with it.

Do you have other unschooling families you know who could advise you?
Who have seen your interactions and know your son and could give
suggestions based on what they see and know? That might help. It
might be something this list can't help with, because you've been
asking for many years, I think.

As I read your post I thought he sounded bored. And it sounds like
you're doing things that don't involve him.

I would say don't do pottery. Don't glue shells on anything. Wait
until he's older, or grown. Get out of the house with him. Find him
an engaging video game. Do you live where he can ride a bike?

If looking at what's in your purse or tearing something up is the most
interesting thing to do, he needs more to do.

Did he have his own clay to make something?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

evawitsel

I saw your son's name and it reminded me of a discussion I had read earlier this week on the radical unschoolers network forum. Are you the same mother that started this thread in 2008?: http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/2184370:Topic:33570

Maybe it will help you to look at those answers again, I thought they were very useful!

Eva

Berend (5) & Fiene (3)
from The Netherlands

troubadour4me

yup..that's me. I have been asking for years. What i do is try different solutions for months or longer and reflect,see what works but i don't have an answer yet. I keep asking..yes..I don't want to give up. I have no unschoolers near me. I tend to keep things to myself because there's mainstream comments when i share. Even with my dh..he says it's because he's not disclipined or spanked.
We are doing more with him. Dh took him to see 2 movies,we all went for one,there's been more going places,doing more.

--- In [email protected], "evawitsel" <evawitsel@...> wrote:
>
> I saw your son's name and it reminded me of a discussion I had read earlier this week on the radical unschoolers network forum. Are you the same mother that started this thread in 2008?: http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/2184370:Topic:33570
>
> Maybe it will help you to look at those answers again, I thought they were very useful!
>
> Eva
>
> Berend (5) & Fiene (3)
> from The Netherlands
>

Jenny Cyphers

***When he broke something, I said:come here! Why did you do that? He replies: I have no idea! and walks away.
so,I tried explaining to him that i am hurt and sad when he does it. He says: okay, I get it and leaves. But he doesn't really because it keeps happening. When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did.
Alot of times he thinks he can say he's sorry and all is okay. Last night instead of me saying" okay". I said: I want to know why you took the clay off the vase! He said his brain is telling him to do bad things,he can't help it. I told him maybe when he gets those thoughts to tell his brain to stop and ask why. He said okay.
was that a good thing to suggest?
What might be leading up to this stuff and what can can i do better?***

This seems to be all about impulse control. Some kids just don't have it. Some kids don't intentionally break stuff, and if might help to view it that way. There are kids who very absent-mindedly do things with their hands without even realizing they are doing them. Sometimes brains work faster than hands and sometimes bodies and hands work faster than brains. At some point, for those impulsive people, their brains and bodies start working together. That's my theory anyway.

I really do believe that for some kids they really can't help breaking things, it just happens by no fault of their own. Remember the saying "like a bull in a china shop"? That's how some kids are in life. If it were my child, I wouldn't assume ill intent. Keep the things you truly treasure out of sight. Bring in overwhelmingly large amounts of things to take apart and destroy, in large and small ways, with screw drivers and hammers. Find old cd's to break or plastic to melt. Keep his hands so busy that his mind can catch up.

He yelled because what you said was hurtful to him, especially if he really didn't mean to break your stuff, which he already was, in hind sight, feeling badly about. You reaffirmed his own thoughts that he'd done something terrible and intentional, even when he really didn't.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-He yelled because what you said was hurtful to him, especially if
he really didn't mean to break your stuff, which he already was, in
hind sight, feeling badly about. You reaffirmed his own thoughts that
he'd done something terrible and intentional, even when he really
didn't.
-=-

Be careful, though. Maybe it was intentional. Let's not assure the
mom too far, since she doesn't have unschooling parents to help her,
to witness the interactions.

Some kids do break stuff on purpose, sometimes for meanness. It has
been known to happen in the world.

You did say "especially if he really didn't mean to break your
stuff." And he probably didn't. And even if he did, he wouldn't
understand why or be able to explain it, probably.

I recommend this:
http://sandradodd.com/truck

During a car ride or some side-by-side activity, discuss something
similar, maybe about something the mom broke as a child, or something
someone broke, and see whether the conversation goes anywhere. It
might not, but it might come back around another time.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Be careful, though. Maybe it was intentional. Let's not assure the
mom too far, since she doesn't have unschooling parents to help her,
to witness the interactions.

Some kids do break stuff on purpose, sometimes for meanness. It has
been known to happen in the world.***

Yes true. I've also seen it happen where a kid breaks stuff very unintentionally, then gets in trouble for it, shamed and made to feel badly about enough times that they will start to break things intentionally to get that reaction because they KNOW it will make the other person upset. That sort of cycle can be stopped if the assumption of ill intent isn't there in the first place. Yet, I suppose it depends on several factors, one, knowing whether or not it was intentional, and another, assuming it wasn't intentional, how long that cycle's been playing out.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

*************
Yes true. I've also seen it happen where a kid breaks stuff very unintentionally, then gets in trouble for it, shamed and made to feel badly about enough times that they will start to break things intentionally to get that reaction because they KNOW it will make the other person upset. That sort of cycle can be stopped if the assumption of ill intent isn't there in the first place. Yet, I suppose it depends on several factors, one, knowing whether or not it was intentional, and another, assuming it wasn't intentional, how long that cycle's been playing out.
************

yes, and even if the intention is there, to break something, there's some deeper reason a kid feels the need to do something destructive or mean. and it could go right back to needing more interaction, less boredom, and most importantly perhaps, less *questioning* about *why* he did stuff that he clearly can't articulate reasons about, and more preventing him from doing stuff that brings negative attention and exacerbates the feelings of being misunderstood and unsupported (probably mom feels this way too - so it addresses both people's needs, simultaneously, to prevent and connect rather than to scrutinize and interogate afterward. also, the iterogation often can cause some deepseated bad feelings about oneself to grow and fester, (already there, clearly, if destruction is a strategy for getting attention) - and the worse a kid feels about themselves, the more mean and destructive they will likely be, so it's a vicious cycle...

lyla

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Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> ***Be careful, though. Maybe it was intentional. Let's not assure the
> mom too far, since she doesn't have unschooling parents to help her,
> to witness the interactions.
>
> Some kids do break stuff on purpose, sometimes for meanness. It has
> been known to happen in the world.***
>
> Yes true. I've also seen it happen where a kid breaks stuff very unintentionally, then gets in trouble for it, shamed and made to feel badly about enough times that they will start to break things intentionally to get that reaction because they KNOW it will make the other person upset. That sort of cycle can be stopped if the assumption of ill intent isn't there in the first place. Yet, I suppose it depends on several factors, one, knowing whether or not it was intentional, and another, assuming it wasn't intentional, how long that cycle's been playing out.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



I had a flashback to when my son was about a year old. I was holding him in my arms and he had in his hand a ceramic salt cellar in the shape of a pig. Suddenly he threw it on the floor and it shattered into about six or seven pieces. The look of surprise on his face was totally "Wow, I didn't expect THAT to happen". I think he was expecting it to bounce like his similarly sized and shaped green rubber elephant would have done.

Another time when he was about seven or eight, he picked up an owl statue that was in our garden that his sister had bought the year before he was born. I asked him to put it down and he said "Okay" and threw it to the ground breaking its head off. He didn't know it was meaningful to me; I think to him it was merely an innocent victim in a game. (I glued the owl's head back on and, as I write, can see it out of the window standing on display on my front deck).

One early morning last midwinter, there was a thick layer of ice on a puddle in our back garden. My son and I lifted it, placed it on the lawn and dropped a house brick on it. We wanted to know if the ice would break. I thought it would crack. Instead it disintegrated into a thousand tiny pieces sprayed in all directions. Way cool! I took photographs.

When I was a kid, I had a Sooty xylophone. The "notes" were made of tin and I discovered that if I took them off, gathered them up and dropped them from a height onto our dining room they made a sound like a window being smashed. Oh joy! I spent many a happy hour doing that for some time just to hear the sound of a window being smashed.

I wonder sometimes how often 'wilfully' breaking something represents to children something other than the destruction of property. I've found determining the "motivation" of my own children in that regard pretty much guesswork in any event.

Random thoughts on the subject.

Bob

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:

>
> When I was a kid, I had a Sooty xylophone. The "notes" were made of tin and I discovered that if I took them off, gathered them up and dropped them from a height onto our dining room they made a sound like a window being smashed.


Oops. For "dining room" read "dining room table". :-)

Bob

Vidyut Kale

"What might be leading up to this stuff and what can can i do better"

He sounds what my grandmom used to call a doer with nothing to do. Bored,
restless, trying to find unusual, exciting things to do with things he's
'had enough of'. I was wondering if he had enough 'stuff' to do things with.
Not people and interaction, but stuff to get messy with. Clay, stuff to
break, smash, dismantle, fix, create... one 'great fun' was water
balloons<http://www.flickr.com/photos/gps1/3347134982/>and a safe area
with a nice outside wall to throw them at. You can also have
fights with them. Throw them at each other. Doesn't hurt. Things like that -
that take doing - filling balloons, experimenting, lot of wet, exciting
action.... and cheap. Don't even think of numbers below 20.

Sounds like a difficult situation. I don't know what you are doing to know
what you can do better, but sharing a principle that has helped bring me
clarity in difficult scenarios:
People over things
as in valuing people more than things that get broken, could be broken, are
needed, concepts, ideas, objects of desire, public image, everything not
people.

When a relationship gets difficult, its easy for me to focus on something
that will not 'feel back' at me when I can't deal with what I'm feeling, but
what helps me is to focus soundly on the other person in the relationship.
Often, I notice something that helps both of us.

Vidyut


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Vidyut Kale

Sorry for double post. Found a good reference for the balloon fight :
http://games.webdunia.com/PlayGame.aspx?id=27

<http://games.webdunia.com/PlayGame.aspx?id=27>I just realized that I hadn't
mentioned that the balloons will break and splash water on the 'victim' -
don't try this indoors.

Vidyut

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:

> "What might be leading up to this stuff and what can can i do better"
>
> He sounds what my grandmom used to call a doer with nothing to do. Bored,
> restless, trying to find unusual, exciting things to do with things he's
> 'had enough of'. I was wondering if he had enough 'stuff' to do things with.
> Not people and interaction, but stuff to get messy with. Clay, stuff to
> break, smash, dismantle, fix, create... one 'great fun' was water balloons<http://www.flickr.com/photos/gps1/3347134982/>and a safe area with a nice outside wall to throw them at. You can also have
> fights with them. Throw them at each other. Doesn't hurt. Things like that -
> that take doing - filling balloons, experimenting, lot of wet, exciting
> action.... and cheap. Don't even think of numbers below 20.
>
> Sounds like a difficult situation. I don't know what you are doing to know
> what you can do better, but sharing a principle that has helped bring me
> clarity in difficult scenarios:
> People over things
> as in valuing people more than things that get broken, could be broken, are
> needed, concepts, ideas, objects of desire, public image, everything not
> people.
>
> When a relationship gets difficult, its easy for me to focus on something
> that will not 'feel back' at me when I can't deal with what I'm feeling, but
> what helps me is to focus soundly on the other person in the relationship.
> Often, I notice something that helps both of us.
>
> Vidyut
>


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Ana Maria Bruce

///Bring in overwhelmingly large amounts of things to take apart and destroy, in large and small ways, with screw drivers and hammers. Keep his hands so busy ////

I have 3 boys 20, 18 and 16. They have broken so many things...I lost count. Sometimes just because they were curious things would get broken. Or because they were clumsy. I am glad I let them be curious, touch and handle things. Many things that were special to me at times got broken by accident. One time I just stared at my broken tea cups that had fallen off a shelf, because they bumped the wall too hard underneath...they ran off.....were these things too important to me? I think they weren't sure. Every personality expresses "sorry" differently. We need to make sure we aren't expecting something based on how we would express it. I had a hard time learning that one.

deedeanne

--- In [email protected], "troubadour4me"<ronniegreek@...> wrote:
"Last night,everything seemed to be going okay,he was happy,I told him i was hungry and made a sandwich. He stayed at the kitchen table while i went into the family room(he hates bread,the smell...)I was on the chair watching t.v. and when i was done eating I walked back into the kitchen and he was picking apart all the clay off a vase i made. it was all over the floor!"


This really stood out to me because it wasn't clear if he was doing something at the table already, or if he had something at the table that he could do while he avoided the smell of your sandwich. I would ask my son what he was doing before I left the room. If he said "nothing", I would have suggested/offer things for him to do. An 8 year old is kind of young, in my opinion, to just be left in another room while I go off to do what I want. He really may have picked the vase apart because he didn't know what else to do. Maybe he was bored.



"When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did."

Maybe he really does feel bad about it before you even tell him so, and he's getting angry because he feels worse when you state what's obvious to him. Kids can often tell how we feel about something just by looking at our face, especially if we're upset. The idea that he wants to shut you up and control you may be a reaction to you trying to control him with your statements of how his actions make you feel. Honestly, aren't you telling him how you feel so that you can change his behavior? Maybe he isn't trying to control as much as he is trying to communicate to you that he needs help in finding things to do that are acceptable to you.


"What might be leading up to this stuff and what can can i do better?"

I agree with some of the other responses that your son might need lots to do to keep his hands busy. Maybe he just needs SOMETHING to do. What were you expecting him to do while you went in the other room to eat? Maybe you could tell him before you leave him alone, and maybe give him interesting things to do. Maybe you two can do more together.

I had a friend who had a daughter who was frequently "getting into things she shouldn't". This little girl was always looking for things to do, and if her mother wasn't there to suggest things and guide her, the girl would often find things that ended up causing damage (things like nail polish on the sofa, swinging a gerbil around in a basket until it droppped). I witnessed and tried to intervene in many of the things the girl was about to do, and she never seemed to have ill intent. She was just very active and interested in trying things out. It always seemed to be that the mother was expecting her daughter to behave differently while she was off doing something else, even though she knew how her daughter was.

If you feel your child cannot be trusted to be play alone, don't leave him alone. Play with him and give him immediate feedback about his choices. Provide him with more acceptable alternatives to what he wants to do, or like others said, things to purposefully deconstruct if that is really what he wants. Just don't leave him alone with nothing to do and expect him to do nothing.


Deanne

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Is it just your things he feels entitled to play with? Does he experience
privacy? In co-sleeping households it is hard to explain privacy. Even the
idea that a family resource belongs to everyone or is only

My kids take liberties in our home they wouldn't at someone elses house. I
am not attached to my things, and they don't break them. They don't dump
out my bag partly because it has no interest and partly because we haven't
been able to make purchases in the past because of it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Sorry clicked send instead of save...here is the correction

On 15 April 2010 13:02, Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:

> Is it just your things he feels entitled to play with? Does he experience
> privacy? In co-sleeping households it is hard to explain privacy. Even the
> idea that a family resource belongs to everyone or is only one person is
> complex.
>
> My kids take liberties in our home they wouldn't at someone elses house. I
> am not attached to my things, and they don't break them. They don't dump
> out my bag partly because it has no interest and partly because we haven't
> been able to make purchases in the past because of missing bankcards.
>

Start with other people's ideas of private. If he isn't
stealing/vandalising work from here. Is he trashing the neighbours house?

Could he have an allergy to wheat? Can you forego bread? Could you have
fruit, veggies and dips or a salad or crackers? If this is a pattern of
behaviour figure out the pattern.

Maybe he feels as if you chose eating a sandwich with bread, over eating a
lunch he could tolerate smelling. Is that rejection he experiences? Try
honouring this aversion if it is so strong that it changes his behaviour and
see what happens? Some parents don't drink liquor or smoke around their
children--could you avoid sandwiches?

Marina

--

If you can see that your life is full and that life is good, then you are
more apt to find something positive and agreeable in another person. Jenny C

Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


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Marina DeLuca-Howard

<<I was on the chair watching t.v. and when i was done eating I walked back
into the kitchen and he was picking apart all the clay off a vase i made. it
was all over the floor!>>

Perhaps he felt you prefered the tv to him? My cats like to sit on
newspapers to stop us reading--they want attention. Maybe eat lunch outside
or have a picnic with him.

Perhaps he thought he was rearranging the vase, and going to surprize you
with a joint project.

Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

> "When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I
> hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control
> me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did."

The problem in this family is that her idea of "push it" is to say, "I'm
really hurt you did that."

After many many emails, I honestly just don't think this mom is willing
to hear what we have to say. She is convinced that there are magic words
that will make her son behave better.

She doesn't listen any better than her son.

My advice is to do a LOT more for him - focus a LOT more on making sure
he is active and engaged in interesting things that he is enjoying all
the time. Every story, for months and years, has been about what he does
when left alone. Don't every leave him alone. Not for a minute. He can't
be trusted. He KNOWS he can't be trusted and must think his parents are
complete idiots to keep leaving him alone, over and over, to destroy
things.

Will this be difficult? To never leave him alone and to keep him always
supplied with things to do that are occupying him happily?

Yes.

Is it worth it?

It won't be forever.

Wondering what on earth would I do if someone spit in my food?
Say, "Oh, darling, I'm really hurt that you did that?"
Not likely. My actions would be strong and swift and clearly angry and
shocked and I'd sweep up that kid and set him down somewhere else and
say, "NEVER do that EVER again." And I would not have to say, "Honey,
I'm hurt that you did that," because I wouldn't be "hurt" - that's not
a normal reaction, I'd be furious.

There are dynamics going on here that we're not hearing about, I'm sure.
There is something else. This is one very angry little boy.

My sister adopted a child who behaved this way. She had good reason for
acting out her extreme anger - she'd been sexually abused as a toddler
by adult relatives and then, again, when she was 5 or 6 by a teenage boy
who lived in the same foster home with her. She had reactive attachment
disorder. She had to have a responsible adult with her every single
minute or she would harm herself or someone else. So I'm not suggesting
this without knowing what it is I'm talking about.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-Wondering what on earth would I do if someone spit in my food?
Say, "Oh, darling, I'm really hurt that you did that?"-=-

That's a reference to something that wasn't let through to the list.
Sorry.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

troubadour4me

I agree I haven't been listening. I need too. I was furious at him when he spit in my food. I did yell at him it was after when i calmed down,I questioned him."pushed it"
Most of the time Lukas IS happy.
As to the dynamics going on....perhaps it's the way i talk or write. He has NEVER been LEFT with anyone alone. He hasn't been away from us...except for being in the ICU one night.
He did have open heart surgery when he was 2yo.
If you look at the pictures of him...he looks pretty darned thrilled!




--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> > "When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I
> > hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control
> > me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did."
>
> The problem in this family is that her idea of "push it" is to say, "I'm
> really hurt you did that."
>
> After many many emails, I honestly just don't think this mom is willing
> to hear what we have to say. She is convinced that there are magic words
> that will make her son behave better.
>
> She doesn't listen any better than her son.
>
> My advice is to do a LOT more for him - focus a LOT more on making sure
> he is active and engaged in interesting things that he is enjoying all
> the time. Every story, for months and years, has been about what he does
> when left alone. Don't every leave him alone. Not for a minute. He can't
> be trusted. He KNOWS he can't be trusted and must think his parents are
> complete idiots to keep leaving him alone, over and over, to destroy
> things.
>
> Will this be difficult? To never leave him alone and to keep him always
> supplied with things to do that are occupying him happily?
>
> Yes.
>
> Is it worth it?
>
> It won't be forever.
>
> Wondering what on earth would I do if someone spit in my food?
> Say, "Oh, darling, I'm really hurt that you did that?"
> Not likely. My actions would be strong and swift and clearly angry and
> shocked and I'd sweep up that kid and set him down somewhere else and
> say, "NEVER do that EVER again." And I would not have to say, "Honey,
> I'm hurt that you did that," because I wouldn't be "hurt" - that's not
> a normal reaction, I'd be furious.
>
> There are dynamics going on here that we're not hearing about, I'm sure.
> There is something else. This is one very angry little boy.
>
> My sister adopted a child who behaved this way. She had good reason for
> acting out her extreme anger - she'd been sexually abused as a toddler
> by adult relatives and then, again, when she was 5 or 6 by a teenage boy
> who lived in the same foster home with her. She had reactive attachment
> disorder. She had to have a responsible adult with her every single
> minute or she would harm herself or someone else. So I'm not suggesting
> this without knowing what it is I'm talking about.
>
> -pam
>

Deb Lewis

***This is one very angry little boy.***

I think so too. I think I remember this poster asking about constant interruption from her son. That she would be wanting to read her mail and he'd be there every few minutes interrupting her.
He is alone too much. A child coming to his mom should not be thought of as an interruption. Kids need attention and some kids need more than others. It's possible he's figured out that his mom will always have something better to do than be with him. When I read this post I wondered why is the mom making vases and gluing shells when she has a kid so very obviously needing her attention, needing to be occupied?

Be with him from the time he wakes up until he goes to bed. If that means eating microwave meals or crackers and cheese or going to KFC for dinner, do that. Don't get him started on a project and then leave him, stay with him, play with him, be right there. Don't go make vases or read mail. Get out and do things he likes. Go play Frisbee, go find a climbing wall, go swimming, go bike riding, go bowling, set up a badminton net - whatever he'd like to do. Give him a lot of opportunity to be really active and busy and *be right with him.*

Deb Lewis








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

"If you look at the pictures of him...he looks pretty darned thrilled!"

That is one way of looking for it. There is a different picture painted in
your posts. Every situation has its ups and downs. It doesn't help to ask
for help and then defend your actions pointing out the bits that are going
well. Its good they are going well, but obviously you wouldn't be upset if
there wasn't a problem. It is those situations people are trying to help you
with.

Change is scary. Particularly when its change that involves saying, "okay,
perhaps I didn't deal with that well" and then doing something that
inevitably takes us out of our comfort zone. You have a choice right here.
You could look at those pictures and explain how you are already doing it
all and that you somehow have an exceptionally problematic child (which in
itself is not a nice way of looking at him) or you could grab every
suggestion that comes in here and see how you could leverage it in your
life. We don't matter in the long run. Nor does what we think matter or if
we 'get it' that you are doing everything right. What will matter is if a
positive change happened.

If we do the same things, we get the same results. You can't explain to
cause a change. Change will mean doing things differently.

I'm being very blunt here, and I'm not even experienced as an unschooler,
but I think this needs said.

If you are serious about using the help you get, its important to let go of
thought processes like this:

I agree I haven't been listening. I need too. I was furious at him when he
> spit in my food. I did yell at him it was after when i calmed down,I
> questioned him."pushed it"
> Most of the time Lukas IS happy.
> As to the dynamics going on....perhaps it's the way i talk or write. He has
> NEVER been LEFT with anyone alone. He hasn't been away from us...except for
> being in the ICU one night.
> He did have open heart surgery when he was 2yo.
> If you look at the pictures of him...he looks pretty darned thrilled!


and really inquire into why is it that so many people think your son has
been left alone if you think you haven't done it? What is this aloneness
they see that you don't, and how can you learn to see it and prevent it? It
is important to stop focusing on what you have been doing, since obviously
its causing you problems and rather than say "I DID do that, but...." just
see what else you could do that fits the suggestions more exactly. If
nothing occurs to you that seems different, try asking for a script. Ask
people what they suggest you do and do that exactly. It may mean not making
vases. It may mean allowing him all the access to the clay that he wants. It
may mean going to great efforts to keep things you want safe out of his
sight. It may mean stopping focusing on the words and getting down to doing.
There are many suggestions. Don't run them hypothetically in your mind and
see problems with them - you are shooting yourself in the foot. Try them out
physically before trashing them. Otherwise, its not going to matter how much
good advice is poured and how much you seek it. that gap between the cup and
the lip will keep frustrating you.

I apologize if this is offensive, my intention is to point out a gap I see
that I think is making the help you get not actually help you.

Vidyut

>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:17 PM, troubadour4me wrote:

> I was furious at him when he spit in my food. I did yell at him

There's yelling and there's focused intense speech, looking at him
directly to communicate what you want him to understand. A mother
screaming "I'm so pissed at you!" is not the same as holding his gaze
and telling him sternly he's not to do that again.

If you're ranting it could be he even enjoys the power of being able
to cause you to do that. If he's feeling powerless, making you mad is
a form of power he has.

> Most of the time Lukas IS happy.

But by happy do you mean he's engaged?

Or by happy do you mean not crying or complaining or bothering you?

When he's happy, are you there by his side giving him as much of your
attention as *he* needs?

> He has NEVER been LEFT with anyone alone


But is he doing things on his own while you're in the house doing
something else? Most parents of 8 yos can leave to make lunch or
answer an email or two but his actions are showing he's not ready yet.
He needs his bucket full to overflowing before he'll feel he has
enough of you to carry through any time you're off to do something else.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/15/2010 11:56 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Wondering what on earth would I do if someone spit in my food?
> Say, "Oh, darling, I'm really hurt that you did that?"-=-
>
> That's a reference to something that wasn't let through to the list.
> Sorry.
>
> Sandra

Oh sorry.

My fault. Rushed and on a strange computer and didn't pay attention.
Really sorry to add confusion.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/15/2010 12:17 PM, troubadour4me wrote:
> I agree I haven't been listening. I need too. I was furious at him
> when he spit in my food. I did yell at him it was after when i calmed
> down,I questioned him."pushed it"
So - don't yell at him. And, if you've been yelling at him, how on earth
do you think saying you are hurt is pushing it?

> Most of the time Lukas IS happy.

Are angry and happy opposites? You've written about his behavior a lot.
He sounds angry. At you.
> As to the dynamics going on....perhaps it's the way i talk or write.
> He has NEVER been LEFT with anyone alone.

When you left him in the kitchen you left him alone. When he is
destroying things, you've left him alone.

I realize you're having a really hard time comprehending what people
here are saying to you. That's why I'm being extra blunt.
> He hasn't been away from us...except for being in the ICU one night.
> He did have open heart surgery when he was 2yo.

You completely and totally and thoroughly (and purposely?) misunderstood
what we meant by not leaving him alone. Be with him all the time. Not in
the house when he's in the yard. Not in the kitchen when he's in the
bedroom. WITH him - engaged and having fun together. Focus on him all
the time. If he is playing happily with legos on the floor, sit down on
the floor and play with him. If he doesn't want you to do that, then sit
in a chair nearby and pay attention to how he plays. Think about what
you could offer him that would enhance his play. Be super generous with
your time and energy and attention. SUPER generous.

After you do this for a while, no telling how long, you will be able to
trust him to be on his own more. But there is something that has gone on
in his life that has made him untrustworthy now.
> If you look at the pictures of him...he looks pretty darned thrilled!
If he's so happy, why do YOU think he is doing these hostile,
destructive things to you?

-pam

Sandra Dodd

> As to the dynamics going on....perhaps it's the way i talk or write.
> He has NEVER been LEFT with anyone alone.

-=-When you left him in the kitchen you left him alone. When he is
destroying things, you've left him alone.-=-


I think the defensiveness about being with someone else and not
parents was in response to a mention of sexual abuse in another example.

We don't need more details on the situation, but I still think it
would be helpful to find local unschoolers and hang out, partly so he
could play and see the dynamics in other families, and partly in hopes
that one of the moms might be willing to offer feedback and ideas.

Maybe never having been separated is part of the problem. Maybe the
mom needs more time alone and the child needs time without the mom.
It's possible. But not time by himself without exciting new things
to see and do and think about.

http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren most of those ideas are for
younger kids, but some would still be useful. Tents. Playdough.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lahtaydah

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> > "When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I
Wow.

Seriously? This is how you talk to people on this list??
From Lee, who is new and not staying long.
PS This probably won't be posted publicly, and that's okay, but I just have to say--this list has a bad rep for being run by bullies. Didn't quite believe it, til now.


Again, Wow.

> > hate you and starts yelling more like he wants to shut me up...control
> > me with his anger so he doesn't feel bad about what he did."
>
> The problem in this family is that her idea of "push it" is to say, "I'm
> really hurt you did that."
>
> After many many emails, I honestly just don't think this mom is willing
> to hear what we have to say. She is convinced that there are magic words
> that will make her son behave better.
>
> She doesn't listen any better than her son.
>
> My advice is...
>
> -pam
>

lalow66

> > > "When i push it and say:I am really hurt you did that! He screams: I
> Wow.
>
> Seriously? This is how you talk to people on this list??
> From Lee, who is new and not staying long.
> PS This probably won't be posted publicly, and that's okay, but I just have to say--this list has a bad rep for being run by bullies. Didn't quite believe it, til now.
>
>
what you have in quotes is what the origional poster said. so that really doesnt make since.

I used to get mad (and sometimes I still get annoyed) that my kids wake me up in the morning. I hate to be woken up. It puts me in a bad mood.
they go downstairs and make messess. they make lots of noise. they fight over the couch and whether to watch t.v. or play video games, or over lego pieces or who gets on the computer first. I spent alot of time trying to figure out why they do this and telling myself that they should be able to handle a few minutes in the morning so I could wake up peacefully (they dont fight much during the rest of the day). And then it dawned on me that this isnt THEIR problem, it is mine. Fact is they need me in the morning and I need to get to sleep earlier and find a way to either wake up ealier than them or quit getting angry that they are waking me up.
For whatever reason, the origional posters son cant handle the feeling of being left alone. Quite honestly, being left alone, one night in ICU might have done it. That kind of experience can be very very traumatic to a child (surgeries) at a young age and he may not even be able to pinpoint the fear he is feeling when he is alone in a room. That fear exhibits itself in destructiveness. He is trying to communicate to you how he feels, when you leave him alone in a room.

In referance to this list being full of bullies. When I first came here I was taken aback by the bluntness because I wasnt used to it. But honestly, I love it. I need bluntness in my life.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Seriously? This is how you talk to people on this list??
From Lee, who is new and not staying long.
PS This probably won't be posted publicly, and that's okay, but I just
have to say--this list has a bad rep for being run by bullies. Didn't
quite believe it, til now. -=-

I let this through because I was in the mood. I thought... Do the
moderators take a shamin' from an anonymous poster privately, or in
public?

I think in public.

There have been several posts returned lately. One was from "the mom
in question." Moderators saw it. It was rough and contradictory, and
in correspondence afterwards, the author tried to deny having said
something that had been very clearly stated.

So the list was spared all that, but Pam, as a moderator, knew. Pam,
having been active on this list for the entire life of the list knows
how long that mom has been on the list, asking the same kinds of
questions, with the situation worsening.

To Lee who is new and not staying long:
This is what real support looks like: http://sandradodd.com/support
Those quotes are real. There are supportive lists like that easily
available all around. I'm sure you can find one.

This list was not created to make moms feel better about "whatever."
This list is to help them move closer to unschooling, for the sake of
their children's peace and learning.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do the
moderators take a shamin' from an anonymous poster privately-=-

I guess I shouldn't have said "anonymous." It was Lee, she or he
said. lahtaydah/Wildgrove@....

http://sandradodd.com/feedback

Much of that is about this list, and there's negative stuff, lower
right, in case Lee or anyone wants to focus on more negativity.

Those who can do better are welcome to do so. Those who give useful
unschooling advice are VERY welcome here! Those who give no useful
advice but complain about the advice given are less welcome, but I
trust they might change.

Sandra

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