limits/compromises/routines....
Vanessa Grant
>>>>I read Clara's mail and Naomi's response last night, and couldn't stop thinking about it. I think, by reading the questions you asked, it might be helpful to understand what limitation does. It creates an artificial state of mind, where there is no freedom to make a real, personal choice. I will illustrate this statement with my own youth, because it is very fitting I think.<<<<I have a question about limits (or the lack), and making sure everyone in the home is happy enough.
What about balancing the needs of a lot of different people?
What about when the limitation is not "because it's so bad for you" etc but a matter of, "we can only buy so much of this" or just sharing the space of the house in a way that is fair on everyone.?
We have a large family and a smallish house, and an ordinary budget for the sake of each other we do need to have quite a bit of consideration for each other.
Do you think a child responds differently when they are given an explanation about why we need to be quiet (settle quietly in rooms readying for bed?)from 9.00 pm because Dad has to get up at 4.00am to milk cows, than if things are just given AS rules?
I always tell the boys I have no problem with them chatting in bed so long as it isn't disturbing those who want to sleep. They don't seem to mind the "limit" (which is that we pretty much all head off to bed at roughly a certain hour), given they have the freedom to do stuff quietly for a while, and often put their light off themselves. But with three sharing the room, it's not going to be a matter of each person making their own choice about lights off anyway......they have to consider each other anyway don't they? Sometimes it is probably just the bossier kid getting his way, but generally they seem to agree about lights off.
Then, well stuff like choc milk/treats and sweets, we buy a certain amount, the amount we can afford financially and I have no problem witht he idea of letting them 'go for it" excpet that more than once in our house the littlests have missed out if I didn't share something out myself, which was kind of traumatic for the one who missed out! I feel that people should be able to trust that their share of the drinking choc will still be there when they want it, so short of setting a limit, or hiding some for the littlests, or repeating myself a bit about not over-doing it ......it is hard to know how to work it.
I guess my question is, that if something presented as part of a principal of considering others, rather than a rule "because i know whats best for you" will the children respond differently?
I also wonder, if we are honest that some things are our preferences - is it Ok for Mum and dad to have SOME preferences in the running of the home if we respect our childrens preferences as much as practically possible too? I prefer the computers to go off when we have our evening meal and stay off while we get everyone ready for bed, and do dishes etc... then we often either watch a DVD or read together , before they go off and read in bed or the youngers and I get into bed. This is just my preference, not a "moral law" of some kind, and no-one has ever complained, and it is nice to see everyone at the end of the day before bed and do something together.
Is this the same as "limits" in the sense of "only one hour computer a day", does it feel the same to the child, as far as trust goes?
Please, be gentle with me, i am totally new to these concepts and thinking about them very much.
Vanessa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Last things first:
-=-Please, be gentle with me, i am totally new to these concepts and
thinking about them very much.-=--
Once ideas are out there, they're to be discussed. Although it's
fine with me for newcomers to be on this list, it's not a list for
newcomers. It's a serious discussion list. But Joyce and I have both
collected and continue to collect those things that are discussed
repeatedly, or explanations that were particularly clear or
interesting, and those are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
We're not sorting topics that have to be handled gingerly from topics
we can discuss openly and candidly. If a mom is too sensitive to have
her ideas discussed at an adult level, it's totally fine to just lurk
or to get a friend to ask the questions, or to mail them to a
moderator to have them presented anonymously.
-=-What about balancing the needs of a lot of different people?-=-
It's not easy and it's important not to leave anyone out completely.
-=-Do you think a child responds differently when they are given an
explanation about why we need to be quiet (settle quietly in rooms
readying for bed?)from 9.00 pm because Dad has to get up at 4.00am to
milk cows, than if things are just given AS rules?
-=-
Yes, I think so. Of course.
Don't adults respond differently to requests and explanations than
they do to commands?
-=-I always tell the boys I have no problem with them chatting in bed
so long as it isn't disturbing those who want to sleep. They don't
seem to mind the "limit"-=-
It's not an arbitrary rule. It's about the need for rest and quiet.
That's not the kind of arbitrary rule anyone's complaining about.
Some families have rules about bedtime at a certain time, by age,
regardless of what's going on or whether anyone is trying to sleep.
Some families live by the clock and by a lot of "because I said so,
that's why." It's not illegal to do that. It doesn't help a family
move toward unschooling, though, so for this list, for a discussion of
the principles of unschooling, it's not as good an idea as deciding
things based on principles and realities of individual situations.
-=-Then, well stuff like choc milk/treats and sweets, we buy a certain
amount, the amount we can afford financially and I have no problem
witht he idea of letting them 'go for it" excpet that more than once
in our house the littlests have missed out -=-
If there's a limited amount of something and a large number of people,
"go for it" will never be a good policy.
I don't think anyone here has recommended any "go for it" in a
situation when someone might be deprived completely.
-=-so short of setting a limit, or hiding some for the littlests, or
repeating myself a bit about not over-doing it ......it is hard to
know how to work it.-=-
Divide it. Save some back for the others. If there are limitations,
there are. If two people finish a pizza and someone doesn't get a
single bite, how is that good for anybody?
-=-I guess my question is, that if something presented as part of a
principal of considering others, rather than a rule "because i know
whats best for you" will the children respond differently?-=-
It's really hard to answer such a vague question. "It depends" is
the only real answer.
-=-I also wonder, if we are honest that some things are our
preferences - is it Ok for Mum and dad to have SOME preferences in the
running of the home if we respect our childrens preferences as much as
practically possible too?-=-
It is impossible for parents not to have some preferences. Are the
preferences for arbitrary rules?
-=-Is this the same as "limits" in the sense of "only one hour
computer a day", does it feel the same to the child, as far as trust
goes?
-=-
It depends.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Please, be gentle with me, i am totally new to these concepts and
thinking about them very much.-=--
Once ideas are out there, they're to be discussed. Although it's
fine with me for newcomers to be on this list, it's not a list for
newcomers. It's a serious discussion list. But Joyce and I have both
collected and continue to collect those things that are discussed
repeatedly, or explanations that were particularly clear or
interesting, and those are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
We're not sorting topics that have to be handled gingerly from topics
we can discuss openly and candidly. If a mom is too sensitive to have
her ideas discussed at an adult level, it's totally fine to just lurk
or to get a friend to ask the questions, or to mail them to a
moderator to have them presented anonymously.
-=-What about balancing the needs of a lot of different people?-=-
It's not easy and it's important not to leave anyone out completely.
-=-Do you think a child responds differently when they are given an
explanation about why we need to be quiet (settle quietly in rooms
readying for bed?)from 9.00 pm because Dad has to get up at 4.00am to
milk cows, than if things are just given AS rules?
-=-
Yes, I think so. Of course.
Don't adults respond differently to requests and explanations than
they do to commands?
-=-I always tell the boys I have no problem with them chatting in bed
so long as it isn't disturbing those who want to sleep. They don't
seem to mind the "limit"-=-
It's not an arbitrary rule. It's about the need for rest and quiet.
That's not the kind of arbitrary rule anyone's complaining about.
Some families have rules about bedtime at a certain time, by age,
regardless of what's going on or whether anyone is trying to sleep.
Some families live by the clock and by a lot of "because I said so,
that's why." It's not illegal to do that. It doesn't help a family
move toward unschooling, though, so for this list, for a discussion of
the principles of unschooling, it's not as good an idea as deciding
things based on principles and realities of individual situations.
-=-Then, well stuff like choc milk/treats and sweets, we buy a certain
amount, the amount we can afford financially and I have no problem
witht he idea of letting them 'go for it" excpet that more than once
in our house the littlests have missed out -=-
If there's a limited amount of something and a large number of people,
"go for it" will never be a good policy.
I don't think anyone here has recommended any "go for it" in a
situation when someone might be deprived completely.
-=-so short of setting a limit, or hiding some for the littlests, or
repeating myself a bit about not over-doing it ......it is hard to
know how to work it.-=-
Divide it. Save some back for the others. If there are limitations,
there are. If two people finish a pizza and someone doesn't get a
single bite, how is that good for anybody?
-=-I guess my question is, that if something presented as part of a
principal of considering others, rather than a rule "because i know
whats best for you" will the children respond differently?-=-
It's really hard to answer such a vague question. "It depends" is
the only real answer.
-=-I also wonder, if we are honest that some things are our
preferences - is it Ok for Mum and dad to have SOME preferences in the
running of the home if we respect our childrens preferences as much as
practically possible too?-=-
It is impossible for parents not to have some preferences. Are the
preferences for arbitrary rules?
-=-Is this the same as "limits" in the sense of "only one hour
computer a day", does it feel the same to the child, as far as trust
goes?
-=-
It depends.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vanessa Grant
>>Once ideas are out there, they're to be discussed. Although it'sfine with me for newcomers to be on this list, it's not a list for
newcomers. ....We're not sorting topics that have to be handled gingerly from topics
we can discuss openly and candidly. <<<
Oh yeah, now I hear you put it like that I agree - i think ideas should be discussed frankly.
>>It's really hard to answer such a vague question. "It depends" isthe only real answer.<<
Well despite the vagueness, I felt you did answer my questions, and I understand better how you see these issues.
Would it be fair to say, that being relaxed and not making an issue out of food is the point, and saving some of the goodies so everyone gets some is just part of life anyway?
Well, I appreciate everything I read on here -
Vanessa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Norman
Can someone clarify this for me who is this quote below attributed to?
Is clara claiming this or Naomi?
Posted by: "clara_bellar" claramont@... clara_bellar
Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:15 pm (PDT)
"And yes, I see lots of radically unschooled who are addicted to sugar or
media or both. This is why I have gotten into these themes."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is clara claiming this or Naomi?
Posted by: "clara_bellar" claramont@... clara_bellar
Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:15 pm (PDT)
"And yes, I see lots of radically unschooled who are addicted to sugar or
media or both. This is why I have gotten into these themes."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
That was part of the quote from Naomi Aldort.
Schuyler
________________________________
Can someone clarify this for me who is this quote below attributed to?
Is clara claiming this or Naomi?
Posted by: "clara_bellar" claramont@... clara_bellar
Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:15 pm (PDT)
"And yes, I see lots of radically unschooled who are addicted to sugar or
media or both. This is why I have gotten into these themes."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
Can someone clarify this for me who is this quote below attributed to?
Is clara claiming this or Naomi?
Posted by: "clara_bellar" claramont@... clara_bellar
Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:15 pm (PDT)
"And yes, I see lots of radically unschooled who are addicted to sugar or
media or both. This is why I have gotten into these themes."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<Do you think a child responds differently when they are given an explanation about why we need to be quiet (settle quietly in rooms readying for bed?)from 9.00 pm because Dad has to get up at 4.00am to milk cows, than if things are just given AS rules?>>>
-=-=-=-
My kids are 4 and 7 and I have always talk to them about keeping it quiet for daddy to sleep because he gets up at 4:00 AM to milk cows too. They do not have to go to bed in my house they just have to not make noise that would disturb their father.
Last night their dad was sleeping in the recliner downstairs and MD ( the 7 year old) asked his sister for her blanket and they put over dad.
They try their hard to keep quiet. Sometimes I have to remind them or help them but they really want to be nice to daddy.
-=-=-=-
<<<Then, well stuff like choc milk/treats and sweets, we buy a certain amount, the amount we can afford financially and I have no problem witht he idea of letting them 'go for it" excpet that more than once in our house the littlests have missed out if I didn't share something out myself, which was kind of traumatic for the one who missed out! I feel that people should be able to trust that their share of the drinking choc will still be there when they want it, so short of setting a limit, or hiding some for the littlests, or repeating myself a bit about not over-doing it ......it is hard to know how to work it.>>>
-=-=-=-
I assume you are a dairy farmer right ? Store bought chocolate milk is super expensive. Can you just use your own milk to make some chocolate milk? We do it at home. THat way as long as you have chocolate to make chocolate milk at home you will have chocolate milk.
As for treats and sweets we buy bulk because is cheaper and we found that the bakery outlets have super cheap stuff plus if we run out I can always just bake some cupcakes or cookies, without breaking the bank, and no one is left out.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-
My kids are 4 and 7 and I have always talk to them about keeping it quiet for daddy to sleep because he gets up at 4:00 AM to milk cows too. They do not have to go to bed in my house they just have to not make noise that would disturb their father.
Last night their dad was sleeping in the recliner downstairs and MD ( the 7 year old) asked his sister for her blanket and they put over dad.
They try their hard to keep quiet. Sometimes I have to remind them or help them but they really want to be nice to daddy.
-=-=-=-
<<<Then, well stuff like choc milk/treats and sweets, we buy a certain amount, the amount we can afford financially and I have no problem witht he idea of letting them 'go for it" excpet that more than once in our house the littlests have missed out if I didn't share something out myself, which was kind of traumatic for the one who missed out! I feel that people should be able to trust that their share of the drinking choc will still be there when they want it, so short of setting a limit, or hiding some for the littlests, or repeating myself a bit about not over-doing it ......it is hard to know how to work it.>>>
-=-=-=-
I assume you are a dairy farmer right ? Store bought chocolate milk is super expensive. Can you just use your own milk to make some chocolate milk? We do it at home. THat way as long as you have chocolate to make chocolate milk at home you will have chocolate milk.
As for treats and sweets we buy bulk because is cheaper and we found that the bakery outlets have super cheap stuff plus if we run out I can always just bake some cupcakes or cookies, without breaking the bank, and no one is left out.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Would it be fair to say, that being relaxed and not making an issue
out of food is the point, and saving some of the goodies so everyone
gets some is just part of life anyway?-=-
Sure.
If ten people go for pizza, it would be totally wrong for everyone to
snag pieces and put them on their plates while one of the ten was in
the bathroom. Duh!
I think the principle that people should be safe in their own home
pretty much applies to their being safe from robbery. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There are vague lots of principles, no one single list, but I can't
imagine anyone not feeling a child should be safe in his own home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out of food is the point, and saving some of the goodies so everyone
gets some is just part of life anyway?-=-
Sure.
If ten people go for pizza, it would be totally wrong for everyone to
snag pieces and put them on their plates while one of the ten was in
the bathroom. Duh!
I think the principle that people should be safe in their own home
pretty much applies to their being safe from robbery. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There are vague lots of principles, no one single list, but I can't
imagine anyone not feeling a child should be safe in his own home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vanessa Grant
>>>Store bought chocolate milk is super expensive. <<Oh yeah I know, we don't buy it ready made, the drinking choc. stuff we buy to flavour the milk (Cadbury drinking chocolate - we are in Australia)is also expensive. Actually I have just decided to buy two packages a week and hold a little back for the youngests. If the olders eat theirs in the first half of the week thats OK.
Thanks for your input - I enjoyed hearing how your children are considering Daddy with being quiet etc in the evening - mine, also are really pretty keen to make Daddy happy like that too, and yes, just need reminding.
Being kind to siblings is more of a work in progress around here though, and it makes me so sad when they won't be kind to each other. Has anyone had a child/teen who needed a lot of help in this area? My oldest (who chooses to go to school) teases/mocks the others often, and while I don't want to be the constantly nagging parent, i can't stand by and let a younger child be teased so much. He did mostly learn this from other kids in a previous living situation who were very sarcastic and "clever" with insults. I might need some new tools for this, I am racking my brain, as just telling him isn't helping. I know he probably needs a lot of love from us to stop feeling the need to be unkind, in addition we are teaching him to just "tell the facts" ie "instead of "you little weasel" how about "I am mad at you for smashing my lego!".
Any wisdom appreciated. vanessa
Vanessa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My oldest (who chooses to go to school) teases/mocks the others
often, and while I don't want to be the constantly nagging parent, i
can't stand by and let a younger child be teased so much. He did
mostly learn this from other kids in a previous living situation who
were very sarcastic and "clever" with insults-=-
He's having it reinforced in school, no doubt.
When school kids came over to our house after school and continued the
schoolyard crap on my kids, I would say, directly to whichever
neighborhood child was in school-mode, "Kirby doesn't go to school and
he's not used to this, so don't." or "I know the kids at school treat
each other that way. That's one reason my kids aren't in school. I
don't want that here."
It could be a condition of his continuing to go to school that he NOT
act "like a school kid" at home, maybe?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
often, and while I don't want to be the constantly nagging parent, i
can't stand by and let a younger child be teased so much. He did
mostly learn this from other kids in a previous living situation who
were very sarcastic and "clever" with insults-=-
He's having it reinforced in school, no doubt.
When school kids came over to our house after school and continued the
schoolyard crap on my kids, I would say, directly to whichever
neighborhood child was in school-mode, "Kirby doesn't go to school and
he's not used to this, so don't." or "I know the kids at school treat
each other that way. That's one reason my kids aren't in school. I
don't want that here."
It could be a condition of his continuing to go to school that he NOT
act "like a school kid" at home, maybe?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]