Trust.....and those people who make us doubt....
cheesyv2002
Hi, I am new here - and just quickly I live in tasmania, Australia and have seven kids. We have nearly always home/schooled with varying degrees of structure/non-structure, but despite being deeply drawn to un-schooling I have let fear hold me back for years.
in the end the realisation that what we have been doing just isn't working, and the way our family is (relate to one another) etc isn't what it COULD be, has pointed to that this is what we need and always needed.
I have been reading on-line extensively for a few weeks, and have been and read the archives of this list on-line. Great stuff.
TRUST - what a revelation the idea that children can be trusted with their own lives. Instinctively i agree with it, but habit is going to be a tough one to crack with LIVING it.
I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their children, and learning to trust.
Also....I'd love to hear others experiences with dealing with those people who make you doubt. (Should that be make you choose to doubt?LOL?) There is one person whose single comment steered me away from un-schooling for years, the comment being that a certain home-schooling family wouldn't "Amount to much" because their children never had to do anything/get out of bed etc.
I now completely challenge the notion of "Amounting to much" anyway, so that would no longer hold me back......, but another difficulty I have really felt over the years is that this same person has children who are like a living advertisement for the wonders of school without any of the negatives. She is a close family member and our children are the same age. it always felt very confronting that their children thrived and loved school and were creative and energetic and busy and happy, and we sort of puddled around at home doing not much. there was like a "look what your kids are missing" theme to much of our interaction, not always spoken.
Looking back this undermined my confidence, and i did much academics with them early out of fear/pressure/something to prove.
I HAVE learned from that. I AM determined to change, but I wanted to hear from others who have overcome doubts and subtle pressures from people they love .... to become truly free.
Free, what a beautiful word!
Thanks in advance, and I have enjoyed reading all your recent posts on-line.
Vanessa
in the end the realisation that what we have been doing just isn't working, and the way our family is (relate to one another) etc isn't what it COULD be, has pointed to that this is what we need and always needed.
I have been reading on-line extensively for a few weeks, and have been and read the archives of this list on-line. Great stuff.
TRUST - what a revelation the idea that children can be trusted with their own lives. Instinctively i agree with it, but habit is going to be a tough one to crack with LIVING it.
I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their children, and learning to trust.
Also....I'd love to hear others experiences with dealing with those people who make you doubt. (Should that be make you choose to doubt?LOL?) There is one person whose single comment steered me away from un-schooling for years, the comment being that a certain home-schooling family wouldn't "Amount to much" because their children never had to do anything/get out of bed etc.
I now completely challenge the notion of "Amounting to much" anyway, so that would no longer hold me back......, but another difficulty I have really felt over the years is that this same person has children who are like a living advertisement for the wonders of school without any of the negatives. She is a close family member and our children are the same age. it always felt very confronting that their children thrived and loved school and were creative and energetic and busy and happy, and we sort of puddled around at home doing not much. there was like a "look what your kids are missing" theme to much of our interaction, not always spoken.
Looking back this undermined my confidence, and i did much academics with them early out of fear/pressure/something to prove.
I HAVE learned from that. I AM determined to change, but I wanted to hear from others who have overcome doubts and subtle pressures from people they love .... to become truly free.
Free, what a beautiful word!
Thanks in advance, and I have enjoyed reading all your recent posts on-line.
Vanessa
lalow66
" TRUST - what a revelation the idea that children can be trusted with their own lives. Instinctively i agree with it, but habit is going to be a tough one to crack with LIVING it.
Today, my kids and I were at the park. My son Ben who is 7 really didnt want to be there.. he typically prefers to stay home, but my other 3 had wanted to go so I sweetened the proposal by promising to go to get ice cream/ slushes at sonic on the way home. Sonic is a drive thru restaurant that has a 1/2 price deal from 2-4 in the afternoon on their drinks and slushes. So he agreed. Before we left the park he mentioned that he wanted a rootbeer float. I told him I didnt think that was a good idea since it has icecream in it (he is allergic to milk, but has had these from Sonic in the past-with no difficulty). And I said I thought he should get a slush. He pouted for a second and said, "Why dont you trust me to know what I can have?"
>"
> I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their children, and learning to trust.
Today, my kids and I were at the park. My son Ben who is 7 really didnt want to be there.. he typically prefers to stay home, but my other 3 had wanted to go so I sweetened the proposal by promising to go to get ice cream/ slushes at sonic on the way home. Sonic is a drive thru restaurant that has a 1/2 price deal from 2-4 in the afternoon on their drinks and slushes. So he agreed. Before we left the park he mentioned that he wanted a rootbeer float. I told him I didnt think that was a good idea since it has icecream in it (he is allergic to milk, but has had these from Sonic in the past-with no difficulty). And I said I thought he should get a slush. He pouted for a second and said, "Why dont you trust me to know what I can have?"
Vidyut Kale
" I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their
children, and learning to trust."
Sandra's site has loads of stories ;) This page may be the kind of stories
it seems you were looking for. http://sandradodd.com/gettingit Just link
surf around if not.
One story that really touched me was shared by Marina recently :
On Saturday night my 14 year old son and I went out and bought snacks. Aswe
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children, and learning to trust."
Sandra's site has loads of stories ;) This page may be the kind of stories
it seems you were looking for. http://sandradodd.com/gettingit Just link
surf around if not.
One story that really touched me was shared by Marina recently :
On Saturday night my 14 year old son and I went out and bought snacks. Aswe
> picked out snacks my son chatted about what movie we might watch, pickedoutCheers!
> raw veggies for a crudit�s plate, a bag of cheese popcorn, and adessert.
> Cashiers and other shoppers kept catching my eye and smiling. My son
> istaller than me, has long hair and was dressed kind like a �cool� kid.
> Whenhe calls me �mom� it has a certain tenderness in the tone�kind of the
> toneI use when I call one of the boys �honey� or �sweetie�. He often calls
> meMarina. I answer to both, lol.
> I realized as we walked home that people thought it is incongruous to see
> aTeen Boy out with his ma. I think that is in part about
> unschooling�theaffectionate respectful dialogue between parent and child. As
> we wereleaving people were gaping as he sweetly asked me to switch bags with
> him,so I could carry the lighter one [image: :)]
> In the past when someone with a younger child in tow has asked for
> �thesecret� to all this respect I seem to receive I notice they can�t *hear*
> theanswer. I gave a lot of respect, choices and did a lot of trusting.
> Ididn�t ignore him. I was the resource. I listened, advised, and loved
> andlaughed and supported. Unschooling is license, it isn�t
> throwingconventional social rules out the window, but it is about taking
> arespectful approach to introducing social rules, and information. Its
> abouta dialogue and about working together. You are responsible for the
> child,but also responsible to the child.
> Marina
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
Hi Vanessa,
With regard to learning to trust your kids, it is truly amazing and transforming to see how quickly your efforts will be rewarded with closer, friendlier and more peaceful relationships with your kids. My kids are young (5 and nearly 3) but the idea of trusting them starts at birth. In letting go of my desire to control them, to have my own way, I have been able to see that another person's ideas and plans are just as valid as mine.
For example, I used to choose my daughter's clothes each day and insist she wear what I chose. One day I forced her to wear a particular pair of shorts even though she was crying and saying she didn't want to. It seems unbelievable to me now that I would prioritise a pair of shorts over my daughter's happiness. That same day I vowed never to force my choice of clothing on her EVER. I trust her to choose her own clothes, and I just provide factual information as to the weather or activities we will be doing.
Importantly, I have come to fully trust this whole philosophy of children having choices, to the point that I do not fear others' judgement. (That's not to say my kids can do whatever with no regard for others.) As long as we are doing no harm, my children's choices are far more important to me than other people's opinions. For example, my almost 3 year old is still breastfeeding, and when we were out at a restaurant with my dad and step-mother recently, they told me I should stop. Although I was annoyed, I simply said in a mild tone, "Why?" Their only answer was that it was "time to stop". Their vague discomfort and lack of information about the benefits of long-term breastfeeding in no way affects my happiness and willingness to meet my baby's needs.
With regard to your friend who has 'model' school children and thinks that unschoolers never have to get out of bed, well the whole premise of her critique is absurd. Unschooling as discussed on this list is about active interesting parents offering lots of choices to their kids. It's about a life rich in opportunities, discussion, ideas, fun. As the peace and joyfulness of an unschooling life becomes established in your home, your confidence will grow and others' opinions will lose their power over you. You can still be open to new ideas, but with a deep-seated sense of assurance that your relationship with your kids comes first.
By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more compassion. You can do this!
Claire
With regard to learning to trust your kids, it is truly amazing and transforming to see how quickly your efforts will be rewarded with closer, friendlier and more peaceful relationships with your kids. My kids are young (5 and nearly 3) but the idea of trusting them starts at birth. In letting go of my desire to control them, to have my own way, I have been able to see that another person's ideas and plans are just as valid as mine.
For example, I used to choose my daughter's clothes each day and insist she wear what I chose. One day I forced her to wear a particular pair of shorts even though she was crying and saying she didn't want to. It seems unbelievable to me now that I would prioritise a pair of shorts over my daughter's happiness. That same day I vowed never to force my choice of clothing on her EVER. I trust her to choose her own clothes, and I just provide factual information as to the weather or activities we will be doing.
Importantly, I have come to fully trust this whole philosophy of children having choices, to the point that I do not fear others' judgement. (That's not to say my kids can do whatever with no regard for others.) As long as we are doing no harm, my children's choices are far more important to me than other people's opinions. For example, my almost 3 year old is still breastfeeding, and when we were out at a restaurant with my dad and step-mother recently, they told me I should stop. Although I was annoyed, I simply said in a mild tone, "Why?" Their only answer was that it was "time to stop". Their vague discomfort and lack of information about the benefits of long-term breastfeeding in no way affects my happiness and willingness to meet my baby's needs.
With regard to your friend who has 'model' school children and thinks that unschoolers never have to get out of bed, well the whole premise of her critique is absurd. Unschooling as discussed on this list is about active interesting parents offering lots of choices to their kids. It's about a life rich in opportunities, discussion, ideas, fun. As the peace and joyfulness of an unschooling life becomes established in your home, your confidence will grow and others' opinions will lose their power over you. You can still be open to new ideas, but with a deep-seated sense of assurance that your relationship with your kids comes first.
By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more compassion. You can do this!
Claire
keetry
--- In [email protected], Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
With my younger boys I get comments and questions about them being so "well-behaved", i.e. not crying, not running all over the place even though they aren't strapped into a cart. When I tell people it', s because I don't try to control them, I try to treat them with respect and give them choices as much as possible, they look at me like I have two heads. I don't understand why they ask the question if they don't want to hear the answer.
With my oldest son, there is a such a huge difference in his attitude from when he was younger and had to go places and do things with me and a couple of years later when he had the choice. Now he sometimes chooses to do things that he doesn't really want to just so he can be with us. Me: "Hey, we're going to the museum. Want to go?" Him: "Not really but sure." I'm sure some of this has to do with maturing but not all of it. I see his adult friends who's parents still try to control them and I see and hear how what they think and how they feel about their parents. It's really sad.
My mother drives me crazy with the criticisms. She was a public high school teacher for many years. She always wants to know when I'm going to start working with my younger children even though the oldest isn't even required to attend school yet. She says they'll be idiots and won't be able to do Algebra (haha!). She says, "Look how unschooling has ruined your oldest." I always find that funny since he's mostly a product of the public school system in the USA. And how exactly is he ruined? He decided to get his GED at 18, the same age he would've been if he had graduated from high school on time. He's now taking classes at the community college. He wants to get a degree in Culinary Arts and own his own restaurant one day. He's talked about that since he was 12.
I'm not sure how I deal with the criticism. Sometimes I can just ignore it. Let things just go in one ear and out the other and move on to the next topic of conversation. Sometimes I try to explain how I see things, how I think things will work out, what the end result is (there's never really an end result, imo
Alysia
>I run into this a lot. My 2 younger boys are 2 and 6 years old. I also have a 19 year old son who was in public school until he was 12. Once I pulled him out of public school we went back and forth between trying to follow text books and unschooling for a couple of years. I didn't really completely free us with radical unschooling until he was probably 16 or 17.
> In the past when someone with a younger child in tow has asked for
> > "thesecret" to all this respect I seem to receive I notice they can't *hear*
> > theanswer. I gave a lot of respect, choices and did a lot of trusting.
> > Ididn't ignore him. I was the resource. I listened, advised, and loved
> > andlaughed and supported.
> > Marina
With my younger boys I get comments and questions about them being so "well-behaved", i.e. not crying, not running all over the place even though they aren't strapped into a cart. When I tell people it', s because I don't try to control them, I try to treat them with respect and give them choices as much as possible, they look at me like I have two heads. I don't understand why they ask the question if they don't want to hear the answer.
With my oldest son, there is a such a huge difference in his attitude from when he was younger and had to go places and do things with me and a couple of years later when he had the choice. Now he sometimes chooses to do things that he doesn't really want to just so he can be with us. Me: "Hey, we're going to the museum. Want to go?" Him: "Not really but sure." I'm sure some of this has to do with maturing but not all of it. I see his adult friends who's parents still try to control them and I see and hear how what they think and how they feel about their parents. It's really sad.
My mother drives me crazy with the criticisms. She was a public high school teacher for many years. She always wants to know when I'm going to start working with my younger children even though the oldest isn't even required to attend school yet. She says they'll be idiots and won't be able to do Algebra (haha!). She says, "Look how unschooling has ruined your oldest." I always find that funny since he's mostly a product of the public school system in the USA. And how exactly is he ruined? He decided to get his GED at 18, the same age he would've been if he had graduated from high school on time. He's now taking classes at the community college. He wants to get a degree in Culinary Arts and own his own restaurant one day. He's talked about that since he was 12.
I'm not sure how I deal with the criticism. Sometimes I can just ignore it. Let things just go in one ear and out the other and move on to the next topic of conversation. Sometimes I try to explain how I see things, how I think things will work out, what the end result is (there's never really an end result, imo
Alysia
keetry
I don't know what I did but I accidentally posted my message before finishing it. I think my hand hits the mousepad on my laptop sometimes and makes crazy things happen. LOL
Anyway, I think I was talking about how I handle criticism and ended with trying to explain my position. That usually doesn't work so I don't do that much anymore. Sometimes it gets to me and get worried about the future. I just sit with that worry, feel it, think about it, all the way through. School is no guarantee that children will be "successful", whatever that may be. I always end back to the idea that it's not about academics for me. It's about having a loving, happy, warm relationship with my children. I know what it's like to have a conventionally parented, schooled child who hates me. That child is the one that everyone else in my family looks at as a failure. When asked once why he didn't take pride in the things he did, he said, "School took all the pride out of me." I don't want that for or with any of my other children.
Alysia
Anyway, I think I was talking about how I handle criticism and ended with trying to explain my position. That usually doesn't work so I don't do that much anymore. Sometimes it gets to me and get worried about the future. I just sit with that worry, feel it, think about it, all the way through. School is no guarantee that children will be "successful", whatever that may be. I always end back to the idea that it's not about academics for me. It's about having a loving, happy, warm relationship with my children. I know what it's like to have a conventionally parented, schooled child who hates me. That child is the one that everyone else in my family looks at as a failure. When asked once why he didn't take pride in the things he did, he said, "School took all the pride out of me." I don't want that for or with any of my other children.
Alysia
Pam Sorooshian
Because this was at the end of Claire's post, I thought some people
might not see it. It is so good:
***** Unschooling as discussed on this list is about active interesting
parents offering lots of choices to their kids. It's about a life rich
in opportunities, discussion, ideas, fun. As the peace and joyfulness of
an unschooling life becomes established in your home, your confidence
will grow and others' opinions will lose their power over you. You can
still be open to new ideas, but with a deep-seated sense of assurance
that your relationship with your kids comes first.
By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't
try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small
but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more
compassion. You can do this!*****
-pam
might not see it. It is so good:
***** Unschooling as discussed on this list is about active interesting
parents offering lots of choices to their kids. It's about a life rich
in opportunities, discussion, ideas, fun. As the peace and joyfulness of
an unschooling life becomes established in your home, your confidence
will grow and others' opinions will lose their power over you. You can
still be open to new ideas, but with a deep-seated sense of assurance
that your relationship with your kids comes first.
By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't
try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small
but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more
compassion. You can do this!*****
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
***but another difficulty I have really felt over the years is that this same person has children who are like a living advertisement for the wonders of school without any of the negatives. She is a close family member and our children are the same age. it always felt very confronting that their children thrived and loved school and were creative and energetic and busy and happy, and we sort of puddled around at home doing not much.***
Every time I hear stories like that, I wonder 2 things... First, how old are the kids and have they reached teen years, and secondly, how is the relationship between parent and child and child and intimate partner/other. I have seen successful school kids, I myself was one, who exhibited all the good sides without all the negative sides, but I have to say, even though I have a decent relationship with my parents, it's nothing like the one I have with my daughter. NOTHING! I repeated that because, even the best parent/child relationship of a school child and her parents still has a ton of barriers that and unschooling child won't have with her parents. There are things that I still won't talk to my mother about, things that my own daughter is quite open about because she has never had a reason to hide anything from me or to have a life separate from me.
School life creates a need to keep family life separate. There is this weird disconnect that happens to school kids and their parents, even the very best of them.
Sometimes school kids that are hugely active and involved in school life don't continue beyond school. Once they are done with school, they are done with all that school entails, all that busy active stuff, etc. It really depends and only time will tell. Sometimes all that action creates burn out and sometimes a person will continue on with active stuff.
***I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their children, and learning to trust.***
Keep reading here for sure! I have a teenager who I absolutely trust. She's smart and fun and kind and sweet. I know that if she says she's going to do something, she will, or that if she's going to be somewhere she'll be there. I have mostly good things to say about her, and the bad things are just plain old human nature things that we all do sometimes. The trust thing though, is probably the biggest factor that contributes to how wonderful she is and how wonderful our relationship is!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Every time I hear stories like that, I wonder 2 things... First, how old are the kids and have they reached teen years, and secondly, how is the relationship between parent and child and child and intimate partner/other. I have seen successful school kids, I myself was one, who exhibited all the good sides without all the negative sides, but I have to say, even though I have a decent relationship with my parents, it's nothing like the one I have with my daughter. NOTHING! I repeated that because, even the best parent/child relationship of a school child and her parents still has a ton of barriers that and unschooling child won't have with her parents. There are things that I still won't talk to my mother about, things that my own daughter is quite open about because she has never had a reason to hide anything from me or to have a life separate from me.
School life creates a need to keep family life separate. There is this weird disconnect that happens to school kids and their parents, even the very best of them.
Sometimes school kids that are hugely active and involved in school life don't continue beyond school. Once they are done with school, they are done with all that school entails, all that busy active stuff, etc. It really depends and only time will tell. Sometimes all that action creates burn out and sometimes a person will continue on with active stuff.
***I DESPERATELY want to hear stories from others about trusting their children, and learning to trust.***
Keep reading here for sure! I have a teenager who I absolutely trust. She's smart and fun and kind and sweet. I know that if she says she's going to do something, she will, or that if she's going to be somewhere she'll be there. I have mostly good things to say about her, and the bad things are just plain old human nature things that we all do sometimes. The trust thing though, is probably the biggest factor that contributes to how wonderful she is and how wonderful our relationship is!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
*** He pouted for a second and said, "Why dont you trust me to know what I can have?" ***
And did you trust him? Did you let him get what he wanted? Those are the little things that build up to the bigger things!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And did you trust him? Did you let him get what he wanted? Those are the little things that build up to the bigger things!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> ***but another difficulty I have really felt over the years is thatTeens? How old? The odds against them get higher as the kids get older.
> this same person has children who are like a living advertisement for
> the wonders of school without any of the negatives. She is a close
> family member and our children are the same age. it always felt very
> confronting that their children thrived and loved school and were
> creative and energetic and busy and happy, and we sort of puddled
> around at home doing not much.***
But - it is just odds. Not every family that unschools will be super
close and not every family with school kids will have problems. I know a
family with kids who went to school and they were very vested in it. The
parents are fairly kind and gentle, but they have rules and regulations
about bed times and homework and video games, etc. The kids are in their
early twenties and I see them as having very sweet and loving
relationships with their parents. On the other hand, they did sneak
around just a bit - in the "normal" teen/young adult ways. The son would
say he was one place when he really was somewhere else that he knew his
parents disapproved of. Daughter lied about having alcohol at a party.
The kids are very compliant types and so the rules and regulations were
very much accepted and not struggled against, almost at all. And, on top
of that, they aren't super high energy kids who make a lot of demands -
the whole family is very similar in their easygoing temperaments.
Another family I know seems to be like that - their daughters are
younger - 18 and 16 or so. They get along well with their parents and
seem to really enjoy their family life a lot. But, the oldest is
deciding which college to go to - accepted by a number of them - and she
is insistent that she wants to get away from home. That's different than
how my kids felt - they'd rather live at home if possible - the idea of
"getting out" isn't something they relate to when their friends talk
about it.
So - there is a difference. But it doesn't mean schooled kids will
always be a mess or even not very cool and wonderful people with close
and happy families.
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
***I always end back to the idea that it's not about academics for me. It's about having a loving, happy, warm relationship with my children.***
That's how it is for me these days too! When I first started, I had to find a way to reconcile the academics, to make sure that I was actually educating my children. It was all internal work for me, I found the learning in everything and once I could do that, then all the other stuff followed. As my oldest gets older and I see schooled kids her age, I KNOW it's the relationship that counts bigger than all the other stuff! Especially since she's at home all the time, it would be pretty horrible if we didn't get along well. I doubt very much she could learn anything from me if we didn't have a happy, loving, warm relationship. I wouldn't be much of an influence in her life in the way that an unschooling parent should be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's how it is for me these days too! When I first started, I had to find a way to reconcile the academics, to make sure that I was actually educating my children. It was all internal work for me, I found the learning in everything and once I could do that, then all the other stuff followed. As my oldest gets older and I see schooled kids her age, I KNOW it's the relationship that counts bigger than all the other stuff! Especially since she's at home all the time, it would be pretty horrible if we didn't get along well. I doubt very much she could learn anything from me if we didn't have a happy, loving, warm relationship. I wouldn't be much of an influence in her life in the way that an unschooling parent should be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vanessa Grant
>>>By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more compassion. You can do this!<<<
Thank-you,
I deeply appreciate this comment - as well as the other things people shared.
I must say the tone of this list is incrediable - if this is un-schooling bring it on I say!
Yes, I have decided already to start with one thing at a time, we won't drop everything over-night, I think I would feel helplessley adrift.
Yesterday I just started wsith a few letting go things. I told the kids they could have as much time on the computer as they wanted. (They used to have a turn each alternate days). With five who use it though, I doubt they will nessecarily get saturated enough with it to stop thinking it is any more special than anything else?
However I was encouraged to see a steady stream of children doing all manner of other things throughout the day.
I have been scrawling in a notebook all my doubts, fears, pros/cons...processing .....when my children saw me doing that two of them decided to pull out an notebook and start writing too. I have already noticed that the best way to inspire them is just to enjoy something myself.
I wrote yesterday, "IT seems that my children know exactly how to un-school. I don't need to worry about them, it is me who needs to learn how!"
Letting go control seems to be the biggest difficulty.
By the way i am also encouraged to see there are quite a few whose spouses are not so sure about all this - that is how it is here. Infact I haven't been discussing it with him, because I have learned that over the years, convincing him of anything is not the way to go, but if he sees us all happy and doing fine he will also be happy with things.
Ok, thanks,
Vanessa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow66
"
> *** He pouted for a second and said, "Why dont you trust me to know what I can have?" ***yes, and I should have said, I did and I do trust him. i just need reminders every once in a while.
>
> And did you trust him? Did you let him get what he wanted? Those are the little things that build up to the bigger things!
> "
Ana Maria Bruce
________________________________
From: Vanessa Grant <vanessa@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 3:01:33 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Trust.....and those people who make us doubt....
Thank-you,
I deeply appreciate this comment - as well as the other things people shared.
I must say the tone of this list is incrediable - if this is un-schooling bring it on I say!
Yes, I have decided already to start with one thing at a time, we won't drop everything over-night, I think I would feel helplessley adrift.
Yesterday I just started wsith a few letting go things. I told the kids they could have as much time on the computer as they wanted. (They used to have a turn each alternate days). With five who use it though, I doubt they will nessecarily get saturated enough with it to stop thinking it is any more special than anything else?
However I was encouraged to see a steady stream of children doing all manner of other things throughout the day.
I have been scrawling in a notebook all my doubts, fears, pros/cons... processing .....when my children saw me doing that two of them decided to pull out an notebook and start writing too. I have already noticed that the best way to inspire them is just to enjoy something myself.
I wrote yesterday, "IT seems that my children know exactly how to un-school. I don't need to worry about them, it is me who needs to learn how!"
Letting go control seems to be the biggest difficulty.
By the way i am also encouraged to see there are quite a few whose spouses are not so sure about all this - that is how it is here. Infact I haven't been discussing it with him, because I have learned that over the years, convincing him of anything is not the way to go, but if he sees us all happy and doing fine he will also be happy with things.
Ok, thanks,
Vanessa
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Vanessa Grant <vanessa@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 3:01:33 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Trust.....and those people who make us doubt....
>>>By the way, it's taken me well over 2 years to reach this point. Don't try to suddenly be the perfect unschooler right now today. Take small but steady steps towards better relationships, more understanding, more compassion. You can do this!<<<
Thank-you,
I deeply appreciate this comment - as well as the other things people shared.
I must say the tone of this list is incrediable - if this is un-schooling bring it on I say!
Yes, I have decided already to start with one thing at a time, we won't drop everything over-night, I think I would feel helplessley adrift.
Yesterday I just started wsith a few letting go things. I told the kids they could have as much time on the computer as they wanted. (They used to have a turn each alternate days). With five who use it though, I doubt they will nessecarily get saturated enough with it to stop thinking it is any more special than anything else?
However I was encouraged to see a steady stream of children doing all manner of other things throughout the day.
I have been scrawling in a notebook all my doubts, fears, pros/cons... processing .....when my children saw me doing that two of them decided to pull out an notebook and start writing too. I have already noticed that the best way to inspire them is just to enjoy something myself.
I wrote yesterday, "IT seems that my children know exactly how to un-school. I don't need to worry about them, it is me who needs to learn how!"
Letting go control seems to be the biggest difficulty.
By the way i am also encouraged to see there are quite a few whose spouses are not so sure about all this - that is how it is here. Infact I haven't been discussing it with him, because I have learned that over the years, convincing him of anything is not the way to go, but if he sees us all happy and doing fine he will also be happy with things.
Ok, thanks,
Vanessa
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Vanessa Grant" <vanessa@...> wrote:
Alysia
> By the way i am also encouraged to see there are quite a few whose spouses are not so sure about all this - that is how it is here. Infact I haven't been discussing it with him, because I have learned that over the years, convincing him of anything is not the way to go, but if he sees us all happy and doing fine he will also be happy with things.My husband used to be very opposed to unschooling and couldn't even fathom radical unschooling. We've been home/unschooling for about 5 years now. The other day I was telling him about some of my worries and insecurities about my ability to homeschool. His response to me was something along the lines of, "As long as the children are happy and healthy you are doing a good job." He's come along way from being worried about when they will do this and when they'll do that and how they'll learn what they need to know unless they are taught. He's come to realize that as long as they are loved and feel safe they will learn as they go. Now he tells all his Marine Corps buddies how unschooling really does work.
>
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=-Now he tells all his Marine Corps buddies how unschooling really
does work.-=-
For anyone who has a husband who might prefer the words of other dads
to the crazy ideas of moms, try these:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2010/02/father-of-six-year-old-changes-his-mind.html
(a naval officer wrote that...)
http://seanheritage.blogspot.com/2010/02/waterpark-educational-development-and.html
and a collection:
http://sandradodd.com/dads
with something newly linked by Jeff Sabo
Also there's a talk by Jeff Sabo from last fall's Good Vibrations
Unschooling Conference in San Diego (and some others from that
conference) newly available.
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com/2010/04/sound-files-from-san-diego-conference.html
Sandra
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does work.-=-
For anyone who has a husband who might prefer the words of other dads
to the crazy ideas of moms, try these:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2010/02/father-of-six-year-old-changes-his-mind.html
(a naval officer wrote that...)
http://seanheritage.blogspot.com/2010/02/waterpark-educational-development-and.html
and a collection:
http://sandradodd.com/dads
with something newly linked by Jeff Sabo
Also there's a talk by Jeff Sabo from last fall's Good Vibrations
Unschooling Conference in San Diego (and some others from that
conference) newly available.
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com/2010/04/sound-files-from-san-diego-conference.html
Sandra
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Ana Maria Bruce
/// TRUST - what a revelation the idea that children can be trusted with their own lives. Instinctively i agree with it, but habit is going to be a tough one to crack with LIVING it.///
When trust becomes your habit, then you don't have to crack an old habit, because the new habit automatically becomes the habit.
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When trust becomes your habit, then you don't have to crack an old habit, because the new habit automatically becomes the habit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "cheesyv2002" <vanessa@...> wrote:
That would describe my now grown up daughter Bronwyn, who was a "straight A" student through 13 years of school, Dux of the Year, President of the Student Council, has three university degrees (LLB (Hons), BSc, BA) is an alumni of both the University of Canberra (and had her face on one their recruitment posters while she was there) and of the Australian National University (the 11th highest ranked university in the world); who last December became a Member of the Supreme Court of New South Wales at the age of 24; who is not only bright but popular too, gregarious, adventurous, creative, energetic, busy - all of that.
"and we sort of puddled around at home doing not much."
That would describe the preferred lifestyle of my now teenage son Patrick, who has mostly spent his days since he 'dropped out' of school more than seven years ago playing videogames, exploring the internet, chilling out on the deck with me and stuff like that - an unstructured improvisational life - going out into the world if he feels like it, not if he doesn't. As I write, he's sitting in an armchair with one of our cats curled up on his lap engrossed in a sudoku puzzle as relaxed and content as can be.
My children's lives have been a fascinating juxtaposition.
Will my son amount to something? Well, he already IS something, but in terms of will he be successful in the world as an adult - yes, of course. But not in the same way as his sister. And that's the point. My wife and I have had only the same general intention with both of our children, that they should grow up to be "successful adults" according to their own definition of success and be happy in the journey. The choices they've made have been different because the circumstances of their lives have been different.
I'm happy that they're both lovely, lovely people.
Bob
>"another difficulty I have really felt over the years is that this same person has children who are like a living advertisement for the wonders of school without any of the negatives. ... it always felt very confronting that their children thrived and loved school and were creative and energetic and busy and happy,"
That would describe my now grown up daughter Bronwyn, who was a "straight A" student through 13 years of school, Dux of the Year, President of the Student Council, has three university degrees (LLB (Hons), BSc, BA) is an alumni of both the University of Canberra (and had her face on one their recruitment posters while she was there) and of the Australian National University (the 11th highest ranked university in the world); who last December became a Member of the Supreme Court of New South Wales at the age of 24; who is not only bright but popular too, gregarious, adventurous, creative, energetic, busy - all of that.
"and we sort of puddled around at home doing not much."
That would describe the preferred lifestyle of my now teenage son Patrick, who has mostly spent his days since he 'dropped out' of school more than seven years ago playing videogames, exploring the internet, chilling out on the deck with me and stuff like that - an unstructured improvisational life - going out into the world if he feels like it, not if he doesn't. As I write, he's sitting in an armchair with one of our cats curled up on his lap engrossed in a sudoku puzzle as relaxed and content as can be.
My children's lives have been a fascinating juxtaposition.
Will my son amount to something? Well, he already IS something, but in terms of will he be successful in the world as an adult - yes, of course. But not in the same way as his sister. And that's the point. My wife and I have had only the same general intention with both of our children, that they should grow up to be "successful adults" according to their own definition of success and be happy in the journey. The choices they've made have been different because the circumstances of their lives have been different.
I'm happy that they're both lovely, lovely people.
Bob
Sandra Dodd
-=-That would describe my now grown up daughter Bronwyn, who was a
"straight A" student through 13 years of school, Dux of the Year,
President of the Student Council, has three university degrees (LLB
(Hons), BSc, BA) is an alumni of both the University of Canberra (and
had her face on one their recruitment posters while she was there) and
of the Australian National University (the 11th highest ranked
university in the world); who last December became a Member of the
Supreme Court of New South Wales at the age of 24; who is not only
bright but popular too, gregarious, adventurous, creative, energetic,
busy - all of that. -=-
It's hard not to be impressed by that, but it's like winning a
lottery, in a way, if inclination, talent and work could help one win
a lottery.
For each impressive position, there are some number (sometimes
billions) of people who are not-that. One one person can be president
of the student council at any one time. Only some number of people
can be on the supreme court of NSW at the same time (48, or 52; looked
it up). Only one person gets the gold medal in speed skating at any
one Olympics, no matter how fast other people are other days.
For me the most impressive thing in Bob's comparison of his offspring
is that the younger one is calm and accepting and not reacting full
time to his sister's impressive collection of honors.
Only one person can be Dux of the Year, but contentment and happiness
can belong to tons of people at the same time.
I never lose lotteries because I never buy tickets. <g>
Those who aren't competing can't "lose" the honors. (And I know some
people get honors without competing; I have. And then others' who
WERE competing for them get even more frustrated.)
I didn't expect to see the world so differently. This natural
learning/unschooling is some kind of big deal, philosophically
speaking. :-)
Sandra
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"straight A" student through 13 years of school, Dux of the Year,
President of the Student Council, has three university degrees (LLB
(Hons), BSc, BA) is an alumni of both the University of Canberra (and
had her face on one their recruitment posters while she was there) and
of the Australian National University (the 11th highest ranked
university in the world); who last December became a Member of the
Supreme Court of New South Wales at the age of 24; who is not only
bright but popular too, gregarious, adventurous, creative, energetic,
busy - all of that. -=-
It's hard not to be impressed by that, but it's like winning a
lottery, in a way, if inclination, talent and work could help one win
a lottery.
For each impressive position, there are some number (sometimes
billions) of people who are not-that. One one person can be president
of the student council at any one time. Only some number of people
can be on the supreme court of NSW at the same time (48, or 52; looked
it up). Only one person gets the gold medal in speed skating at any
one Olympics, no matter how fast other people are other days.
For me the most impressive thing in Bob's comparison of his offspring
is that the younger one is calm and accepting and not reacting full
time to his sister's impressive collection of honors.
Only one person can be Dux of the Year, but contentment and happiness
can belong to tons of people at the same time.
I never lose lotteries because I never buy tickets. <g>
Those who aren't competing can't "lose" the honors. (And I know some
people get honors without competing; I have. And then others' who
WERE competing for them get even more frustrated.)
I didn't expect to see the world so differently. This natural
learning/unschooling is some kind of big deal, philosophically
speaking. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Bob
>It was fascinating to watch them together in the years after Pat was out of school and Bronnie was still at home. She was the busy university student always working on her next assignment and he was the laid back videogamer totally doing his own thing and they both behaved as if it was all perfectly normal. I was surprised by that. I have to remind myself sometimes that they're not just "my children", they have a relationship with each other that's nothing to do with their parents, and it always has been a very positive one. Bronnie was at her brother's birth, when she was ten years old, and watched him come out into the world. Maybe that was a "bonding" moment. As far as I'm aware, Pat has been genuinely happy for his sister whenever she's added another achievement to her "CV" and not in the least bit envious. I do know that neither my wife nor I have ever said to him, "You should be more like your sister"! We want him to be who he is.
>
>
> For me the most impressive thing in Bob's comparison of his offspring
> is that the younger one is calm and accepting and not reacting full
> time to his sister's impressive collection of honors.
>Absolutely. And those are the things that are most important. I would be the first to say that my daughter's achievements are only one way of measuring "success" and it's a narrow way that by definition excludes most people. For me, my daughter's achievements have been an unexpected bonus - if it had all never happened, how I feel about her as a person wouldn't be any different. That's the point I was trying to make: I have, in my two children, one who is the epitome of what parents with "social aspirations" want their children to be like and one who is the epitome of what parents with social aspirations don't want their children to be like and I've found that it really doesn't matter. It's the people my children are that are their "success stories".
> Only one person can be Dux of the Year, but contentment and happiness
> can belong to tons of people at the same time.
>
>
Bob