Unschooling & mindfulness
myung-jin kang
Given the recent discussions about NVC, I am wondering if mindfulness and unschooling are compatible. (NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults to name their feelings with needs and request. For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their feelings. I received clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.) Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga. I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain development and emotional intelligence.
All the best,
M.J.
http://mjmiaoren.wordpress.com/ - Traveling Natural Momma Blog
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalParentingLA/
All the best,
M.J.
http://mjmiaoren.wordpress.com/ - Traveling Natural Momma Blog
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalParentingLA/
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 19, 2010, at 11:30 PM, myung-jin kang wrote:
comes from others who have found pieces that work with their
unschooling and bring those ideas to unschooling discussions.
The problem with combining any two philosophies is that individual
practices and principles from each might work well together, the
goals aren't necessarily compatible. So when facing some problem one
philosophy will pull one way and the other will pull another. Both
answers will have a rightness to them and it won't be clear why the
confusion.
That's the problem parents who practice conventional parenting face.
Conventional parenting is sort of a "do what's best for the kids"
philosophy. But "best" isn't clearly defined and parents end up
pulling bits and pieces from lots of different philosophies with
incompatible goals.
As another example, it recently struck me that some people who've
adopted natural living as their philosophy will also adopt natural
learning. They'll sometimes call what they're doing unschooling
because natural learning and unschooling seem like the same thing.
And they label their life philosophy unschooling probably because
natural learning is the piece of their lives that sets them the
furthest from mainstream so it seems like the central part.
The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophies
aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world
to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests
-- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys --
lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome"
she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.
It's probably easier and clearer to focus on one philosophy and add
practices and ideas from other philosophies that help it work even
better.
think it muddies understanding to lump them together because of that.
Mindfulness, NVC and attachment parenting are all intended for
different purposes.
Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment.
NVC is intended, as someone recently pointed out, was to reach a
feeling of fairness between two groups who aren't necessarily working
towards a better relationship. Attachment parenting was originally a
way to enhance the mother child bond by the mother becoming sensitive
to the child's needs, but has become, as Sandra has pointed out, more
of a way for mothers to provide only what's "good" for their babies.
(The new leaning tends to fall apart when kids show signs their ideas
of what's "good" don't match mom's!)
Unschooling is about helping kids explore what interests them so
their learning is joyful.
All those have totally different goals.
being attentive to children's needs and helping them explore what
interests them. Parents can pull bits and pieces from other
philosophies that can make it easier for kids to explore joyfully.
(For instance, if a practice from mindfulness helped a mother accept
a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change
him, that would help unschooling.)
If a mom's focus shifts to a concrete goal like brain development or
emotional intelligence, that can interfere with unschooling when a
child's needs seem to turn away from those. The goals of "freedom to
explore" and "right pathway" won't mesh at all.
Joyce
> I am wondering if mindfulness and unschooling are compatibleProbably everything I know about mindfulness (the Buddhist practice)
comes from others who have found pieces that work with their
unschooling and bring those ideas to unschooling discussions.
The problem with combining any two philosophies is that individual
practices and principles from each might work well together, the
goals aren't necessarily compatible. So when facing some problem one
philosophy will pull one way and the other will pull another. Both
answers will have a rightness to them and it won't be clear why the
confusion.
That's the problem parents who practice conventional parenting face.
Conventional parenting is sort of a "do what's best for the kids"
philosophy. But "best" isn't clearly defined and parents end up
pulling bits and pieces from lots of different philosophies with
incompatible goals.
As another example, it recently struck me that some people who've
adopted natural living as their philosophy will also adopt natural
learning. They'll sometimes call what they're doing unschooling
because natural learning and unschooling seem like the same thing.
And they label their life philosophy unschooling probably because
natural learning is the piece of their lives that sets them the
furthest from mainstream so it seems like the central part.
The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophies
aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world
to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests
-- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys --
lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome"
she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.
It's probably easier and clearer to focus on one philosophy and add
practices and ideas from other philosophies that help it work even
better.
> NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults toThey may share some principles and have some features in common but I
> name their feelings with needs and request. For children under 5
> years of age, NVC would look like attachment parenting for infants
> and for toddlers, to help identify their feelings. I received
> clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.
>
think it muddies understanding to lump them together because of that.
Mindfulness, NVC and attachment parenting are all intended for
different purposes.
Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment.
NVC is intended, as someone recently pointed out, was to reach a
feeling of fairness between two groups who aren't necessarily working
towards a better relationship. Attachment parenting was originally a
way to enhance the mother child bond by the mother becoming sensitive
to the child's needs, but has become, as Sandra has pointed out, more
of a way for mothers to provide only what's "good" for their babies.
(The new leaning tends to fall apart when kids show signs their ideas
of what's "good" don't match mom's!)
Unschooling is about helping kids explore what interests them so
their learning is joyful.
All those have totally different goals.
> I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain developmentBrain development and emotional intelligence will be side effects of
> and emotional intelligence.
>
being attentive to children's needs and helping them explore what
interests them. Parents can pull bits and pieces from other
philosophies that can make it easier for kids to explore joyfully.
(For instance, if a practice from mindfulness helped a mother accept
a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change
him, that would help unschooling.)
If a mom's focus shifts to a concrete goal like brain development or
emotional intelligence, that can interfere with unschooling when a
child's needs seem to turn away from those. The goals of "freedom to
explore" and "right pathway" won't mesh at all.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-(For instance, if a practice from mindfulness helped a mother accept
a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change
him, that would help unschooling.)-=-
"A practice from mindfulness" suggests that mindfulness is a
philosophy or a set of guidelines or a church or something.
Mindfulness IS something on its own, without a bunch of parts to
choose from, without a bunch of practices within it.
-=-Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment.
-=-
Within Buddhism, as translated into English, that's true. They used
the very old English word "mindfulness" to serve as this or that other
words originally in Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or whatever.
In English, and as I've used it in unschooling discussions, it means
to pay attention to; to pay mind to; to have it in one's mind. to be
mindful.
Mindful of what? Not of Buddhism or enlightenment.
Mindful of one's beliefs and goals. Mindful of one's child,
directly. Attentive. Thoughtful. Aware.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change
him, that would help unschooling.)-=-
"A practice from mindfulness" suggests that mindfulness is a
philosophy or a set of guidelines or a church or something.
Mindfulness IS something on its own, without a bunch of parts to
choose from, without a bunch of practices within it.
-=-Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment.
-=-
Within Buddhism, as translated into English, that's true. They used
the very old English word "mindfulness" to serve as this or that other
words originally in Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or whatever.
In English, and as I've used it in unschooling discussions, it means
to pay attention to; to pay mind to; to have it in one's mind. to be
mindful.
Mindful of what? Not of Buddhism or enlightenment.
Mindful of one's beliefs and goals. Mindful of one's child,
directly. Attentive. Thoughtful. Aware.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-NVC does fall into mindfulness.-=-
What does that mean, "fall into mindfulness"? Into a category of
things that are mindful as opposed to things that aren't?
Mindfulness happens inside an individual's mind. That's the only
place and the only way it happens.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What does that mean, "fall into mindfulness"? Into a category of
things that are mindful as opposed to things that aren't?
Mindfulness happens inside an individual's mind. That's the only
place and the only way it happens.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 20, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question.
(She said "Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga." I'm
assuming she meant meditation.)
I think Ren brought Buddhist mindfulness up most and the pieces that
she brought to discussions that have most stuck with me are breathing
and what's closer to the English definition of mindfulness which is
being more present and aware of the kids and their needs that are in
the here and now.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "A practice from mindfulness" suggests that mindfulness is aI was guessing from her name she was asking about Buddhist
> philosophy or a set of guidelines or a church or something.
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question.
(She said "Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga." I'm
assuming she meant meditation.)
I think Ren brought Buddhist mindfulness up most and the pieces that
she brought to discussions that have most stuck with me are breathing
and what's closer to the English definition of mindfulness which is
being more present and aware of the kids and their needs that are in
the here and now.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was guessing from her name she was asking about Buddhist
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question. -=-
Right. (Well, I didn't look at her name, but right that it didn't
make sense in context.)
So rather than bending to try to understand other people's twisting of
plain English, I'd rather ask them to sort through and rephrase until
they're speaking normal English and then answer THAT question.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question. -=-
Right. (Well, I didn't look at her name, but right that it didn't
make sense in context.)
So rather than bending to try to understand other people's twisting of
plain English, I'd rather ask them to sort through and rephrase until
they're speaking normal English and then answer THAT question.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mkangj
> So rather than bending to try to understand other people's twisting ofHi Sandra,
> plain English, I'd rather ask them to sort through and rephrase until
> they're speaking normal English and then answer THAT question.
I was speaking plain, normal English. Joyce, thank you for catching my typo.
All the best,
M.J.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 20, 2010, at 1:10 PM, mkangj wrote:
older, common meaning: to be alert, to be attentive to. That's a
concept that's useful for unschooling so it's a good word to keep
here for it's usual sense.
Mindfulness was appropriated for the Buddhist concept . "Mindful" is
more of a label on a whole package of ideas. Unless someone's
somewhat familiar with what's in the package, using the label doesn't
convey much. The NVC label is the same.
The less jargon that's used, the clearer the communication. If the
box of Buddhist mindfulness is opened up rather than using the label,
examining the contents pretty much answers the question. A mom
striving for Buddhist enlightenment doesn't help kids learn. Nor does
a mom doing yoga. Nor a mom meditating. Some of the practices adopted
for stress relief in the west could help the mom destress. But a mom
trying to practice yoga with toddlers will probably add to her
stress! So it's more useful to talk specifically about ways to
destress that don't interfere with unschooling rather than to haul
out the whole Buddhist mindfulness box that has breathing intended to
help someone toward enlightenment in it ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was speaking plain, normal English.Actually fairly recent English. What Sandra means is mindful has an
older, common meaning: to be alert, to be attentive to. That's a
concept that's useful for unschooling so it's a good word to keep
here for it's usual sense.
Mindfulness was appropriated for the Buddhist concept . "Mindful" is
more of a label on a whole package of ideas. Unless someone's
somewhat familiar with what's in the package, using the label doesn't
convey much. The NVC label is the same.
The less jargon that's used, the clearer the communication. If the
box of Buddhist mindfulness is opened up rather than using the label,
examining the contents pretty much answers the question. A mom
striving for Buddhist enlightenment doesn't help kids learn. Nor does
a mom doing yoga. Nor a mom meditating. Some of the practices adopted
for stress relief in the west could help the mom destress. But a mom
trying to practice yoga with toddlers will probably add to her
stress! So it's more useful to talk specifically about ways to
destress that don't interfere with unschooling rather than to haul
out the whole Buddhist mindfulness box that has breathing intended to
help someone toward enlightenment in it ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>> Given the recent discussions about NVC, I am wondering if[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> mindfulness and unschooling are compatible.
>
>
> I think mindfulness and unschooling are indeed compatible.
> http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
>
>> For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment
>> parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their
>> feelings.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean "to help identify their feelings." For
> the parents to identify their children's feelings? For children to
> identify their own feelings?
>
> It doesn't take NVC to help kids figure out what their feelings are.
>
>> (NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults to
>> name their feelings with needs and request. I received
>> clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.)
>
>
> Do you mean NVC works clinically for adults? Or mindfulness works
> clinically for adults? Or that NVC "does fall into mindfulness"?
> I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.
>
> "Mindfulness" is generally considered to be a translation of
> Buddhist practice (in different languages: Pali "sati," Tibetan
> "trenpa, Chinese "nian"). However, the term been around a long time
> in the West. From Wikipedia, with footnotes: **The English term
> mindfulness has been in use for centuries, long predating its use in
> the Buddhist context. The OED defines it as "The state or quality of
> being mindful; attention; regard", with obsolete meanings of
> "memory" and "intention, purpose". This word was first recorded as
> myndfulness in 1530 (Palsgrave translates French pensee) , as
> mindfulnesse in 1561, and mindfulness in 1817.**
>
>> Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga.
>
>
> Mindfulness can be cultivated through meditation and yoga,
> certainly, but the practice of mindfulness itself does not "include"
> meditation and yoga.
>
>> I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain development
>> and emotional intelligence.
>
>
> I'm a bit confused about what you are asking or trying to get at.
> It seems (and I could be wrong!) that you want to say that NVC
> (being an apparent practice of mindfulness) is superior to
> unschooling, which, to you, is incompatible with mindfulness.
>
> Robin B.
Joanna
> >> For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachmentI think what Joyce said really clears this up--many of the ideas are compatible, and parts of one practice or philosophy can resonate well with others, but that the goals are different. The main thing that makes radical unschooling work is to really key into our children so that we can support and facilitate their learning and growth in their whole lives--including emotional.
> >> parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their
> >> feelings.
> >
NVC can support that for some people--helping to give them more insight into their own emotional states so that they are more able to empathize with their children. But it's not necessary for everyone--some parents don't need those skills, and it can end up being another layer that gets in the way rather than helping. Trying to impose someone else's (in this case, Marshall Rosenberg's) system can overlay their own and inhibit the natural connection they already have with their kids. Some people may get a lot out of it, and it can help improve their relationships, but others are awkwardly trying to use a script in a way that feels like ill-fitting clothes.
Joanna
Rebecca McClure
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.
In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). We also value purchasing toys, etc. that are most likely not to contain lead or other yucky things (although there are no guarantees). And we are long-time vegetarians (although my son is welcome to eat meat if/when he decides to) and choose organic as often as possible. Some of our values (and life choices) might make us look like "natural living" folks but I'm not sure it's an all encompassing life philosophy for our family.
We are, however, embracing a deeper unschooling philosophy in our family - one that extends to our whole life together. We strongly desire to support our child's interests and make them a priority. When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling philosophy, but it's worth it. It seems to be part of my internal "stretching" right now - and part of "saying yes" more often - and working things out, together, as a family when that yes just isn't forthcoming.
But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values? Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential conflicts?
That's a sincere question and one I've been wondering about. It might be that we will eventually say we are "natural learners" and leave it at that - or use the term "unschooling" to only talk about how we approach learning.
- Rebecca (who realizes that this may be a better question for the Unschooling Basics list but wanted to respond within the context of this thread)
> The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophiesI've been mulling over this since I first read it.
> aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world
> to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests
> -- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys --
> lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome"
> she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.
I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.
In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). We also value purchasing toys, etc. that are most likely not to contain lead or other yucky things (although there are no guarantees). And we are long-time vegetarians (although my son is welcome to eat meat if/when he decides to) and choose organic as often as possible. Some of our values (and life choices) might make us look like "natural living" folks but I'm not sure it's an all encompassing life philosophy for our family.
We are, however, embracing a deeper unschooling philosophy in our family - one that extends to our whole life together. We strongly desire to support our child's interests and make them a priority. When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling philosophy, but it's worth it. It seems to be part of my internal "stretching" right now - and part of "saying yes" more often - and working things out, together, as a family when that yes just isn't forthcoming.
But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values? Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential conflicts?
That's a sincere question and one I've been wondering about. It might be that we will eventually say we are "natural learners" and leave it at that - or use the term "unschooling" to only talk about how we approach learning.
- Rebecca (who realizes that this may be a better question for the Unschooling Basics list but wanted to respond within the context of this thread)
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/20/2010 10:10 AM, mkangj wrote:
you're backing out of the driveway, be mindful of the kids on their
bikes." You seem to be using it in a very specialized way that is going
to be understood by only a very small fraction of English speakers.
-pam
>In plain, normal English, "mindful" just means paying attention.. "When
> I was speaking plain, normal English. Joyce, thank you for catching my
> typo.
you're backing out of the driveway, be mindful of the kids on their
bikes." You seem to be using it in a very specialized way that is going
to be understood by only a very small fraction of English speakers.
-pam
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 21, 2010, at 1:08 AM, Rebecca McClure wrote:
values that support it. It's what someone turns to to help them
decide if an idea is right or wrong for them. It can apply to a part
of life, like a child's learning, or all of life. Generally I'd say a
philosophy is something you're willing to make your life more
difficult for in order to stick with it. How difficult someone is
willing to make their life depends. Some people are willing to die
for their philosophy. Or sacrifice their only son ;-)
Of the specific people I'm thinking of, natural living was definitely
a philosophy, if not a life philosophy. It formed the foundation of
their life choices. Organic food. Organic gardening. Composting. No
plastic. No commercial TV. I didn't get the feeling they'd die for it
though ;-)
Everyone also has a collection of values that shift in priority
depending on the situation that don't necessarily form a cohesive
whole. (And some *only* have a shifting collection.) It might be
labeled a personal philosophy though in my mind a personal philosophy
means someone has given the collection some thought. It's not just a
mish mosh with choices based on current mood ;-)
For instance I value being conservative with money, being green,
buying food with fewer chemicals. Which of those takes precedence
depends on the situation. May depend on whim. May depend on some
other value being more important (like saving time, for instance.)
see a bigger picture, feel like they have a goal.
depends where your priorities end up being. For instance if parents
value organic food and children exploring their interests, when those
two conflict, if the parents are mostly choosing one over the other
it's a good indication of which is most important, which is their
overriding philosophy.
It's not totally cut and dried. Just because I wouldn't have
sacrificed my life to allow Kathryn to unschool, doesn't mean I
shouldn't think of myself as a radical unschooler ;-) What's
important is that someone is making thoughtful choices.
But what's important *here* on this list, is helping people with the
parts of their life they're deliberately trying to make more
difficult by choosing to unschool. If someone decides their children
need to be vegetarian rather than explore their own interests in
food, the purpose of the list isn't to help them compromise
unschooling. They need to figure out how to mesh the two themselves.
Or on a vegetarian list since they're putting the vegetarian
philosophy above unschooling. The purpose of this list is to help
them put unschooling first and figure out how to fit the rest of life
in around it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value ratherGenerally speaking I'd say a philosophy is an ideal with a set of
> than a life philosophy?
values that support it. It's what someone turns to to help them
decide if an idea is right or wrong for them. It can apply to a part
of life, like a child's learning, or all of life. Generally I'd say a
philosophy is something you're willing to make your life more
difficult for in order to stick with it. How difficult someone is
willing to make their life depends. Some people are willing to die
for their philosophy. Or sacrifice their only son ;-)
Of the specific people I'm thinking of, natural living was definitely
a philosophy, if not a life philosophy. It formed the foundation of
their life choices. Organic food. Organic gardening. Composting. No
plastic. No commercial TV. I didn't get the feeling they'd die for it
though ;-)
Everyone also has a collection of values that shift in priority
depending on the situation that don't necessarily form a cohesive
whole. (And some *only* have a shifting collection.) It might be
labeled a personal philosophy though in my mind a personal philosophy
means someone has given the collection some thought. It's not just a
mish mosh with choices based on current mood ;-)
For instance I value being conservative with money, being green,
buying food with fewer chemicals. Which of those takes precedence
depends on the situation. May depend on whim. May depend on some
other value being more important (like saving time, for instance.)
> When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we areYes, that's what happens with a philosophy. :-) It can help people
> finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our
> dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling
> philosophy, but it's worth it.
>
see a bigger picture, feel like they have a goal.
> But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are movingI'm not entirely sure of what you're asking. But my guess would be it
> into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values?
> Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential
> conflicts?
>
depends where your priorities end up being. For instance if parents
value organic food and children exploring their interests, when those
two conflict, if the parents are mostly choosing one over the other
it's a good indication of which is most important, which is their
overriding philosophy.
It's not totally cut and dried. Just because I wouldn't have
sacrificed my life to allow Kathryn to unschool, doesn't mean I
shouldn't think of myself as a radical unschooler ;-) What's
important is that someone is making thoughtful choices.
But what's important *here* on this list, is helping people with the
parts of their life they're deliberately trying to make more
difficult by choosing to unschool. If someone decides their children
need to be vegetarian rather than explore their own interests in
food, the purpose of the list isn't to help them compromise
unschooling. They need to figure out how to mesh the two themselves.
Or on a vegetarian list since they're putting the vegetarian
philosophy above unschooling. The purpose of this list is to help
them put unschooling first and figure out how to fit the rest of life
in around it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather
than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up
against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.-=-
I think defining things as values or philosophies is more a part of
identifying with other people than of making decisions in one's own
life.
Because the phrase "natural living" is too vague to cover anyone's
entire life experience and needs, it's better as a magazine title or a
conference title than as a philosophy.
As a priority or a principle, it can be added on to anything. Making
the more natural choice can't always be practical, but having it on
the checklist as something to aim toward can be.
Holly and I had a discussion a week or two ago about adults going
barefooted, in the late 1960's, early '70's. Why? Because it was
different and because it was natural. Then we were watching Roots,
lately (first four episodes, and then Holly's out-of-town trip came)
and we talked about "afros" and natural long hair. Choosing things on
the basis of their being more "natural" (or "organic") was an
important part of the counter-culture '60's/hippie/health food larger
changes in 1969, give or take.
Being barefooted turned into the "Earth Shoe" company, which involved
the heel being lower than the ball of the foot. Those shoes weren't
"natural," but they were more natural than some other shoes.
Each person decides on shoes, food, clothes, housing (if they're
lucky), transportation, etc. Each parent has responsibilities to take
care of children, and choosing "natural" over children's needs and
desires could be a problem.
Flexibility and being analytical in each moment is better than
deciding which "belief system" to follow, in my experience.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up
against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.-=-
I think defining things as values or philosophies is more a part of
identifying with other people than of making decisions in one's own
life.
Because the phrase "natural living" is too vague to cover anyone's
entire life experience and needs, it's better as a magazine title or a
conference title than as a philosophy.
As a priority or a principle, it can be added on to anything. Making
the more natural choice can't always be practical, but having it on
the checklist as something to aim toward can be.
Holly and I had a discussion a week or two ago about adults going
barefooted, in the late 1960's, early '70's. Why? Because it was
different and because it was natural. Then we were watching Roots,
lately (first four episodes, and then Holly's out-of-town trip came)
and we talked about "afros" and natural long hair. Choosing things on
the basis of their being more "natural" (or "organic") was an
important part of the counter-culture '60's/hippie/health food larger
changes in 1969, give or take.
Being barefooted turned into the "Earth Shoe" company, which involved
the heel being lower than the ball of the foot. Those shoes weren't
"natural," but they were more natural than some other shoes.
Each person decides on shoes, food, clothes, housing (if they're
lucky), transportation, etc. Each parent has responsibilities to take
care of children, and choosing "natural" over children's needs and
desires could be a problem.
Flexibility and being analytical in each moment is better than
deciding which "belief system" to follow, in my experience.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.
In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). ***
This came up in a radical unschooling panel discussion at a local homeschooling conference. This comes up periodically on unschooling lists as well.
What it always comes down to is whether or not mom or dad's philosophy will override a child's. If a child really wants a juice box and a parent won't buy one because it creates waste to be disposed of, then mom's philosophy overrides a child's desire for a juice box.
When I remind myself of the HUGE amount of waste that happens in public schools, little throw away juice boxes seem like a small insignificant drop in the bucket. By unschooling, we ARE being mindful of waste. We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks that get used and then disposed of, nor do we kill millions of frogs for dissection.
The one thing I know without a doubt to be true... If a parent is a big fat jerk and they treat recyclables better than they do their own children, their children are very unlikely to value recycling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). ***
This came up in a radical unschooling panel discussion at a local homeschooling conference. This comes up periodically on unschooling lists as well.
What it always comes down to is whether or not mom or dad's philosophy will override a child's. If a child really wants a juice box and a parent won't buy one because it creates waste to be disposed of, then mom's philosophy overrides a child's desire for a juice box.
When I remind myself of the HUGE amount of waste that happens in public schools, little throw away juice boxes seem like a small insignificant drop in the bucket. By unschooling, we ARE being mindful of waste. We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks that get used and then disposed of, nor do we kill millions of frogs for dissection.
The one thing I know without a doubt to be true... If a parent is a big fat jerk and they treat recyclables better than they do their own children, their children are very unlikely to value recycling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of
paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad
infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks
that get used and then disposed of,...-=-
Keith is in a singing group. They don't meet at our house, but he's
the one who finds their music.
He had written up the words to a song, and made eight copies at work.
They decided to change the words. I offered to reformat that file and
print them here off my printer at home, but he said a couple of the
group members were adamant that it would be a waste of paper not to
make the changes by hand on each sheet.
I know all those singers. They're in their 40's and 50's, mostly;
childless; uptight.
I sent some other music with Keith that night, that we still have in a
file drawer from the late 1970's, before the days of freely-available
photocopying on plain paper. The music had been handwritten by me on
mimeograph masters and run off on inexpensive paper, and we still have
lots of that. So I sent that, told Keith to tell them I said that we
are NOT wasteful of paper, and it was better to learn from decent
copies. They laughed and agreed.
The arguments and defenses and negativities and assurances did more
damage to psyches and planet than a ream of paper just thrown in the
trash would have done. TOO much energy, over eight sheets of paper.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad
infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks
that get used and then disposed of,...-=-
Keith is in a singing group. They don't meet at our house, but he's
the one who finds their music.
He had written up the words to a song, and made eight copies at work.
They decided to change the words. I offered to reformat that file and
print them here off my printer at home, but he said a couple of the
group members were adamant that it would be a waste of paper not to
make the changes by hand on each sheet.
I know all those singers. They're in their 40's and 50's, mostly;
childless; uptight.
I sent some other music with Keith that night, that we still have in a
file drawer from the late 1970's, before the days of freely-available
photocopying on plain paper. The music had been handwritten by me on
mimeograph masters and run off on inexpensive paper, and we still have
lots of that. So I sent that, told Keith to tell them I said that we
are NOT wasteful of paper, and it was better to learn from decent
copies. They laughed and agreed.
The arguments and defenses and negativities and assurances did more
damage to psyches and planet than a ream of paper just thrown in the
trash would have done. TOO much energy, over eight sheets of paper.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
I wonder if the OP isn't talking about the book "Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting" by the Kabat-Zinns:
http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Blessings-Inner-Mindful-Parenting/dp/0786883146
If so, it might have been helpful to mention that.....
I read a few chapters of the book a few years ago and put it down for the same reason I never considered NVC a useful tool in relating to my daughter. Too much script! Too many things to think about that actually took me *away* from focusing on her in the moment.
Geesh. All this crap. I'm sorry, I'm in a foul mood.
Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids?
B
http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Blessings-Inner-Mindful-Parenting/dp/0786883146
If so, it might have been helpful to mention that.....
I read a few chapters of the book a few years ago and put it down for the same reason I never considered NVC a useful tool in relating to my daughter. Too much script! Too many things to think about that actually took me *away* from focusing on her in the moment.
Geesh. All this crap. I'm sorry, I'm in a foul mood.
Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids?
B
Sandra Dodd
-=-Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids?-=-
Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?
I trust myself to trust my kids pretty well, but some people don't,
and they like the discussion. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?
I trust myself to trust my kids pretty well, but some people don't,
and they like the discussion. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?-----
No, without having to add all kinds of other "isms" or "nessess" to the equation.
I realize my last post wasn't very generous, and I apologize. I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention!
The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.
All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves.
I'll shut up now and go to bed.
No, without having to add all kinds of other "isms" or "nessess" to the equation.
I realize my last post wasn't very generous, and I apologize. I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention!
The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.
All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves.
I'll shut up now and go to bed.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'll shut up now and go to bed.-=-
When you wake up, I hope you'll keep saying what you're saying.
-=I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for
me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying
attention to my daughter.-=-
I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running
around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
and right there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you wake up, I hope you'll keep saying what you're saying.
-=I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for
me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying
attention to my daughter.-=-
I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running
around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
and right there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mkangj
> I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, runningI agree with this. I have a magnet on my fridge that says, Trust Children. I got it from Jan Hunt's website - naturalchild.org. My original post had more to do with offering mindfulness (Buddhism) to children. In Los Angeles, specifically, Santa Monica where I live, they offer mindfulness classes to children starting at age 4. Currently, I am "studying" mindfulness's effect on adult brains. I am finding all the information I am finding regarding neuroplasticity fascinating and I can't help but wonder - would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulness to my daughter? Currently, we do yoga for kids at home. She loves pretending to be a frog and doing assisted handstands. That came about organically because we were walking by the yoga class and she wanted to go in. Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...
> around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
> happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
> ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
> children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
> and right there.
>
> Sandra
>
All the best,
M.J.
Joanna
-=-I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...
Which is not at all to say not to do science experiments--but just do them for the fun and enjoyment. That's what I'd go back and do, in this respect, if I had my boy four again. Although childhood is fleeting in one sense, there is also plenty of time for all of this stuff, and for our kids to come to stuff as they are ready. There will be so many thousands of conversations with your daughter by the time she is 14 in which you will discuss all sorts of things, including mindfulness when it actually has meaning for her as a practice. Before then, she'll be watching you--how you react, how you process your emotions, and I'll be that will have a much bigger internal impact on her than a class that is appealing to an intellect that isn't yet ready to incorporate these abstract thoughts.
Until kids are a certain age, we really aren't self-concious in a way necessary for mindfulness to have meaning. We just are. Our kids ARE having a direct experience with being present and in the moment. I think trying to impose a structure before there's substance to support it is, in essence, a waste of time and money.
-=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-
The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh, play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but that's A LOT. If a class helps do those things, and is MOSTLY about those things, then that could be a cool class. If not, then don't do it.
Joanna
>Part of why you're finding this difficult is that your daughter is only four! I remember having my oldest be four and thinking that I needed to expose him to everything now, now, now! My friend and I were just laughing about all the science experiments and things we did so that they would have all those things "under their belts"--and now they don't even remember them. We are doing science experiments now and what they are getting out of them is so very different I can't even tell you--now our boys are 14 and 15.
> All the best,
>
> M.J.-=-
>
Which is not at all to say not to do science experiments--but just do them for the fun and enjoyment. That's what I'd go back and do, in this respect, if I had my boy four again. Although childhood is fleeting in one sense, there is also plenty of time for all of this stuff, and for our kids to come to stuff as they are ready. There will be so many thousands of conversations with your daughter by the time she is 14 in which you will discuss all sorts of things, including mindfulness when it actually has meaning for her as a practice. Before then, she'll be watching you--how you react, how you process your emotions, and I'll be that will have a much bigger internal impact on her than a class that is appealing to an intellect that isn't yet ready to incorporate these abstract thoughts.
Until kids are a certain age, we really aren't self-concious in a way necessary for mindfulness to have meaning. We just are. Our kids ARE having a direct experience with being present and in the moment. I think trying to impose a structure before there's substance to support it is, in essence, a waste of time and money.
-=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-
The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh, play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but that's A LOT. If a class helps do those things, and is MOSTLY about those things, then that could be a cool class. If not, then don't do it.
Joanna
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/21/2010 6:11 PM, sheeboo2 wrote:
once and let the ideas flow around in my head and some influence me and
some don't. I don't adopt any of them as a way of life - I make up my
OWN way of life based on my own family. Some people, like Sandra, have
had a HUGE influence on how I think and behave, others have had none.
Some of these books I've read and philosophies I've taken a look at
might have added some idea to my overall way of thinking that I'm not
even aware of. The level of commitment some people seem to have to some
of these systems, or philosophies, or beliefs, or whatever you want to
call them, seems like the worst kind of religious belief, to me. They
think their chosen "system" has all the answers - everybody else's
system is lacking, and if only everybody would adopt their system there
would be heaven on earth.
Anyway, I agree that really looking and observing and considering our
own children is the most enlightening thing we can do. I look back and
think that what I did was dip into some philosophy or another and then
give it a reality check by thinking about it in relation to my own
family. I'd imagine how it would go over, what difference it would make,
and so on. And, sometimes, some part of it made sense and I very
naturally integrated it into our family life.
-pam
> The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how theirI read a lot of stuff - Kabbot-Zinn, NVC, and on and on. I read them
> message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing
> more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.
>
> All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the
> parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do
> too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or
> "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires
> little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves.
once and let the ideas flow around in my head and some influence me and
some don't. I don't adopt any of them as a way of life - I make up my
OWN way of life based on my own family. Some people, like Sandra, have
had a HUGE influence on how I think and behave, others have had none.
Some of these books I've read and philosophies I've taken a look at
might have added some idea to my overall way of thinking that I'm not
even aware of. The level of commitment some people seem to have to some
of these systems, or philosophies, or beliefs, or whatever you want to
call them, seems like the worst kind of religious belief, to me. They
think their chosen "system" has all the answers - everybody else's
system is lacking, and if only everybody would adopt their system there
would be heaven on earth.
Anyway, I agree that really looking and observing and considering our
own children is the most enlightening thing we can do. I look back and
think that what I did was dip into some philosophy or another and then
give it a reality check by thinking about it in relation to my own
family. I'd imagine how it would go over, what difference it would make,
and so on. And, sometimes, some part of it made sense and I very
naturally integrated it into our family life.
-pam
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:29 PM, mkangj wrote:
The huge difference between adults and kids is the adults feel a gap
and are choosing something that intrigues them to fill it with. WIth
kids it's an adult seeing what they believe is a gap and imposing on
the child something the adult finds intriguing. That's the purpose of
schools: to see weaknesses, imperfections, gaps and let experts fill
them.
If she enjoys yoga, and the classes are fun, do it because you think
she might have fun not because you want to improve an imperfection
(flabby brain potential).
Are the people in LA way more happy than the rest of the country
because they have all these programs to fill in gaps from a very
young age? Or is there perhaps more worry that they are so full of
gaps that experts have identified in people and they haven't found
the right programs to fix them?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulnessI wondered similar things when Kathryn was young.
> to my daughter?
The huge difference between adults and kids is the adults feel a gap
and are choosing something that intrigues them to fill it with. WIth
kids it's an adult seeing what they believe is a gap and imposing on
the child something the adult finds intriguing. That's the purpose of
schools: to see weaknesses, imperfections, gaps and let experts fill
them.
If she enjoys yoga, and the classes are fun, do it because you think
she might have fun not because you want to improve an imperfection
(flabby brain potential).
Are the people in LA way more happy than the rest of the country
because they have all these programs to fill in gaps from a very
young age? Or is there perhaps more worry that they are so full of
gaps that experts have identified in people and they haven't found
the right programs to fix them?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
sheeboo2
--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
sheeboo2
Ooops....typo. That should have read:
"Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen"
Although "beginnings" instead of "beings" is kinda cool in a poetic sort of way.......
"Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen"
Although "beginnings" instead of "beings" is kinda cool in a poetic sort of way.......
Sandra Dodd
-=--=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-
-=-The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh,
play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but
that's A LOT.-=-
YES!
Think of her as a tree, growing. A tree grows from the seed it was.
All the information for that future tree was in that seed. How would
you enhance a tree's growth and potential? Mostly by preventing
damage to it.
If your daughter grows up whole and safe and happy, maybe she won't
need to have her potential enhanced or repaired. If she grows up with
optimal peace, comfort and opportunity to see, touch, smell, taste and
hear, she can be her mindful self.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh,
play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but
that's A LOT.-=-
YES!
Think of her as a tree, growing. A tree grows from the seed it was.
All the information for that future tree was in that seed. How would
you enhance a tree's growth and potential? Mostly by preventing
damage to it.
If your daughter grows up whole and safe and happy, maybe she won't
need to have her potential enhanced or repaired. If she grows up with
optimal peace, comfort and opportunity to see, touch, smell, taste and
hear, she can be her mindful self.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
-=-Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests.-=-
I don't understand this statement. What we ARE "supposed" to do as unschoolers is to help our kids develop their deepest interests. Who is saying that that ISN'T what we're supposed to do--you, or someone that doesn't understand unschooling? That thought is at the very core of unschooling, so for "people" to say that means that they have completely missed the boat.
-=-I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" -=-
You've gone on as though the original premise is true--that we aren't supposed to help them... The whole point is to ALLOW for potential. That's why we find out what they are interested in instead of bringing our own agenda to their learning.
-=-we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)-=-
Right--but someone might be raising a potential scientist, artist, musician or car mechanic, because that is where their child's interests lay--and then they WOULD by trying to do that. There seem to be a lot of ethical limits in your thinking about unschooling.
-=-Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!-=-
I agree completely. The idea of teaching "mindfulness" to a child is a twisting and a complication of the point of the whole thing! The more I think about it, the more it bothers me--as if we adults have discovered some really great thing that can "improve" on childhood. I think I trust millions of years of evolution, thank you very much! Next there will be medications that help children to be more "mindful." Or a tea they can drink.
Joanna
I don't understand this statement. What we ARE "supposed" to do as unschoolers is to help our kids develop their deepest interests. Who is saying that that ISN'T what we're supposed to do--you, or someone that doesn't understand unschooling? That thought is at the very core of unschooling, so for "people" to say that means that they have completely missed the boat.
-=-I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" -=-
You've gone on as though the original premise is true--that we aren't supposed to help them... The whole point is to ALLOW for potential. That's why we find out what they are interested in instead of bringing our own agenda to their learning.
-=-we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)-=-
Right--but someone might be raising a potential scientist, artist, musician or car mechanic, because that is where their child's interests lay--and then they WOULD by trying to do that. There seem to be a lot of ethical limits in your thinking about unschooling.
-=-Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!-=-
I agree completely. The idea of teaching "mindfulness" to a child is a twisting and a complication of the point of the whole thing! The more I think about it, the more it bothers me--as if we adults have discovered some really great thing that can "improve" on childhood. I think I trust millions of years of evolution, thank you very much! Next there will be medications that help children to be more "mindful." Or a tea they can drink.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our
expectation
-=-If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then
we're on the wrong path.
-=-If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in
a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.-=-
That's too strongly stated for my tastes.
Sometimes people (children or adults) need specific information for a
particular purpose.
Some objects and information ARE for specific purposes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
expectation
-=-If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then
we're on the wrong path.
-=-If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in
a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.-=-
That's too strongly stated for my tastes.
Sometimes people (children or adults) need specific information for a
particular purpose.
Some objects and information ARE for specific purposes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]