zenmomma *

>>NOW, how strong would the medication have to be to make her HAPPY?????>>

Maybe she's not looking for happy. Maybe she's just looking for NOT
depressed. If she was already on medication and looking for a higher dose,
maybe all those difficult life circumstances were throwing her brain
chemicals out of whack again. It happens. Maybe she knows what it feels like
to be severly, clinically depressed and she does NOT want to let it get to
that point again. Maybe it's easier to ask the doctor for help now, rather
than after she's so depressed she can't even get out of bed, make dinner for
her kids, complete a focussed thought or stop picturing that gun pointed at
her head and feeling a sense of relief.

>>Let's face it, sometime life is hard and sad, and we need to feel that.>>

You're kidding right? Anti-depressants have nothing to do with not feeling.
They have eveything to do with being able to feel and process and react and
think. Telling a clinically depressed person to stop whining and deal with
life, is like telling a diabetic that they just need to deal with the
insulin problems. Their body will resolve its' sugar issues if they just
feel their way through it.

>>My input about it anyway.>>

And my personal experience right back at ya.

>>ps - I have dated a little since my divorce and each man (all three of
>>them)is on Prozac. Will I find someone that isn't??? I'm still
>>looking.>>

If that's your criteria for relationships (men and women apparently) you'd
probably do best to steer clear of me and my family.
Many in my bloodline are medicated. But at least we're not getting out the
noose like great-grandma.

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zenmomma *

>>I believe that certain chemical make ups or personality types are
>more prone to depression just like some people are more prone to
>becoming alcoholics.>>

Actually, these two go hand in hand. Alcohol can give a temporary fix for
those altered brain chemicals. Obviously it's not a good or healthy fix and
ultimately makes matters worse. But I believe the theory that many
alcoholics are self-medicating without knowing it.

>>*But* I think our childhood experiences play a large role in greatly
>>influencing all aspects of our lives. Not all people prone to being
>>alcoholics become alcoholics. Not all people prone to depression need to
>>take medication.>>

I'm not sure what would make you "prone" to either of these conditions. Do
you mean a family history? Personal weakness? I'm curious, not antagonistic
BTW. :o)

>>I really wish there would be a study done of the children whose
families followed an unschooling lifestyle and see if they grow up
with a lower than the normal population need for medication.>>

I was sure unschooling would make everything different for my kids.
Unfortunately it didn't. My son has struggled with depression, but not my
daughter. It would be interesting to hear of others' experiences.

>>My brother was severely depressed for years. He was really not
>functioning well even on Prozac. Ever since he overcame the total
>lack of self-esteem he was left with by my father he has been doing
>wonderfully. He finally found a job he was good at. It took him
>until he was 40 to be able to say to himself "I am a grown man".>>

That's so wonderful. Maybe we'll someday be able to figure out more
definitively who needs medication and who needs a better life situation or
whatever.

~Mary


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homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@h...> wrote:
>> >>*But* I think our childhood experiences play a large role in
greatly
> >>influencing all aspects of our lives. Not all people prone to
being
> >>alcoholics become alcoholics. Not all people prone to depression
need to
> >>take medication.>>
>
> I'm not sure what would make you "prone" to either of these
conditions. Do
> you mean a family history? Personal weakness? I'm curious, not
antagonistic
> BTW. :o)

I mean when someone, a parent, tells you you're worthless, or not
worth loving, or have controlled your life so much you get very
little pleasure out of your own life even after they are dead, you
would be more prone to depression.

Personal weakness is an interesting concept. Is there any such thing
as true personal weakness? I do believe that certain personalities
may be more persistant or strong willed and may be able to overcome
things that other personalities may have more difficulty with. I
don't know. People react differently given similar circumstances but
I would never say someone is personally weak.

Do you feel *most* depression is due to a physical cause as opposed
to an emotional cause?

Pat

I read recently that certain parenting styles made children more
prone to drug and alcohol abuse. This was from T. Berry Brazelton's
book "The Irreducible Needs of Children". Using fear as a method to
control kids was the method he was mentioning. I took this thought
one step further and figured that this would be more likely if the
person was already physically prone to these problems.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/25/02 8:00:03 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Personal weakness is an interesting concept. Is there any such thing
as true personal weakness? I do believe that certain personalities
may be more persistant or strong willed and may be able to overcome
things that other personalities may have more difficulty with. I
don't know. People react differently given similar circumstances but
I would never say someone is personally weak. >>

If there is such a thing as a strong personality, there must then be such a
thing as a weak one.

And "weak" is in the eye of the beholder. Something the military prizes
might be seen as weakness outside the military. Someone in a culture in
which women MUST be quiet and passive would last MUCH longer with the ability
to "be weak" than someone who couldn't shush and just do what her mother in
law said.

So I think it's relative and it's situational and IF it has to do with
personal nature, then it has to do with biochemistry.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:21:14 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> If there is such a thing as a strong personality, there must then be
> such a thing as a weak one.

I think of a strong personality as sort of the opposite of a wishy-washy
personality. What I think we're talking about here is what I'd call a
resilient personality, someone who can bounce back well. That's what I
hope unschooling gives Cacie, resiliency, because she doesn't come from
very resilient stock...
>

> So I think it's relative and it's situational and IF it has to do with

> personal nature, then it has to do with biochemistry.

I've read that repeated trauma can actually change your biochemistry.
When you're stressed, your body makes all sorts of hormones to help you
to fight, or flee, or something. If fighting and fleeing are maladaptive
or impossible, you still end up with all those stress hormones flying
around anyway, even though you're just sitting there trying to disappear.
You end up with chronically high levels of stress hormones, you're
hypervigilant, and there's no release... and here I get fuzzy on the
whole thing, but someone you ended up with low serotonin levels.

I would think repeated stress as an adult could have the same effect, to
some degree.

I have a familial history of depression, but the same family member has a
history of abusing and being abused, so there's the chicken and egg
thing. I hate pills but I take antidepressants anyway, because I don't
think it's fair to Cacie to have to deal with me crying and grumping just
because I hate pills. I don't take them all the time, but I can tell when
I need them. I can't really make myself take them just because they make
me feel better, but I'm getting there. I also quit smoking and making
myself throw up when I was pregnant, because that wasn't fair to Cacie
either...

Actually, I still have trouble taking those stupid pills regularly, and I
have no insurance so I'm taking SJW, which kinda works... it doesn't
totally get rid of the depression but it doesn't get rid of the rest of
my feelings either, which the other ones do.

Dar, babbling away...
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zenmomma *

>>I mean when someone, a parent, tells you you're worthless, or not
>worth loving, or have controlled your life so much you get very
>little pleasure out of your own life even after they are dead, you
>would be more prone to depression.>>

Hmmm...Maybe that scenario would make someone more prone to self destructive
behaviors, liking drinking and drugs and such. Things to numb the obvious
pain being inflicted. Or the behavior of isolating oneself from people
because past experiences were so bad. Those destructive behaviors might then
lead to the physical factors that alter brain chemistry. The altered brain
chemistry causes true clinical depression IMO.

>>Do you feel *most* depression is due to a physical cause as opposed
to an emotional cause?>>

I do. Of course, my study sample size is very small-me and mine. ;-) But
based on my family history of depression, bi-polar, drug and alchohol abuse,
I really believe there's a genetic link and a physical cause.

For me, the physical symptoms of depression were as bad or worse than what
people think of as the "sad/emotional" symptoms. I physically could not get
out of bed in the morning. I felt like I had been hit by a truck. At the
worst part of it, I felt like I was underwater just trying to get to the
surface for a breath. It was physical. For me, the anti-depressants started
helping in 3 days. The link was undeniable. Once I was stable on the
medication, I could see where my thinking patterns had been going so
terribly wrong. I never could have solved the "emotional" part of it without
having the brain balance to look at it all clearly.

>>Personal weakness is an interesting concept. Is there any such thing as
>>true personal weakness?>>

I don't really think so. At least I wouldn't label it as such. But I guess
some people do react more forcefully and others more tepidly. The phrase
personal weakness has been used for ages when talking about alcoholism. I
see it coming out again these days when people start talking about
depression. The idea that life is sad and we need to learn to live with it,
or at least accept it. That is true, but that doesn't mean a depressed
person is physically capable of doing it.

I have experienced both alcoholism and depression personally. I quit
drinking cold turkey the moment I found out I was pregnant. Is that a
personal strength? I never thought so. I lingered for quite awhile in a
horribly depressed state. Is that personal weakness? I don't believe that
either.

I acknowledge that some people like to hover on the edge with being down and
moody. An attention getting device for emotional reasons? Maybe. That's
different from what I'm talking about.

~Mary

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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/02 9:23:21 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< Hmmm...Maybe that scenario would make someone more prone to self
destructive
behaviors, liking drinking and drugs and such. Things to numb the obvious
pain being inflicted. Or the behavior of isolating oneself from people
because past experiences were so bad. Those destructive behaviors might then
lead to the physical factors that alter brain chemistry. The altered brain
chemistry causes true clinical depression IMO. >>

People can be depressed without having used alcohol and drugs.

<<I acknowledge that some people like to hover on the edge with being down
and
moody. An attention getting device for emotional reasons? Maybe. That's
different from what I'm talking about.>>

Some people love the feel of adrenaline, so they bungie-jump and ride roller
coasters and drive too fast. I do NOT like the feel of adrenaline. Any
biochemical "cocktail" can feel good to someone or other. Some people are
sadistic. Some are masochistic. So I don't doubt there are people who enjoy
the feeling of sadness and despair. There's plenty of music, poetry and art
for them to use to trigger that feeling when they want it.

Some people like to get drunk and goofy.

IF a person is drinking for fun, but he has within him whatever-it-is that
craves alcohol to the point of addiction and family abandonment, he needs to
NOT drink for fun. I can drink for fun, and I don't want alcohol the next
day. But there are some friends of mine who have chosen not to drink at all,
and it would be low and mean of me to invite them to drink.

I have friends who are prone to depression. I am too, myself. And so it is
NOT a good idea for those friends to discuss (for fun) death, or to watch
really sad movies, or listen to really sad music, because there can be
emotional triggers for depression.

If I find out an alcoholism-prone friend (or former-practicing-alcoholic
friend) has gotten drunk, it's something for me to visit with them about, or
to check in on them about, to make sure they came through okay and haven't
started drinking a lot again.

If a friend who's prone to depression has a death in the family or other
serious jolt to equilibrium, I will MUCH more quickly attend to cheering them
up than if it had been a friend who can bob on the surface of emotional
trauma.

Sandra

[email protected]

My dad was depressed. He had a terrible childhood and served as a medic
in the war. He spent some time in the state mental hospital after trying
to kill my mom, but was never medicated.
He became very depressed after learning he had cancer. A year later when
they told him it had metastasized to bone cancer and he only had six
months to live he became a different person. He got nice.
I never liked my dad when I was growing up, but as an adult, and
especially the last eight years of his life, we had a wonderful
relationship. I get my dad now and I didn't when I was younger. He did
his very best and I have to admire that, even if his best left a lot to
be desired. He lived eight years after his six month sentence, and I can
only guess it was due in part to the remarkable change that took place in
him when he looked at what was left of his life and wanted it to be more
than it had been.
Medication might have given my dad and the rest of us a better life,
we'll never know.
He held an alcoholic brother together as long as possible and took care
of his sister in law. He was with his sister in her battle with bone
cancer and at the end. He stayed and supported his kids even though he
didn't want to and a lot of guys bail on that one. He supported extra
kids when they ended up with us, and endless stray critters.
I saw all the bad things about my dad growing up, but I'm happy to say
the good I came to see in him in my adult life is replacing the bad.
Mostly I just feel sorry for him, that he wasted so much time on misery.
But it's been a good lesson to his children, who now tend to "bob on
the surface of emotional trauma" and slide deeply into the joyous.

Deb L

zenmomma *

>>People can be depressed without having used alcohol and drugs.>>

Absolutely. I was using that as one example of a depression/brain chemistry
trigger. I also mentioned someone isolating themself. For some, alone time
is nourishing, for others it's isolating and painful. Trauma, death,
divorce, etc. can all be triggers IMO. I think the part that makes people
"prone" to depression starts with a genetic predisposition for your brain
chemicals getting out of whack. Although not every depressed person has a
history of drugs and alcohol, there seems to be a pretty strong correlation
between the two.

>>So I don't doubt there are people who enjoy the feeling of sadness and
>>despair.>>

I don't know---enjoy? Maybe they're drawn to it. I don't know if that's the
same as enjoying it exactly. I could be wrong obviously.

>>Some people like to get drunk and goofy.>>

I used to love getting drunk and goofy. It evolved into something else
pretty quickly.

>>IF a person is drinking for fun, but he has within him whatever-it-is that
>>craves alcohol to the point of addiction and family abandonment, he needs
>>to NOT drink for fun. >>

I never knew I had it within me until it happened. I have lots of
discussions with my kids about it though. I think it helps that we're more
open about it, and recognize family patterns and genetic predispositions,
than in the past.

>>I can drink for fun, and I don't want alcohol the next day.>>

So can my husband, my parents, one sister and one brother. My grandmother,
an aunt, an uncle, three brothers and I can not. Lots of the ones who
weren't alcoholics were still hit with pretty severe depression though. I'm
not sure where that leaves my kids. I have told them they need to be much
more aware than most. They need to realize the extra risks they are taking
by even dabbling with mood enhancing substances. They'll need to be extra
vigilant during times of stress to watch for depression. (This was done on
an age appropriate level BTW.)

I agree with everything you said about caring and helping and watching out
for friends who might have problems with alcohol, drugs or depression. We
need our friends.

~Mary


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/2002 4:40:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I was sure unschooling would make everything different for my kids.
> Unfortunately it didn't. My son has struggled with depression, but not my
> daughter. It would be interesting to hear of others' experiences.

I know a number of depressed unschooled teenagers. Please don't think that
unschooling or homeschooling is a cure-all or prevent-all. I have no way of
knowing if there is a greater or lesser rate of depression among the
unschooled teens versus schooled teens, but I do think sometimes that the
unschooled kids feel a lot of pressure/weight on themselves when they get to
be 17 to 19 or so. Giving them responsibility for their own learning is
empowering and they are wonderful wonderful kids - but many also suffer from
a lot of depression and anxiety at that age. They have MUCH bigger dreams and
ambitions than most schooled kids. They don't think, for example, of just
going to college and getting a job. NOT FOR THEM!!!! They have huge ideals -
they want to feel fully fulfilled by what they are doing and they often want
every moment of their lives to be filled with pure BLISS!!! Becoming an adult
can be really hard for them. They really want independence- they place a
super high value on taking care of themselves and do not want to feel
dependent at all. And sometimes this means getting a job to be able to afford
a car and apartment, etc. They DO struggle, sometimes, with schedules - with
committment to regular work or study -- not being able to be totally free sp
irits. They struggle with working in places where they see inefficiency and
lack of creativity - it is much harder for them than for kids who are used to
it in school. AND - most of all - the reality that their big dreams are going
to take long, hard and often tedious work, begins to really hit them around
17 or so and that can feel really discouraging to kids who have been so well
supported in achieving their dreams all their lives.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/02 10:40:40 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< I agree with everything you said about caring and helping and watching out
for friends who might have problems with alcohol, drugs or depression. We
need our friends. >>

My sister just left her husband of 23 years. Many people were stunned. My
sister has never been prone to depression at all. But she used to drink, and
she used to do cocaine.

When I first heard (accidently saw an IM between my niece and a friend of
Kirby's who knows her well, which was left on my desktop when the kids went
to sleep), I wondered right away whether one of them had started drinking or
doing drugs and the other had said "I'm outahere."

It wasn't that. Still, each is in renewed danger now of self-medicating, or
finding some new friends who won't know they REALLY need to not use drugs or
drink. Really. And the kids, all teens, are unknowns as to the risk of
depression, because their lives have been idyllic in large part. I don't
know what a big shock like this will do. They're left with their dad in the
big house, and my sister has moved out with their karate teacher. Yeeeps!

yeeeeeeeeeeps.

Sandra

It turned out not to be the case, and I was first surprised, but hugely
relieved.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/02 11:04:35 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:

<< They have MUCH bigger dreams and
ambitions than most schooled kids. They don't think, for example, of just
going to college and getting a job. NOT FOR THEM!!!! >>

I see that in Pam's two older kids, but I don't see it in mine. I think
Kirby would be happy to be put on full time at the gaming shop, take a few
classes at the university, and share an apartment with other gaming geeks. I
also think he might end up doing better than that, but I'm pretty happy with
the idea that it seems that would make him feel fulfilled.

Marty, I don't know. He seems happy with whatever, so maybe that will extend
to job and goal and all too. He's great at saving money, and great at just
not wanting much. So is his dad, and I think it's hugely genetic.

But when I see Kirby go under the surface sometimes a bit, I think being here
with me is safer and sweeter than if he were at school with people who could
easily make him more depressed, more frustrated, and give him something to
focus his dark squint on. We see it early and jolly him up in various ways,
including tipping his friends off. So far so good. And since he was little
we've talked about small tips to be calm.

It seems in me, that if I catch those first feelings of a catch in the
biochemistry, of the up and down of adrenaline, fear, despair, that I can
consciously ward it off. But if I'm too busy or it's overwhelming, I can get
to the point that I need counseling and Prozac. It's happened three times
now, over 15 years. The longest I was on Prozac was 18 months. That
followed the near-total shutdown with daily, hourly death wishes.

I think the first time it happens to someone they think life is done and gone
(and sometimes that comes true). But each time you pull back out (however
that happens) it increases the knowledge that it's possible to pull back out.
And knowing what it feels like coming on and what it feels like as it's
lifting helps the person to be able to manage, avoid, increase--whatever it
takes--their own physical reactions to some extent.

Sandra

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

Oh Deb, thankyou for telling that. I LOVE redemption
stories. And I love forgiveness stories.

Which war?

Sharon of the Swamp
--- ddzimlew@... wrote:
> My dad was depressed. He had a terrible childhood
> and served as a medic
> in the war. He spent some time in the state mental
> hospital after trying
> to kill my mom, but was never medicated.
> He became very depressed after learning he had
> cancer. A year later when
> they told him it had metastasized to bone cancer and
> he only had six
> months to live he became a different person. He
> got nice.
> I never liked my dad when I was growing up, but as
> an adult, and
> especially the last eight years of his life, we had
> a wonderful
> relationship. I get my dad now and I didn't when I
> was younger. He did
> his very best and I have to admire that, even if his
> best left a lot to
> be desired. He lived eight years after his six
> month sentence, and I can
> only guess it was due in part to the remarkable
> change that took place in
> him when he looked at what was left of his life and
> wanted it to be more
> than it had been.
> Medication might have given my dad and the rest of
> us a better life,
> we'll never know.
> He held an alcoholic brother together as long as
> possible and took care
> of his sister in law. He was with his sister in her
> battle with bone
> cancer and at the end. He stayed and supported his
> kids even though he
> didn't want to and a lot of guys bail on that one.
> He supported extra
> kids when they ended up with us, and endless stray
> critters.
> I saw all the bad things about my dad growing up,
> but I'm happy to say
> the good I came to see in him in my adult life is
> replacing the bad.
> Mostly I just feel sorry for him, that he wasted so
> much time on misery.
> But it's been a good lesson to his children, who
> now tend to "bob on
> the surface of emotional trauma" and slide deeply
> into the joyous.
>
> Deb L
>


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> Which war?

WWII He was twenty. He looks so young in those pictures. He was in
Japan during the occupation later and made life long friends with a
Japanese prisoner there. They exchanged photos and letters for years.
My dad wouldn't talk about his experiences in the war much, but he did
write a few things in a little book for Dylan. He died a year ago last
November and I still cry when I read that little book. Such a wimp!

Deb L

[email protected]

<<I think the first time it happens to someone they think life is done
and gone
(and sometimes that comes true). But each time you pull back out
(however
that happens) it increases the knowledge that it's possible to pull back
out.
And knowing what it feels like coming on and what it feels like as it's
lifting helps the person to be able to manage, avoid, increase--whatever
it
takes--their own physical reactions to some extent.

Sandra>>

This has been true for me. I have had 3 episodes of overwhelming anxiety
and depression and I the first one had me thinking it would never end.
When the third one occurred I knew that it would which made it shorter
and manageable.

I have since begun using Celexa to boost my seratonin and I'm seeing much
improvement. Medication combined with management skills learned over the
years not only help me function but even make life more fun.

I wish I had not been so resistant to the idea of medication for so long.

Kris
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